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RCO
08-04-2017, 09:00 PM
Article | OPEN

Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
Neus Solé-Morata, Patricia Villaescusa, Carla García-Fernández, Neus Font-Porterias, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Francesca Tassi, Silvia Ghirotto, Claude Férec, Karen Rouault, Susana Jiménez-Moreno, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, María T. Zarrabeitia, Ángel Carracedo, Marian M. de Pancorbo & Francesc Calafell

Abstract
Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

rms2
08-04-2017, 09:18 PM
. . . NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27 . . .

That part is really ridiculous, given the results of Olalde et al and the fact that Bell Beaker man I0806 (2431-2150 BC) from Quedlinburg, Germany, was DF27. He's the one who was evidently bow-legged from spending so much time on horseback.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ZK6Ne_WCw

Dewsloth
08-04-2017, 09:45 PM
I swear when I saw paoloferrari post this in the "New Reports" thread, I could already hear your teeth grinding. :lol:


You could hear mine grinding when I saw their overly-simplistic haplotree...

P.S. -- nobody tell them where Mr. Amesbury is from. :lol:

razyn
08-04-2017, 10:04 PM
Article | OPEN

Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.

I pretty much agree with this title, if only they had stopped there and let us guess at the methodology. But then:


We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage

In my opinion, that was their major shortcoming: not genotyping any R1b-DF27 chromosomes from the UK, the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc. The percentages in the total population (today) are less impressive, farther east -- but there is a lot of DF27 in the rest of the world. In some of those places it appears (from aDNA evidence, as well as from the stats in FTDNA projects, and other more broadly representative European ancestral pools) still to have been migrating westward, not having reached France or Iberia yet, around the time it separated from its brother U152.

This is not the only recent paper reflecting the same sampling myopia. Some good things are coming out in these papers, but the origin of DF27 is not one of them.

Edit: Here was my comment on the other one that springs to mind: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7246-DF27-is-not-primarily-an-quot-Iberian-quot-subclade&p=181216&viewfull=1#post181216

rms2
08-04-2017, 10:09 PM
. . .

This is not the only recent paper reflecting the same sampling myopia. Some good things are coming out in these papers, but the origin of DF27 is not one of them.

Modern y-dna is so 2007. We have to depend on ancient y-dna, and that includes depending on it for the straight skinny on DF27, as well.

MitchellSince1893
08-04-2017, 10:19 PM
Article | OPEN

Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
Neus Solé-Morata, Patricia Villaescusa, Carla García-Fernández, Neus Font-Porterias, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Francesca Tassi, Silvia Ghirotto, Claude Férec, Karen Rouault, Susana Jiménez-Moreno, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, María T. Zarrabeitia, Ángel Carracedo, Marian M. de Pancorbo & Francesc Calafell

Abstract
Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07710-x

I respectfully disagree with these results as it pertains to dates and location. For one DF27 is probably closer to 5000 years before present. Iain McDonald's latest estimate was 3028 BC (3741 BC — 2423 BC), but we know it has to be older than 2550 BC as RISE563 (brother U152 sample), was dated to 2572-2512 BC. And the oldest DF27 ancient sample I0806, Quedlinburg (North Central Germany) was from the Bell Beaker culture and dated to 2431-2150 BC, midpoint 2240 BC.

We know P312 is associated with eastern Bell Beaker going back to ~2500 BC and the ancient Bell Beaker samples had Steppe ancestry.

In present day population (from almost 3000 non UK and non Irish European FTDNA R1b samples), DF27 has an above average percentage in the Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, and Portugal,
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/b2/3d/21/b23d21a5eb165016fe3e2f6ad2b3a768.png

So it definitely has a Western European center of gravity in present day populations, but that doesn't in itself mean it originated in Iberia. Mr DF27, could have been born in the Steppes around ~3000 BC and he or his descendants could have moved into Central Europe soon there after. Or he could have been born in Central Europe and some of his descendants quickly spread to Western Europe and Iberia. Or he could have been born in Western Europe e.g. Germany, France, Low Countries.

But one cannot definitively say DF27 originated in Iberia circa 2200 BC. It has to be older than that based on the above data, probably closer to 3000 BC or earlier. I don't think there is evidence the steppe men reached Iberia by 3000 BC

The orthodox view of the proponents of the Kurgan theory is Yamnaya P312 moved up the Danube from near present day Ukraine ending up in the Carpathian Basin and having rapid growth in/near this area, obtaining a TRB/GAC like admixture along the way. Chad Rohlfsen mentioned
GAC/TRB rooted in Lengyel, has been proposed. I think it makes sense. Lengyel does keep popping up in many runs. An alternate view is P312 or his ancestors took a more northerly route into GAC/TRB territory to the north of the Carpathians, before spreading south into Moravia and on to Carpathian Basin and West into Germany and Western Europe.

razyn
08-04-2017, 10:48 PM
But one cannot definitively say DF27 originated in Iberia circa 2200 BC.

That's really the issue. It could be accurate with a little change in the word order: DF27 in Iberia originated circa 2200 BC. But before that, it appears (from the best evidence we have to date) to have been elsewhere, doing stuff, founding lineages, etc. for most of another millennium.

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2017, 03:04 PM
I'm not surprised about the statements in the study since the authors include those from the previous studies that included DF27 and since the authors don't use YFull, Alex Williamson's tree, or posts from forums. Has anyone ever sent any of the authors an email with the updated results that Rocca was able to find in I0806?

