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View Full Version : LivingDNA added to the ISOGG Y-SNP testing comparison chart:



Amerijoe
08-01-2017, 04:57 PM
https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_SNP_testing_chart

MacUalraig
08-01-2017, 06:41 PM
https://isogg.org/wiki/Y-DNA_SNP_testing_chart

I asked them to put YSEQ in back in 2015 (!) so I have added them belatedly now.

DebbieK
08-02-2017, 12:43 PM
Thank you for adding YSEQ to the chart. However, as previously explained by private e-mail, we are currently seeking feedback on what to do with this Y-SNP testing comparison chart. Adding Living DNA to the chart and removing BritainsDNA was a temporary measure prior to a pending re-organisation of the content. If anyone has any suggestions or feedback you can add comments to the discussion page or contribute to the discussions on Facebook or in the ISOGG Project Admins group on Yahoo:

https://isogg.org/wiki/Talk:Y-DNA_next_generation_sequencing

The Wiki is edited by volunteers. There is a limit as to how much free time can be spent on this work. The migration of content from the old website had to take priority over decisions on how to re-organise the SNP testing charts.

MacUalraig
08-02-2017, 02:10 PM
Thank you for adding YSEQ to the chart. However, as previously explained by private e-mail, we are currently seeking feedback on what to do with this Y-SNP testing comparison chart. Adding Living DNA to the chart and removing BritainsDNA was a temporary measure prior to a pending re-organisation of the content. If anyone has any suggestions or feedback you can add comments to the discussion page or contribute to the discussions on Facebook or in the ISOGG Project Admins group on Yahoo:

https://isogg.org/wiki/Talk:Y-DNA_next_generation_sequencing

The Wiki is edited by volunteers. There is a limit as to how much free time can be spent on this work. The migration of content from the old website had to take priority over decisions on how to re-organise the SNP testing charts.

Personally I'm reluctant to get too drawn into the project as I have too many issues with it and I wouldn't know where to start ;-)

In the specific, I don't quite get why you think the LDNA test is more appropriate on that Y-SNP page than YSEQ? but anyway...

Clearly we need a chart for NGS but it has to make it clear that WGS tests are a superset of Y tests so WGS tests shouldn't be removed from some kind of general Y comparison chart. And YSEQ which quickly overtook Chromo2 for SNPs and hence has much better coverage than LDNA (which has less than C2) has to be shown alongside for comparison.

I am not on any ISOGG forums.

DebbieK
08-02-2017, 04:10 PM
Personally I'm reluctant to get too drawn into the project as I have too many issues with it and I wouldn't know where to start ;-)

In the specific, I don't quite get why you think the LDNA test is more appropriate on that Y-SNP page than YSEQ? but anyway...

Clearly we need a chart for NGS but it has to make it clear that WGS tests are a superset of Y tests so WGS tests shouldn't be removed from some kind of general Y comparison chart. And YSEQ which quickly overtook Chromo2 for SNPs and hence has much better coverage than LDNA (which has less than C2) has to be shown alongside for comparison.

I am not on any ISOGG forums.

Sorry I assumed you'd sent your previous e-mail in response to my original post on the ISOGG list. What issues do you have the Wiki? If there is any incorrect information then we need to know. There are so many changes that it's difficult to keep up.

The tests shown on the SNP chart are all single tests whereas we now have a column not for a single test but for a range of tests offered by a single company so we're not comparing like with like. If anything it might be better to have the YSEQ WGS test in the chart and include a note that the company also offers single SNP testing and SNP panels but then do we want NGS tests on two different charts? Living DNA fitted the existing criteria because it's the name of a single test. I only in fact added Living DNA as an afterthought after removing BritainsDNA. That upset the column widths and adding Living DNA seemed like the easiest short term solution until a decision had been made as to what to do with the charts.

If we start getting down to comparing SNP packs and SNP panels I suspect it's going to be too complicated to keep up with all the changes. You can't directly compare SNP packs/panels with microarray and NGS testing because you can't take a SNP pack test unless you already know your haplogroup from prior testing.

Living DNA are still validating the Y-DNA and mtDNA SNPs on their chip so I think the coverage will improve once this has been done. I imagine that coverage will vary from one haplogroup to another.

TigerMW
08-02-2017, 04:11 PM
I recommended these additional factors.

Posted by myself on ISOGG yahoo group for Debbie K.

