PDA

View Full Version : P312** (the real deal) (P312+ U152- L21- DF27- DF19- L238- DF99-)



GoldenHind
07-21-2013, 07:27 PM
I thought it would be helpful for those few of us who are interested to have a thread which relates to the L238 subclade and the P312** (negative for L21,U152,DF27,DF19,L238) paragroup. There are various threads for the other more numerous P312 subclades, but these two groups, probably because they are both small in number, are generally neglected. I have been keeping a close eye on both groups, and there are some new developments worthy of reporting. I also have reason to hope that some new SNPs under P312 will be publicly identified in the not too distant future, and that the process of breaking down P312** into new subclades will finally begin.

GoldenHind
07-21-2013, 10:53 PM
When the P312** group was still quite small, there were some who tried to argue, rather unconvincingly I thought, that they all shared a common origin and subclade. The list has now grown to about 35, and their origins and STR patterns are quite diverse. I have no doubt that the group includes several different subclades with quite distinct distributions and presumably histories.

I have looked through this group trying to find patterns of off modal marker values based on the methods of Ken Nordtvedt, who so succesfully identified many different R1b varities, most of which have since been connected with distinguishing SNPs. I don't pretend to have his abilities, and a database of 35 makes the process much easier than the amount of data he had to deal with.

While I have found other possibilities, there is one variety I feel very confident about. Five different people on the P312** list share a number of nine different off modal values. All have English or Welsh surnames. A further investigation showed a similar pattern to be present in a number of different surnames in the Wales-Cymru DNA project (see Ysearch DB3PX). At first I thought there were two different groups which shared a common origin, one English and one Welsh. Now however I have found someone with a Welsh surname who matches all nine off modals exactly. He has already tested negative for L21, U152 and DF19 (I think it is fairly safe to rule out L238 in this case). He now has a DF27 test pending, and I have no doubt he will be negative for that as well, which will add him to the P312** list.

The nine off modals in question are:
392 = 14 (this value seems to be universal in this variety)
449 > 29
464c = 16
464d = 18
456 < 16
447 = 24
442 = 11
444 = 11
390 = 23 (especially common in the Welsh surname group- most of the English surnames have the modal 24 there)

392 = 14 by itself is rare in R1b, being found in less than 10% of examples. I do not suggest than anyone who has that value is likely to be part of this group. However I think anyone who has four or five of the above off modals is quite likely to be part of this variety, especially if they have a Welsh or English origin.

Because of the predominant connection with Welsh and English surnames, it is tempting to assign a Brythonic origin for this variety. However I cannot rule out that it is also found on the continent, so like L21, this may be a group that originated on the continent and migrated to and expanded in Britain. I have yet to find an Irish or Scottish example, but they may exist.

GoldenHind
07-23-2013, 11:36 PM
I mentioned this sometime ago on the molgen forum, but it may be worth repeating here.

One of the first things I noticed about the P312** list is the very high frequency who have the otherwise rare 389i = 12. This occurs in less than 5% of R1b. With 34 on the P312** list, one should expect to see only one or two with that value. Instead it appears in 15 of the 34, or 44%. I do not believe this is merely due to coincidence. While I don't see a great deal in common otherwise between all those with that rare value, my suspicion is that there is one or more unidentified subclades within P312** where 389i = 12 is common if not modal.

Of these 15 with 389i =12, nearly half (7) also have 391 = 10. What the latter value isn't that rare by itself, the combination of those two off modals certainly is extremely rare, and it is far more common in the P312** list than one would expect from random chance. I don't think two off modals are sufficient to identify a variety, and this combination does appear in other P312 subclades, but I believe it is worth keeping an eye on.

Of the seven with those two values, I have identified three who share a total of seven different off modals. I have additionally found several others who closely match this same pattern, and none of them have terminal SNPs beyond P312. I am keeping this one under my hat for the present.

R. Walker
07-25-2013, 01:16 AM
Is my brother on your list? He is: U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- DF27- DF19-.

We haven't tested for anything else so far, just waiting for more direction, watching to see how things go.
He is Kit # N47555, Penna.
Thanks for starting this Golden Hind.

Rathna
07-25-2013, 04:55 AM
Is my brother on your list? He is: U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- DF27- DF19-.

We haven't tested for anything else so far, just waiting for more direction, watching to see how things go.
He is Kit # N47555, Penna.
Thanks for starting this Golden Hind.

For Morley 2013 Penna (Italian) is the unique so far certain P312**. The others "may belong to one of the non-Geno-tested sister clades" (p. 3)


R1b1a2a1a1–1 PF856 R (1/1)
1419 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1N24262
1420 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1R1b1a2a1a2 P312/S116 (192/525)
1421
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
104079?, 134765?, 180710?, 191094?, 197578?, 252516?, 26157?, 266463?, 27064?, 272715?, 49328?, B3275?, N10903?, N24210?, N47555, N94556?

GoldenHind
07-25-2013, 07:15 PM
Is my brother on your list? He is: U152- U106- SRY2627- P66- M65- M37- M222- M153- L21- DF27- DF19-.

We haven't tested for anything else so far, just waiting for more direction, watching to see how things go.
He is Kit # N47555, Penna.
Thanks for starting this Golden Hind.

Penna is one of the seven on the P312** list who share 389i=12 and and 391=10. This is a fairly diverse group, as it includes a Russian as well as the Italian, though the rest all appear to be English. I have not been able to find a further STR connection between Penna and the others.

I am unable to say at this point whether this group will all share a common SNP, or that such a subclade would be limited to those who have that signature. If this is a genuine variety, it must be a very old one. Perhaps Gioello could tell us how many of the Italians he refers to have the same signature, and where in Italy they come from.

There really isn't any further testing you can do at the moment. There are a couple of things in progress which I am confident will provide us with some new SNPs below P312 and which will begin the process of dividing those who are currently P312** into new subclades. Unfortunately I can't predict how long either will take. All I can advise at the moment is patience.

Rathna
07-25-2013, 08:24 PM
Perhaps Gioello could tell us how many of the Italians he refers to have the same signature, and where in Italy they come from.


On Morley spreadsheet (all automated and due to the Geno 2.0 results) it seems that the P312** are more than 7 (104079?, 134765?, 180710?, 191094?, 197578?, 252516?, 26157?, 266463?, 27064?, 272715?, 49328?, B3275?, N10903?, N24210?, N47555, N94556?) even though the others beyond Penna (N47555) "may belong to one of the non-Geno-tested sister clades" (p. 3).
I remember that I spoke with Walker many years ago, perhaps at the time of Rootsweb (2007) or DNAforum (2008), when he thought that Penna was a Spanish surname, actually that is Pena with the tilde on n.
Penna comes from Liguria and for what I know only two Italian R-P312* has been tested so far for subclades: one is DF27- and the other DF27+. 50% of DF27- would be a very high percentage and in line with my theory of the Italian Refugium. The few other Italian P312 I know have a different haplotype as to Penna, but this does mean a little, because markers values change forwards and backwards, but only SNPs remain.

P.S. It seems that the highest percentage of P312 in Italy is in North East.

GoldenHind
07-25-2013, 10:29 PM
On Morley spreadsheet (all automated and due to the Geno 2.0 results) it seems that the P312** are more than 7 (104079?, 134765?, 180710?, 191094?, 197578?, 252516?, 26157?, 266463?, 27064?, 272715?, 49328?, B3275?, N10903?, N24210?, N47555, N94556?) even though the others beyond Penna (N47555) "may belong to one of the non-Geno-tested sister clades" (p. 3).
I remember that I spoke with Walker many years ago, perhaps at the time of Rootsweb (2007) or DNAforum (2008), when he thought that Penna was a Spanish surname, actually that is Pena with the tilde on n.
Penna comes from Liguria and for what I know only two Italian R-P312* has been tested so far for subclades: one is DF27- and the other DF27+. 50% of DF27- would be a very high percentage and in line with my theory of the Italian Refugium. The few other Italian P312 I know have a different haplotype as to Penna, but this does mean a little, because markers values change forwards and backwards, but only SNPs remain.

P.S. It seems that the highest percentage of P312 in Italy is in North East.

I think it is very unlikely that Penna is actually of Spanish origin. Of the many of Iberian origin who have tested, not a single one is P312**. They are overwhelmingly DF27+. The only person on the P312** list who appears to have a Spanish origin says his ancestor was actually a Flemish merchant who settled in Spain in the 17th century. I wouldn't say an Iberian P312** is impossible, but if they exist, they are rarer than hen's teeth.

Rathna
07-26-2013, 07:59 AM
I think it is very unlikely that Penna is actually of Spanish origin. Of the many of Iberian origin who have tested, not a single one is P312**. They are overwhelmingly DF27+. The only person on the P312** list who appears to have a Spanish origin says his ancestor was actually a Flemish merchant who settled in Spain in the 17th century. I wouldn't say an Iberian P312** is impossible, but if they exist, they are rarer than hen's teeth.

And this could demonstrate that Iberia isn't at the origin of this haplogroup, but it has many R-V88+ etc.
Probably these rare haplogroups have survived only in a few places, which couldn't be those of origin: see R-L11, I think born in Italy but so rare to-day and probably the few present have come back with Langobards, or even U106, rare in Italy and returned with German peoples, but in these case some rare ancient haplotypes may be survived and this is a witness of their ancient presence.

GoldenHind
07-27-2013, 12:56 AM
On Morley spreadsheet (all automated and due to the Geno 2.0 results) it seems that the P312** are more than 7 (104079?, 134765?, 180710?, 191094?, 197578?, 252516?, 26157?, 266463?, 27064?, 272715?, 49328?, B3275?, N10903?, N24210?, N47555, N94556?) even though the others beyond Penna (N47555) "may belong to one of the non-Geno-tested sister clades" (p. 3).


When I first looked at your list, I thought this was a list of people of Italian ancestry who are potentially P312** (negative for all currently identified subclades below P312). Now I realize this is just a list of people of any ancestry who did Geno 2 and whose results did not show a subclade beyond P312. I am pretty sure DF27 wasn't included in Geno 2, so many of those on your list might well test positive for that subclade.

The P312 and subclades project lists 34 people who are confirmed P312** by SNP testing. Very few of them did Geno 2. What I was pointing out was that 7 of the 34 P312** individuals have the otherwise rare 391=10 and 389i=12 signature. This is far more than one would expect due to random chance, and suggests at least a possibility that the seven may share an as yet unidentified SNP below P312. Yes, STRs are subject to mutation. But Nordtvedt demonstrated that it is possible to identify likely varities by looking for shared off modal values.

Those currently classified P312** do not represent an older form of P312. They just are part of comparatively rare subclades that haven't been publicly identified yet. There is no reason to suppose that whatever their defining SNP may turn out to be, it will be older than any of the other SNPs below P312, such as L21, U152, DF27 etc. It is highly unlikely that any lineage survives which never had another SNP during the several thousand years since the birth of P312.

R. Walker
07-28-2013, 04:06 AM
Thanks, Rathna and GoldenHind for your input. I think because we are recent immigrants from Europe with ancestors who lived a very long time in in their little mountain communities, that we probably are a relict. Unfortunately our branch of R P312** will die out with this generation, as neither of my brothers have had sons, and our cousin, our father's nephew, had no sons either. The family in Italy, (grandpa's brother) had no sons either. I haven't been able to go back any further.
As far as the Spanish question, ironically I have a large "Iberian" segment on one of my X chromosomes, which I assume is from my father. The other X is all "Northern Euro" but this is on the speculative mode. Still no definitive answer on that old family legend. But I doubt any recent Iberian as we have little to no Iberian or Spanish name matches on 23andMe or FTDNA FF.

So, we'll wait and watch for more developments.

GoldenHind
08-03-2013, 12:26 AM
Five different people on the P312** list share a number of nine different off modal values. All have English or Welsh surnames. A further investigation showed a similar pattern to be present in a number of different surnames in the Wales-Cymru DNA project (see Ysearch DB3PX). At first I thought there were two different groups which shared a common origin, one English and one Welsh. Now however I have found someone with a Welsh surname who matches all nine off modals exactly. He has already tested negative for L21, U152 and DF19 (I think it is fairly safe to rule out L238 in this case). He now has a DF27 test pending, and I have no doubt he will be negative for that as well, which will add him to the P312** list.

The nine off modals in question are:
392 = 14 (this value seems to be universal in this variety)
449 > 29
464c = 16
464d = 18
456 < 16
447 = 24
442 = 11
444 = 11
390 = 23 (especially common in the Welsh surname group- most of the English surnames have the modal 24 there)

392 = 14 by itself is rare in R1b, being found in less than 10% of examples. I do not suggest than anyone who has that value is likely to be part of this group. However I think anyone who has four or five of the above off modals is quite likely to be part of this variety, especially if they have a Welsh or English origin.



The person with the Welsh surname I mentioned above has tested DF27- as I predicted, and should now be added to the P312** list.

TigerMW
09-26-2013, 04:53 AM
With the advent of DF99, do we think there is such a thing as P312** any more?

We know Goldenhind is DF99+ so if I remove his cluster, here is what I have left.

f29073 Fimbres P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa-56511-F Spain

fN47555 Penna P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas Italy, Liguria, Savona, Murialdo

f38806 Clayborne P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas England
f131410 Ireland P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas England, North West, Lancashire, Halebank
f92633 Crosby P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, South West, Bristol
f30483 Hinds P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England
f104079 Keyes P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England
f51865 McFarlane P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, London, Middlesex, Islington
f160082 Reader P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift
f208664 Hewitt P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa-53711-H UK

f10042 Elder P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p-1915-A Scotland, Tayside, Perthshire

f28000 Meek P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214 Ireland, Ulster, Co. Antrim, Ahoghill
nd, East, Bedfordshire, Riseley
f166446 Armstrong P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-53711-A Ireland
f10272 Fisher P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas Ireland

f21572 Ellis P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-59411-A Wales, Mid, Merionethshire in Gwynedd, Bala

f22627 Rowley P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-59411-A zzzUnkOrigin
f39244 Overton P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f119719 Williams P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- L147.3- pa-39214 zzzUnkOrigin
f213295 Gibson P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
f34748 Jenkins P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
f266463 Rice P312+ DF27- U152- L21- DF19- Z290- pa-39214-A zzzUnkOrigin
f146435 Cochee P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f87730 Woodruff P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- p-1012 zzzUnkOrigin

GoldenHind
09-26-2013, 04:14 PM
With the advent of DF99, do we think there is such a thing as P312** any more?

We know Goldenhind is DF99+ so if I remove his cluster, here is what I have left.


That is the burning question. I am the only DF99 with available STR results, but I have so many off modals it is difficult to predict which, if any, of them will be indicative of DF99.

Reader above does fall within a very small cluster that shares a number of slow mutating off modals with me. i will be very surprised if this group does not test DF99.

Beyond that, I think your 10/12 [390=10, 389i=12] cluster has a better than 50/50 chance of being DF99.

After that, one can only guess. DF99 may well be old enough that it has no off modal values different from those of P312, in which case anyone and even everyone on the P312** list could be DF99. I don't think we will make much progress on the question until FTDNA offers it. There are some vague promises reported elsewhere on this forum that the company plans to continue with testing new SNPs, but nothing concrete as yet.

R.Rocca
09-26-2013, 05:44 PM
All of the the former P312** in the 1KG project have gone away except for two that have no-calls at DF27 - one from Iberia and the other from Puerto Rico. They are both likely to be DF27 however as they share some SNPs with other known DF27 samples.

Telfermagne
09-27-2013, 01:26 AM
f160082 Reader P312+ M65- DF27- U152- L21- DF19- L238- pa- uas England, Yorkshire and Humber, North Humberside, Whitgift


I probably should update my earliest known ancestor and earliest known Old World location. Lookin' at a Henry Reader (Henricus filius Henrici Reder) of Swillington-in-Elment which is 3.6 miles away from Whitkirk (current location listed at FTDNA, associated with Robert Reader I - christened 1643 St Mary's, father stated as Henry Reader). This area in general was a boundary region and changed hands frequently. Did a general STR gd comparison between myself and the P312** group:

Velyaminov of Moscow, Russia 61 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - seems to be missing from the group now?
Hatton of Nottinghamshire, England 48 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - confirmed DF99+.
McFarlane of Islington, England 48 out of 47
Keyes of unspecified region in England 48 out of 47
Overton origin beyond Western European unk 48 out of 67
Flaidd of Penllyn, Wales 47 out of 67
Penna of Savona, Italy 47 out of 67
Fisher origin beyond Western European unk 47 out of 67
Ellis of Bala, Wales 46 out of 67
Elder of Perth, Scotland 46 out of 67
Williams origin beyond Western European unk 46 out of 67
Williams origin beyond Western European unk 46 out of 67
Fimbres of Sonora, Mexico 46 out of 67
Fimbres of Liege, Belgium 45 out of 67
Meek of County Antrim, Northern Ireland 44 out of 67
Livingston of Isle of Mull, Scotland 44 out of 67
Rice origin beyond Western European unk 44 out of 67
Ireland of Lancashire, England 43 out of 67
Crosby of Bristol, England 43 out of 67
Rowley origin beyond Western European unk 43 out of 67
Armstrong of Bedfordshire, England 43 out of 67
Armstrong of unspecified region in Ireland 42 out of 67
Gibson origin beyond Western European unk 42 out of 67
Flowers origin beyond Western European unk 42 out of 67
Cochee 41 out of 67
Hewitt origin beyond Western European unk 41 out of 67
Jenkins origin beyond Western European unk 40 out of 67
Gordon of County Down, Northern Ireland 40 out of 67
Hinds origin beyond Western European unk 37 out of 67
Clayborne origin beyond Western European unk 37 out of 67
Kirkpatrick of County Donegal, Ireland 37 out of 67

TigerMW
09-27-2013, 02:07 AM
..This area in general was a boundary region and changed hands frequently. Did a general STR gd comparison between myself and the P312** group:

Velyaminov of Moscow, Russia 61 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - seems to be missing from the group now?
Hatton of Nottinghamshire, England 48 out of 76 (FTDNA + SMGF) - confirmed DF99+.
....
Thanks, Telfermagne.