These are the previous studies that include DF27

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html
New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia

Laura Valverde, Maria José Illescas, Patricia Villaescusa, Amparo M Gotor, Ainara García, Sergio Cardoso, Jaime Algorta,, Susana Catarino, Karen Rouault, Claude Férec, Orla Hardiman, Maite Zarrabeitia, Susana Jiménez, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, Begoña M Jarreta, Jill Olofsson, Niels Morling and Marian M de Pancorbo


http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigss.2015.09.172
Dissection of the DF27 paternal lineage
P. Villaescusa, L. Valverde, M.J. Illescas, M.M. de Pancorbo


Although it has been pointed out that they haven't tested the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland. The Irish samples are included in this study as are the GBR (1000 genomes) and the TSI (1000 genomes). They could test hundreds of people in the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc and DF27 would still show to exist at a very low percentage in those regions. That would only strengthen their conclusion based on modern frequency of DF27. Just to clarify, I am not defending their conclusion.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 03:47 PM
I'm not surprised about the statements in the study since the authors include those from the previous studies that included DF27 and since the authors don't use YFull, Alex Williamson's tree, or posts from forums. Has anyone ever sent any of the authors an email with the updated results that Rocca was able to find in I0806?

These are the previous studies that include DF27

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v24/n3/abs/ejhg2015114a.html
New clues to the evolutionary history of the main European paternal lineage M: dissection of the Y-SNP S116 in Atlantic Europe and Iberia

Laura Valverde, Maria José Illescas, Patricia Villaescusa, Amparo M Gotor, Ainara García, Sergio Cardoso, Jaime Algorta,, Susana Catarino, Karen Rouault, Claude Férec, Orla Hardiman, Maite Zarrabeitia, Susana Jiménez, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, Begoña M Jarreta, Jill Olofsson, Niels Morling and Marian M de Pancorbo


http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.fsigss.2015.09.172
Dissection of the DF27 paternal lineage
P. Villaescusa, L. Valverde, M.J. Illescas, M.M. de Pancorbo


Although it has been pointed out that they haven't tested the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland. The Irish samples are included in this study as are the GBR (1000 genomes) and the TSI (1000 genomes). They could test hundreds of people in the Low Countries, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Ukraine, etc and DF27 would still show to exist at a very low percentage in those regions. That would only strengthen their conclusion based on modern frequency of DF27. Just to clarify, I am not defending their conclusion.

FWIW in the FTDNA project data DF27 was ~10% of R1b in Denmark (5 out of 52 samples). I haven't filtered through the numbers to remove the duplicates/multiple kits to same MRCA/surnames yet but the raw numbers for Ireland are 113 DF27 out of 2687 R1b samples or ~4%.

Busby and Myres had 91 samples in Denmark of which 40 were R1b or 44% R1b. That would translate my 10% of R1b to DF27 being around 4.4% of all haplogroups in Denmark

razyn
08-05-2017, 03:54 PM
in Valverde et al. 2015 they tested Denmark (n=174) and Ireland (n=146) and there was 0 DF27 in Denmark and 0.68% DF27 in Ireland.

On the other hand, Mitchell's recently posted maps (based on self-reported ancestral data from FTDNA project participants) had 52 R1b samples from Denmark, and his associated pie chart for that country says 9% (I guess that's 5 out of 52, actually 9.6%) were DF27+. I don't know what percentage of the total male Danish population it would be, these 52 were only R1b guys; but it does include U106, the rest of P312, etc. Not R1a, G, I, and other popular haplogroups. If interested, look for the orange in these pie charts, it's easy to find. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/3c/fe/ac3cfe1135c8860dff51139055efe522.png

rms2
08-05-2017, 03:58 PM
FWIW in the FTDNA project data DF27 was ~10% of R1b in Denmark (5 out of 52 samples). I haven't filtered through the numbers to remove the duplicates/multiple kits to same MRCA/surnames yet but the raw numbers for Ireland are 113 DF27 out of 2687 R1b samples or ~4%

This is obviously merely anecdotal, but in my experience as an FTDNA project admin for some pretty big projects (first the P312 Project, then the L21 Project) I have run into a lot of inaccurate claims about ancestral origin, especially when it comes to countries and regions high on the "wannabe" list. Scandinavia and Germany may be chief among them, and Norman ancestry was also really popular.

I am not saying that is what is producing the discrepancy in this case. I don't know what is, but I think some ancestral claims submitted by FTDNA customers are wanting in the accuracy department.

Of course, what you are talking about is the percentage of R1b rather than the percentage of the total male population.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 04:19 PM
This is obviously merely anecdotal, but in my experience as an FTDNA project admin for some pretty big projects (first the P312 Project, then the L21 Project) I have run into a lot of inaccurate claims about ancestral origin, especially when it comes to countries and regions high on the "wannabe" list. Scandinavia and Germany may be chief among them, and Norman ancestry was also really popular.

I am not saying that is what is producing the discrepancy in this case. I don't know what is, but I think some ancestral claims submitted by FTDNA customers are wanting in the accuracy department.

Of course, what you are talking about is the percentage of R1b rather than the percentage of the total male population.

I edited my post close to when you were typing yours

Busby and Myres had 91 samples in Denmark of which 40 were R1b or 44% R1b. That would translate my 10% of R1b to DF27 being around 4.4% of all haplogroups in Denmark

rms2
08-05-2017, 04:22 PM
I edited my post close to when you were typing yours



Busby and Myres had 91 samples in Denmark of which 40 were R1b or 44% R1b. That would translate my 10% of R1b to DF27 being around 4.4% of all haplogroups in Denmark.

Ai, Chihuahua!

I won't go there! Last time we talked about Busby, I just made all kinds of friends!

:behindsofa:

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 04:26 PM
On the other hand, Mitchell's recently posted maps (based on self-reported ancestral data from FTDNA project participants) had 52 R1b samples from Denmark, and his associated pie chart for that country says 9% (I guess that's 5 out of 52, actually 9.6%) were DF27+. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/3c/fe/ac3cfe1135c8860dff51139055efe522.png

I just checked my spreadsheet and piecchart. Spreadsheet says 9.6%, but piechart pulling from this data is calling it 9%...maybe it's trying to make the piechart come out to 100%. It's an easy fix, just need to change pie charts to add a decimal place to the percentages.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 04:34 PM
Ai, Chihuahua!

