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Kylo_Ren
08-03-2017, 06:39 PM
New GenePlaza calculator. I am also interested to see the results of Africans and Asians on this calculator.

Dorsetshireman
08-03-2017, 09:41 PM
$5? Well, I'll give it a spin, for the greater good:

http://i.imgur.com/Sf6ioUU.png

wombatofthenorth
08-04-2017, 01:40 AM
a lot of results here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11523-Neolithic-amp-Bronnze-Age-K11-Admixture-Caluculator-now-available

wombatofthenorth
08-04-2017, 01:41 AM
Just to put them all together for a clearer comparison:
me:
Western European Hunter Gatherers 27.5%
Neolithic European 19.9%
Andronovo-Srubnaya 17.0%
Yamnaya-Poltavka 15.5%
Neolithic Anatolians 9.3%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant 5.5%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran 5.3%

my mom:
Western European Hunter Gatherers 32.6%
Andronovo-Srubnaya 19.4%
Neolithic European 18.5%
Yamnaya-Poltavka 14.2%
Neolithic Anatolians 10.8%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant 4.4%

my dad:
Western European Hunter Gatherers 28.1%
Andronovo-Srubnaya 18.0%
Neolithic European 16.6%
Yamnaya-Poltavka 16.1%
Neolithic Anatolians 13.5%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran 4.4%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant 3.4%

serena297
08-06-2017, 04:15 AM
Me:
Southeast Asian: 17.8%
Northeast Asian: 16.3%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran: 12.7%
Andronovo-Srubnaya: 11.7%
Yamnaya-Poltavka: 10.3%
Neolithic Anatolians: 7.0%
Eastern Non-African: 7.0%
Neolithic European: 5.3%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant: 4.9%
Sub-Saharan: 4.8%
Western European Hunter Gatherers: 2.2%

Brother:

Northeast Asian: 21.6%
Southeast Asian: 15.8%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran: 13.6%
Neolithic Anatolians: 10.0%
Andronovo-Srubnaya: 9.6%
Yamnaya-Poltvaka: 8.8%
Eastern Non-African: 5.7%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant: 5.3%
Sub-Saharan: 4.8%
Neolithic European: 3.2%
Western European Hunter Gatherers: 1.7%

jortita
08-06-2017, 05:41 AM
Me:
Southeast Asian: 17.8%
Northeast Asian: 16.3%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran: 12.7%
Andronovo-Srubnaya: 11.7%
Yamnaya-Poltavka: 10.3%
Neolithic Anatolians: 7.0%
Eastern Non-African: 7.0%
Neolithic European: 5.3%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant: 4.9%
Sub-Saharan: 4.8%
Western European Hunter Gatherers: 2.2%

Brother:

Northeast Asian: 21.6%
Southeast Asian: 15.8%
Neolithic-Chalcolithic Iran: 13.6%
Neolithic Anatolians: 10.0%
Andronovo-Srubnaya: 9.6%
Yamnaya-Poltvaka: 8.8%
Eastern Non-African: 5.7%
Neolithic-Bronze Age Levant: 5.3%
Sub-Saharan: 4.8%
Neolithic European: 3.2%
Western European Hunter Gatherers: 1.7%

What is your ethnicity?

serena297
08-06-2017, 02:02 PM
Punjabi. New to all this so if you can interpret this, I'd more than appreciate it!

khanabadoshi
08-07-2017, 03:37 AM
Punjabi. New to all this so if you can interpret this, I'd more than appreciate it!

I'll compare you against other South Asians when I redo the PCA and things. What part of Punjab?

serena297
08-07-2017, 04:49 AM
Jalandhar. Don't know if I even need to mention this, but I guess it plays it's role: I'm mixed caste. My dad's a Saraswat Brahmin and my mom's Chamar. Thanks much for adding me in, it'll be interesting to see!

khanabadoshi
08-07-2017, 12:03 PM
Jalandhar. Don't know if I even need to mention this, but I guess it plays it's role: I'm mixed caste. My dad's a Saraswat Brahmin and my mom's Chamar. Thanks much for adding me in, it'll be interesting to see!

I'm pretty sure I have a Saraswat Brahmin result somewhere, and we have a decent amount of Punjabi users/data, so you'll def be able to get an idea of where you fit in. I imagine you'll plot near Punjabis of Lahore.

