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Don Felipe
08-04-2017, 10:08 PM
In order to improve correct interpretation of AncestryDNA’s regions i have been collecting AncestryDNA results of persons with a single European background.

Follow these links for more details:



Online Spreadsheet with European AncestryDNA results (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=1203387096)
AncestryDNA results from Europe (blog post) (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/2017/08/04/ancestrydna-results-from-europe/)



Below my main findings:

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/eu-stats-pt24.png



A total of 175 samples with backgrounds from atleast 20 different European countries/ethnicities has been used for my main survey findings. This seems like a reasonably robust number to pick up on some preliminary patterns. Even when for some of the separate nationalities i was only able to obtain a minimal sample size. As can also be verified from Ancestry's own information (https://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/ethnicity) as well as the above chart the prediction accuracy of the nine European regions reported by AncestryDNA is variable. The Western European regions (in particular “Iberian Peninsula” & “Great Britain”) being least predictive and the “Ireland”, “Europe East”, “Finland/NW Russia” and “European Jewish” categories being quite reliable (atleast for people of confirmed background!).

Afterall some types of European DNA are less complex to distinguish than others mostly due to historical reasons. But also the particular constellation of AncestryDNA’s reference panel (https://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/ethnicity/reference-panel) and its algorithm being focused on detecting origins from possibly “thousands of years ago” are important aspects to take into consideration. The chart above featuring my main European survey findings is therefore best understood when you keep in mind overlapping geography/genetics and ancient migrations across the continent.


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/tuga.jpg



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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/espana.jpg



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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/france.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/uk.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/eire.jpg

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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/nlbede.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/scando.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/italia.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/grecia.jpg

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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/oostblok1.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/oostblok2.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/balkan.jpg


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/ashkenazi.jpg

Don Felipe
08-06-2017, 10:30 PM
Separate page featuring Portuguese & Spanish results:

Iberian AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/)

Summary of Portuguese/Azorean survey findings sofar:

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/pt-stats-n24.png

Sikeliot
08-06-2017, 10:39 PM
The SSA in the Madeiran shows up as which African region?

Also of the Italians do you know which are southerners and from which region? How many Greek islanders do you have and how do they score?

Jessie
08-07-2017, 02:38 AM
I'm 100% Irish so you can add my results if you wish.

18001

sktibo
08-07-2017, 02:52 AM
this is absolutely great work you've done. I've found that the Great Britain category in particular was problematic and that when the same individual tested more than once this percentage would fluctuate and some of it would go into Scandinavian, Ireland, or Europe West.
I wish I had some samples for you but none of my family or friends kits are pure, many are almost. Thanks for sharing your work here.. if he doesn't find you first i suggest hunting down Norfolk and adding his data

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 10:29 AM
I'm 100% Irish so you can add my results if you wish.

Excellent, thanks! Have you also been assigned to one of Ancestry's Genetic Communities? I'm curious to know if there's any correlation between ethnicity estimates & genetic communities. For several Irish & British results i have both but of course my sample size is quite minimal. Hopefully Ancestry.UK will publish something about this topic eventually.

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 10:42 AM
this is absolutely great work you've done. I've found that the Great Britain category in particular was problematic and that when the same individual tested more than once this percentage would fluctuate and some of it would go into Scandinavian, Ireland, or Europe West.
I wish I had some samples for you but none of my family or friends kits are pure, many are almost. Thanks for sharing your work here.. if he doesn't find you first i suggest hunting down Norfolk and adding his data

Thank you very much! I intend to create a separate page for British & Irish results eventually. I will also refer to that study which was done recently based on Ancestry's customer database. There were several news papers referring to that study and also publishing very useful regional averages which seem quite in line with what i found sofar even when based on a much smaller sample size :biggrin1:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg

I have however not found anything yet on the original source of that study. Do you or anyone else perhaps have more details? I'm guessing it was just a in-house study by Ancestry which has not been published yet? I'm wondering exactly how many UK samples they used.

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 10:52 AM
The SSA in the Madeiran shows up as which African region?

Also of the Italians do you know which are southerners and from which region? How many Greek islanders do you have and how do they score?