I won't go there! Last time we talked about Busby, I just made all kinds of friends! :behindsofa:

(I'm paranoid now at being misunderstood...so I've typed/edited this multiple times)
Busby and Myres are often the best thing we have in various locations and in this case (Denmark) they are great in providing a rough estimate of translating DF27 R1b percentages into overall hg percentages.

rms2
08-05-2017, 04:39 PM
(I'm paranoid now at being misunderstood...so I've typed/edited this multiple times)
Busby and Myres are often the best thing we have in various locations and in this case (Denmark) they are great in providing a rough estimate of translating DF27 R1b percentages into overall hg percentages.

I agree, but some of the implications of the data aren't too popular with just everyone.

I'll avoid that topic. I'm far more interested in ancient y-dna than in modern frequencies anyway.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 04:45 PM
I agree, but some of the implications of the data aren't too popular with just everyone.

I'll avoid that topic. I'm far more interested in ancient y-dna than in modern frequencies anyway.

We could create a separate thread and beat the crap out of this dead horse :deadhorse: just kidding
I actually don't have the energy...plus I'm now beginning the "fun" task of filtering through 772 FTDNA L21 samples in England. Ended up with 261 DF27s and 245 U152s for England.

I'm more dreading the 2225 FTDNA L21 samples for Ireland

rms2
08-05-2017, 04:49 PM
We could create a separate thread a beat the crap out of this dead horse :deadhorse:
I actually don't have the energy...plus I'm now beginning the "fun" task of filtering through 772 FTDNA L21 samples in England.

No thanks!

I'd become the horse everyone else would be trying to beat to death! One trip through the gauntlet is enough!

:tape:

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2017, 05:14 PM
FWIW in the FTDNA project data DF27 was ~10% of R1b in Denmark (5 out of 52 samples). I haven't filtered through the numbers to remove the duplicates/multiple kits to same MRCA/surnames yet but the raw numbers for Ireland are 113 DF27 out of 2687 R1b samples or ~4%.

Busby and Myres had 91 samples in Denmark of which 40 were R1b or 44% R1b. That would translate my 10% of R1b to DF27 being around 4.4% of all haplogroups in Denmark


On the other hand, Mitchell's recently posted maps (based on self-reported ancestral data from FTDNA project participants) had 52 R1b samples from Denmark, and his associated pie chart for that country says 9% (I guess that's 5 out of 52, actually 9.6%) were DF27+. I don't know what percentage of the total male Danish population it would be, these 52 were only R1b guys; but it does include U106, the rest of P312, etc. Not R1a, G, I, and other popular haplogroups. If interested, look for the orange in these pie charts, it's easy to find. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/ac/3c/fe/ac3cfe1135c8860dff51139055efe522.png

We do have the Busby et al. study which has the Myres et al. data from Denmark that used the absolute percentage of R1b-M269.

Denmark North 47.6%
Denmark West 36.8%
Denmark Southeast 26.5%

The absolute percent of P312xU152xL21 is the following:
7.1%
5.3%
4.1%

You can use that data in the same way that Mitchell made his maps:
14.95%
14.44%
15.47%


But in Busby et al. Spain has about 59% M269, 45% P312xU152xL21 so using Mitchell's calculation that is 76% DF27 in Spain.

YFull v5.04 only had 25 people from Denmark but only 8 of those were R1b. So that is 32% R1b out of all haplogroups in Denmark which isn't much different from Myres et al. 2 of the 8 were DF27 which is 25% but since Myres et al. show it to be much lower once more samples are used then YFull will likely show it be much lower once more people from Denmark get a YFull analysis.

YFull v5.05 has 9 R1b from Denmark but still only 2 that are DF27. I haven't had time to pull all of the Denmark samples from YFull v5.05.


Whichever way it is looked at Denmark as a whole still has a far lower percentage of DF27 than Spain, Portugal, or France which Mitchell, using DF27/R1b, shows as 60%, 54%, and 28% respectfully vs 9% in Denmark. It is the frequency of DF27 in modern sampling, which won't change significantly as a comparison to Spain, even when a lot more people from all of the countries in Europe are sampled, that causes some people to deduce the region of the origin of DF27. This won't change until academic studies show enough ancient specimens from outside Iberia and France show to be positive for subclades of DF27 and also show to not have any autosomal DNA that is found in Iberia prior to those specimens.

rms2
08-05-2017, 05:21 PM
. . . This won't change until academic studies show enough ancient specimens from outside Iberia and France show to be positive for subclades of DF27 and also show to not have any autosomal DNA that is found in Iberia prior to those specimens.

I agree. We can look forward to the raw data from Olalde et al coming out and perhaps some DF27 turning up in non-Iberian Bell Beaker.

From page 6 of Olalde et al:



These results support largely different origins for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia.

From page 8 of Olalde et al:



In Iberia, the majority of Beaker Complex-associated individuals lacked Steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between these groups based on analysis of mtDNA47 and dental morphology48.

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2017, 05:29 PM
This is obviously merely anecdotal, but in my experience as an FTDNA project admin for some pretty big projects (first the P312 Project, then the L21 Project) I have run into a lot of inaccurate claims about ancestral origin, especially when it comes to countries and regions high on the "wannabe" list. Scandinavia and Germany may be chief among them, and Norman ancestry was also really popular.

I am not saying that is what is producing the discrepancy in this case. I don't know what is, but I think some ancestral claims submitted by FTDNA customers are wanting in the accuracy department.

Of course, what you are talking about is the percentage of R1b rather than the percentage of the total male population.

Even with inaccurate claims about ancestral origin the overall picture of modern populations is the same whether we use Mitchell's maps, YFull, Myres et al. LivingDNA, or the cited studies they all show countries with samples have a far lower frequency of either DF27 or P312xU152xL21 compared to Spain, Portugal, and France.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 06:34 PM
Just a correction to what I previously posted.

There were 110 rather than 91 Denmark Busby/Mryes samples of which 40 (36.36%) were R1b.

If DF27 was 9.6% of R1b then it would be 9.6 x .3636 = 3.49% of all haplogroups in Denmark. A percentage pt lower than what I previously posted.