I think Velyaminov matches the same STR cluster with Hatton so I think he is DF99+ as well. That's speculative but that is why he is not on the list.

I suspect there might be other DF99+ clusters in the list but we won't know until they are tested.

TigerMW
09-27-2013, 02:10 AM
All of the the former P312** in the 1KG project have gone away except for two that have no-calls at DF27 - one from Iberia and the other from Puerto Rico. They are both likely to be DF27 however as they share some SNPs with other known DF27 samples.
Thank you.

If you look at the list of STR matches (out of 67) that Tele just posted for us, you'll see that there is a lot of distance between folks. If the DF99 rate is really as high as the 1KG project results now indicate, then DF99 is quite old. You don't have to be big, to be old.

lgmayka
09-27-2013, 02:59 PM
Kit 109663 of Poland (Ysearch 93HBC (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=93hbc&viewuid=93HBC&p=1)) is now

M269+, P312+, DF27-, L21-, M153-, M65-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Z196-

GoldenHind
09-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Kit 109663 of Poland (Ysearch 93HBC (http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp?uid=93hbc&viewuid=93HBC&p=1)) is now

M269+, P312+, DF27-, L21-, M153-, M65-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, Z196-

A quick look at his STRs suggests he is unlikely to be L238, but I think he should try DF19 next.

Telfermagne
09-28-2013, 03:49 PM
Thought I'd mention that FTDNA elected to retest my sample for Z2245 and Z2247 as they had originally tested them as "null" but reported them as "negative" because of IT constraints. From my understanding "null" means that at one point there was a result for a particular SNP then for whatever reason it got deleted from a Y-sequence.

alan
09-28-2013, 05:28 PM
The usual isles bias is a real problem as usual. Do we have a list and variance date for DF99

GoldenHind
09-29-2013, 10:16 AM
The usual isles bias is a real problem as usual. Do we have a list and variance date for DF99

Please see my answer to your question on the DF99 thread.

Despite the enormous British Isles bias, at the moment it appears that DF99 is likely to be much rarer in Britain than on the continent. So far, I am the only British example, though there are likely to be a few more. I expect a few in Scotland and perhaps Wales, but the only likely example I can find in Ireland is from the north of that country and has an English surname.

Netherlands is the only country with multiple examples at present.

But this is all very premature.

castle3
10-08-2013, 01:14 PM
My Chromo 2 test results are due in approx. 3 weeks. Prof Jim W thought that I would almost certainly be L624+, due to others of my surname being DF27- & L624+.
Can't wait!
Cheers,
Bob

castle3
10-08-2013, 06:42 PM
Telfermagne may be interested in this:

A William de Re(e)dness settled in Cumberland. Reedness is 11 miles north east of Hatfield. It's close to several Flemish hot-beds: Holderness & North Lincs were filled with Flemings.
William went by an alias which further indicates his ancestry. William settled in Threapland, Cumberland. That vill is under 3 miles from Torpenhow - a village held by relations of my surname in medieval times.

Telfermagne won't be a blood relation in any sensible timescale, but I feel his ancestors may have been of Flemish stock.

Cheers,

Bob

GoldenHind
10-08-2013, 09:25 PM
Has anyone else who has tested P312** besides Telfermagne and Castle3 ordered the Chromo 2 test? I expect their results will help us continue the process of sorting out and eventually eliminating those without a subclade below P312.

Telfermagne
10-08-2013, 09:39 PM
Telfermagne may be interested in this:

A William de Re(e)dness settled in Cumberland. Reedness is 11 miles north east of Hatfield. It's close to several Flemish hot-beds: Holderness & North Lincs were filled with Flemings.
William went by an alias which further indicates his ancestry. William settled in Threapland, Cumberland. That vill is under 3 miles from Torpenhow - a village held by relations of my surname in medieval times.

Telfermagne won't be a blood relation in any sensible timescale, but I feel his ancestors may have been of Flemish stock.

Cheers,

Bob

With Hatfield and the general Doncaster area, some cousins had thought just because our patriarch died in the area that he was born there but, records indicate his birthplace was Whitkirk about 36 miles away. There's some reason to believe that an earlier family location is a few miles away from Whitkirk in Swillington - within the general vicinity of Leeds. And, eventually the family migrated to Whitgift and Blacktoft with Blacktoft being the last location in England for my branch before settlement in Virginia then, there's another branch that I know of that stayed behind and resided in Goole. These later areas ain't far at all from Reedness (Whitgift about 1.2 miles, Blacktoft 16 miles, and Goole 4.6 miles). It wouldn't be impossible for the unrecorded origins to have been in the Reedness area, we're talkin' about 36 miles at the farthest (considering Whitkirk) and I've done about half that distance in foot trips to the liquor store within a day.

I recall readin' about a William de Reedness (1292 AD) son of Robert de Reedness in a debtor document for the Osgoldcross Wapentake in which Whitgift was contained.

GoldenHind
10-10-2013, 11:31 PM
I am very curious how much of the group currently classified as P312** will turn out to be DF99+. In other words, is DF99 the last remaining subclade directly below P312, or are there others yet to be identified? I can't even hazard an educated guess at the answer.

I have found several very distinct STR clusters within the P312** group, and they do not appear to have any connection. One of these clusters appears likely to be DF99, but I really can't say about the others. Do these represent different subclades below P312, or are they merely different varities of DF99? The SNP appears to be both old and widespread enough that it could well have very different STR clusters and different geographical groups within it, rather like DF27.

Castle3 above indicates he believes he will be positive for L624. If so, is this SNP below DF99 or parallel to it? His Chromo 2 test results will hopefully provide the answer.

There is another person on the P312** list who got a positive result with Geno 2.0 for CTS4528, and at least one other P312** individual did not. Could this define another subclade below P312, or another branch of the DF99 tree? CTS4528 seems be rather mysterious.

Unfortunately FTDNA is still not offering DF99. BritainsDNA and FullGenomes are currently the only companies I am aware of where one can test for it.

castle3
10-11-2013, 09:49 AM
Prof JW said that L624+ was found in under 1% of the British population, so it'll be interesting to see whereabouts in the world other positive testees hail from. The results for DF99 are eagerly awaited, too.
I wonder what the implications will be for sites such as this as we all break off into ever smaller subclades? Will people still be interested in the broader view, or will the majority focus entirely on their own group?

Jean M
10-11-2013, 10:55 AM
Prof JW

Do you mean Dr Jim Wilson? http://www.cphs.mvm.ed.ac.uk/people/staffProfile.php?profile=jwilson7

rms2
10-11-2013, 10:57 AM
Prof JW said that L624+ was found in under 1% of the British population, so it'll be interesting to see whereabouts in the world other positive testees hail from. The results for DF99 are eagerly awaited, too.
I wonder what the implications will be for sites such as this as we all break off into ever smaller subclades? Will people still be interested in the broader view, or will the majority focus entirely on their own group?

I think you will still get plenty of discussion of the broader view, since the number of participants dwindles as one moves up the tree away from the root and out onto the slender twigs. There is only so much going on with a relatively tiny subclade, but much more for the larger branches.

castle3
10-11-2013, 11:59 AM
Correct, Jean

GoldenHind
10-16-2013, 07:33 PM
Another P312** person (I don't like to mention his name without his permission) has ordered a full genome test. I can only guess whether he will be DF99. There is virtually nothing in his STR signature in common with mine. In any case it should go a considerable way in resolving P312**.

GoldenHind
11-22-2013, 09:15 PM
I mentioned this on the DF99 thread, but should probably repeat it here.

Two P312** individuals of British ancestry have negative reults for DF99.

There is now no doubt that DF99 is not the last remaining subclade of P312. There is at least one more yet to be identified (at least publicly).

GoldenHind
11-22-2013, 11:47 PM
Another negative result for DF99: from the surname he is apparently of Scottish ancestry.

The good news is that he has the Big Y on order. I hope this identifies another new subclade under P312.

castle3
11-23-2013, 09:04 AM
Just received my full results. It seems the Armstrong mainstream are now subtype R1b-S389. The blurb states that: 'S389 was in the R1b-S116 group for the first time during the BritainsDNA project and is considerably more common in Scotland'.
An earlier e-mail from Prof JW stated that several other testees with Scottish fatherlines were R1b-S389. It'd be interesting to know what those surnames were.
I'm also listed as 'Beaker Group'.
Bob

Dubhthach
11-23-2013, 12:33 PM
I assume "Beaker Group" is marketing attached to P312 (S116). Still good news about R1b-S389, I'm assuming it's parallel to other known P312 subclades?

-Paul
(DF41+)

GoldenHind
11-24-2013, 02:36 AM
I mentioned this on the DF99 thread, but it probably bears repeating here. There have been five negative against two positive results for DF99 from P312** individuals. This conclusively proves that there are other subclades within P312 yet to be identified.

Two of those who received negative results are part of a large variety, almost all of whom have either Welsh or English surnames. This variety, which I have mentioned before, is distinguished by nine different off modals. When their subclade is eventually identified, it is going to be fairly substantial.

castle3
11-24-2013, 12:08 PM
I mentioned this on the DF99 thread, but it probably bears repeating here. There have been five negative against two positive results for DF99 from P312** individuals. This conclusively proves that there are other subclades within P312 yet to be identified.

Two of those who received negative results are part of a large variety, almost all of whom have either Welsh or English surnames. This variety, which I have mentioned before, is distinguished by nine different off modals. When their subclade is eventually identified, it is going to be fairly substantial.

Thanks for the update, Goldenhind
BritainsDNA supplies a map for R16-S116 which shows percentages for Britain & Ireland. England is shown as 11%, Scotland 9% , Wales 5% & Ireland under 6%. I imagine a map compiled for those with Brythonic Celt ancestry would see Wales & the western half of England with far higher percentages than the east, and percentages nearer 50% than 5% for Wales.
My paper research of medieval docs suggests my Anglo-Scottish border surname has links to Flanders, so more DNA input from France & Belgium etc would be useful. I appreciate the huge timescales involved in all this, so trying to attach surnames to HG's may be problematic to say the least!
Bob

brianlm1
11-25-2013, 09:22 PM
I have just found out that I am DF99-. I hadn't anticipated a result until the end of Dec,

castle3
11-25-2013, 10:06 PM
I have just found out that I am DF99-. I hadn't anticipated a result until the end of Dec,

Good to see more results, Brian. Do you have British or Irish ancestry?
Bob

brianlm1
11-26-2013, 08:14 PM
Good to see more results, Brian. Do you have British or Irish ancestry?
Bob
My great grandfather came to Australia in the late 1860s. He was born in Shoreditch, UK in 1842. His grandfather may have been born in Edinburgh but I have absolutely no confirmation of this.
At FTDNA my closest and only near Y match is a GD1 on 67 markers with a Scottish person who has a family tree that is clearly Scottish for a number of generations.
Brian

R. Walker
12-08-2013, 04:18 AM
Someone emailed me that my brother, Kit # N47555, Penna, DF99 results just came in +.
R. Walker

castle3
12-15-2013, 05:12 PM
What are the latest estimates for the age of L238 & DF99?

GoldenHind
12-15-2013, 11:46 PM
What are the latest estimates for the age of L238 & DF99?

The age of L238 has been discussed recently on the L238 thread. There doesn't seem to be anything definitive. A couple of people who calculated its variance came up with roughly 2000 YBP, but with a wide margin of error. Vince T. thinks it is roughly 700 to 1500 years younger than P312, but I believe that would require an extraordinary bottleneck.

As for DF99, it is far too early to say much. But it differs from L238 in a number of respects:

1) DF99 appears to have a much wider distribution than L238, which is largely confined to Scandinavia, with a few in Britain.

2) DF99 does not appear to have a strong STR signature which applies to the entire subclade.

3) While I haven't worked out GDs within L238, I doubt they are likely to be as great as those which are already found in DF99.

All of this suggests to me that DF99 is probably nearly as old as P312, but this is very provisional.

R.Rocca
12-16-2013, 01:17 AM
The age of L238 has been discussed recently on the L238 thread. There doesn't seem to be anything definitive. A couple of people who calculated its variance came up with roughly 2000 YBP, but with a wide margin of error. Vince T. thinks it is roughly 700 to 1500 years younger than P312, but I believe that would require an extraordinary bottleneck.

As for DF99, it is far to early to say much. But it differs from L238 in a number of respects:

1) DF99 appears to have a much wider distribution than L238, which is largely confined to Scandinavia, with a few in Britain.

2) DF99 does not appear to have a strong STR signature which applies to the entire subclade.

3) While I haven't worked out GDs within L238, I doubt they are likely to be as great as those which are already found in DF99.

All of this suggests to me that DF99 is probably nearly as old as P312, but this is very provisional.

I would like to add that the only two L238+ full sequences share nine SNPs with each other (Z2244 through Z2251 and Z2264). Therefore, L238 could be a subclade of one of these other SNPs, and its parent clade might have a wider distribution and an older age.

GoldenHind
12-17-2013, 12:55 AM
I believe all the DF99 orders at FTDNA by those who were formerly classified P312** have now been processed, though there is a BigY test pending by a P312** person whom I suspect will be DF99+, and another BigY by a P312** individual who has tested DF99-. So perhaps it is appropriate to examine the results.

Six of those formerly P312** have now tested DF99+. Nine remain P312** after testing DF99-. The actual number of those who ordered DF99 is higher, as there were a couple of DF99+ results and a couple of negative results from people who were't in the P312** group.

This is too small of a sample to be reliable, but it appears that DF99 may be aroud 40% of P312**. The other 60% or so of P312** are clearly in subclades which have not yet been identified. Several people in a cluster of primarily Welsh and English surnames I have found within P312** all tested DF99-. This group shares a large number of off modal markers, but is easily identifiable by their rare and distinctive 14 at DYS392.

I count 19 in the P312** group who have not yet ordered DF99. Some of these are almost certainly DF99+, and some would most likely test DF99-, based on their STR connections with those who have already tested. But in my opinion, it simply isn't possible to predict the results of most of them. It seems odd to me that people who have been persistent enough with SNP testing to get to P312** haven't ordered DF99.

castle3
12-19-2013, 07:59 PM
Please see my reply on the P312** DF99 thread. It strongly applies to those of us who are DF99-. I have medieval charter evidence showing links between a number of us who are DF99-. This applies particularly to two surnames who have geographical links close to Ousby & Torpenhow, Cumbria. Also, there are links to Dumfriesshire & Roxburghshire for some.

GoldenHind
12-23-2013, 07:57 PM
There have been some posts on the DF99 page about two P312 individuals who tested positive for two SNPs in Geno 2: CTS7550 and PF1085.

One of them (identified as Eores Ghost) has now tested P312**, including DF99-. In looking into this, he appears to be a member of a fairly large P312** STR cluster. There is at least one other member of this cluster who is P312**. That person has a same surname match with another, who though he hasn't tested for DF27 or DF19, is undoubtedly also P312**.

This group has a large number of matches at 67 markers, with several different English or Scottish surnames. It appears most don't have ancestry beyond the USA. When I have time, I will look into this group and report here.

EDIT: I believe I have now found the Ysearch ID for Eores Ghost. If I am correct, he and the other person who shares the two SNPs mentioned above are a GD of 8 at 67 markers. Thus they may well be private. I found some of the others in this cluster who give their ancestry as Scottish. Eores Ghost has an English surname and the other person who shares the two SNPs has a Welsh surname.

GoldenHind
12-24-2013, 12:45 AM
There have been some posts on the DF99 page about two P312 individuals who tested positive for two SNPs in Geno 2: CTS7550 and PF1085.

One of them (identified as Eores Ghost) has now tested P312**, including DF99-. In looking into this, he appears to be a member of a fairly large P312** STR cluster. There is at least one other member of this cluster who is P312**. That person has a same surname match with another, who though he hasn't tested for DF27 or DF19, is undoubtedly also P312**.

This group has a large number of matches at 67 markers, with several different English or Scottish surnames. It appears most don't have ancestry beyond the USA. When I have time, I will look into this group and report here.

EDIT: I believe I have now found the Ysearch ID for Eores Ghost. If I am correct, he and the other person who shares the two SNPs mentioned above are a GD of 8 at 67 markers. Thus they may well be private. I found some of the others in this cluster who give their ancestry as Scottish. Eores Ghost has an English surname and the other person who shares the two SNPs has a Welsh surname.

I have had a quick look on Ysearch. This variety of P312** tends to share seven off modal markers. They are (modals in parenthesis):

DYS 19 = 15 (modal 14); this really stands out
DYS 391 = 10 (11)
DYS 385a = 10 (11)
DYS464e = 16 (17)
DYS456 = 15 (16)
DYS 607 = 16 (15)
DYS534 = 14 (15)

Off hand, I would guess that anyone who has six or so of these is likely to be P312**, and may very well also have CTS7550 and PF1085. I suspect this is part of a much larger P312** variety, but whether they all share these SNPs, or whether that is limited to the smaller group is unknown.