MonkeyDLuffy and Sapporo are the resident Eastern Punjab experts. They should be able to explain questions specific to Punjab you may have.

serena297
08-07-2017, 01:49 PM
I figured being mixed might mess up where I fit, but everyone is technically mixed I guess. You can add my brother's results too if you'd like, I see I already posted them above. Why Punjabi's of Lahore if you don't mind me asking? I'm new to this so I don't know what places me where and all that kinda goes over my head, I apologize.

I'll reach out to them if I have any questions, thank you for letting me know.

khanabadoshi
08-08-2017, 05:14 AM
Jatts and Arains seem to plot distinct from the rest of Punjab. Much of Lahore seems to be Chamar-converts or Gurjar-converts. Since you are half-Brahmin/half-Chamar, you'll probably plot between a UP Brahmin and a Lahori -- which makes sense geographically, since Jalhandar would be between Lahore and UP. However, anything is possible, so let's wait until I add you to some plots.

You are correct in assuming that many people are mixed in the region to some degree. More importantly, the difference between a non-Jatt Punjabi and the rest of North India is not that substantial. I'd argue they are essentially the same genetically with different languages. The difference between someone from Lahore and someone from Lucknow is like the difference between someone from Peshawar and someone from Kabul. There is a difference, but it's within the range of a single genetic grouping, not like the difference between someone from Sindh and someone from Balochistan -- 2 different groups. Of course, there are a million exceptions and caveats, as well as lots of overlapping. So anything is possible. There is no set rule, just general rules-of-thumb so to speak.

Have you uploaded your results and your brother's result to gedmatch? If so, would you mind messaging me your kit numbers?

You can see where Punjabi Lahore samples (average of 100 unrelated people from the city) and the Jatt samples plot. There is quite a difference. You can also see where UP Brahmins are. (right-click < View Image to see the full-size plot)

https://i.gyazo.com/95907e7e93fa7fce9c015c40cdb75c55.png

Thatagus
08-08-2017, 09:24 AM
Jatts and Arains seem to plot distinct from the rest of Punjab. Much of Lahore seems to be Chamar-converts or Gurjar-converts........You are correct in assuming that many people are mixed in the region to some degree. More importantly, the difference between a non-Jatt Punjabi and the rest of North India is not that substantial...

The Punjabi Gujjar samples that we have don't genetically differ much from the Punjabi Jatt and Arrain samples.
Secondly, non-Jatt Punjabi samples that have been tested, of Punjabi Khatris, Arrains, Malik/Awan and Gujjars are very similar to the Punjabi Jatt ones and differ quite a bit from the PJL (Punjabis in Lahore) ones.
Lastly, how can you assume that the PJL samples are representative of Lahore or even Punjab as a whole as they were not identified by any caste/tribe (which every other genetic study on South Asians does).
Punjabi Jatts, Khatris, Arrains, Gujjars etc. form the majority of Punjab and if their results are anything to go by, then your statement of Lahore and Lucknow or Punjab and the rest of North India being genetically the same is false.

pegasus
08-08-2017, 10:32 AM
The Punjabi Gujjar samples that we have don't genetically differ much from the Punjabi Jatt and Arrain samples.
Secondly, non-Jatt Punjabi samples that have been tested, of Punjabi Khatris, Arrains, Malik/Awan and Gujjars are very similar to the Punjabi Jatt ones and differ quite a bit from the PJL (Punjabis in Lahore) ones.
Lastly, how can you assume that the PJL samples are representative of Lahore or even Punjab as a whole as they were not identified by any caste/tribe (which every other genetic study on South Asians does).
Punjabi Jatts, Khatris, Arrains, Gujjars etc. form the majority of Punjab and if their results are anything to go by, then your statement of Lahore and Lucknow or Punjab and the rest of North India being genetically the same is false.

Actually he is right, a good chunk of Punjab is composed of Chamars , based from what Duffy said its about 30-35% , based of those PJL Lahore samples I think its a bit even higher there because of conversion. From what I have see of their Harappa results they are very Pan South Asian , their results seem very similar to other North Indians, as well that lower caste Gujaratis and even South Indian groups . Its safe to say these are your IVC people, as they lack the Euro admix which the other castes have but are found all over South Asia. I would assume Gujjars cluster with Jats and Arains but KHana would know more about Gujjars. East of the Indus in Pakistan ,generally most of the populations seem to be extensions of North Indian populations both lower and upper caste, but West of the Indus , those Chamar like groups completely vanish from what I am seeing is you have populations which skew between upper caste NW Indian populations and those found in SC Asia or Southern Iran. So interestingly the Khyber Pass does not act like a dividing line the Indus River does.