Ric
08-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Well, there is also the autosomal DNA to consider in the ancient samples and I recall that the ancient BB U152 and Df27 RISE560 from Augsburg were so close that people said they must have had a recent common ancestry. If the ancient DF27 men found in Germany originated from Iberia, so must be the bell beaker U152. Or at least it means that U152 and Df27 cannot have a vastly different ancestors. Df27 from Iberia while U152 from the steppe...how can they end up so similar in Germany ~2500BC ?

ArmandoR1b
08-05-2017, 09:02 PM
Well, there is also the autosomal DNA to consider in the ancient samples and I recall that the ancient BB U152 and Df27 RISE560 from Augsburg were so close that people said they must have had a recent common ancestry. If the ancient DF27 men found in Germany originated from Iberia, so must be the bell beaker U152. Or at least it means that U152 and Df27 cannot have a vastly different ancestors. Df27 from Iberia while U152 from the steppe...how can they end up so similar in Germany ~2500BC ?
The answer is that the origin of DF27 isn't Iberia. The only people in this thread, as far as I can tell, that thinks that DF27 originated in NE Iberia are the authors and they aren't basing their conclusion on BB U152 and DF27 RISE560 from Augsburg. They are basing their conclusion on the Villabruna and El Trocs ancient samples and modern frequency in Iberia, some places in France, and a few other places outside of Iberia and France.

rms2
08-05-2017, 09:51 PM
Even with inaccurate claims about ancestral origin the overall picture of modern populations is the same whether we use Mitchell's maps, YFull, Myres et al. LivingDNA, or the cited studies they all show countries with samples have a far lower frequency of either DF27 or P312xU152xL21 compared to Spain, Portugal, and France.

You know, I realize that and realized it when I posted my anecdote about inaccurate claims of ancestral origin, but awhile back I innocently mentioned that there was only so much P312xL21,U152 in the Busby stats left over to be divided up among the other subclades and as a consequence got roundly pounded, told how obviously flawed Busby et al is, etc.

So, I'll leave that to you, MitchellSince1893, and others. Some guys really, seriously don't like finding out their subclade isn't likely to be 25% or even 10% of the total y-dna in Germany or Scandinavia, and I'm not just talking about DF27.

I really don't care that much about Busby, certainly not enough to mount a defense of it. I just thought, hey, here's what we have, but, no, that was a bad idea.

razyn
08-05-2017, 09:53 PM
Has anyone ever sent any of the authors an email with the updated results that Rocca was able to find in I0806?

I certainly haven't.

But in that regard, a bit later in this thread Ric mentions RISE560. The DF27 sample that Rich Rocca originally made available for autosomal comparison with the U152 sample RISE563 was I0806 from Quedlinburg -- not RISE560 from Augsburg. Then Mitchell played with some of the utilities at Gedmatch: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8860-DF27-Bell-Beaker-Sample-Autosomal-Components&p=192827&viewfull=1#post192827

Rocca doesn't think RISE560 is DF27 (although I still do, provisionally). In a few months this won't matter, anyhow. I'm fairly confident that DF27 will prove to have been about as well represented as U152, in aDNA -- just as those brother clades have comparable representation in modern western European DNA. We just need the BAM files from Olalde et al (2017), and some savvy analyses of them. Something approaching a consensus is on the horizon.

RCO
08-05-2017, 10:42 PM
We don't know where DF27 first appeared but we don't have what we have in haplogroups like J1: an ancient and organized ethnohistorical cascade diagram of different clusters showing a spatial direction of expansion from the most basal to the most derived groups in the phylogenetic tree. Looks like there's not a proper DF27 basal structure and the single branches are completely scattered with several unrelated minor twigs and the only big organized structure can be really found in NE Iberia in terms of variation and depth as the article is showing.

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 10:45 PM
Letting sleeping dogs lie :) Or we can open a Busby numbers thread :biggrin1:

MitchellSince1893
08-05-2017, 11:32 PM
...The DF27 sample that Rich Rocca originally made available for autosomal comparison with the U152 sample RISE563 was I0806 from Quedlinburg -- not RISE560 from Augsburg. Then Mitchell played with some of the utilities at Gedmatch: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8860-DF27-Bell-Beaker-Sample-Autosomal-Components&p=192827&viewfull=1#post192827

...

Here is the K36 tool with map on RISE563 (U152) http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10813-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10566-U152-Specific-Discussions-from-the-New-Papers-released-10-May-2017&p=247815&viewfull=1#post247815
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16956&d=1497673991

Closest to present day Dutch and Danish, followed by English and Scottish.

And here it is for I0806 (oldest DF27 known) Closest to present day Ireland and Brittany, followed by N. Ireland and Northern France, then Wales and Scotland. With the exception of Northern France, for whatever reason he has an affinity to present day speakers of Insular Celtic Languages.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9f/7a/a0/9f7aa0da4ae553c1c630ecdfa9810573.png

rms2
08-06-2017, 12:39 AM
Letting sleeping dogs lie :) Or we can open a Busby numbers thread :biggrin1:

Letting it lie, which is what that last post was: an explanation for not going there anymore.

We already did the Busby thing. It was all wrong, and potential frequencies of any and all clades are wide open, especially anywhere anyone seriously wants them to be.

;)

Webb
08-06-2017, 01:15 AM
On Alex's tree, I'm clustered with a Dane. A real life Dane, he has the flag to prove it!!! And two Swedes and two Dutchmen. DF27 is there on the fringes, I am sure. However, most of these studies are snatching a random sample then inspecting what was captured without having a stake in the outcome verses a study where the goal is to search only for DF27, overturning every rock until its found. Again there is no doubt of DF27's density in the Iberian peninsula. The study did examine the age of DF27 there. This is enough for me. I think that P312's presence in the North Sea area is pretty remarkable and we should credit this with the massive expansion of P312 and clades during the maximal spread.

Webb
08-06-2017, 01:40 AM
Here is the K36 tool with map on RISE563 (U152) http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10813-Tool-for-K36-your-similarities-rates-on-maps
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10566-U152-Specific-Discussions-from-the-New-Papers-released-10-May-2017&p=247815&viewfull=1#post247815
http://www.anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=16956&d=1497673991

Closest to present day Dutch and Danish, followed by English and Scottish.