GoldenHind
12-26-2013, 10:52 PM
It appears to me that it would be an excellent idea for others in the above cluster to order CTS7550 and PF1085, but on checking, FTDNA appears not to offer testing for them. This is very bizarre, as I believe they do the testing for Geno 2. If so, they obviously have the capability of testing for them. Perhaps they think they are private- which in fact they may be- but until we try testing other samples we have no way of knowing for certain. I gather all we know at the moment is that they haven't turned up in any other Geno 2 results beyond those two in question here.

DavidCar
02-12-2014, 03:46 AM
Ive just seen the preliminary chromo2 signature for eores ghost and it shows nothing below p312.

brianlm1
02-12-2014, 06:50 PM
I received my Y results from Britain's DNA yesterday and S116 (P312) is my terminal SNP.

rms2
02-12-2014, 07:05 PM
I received my Y results from Britain's DNA yesterday and S116 (P312) is my terminal SNP.

BritainsDNA will give you an official, reported "terminal SNP" that is on the current tree, but you need to check you raw results to see if your real terminal SNP is actually something farther downstream. For example, my official, reported terminal SNP on my BritainsDNA "myDNA" page is S145 (L21); however, I know that I am DF41+ from testing with FTDNA, and, yes, my BritainsDNA results show that I am S524+, which is BritainsDNA's name for DF41.

So, what BritainsDNA is doing is giving you a terminal SNP that is on whatever tree they are currently using, but you may have tested positive for one farther downstream that is just not on that tree yet.

Is that clear? You have to check your results to see if you're positive for something downstream of S116 (P312).

But maybe you know all that already, have compared your results to those of others, and really are P312*.

castle3
02-13-2014, 03:31 AM
You mentioned being DF99- in an earlier post, Brian. I just wondered if your results showed S389+ anywhere? I'm DF99- & S389+.

Aonghus
02-13-2014, 04:41 AM
[QUOTE=rms2;30938]BritainsDNA will give you an official, reported "terminal SNP" that is on the current tree, but you need to check you raw results to see if your real terminal SNP is actually something farther downstream. "

I do not see a link to download a raw results file. Is this something that gets posted later?
So the page with the list of positive results are they only posting positive results for known or published SNP?

castle3
02-13-2014, 07:10 AM
From memory, I recall a day or two lag before I received my raw data file. I think I was impatient & e-mailed their support team to ask if I was S389+, which I had reasons for assuming I would be. They confirmed I was, and my full data soon followed.

brianlm1
02-13-2014, 08:09 PM
I am not listed as S389+

brianlm1
02-13-2014, 08:19 PM
The question is, of course, how do I access my raw data? Britains DNA refers to "raw data" and that it is online but doesn't tell how to access it. To the best of my knowledge I am not positive for anything downstream from P-312.

GoldenHind
02-14-2014, 12:42 AM
I have found something that applies to Brian which is potentially interesting.

When I first started looking at the P312** group sometime ago, I was struck by how many of them had the otherwise very rare 389i=12. This is found in only about 5% of R1b, and was very strongly over represented in P312**. With the discovery of DF99, it looked likely that this rare value was modal for that subclade. However several people in the P312** group who had this rare marker value tested DF99-, and Brian is one of them.

Looking at those who are P312**, including DF99-, and have 389i=12 again, they appear to have some other off modal matches. These include 439=13 (modal is 12) amd 449=30 or 31 (modal is 29). Most in the group are either Scots or Welsh, although there is one from France (Normandy) as well.

This will require some further research, but provisionally it looks to me that this group is likely to constitute yet another variety within P312** whose subclade remains unidentified. It is likely that the reason 389i=12 was so common in the P312** group is that it is modal for two different P312 subclades, or perhaps more accurately, at least subgroups within two different subclades.

brianlm1
02-14-2014, 05:09 AM
Thanks for this info. It is still a waiting game.

jeanL
02-14-2014, 11:59 PM
What does one usually get in terms of terminal SNP for the cheapest 12 marker FTDNA test? As you all know I am R1b-L11(xU106) as per 23andme, and I thought with the new v4 platform they might have test P312 or DF27 however, it seems they aren't even testing for L11 as I share with someone who is from v4 and was assigned to the standard R1b1b2a1a, and I looked through his raw files and there is no P312 or DF27 defining SNPs, I know I am negative for L21+ , U152+, SRY2627, M153 and M65. So if I test with FTDNA what would I get in terms of Haplogroup? Plain R1b, if so, then what is my next step to take to test for DF27?

GTC
02-15-2014, 12:19 AM
What does one usually get in terms of terminal SNP for the cheapest 12 marker FTDNA test? As you all know I am R1b-L11(xU106) as per 23andme, and I thought with the new v4 platform they might have test P312 or DF27 however, it seems they aren't even testing for L11 as I share with someone who is from v4 and was assigned to the standard R1b1b2a1a, and I looked through his raw files and there is no P312 or DF27 defining SNPs, I know I am negative for L21+ , U152+, SRY2627, M153 and M65. So if I test with FTDNA what would I get in terms of Haplogroup? Plain R1b, if so, then what is my next step to take to test for DF27?

When you take an STR test at FTDNA, they merely predict your haplogroup from comparison with their huge database of haplotypes. In your case I guess they would report R-L11 (in long name format -- FTDNA's haplotree is way out of date, about 3 years old now and due for major update any time soon.)

The usual step after that for SNP research was to purchase a Deep Clade test wherein FTDNA worked down their haplotree for your first positive and stopped there. After that you needed to purchase tests for separate SNPs based on a search strategy which was usually provided under guidance from your haplogroup project admins after you joined the appropriate haplogroup project.

In the above process, if for some reason FTDNA is unable to predict haplogroup from STRs, then they perform what they call "backbone testing", which is essentially a free Deep Clade test.

FTDNA withdrew the Deep Clade test as a purchasable product when Geno 2 arrived (although I believe that FTDNA may be planning a comeback for Deep Clade in some form or another.)

The latest and greatest thing at FTDNA at the moment is the BIG Y product, initial results of which are supposedly due this month.

Regarding DF27, you can purchase that specific test from FTDNA for $49.

Joe B
02-15-2014, 01:43 AM
What does one usually get in terms of terminal SNP for the cheapest 12 marker FTDNA test? As you all know I am R1b-L11(xU106) as per 23andme, and I thought with the new v4 platform they might have test P312 or DF27 however, it seems they aren't even testing for L11 as I share with someone who is from v4 and was assigned to the standard R1b1b2a1a, and I looked through his raw files and there is no P312 or DF27 defining SNPs, I know I am negative for L21+ , U152+, SRY2627, M153 and M65. So if I test with FTDNA what would I get in terms of Haplogroup? Plain R1b, if so, then what is my next step to take to test for DF27?Hey Jean,
12 markers will only get you a prediction as GTC said. Most likely the prediction or backbone test will only be R1b-M269, regardless of STR testing level.
You do know that most people on this forum advocate at least 67 STRs and testing for your terminal SNP.:blah:
Backbone SNP Chart (http://www.familytreedna.com/img/snp_tree/backbone_SNP_chart.png)
I read this every now and then to remind myself why I spent the money.
What is a Y-chromosome DNA (Y-DNA) STR test? What will I learn? (http://www.familytreedna.com/faq/answers.aspx?id=8#511)
Go for it!

GoldenHind
02-15-2014, 06:00 PM
I agree with the above. Regardless of your markers, you are not going to get a prediction higher than M269. However the basic 12 markers gives you access to SNP testing. Theoretically you should start with P312. However the highest probability numerically is that you will be DF27+. I would start with DF27, since if you get a positive result for that, you know you are also P312+. If you get a DF27- result, the options then are that you are 1) P312-, or 2) P312+ and positive for one of the remaining subclades of Df19, DF99 or L238, or 3) P312**. Sometimes even 12 markers can suggest which of the above is the most likely, but most of the time they don't.

TigerMW
02-16-2014, 02:40 AM
...
You do know that most people on this forum advocate at least 67 STRs and testing for your terminal.....
Go for it!

About a year ago I switched from the 67 STRs and now advocate 111 Y STRs. I can explain why I think what I do.

GoldenHind
02-16-2014, 06:04 PM
About a year ago I switched from the 67 STRs and now advocate 111 Y STRs. I can explain why I think what I do.

While I don't doubt that 111 markers can be helpful to those in large subclades, such as L21, and who have a lot of matches at 67 markers, I am not convinced it has much value for the rest of us, at least at this point. However I think that is really a different topic.

VinceT
02-16-2014, 06:45 PM
Now anecdotal instead of useful - but was once a reason to upgrade to more markers:

For a while early last year, a "glitch" existed in the Y-DNA > Matches subsection in one's personal FTDNA profile page. At the time, someone observed that if you set your reference haplotype to 67 markers for instance, then maxed out the Distance parameter (i.e. 7 steps), and then re-set the haplotype to 37 markers, the "7 step" distance parameter would stick, permitting one to search for 30/37 matches or better. Likewise, having an 111 marker haplotype (with a max 10 step distance search) thus permitted one to perform a search for 57/67 matches or better.

This was the process by which I discovered the guy who eventually was confirmed to be my long-lost U106>L199.1+ cousin, who at the time only had 37 markers, but mismatched me past the default maximum distance search.

Tragically soon after, FTDNA's web programmer fixed the aforementioned glitch. As consequence, my distant L199.1+ cousin (who mismatches me 2/12, 3/25, 6/37, 8/67, and 14/111) doesn't show up on any search since his haplotype mismatches mine just past the maximum distance available for each haplotype length: {1/12, 2/25, 4/37, 7/67, 10/111}.

Thanks FTDNA. Your helpfulness is unbelievable.

Joe B
02-16-2014, 08:42 PM
About a year ago I switched from the 67 STRs and now advocate 111 Y STRs. I can explain why I think what I do.
Could you start a thread about 111 Y STRs and what to do with them? Which markers are important and in what order? And of course, anybody seeing STR signatures?

Webb
02-17-2014, 03:06 AM
Now anecdotal instead of useful - but was once a reason to upgrade to more markers:

For a while early last year, a "glitch" existed in the Y-DNA > Matches subsection in one's personal FTDNA profile page. At the time, someone observed that if you set your reference haplotype to 67 markers for instance, then maxed out the Distance parameter (i.e. 7 steps), and then re-set the haplotype to 37 markers, the "7 step" distance parameter would stick, permitting one to search for 30/37 matches or better. Likewise, having an 111 marker haplotype (with a max 10 step distance search) thus permitted one to perform a search for 57/67 matches or better.

This was the process by which I discovered the guy who eventually was confirmed to be my long-lost U106>L199.1+ cousin, who at the time only had 37 markers, but mismatched me past the default maximum distance search.

Tragically soon after, FTDNA's web programmer fixed the aforementioned glitch. As consequence, my distant L199.1+ cousin (who mismatches me 2/12, 3/25, 6/37, 8/67, and 14/111) doesn't show up on any search since his haplotype mismatches mine just past the maximum distance available for each haplotype length: {1/12, 2/25, 4/37, 7/67, 10/111}.

Thanks FTDNA. Your helpfulness is unbelievable.

I can't bang that drum enough. I think most of us get caught up with our 67 marker matches and too often ignore the 37 marker matches, which can turn out to be huge clues. My 37 marker matches are all Z220 as am I, and I ignored them for a while until one day I noticed a Vander Hoeven in the Z220 subsection of the DF27 project and I match 7 of them at 37 markers but loose them at 67. If your ancestral grouping is old enough, then there is a good chance that 37 marker matches are part of that grouping.

tmg2013
02-24-2014, 03:18 AM
Another negative result for DF99: from the surname he is apparently of Scottish ancestry.

The good news is that he has the Big Y on order. I hope this identifies another new subclade under P312.

Late reply to Golden Hind post of 11-22-2013, 03:47 PM. I just joined this newsgroup. Sounds like me. My "STR surname", as opposed to my given surname, is also Scottish. Both are names of former lairds in Dumfries and Galloway.
One of my STR "cousins" is also R-P312**.

GoldenHind
02-24-2014, 06:33 PM
Late reply to Golden Hind post of 11-22-2013, 03:47 PM. I just joined this newsgroup. Sounds like me. My "STR surname", as opposed to my given surname, is also Scottish. Both are names of former lairds in Dumfries and Galloway.
One of my STR "cousins" is also R-P312**.

If I have identified you correctly, you are part of a P312** cluster which is found along the Scottish/English border. Castle3 on this forum is also part of this group. He tested positive for S389/L624 with BritainsDNA. It will be interesting to see if everyone in this cluster turns out to be positive for this SNP. Let us hope it is included in the Big Y results.

Incidentally, looking at a group of four who are in this cluster, they tend to have all or most of the following off modal markers (modal for P312 in brackets):

DYS439 = 13 (12)
DYS458 = 18 or 19 (17)
DYS576 = 19 or 20 (18)
DYS537 = 11 (10)

Given the history of the area, one might almost expect that despite the four different surnames, they are all members of a single family. However you are a sufficient genetic distance from one of the others (29 at 67) that this must be a fairly old subclade. What remains to be seen is whether S389/L624 defines the entire group, a much larger group, or merely a portion of it.

brianlm1
04-29-2014, 04:44 AM
Just a quick note to ask for some help.
Looking at FTDNA's haplotree I notice that they are highlighting some SNPs that may be useful for me to test. Having gone over the ISOGG haplotree and my Chromo2 results I think there are 2 that may be of value for me to test. Are CTS10429 and F2691 likely to test positive ? It is becoming increasingly more difficult to keep up with the information that is becoming available and I am wondering if the "Real deal" group has become irrelevant or is being left behind in the rush?

castle3
04-29-2014, 08:09 AM
Brian, you've probably seen the dire mess FTDNA have created with their supposed 'new tree'? It seems to be at least two years out of date! I am DF99- and have tested S389+ (aka L624+) via BDNA. However, FTDNA now have me listed as R-P312, something I was categorized as many years ago.
FTDNA have now realised the mess they've created & have e-mailed admins to say that anyone ordering an unnecessary SNP will get a refund.
I'm not sure what you should be ordering at present, but I know FTDNA tried testing L624+ for a relative of mine as a singleton, but they listed it a no-call. It seems they won't necessarily be able to glean L624+ as a single test. That's a shame as it means going for an expensive test for those who want to test for L624/S389.
If FTDNA CAN test individually for it, then I hope they let it be known.
Cheers,
Bob

GTC
04-29-2014, 09:02 AM
FTDNA have now realised the mess they've created & have e-mailed admins to say that anyone ordering an unnecessary SNP will get a refund.

FTDNA management ought to have this painted in large letters on their office walls: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Their help desk must cringe in fear every time IT rolls something out.

GoldenHind
04-30-2014, 06:48 PM
Just a quick note to ask for some help.
Looking at FTDNA's haplotree I notice that they are highlighting some SNPs that may be useful for me to test. Having gone over the ISOGG haplotree and my Chromo2 results I think there are 2 that may be of value for me to test. Are CTS10429 and F2691 likely to test positive ? It is becoming increasingly more difficult to keep up with the information that is becoming available and I am wondering if the "Real deal" group has become irrelevant or is being left behind in the rush?

I am unable to find either CTS10429 or F2691 anywhere on the ISOGG tree. I think testing for them is likely be to an extreme long shot.

I believe you are correct in your assessment that P312** is being left behind in the dust. If it's any consolation, that isn't the only P312 category that applies to. I would say it is also true of L238 and DF99, neither of which appears in FTDNA's new tree. There might be some excuse for DF99 since it is relatively new (though it was discovered prior to the announced cut off date for SNPs for
for inclusion in the new tree), but there is none for L238, which was discovered about four years ago.

I do believe that it is only a matter of time before some additional SNPs are discovered below P312. I am only aware of one P312** individual who ordered the Big Y. It would be helpful if there were others whose results could be compared to his. Perhaps something will come out of the People of the British Isles Project.

brianlm1
05-01-2014, 01:25 AM
Thanks for your reply.
My hope would be to do the Big Y but that is not likely in the foreseeable future.

GoldenHind
06-11-2014, 07:29 PM
I mentioned this on the DF99 thread, but it is probably worth repeating here. There is now a new P312** member whose DF99- results recently came in. His ancestry is from Cornwall. This as now a sizable group, and would undoubtedly be much larger if more people tested for DF27 and DF99. All but two are of British ancestry, with many from Wales and Scotland. There is one from Normandy, and one American with unknown ancestry, but whose surname sounds French to me. How much of this is due to the enormous bias towards people of British ancestry in the FTDNA is unknown.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is at least one subclade of P312 which remains undiscovered, and I have little doubt that it will have a strong Brythonic/Celtic component.

GoldenHind
07-17-2014, 11:28 PM
Another addition to the P312** list today for a person of English origin when his DF99 test came in with negative results. At first glance he appears to be part of the English/Welsh group which has 392=14.

GoldenHind
12-16-2014, 06:44 PM
Brian, you've probably seen the dire mess FTDNA have created with their supposed 'new tree'? It seems to be at least two years out of date! I am DF99- and have tested S389+ (aka L624+) via BDNA. However, FTDNA now have me listed as R-P312, something I was categorized as many years ago.
FTDNA have now realised the mess they've created & have e-mailed admins to say that anyone ordering an unnecessary SNP will get a refund.
I'm not sure what you should be ordering at present, but I know FTDNA tried testing L624+ for a relative of mine as a singleton, but they listed it a no-call. It seems they won't necessarily be able to glean L624+ as a single test. That's a shame as it means going for an expensive test for those who want to test for L624/S389.
If FTDNA CAN test individually for it, then I hope they let it be known.
Cheers,
Bob

Apparently FTDNA has finally worked out how to test for L624/S384, and someone else beside castle3 (I believe it is tmg2013) has now tested positive for it. Both have Scottish ancestry. I have now located their Ysearch entries and see that they are a GD of 31 at 67 markers, so this SNP must be fairly old. I had forgotten that I had made some mention of a cluster that both these two fall into (see my post #72 above).