Thatagus
08-08-2017, 11:15 AM
Actually he is right, a good chunk of Punjab is composed of Chamars , based from what Duffy said its about 30-35% , based of those PJL Lahore samples I think its a bit even higher there because of conversion. From what I have see of their Harappa results they are very Pan South Asian , their results seem very similar to other North Indians, as well that lower caste Gujaratis and even South Indian groups . Its safe to say these are your IVC people, as they lack the Euro admix which the other castes have but are found all over South Asia. I would assume Gujjars cluster with Jats and Arains but KHana would know more about Gujjars. East of the Indus in Pakistan ,generally most of the populations seem to be extensions of North Indian populations both lower and upper caste, but West of the Indus , those Chamar like groups completely vanish from what I am seeing is you have populations which skew between upper caste populations and those found in SC Asia or Southern Iran. So interestingly the Khyber Pass does not act like a dividing line the Indus River does.

Good chunk =/= majority. Also, other non-Chamar Punjabis aren't genetically very different from Punjabi Jatts but differ quite a bit, genetically from the PJL samples.

Wouldn't IVC-Mehrgarh have been more Brahui-like, as they are mostly a neolithic farmer population with high Iran_N and very low steppe admix.and also speak a Dravidian language, representing a sort of Elamo-Dravidian migration from the neolithic Fertile Crescent into Mehrgarh?

Populations east of the Indus in Pakistan (mainly Punjabis and Sindhis) don't differ 'very significantly' from west of the Indus Pakistani populations. HGDP Balochs/Brahuis/Makranis (Balochistan populations) clustered relatively close with HGDP Sindhis, same for HGDP Pathans. Regarding chamar-like populations not existing west of the Indus, there were some individual samples from the HGDP Pathans (taken from the Kurram Agency) that were scoring around 36% ASI in HarappaDNA, so that statement is not entirely true. And ofcourse the Khyber Pass won't be much of a dividing line given that it's the same ethnic group on both sides while that's not the case with the Indus.

khanabadoshi
08-08-2017, 11:38 AM
I'll post why I see this pattern later. I'm currently at work. It boils down to the fact that we have a bazillion Punjabi samples and with the exception of Jatts and few groups, they don't cluster as a distinct group, and they never have in any calculator. The majority of Punjab likes to cluster with the rest of UP/Bihar or they like to cluster with Gujarat. The whole Gujrat vs. Punjab relationship perplexed me until I realized almost all of Gujrat is WEST of Lahore. Iran N is a West - East cline and directly competes with ASI, and yet the cline becomes dramatically less evident after Punjab. As you go West from some point in Punjab, Iran N score increases with every degree, yet as you go east it does not decrease at the same rate at all. Iran N + ASI = most of our ancestry. The North-South Steppe cline is considerably less significant in my opinion.

Much of Punjab is a migrant population and isn't native. When the Ghaznavids took Lahore the regional capital for the Chauhan Rajput king was Sialkot. Lahore was a deserted city. This is in the 11th century. You have to take into consideration, that other people in the region are far more native relative to people in Lahore. Prior to the Ghaznavi invasion, Lahore is theorized to be a Gurjari city. We also have a large Rajput influx into Punjab as well, clearly that effect things. And lastly, a good chunk of Punjab was central to the empires of Delhi -- a part of the North Indian continuum. So I think all these factors contribute.

Also, the Punjabi in Lahore samples are often dismissed because we don't have all the information. However, you can't deny that 100 unrelated samples is significant. We don't have that kind of data for any other ethnic group in the region. In fact, I think it's the more representative sample because the average guy in Punjab isn't some high-caste person, it's the guy selling fruits in the bazaar.

Thatagus
08-08-2017, 12:10 PM
I'll post why I see this pattern later. I'm currently at work. It boils down to the fact that we have a bazillion Punjabi samples and with the exception of Jatts and few groups, they don't cluster as a distinct group, and they never have in any calculator. The majority of Punjab likes to cluster with the rest of UP/Bihar or they like to cluster with Gujarat.
Which samples are you talking about when you talk about the 'majority of Punjab' that is clustering with UP/Bihar? Also, which UP/Bihari samples (Brahmins etc.) are you talking about when you say that Punjabi samples cluster with them. Same question for the Gujaratis.