And here it is for I0806 (oldest DF27 known) Closest to present day Ireland and Brittany, followed by N. Ireland and Northern France, then Wales and Scotland. With the exception of Northern France, for whatever reason he has an affinity to present day speakers of Insular Celtic Languages.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/9f/7a/a0/9f7aa0da4ae553c1c630ecdfa9810573.png

It is interesting that these results do not align with U152's modern concentration in Northern Italy and DF27's concentration in the Iberian peninsula. You almost could assume that these two moved into the areas of modern concentration much more recently, say around 1000 B.C. or thereabouts? Also isn't it thought that Celtic languages in the Iberian peninsula had the "q" feature? There is enough L21 in Spain now that it would be difficult to figure out who is responsible.

Arch
08-06-2017, 07:14 AM
RCO. Thank you for the post. I'm not sure what to make of the assertion that DF27 originated in NE Iberia, but I do know when evaluating the Catalan surname research project that many SRY2627 showed up in the Ebro River region of Catalonia (Tarragon and Llieda Provinces), as well Mallorca, versus the Pyrenees. Diversity of SRY2627 seems higher in the southern Catalonia than in northern stretches of Catalonia. In terms of the later spread of the subclade as it relates to the Crown of Aragon expansion into Valencia, Balearic Islands, Sardinia, some outposts in Algeria, Sicily, southern Italy, and portions of Greece I wouldn't be surprised, but this is so much later. Iberians/Celtiberians were in regions such as Sicily as well in Tunisia during the Punic wars and better correlates to the age/timeframe for any SRY2627 or L176.2 to show up outside of Iberia (excluding migration from Central Europe). Whatever the case, this is an important study and dismissive responses should be taken with a grain of salt.

Arch
08-06-2017, 07:30 AM
ArmandoR1b

Yes, that often is overlooked with people perhaps jockeying for their favorite region of origin or to refute as much as the evidence as possible regardless of how many studies are conducted.

Arch
08-06-2017, 07:32 AM
The answer is that the origin of DF27 isn't Iberia. The only people in this thread, as far as I can tell, that thinks that DF27 originated in NE Iberia are the authors and they aren't basing their conclusion on BB U152 and DF27 RISE560 from Augsburg. They are basing their conclusion on the Villabruna and El Trocs ancient samples and modern frequency in Iberia, some places in France, and a few other places outside of Iberia and France.

BINGO! Exactly!

Arch
08-06-2017, 07:33 AM
That part is really ridiculous, given the results of Olalde et al and the fact that Bell Beaker man I0806 (2431-2150 BC) from Quedlinburg, Germany, was DF27. He's the one who was evidently bow-legged from spending so much time on horseback.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5ZK6Ne_WCw

Maybe the paper was written when the evidence wasn't available or published.

Arch
08-06-2017, 07:40 AM
Hmmm, 4194 ya (median age) in the study for DF27 is very close to 2150 BC. Maybe DF27 found in this region of Germany actually migrated from Iberia?

rms2
08-06-2017, 01:56 PM
Hmmm, 4194 ya (median age) in the study for DF27 is very close to 2150 BC. Maybe DF27 found in this region of Germany actually migrated from Iberia?

No.

I posted this already in this thread, but it bears repeating.

From page 6 of Olalde et al:



These results support largely different origins for Beaker Complex individuals, with no discernible Iberia-related ancestry outside Iberia.


From page 8 of Olalde et al:



In Iberia, the majority of Beaker Complex-associated individuals lacked Steppe affinities and were genetically most similar to preceding Iberian populations. In central Europe, Steppe ancestry was widespread and we can exclude a substantial contribution from Iberian Beaker Complex-associated individuals, contradicting initial suggestions of gene flow between these groups based on analysis of mtDNA47 and dental morphology48.


None of the Iberian Neolithic and early Iberian Bell Beaker stuff tested by Olalde et al was even R1b-M269 let alone R1b-P312 or R1b-DF27.

Ric
08-06-2017, 02:07 PM
It is amusing to see that it is Nature, with capital N and the big $, versus the forum of dudes.
A forum of dudes' win would certainly turn it into a forum of Educated posters and earn it some respect.

rms2
08-06-2017, 02:12 PM
It is amusing to see that it is Nature, with capital N and the big $, versus the forum of dudes.
A forum of dudes' win would certainly turn it into a forum of Educated posters and earn it some respect.

I apologize for being a little slow in the uptake. I understand the article linked in the OP appears at nature.com, but the rest of your post went over my head.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean.

ADW_1981
08-06-2017, 03:17 PM
Out of 72 members I counted S21184+ in the DF27 project, only 1 of them is Iberian. It is somewhat interesting though since at the base node Z220, those negative for both S21184/Z295, many appear to be Iberian. For a region that has limited gene flow, it seems there was a lot of back and forth during the Bronze Age.

rms2
08-06-2017, 03:44 PM
Out of 72 members I counted S21184+ in the DF27 project, only 1 of them is Iberian. It is somewhat interesting though since at the base node Z220, those negative for both S21184/Z295, many appear to be Iberian. For a region that has limited gene flow, it seems there was a lot of back and forth during the Bronze Age.

Perhaps one of the places the pre-S21184 line went was to Iberia, but S21184 itself arose from it someplace else, like France perhaps. I'm not arguing for France as the Urheimat of S21184; I'm just using it as an example. I don't know enough about S21184 to have an opinion on where it originated.

Olalde et al weren't arguing about gene flow to and from Iberia in the Bronze Age and subsequently. They were saying there was no significant Iberian input in non-Iberian Bell Beaker. They were addressing the idea that Bell Beaker arose in Iberia and spread east from there, which was the Out-of-Iberia Hypothesis.

Ric
08-06-2017, 04:31 PM
I apologize for being a little slow in the uptake. I understand the article linked in the OP appears at nature.com, but the rest of your post went over my head.