Thus it appears we have finally identified a new SNP below P312. Whether it will turn out to represent a new subclade or merely a portion of a as yet unidentified subclade remains to be seen. It may or may not be confined to the cluster mentioned above which is from the Scottish borders.

The only way to find out is for other P312** to order it. I hope they don't have to wait as long for a result (seven months in one case, a year and a half in the other). Perhaps the delay was due to some difficulty in determining how to test for this SNP, and the problem has now been solved.

castle3
12-17-2014, 09:27 AM
Just for confirmation,tmg100: Have you been confirmed as L624+ (aka S389+)? It'll be useful if it is you as our ancestors had Peel towers within a few miles of each other.
Bob

brianlm1
12-18-2014, 01:28 AM
Britain's DNA Chromo2 raw results listed me as negative for S389.

GoldenHind
02-03-2015, 08:43 PM
There are indications of progress on the P312** front. There are some very talented researchers who have been looking at the Big Y results for those who are P312**, and one of them has found an SNP that appears to unite three different P312** samples. He has also found an additional four SNPs two of these three have in common. Further research is ongoing.

This is especially interesting to me because one of these samples is part of a very strong STR signature I found sometime ago in P312** which is composed almost exclusively of those with Welsh and English surnames (see my post no. 2 on the first page of this thread). Another is the person who has been referred to as Eore's Ghost on this forum.

GoldenHind
03-29-2015, 06:04 PM
There is a new addition to the P312** list, the first with an Italian origin. The P312** list has been dominated by samples with British origins. I have often wondered if this was due to the enormous bias toward those with British ancestry in the FTDNA database, and this addition suggests that this may well be the case.

R.Rocca
03-29-2015, 06:17 PM
There is a new addition to the P312** list, the first with an Italian origin. The P312** list has been dominated by samples with British origins. I have often wondered if this was due to the enormous bias toward those with British ancestry in the FTDNA database, and this addition suggests that this may well be the case.

No shot he is L238+, correct?

GoldenHind
03-29-2015, 10:59 PM
No shot he is L238+, correct?

I have learned the hard way that one can never be 100% certain in predicting P312 subclades. Since the person in question only has 37 markers, I can only compare his markers to those of Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse modal at 385 and 439. At 385 he has 11,17- the Norse modal is 11,13. At 439 he has 13- the Norse modal is 11. While there are a couple of confirmed L238's who aren't particularly good matches to the Norse modal, no one is as far removed as this guy. In summary, I wouldn't want to say it's impossible, but the odds are very heavy against an L238+ result.

R.Rocca
03-29-2015, 11:27 PM
I have learned the hard way that one can never be 100% certain in predicting P312 subclades. Since the person in question only has 37 markers, I can only compare his markers to those of Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse modal at 385 and 439. At 385 he has 11,17- the Norse modal is 11,13. At 439 he has 13- the Norse modal is 11. While there are a couple of confirmed L238's who aren't particularly good matches to the Norse modal, no one is as far removed as this guy. In summary, I wouldn't want to say it's impossible, but the odds are very heavy against an L238+ result.

It looks like someone is giving him good advice on what to test. If not, I can have him try to test L238. Let me know either way. Thanks.

GoldenHind
03-31-2015, 07:36 PM
It looks like someone is giving him good advice on what to test. If not, I can have him try to test L238. Let me know either way. Thanks.

I have made some recommendations to him for testing, but I am generally reluctant to recommend someone spend money on a test when he has very little chance of a positive result. If I were him, I would consider waiting until the rumored forthcoming R1b panel, or until we know more about Alex W's ZZ37, which he places between P312 and L624/S389 (found in a few P312** individuals with Scottish surnames). On the other hand, if it is worth $39 for him to know for certain he isn't L238, I wouldn't try to talk him out of it.

R.Rocca
04-07-2015, 12:01 PM
I have made some recommendations to him for testing, but I am generally reluctant to recommend someone spend money on a test when he has very little chance of a positive result. If I were him, I would consider waiting until the rumored forthcoming R1b panel, or until we know more about Alex W's ZZ37, which he places between P312 and L624/S389 (found in a few P312** individuals with Scottish surnames). On the other hand, if it is worth $39 for him to know for certain he isn't L238, I wouldn't try to talk him out of it.

Not really a P312* anymore, but Italy project kit no. N115286 has tested DF19+. I suspect he is the southernmost DF19 sample to date.

GTC
04-07-2015, 12:42 PM
If I were him, I would consider waiting until the rumored forthcoming R1b panel, ...

Anybody got news on this (aka Deep Clade 2)?

GoldenHind
04-17-2015, 12:38 AM
There is a new addition to the P312** list, the first with an Italian origin. The P312** list has been dominated by samples with British origins. I have often wondered if this was due to the enormous bias toward those with British ancestry in the FTDNA database, and this addition suggests that this may well be the case.

Negative results for DF19 and DF99 came in today for someone of Polish origin. He has now tested negative for all currently known P312 subclades except L238, and his markers suggest it is highly unlikely he would test L238+. One more bit of evidence that the P312** paragroup has more of a presence on the continent than previously indicated.

razyn
04-17-2015, 01:11 AM
Isn't that L624/S389 group within P312 also in this category? P312** until proven otherwise -- and several people have it in their BigY results, so it's pretty much being proven otherwise. Whether it's stable (or non-recurrent), I can't say; anyway, there are other equivalents for the same group, if L624 be too skittish:
19314263 G-T
21465748 G-T
22270289 C-T
22605877 T-C

The guy in the DF27 project who showed those markers hadn't actually tested DF27+, so my seeing his results was coincidental. I stay busy with DF27 groups, so I very seldom take a peek at the P312** results -- don't really have time for that.

GoldenHind
04-17-2015, 11:06 PM
Isn't that L624/S389 group within P312 also in this category? P312** until proven otherwise -- and several people have it in their BigY results, so it's pretty much being proven otherwise. Whether it's stable (or non-recurrent), I can't say; anyway, there are other equivalents for the same group, if L624 be too skittish:
19314263 G-T
21465748 G-T
22270289 C-T



The guy in the DF27 project who showed those markers hadn't actually tested DF27+, so my seeing his results was coincidental. I stay busy with DF27 groups, so I very seldom take a peek at the P312** results -- don't really have time for that.

There have been scattered references to L624/S389 on several different threads. I think it is important enough to merit its own thread, so someone should start one. I can do it when I have time. Two more L624+ results came in today in people who are otherwise P312**. One was expected due to his matches with other L624+ samples. He represents the main line of a Scottish family with origins in Dumfries. The second is a bit of a surprise, as he breaks the mold of Scottish surnames so far associated with this group. He has English ancestry from Cornwall, a long way from the Picts who some have associated with this SNP.

brianlm1
08-03-2015, 04:19 AM
I have just received my FTDNA BigY results and I remain P312. What's next?

lgmayka
08-03-2015, 11:20 PM
I have just received my FTDNA BigY results and I remain P312. What's next?
1) Join the P312 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-p312/about/background).
2) Ask FTDNA for your BAM file (via their Contact Form (https://www.familytreedna.com/contact.aspx), Change Order then Big Y BAM Request), then submit the BAM file to YFull for professional analysis and placement on the haplotree.

brianlm1
08-04-2015, 11:42 PM
Thanks for your response. I am already part of the P312 project and have been in touch with them. At this point they are telling me I am 1 of only 2 BigY P312s. I will be onforwarding my BAM file link to them for further help. I am also part of FTDNA's MacFarlane surname project and have sent my results to them.

GoldenHind
11-01-2015, 07:27 PM
The P312** section of the FTDNA P312 and Subclades Project has grown quite a bit since the new R1b backbone test. The one from Italy mentioned above is now confirmed L238-, which wasn't very likely.

GoldenHind
11-18-2015, 08:03 PM
Twelve DF27 results came in today for people who had taken the FTDNA R1b backbone test and got nothing below P312. Ten of them tested positive for DF27. The other two were negative, and have now been added to the P312** list. One of these is from Finland. My guess is that somewhere around 85% of those who get nothing below P312 in the initial round of the R1b backbone will prove to be DF27+ Z195/6-.

The P312** list now includes several examples from the continent, from Finland to Italy, though those from the British Isles remain dominant. Doubtless this is due to their overweighting in the FTDNA database.

Gray Fox
11-18-2015, 08:37 PM
Twelve DF27 results came in today for people who had taken the FTDNA R1b backbone test and got nothing below P312. Ten of them tested positive for DF27. The other two were negative, and have now been added to the P312** list. One of these is from Finland. My guess is that somewhere around 85% of those who get nothing below P312 in the initial round of the R1b backbone will prove to be DF27+ Z195/6-.

The P312** list now includes several examples from the continent, from Finland to Italy, though those from the British Isles remain dominant. Doubtless this is due to their overweighting in the FTDNA database.

Do you know the ethnic/geographic break-down of those ten new DF27 results?

GoldenHind
11-19-2015, 12:09 AM
Do you know the ethnic/geographic break-down of those ten new DF27 results?

The ten new DF27+ Z195/6- are primarily of English origin (Cambridgeshire, Devon and Yorkshire- the rest unspecified). One was from Scotland, and another with USA ancestry has a Scottish surname. There is also one from France, one from Portugal, and one with a Spanish surname and New Mexico ancestry.

GoldenHind
11-21-2015, 10:42 PM
This is a response to posts on the FTDNA R1b backbone test thread, which I am posting here because they are more relevant to P312**.

Mww suggested the P312** group is getting quite small as a result of the new R1b backbone test. I suggest it is actually getting larger. There are now some 22 in the R1b-P312 project who are classified as P312**, and the number grows with every new round of the backbone test. Add to this some 9 who are classified as P312>L624 but are otherwise negative for the six subclades of P312. L624/S389 is not recognized on any tree, so they really remain as part of P312**. There are also another 13 who are one or two SNP tests (which don't look very promising) away from P312** status.

Rayzn suggested the group is rife for Big Y or other NGS testing, and suggested crowd funding to support it. Actually we have some 15 Big Y results for those who are P312** (including the L624+ group) that have been analyzed by Alex W. Three of those remain singletons. The other 12 are positive for two of his problematic palindromic SNPs, which he calls ZZ37 and ZZ38. Within that group he has three further subdivisions, one of which is the L624 group.

Certainly more Big Y tests for P312** would be helpful. I believe that what is really needed is at least two of this group to test with FullGenomes, which covers regions untested in the Big Y. Crowd funding would be great, if we could find someone to manage it.

razyn
11-22-2015, 05:22 AM
Certainly more Big Y tests for P312** would be helpful. I believe that what is really needed is at least two of this group to test with FullGenomes, which covers regions untested in the Big Y. Crowd funding would be great, if we could find someone to manage it.

I did say BigY "or other NGS," that being a kenning for FGC -- since that is who else sells those to the public.

But I think I agree with Mike more than I agree with you -- that the size, or at least the parameters, of P312** is shrinking rather than expanding. I reorganized the DF27** guys on the basis of the kind of tests they have taken that still didn't find any shared SNPs below DF27. They are my group Ea. And I suggest that if you were to do the same, P312** would shrink -- notably, by excluding those guys who share one or more of Alex's allegedly problematic SNPs. Call them something other than SNPs or UEPs, if it floats your boat: chromosomal aberrations that distinguish them from others who lack them, and form separate branches -- in some cases thousands of years old, and perfectly stable. It doesn't really bother me if they are hard for Thomas or somebody else to test -- that just makes them expensive, not invalid or unstable.

GoldenHind
11-22-2015, 06:49 PM
I did say BigY "or other NGS," that being a kenning for FGC -- since that is who else sells those to the public.

But I think I agree with Mike more than I agree with you -- that the size, or at least the parameters, of P312** is shrinking rather than expanding. I reorganized the DF27** guys on the basis of the kind of tests they have taken that still didn't find any shared SNPs below DF27. They are my group Ea. And I suggest that if you were to do the same, P312** would shrink -- notably, by excluding those guys who share one or more of Alex's allegedly problematic SNPs. Call them something other than SNPs or UEPs, if it floats your boat: chromosomal aberrations that distinguish them from others who lack them, and form separate branches -- in some cases thousands of years old, and perfectly stable. It doesn't really bother me if they are hard for Thomas or somebody else to test -- that just makes them expensive, not invalid or unstable.

I was referring to numbers rather than parameters. By any measure, the R1b backbone test has increased the number of P312**. It has also increased their geographic spread. Not long ago, most of P312** was from Britain. Now we know that it is also present across the continent, from Finland to Italy to (probably) Poland.

In referring to the palindromic SNPs as problematic, I am deferring to the opinions of those who know more about the science than I do. As I understand it, these SNPs are considered unstable because they are subject to back mutation on recombination events. Even Alex says their position is ambiguous. I am hopeful that eventually other equivalent SNPs will be discovered which will resolve the issue. In the meantime, I am adopting a wait and see attitude.

The other problem with them is that the only way to test them is 1) to do the Big Y, AND 2) submit the Big Y data to Alex for analysis. Otherwise they are not identifiable.

MJost
11-22-2015, 10:48 PM
I ...
The other problem with them is that the only way to test them is 1) to do the Big Y, AND 2) submit the Big Y data to Alex for analysis. Otherwise they are not identifiable.
I agree.

** folks are represented by ancient ghosts until they test with NGS as far as I am concerned.

MJost

GoldenHind
11-24-2015, 01:08 AM
I want to make it very clear that I am in no way detracting from Alex's work in analyzing P312 results. Although I am uncertain what the ultimate fate of his palindronic ZZ series SNPs will be, his work has been very helpful to the resolution of P312 subclades, and I highly recommend that anyone in the P312 group who does the Big Y send him their raw data for analysis. This is especially important for those in the P312** category. I might add that he is quite selfless in this endeavor and charges no fee whatsoever for his service.

GoldenHind
11-25-2015, 08:39 PM
A couple of years ago I mentioned that I had found an STR cluster within P312** which consisted largely of Welsh surnames (see post#2 on the first page of this thread). I have just discovered that two people with Welsh surnames who fit this STR profile have had their Big Y raw data files analyzed by Alex W., and both are positive for a number of SNPs, including one called S27900 (presumably a BritainsDNA marker). An easy way to spot this cluster is they all have an otherwise rare 14 at DYS392. I think the indications are very strong that S27900 is a new SNP under P312, though it may very well be more than one step down from P312. I suspect it will primarily be found in Britain, and especially Wales.

S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.

VinceT
11-26-2015, 12:51 AM
S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.
I don't see "S27900" in the Chromo2 list. The last one listed is "S27802". Do you have coordinates?

razyn
11-26-2015, 01:06 AM
I don't see "S27900" in the Chromo2 list. The last one listed is "S27802". Do you have coordinates?

S27900 is at 2681879, G to T

Per Alex: http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php

VinceT
11-26-2015, 01:20 AM
S27900 is at 2681879, G to T

Per Alex: http://www.ytree.net/SNPIndex.php
Ok, thanks. I just wanted to check if it came from the Genome of the Netherlands data. It's not there. It seems to be a new addition to BDNA since the Chromo2_v2 list was released. I'm glad to see they're making some progress.

GoldenHind
11-27-2015, 07:22 PM
Ok, thanks. I just wanted to check if it came from the Genome of the Netherlands data. It's not there. It seems to be a new addition to BDNA since the Chromo2_v2 list was released. I'm glad to see they're making some progress.

When you say this SNP isn't included in the Genomes of the Netherlands data, do you mean it was included in the test but not found, or not tested?

My guess is that it was found by BDNA in their recent sampling in Wales, and subsequently given an S designation. Running the STR signature in YSearch primarily results in a long list of Welsh surnames, with a very few of continental origin. These latter could be due to convergence or more recent migration. S27900, like the other new SNP below P312 L624/S389, appears to be primarily found in Britain.

VinceT
11-28-2015, 03:45 AM
When you say this SNP isn't included in the Genomes of the Netherlands data, do you mean it was included in the test but not found, or not tested?


Genome of the Netherlands (http://www.nlgenome.nl/) (GoNL) data was a variant-discovery project using next-generation sequencing via BGI Hong Kong, from a sample set of approximately 500 dutch males. BritainsDNA incorporated the anonymized novel Y-SNPs (observed in 2 or more males) into the Chromo2 chip design. This data is available from the GoNL Project download page, under the "GoNL SNPs release 2" link.

So the short answer is that it was observed in 0 or 1 samples on GoNL, or was otherwise filtered out.

Earl Davis
12-04-2015, 10:17 AM
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but 9464776-A-T seems to define a new clade at the first level under P312. It is shared by kits 51865 and 423789.

Earl.

GoldenHind
12-04-2015, 06:45 PM
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but 9464776-A-T seems to define a new clade at the first level under P312. It is shared by kits 51865 and 423789.

Earl.

That was fast. The Big Y raw data for the second of those individuals was only sent to Alex W. for analysis yesterday. I might point out that though one has ancestry to the London area and the other to North Carolina, it is very likely that both are originally of Scottish origin. They do not appear to be closely related, so it doesn't look like this will turn out to be private. Alex seems to be confident this is a new SNP under P312.