I do not know for the Madeiran, i only have the screenshot (check the Iberian results page). However i'm doubtful if at that level (<1%) it will be reported with much accuracy.
I intend to create a separate page for Italian & Balkan results eventually. I will post the link here. I do not have the regional origins for any of the Greeks however for i do have about 10 confirmed Sicilians within my Italian sample group as well as atleast 2 from Central Italy, i suspect Northern Italian origins for another two samples (check the spreadsheet).

Jessie
08-07-2017, 11:02 AM
Excellent, thanks! Have you also been assigned to one of Ancestry's Genetic Communities? I'm curious to know if there's any correlation between ethnicity estimates & genetic communities. For several Irish & British results i have both but of course my sample size is quite minimal. Hopefully Ancestry.UK will publish something about this topic eventually.

Yes I've been assigned to Irish in Southern Ireland.

Overview
Cradled by mountains and covered by a patchwork of inhospitable bogs, Munster was the perfect hiding place for rebels and outlaws who sought refuge from British authority. During the Great Famine, many Munster inhabitants fled their homes to escape poverty and starvation. The poorest made the short hop across the Irish Sea to Britain, while others traveled across the world to Australia or America, where they settled in New York, Boston, and urban centers across the Midwest.

http://i65.tinypic.com/1zlxjd4.jpg

ArmandoR1b
08-07-2017, 11:43 AM
Great thread. The next step to determine if those components can truly be replicated is to find more than 5 family groups where both parents and at least one child of each parental group is available. If a child gets something at a large percentage that the parents don't or if a child is missing something that at least one parent has at a large percentage of then the calculator fails.

Also, the excessive amount of Iberian in French and Italy/Greece in Iberia and France is disappointing. Those components at 23andme can be very helpful when they exist in amounts of more than 10% at 23andme but not at AncestryDNA.

sktibo
08-07-2017, 03:11 PM
Great thread. The next step to determine if those components can truly be replicated is to find more than 5 family groups where both parents and at least one child of each parental group is available. If a child gets something at a large percentage that the parents don't or if a child is missing something that at least one parent has at a large percentage of then the calculator fails.

Also, the excessive amount of Iberian in French and Italy/Greece in Iberia and France is disappointing. Those components at 23andme can be very helpful when they exist in amounts of more than 10% at 23andme but not at AncestryDNA.

I might be able to help there: just ordered a kit for my mother and i have my father's results already.

sktibo
08-07-2017, 03:13 PM
Thank you very much! I intend to create a separate page for British & Irish results eventually. I will also refer to that study which was done recently based on Ancestry's customer database. There were several news papers referring to that study and also publishing very useful regional averages which seem quite in line with what i found sofar even when based on a much smaller sample size :biggrin1:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg

I have however not found anything yet on the original source of that study. Do you or anyone else perhaps have more details? I'm guessing it was just a in-house study by Ancestry which has not been published yet? I'm wondering exactly how many UK samples they used.

I don't have the details, but ancestry's studies with their test appear to contradict what i see on this forum with British people posting their results, so I don't take ancestry's studies on Britain seriously.

Sikeliot
08-07-2017, 04:30 PM
Can you post the spreadsheet link? If you know the region for each Sicilian that would help a lot for me.

sweuro
08-07-2017, 05:43 PM
There is also the official averages :

https://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170207/ncomms14238/extref/ncomms14238-s4.xlsx

mwauthy
08-07-2017, 05:52 PM
My father is 100% Wallonian Belgian. You can add his results if you wish.

Europe: 96%
Europe West: 66%
Iberian Peninsula: 10%
Ireland: 6%
Scandinavia: 5%
Italy/Greece: 4%
Great Britain: 4%
Europe East: 1%

West Asia: 4%
Caucasus: 4%

CelticGerman
08-07-2017, 06:01 PM
The German result seems to be mine. You could add trace regions Italy/Greece 1%, Ireland 1%, Finland/Northwest Russia less than 1%

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 07:26 PM
Great thread. The next step to determine if those components can truly be replicated is to find more than 5 family groups where both parents and at least one child of each parental group is available. If a child gets something at a large percentage that the parents don't or if a child is missing something that at least one parent has at a large percentage of then the calculator fails.

Also, the excessive amount of Iberian in French and Italy/Greece in Iberia and France is disappointing. Those components at 23andme can be very helpful when they exist in amounts of more than 10% at 23andme but not at AncestryDNA.