Perhaps you can explain what you mean. Nature is prestigious, respected, peer reviewed etc. so when Nature says DF27 appeared in Iberia, in Iberia it did. And when a forum of anonymous posters says otherwise, well it's an opinion.
But, if the forum turns out to be right and Nature is wrong, and this becomes known, won't there be any impact on this particular type of research ?

rms2
08-06-2017, 04:38 PM
Nature is prestigious, respected, peer reviewed etc. so when Nature says DF27 appeared in Iberia, in Iberia it did. And when a forum of anonymous posters says otherwise, well it's an opinion.

Really, even when the Nature paper to which you refer is obviously proven wrong not by our opinions but by the much more prestigious and better researched Olalde et al paper, The Beaker Phenomenon and the Genomic Transformation of Northwest Europe (http://www.biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135962)?

There have been papers published in all sorts of respected venues that were wrong. Publication on a prestigious web site is no guarantee of infallibility. This DF27 paper is a classic illustration of that.



But, if the forum turns out to be right and Nature is wrong, and this becomes known, won't there be any impact on this particular type of research ?

Olalde et al have already proven it wrong, and the impact is coming. Apparently the folks behind this DF27 paper were not aware of the Olalde et al results when they wrote their erroneous conclusion about where DF27 originated.

Ric
08-06-2017, 04:52 PM
Apparently the folks behind this DF27 paper were not aware of the Olalde et al results when they wrote their erroneous conclusion about where DF27 originated.
just reading this forum could have been useful aka : 'when you have to read forums to stay up to date with science'
PS I was being a bit sarcastic...

rms2
08-06-2017, 05:24 PM
just reading this forum could have been useful aka : 'when you have to read forums to stay up to date with science'
PS I was being a bit sarcastic...

Actually that is one of the main reasons I visit Anthrogenica, to keep up with the latest developments, especially in ancient dna.

My main interest is my own y-dna line, but there isn't always a lot going on on that front.

ADW_1981
08-06-2017, 08:22 PM
Perhaps one of the places the pre-S21184 line went was to Iberia, but S21184 itself arose from it someplace else, like France perhaps. I'm not arguing for France as the Urheimat of S21184; I'm just using it as an example. I don't know enough about S21184 to have an opinion on where it originated.

Olalde et al weren't arguing about gene flow to and from Iberia in the Bronze Age and subsequently. They were saying there was no significant Iberian input in non-Iberian Bell Beaker. They were addressing the idea that Bell Beaker arose in Iberia and spread east from there, which was the Out-of-Iberia Hypothesis.

Based on the data, it looks like the area between France and Germany are the strongest candidates for a birthplace of S21184+. I'm not certain about Z220. In terms of some branches being born in Spain sometime after the early Bronze age, I am not against it, I just don't think all the lineages stayed put. Some lines likely moved back north east.

A good read, you can bet DF27 were among those male warriors moving around.
http://www.rockartscandinavia.com/images/articles/a14ling.pdf

razyn
08-07-2017, 02:37 PM
There have been papers published in all sorts of respected venues that were wrong. Publication on a prestigious web site is no guarantee of infallibility. This DF27 paper is a classic illustration of that.
And much remains to be unlearned.

18009

This map with its caption illustrates the misleading effect of "heat" maps (and not incidentally, the glacial pace of peer-reviewed academic publication). It comes from p. 132 of Cunliffe and Koch, eds., Celtic from the West (Oxbow Books, 2012). This is a book of conference proceedings. The conference was held in Dec. 2008. The editors signed their Introduction in Sept. 2009. The printed volume was released 31 March 2012 by Oxbow Books, the prestigious publishing arm for archaeology (and related topics) of the Oxford University Press. By that time the book's data and opinions about YDNA haplogroups as presented by Stephen Oppenheimer (originally, in works of 2006 and 2007) were largely obsolete, and in several respects known to be mistaken. But in 2008, when the first "Celtic from the West" conference was held, Oppenheimer's early speculations had not yet been overtaken by the massive genetic evidence to the contrary.

With specific reference to Z196/Z195 (and later their parent haplogroup DF27), those SNPs were only discovered, and named, in 2011.

rms2
08-07-2017, 04:28 PM
And much remains to be unlearned.

18009

This map with its caption illustrates the misleading effect of "heat" maps (and not incidentally, the glacial pace of peer-reviewed academic publication). It comes from p. 132 of Cunliffe and Koch, eds., Celtic from the West (Oxbow Books, 2012). This is a book of conference proceedings. The conference was held in Dec. 2008. The editors signed their Introduction in Sept. 2009. The printed volume was released 31 March 2012 by Oxbow Books, the prestigious publishing arm for archaeology (and related topics) of the Oxford University Press. By that time the book's data and opinions about YDNA haplogroups as presented by Stephen Oppenheimer (originally, in works of 2006 and 2007) were largely obsolete, and in several respects known to be mistaken. But in 2008, when the first "Celtic from the West" conference was held, Oppenheimer's early speculations had not yet been overtaken by the massive genetic evidence to the contrary.

With specific reference to Z196/Z195 (and later their parent haplogroup DF27), those SNPs were only discovered, and named, in 2011.

Well said.

I get a slightly nauseous feeling when I see maps like that from the bad old days before ancient y-dna and the dawning of good sense.

Arch
08-08-2017, 12:05 AM
Unfortunately, even peer reviewed articles end up with mistakes for all the hard work done; that's just the reality. Nonetheless, a very important paper.

Arch
08-08-2017, 12:10 AM
Keep in mind what information was available back then. I see no value in attacking past research, rather learning from the unknown mistakes is far more valuable and contributes to better understanding. Nothing is ever perfect. What is critical, is getting this information to academia so the lessons-learned will avoid propagating research articles/papers with erroneous or outdated information.

Arch
08-08-2017, 12:14 AM
Right. True. Therefore, people not pots.