GoldenHind
12-15-2015, 12:26 AM
A couple of years ago I mentioned that I had found an STR cluster within P312** which consisted largely of Welsh surnames (see post#2 on the first page of this thread). I have just discovered that two people with Welsh surnames who fit this STR profile have had their Big Y raw data files analyzed by Alex W., and both are positive for a number of SNPs, including one called S27900 (presumably a BritainsDNA marker). An easy way to spot this cluster is they all have an otherwise rare 14 at DYS392. I think the indications are very strong that S27900 is a new SNP under P312, though it may very well be more than one step down from P312. I suspect it will primarily be found in Britain, and especially Wales.

S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.

A third person with a Welsh surname who got nothing below P312 in the Big Y has had his raw data analyzed by Alex, who found that he shares a number of SNPs below P312 with the other two mentioned above, including S27900, which I suspect will define this cluster. He also fits this Welsh STR cluster and with the distinctive 392 = 14. There are quite a few individuals in the FTDNA system with different Welsh surnames who fit this profile.

Earl Davis
12-16-2015, 10:01 PM
That was fast. The Big Y raw data for the second of those individuals was only sent to Alex W. for analysis yesterday. I might point out that though one has ancestry to the London area and the other to North Carolina, it is very likely that both are originally of Scottish origin. They do not appear to be closely related, so it doesn't look like this will turn out to be private. Alex seems to be confident this is a new SNP under P312.

It now has a name, A9063. Thanks to whoever submitted it to Yseq so quickly.

Earl.

GoldenHind
01-05-2016, 01:31 AM
A couple of years ago I mentioned that I had found an STR cluster within P312** which consisted largely of Welsh surnames (see post#2 on the first page of this thread). I have just discovered that two people with Welsh surnames who fit this STR profile have had their Big Y raw data files analyzed by Alex W., and both are positive for a number of SNPs, including one called S27900 (presumably a BritainsDNA marker). An easy way to spot this cluster is they all have an otherwise rare 14 at DYS392. I think the indications are very strong that S27900 is a new SNP under P312, though it may very well be more than one step down from P312. I suspect it will primarily be found in Britain, and especially Wales.

S27900 does not appear on the ISOGG list for R1b, even as an SNP under investigation. Nor does FTDNA test for it outside of the Big Y. Presumably BritainsDNA does, but I don't kmow if it's included in their Chromo 2 test or not.

A correction to the above post. S27900 is included in the New P312 SNP pack at FTDNA.

GoldenHind
01-05-2016, 06:14 PM
A fourth individual whose Big Y results showed nothing below P312 has now been identified as S27900+ by Alex W. All four have Welsh surnames, or at least surnames commonly found in Wales. Since this group has a very distinctive STR signature, a section (Ai) has been created on the P312 Project DNA results list of those likely to be within this subclade. I have little doubt this is an important group in Wales, with a probable presence in England as well. At this point I cannot say whether it will also be found on the continent.

GoldenHind
02-09-2016, 10:22 PM
A fourth individual whose Big Y results showed nothing below P312 has now been identified as S27900+ by Alex W. All four have Welsh surnames, or at least surnames commonly found in Wales. Since this group has a very distinctive STR signature, a section (Ai) has been created on the P312 Project DNA results list of those likely to be within this subclade. I have little doubt this is an important group in Wales, with a probable presence in England as well. At this point I cannot say whether it will also be found on the continent.

P312 pack results came in yesterday for two different individuals who were thought to be likely candidates for S27900, and both were indeed positive for it. Both have classic Welsh surnames and match a definite STR pattern for this group, which includes a distinctive 14 at DYS392.

GoldenHind
02-11-2016, 08:38 PM
Two more P312 pack results for people likely to be S27900 came in today, and both were positive. They follow the familiar pattern of Welsh surnames and matching the STR signature this group shares.

Gray Fox
02-11-2016, 09:23 PM
Might one of the surnames be Jones? I ask because I have a pseudo match with a person at twelve markers who bares that name. My surname groups distinctive 14 repeats at DYS392 causing the false match.

GoldenHind
02-11-2016, 11:22 PM
Might one of the surnames be Jones? I ask because I have a pseudo match with a person at twelve markers who bares that name. My surname groups distinctive 14 repeats at DYS392 causing the false match.

I don't think there is a Jones yet. However there are a number of different Welsh surnames that have tested S27900+, and considering that the Welsh adopted surnames at a late date, it is a good possibility that any Welsh surname might have this marker. I would say that anyone who is R1b-P312, has a Welsh surname and a 14 at 392 is very likely to be S27900+.

GoldenHind
03-02-2016, 12:31 AM
Another L624+ from someone in Scotland in today. He has ancestry to the Isle of Mull in the 18C. His surname appears to be most common in west central Scotland. Doubtless Castle3 can tell us more about it. Although there is one with ancestry from Cornwall, L624 appears to be a distinctly Scottish marker.

L624 is included in the FTDNA R1b-P312 SNP pack, but I have seen indications there may be problems with getting accurate reads in the panel. However when ordered as an a la carte SNP test with FTDNA, it seems to be working properly.

castle3
03-02-2016, 08:47 AM
Another L624+ from someone in Scotland in today. He has ancestry to the Isle of Mull in the 18C. His surname appears to be most common in west central Scotland. Doubtless Castle3 can tell us more about it. Although there is one with ancestry from Cornwall, L624 appears to be a distinctly Scottish marker.

L624 is included in the FTDNA R1b-P312 SNP pack, but I have seen indications there may be problems with getting accurate reads in the panel. However when ordered as an a la carte SNP test with FTDNA, it seems to be working properly.

There is a strong north-east Scottish bias for L624+ testees. However, an L624+ hotspot can also be found in Argyll & includes some interesting surnames. There are also two important surnames from Dumfries & Galloway that are mainstream for L624+. When using Ancestry's 1841 Census Surname Maps, Aberdeenshire is ranked either the top, or second, most common region for 25% of the L624+ testees. The vast majority of the L624+ testees hail from north of the Antonine Wall/Forth-Clyde isthmus.

The common ancestor for many of these surnames probably occurred in the Iron Age, or earlier.

GoldenHind
03-03-2016, 09:50 PM
Lest anyone think the Welsh S27900 group is rare, one of them in the R1b-P312 Project has 60 matches at 67 markers, and the vast majority of them have different Welsh surnames. They almost certainly have the S27900 marker.

MitchellSince1893
03-04-2016, 12:07 AM
...one of them in the R1b-P312 Project has 60 matches at 67 markers...
I'm so jealous. I've got none after 3.5 years of waiting. :blah:

Why yes; I would like some cheese with my whine.

EastAnglian
04-08-2016, 11:46 AM
I'm so jealous. I've got none after 3.5 years of waiting. :blah:

Why yes; I would like some cheese with my whine.

None since 2008, I win!. :P

GoldenHind
04-12-2016, 09:15 PM
FTDNA has now added Z29645 and L27900 to their R1b tree. Presumably both can now be ordered a la carte.

castle3
04-13-2016, 05:31 AM
FTDNA has now added Z29645 and L27900 to their R1b tree. Presumably both can now be ordered a la carte.

I've recently been reclassified by FTDNA as R-Z30600. They previously had me listed as R-P312, even though I had tested positive for S389/L624 ages ago. Z30600 sits under S389/L624, so good to see FTDNA finally catching up.

GoldenHind
04-17-2016, 10:40 PM
I should leave this to Castle 3, as he is the source of this information. Alex W. has now identified a Scottish clan chief as P312>L624+. I won't mention the name of the clan due to privacy concerns.

castle3
04-18-2016, 07:25 AM
I should leave this to Castle 3, as he is the source of this information. Alex W. has now identified a Scottish clan chief as P312>L624+. I won't mention the name of the clan due to privacy concerns.

Thanks, Goldenhind. I can say that it's a north-west Highland clan surname.

brianlm1
04-28-2016, 03:04 AM
I am hoping that P312>A9063 will lob in Scotland as well.

GoldenHind
04-28-2016, 10:57 PM
I am hoping that P312>A9063 will lob in Scotland as well.

Since your surname is Scottish and the only other person who has been identified as A9063+ apparently has ancestry from Scotland, I don't have much doubt that it is present in Scotland.

GoldenHind
05-01-2016, 08:49 PM
I've recently been reclassified by FTDNA as R-Z30600. They previously had me listed as R-P312, even though I had tested positive for S389/L624 ages ago. Z30600 sits under S389/L624, so good to see FTDNA finally catching up.

I just got around to looking into this. FTDNA has added Z30600 to their tree. Alex W. places Z30600 under L624, as you say. However there is one person in the P312 project who tested Z30600+ but L624- in the P312 SNP pack. The only possible explanations are:

1) The position of Z30600 under L624 on Alex's tree is incorrect
2) Either the L624- or the Z30600+ result by FTDNA in the above person is incorrect
3) Z30600 is found both in and outside of L624
4) L624 is subject to a back mutation

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the second option.

castle3
05-01-2016, 09:13 PM
I just got around to looking into this. FTDNA has added Z30600 to their tree. Alex W. places Z30600 under L624, as you say. However there is one person in the P312 project who tested Z30600+ but L624- in the P312 SNP pack. The only possible explanations are:

1) The position of Z30600 under L624 on Alex's tree is incorrect
2) Either the L624- or the Z30600+ result by FTDNA in the above person is incorrect
3) Z30600 is found both in and outside of L624
4) L624 is subject to a back mutation

If I were a betting man, I would put my money on the second option.

Agreed. I'm afraid FTDNA have problems with L624.

jtlefebvre
05-29-2016, 10:40 AM
Another P312+ L21- U152- DF19- L238- DF99- DF27-

Have received FTDNA Big-Y results and test P312+. My most distant known Y-ancestor was living in West-Flanders in the 1680s, but had a variant of a French surname (Lefebure) which means "smith" or "blacksmith." What would be the best way to have my results evaluated? FTDNA kit# 481082. According to FTDNA, I have no genetic matches greater than 24 markers.

GoldenHind
05-29-2016, 11:03 AM
Another P312+ L21- U152- DF19- L238- DF99- DF27-

Have received FTDNA Big-Y results and test P312+. My most distant known Y-ancestor was living in West-Flanders in the 1680s, but had a variant of a French surname (Lefebure) which means "smith" or "blacksmith." What would be the best way to have my results evaluated? FTDNA kit# 481082. According to FTDNA, I have no genetic matches greater than 24 markers.

Since you are a member of the FTDNA P312 and subclades project, we can get your Big Y raw data analyzed by Alex W at no cost. However in having a quick look at your results, it doesn't look like you are P312+. Alex is currently away for a vacation, but I will arrange something when he gets back.

jtlefebvre
05-29-2016, 11:38 AM
Thanks GoldenHind.

The FTDNA haplotree says that I test positive for the following:

+M269 +CTS12478 +PF6507 +PF6509 +PF6500 +PF6494 +PF6495 +L773 +PF6425 +L482 +PF6430 +L265 +PF6432 +PF6434 +PF6438 +CTS2664 +CTS3575 +L500 +PF6409 +L483 +L407 +s3 +YSC0000225
+L150
+L23
+L51
+L151 +L11 +L52 +P310 +YSC0000082 +YSC0000191
+P311
+P312 (CTS12684 not tested)

And negative for these:
-L21
-U152
-DF19
-L238
-DF99
-DF27

Did they get it wrong?

GoldenHind
05-31-2016, 04:27 PM
Thanks GoldenHind.

The FTDNA haplotree says that I test positive for the following:

+M269 +CTS12478 +PF6507 +PF6509 +PF6500 +PF6494 +PF6495 +L773 +PF6425 +L482 +PF6430 +L265 +PF6432 +PF6434 +PF6438 +CTS2664 +CTS3575 +L500 +PF6409 +L483 +L407 +s3 +YSC0000225
+L150
+L23
+L51
+L151 +L11 +L52 +P310 +YSC0000082 +YSC0000191
+P311
+P312 (CTS12684 not tested)

And negative for these:
-L21
-U152
-DF19
-L238
-DF99
-DF27

Did they get it wrong?

It appears FTDNA is unable to make up their mind about you. When I first checked, they had you classified as R-M269. Now they have changed you to R-BY4762, which is beneath L238. However they only show you as "presumed" positive for L238. Something is definitely wrong here. I'm afraid we will have to wait until we can get your raw data analyzed by Alex once he returns. It appears that the P312+ result is accurate however, so we just need to determine your correct subclade.

jtlefebvre
05-31-2016, 04:54 PM
Thanks GoldenHind!

I just received a list of 144 Big-Y matches from FTDNA. About half of them share 17 novel variants, and the rest share no novel variants with me. The locations of the matches are all over the map - many with English/Irish/Scottish surnames, some Spanish, Scandinavian, German, and Eastern European (including several Jewish surnames), but no French that I noted and only one from Belgium. Curious. There is next to nothing written about R-BY476 that comes up in a Google search, so I assume it is a relatively new discovery.

Looking forward to Alex's evaluation ...

Sven Vermaete
06-02-2016, 06:31 AM
Thanks GoldenHind!

I just received a list of 144 Big-Y matches from FTDNA. About half of them share 17 novel variants, and the rest share no novel variants with me. The locations of the matches are all over the map - many with English/Irish/Scottish surnames, some Spanish, Scandinavian, German, and Eastern European (including several Jewish surnames), but no French that I noted and only one from Belgium. Curious. There is next to nothing written about R-BY476 that comes up in a Google search, so I assume it is a relatively new discovery.

Looking forward to Alex's evaluation ...

There is something weird with your result. You are negative for L238 and only positive for the downstream snp by4672. I think that by4672 is probably not a reliable snp or its position is wrong on the tree.

jtlefebvre
06-02-2016, 09:15 PM
Hi Sven,

They do seem to be odd results.

There are two BY4672+ on The Big Tree, Halvorson FTDNA: 436263 and Joneson FTDNA: 382540, both from Norway. It would be interesting if they also have similar issues.

Joel

jtlefebvre
06-04-2016, 02:55 PM
In looking at the terminal SNPs of my Big-Y matches, nearly all of them are R-DF27. On my Big-Y Data spreadsheet, DF27 is listed as "unknown" and therefore assumed to be negative. Could it be that BY4672+ is downstream of DF27 instead of L238?

jtlefebvre
06-07-2016, 02:05 PM
FTDNA just changed my haplogroup to R-P312 - and I'm being offered a special price, $119, for the R1b-P312 SNP Pack. I thought that the Big-Y was comprehensive. Do I really need to order the 312 SNP Pack?

GoldenHind
06-09-2016, 05:37 PM
FTDNA just changed my haplogroup to R-P312 - and I'm being offered a special price, $119, for the R1b-P312 SNP Pack. I thought that the Big-Y was comprehensive. Do I really need to order the 312 SNP Pack?

I suggest you wait until we get your Big Y raw data analyzed, as the P312 pack primarily consists of DF19 and L238 SNPs, with a few others, which should be included in your Big Y test.

gotten
06-09-2016, 06:28 PM
FTDNA just changed my haplogroup to R-P312 - and I'm being offered a special price, $119, for the R1b-P312 SNP Pack. I thought that the Big-Y was comprehensive. Do I really need to order the 312 SNP Pack?

Preliminary results by Alex Williamson show a DF27>ZZ12>CTS3919 result (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1609) shared with a Spanish 1kG kit (on the order of 4000-5000 years ago?).
There is absolutely no need to order any SNP packs.

llanfihangel
06-20-2016, 06:02 AM
I tested with the S27900 Haplotype and I have been looking around for others on FTDNA using the 392=14 and 464 c,d = 16,18 off modal values. I have found 46 so far. More interestingly, I have identified 19 kits with identical markers to all of GoldenHinds 9 markers. (I miss by one, having a S456 =16)

The nine off modals in question are:
392 = 14 (this value seems to be universal in this variety)
449 > 29
464c = 16
464d = 18
456 < 16
447 = 24
442 = 11
444 = 11
390 = 23

Of course, I have been looking to see where the common ancestor might have come from, and the majority have obvious Welsh names. There are several Maddox variants, Williams, and Powell among them.
Most of the kits originated from the US, and the ones from Wales trace back to the 1600s.

Thanks
Llanfi

castle3
06-20-2016, 12:26 PM
S27900+ looks to be Ancient Welsh. BDNA calculate that 2% of Welsh people are of that stock. It is supposedly most common in South Wales.

GoldenHind
06-20-2016, 06:44 PM
I tested with the S27900 Haplotype and I have been looking around for others on FTDNA using the 392=14 and 464 c,d = 16,18 off modal values. I have found 46 so far. More interestingly, I have identified 19 kits with identical markers to all of GoldenHinds 9 markers. (I miss by one, having a S456 =16)

The nine off modals in question are:
392 = 14 (this value seems to be universal in this variety)
449 > 29
464c = 16
464d = 18
456 < 16
447 = 24
442 = 11
444 = 11
390 = 23

Of course, I have been looking to see where the common ancestor might have come from, and the majority have obvious Welsh names. There are several Maddox variants, Williams, and Powell among them.
Most of the kits originated from the US, and the ones from Wales trace back to the 1600s.

Thanks
Llanfi

Thanks, very interesting. I first discovered this STR signature a couple of years ago poking around with the P312** group and then confirming it with Ysearch. The methodology was of course developed by Ken Nordtvedt, who demonstrated its validity. Since then everyone matching this signature who has tested for it has been positive for S27900.