The whole Gujrat vs. Punjab relationship perplexed me until I realized almost all of Gujrat is WEST of Lahore. Iran N is a West - East cline and directly competes with ASI, and yet the cline becomes dramatically less evident after Punjab. As you go West from some point in Punjab, Iran N score increases with every degree, yet as you go east it does not decrease at the same rate at all. Iran N + ASI = most of our ancestry. The North-South Steppe cline is considerably less significant in my opinion.
Also, the Punjabi in Lahore samples are often dismissed because we don't have all the information. However, you can't deny that 100 unrelated samples is significant. We don't have that kind of data for any other ethnic group in the region. In fact, I think it's the more representative sample because the average guy in Punjab isn't some high-caste person, it's the guy selling fruits in the bazaar.

In some admixture calculators, the South_Central_Asian component is based on Iran_N and many Punjabi groups (Punjabi Awans, Gujjars, Pahari_Jatts) score high in this component. The 'Baloch' component of HarappaDna was a Iran_N like component and many Punjabi groups scored high on that component as well. Iran_N itself peaks in SW Pakistan, in the Balochistani populations (Brahui, Balochs and Makranis) but isn't as high in Pashtuns (west of Punjab).
Regarding the PJL samples being representative of Lahore (let alone Punjab as a whole), that could only be decided if we knew their caste/tribe/group and the % they comprise of the city but unfortunately we don't. The samples themselves were diverse genetically though, and some clustered with other Punjabi groups.
Also, the "Jatts and few other groups" that you're talking about aren't some uber-priveleged minorities as you're portraying, but are farmer groups that form the bulk of the rural populace of the region so I don't see how they're less representative.

khanabadoshi
08-08-2017, 01:10 PM
I'm not disagreeing. Jatt are what makes Punjab fit the geography cline/pattern. However, if you're not a Jatt or the other groups (the pattern I see with those other groups is a relationship with the Salt Range), you are going to plot like someone from UP or Gujrat or Rajasthan. That's all I'm saying. That's the current pattern I see. Basically, a lot of people from Punjab, aren't really from Punjab -- especially in the urban city of Lahore. Conversely, before Punjab was ever called Punjab, much of the populated regions of it were often Rajput territory, so maybe those results being closer to Rajasthan and Gujrat in fact truly more indicative of the native people? Who knows? Of course this pattern may all change with IVC ancients and what not, but as of now, it is what it is.

I am trying to get the entire PJL dataset so that I can run them all separately so that they aren't condensed into an average. Because, I agree without knowing their background, averaging them is futile. So, I think the next best thing is to plot them all out, so we can see the spread. That in and of itself should answer lots of questions.

That being said, of all South Asians, the most results we have are Punjabi people -- both research data, and consumer data. Most of the users that post their data are Punjabi. We have a lot of Punjabi data, so much so that I make averages based on if they are Muslim, Sikh, Khatri, Jatt, Arain, Pahari, Hindu... etc. We have a very strong representation of Punjab, from every part of Punjab. I think we have quite enough data to make some inferences regarding each group and the general trend.

khanabadoshi
08-08-2017, 01:42 PM
Which samples are you talking about when you talk about the 'majority of Punjab' that is clustering with UP/Bihar? Also, which UP/Bihari samples (Brahmins etc.) are you talking about when you say that Punjabi samples cluster with them. Same question for the Gujaratis.



In some admixture calculators, the South_Central_Asian component is based on Iran_N and many Punjabi groups (Punjabi Awans, Gujjars, Pahari_Jatts) score high in this component. The 'Baloch' component of HarappaDna was a Iran_N like component and many Punjabi groups scored high on that component as well. Iran_N itself peaks in SW Pakistan, in the Balochistani populations (Brahui, Balochs and Makranis) but isn't as high in Pashtuns (west of Punjab).
Regarding the PJL samples being representative of Lahore (let alone Punjab as a whole), that could only be decided if we knew their caste/tribe/group and the % they comprise of the city but unfortunately we don't. The samples themselves were diverse genetically though, and some clustered with other Punjabi groups.
Also, the "Jatts and few other groups" that you're talking about aren't some uber-priveleged minorities as you're portraying, but are farmer groups that form the bulk of the rural populace of the region so I don't see how they're less representative.

For this part, my theory is because all these groups are in fact more Western; with the Baloch being considerably more Western than the Pathan samples but not that much more Western than the Afghan Pashtun samples. At a certain point, going North becomes a factor with Steppe contribution, that relationship becomes very prominent and apparent between the Pashtun and Baloch. The same West/East reasoning goes for Gujjar, Pahari, Awan vs. other non-Jatt Punjabis. I think a good way of illustrating this W/E Iran N/ASI cline is the fact that most Kashmiris score more ASI than most Jatts, despite being north of Punjab. It's because they are east of it.