Arch
08-10-2017, 09:11 AM
Modern y-DNA has some value in "modern" ancestry. Does ancient y-DNA hold promise in finding a true Urheimat? Both have issues - not enough! We'll be searching forever looking for the "homeland" with ancient y-DNA and dwindling finite source-material available. No? Si? :suspicious:

alvaroabascal
03-03-2018, 12:27 PM
Article | OPEN

Analysis of the R1b-DF27 haplogroup shows that a large fraction of Iberian Y-chromosome lineages originated recently in situ.
Neus Solé-Morata, Patricia Villaescusa, Carla García-Fernández, Neus Font-Porterias, María José Illescas, Laura Valverde, Francesca Tassi, Silvia Ghirotto, Claude Férec, Karen Rouault, Susana Jiménez-Moreno, Begoña Martínez-Jarreta, Maria Fátima Pinheiro, María T. Zarrabeitia, Ángel Carracedo, Marian M. de Pancorbo & Francesc Calafell

Abstract
Haplogroup R1b-M269 comprises most Western European Y chromosomes; of its main branches, R1b-DF27 is by far the least known, and it appears to be highly prevalent only in Iberia. We have genotyped 1072 R1b-DF27 chromosomes for six additional SNPs and 17 Y-STRs in population samples from Spain, Portugal and France in order to further characterize this lineage and, in particular, to ascertain the time and place where it originated, as well as its subsequent dynamics. We found that R1b-DF27 is present in frequencies ~40% in Iberian populations and up to 70% in Basques, but it drops quickly to 6–20% in France. Overall, the age of R1b-DF27 is estimated at ~4,200 years ago, at the transition between the Neolithic and the Bronze Age, when the Y chromosome landscape of W Europe was thoroughly remodeled. In spite of its high frequency in Basques, Y-STR internal diversity of R1b-DF27 is lower there, and results in more recent age estimates; NE Iberia is the most likely place of origin of DF27. Subhaplogroup frequencies within R1b-DF27 are geographically structured, and show domains that are reminiscent of the pre-Roman Celtic/Iberian division, or of the medieval Christian kingdoms.



Well, I'm not going to discuss the technical insights of the paper, but it definitely has a very clear political/regionalist content. You only have to look at where within Spain do the main authors of the paper come from ...

Arch
04-23-2018, 06:41 AM
Well, I'm not going to discuss the technical insights of the paper, but it definitely has a very clear political/regionalist content. You only have to look at where within Spain do the main authors of the paper come from ...

So that explains it. You can't be serious. Did you determine their biases too? C'mon.

rms2
04-24-2018, 11:31 PM
I don't usually butt in on DF27 discussions, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things that seem relevant.

First, YFull has the TMRCA of DF27 at about 4500 ybp. Since "present" for YFull is 1950, that takes us back to about 2550 BC. Kurgan Bell Beaker only began to arrive in Iberia after 2500 BC, so that is cutting things a trifle close for DF27 to be born in Iberia.

Secondly there is this quote from Reich's new book (provided by R. Rocca in this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=376974&viewfull=1#post376974)).



This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along the with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.


Rich Rocca mentioned that Reich cited as his source "West Iberia; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory." And Reich also mentions Dan Bradley's SMURFIT lab, so that is confirmation from two independent labs.

Personally, I think it is pretty clear that DF27 arrived in Iberia with Kurgan Bell Beaker (and by Kurgan, I mean of steppe derivation).

ADW_1981
04-24-2018, 11:54 PM
I don't usually butt in on DF27 discussions, but I just wanted to point out a couple of things that seem relevant.

First, YFull has the TMRCA of DF27 at about 4500 ybp. Since "present" for YFull is 1950, that takes us back to about 2550 BC. Kurgan Bell Beaker only began to arrive in Iberia after 2500 BC, so that is cutting things a trifle close for DF27 to be born in Iberia.

Secondly there is this quote from Reich's new book (provided by R. Rocca in this post (https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13779-R1b-L11-Where-from&p=376974&viewfull=1#post376974)).



Rich Rocca mentioned that Reich cited as his source "West Iberia; unpublished results from David Reich's laboratory." And Reich also mentions Dan Bradley's SMURFIT lab, so that is confirmation from two independent labs.

Personally, I think it is pretty clear that DF27 arrived in Iberia with Kurgan Bell Beaker (and by Kurgan, I mean of steppe derivation).

Other papers have also pointed out that there was local mtDNA continuity which is the most likely explanation for the drop in steppe ancestry. Once they lost it, there wasn't sufficient female mates arriving from the source to maintain the level of "steppe" ancestry.

An interesting question is why that would be the case? Did the new population (R1b) realize this prior to making the trek south west? Perhaps the seas/mountains from France to Spain were more hazardous than the trek across the channel to Britain.

rms2
04-25-2018, 12:10 AM
Maybe there was a drop in the native Neolithic British population before Kurgan Bell Beaker arrived there, so that the pool of natives was reduced. It could be that the native Iberian population was just larger than the native Neolithic population of Britain, so that Kurgan Bell Beaker people who went to Iberia had a much larger native population to contend with. Apparently they still replaced the male population of Iberia pretty drastically.

Underworld
04-25-2018, 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by David Reich
This preponderance of male ancestry coming from the steppe implies that male descendants of the Yamnaya with political or social power were more successful at competing for local mates than men from the local groups. The most striking example I know of is from Iberia in far southwestern Europe, where Yamnaya-derived ancestry arrived at the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago. Daniel Bradley's laboratory and my laboratory independently produced ancient DNA from individuals of this period.[28] We found that approximately 30 percent of the Iberian population was replaced along the with the arrival of steppe ancestry. However, the replacement of Y chromosomes was much more dramatic: in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time. It is clear there were extraordinary hierarchies and imbalances in power at work in the expansions from the steppe.

R1b in Portugal is around 60%, and autosomally the Portuguese can be modeled at around 45-50% Central European Bell-Beaker. I'm not seeing the whole extreme male-bias to be honest. It's actually very slight.