When looking at any group which shares a large number of off modal marker values, one should keep in mind that all STR markers mutate, and that not everyone in a valid STR cluster will necessarily match every off modal. This is illustrated by the fact that you only match 8 of the 9 markers. While 392 = 14 does appear to be universal in this case (and that is a very stable marker), there may well be some whose in this variety whose line has mutated back to the P312 modal 13 there. I also found that some of those who otherwise are very good matches to this STR profile have the modal 24 at 390 instead of 23, and that a majority of that subset had English rather than Welsh surnames. This led me to suspect that this is originally a Brythonic group, and that those who have 390 = 23 are a Welsh descendant variety. Some have proposed that the Welsh group may be descendants of some ancient Welsh chieftain or king, and I consider this a definite possibility.

I also found a few continentals who were pretty good matches to this signature. While this might be due to the principal of convergence, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that this could be a sign of an origin on the continent.

GoldenHind
07-15-2016, 10:00 PM
A very interesting result in yesterday. Someone with Cornish ancestry who was previously in the P312** group got results from his P312 SNP pack test, and he is Z30600+.

FTDNA has recently added Z30600 to their tree, placing it directly below P312.

However analyses of several Big Y results by Alex W. shows that Z30600 is below L624(S389), which in turn is below ZZ37 and ZZ38, which encompasses a number of subclades below P312. The person in question got an asterisk from FTDNA for L624 in his P312 pack results, meaning a no call or heterozygous. I have seen another example of a P312 pack test with the same result. I don't have much doubt that L624 is not working very well, if at all, in FTDNA's P312 pack test. They do offer it individually, where they seem to be able to get a result, though it often takes some time.

We have several people who have tested L624+ or S389+ (they are alternate names for the same SNP), either with FTDNA or BritainsDNA. Eight of of them have done the Big Y, and seven of those are also Z30600+. The one whose Big Y results were L624+ Z30600- also has Cornish ancestry.

There seems to be little doubt that the L624+ is very closely associated with Scotland. So is it a coincidence that the two who aren't both have ancestry from Cornwall? If not, what is the connection between Scotland and Cornwall?

castle3
07-16-2016, 03:19 AM
There was a link between Cornwall, Wales, Ireland & Scotland, I believe, Goldenhind. I think the Beaker Folk worked with metal from Cornwall. Cornish gold & other metal products are found in artefacts in Ireland and Scotland. There is a Beaker pottery connection between Llannon, Carmarthenshire & Ballymenach, Argyll. This could be via the Atlantic Trade route, or have been the result of metalworkers entering north-east Scotland & working their way down the Great Glen Way to Argyll etc. There are L624 hot-spots are in Aberdeenshire & Argyll.

L624 (Ancient Scottish, for want of another title) lies adjacent to S27900 (Ancient Welsh?). I'm told that 2% of Welsh folk are S27900, mainly in south Wales. Over 1% of north-east Scots are thought to be L624.

Experts Childe & Hubert supported differing views re Beaker Folk arriving in Scotland. From memory, Hubert said they arrived in Scotland from the Continent via the Firth of Forth. Childe thought they used the Atlantic Trade route from Iberia & up into Cornwall, Wales, Ireland & Scotland.

It would be useful to know if the Cornish surnames are mainstream or singletons.

jimeus13
08-01-2016, 09:58 AM
A very interesting result in yesterday. Someone with Cornish ancestry who was previously in the P312** group got results from his P312 SNP pack test, and he is Z30600+.

FTDNA has recently added Z30600 to their tree, placing it directly below P312.

However analyses of several Big Y results by Alex W. shows that Z30600 is below L624(S389), which in turn is below ZZ37 and ZZ38, which encompasses a number of subclades below P312. The person in question got an asterisk from FTDNA for L624 in his P312 pack results, meaning a no call or heterozygous. I have seen another example of a P312 pack test with the same result. I don't have much doubt that L624 is not working very well, if at all, in FTDNA's P312 pack test. They do offer it individually, where they seem to be able to get a result, though it often takes some time.

We have several people who have tested L624+ or S389+ (they are alternate names for the same SNP), either with FTDNA or BritainsDNA. Eight of of them have done the Big Y, and seven of those are also Z30600+. The one whose Big Y results were L624+ Z30600- also has Cornish ancestry.

There seems to be little doubt that the L624+ is very closely associated with Scotland. So is it a coincidence that the two who aren't both have ancestry from Cornwall? If not, what is the connection between Scotland and Cornwall?
Hi GoldenHind and Castle 3,I have just joined this site after searching Z30600. It is possible I am the person you are referring to with the Cornish ancestry. ftDNA has shown me as Z30600 as has Yseq.
What do you need to know?

castle3
08-01-2016, 02:10 PM
Could you PM me with your surname & kit number? It'd be useful to know your roots.

joeflood
08-01-2016, 04:03 PM
We have made quite some progress in the CORNWALL project over the past year, establish pockets of 'unique Cornish DNA' in all sorts of eras. I think it is fairly clear the centre of the Beaker Atlantic spread was in SW England with maritime exchange into Iberia, Ireland, the continent and even the middle Rhine, but the Firth of Forth is a new one. See my L21 draft paper which has had massive interest
https://rmit.academia.edu/JoeFlood/Drafts;
the prehistory of L21 is rather easier to trace than other L151/P311 descendants.

We are now really seeing some major expansion in P312**. With all the equivalent SNPs of L21, the date of P312 must be pushed well back close to 3000 BC.

'Ancient Scottish" is fairly clearly L21>L513 and lines of L21>DF21, but there were definitely traces of P312 minority lines there from very early on. "very ancient Scottish" if you like. With regard to L624/Z30600 in the CORNWALL project, we have only EUSTICE who is a fairly recent ARMSTRONG relative. However there are others, MUGFORD in particular, who is something different. So - not exactly singletons, there seems to be a genuine early prresence in Cornwall as in Argyll.


Joe Flood, admin CORNWALL



There was a link between Cornwall, Wales, Ireland & Scotland, I believe, Goldenhind. I think the Beaker Folk worked with metal from Cornwall. Cornish gold & other metal products are found in artefacts in Ireland and Scotland. There is a Beaker pottery connection between Llannon, Carmarthenshire & Ballymenach, Argyll. This could be via the Atlantic Trade route, or have been the result of metalworkers entering north-east Scotland & working their way down the Great Glen Way to Argyll etc. There are L624 hot-spots are in Aberdeenshire & Argyll.

L624 (Ancient Scottish, for want of another title) lies adjacent to S27900 (Ancient Welsh?). I'm told that 2% of Welsh folk are S27900, mainly in south Wales. Over 1% of north-east Scots are thought to be L624.

Experts Childe & Hubert supported differing views re Beaker Folk arriving in Scotland. From memory, Hubert said they arrived in Scotland from the Continent via the Firth of Forth. Childe thought they used the Atlantic Trade route from Iberia & up into Cornwall, Wales, Ireland & Scotland.

It would be useful to know if the Cornish surnames are mainstream or singletons.

GoldenHind
08-01-2016, 06:32 PM
Hi GoldenHind and Castle 3,I have just joined this site after searching Z30600. It is possible I am the person you are referring to with the Cornish ancestry. ftDNA has shown me as Z30600 as has Yseq.
What do you need to know?

I am reasonably certain you are the person I was referring to. I didn't mention your name as I don't like to discuss other people's DNA results on public forums without their permission. I will contact you privately, but refer you to Castle 3 who has a special interest in L624/S389 and its history.

DBowden
08-02-2016, 01:39 AM
Does anyone else match this P312 subclade or have any information as to its possible place of origin?
R-Y22342

P312, R-L21, R-DF13 , R-Z255 , R-L159.2 , R-Y16467, R-Y12458 , R-Y13226 , R-A5411 , R-Y22342

This is a 'Y DNA mystery genealogy line' that is a dead end.
The earliest known ancestor is Nicholas Bourden that first shows up in records as a will examiner on Isle of Wight VA.
Born ca 1700
Parents or place of origin unknown.
Nicholas married into the Davis/Green/Moone families of Isle of Wight VA.
His wife was Prudence Davis of Isle of Wight.

The surname shifted for reasons unknown from Bourden to Bowden.

swid
08-02-2016, 03:01 AM
This question doesn't really belong in this thread (the Z255 subforum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?132-Z255) is a better home for it), but that SNP is in a small cluster (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1518) with (at least) two other surnames, Byrne and Burns. YFull estimates the TRMCA of that SNP around 450 years before present (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y22342/).

GoldenHind
08-02-2016, 06:27 PM
This question doesn't really belong in this thread (the Z255 subforum (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?132-Z255) is a better home for it), but that SNP is in a small cluster (http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1518) with (at least) two other surnames, Byrne and Burns. YFull estimates the TRMCA of that SNP around 450 years before present (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Y22342/).

Thanks. I was going to point out that this thread is about those who are negative for not only L21, but also for U152, DF27, DF19, DF99 and L238, but you beat me to it.

razyn
08-08-2016, 01:07 PM
For those trees that don't believe in ZZ SNPs (or other uncooperative markers of phylogenetic branching, one might almost say, "reality"), I suppose the SNPs PH2278 and Z39300 have to be considered P312** (the real deal). As if.

Anyway I've asked YFull to take them off their DF27 list. Alex has three of the four BigY-tested examples (so far) in his P312>Z40481>ZZ37 group:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=202&star=false

The fourth example has the surname Rogers, and is visible in the Shared Novel Variants of the other three -- if one clicks on Show All, and waits long enough, and scrolls down to the SNPs shared by three other BigY-tested kits. PH2278 is at 16441979, A to G; Z39300 is at 8823895, C to T.

llanfihangel
11-27-2016, 10:03 AM
May I add Maddox to the list: there is one confirmed S27900 in FTDNA and several more (unconfirmed) that match the STR signature. One of the Williams has a Madoc ancestor. Price is the modern version of ap Rhys, and some of Breconshire Jenkins family were related to the Madocs and the Powells in the 1600s.

A few of the US kits have traced their ancestors back to Wales, and they seem to cluster in the early 1600s. Welsh names were usually patrynomic before 1600, but most immigrants assumed fixed names when they landed in the US.

Madoc, Powell, and Rhys are certainly Brythonic and are well-documented in the history of Wales. There are also close, but not identical, Y-111 matches between the confirmed S27900 Williams, Powell, Maddox, Jenkins and Price, and almost identical matches between members of the (potential) Maddox, Powell, and Williams kits. While the latter matches are to be expected from descendents in the US, the S27900 and Y-111 matches between the five families in Wales seem to indicate a common ancestor within a "historic" time frame. Probably a Powell or a Madoc.

Thanks for your attention, I will be most interested in your comments! :):):)






Thanks, very interesting. I first discovered this STR signature a couple of years ago poking around with the P312** group and then confirming it with Ysearch. The methodology was of course developed by Ken Nordtvedt, who demonstrated its validity. Since then everyone matching this signature who has tested for it has been positive for S27900.

When looking at any group which shares a large number of off modal marker values, one should keep in mind that all STR markers mutate, and that not everyone in a valid STR cluster will necessarily match every off modal. This is illustrated by the fact that you only match 8 of the 9 markers. While 392 = 14 does appear to be universal in this case (and that is a very stable marker), there may well be some whose in this variety whose line has mutated back to the P312 modal 13 there. I also found that some of those who otherwise are very good matches to this STR profile have the modal 24 at 390 instead of 23, and that a majority of that subset had English rather than Welsh surnames. This led me to suspect that this is originally a Brythonic group, and that those who have 390 = 23 are a Welsh descendant variety. Some have proposed that the Welsh group may be descendants of some ancient Welsh chieftain or king, and I consider this a definite possibility.

I also found a few continentals who were pretty good matches to this signature. While this might be due to the principal of convergence, I wouldn't rule out the possibility that this could be a sign of an origin on the continent.

GoldenHind
11-27-2016, 10:13 PM
May I add Maddox to the list: there is one confirmed S27900 in FTDNA and several more (unconfirmed) that match the STR signature. One of the Williams has a Madoc ancestor. Price is the modern version of ap Rhys, and some of Breconshire Jenkins family were related to the Madocs and the Powells in the 1600s.

A few of the US kits have traced their ancestors back to Wales, and they seem to cluster in the early 1600s. Welsh names were usually patrynomic before 1600, but most immigrants assumed fixed names when they landed in the US.

Madoc, Powell, and Rhys are certainly Brythonic and are well-documented in the history of Wales. There are also close, but not identical, Y-111 matches between the confirmed S27900 Williams, Powell, Maddox, Jenkins and Price, and almost identical matches between members of the (potential) Maddox, Powell, and Williams kits. While the latter matches are to be expected from descendents in the US, the S27900 and Y-111 matches between the five families in Wales seem to indicate a common ancestor within a "historic" time frame. Probably a Powell or a Madoc.

Thanks for your attention, I will be most interested in your comments! :):):)

There is one more Welsh surname beyond those you list among the 9 individuals in the S27900 section (Fc.) of the P312 Project (who I suspect is probably you). I have just discovered another person among the matches of one of the nine who has tested S27900 and has yet another Welsh surname, with ancestry in Glamorganshire. I will contact him and see if I can get him to join the P312 Project. A quick check of the matches of one of those already identified as S27900+ shows he has 11 matches at 111 markers, with GD's ranging from 7 to 9. The same person also has 65 matches at 67 markers. I suspect most if not all of them are S27900+, though very few have tested for it. All those who have got positive results. None of those who haven't have a result beyond P312. Someone should start contacting these people and urging them to test for S27900.


I have no doubt that S27900 is a significant maker in Wales, and it dates to long before the 1600's. It very probably was present in other parts of Britain in pre-Roman times as well, as there are a number of English surnames among those whose markers and matches strongly suggest they are S27900 as well.

GoldenHind
11-30-2016, 07:50 PM
There is one more Welsh surname beyond those you list among the 9 individuals in the S27900 section (Fc.) of the P312 Project (who I suspect is probably you). I have just discovered another person among the matches of one of the nine who has tested S27900 and has yet another Welsh surname, with ancestry in Glamorganshire. I will contact him and see if I can get him to join the P312 Project. A quick check of the matches of one of those already identified as S27900+ shows he has 11 matches at 111 markers, with GD's ranging from 7 to 9. The same person also has 65 matches at 67 markers. I suspect most if not all of them are S27900+, though very few have tested for it. All those who have got positive results. None of those who haven't have a result beyond P312. Someone should start contacting these people and urging them to test for S27900.


I have no doubt that S27900 is a significant maker in Wales, and it dates to long before the 1600's. It very probably was present in other parts of Britain in pre-Roman times as well, as there are a number of English surnames among those whose markers and matches strongly suggest they are S27900 as well.

The person referred to above in bold now has joined the R-P312 Project. He has 9 matches at 111 markers, with a GD ranging from 7 to 9. They include five different surnames, all Welsh. The four who have tested for S27900 all have positive results. He has 51 matches at 67 markers.

I don't see any reason to regard S27900 as a rare subclade of P312. It's just that it's new and very few people have tested for it. Anyone who has a Welsh surname and 14 at DYS392 is very probably S27900+, though I have no doubt that this subclade is present in England as well as Wales.

llanfihangel
12-02-2016, 05:59 AM
I will keep my eye on the FTDNA P312 Project. FTDNA has that "big Y" test and I can't justify spending that much on it as I already have Y-111. FTDNA doesn't publish new S27900 data unless a client decides to join one of the Projects..
FTDNA hasn't found a close match with my surname so far, and that is why I'm so interested in this particular haplogroup. Maybe the Ap H in S27900 but although from Wales, a fair way from Breconshire...
Thank you for your comments!
Llanfihangel

razyn
02-23-2017, 11:43 PM
One of our BigY testers in the DF27 project has shown up positive for Z30597 -- which isn't actually under DF27, so I moved him to our subgroup Z. But that's an equivalent of L624/S389, downstream of ZZ37. So I guess you guys care. He's already on the Big Tree, I don't know for how long, because I rarely back out to see that much of it. (I get crazy just looking at the DF27 part.) Kit number is 39684.

GoldenHind
02-25-2017, 07:00 PM
One of our BigY testers in the DF27 project has shown up positive for Z30597 -- which isn't actually under DF27, so I moved him to our subgroup Z. But that's an equivalent of L624/S389, downstream of ZZ37. So I guess you guys care. He's already on the Big Tree, I don't know for how long, because I rarely back out to see that much of it. (I get crazy just looking at the DF27 part.) Kit number is 39684.

Thanks for pointing him out. He is very unusual as he is the only L624/S389+ person so far who is negative for Z30600. The Z30600 group is very strongly associated with Scotland.

dp
04-05-2017, 09:40 PM
434158: A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF27-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, L21-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51+, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, M269+, M335-, M343+, M478-, M73-, MC14-, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-

My mom's 3rd cousins seem to group with you guys.
Where too next?
dp :-)
PS: thanx razyn for the referral :-)

swid
04-06-2017, 03:43 PM
For curiosity's sake, it wouldn't hurt to test Z290 on that kit, as we now know that Z290+ L21- people exist.