Thanks! I agree the Iberian category on Ancestry is really in need of improvement. Really confusing for many Iberian descended people that it tends to show up so low. Also I suspect that "Iberian Peninsula" is even reported in amounts of >10% for northern Italians but i would need to see more of those results. I have seen quite a few of parents & children results or also sibling results. Always intriguing to see the variation eventhough you would wish that the randomness of recombination will be limited.

ADW_1981
08-07-2017, 07:39 PM
Most of my ancestry is from SE England. No ancestry from the continent that I am aware of for several hundred years.
My only "genetic community" is SE England, but it seems my Europe West score is higher than the average in England.

Africa North < 1%
Europe West 67%
Ireland 21%
Scandinavia 5%
Great Britain 4%
Finland/Northwest Russia 2%

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 07:39 PM
I don't have the details, but ancestry's studies with their test appear to contradict what i see on this forum with British people posting their results, so I don't take ancestry's studies on Britain seriously.

I'm interested to know how strictly they have applied their criteria for establishing a person's regional origins within the UK, 4 grandparents of sample having same origin or just based on place of birth for the sample itself or even merely place of residence? I was somewhat surprised at the rather elevated Jewish averages they came up with but otherwise like i said it's rather similar to my own findings:


THE GENETIC MAKE-UP OF PEOPLE LIVING IN DIFFERENT PARTS OF THE UK
Country/Region Ethnicity above 1% (percentage within the average resident)
The UK British (36.94%), Irish (21.59%), Europe West (19.91%), Scandinavia (9.20%), Iberian Peninsula (3.05%), Italy/Greece (1.98%), Eastern Europe (1.84%), European Jewish (1.46%), Finland/Northwest Russia (1%)


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html#ixzz4p6GKcLbW






Can you post the spreadsheet link? If you know the region for each Sicilian that would help a lot for me.

It's in the OP. There's two persons from Palermo, don't have further details for the others.

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 07:45 PM
There is also the official averages :

https://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170207/ncomms14238/extref/ncomms14238-s4.xlsx

Thanks a lot! Would you happen to know more about the samples being used for Ancestry's "Iberian Peninsula" region? I have read that possibly they are (mostly) from northern Spain but i have never seen it confirmed anywhere.

Don Felipe
08-07-2017, 08:12 PM
My father is 100% Wallonian Belgian. You can add his results if you wish.

Europe: 96%
Europe West: 66%
Iberian Peninsula: 10%
Ireland: 6%
Scandinavia: 5%
Italy/Greece: 4%
Great Britain: 4%
Europe East: 1%

West Asia: 4%
Caucasus: 4%


The German result seems to be mine. You could add trace regions Italy/Greece 1%, Ireland 1%, Finland/Northwest Russia less than 1%

Thank you both, much appreciated! I am myself half Dutch and i received a 47% "Europe West" score on Ancestry, which seemed a much better fit than my score on 23&me where my Dutch side is described as a combination of practically equal parts of "British & Irish" and "French & German" plus some minor "Scandinavian". It will be interesting to see where this "Europe West" region peaks. I have seen some impressive scores for Dutch people however quite a few of them also have socalled "Great Britain" in first place.

sweuro
08-07-2017, 08:18 PM
Thanks a lot! Would you happen to know more about the samples being used for Ancestry's "Iberian Peninsula" region? I have read that possibly they are (mostly) from northern Spain but i have never seen it confirmed anywhere.
No, it spaniards from the 1000genomes project, which are from almost all regions of Spain

edit : you are asking for the "iberian component" it peaks in Basques with 100%

CelticGerman
08-07-2017, 08:38 PM
Thank you both, much appreciated! I am myself half Dutch and i received a 47% "Europe West" score on Ancestry, which seemed a much better fit than my score on 23&me where my Dutch side is described as a combination of practically equal parts of "British & Irish" and "French & German" plus some minor "Scandinavian". It will be interesting to see where this "Europe West" region peaks. I have seen some impressive scores for Dutch people however quite a few of them also have socalled "Great Britain" in first place.

My North German ancestry is interpreted as British and Scandinavian in many cases, even if there are German samples. West or South German or even average German samples are less close to North German than British or some Scandinavian. Dutch, above all North Dutch, are very similar to North German.