Obviously the Central European Bell-Beakers already weren't pure Steppe or anything like that, they had quite a bit of Neolithic farmer ancestry too. The Bell-Beakers that entered Iberia would have gone through and come from modern day France, certainly picking a bit more Neolithic farmer ancestry. Obviously, if David Reich is seeing that ratio of actual Steppe ancestry in Iberia versus the amount of R1b, It looks very male-biased, but it doesn't if one understands that the Bell-Beakers entering Iberia weren't even close to being of pure Steppe ancestry.

rms2
04-25-2018, 12:44 AM
R1b in Portugal is around 60%, and autosomally the Portuguese can be modeled at around 45-50% Central European Bell-Beaker. I'm not seeing the whole extreme male-bias to be honest. It's actually very slight.

I think you're confusing modern dna with ancient dna. Reich was talking about ancient dna. You seem to be talking about modern Portugal, which is separated from the third millennium BC by over 4,000 years.



Obviously the Central European Bell-Beakers already weren't pure Steppe or anything like that, they had quite a bit of Neolithic farmer ancestry too. The Bell-Beakers that entered Iberia would have gone through and come from modern day France, certainly picking a bit more Neolithic farmer ancestry. Obviously, if David Reich is seeing that ratio of actual Steppe ancestry in Iberia versus the amount of R1b, It looks very male-biased, but it doesn't if one understands that the Bell-Beakers entering Iberia weren't even close to being of pure Steppe ancestry.

I guess your quarrel is with Reich. He did say, ". . . in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time." So, not only is he referring to steppe autosomal dna but also pretty obviously to R1b-L23, which was not present in Iberia before Kurgan Bell Beaker.

ArmandoR1b
04-25-2018, 01:01 AM
R1b in Portugal is around 60%, and autosomally the Portuguese can be modeled at around 45-50% Central European Bell-Beaker. I'm not seeing the whole extreme male-bias to be honest. It's actually very slight.

Obviously the Central European Bell-Beakers already weren't pure Steppe or anything like that, they had quite a bit of Neolithic farmer ancestry too. The Bell-Beakers that entered Iberia would have gone through and come from modern day France, certainly picking a bit more Neolithic farmer ancestry. Obviously, if David Reich is seeing that ratio of actual Steppe ancestry in Iberia versus the amount of R1b, It looks very male-biased, but it doesn't if one understands that the Bell-Beakers entering Iberia weren't even close to being of pure Steppe ancestry.

By mentioning the modern population of Portugal you have taken it out of context and you have gone off-topic from the post. The discussion was about ancient samples only. Out of all of the ancient samples from the onset of the Bronze Age between forty-five hundred and four thousand years ago around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time.

Underworld
04-25-2018, 01:28 AM
I think you're confusing modern dna with ancient dna. Reich was talking about ancient dna. You seem to be talking about modern Portugal, which is separated from the third millennium BC by over 4,000 years.



I guess your quarrel is with Reich. He did say, ". . . in our data around 90 percent of males who carry Yamnaya ancestry have a Y-chromosome type of steppe origin that was absent in Iberia prior to that time." So, not only is he referring to steppe autosomal dna but also pretty obviously to R1b-L23, which was not present in Iberia before Kurgan Bell Beaker.

Yes, my comment was more about Reich's statement, not yours, that's why I only quoted Reich. I found his example a bit weird because he says "approximately 30% of the Iberian population was replaced" when It's probably quite a bit more.

ADW_1981
04-25-2018, 02:50 AM
R1b in Portugal is around 60%, and autosomally the Portuguese can be modeled at around 45-50% Central European Bell-Beaker. I'm not seeing the whole extreme male-bias to be honest. It's actually very slight.


Which model? I just haven't seen anything like that. There is a fairly big difference between Bronze Age Central Europeans and the recent genomes from Bronze Age Portugal. Most definitely signs of migration from central Europe, but the steppe ancestry is diluted quite a bit. It could be the sampling as well because I know some of the Central European BB, even some R1b ones at the time have significant EEF.

Underworld
04-25-2018, 03:49 PM
Which model? I just haven't seen anything like that. There is a fairly big difference between Bronze Age Central Europeans and the recent genomes from Bronze Age Portugal. Most definitely signs of migration from central Europe, but the steppe ancestry is diluted quite a bit. It could be the sampling as well because I know some of the Central European BB, even some R1b ones at the time have significant EEF.

Since Iberians had no ANE before the arrival of Steppe ancestry from Central Europe, It becomes easy to make a rough model of how much Central-European Bell-Beaker-like ancestry modern Iberians have. The Basal-Rich K7 population average spreadsheet has modern Iberians at 8-9% ANE, and Bell_Beaker_Germany at 18-19% ANE, meaning modern Iberians can be modeled as being roughly 50% Central European Bell-Beaker.

Ruderico
04-27-2018, 11:09 AM
Which model? I just haven't seen anything like that. There is a fairly big difference between Bronze Age Central Europeans and the recent genomes from Bronze Age Portugal. Most definitely signs of migration from central Europe, but the steppe ancestry is diluted quite a bit. It could be the sampling as well because I know some of the Central European BB, even some R1b ones at the time have significant EEF.

Back in Eurogenes Anthro Survey posted a model for modern Iberians, while trying to figure out if they preferred different types of ancestry. While obviously it shouldn't be seen as perfectly accurate, it does give us a rough average of Beaker-like ancestry, and it seems rather consistent across Iberia


Modern Iberia using Beaker_Central_Europe
https://justpaste.it/75i05

Modern Iberia using Beaker DF27 ave
https://justpaste.it/4tm0p
source: https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?postID=2193346162909990060&blogID=4123559132014627431&isPopup=true&page=2

So basically 50-60%. This didn't happen in one single event, but over millenia. Besides the original Beakers from the 2nd Beaker Horizon (2500-2000BC) you have Urfield in East Iberia, Atlantic Cist tradition (https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7iKjvzvl70Q/WK-0YDonZgI/AAAAAAAAFVY/mdfBydeS6-AybzG9F-5Ix5-XHmtgbhEdQCLcB/s1600/Koch.jpg), Hallstatt groups (Celts and para-Celts), Romans, Migration period Germans, and possible middle age settlers from Western Europe.