GoldenHind
04-06-2017, 09:49 PM
434158: A1773-, A2150-, A274-, A4670-, A517-, BY2823-, BY2868-, BY575-, BY653-, CTS10429-, CTS11994-, CTS1751-, CTS3386-, CTS3937-, CTS4466-, CTS4528-, CTS5330-, CTS5689-, CTS6937-, CTS7763-, DF103-, DF110-, DF17-, DF19-, DF21-, DF27-, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF81-, DF83-, DF88-, DF95-, DF99-, F2017-, F2691-, F2863-, FGC10516-, FGC11134-, FGC13620-, FGC20761-, FGC22501-, FGC3861-, FGC396-, FGC5301-, FGC5336-, FGC5344-, FGC5345-, FGC5351-, FGC5354-, FGC5356-, FGC5367-, FGC5373-, FGC5494-, FGC5798-, L1065-, L1335-, L2-, L21-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L371-, L389+, L408-, L47-, L48-, L51+, L513-, L584-, L617-, L881-, M1994-, M222-, M269+, M335-, M343+, M478-, M73-, MC14-, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312+, PF3252-, PF6610-, PF6714-, PF7562-, PF7589-, PF7600-, S1026-, S1051-, S11493-, S11601-, S12025-, S1567-, S16264-, S1688-, S18632-, S18827-, S6317-, S7721-, SRY2627-, U106-, U152-, U198-, V88-, Y5058-, Z156-, Z16500-, Z17-, Z17300-, Z18-, Z1862-, Z195-, Z198-, Z209-, Z2103-, Z2109-, Z225-, Z251-, Z253-, Z2542-, Z255-, Z2573-, Z295-, Z3000-, Z301-, Z302-, Z326-, Z36-, Z367-, Z381-, Z49-, Z8-, Z8052-, Z9-

My mom's 3rd cousins seem to group with you guys.
Where too next?
dp :-)
PS: thanx razyn for the referral :-)

Most of those in the incorrectly labeled P312** group actually are in the P312 subclade Alex W. terms ZZ37 on his Big Tree.

http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=202

At present ZZ37 is composed of three subclades which are on the FTDNA P312 tree:

1) Z29646 The primary subclade here is S27900 which is concentrated in Wales.

2) Z30597 The primary subclade here is Z30600 primarily found in Scotland

3) Z39300 This appears to at least have an Irish component

Not all of these can be tested independently at FTDNA. However some are included in the FTDNA P312 SNP pack, which is what I would recommend for the next step.

If your cousin is in the FTDNA P312 Project, and you send me his name and kit number, I will see if there are any indications among his STR markers and matches as to which, if any of those, he is likely to be in. There are also a very few known examples of P312 who don't fall into the ZZ37 subclade.

GoldenHind
04-09-2017, 01:07 AM
DP,

I have looked at your cousin's kit and I suspect he is very probably in the P312 subclade ZZ37 which I mentioned above, probably in the Z39300 subclade. I am not entirely certain if he can order an a la carte test for Z39300. I advise contacting FTDNA and asking. If so, I would recommend he roll the dice and do it. Otherwise I would do the P32 SNP pack test. It tests for some of the markers in the ZZ37 subclade (including I believe ZZ37 and ZZ38, which appears to be phylogentically equivalent. However it does not appear to include Z39300. It does include X27900 and Z30600, but if he is Z39300 he will be negative for both of those.

The P312 SNP pack is in dire need of revision to include more SNPs in the ZZ37 subclade. Recent Big Y tests have greatly increased our knowledge of the group, and FTDNA has added several of them to their tree recently, but they don't appear to have got around to offering testing for them outside of the Big Y.

dwmyers
04-28-2017, 06:23 PM
By oral history, our family is German, and my Big Y test just came back as Z39300+. I'm in the P312 project as well, as well as our surname project. Kit # is N204505.

swid
04-28-2017, 08:38 PM
Welcome! Once they're available, please consider submitting your results to the Big Tree (http://ytree.net/Instructions.html), so you can be added to the R-Z39300 branch (http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1140).

GoldenHind
04-28-2017, 11:14 PM
By oral history, our family is German, and my Big Y test just came back as Z39300+. I'm in the P312 project as well, as well as our surname project. Kit # is N204505.

I will send you an email.

dwmyers
04-30-2017, 05:01 AM
Contributed to Big Tree. Spoken with at least one admin in P312. Considering getting a BAM file and giving that one to Yfull. I'll note while my family line can't get back to Germany, one person I match via STR has a terminal ancestor whose last name is Feicht. I'd say no proof, but surely a lot of smoke with this European connection.

GoldenHind
05-01-2017, 07:12 PM
Contributed to Big Tree. Spoken with at least one admin in P312. Considering getting a BAM file and giving that one to Yfull. I'll note while my family line can't get back to Germany, one person I match via STR has a terminal ancestor whose last name is Feicht. I'd say no proof, but surely a lot of smoke with this European connection.

I have done a little poking around and found that your family and Feicht share a number of off modal markers not found in the others in the Z36300 group, who all appear to be of British origin. I think it is quite possible that you are part of a previously undiscovered continental branch of Z39300 and of the ZZ37/38 subclade of P312.

ajc347
07-18-2017, 11:49 PM
I've received some further results from both FTDNA and YSEQ this evening and it looks like I am negative for all subclades under P312.

My results are P312+ (confirmed by FTDNA, YSEQ and Living DNA) and U152-, DF19-, L238-, DF99-, DF27-, A9063-, L21-, ZZ38-, Z40481-, and Y18209- (I have a no call for Z30600 but given that I'm negative for both ZZ38 and Z40481, I suspect that this would be negative as well).

It would appear that my correct designation (at the current time) is, therefore, P312*. :)

ajc347
08-04-2017, 08:29 PM
Following test results I've received from YSEQ this evening, I've finally been able to pin down a terminal SNP under P312 that I'm positive for, namely, BY20474. :)

FTDNA list this as being under ZZ37 in their haplotree and I was able to track this down based upon one of my three Y-STR 111 matches (all of which are in the same surname group as me), having this listed as his terminal SNP.

Interestingly, though, I've tested negative for both ZZ38 (at FTDNA) and Z40481 (at YSEQ) so I'm not quite sure how this would fit in with the P312 Big Tree as this tree suggests that ZZ37 and ZZ38 are equivalent SNP's and that both are downstream of Z40481.

At least I know that I'm no longer P312*. :)

GoldenHind
08-04-2017, 11:28 PM
Following test results I've received from YSEQ this evening, I've finally been able to pin down a terminal SNP under P312 that I'm positive for, namely, BY20474. :)

FTDNA list this as being under ZZ37 in their haplotree and I was able to track this down based upon one of my three Y-STR 111 matches (all of which are in the same surname group as me), having this listed as his terminal SNP.

Interestingly, though, I've tested negative for both ZZ38 (at FTDNA) and Z40481 (at YSEQ) so I'm not quite sure how this would fit in with the P312 Big Tree as this tree suggests that ZZ37 and ZZ38 are equivalent SNP's and that both are downstream of Z40481.

At least I know that I'm no longer P312*. :)

Yours is indeed a mysterious case. I have been meaning to contact you but haven't got around to it. It looks to me that either there is an error in your P312 SNP pack results, or that ZZ37 and ZZ38 are not in fact phylogenetically equivalent, and you are ZZ37+ but ZZ38-. You appear to be close;y related to some others who have what I suspect is a Scottish origin, and none of them has tested successfully for anything beyond P312.

I think it will take a Big Y test and a subsequent analysis of your raw data by Alex W. to resolve this mystery. I believe it's still on sale, so you may want to ponder ordering it.

Incidentally no one is truly P312*. All that designation really signifies is that their appropriate subclade has yet to be identified in another person. It simply isn't believable that someone's family line could go for several thousand years after the P312 mutation arose without having more SNPs. I was in that category for many years before the discovery of DF99, so I know how frustrating it is.

ajc347
08-05-2017, 12:24 AM
Thanks mate. :)

It's very interesting that you mention a possible Scottish connection.

I was born and bought up in Hampshire (where my family moved to in the 1890's) and my eldest paternal relative was born in Suffolk in 1789. Parish records suggest that he was born illegitimately and I have no known Scottish ancestry in my family tree.

My Y-STR data shows no identified matches for anyone bearing the same surname as me and I'm currently ungrouped in the FTDNA project for my surname. I do, though, match a significant number of people within another surname group (all of my 3 matches at 111 markers and 80% of my matches at 67 markers are within this group) so there is strong possibility that my paternal line may extend further back via this route.

The roots of this surname group are from Scotland and I've found evidence that families with that surname were living in Suffolk at the same time of the birth of my eldest ancestor (London aside, Suffolk appears to have had the highest concentration of this surname outside of Scotland and Northern England at the time in question).

I’ve previously never been able to account for the 10.4% Living DNA have assigned to Northern English areas (one of which directly borders Scotland) in my autosomal results and have always presumed that the Scottish elements have come from my maternal line (which is Irish). DNA Tribes also shows some clear Scottish ancestry in their results (again I’ve always presumed that this was tied in with my Irish ancestry etc). When I looked at the pictorial representation of the 1891 census on Ancestry for the second surname it was noticeably similar to my Living DNA map in respect of the North of England and parts of Scotland.

Matching the SNP of one of my FTDNA matches who is in a project with proven Scottish ancestry does certainly help cement together the strands of evidence which would suggest that a Scottish connection is indeed a distinct possibility.

I have a Y Elite 2.1 test in progress and it will be really interesting to see what the results of this are. :)

GoldenHind
08-28-2017, 07:55 PM
Someone with Portuguese ancestry came in at FTDNA as P312*. I note however that his DF27 result is listed as a no call , though they list it as "presumed negative." I have seen a few M343 tests come in recently with a no call for DF27 in cases where I thought it was likely to be positive. I wonder what's going on.

Earl Davis
09-11-2017, 08:14 AM
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but I notice that the 'Big Tree' for P312 no longer has any P312* people. Keyes who had been sitting lonely for some time as the sole P312* on the big tree has been matched with a new result for a Roberts. They appear to share two variant markers in common so we now have another named branch directly under P312 which the Big tree shows as BY25512.

GoldenHind
09-12-2017, 11:32 AM
Apologies if this has already been mentioned but I notice that the 'Big Tree' for P312 no longer has any P312* people. Keyes who had been sitting lonely for some time as the sole P312* on the big tree has been matched with a new result for a Roberts. They appear to share two variant markers in common so we now have another named branch directly under P312 which the Big tree shows as BY25512.

I have now added a new category in the DNA results section of the R-P312 project for these two: section I P312>BY22512. It also appears on FTDNA's P312 tree.

GoldenHind
09-12-2017, 11:37 AM
Someone with Portuguese ancestry came in at FTDNA as P312*. I note however that his DF27 result is listed as a no call , though they list it as "presumed negative." I have seen a few M343 tests come in recently with a no call for DF27 in cases where I thought it was likely to be positive. I wonder what's going on.

There is yet another case of someone getting a P312* result in the M343 backbone test with a no-call for DF27 [DF27*]. This time with an English surname. I am beginning to suspect there is a problem, at least in some cases, with the DF27 test which is run after getting negative results in the M343 test for the other P312 subclades.

ajc347
01-06-2018, 09:08 PM
Well, my FGC YElite 2.1 results arrived today and they have me back at P312 with 50 'high reliability' Private SNP's (with 45 of them at 99% reliability). I'm surprised that the test doesn't appear to have picked up BY20474 but I wonder whether one of my private SNP's will turn out to be synonymous with it. I'm really looking forward to the journey ahead. :)

ajc347
01-06-2018, 11:05 PM
As an update to my post above I think I've just found BY20474 in my list of private SNP's.

Alex's YTree site shows BY20474 as being at position 15875185-G-T in build 37 (hg19) and the Build 37 FGC results show 15875185 G-T FGC72622+

I'm guessing, therefore, that BY20474 = FGC72622. :)

GoldenHind
04-08-2018, 11:34 PM
It is time to form a new FTDNA project for the ZZ37/ZZ38 subclade. It should include all subgroups in that subclade, including both S27900 and Z30600. Is anyone interested in doing this? I am aware of at least one person in the S27900 group who is knowledgeable about that and would be interested in participating, but is reluctant to administer the entire project. Another person very familiar with Z30600 is interested, but circumstances prevent him from doing so at the moment.

Earl Davis
05-17-2018, 07:58 AM
I notice there is a new P312* on the Big Tree.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1&star=true

Earl.

GoldenHind
07-25-2018, 08:00 PM
A new project has just been formed for those in the P312>ZZ37/38 subclade. Most, though not all, of those previously characterized as P312* will be in this subclade.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14888-New-R1b-P312-Subclade-project-at-FTDNA-for-the-ZZ37-38-Subclade&p=447512&viewfull=1#post447512

Ohio
11-24-2018, 02:33 AM
I believe I am R-DF27 but am waiting on Living DNA to find out

GoldenHind
11-24-2018, 07:41 PM
I believe I am R-DF27 but am waiting on Living DNA to find out

I don't know the source of your map, but it doesn't match the known distribution of DF27 as a whole. It could possibly match some DF27 subclade.

ArmandoR1b
11-24-2018, 09:06 PM
I don't know the source of your map, but it doesn't match the known distribution of DF27 as a whole. It could possibly match some DF27 subclade.

He has R-M167 in his signature. Probably from 23andme results so he undoubtedly is positive for DF27. LivingDNA doesn't test for DF27 but it does test for subclades of DF27 such as M167/SRY2627.

The map looks to be from his autosomal DNA and made by Lukasz.

ArmandoR1b
11-24-2018, 09:08 PM
I believe I am R-DF27 but am waiting on Living DNA to find out
Yes, R-M167 is a subclade of DF27. Is your R-M167 from a 23andme test? If so that is a reliable result. We'll see if LivingDNA has added subclades of R-M167/SRY2627.

Ohio
11-24-2018, 09:59 PM
Yes, R-M167 is a subclade of DF27. Is your R-M167 from a 23andme test? If so that is a reliable result. We'll see if LivingDNA has added subclades of R-M167/SRY2627.

I took ancestry and uploaded the raw data to Morley dna Y predictor. I have seen online on of my direct paternal ancestors being listed as having this haplotype, and I have found a distant cousin with my lastname who said he took a Y test and this was his result as well.

ArmandoR1b
11-25-2018, 12:11 AM
I took ancestry and uploaded the raw data to Morley dna Y predictor. I have seen online on of my direct paternal ancestors being listed as having this haplotype, and I have found a distant cousin with my lastname who said he took a Y test and this was his result as well.

This thread is meant for people without a positive read on any of the subclades of DF27 which is indicated by DF27- in the title of the thread. The AncestryDNA test has a false negative of DF27. Your SRY2627 result is not a false positive. It is real. That means that you are positive for the upstream SNP of DF27.

GoldenHind
12-12-2018, 12:08 AM
I have noticed a couple of examples of people who have done the R1b M343 Backbone test at FTDNA who are listed as P312*, but appear to me to be good candidates for the ZZ37 subclade. What is important is that ZZ37 and downstream markers appear in black on their haplotree page, which indicates a presumed negative result, even though as far as I can tell the M343 test does not include any of these markers. They should appear in blue, which indicates untested downstream markers.

R.Rocca
04-08-2019, 08:12 PM
For those looking for potential hotspots of DF19, A9063, Y18209, FGC84729 (and DF99), L238, BY25512, perhaps this might be of use. I cross checked the old Ramos-Luis (2009)/Busby(2011) data with that of the DF27 paper by Solé-Morata (2017). Here are the frequencies of P312(xU152,xDF27,xL21):

Auvergne (South Central France): 22.47%
Brittany (North West France): 18.05% (warning, the sample count is not the same)
Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur (South East France): 17.90%
Île-de-France (North Central France): 12.49%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (North France): 8.90%
Alsace (East France): 3.75%
Midi-Pyrénées (South West France): 24.74% (warning, the sample count is not the same)

Even if we take the remaining P312(xU152,DF27,L21) into account, U152 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Île-de-France, whereas L21 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Brittany. The frequencies of P312(xU152,DF27,L21) in Auvergne, Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur and Midi-Pyrénées are too large to say that either U152 or DF27 will end up being the most frequent there. Please note that the sample sizes for Brittany and Midi-Pyrénées were different, although it doesn't seem to matter much for Brittany where L21 is king. Surprisingly, we cannot say that DF27 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in any part of France, although we can probably say that its parent Z11 is based on the frequency of children DF27 and U152.

Webb
04-10-2019, 06:58 PM
For those looking for potential hotspots of DF19, A9063, Y18209, FGC84729 (and DF99), L238, BY25512, perhaps this might be of use. I cross checked the old Ramos-Luis (2009)/Busby(2011) data with that of the DF27 paper by Solé-Morata (2017). Here are the frequencies of P312(xU152,xDF27,xL21):

Auvergne (South Central France): 22.47%
Brittany (North West France): 18.05% (warning, the sample count is not the same)
Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur (South East France): 17.90%
Île-de-France (North Central France): 12.49%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (North France): 8.90%
Alsace (East France): 3.75%
Midi-Pyrénées (South West France): 24.74% (warning, the sample count is not the same)

Even if we take the remaining P312(xU152,DF27,L21) into account, U152 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Île-de-France, whereas L21 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Brittany. The frequencies of P312(xU152,DF27,L21) in Auvergne, Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur and Midi-Pyrénées are too large to say that either U152 or DF27 will end up being the most frequent there. Please note that the sample sizes for Brittany and Midi-Pyrénées were different, although it doesn't seem to matter much for Brittany where L21 is king. Surprisingly, we cannot say that DF27 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in any part of France, although we can probably say that its parent Z11 is based on the frequency of children DF27 and U152.