Dimanto
08-07-2017, 08:54 PM
In order to improve correct interpretation of AncestryDNA’s regions i have been collecting AncestryDNA results of persons with a single European background.

Follow these links for more details:

From where are the Italian estimates? The one that scores 26% West Asian in particular.

Sikeliot
08-07-2017, 10:17 PM
It's in the OP. There's two persons from Palermo, don't have further details for the others.

I have seen other Sicilian results, I can try to find them. I also saw a Greek islander from the Cyclades with 12% Caucasus, 6% Middle East, 6% Ashkenazi and the rest Italian/Greek for what it's worth.

Greeks scoring "Middle East" above 5% are likely to be islanders. I notice Sicilians tend to score more of the Middle East category and Greeks more of the Caucasus.

A Norfolk L-M20
08-08-2017, 05:01 AM
My Ancestry data is in my signature link. East Anglia, England, welcome to use.

Don Felipe
08-08-2017, 09:36 AM
Most of my ancestry is from SE England. No ancestry from the continent that I am aware of for several hundred years.
My only "genetic community" is SE England, but it seems my Europe West score is higher than the average in England.

Africa North < 1%
Europe West 67%
Ireland 21%
Scandinavia 5%
Great Britain 4%
Finland/Northwest Russia 2%


Thanks! That's indeed a high "Europe West" score however from my own survey it seems that the group averages are hiding a lot of underlying variation. Among 26 British results 14 people had "Great Britain" in first place, 4 had "Ireland" instead and 3 had "Scandinavia" as primary region. For 5 people it was "Europe West " being reported with the highest amount, ranging from 57% to 31%.



From where are the Italian estimates? The one that scores 26% West Asian in particular.

Check the spreadsheet link in the OP.


I notice Sicilians tend to score more of the Middle East category and Greeks more of the Caucasus.

Yes i have noticed the same thing.

Dimanto
08-08-2017, 01:24 PM
Thanks! That's indeed a high "Europe West" score however from my own survey it seems that the group averages are hiding a lot of underlying variation. Among 26 British results 14 people had "Great Britain" in first place, 4 had "Ireland" instead and 3 had "Scandinavia" as primary region. For 5 people it was "Europe West " being reported with the highest amount, ranging from 57% to 31%.




Check the spreadsheet link in the OP.



Yes i have noticed the same thing.

I score precisely half of that amount, that's why I'm asking.

Dimanto
08-08-2017, 05:41 PM
I have seen other Sicilian results, I can try to find them. I also saw a Greek islander from the Cyclades with 12% Caucasus, 6% Middle East, 6% Ashkenazi and the rest Italian/Greek for what it's worth.

Greeks scoring "Middle East" above 5% are likely to be islanders. I notice Sicilians tend to score more of the Middle East category and Greeks more of the Caucasus.

I got 13 West Asian (Caucasus 11% and 2 % ME) and 5% European Jewish.

greerpalmer
08-08-2017, 11:21 PM
Most of these line up nicely with the "Genetic Diversity" tab on the population descriptions. It's exciting to see them side by side to answer the "where do I get my...." questions.

Basta
08-09-2017, 05:40 AM
If it's going to help:

Europe 97%

- Europe East 76%
- Italy/Greece 13%
- Europe West 3%
- Iberian Peninsula 3%
- European Jewish 2%

West Asia 3%

- Caucasus 2%
- Middle East 1%

Don Felipe
08-10-2017, 03:11 PM
If it's going to help


It sure does, thanks! I will probably do an update of my main findings after a while, your results will be included then as well.

mwauthy
08-11-2017, 07:41 PM
It will be interesting to see the results of a Switzerland sample. Anyone have access to results from Switzerland?

Don Felipe
08-12-2017, 12:27 PM
My North German ancestry is interpreted as British and Scandinavian in many cases, even if there are German samples. West or South German or even average German samples are less close to North German than British or some Scandinavian. Dutch, above all North Dutch, are very similar to North German.

Indeed i have also noticed this on 23andme. However i do also often see that socalled East European categories are included in German results (both AncestryDNA & 23andme). This is something i rarely if ever have observed for Dutch results. Geographically it would make sense of course. Genetically i suppose both recent and quite ancient connections might be implied.