Please add rows for additional factors to consider:

- Y Haplogroup Project web-based support system

- Surname Project web-based support system

- Geographic Project web-based support system

- Integrated match search function for genetic genealogy support.

- Estimated size of matching database for genetic genealogy support

- Integrated Y DNA haplogroup tree


Your "Main purpose of test" factor is extremely important. I recommend breaking this apart into separate factors (rows) that could include:


- Discovery of an individual's paternal lineage of Y SNPs

- Identification of Y DNA haplogroup on the known tree

- Health traits

- General biogeographical ancestry

- Identification of mt DNA haplogroup on the known tree

ISOGG has larger issues when creating these kinds of charts, though. These kinds of "simple" comparison charts end up not being accurate if too simple but not being useful if too complex. I think the discussion on the ISOGG yahoo group is in the middle of figuring that out but some probably won't accept that simplification is not so easy.

You can't beat a good open conversation for learning.

rod
08-03-2017, 01:44 AM
Living DNA are still validating the Y-DNA and mtDNA SNPs on their chip so I think the coverage will improve once this has been done. I imagine that coverage will vary from one haplogroup to another.

Based on my "R-L151" Y-DNA results I'd recommend Living DNA for your "Genetic Astrology" list - they couldn't identify R-P312...

DebbieK
08-03-2017, 01:33 PM
Based on my "R-L151" Y-DNA results I'd recommend Living DNA for your "Genetic Astrology" list - they couldn't identify R-P312...

Rod, Genetic astrology is a term normally used to describe romantic storytelling about haplogroups. There are many SNP that can't be read well on microarrays and I believe P312 is one of them. Wasn't there a similar problem with P312 in the Genographic test? Others with more knowledge might be able to advise.

TigerMW
08-03-2017, 05:00 PM
... These kinds of "simple" comparison charts end up not being accurate if too simple but not being useful if too complex.
...
You can't beat a good open conversation for learning.
I'll post on the ISOGG yahoo group on this since that is where the conversation opened but I want to explain more about this.

Creating charts likes these that are simple enough and easy enough for newbies (who need them) is very important, but very difficult. It's hard to simplify and abbreviate descriptions, particularly as it relates to technical jargon that newbies are likely unfamiliar with.

Putting the various types of Y SNP test offerings on a single table is comparing apples and oranges so it makes sense to separate comparison tables by by test type. However, that adds complexity.

A chart of charts or table that summarizes the various test types might be helpful. There could be links to the specific test type tables, one form multi-purpose fixed SNP tests, one for fixed Y SNP tests(panels), one for NGS, etc. I'm not sure where WGS fits in. Maybe it should be its own category.

However, it might be better to make this chart of charts or master Y SNP test reference more of a tutorial than purely a chart. Of course, encouragement should be made to the audience to encourage newbies to join the appropriate discussion forum, like the DNA-newbies group.

Contemplator
10-17-2017, 04:02 AM
Side note. I see the price for the YElite on that wiki is outdated. The YElite 2.1 is currently at $645. Recently came down from $795 weeks (months?) ago.

TigerMW
10-18-2017, 04:39 AM
There are a number of items on that chart that are out of date or not displayed in context. This is one of the problems with these kinds of things - it's hard to keep them updated accurately and even harder to make everything apples to apples because it is not. Add the complexities to the lack of currency and the usefulness isn't what is hoped for.

I must be feeling mischievous today so I guess I'll say it. I appreciate the effort but apparently not many testers are paying attention. I apologize as that has to offend someone but I think it is true. I've had too many years in competitive endeavors and things that are not working or are waste of time are often cut because they should be.

DebbieK
10-26-2017, 12:09 AM
I've now updated the price of the YElite 2.1 test on the SNP testing chart and on the other two affected Wiki pages (the mtDNA testing comparison chart and the next generation sequencing chart). We updated the price on on the Full Genomes page on 3rd August to $695 so it must have been reduced again some time after that date. FGC normally write to advise us of any price changes but that didn't happen on this occasion though fortunately someone did e-mail us.

It is free to set up a Wiki account so if there are changes that need to be made to any pages the quickest solution is to edit the page directly which cuts out the middle man.

The intention was to revamp the SNP testing chart to compare companies rather than tests as the chart is not sustainable in its present format. Unfortunately my request for assistance in the ISOGG Project Admins group resulted in a zero response rate. If anyone else is able to help format a new chart it would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll have a go when I have a bit more free time.