I have an excel spreadsheet that lists the results from mainly Myres and Underhill. So when I was searching for the Ramos-Luis paper I came across this: "Evidence of Pre-Roman Tribal Genetic Structure in Basques from Uniparentally Inherited Markers", Begoña Martínez-Cruz, Christine Harmant, Daniel E. Platt, Wolfgang Haak, Jeremy Manry, Eva Ramos-Luis, David F. Soria-Hernanz, Frédéric Bauduer, Jasone Salaberria, Bernard Oyharçabal, Lluis Quintana-Murci, David Comas, the Genographic Consortium.

First Published: "Molecular Biology and Evolution, Volume 29, Issue 9, September 2012, Pages 2211–2222, https://doi.org/10.1093/molbev/mss091, Published: 12 March 2012"

This study is interesting as they looked for U152, L2, L20, L21, SRY2627, M153, U106, P312 and a number of I's and J's. But they had 10 Basque sampling areas, 3 French sampling areas and 5 Spanish sampling areas.

Total Sampled: 835
P312: 337; Highest was 35 in Bizkaia
L21: 115; Highest was 13 in SW Gipuzkoa
M153: 109; Highest was 23 in Zuberoa
SRY2627: 67; Highest was 9 in Bearn

Notice that L21 is highest overall with the caveat that P312 is most probably other DF27 clades minus SRY2627 and M153. Outside of the 23 M153 in Gipuzkoa, M153 was not found higher than 10 in any of the other areas.

GoldenHind
04-10-2019, 07:43 PM
For those looking for potential hotspots of DF19, A9063, Y18209, FGC84729 (and DF99), L238, BY25512, perhaps this might be of use. I cross checked the old Ramos-Luis (2009)/Busby(2011) data with that of the DF27 paper by Solé-Morata (2017). Here are the frequencies of P312(xU152,xDF27,xL21):

Auvergne (South Central France): 22.47%
Brittany (North West France): 18.05% (warning, the sample count is not the same)
Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur (South East France): 17.90%
Île-de-France (North Central France): 12.49%
Nord-Pas-de-Calais (North France): 8.90%
Alsace (East France): 3.75%
Midi-Pyrénées (South West France): 24.74% (warning, the sample count is not the same)

Even if we take the remaining P312(xU152,DF27,L21) into account, U152 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Alsace, Nord-Pas-de-Calais and Île-de-France, whereas L21 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in Brittany. The frequencies of P312(xU152,DF27,L21) in Auvergne, Provence–Alpes-Côte d’Azur and Midi-Pyrénées are too large to say that either U152 or DF27 will end up being the most frequent there. Please note that the sample sizes for Brittany and Midi-Pyrénées were different, although it doesn't seem to matter much for Brittany where L21 is king. Surprisingly, we cannot say that DF27 is the most frequent subclade of P312 in any part of France, although we can probably say that its parent Z11 is based on the frequency of children DF27 and U152.

I am more than a little surprised by your projected figures. Since I have access to the data for the FTDNA P312 Project as well as some of its subclade projects, I have had a look through the data for the numbers of P312 (xU152,L21,DF27) for those who list France as their paternal country of origin. There is no doubt France is under-represented. Only 117 out of over 4700 P312 Project members list France as their paternal country of origin.

DF99 has the largest percentage of French origin of any of the less numerous P312 subclades: 6 out of 154 or just under 4%. However three of the six have origins from Normandy, two from Alsace and one from Savoy near the Swiss border, and the six are descendants of only three families.

DF19 has only four members (out of 409) with origins from France. Three of the four are from Normandy (one of those is from Guernsey) and there is just one from the far south of France (Herault).

L238 is extremely rare on the continent outside of Scandinavia. There are just four out of 180 members: two from Germany, one from Austria and one from Poland. None have origins rom France.

ZZ37 is overwhelmingly from Britain and Ireland. Out of 117 members, there are only three with origins on the continent: two from Finland and one from Germany. Again none from France.

There only four confirmed A9063 and two BY25515: all six have origins in the UK.

There are four confirmed Y18209: three list origins from the UK, but the fourth has what appears to be a French surname.

There is an interesting possibility. There is a single person who remains P312** on the Big Tree after doing the Big Y. Although Alex for some reason lists him as unknown, he has a French surname and lists an origin in Burgundy. He also has several STR matches with persons who have variants of the same French surname, none of whom have done SNP testing.

Finally there are a number of people in the P312 project who have tested negative for L21, U152, DF27, DF19 L238 and DF99, but who don't have a terminal SNP beyond P312. Four of these either list an origin in France or have a French surname and list an origin in Canada.

I do think it is quite possible that DF99 and DF19 may have a presence in France beyond what is currently known, but I very much doubt that their combined numbers would approach anything near the percentages you list, especially for south and central France. It if there is a hotspot for them anywhere in France, it is likely to be in Normandy or close to the eastern border. Nor do I see any reason to suspect any, let alone significant amounts of L238 in France. It is still in the early stages for ZZ37, but I again see no evidence to suggest France is likely to be a hotspot.

There is an intriguing possibility that there could be a as yet undiscovered subclade of P312 which might be significant in France.

Dewsloth
04-10-2019, 08:05 PM
I am more than a little surprised by your projected figures. Since I have access to the data for the FTDNA P312 Project as well as some of its subclade projects, I have had a look through the data for the numbers of P312 (xU152,L21,DF27) for those who list France as their paternal country of origin. There is no doubt France is under-represented. Only 117 out of over 4700 P312 Project members list France as their paternal country of origin.

DF99 has the largest percentage of French origin of any of the less numerous P312 subclades: 6 out of 154 or just under 4%. However three of the six have origins from Normandy, two from Alsace and one from Savoy near the Swiss border, and the six are descendants of only three families.

DF19 has only four members (out of 409) with origins from France. Three of the four are from Normandy (one of those is from Guernsey) and there is just one from the far south of France (Herault).

L238 is extremely rare on the continent outside of Scandinavia. There are just four: two from Germany, one from Austria and one from Poland. None have origins rom France.

ZZ37 is overwhelmingly from Britain and Ireland. Out of 117 members, there are only three with origins on the continent: two from Finland and one from Germany. Again none from France.

There only four confirmed A9063 and two BY25515: all six have origins in the UK.

There are four confirmed Y18209: three list origins from the UK, but the fourth has what appears to be a French surname.

There is an interesting possibility. There is a single person who remains P312** on the Big Tree after doing the Big Y. Although Alex for some reason lists him as unknown, he has a French surname and lists an origin in Burgundy. He also has several STR matches with persons who have variants of the same French surname, none of whom have done SNP testing.

Finally there are a number of people in the P312 project who have tested negative for L21, U152, DF27, DF19 L238 and DF99, but who don't have a terminal SNP beyond P312. Four of these either list an origin in France or have a French surname and list an origin in Canada.

I do think it is quite possible that DF99 and DF19 may have a presence in France beyond what is currently known, but I very much doubt that their combined numbers would approach anything near the percentages you list, especially for south and central France. It if there is a hotspot for them anywhere in France, it is likely to be in Normandy or close to the eastern border. Nor do I see any reason to suspect any, let alone significant amounts of L238 in France. It is still in the early stages for ZZ37, but I again see no evidence to suggest France is likely to be a hotspot.

There is an intriguing possibility that there could be a as yet undiscovered subclade of P312 which might be significant in France.


There is one person in my DF19 subclade who lists his MDKA as coming from Strasbourg b. 1689 ... but a quick Google search shows both of the man's parents were from around Breitscheid (northeast of Limburg and northeast of the Rhine). I think he left the Alsatian guy on there because he was the "famous" one to migrate to North America in the early 1700s and is an ancestor for a lot of Americans.
But even if his family was "always" from Alsace he'd be German nearly as much as he was French through much of the last 2000 years.

All the others in our subclade also have MDKA northeast of the Rhine.

Webb
04-10-2019, 08:09 PM
I am more than a little surprised by your projected figures. Since I have access to the data for the FTDNA P312 Project as well as some of its subclade projects, I have had a look through the data for the numbers of P312 (xU152,L21,DF27) for those who list France as their paternal country of origin. There is no doubt France is under-represented. Only 117 out of over 4700 P312 Project members list France as their paternal country of origin.

DF99 has the largest percentage of French origin of any of the less numerous P312 subclades: 6 out of 154 or just under 4%. However three of the six have origins from Normandy, two from Alsace and one from Savoy near the Swiss border, and the six are descendants of only three families.

DF19 has only four members (out of 409) with origins from France. Three of the four are from Normandy (one of those is from Guernsey) and there is just one from the far south of France (Herault).

L238 is extremely rare on the continent outside of Scandinavia. There are just four: two from Germany, one from Austria and one from Poland. None have origins rom France.

ZZ37 is overwhelmingly from Britain and Ireland. Out of 117 members, there are only three with origins on the continent: two from Finland and one from Germany. Again none from France.

There only four confirmed A9063 and two BY25515: all six have origins in the UK.

There are four confirmed Y18209: three list origins from the UK, but the fourth has what appears to be a French surname.

There is an interesting possibility. There is a single person who remains P312** on the Big Tree after doing the Big Y. Although Alex for some reason lists him as unknown, he has a French surname and lists an origin in Burgundy. He also has several STR matches with persons who have variants of the same French surname, none of whom have done SNP testing.

Finally there are a number of people in the P312 project who have tested negative for L21, U152, DF27, DF19 L238 and DF99, but who don't have a terminal SNP beyond P312. Four of these either list an origin in France or have a French surname and list an origin in Canada.

I do think it is quite possible that DF99 and DF19 may have a presence in France beyond what is currently known, but I very much doubt that their combined numbers would approach anything near the percentages you list, especially for south and central France. It if there is a hotspot for them anywhere in France, it is likely to be in Normandy or close to the eastern border. Nor do I see any reason to suspect any, let alone significant amounts of L238 in France. It is still in the early stages for ZZ37, but I again see no evidence to suggest France is likely to be a hotspot.

There is an intriguing possibility that there could be a as yet undiscovered subclade of P312 which might be significant in France.

I don't know if you were aware, but one of the samples from the Genomic History of the Iberian Peninsula was BY25512, 677-866 AD, Necropolis de las Delicias. Items found with the inhumations included a brooch of Ostrogothic influence.

GoldenHind
04-19-2019, 05:57 PM
Further to the above discussion about P312 (XL21,DF27,U152) in France, a Big Y result has come in for for someone of French ancestry and he is P312>A9063. He has only one match at 111 markers, to someone with a different French surname. Previously this apparently very small P312 subclade has been found only in people of British origin, but I think this is a very strong indication it is present in France as well.

GoldenHind
04-19-2019, 06:24 PM
Since the discussion above doesn't really belong in this topic, I would request a moderator move all these posts beginning with that of R.Rocca in post #194 to a new topic entitled P312 (XL21,U152,DFG27) in France.

GoldenHind
05-09-2019, 06:37 PM
There have been some interesting developments in the somewhat obscure P312 subclade characterized by FTDNA as Y18211 and on the Big Tree as Y18209. According to FTDNA, there are 9 individuals who have tested P312>Y18211 in the Big Y, while the Big Tree has only four of them.

According to FTDNA's tree, Y18211 is divided into three subclades: BY12146, BY61865 and Y18211*. They seem to be a diverse group in terms of national origins. The BY61865 subclade has men with ancestry from Scotland, Ukraine (German surname) and Belgium.

rafc
05-09-2019, 07:21 PM
Further to the above discussion about P312 (XL21,DF27,U152) in France, a Big Y result has come in for for someone of French ancestry and he is P312>A9063. He has only one match at 111 markers, to someone with a different French surname. Previously this apparently very small P312 subclade has been found only in people of British origin, but I think this is a very strong indication it is present in France as well.

It's also present in a Flemish sample from a scientific study: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S187249731730220X

tellpathic
07-14-2019, 12:50 PM
GoldenHind, I fit this description. I must be number 2? 120940.

tellpathic
07-16-2019, 12:08 AM
Razn,
I may be number 2 of this rarity at #163. kit #120940. (Z30597+ and 30600-)

GoldenHind
07-16-2019, 12:23 AM
GoldenHind, I fit this description. I must be number 2? 120940.

I'm not sure which description you are referring to. As far as I can tell, your DF27 test is still pending. However if I were a betting man, my money would be on your being some variety of ZZ37/ZZ38, which is pretty common in Britain.

tellpathic
07-20-2019, 05:50 PM
I keep matching these treads. #120940

GoldenHind
11-12-2019, 12:37 AM
Recently someone with a German surname and ancestry from Switzerland has tested P312** (ie negative for all currently known P312 subclades) in the Big Y test. He has submitted his raw data to the Big Tree for analysis, which has not yet been completed.

To my knowledge he is only the third person confirmed to be in this category after a Big Y test.

GoldenHind
11-13-2019, 12:14 AM
Recently someone with a German surname and ancestry from Switzerland has tested P312** (ie negative for all currently known P312 subclades) in the Big Y test. He has submitted his raw data to the Big Tree for analysis, which has not yet been completed.

To my knowledge he is only the third person confirmed to be in this category after a Big Y test.

I am informed by Alex W. that the person in question is actually ZZ12+ (under DF27). He hasn't yet appeared on the Big Tree chart. I checked his Big Y results as listed at FTDNA and it shows a question mark (a no call?) for ZZ12.

GoldenHind
01-18-2020, 09:04 PM
Deleted

GoldenHind
01-18-2020, 09:06 PM
I am informed by Alex W. that the person in question is actually ZZ12+ (under DF27). He hasn't yet appeared on the Big Tree chart. I checked his Big Y results as listed at FTDNA and it shows a question mark (a no call?) for ZZ12.

FTDNA has now confirned his ZZ12_1 status.

GoldenHind
01-18-2020, 09:10 PM
FTDNA appears to have discovered a new subclade under P312: BY140446. One person of French ancestry who was formerly designated P312**, now has this classification. His Big Y block view indicates there is another person of Scottish ancestry in the same category, but I have been unable to discover who he is.

ArmandoR1b
01-18-2020, 11:49 PM
FTDNA appears to have discovered a new subclade under P312: BY140446. One person of French ancestry who was formerly designated P312**, now has this classification. His Big Y block view indicates there is another person of Scottish ancestry in the same category, but I have been unable to discover who he is.

You can search for that subclade at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HARVEY?iframe=yresults and see some information on the person with Scottish ancestry.

GoldenHind
01-19-2020, 12:44 AM
You can search for that subclade at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/HARVEY?iframe=yresults and see some information on the person with Scottish ancestry.

Thanks very much. I don't know how you found him, but that is certainly him. Odd however that he notes DF23 at LDNA.

ArmandoR1b
01-19-2020, 02:06 AM
Thanks very much. I don't know how you found him, but that is certainly him. Odd however that he notes DF23 at LDNA.

You're welcome. I'm sure LDNA has a false positive for DF23 because there is no other explanation. I bet the other tested SNPs at LDNA between P312 and DF23 show negative.

Dewsloth
01-19-2020, 02:10 AM
Sort of along the same lines, a few months ago a guy turned up in the FTDNA DF19 group who was apparently Z4161+ but DF19- (breaking up the DF19 block), but he still hasnt shown up in the blocktree anywhere, and isnt in the group anymore.

GoldenHind
01-19-2020, 07:02 PM
A new section [J] has been created for these two in the P312 Project DNA results pages.

GoldenHind
05-19-2020, 07:23 PM
Someone with a common Welsh surname but a family tradition of Irish origins recently tested P312* in the Big Y 700. Alex W. has now had a look at his BAM file and has placed him as P312>Z38841*. This is the marker (technically an STR) that combines U152 and DF27. Alex has confirmed that the person is negative for downstream markers U152, Z195 and ZZ12. Obviously the Big Y doesn't test for DF27 itself, but Alex suspects he would be negative for it. He says there is no data for Z40481 and ZZ11, both of which are upstream from Z38841.

This is certainly an unique result.

Webb
05-20-2020, 01:43 PM
Someone with a common Welsh surname but a family tradition of Irish origins recently tested P312* in the Big Y 700. Alex W. has now had a look at his BAM file and has placed him as P312>Z38841*. This is the marker (technically an STR) that combines U152 and DF27. Alex has confirmed that the person is negative for downstream markers U152, Z195 and ZZ12. Obviously the Big Y doesn't test for DF27 itself, but Alex suspects he would be negative for it. He says there is no data for Z40481 and ZZ11, both of which are upstream from Z38841.

This is certainly an unique result.

It is a very interesting development and only adds more complexity to the questions about DF27 and U152.

MitchellSince1893
05-20-2020, 02:11 PM
Someone with a common Welsh surname but a family tradition of Irish origins recently tested P312* in the Big Y 700. Alex W. has now had a look at his BAM file and has placed him as P312>Z38841*. This is the marker (technically an STR) that combines U152 and DF27. Alex has confirmed that the person is negative for downstream markers U152, Z195 and ZZ12. Obviously the Big Y doesn't test for DF27 itself, but Alex suspects he would be negative for it. He says there is no data for Z40481 and ZZ11, both of which are upstream from Z38841.


This is certainly an unique result.
So a new brother clade to DF27 and U152? Interesting.

GoldenHind
05-20-2020, 07:48 PM
So a new brother clade to DF27 and U152? Interesting.

Technically DF27* status has not been excluded, though as I said, Alex thinks that is unlikely to be the case. If he does represent a new brother subclade to U152 and DF27, the marker which forms it has not yet been identified, as so far he is a singleton.

Pylsteen
05-20-2020, 07:57 PM
FTDNA might still do a backbone test on the untested SNPs to make sure. At least they did with such a sample in my group.