TJames
08-20-2017, 12:06 PM
I consider my results to be strange, i'm from Buckinghamshire, England and yet i seem like an out-liar for an Englishman due to the lack of British isles in me (apart from my Irish links) my Paternal grandparents surnames are James and West and my Maternal grandparents surnames being Lyman and Anderson. Maybe that could explain it as West and Lyman are both German surnames and Anderson could come from the Nordic surname Andersson (son of Anders) It's unknown why i have so much Scandi and Western European DNA as the results both seem above average for my area.

My Ancestry DNA results are:

Europe West 37%
Ireland 23%
Scandinavia 18%
Great Britain 18%
Iberian Peninsular 1%
Italy/Greece 1%
Europe East 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia <1%

Don Felipe
08-20-2017, 12:53 PM
My Ancestry DNA results are:

Thanks for sharing! Which Genetic Communities were you assigned to?

TJames
08-20-2017, 12:58 PM
I have been assigned to the following communities:

Southern English - Very Likely 95%
English in the West Midlands - Possible 20%

Cheers!

TJames

Don Felipe
08-21-2017, 10:45 PM
Separate page featuring Dutch & French results:

Dutch & French AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/dutch-french-results/)

Summary of Dutch, French and French Canadian survey findings sofar:


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/nl-stats-n10o.png


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https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/fr-stats-n6.png

stealth
08-21-2017, 11:30 PM
Here is my Ancestry DNA results Ukrainian from Ivano-Frankivsk region. Y-DNA haplogroup I2-L621

18237

mwauthy
08-22-2017, 05:15 PM
My mom is 100% Québécois back to 1650. Here are her results if you wish to add them. It still amazes me that she scored 0% Europe West.

Iberian Peninsula 32%
Great Britain 23%
Scandinavia 17%
Italy/Greece 15%
Ireland 9%
Europe East 4%

killaDNA
08-22-2017, 06:02 PM
Hey have you seen the screenshots and vid links of Spaniards' DNA results I emailed you yet? You really gotta check one of them out it is really interesting!

Don Felipe
08-22-2017, 10:47 PM
I consider my results to be strange, i'm from Buckinghamshire, England and yet i seem like an out-liar for an Englishman due to the lack of British isles in me (apart from my Irish links) my Paternal grandparents surnames are James and West and my Maternal grandparents surnames being Lyman and Anderson. Maybe that could explain it as West and Lyman are both German surnames and Anderson could come from the Nordic surname Andersson (son of Anders) It's unknown why i have so much Scandi and Western European DNA as the results both seem above average for my area.

My Ancestry DNA results are:

Europe West 37%
Ireland 23%
Scandinavia 18%
Great Britain 18%
Iberian Peninsular 1%
Italy/Greece 1%
Europe East 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia <1%

Which averages are you referring to? The ones for SE England shown in this chart (http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg), seem to fit your data reasonably well if you keep in mind that these averages always include a great deal of variation around the mean. Also going by my admittedly much more limited survey your breakdown doesn't strike me as outlying.

I have been speculating in my discussion of Dutch AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/dutch-french-results/) that the socalled "Great Britain" scores reported for the Dutch might possibly be roughly correlated with the shared Saxon origins for both the Dutch and the English. I am not particularly well read in this topic but just continuing my speculations i was wondering if perhaps these "Europe West" scores for (southern) English might possibly be caused by a greater pull towards DNA inherited from the Belgae? Apparently according to some they were of mixed Celtic and Germanic origins. See also this thread:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4383-Belgae-in-Britain


Afterall "Europe West" is also descriptive of Belgian DNA and not exclusively detecting modernday German origins. Judging from what i have seen sofar i have a hunch that "Europe West " might be peaking more so in Belgium & the Netherlands than in Germany, but obviously i will need to see more results.





My mom is 100% Québécois back to 1650. Here are her results if you wish to add them. It still amazes me that she scored 0% Europe West.

Iberian Peninsula 32%
Great Britain 23%
Scandinavia 17%
Italy/Greece 15%
Ireland 9%
Europe East 4%

Merci! From what i have seen sofar "Europe West" is not very descriptive of French DNA at all, based on just a handful of samples it might peak more so in northeastern France. If i'm not mistaken the Québécois are however mostly of western French descent, so that might explain it.

mwauthy
08-22-2017, 11:14 PM
I think because of the diversity of the various regions of France it's a bit misleading to put the whole country into the Europe West category according to the Ancestry map especially when it peaks in Belgium. Similarly, having a British Isles category on FTDNA was misleading because of the ethnic differences between Ireland, Wales, and England. The country's highest percentage should be which map it is located in.