The reason why I give the Lahore samples more weight than perhaps you like, is because most of population of Punjab in Pakistan, resides on the eastern border where Lahore is. Hence, I think it has to be given due consideration.

https://i.gyazo.com/4760b0ee11c9f84d19a9e453fb900009.jpg

Reza
08-08-2017, 05:40 PM
Out of interest, razib looked into the 1000 genomes south Asian data and found four different clusters in the PJL group.

Discussed in this post here (http://www.unz.com/gnxp/south-asians-in-the-1000-genomes/).

bol_nat
08-16-2017, 09:29 PM
For this part, my theory is because all these groups are in fact more Western; with the Baloch being considerably more Western than the Pathan samples but not that much more Western than the Afghan Pashtun samples. At a certain point, going North becomes a factor with Steppe contribution, that relationship becomes very prominent and apparent between the Pashtun and Baloch. The same West/East reasoning goes for Gujjar, Pahari, Awan vs. other non-Jatt Punjabis. I think a good way of illustrating this W/E Iran N/ASI cline is the fact that most Kashmiris score more ASI than most Jatts, despite being north of Punjab. It's because they are east of it.

The reason why I give the Lahore samples more weight than perhaps you like, is because most of population of Punjab in Pakistan, resides on the eastern border where Lahore is. Hence, I think it has to be given due consideration.

https://i.gyazo.com/4760b0ee11c9f84d19a9e453fb900009.jpg

PJL samples don't cluster with each other. Someone who I can't remember now uploaded results of 120 PJL samples using Harappa calc. Overall PJL samples are around 150. From 50 unrelated families consisting of father, mother and child. He stopped uploading rest of remaining 30 samples.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yroLfxb7NvkZ63tMJcRm-4yNH8PcXtzhJWm1Hpfr5-8/edit#gid=0

About half of samples are like those punjab jatts, arains, gujjars, awans, khatris etc About 40% likely belong to mussalis, chuhra, chamar etc like people. These people are found all over punjab living along side jatts, rajputs, etc in same village. Lahore isn't unique in that sense. We just don't get random samples without known background from rest of punjab like we did in case of Lahore.

wgjkkwjkf
09-04-2017, 12:43 AM
Actually he is right, a good chunk of Punjab is composed of Chamars , based from what Duffy said its about 30-35% , based of those PJL Lahore samples I think its a bit even higher there because of conversion. From what I have see of their Harappa results they are very Pan South Asian , their results seem very similar to other North Indians, as well that lower caste Gujaratis and even South Indian groups . Its safe to say these are your IVC people, as they lack the Euro admix which the other castes have but are found all over South Asia. I would assume Gujjars cluster with Jats and Arains but KHana would know more about Gujjars. East of the Indus in Pakistan ,generally most of the populations seem to be extensions of North Indian populations both lower and upper caste, but West of the Indus , those Chamar like groups completely vanish from what I am seeing is you have populations which skew between upper caste NW Indian populations and those found in SC Asia or Southern Iran. So interestingly the Khyber Pass does not act like a dividing line the Indus River does.

I was reading something today which gave a figure of 11% for Chamar community in Punjab indian side 2001. There are also other Dalit communities in cities and towns though which might make the total figure for Dalit communities larger to around 30%. Many of the Hindu and Sikh Dalit communities moved to Punjab at partition from Pakistan while Chrisitian Dalits remained mostly in Pakistan and did not migrate, but all those who migrated did not settle in Punjab of course, many settled in other states.

Arnaud Bzh
09-23-2017, 06:39 PM
https://i11.servimg.com/u/f11/13/25/56/02/ancien10.png (https://servimg.com/view/13255602/337)

tremaineharris
11-07-2017, 12:01 AM
My results

(Ancestry DNA)

AFRICAN 83.2%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)16.0%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)67.2%

STEPPE CULTURES 5.9%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)0.0%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)5.9%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)0.0%

ANCIENT FARMERS 4.9%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)1.4%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)3.4%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)0.0%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)0.0%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years) 4.0%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 2.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern) 0%

Lei_VA
05-25-2018, 04:45 AM
ANCIENT FARMERS 67.8%

WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years) 42.8%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years) 3.9%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years) 2.4%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years) 18.7%

STEPPE CULTURES 26.3%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years) 3.6%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years) 9.9%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years) 12.8%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN 4.8%

AFRICAN 1.1%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)1.1%