According to your findings so far Iberian is France's largest category at 30% with six samples. The 29 samples for France from HGDP have Europe West only at 7% and Great Britain at 25%. I understand France is probably the most admixed country but Europe West is not the majority percentage in either sample group. In my opinion then France should be connected to the Iberian map or Great Britain map depending on which sample group is more legitimate.

Dubhthach
08-23-2017, 09:04 AM
I be curious if Ancestry will ever roll out their new calculator. I recall blog posts about it last year. Some of the highlights included:
1. Seperate Sardinian component
2. Spilt out of 'German' samples as 'Central European' from 'West-European' category
3. Creation of new 'British/West-European' category (Gallo-Brythonic anyone?)

mwauthy
08-23-2017, 12:28 PM
I be curious if Ancestry will ever roll out their new calculator. I recall blog posts about it last year. Some of the highlights included:
1. Seperate Sardinian component
2. Spilt out of 'German' samples as 'Central European' from 'West-European' category
3. Creation of new 'British/West-European' category (Gallo-Brythonic anyone?)

Makes sense! I would also rename the Iberian Peninsula category and call it Southwestern European, and it would include a large area of France on its map.

Hayden
08-23-2017, 02:01 PM
I be curious if Ancestry will ever roll out their new calculator. I recall blog posts about it last year. Some of the highlights included:
1. Seperate Sardinian component
2. Spilt out of 'German' samples as 'Central European' from 'West-European' category
3. Creation of new 'British/West-European' category (Gallo-Brythonic anyone?)

I would like to think the next update would come with improvement but these new 'hypothetical' categories don't give me much hope. The 'British/West-European' category sounds like it would be made just to cover up how poor of a job they do separating the continental DNA from that of the British Isles. I understand it isn't an easy task, that there is overlap, but somehow lukaszM's excel spreadsheet, using the k36 Eurogenes oracle on gedmatch does it with a high degree of accuracy for my family.

Every known part of my father's family tree leads back to a location under Ancetry's defined Western Europe area, mostly from the very center. Yet, for instance, Ancestry has my father with 27% Great Britain and only 20% Europe West. Alternatively, lukaszM's spreadsheet has my father as 95.86% Western Europe and 2.58% British Isles. The difference is exacerbated by looking in different lengths of time, thousands of years versus hundreds. I don't fault ancestry for picking up on the distant Iberian and Scandinavian elements, but just being so off on the British Isles. If I combined the British and Irish results of my father that would be 35% according to Ancestry. If my father does indeed have any it would, in all likelihood, be far closer to that 2.58%.

Nearly 3/4 of English dna comes from Western Europe. If we are doing deep ancestry thousands of years back shouldn't that portion be assigned Western Europe instead of assigning Western Europeans British Isle falsely?

Having the 'Central European' separate from 'West-European' category on the face doesn't sound like a bad idea but I am skeptical about their ability to separate the Eastern/Western European from the central. Furthermore, given that the the Central is hybrid of multiple different groups (even more so than most regions) it doesn't make sense to be a unique category, especially if ancestry continues to want to project deeper ancestry it makes far more sense (to me) to have roughly half of Germany considered western Europe, and half Eastern. I already know my family would still be assigned western Europe more so than central. We are just have too much genetic ancestry in common with the French to be separated effectively.

I really feel for the people who don't have the paper trails and put their trust solely into these genetic estimates.

Dubhthach
08-23-2017, 03:33 PM
Well one thing I would say they'd have to do either way is recalculate everyones admixture. I did my ancestryDNA back in 2015 when they had fairly small collection of Irish (born and living here) in their database. They gave me a 89% Ireland (range 77-100%). In comparison my parents results which came in couple months ago got 94% and 95% Ireland. I reckon if I re-did my test with ancestry now I'd probably get a higher level due to improvement in their reference database -- they even do TV adverts in Ireland now!

Of course one way to save my Euro's would be for Ancestry to recalculate my components based on going live with their Beta, however given their rapid growth I imagine they probably don't want to spend the computational time doing that on 4m kits. Here's blog post describing it form last year:

http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2016/03/coming-down-ethnicity-admixture-pike.html




Cameroon/Congo combined with Southeast Africa Bantu — going to be confusing to some testers of African descent. Since the Bantu peoples are thought to originate in West Africa near Cameroon and Nigeria border and then expanded east and south about 3000 years ago, we can assume Cameroon/Congo would be very similar to Bantu populations in East Africa (Mozambique, Kenya, Madagascar). [See Li et al] However this might problematic for people who want to know if their Bantu ancestors come from West Africa (Cameroon) or East Africa (Mozambique) since some admixture tests are capable of separating Southeast African Bantu from West African Bantu. Still AncestryDNA has arguably the best African breakdown of all tests with 9 clusters (6 from West Africa, one from Southeast Africa, one from South-Central Africa, and one from North Africa).
Great Britain combined with Europe West — while combining these two sub-continental categories makes sense because they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of genetic affinity to each other (see Leslie et al; Schiffells et al), scientists have been able to parse British Isles from Ireland from the rest of Western Europe (see Dr. Tim Wilson's post). So DNA testers from this region expecting more specific breakdowns will be sorely disappointed.
Native American split into North Amerindian and South Amerindian — will be good but only to the extent that the test will be better able to detect Native American DNA in customers. AncestryDNA has notoriously missed Native American admixture in many cases, even when it is detected on other admixture tests. Also it will be interesting to see the new reference samples for these categories as we still don't know what "tribes" represent the Native American reference population cluster.
Europe Central cluster addition— might prove instrumental for people with genetic ancestry from populations in Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Switzerland but it remains to be seen what final biogeographical area this cluster will cover. This cluster may prove valuable with customers whose ancestors are from crossroads areas such as the Istrian peninsula (as seen on PBS Finding Your Roots [view here] with guest Lidia Bastinach, who discovered she had both Italian and Croatian roots due to the Istrian exodus). Apparently there will also be an European East cluster, which is even better.
Sardinian cluster addition — could be worthy because Sardinian is a biogeographical isolate and reference samples from this population tend to be more homogenous and endogamous due to such events as the founder effect, genetic drift and island isolation. Therefore Sardinian should probably never be combined with Italy/Greece or Iberian Peninsula (renamed Spain/Portugal) clusters anyway. It used to be utterly tumultuous when trying to figure out what Southern European means on a subregional level or the unexplained inflated Italian percentages we often see in our results. So this Sardinian cluster should provide much-needed relief between eastern and western Mediterranean population affinities.

Alain
08-23-2017, 03:37 PM
Yes i have a question my english Not so good. I regristred by Ftdna
‎And wanted to know in what a connection my Autosmal test stands
‎I have 79% East Europe, 14 Southeast Europe 2% Finlandia and Siberia 1 % Central and Westeuropa, may dad have 89 % East Europe , 8% Finlandia and Siberia and 3% Southeast Europe?*

Don Felipe
08-23-2017, 09:52 PM
Hey have you seen the screenshots and vid links of Spaniards' DNA results I emailed you yet? You really gotta check one of them out it is really interesting!

Again thxs alot! I have adjusted my Iberian AncestryDNA page (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/). Also i have calculated new group averages.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/es-stats-n10.png




The sample size is still minimal but comparing with other datasets from HGDP and 1000 genomes (see this chart (https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/stats-es10.png)) i think they are already quite indicative. It seems quite clear now that the reason behind the “Iberian Peninsula” group averages for Spaniards being higher than for Portuguese has to with that region being designed to pick up mostly on Basque-related DNA. Still there are other noteworthy aspects as well when comparing with the Portuguese group averages:


“Africa North” amounts seem more subdued than for Portuguese even if still detectable in almost all cases.
Just like for the Portuguese socalled “Italy/Greece” is a major secondary region, however not as pronounced.
Regional scores indicative of ancient Celtic/Germanic influences are also showing up (“Ireland”, “Great Britain”, "Europe West”).



But interestingly the biggest discrepancy sofar seems to be for socalled “Great Britain”: my Spanish samplegroup obtaining an average of 3,5% while my Portuguese samplegroup scored 12% on average. Obviously this might just be a reflection of the minimal sample size. However it will be intriguing to see if Galicians will follow the Portuguese rather than the Spanish averages, given the shared Suebi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Suebi)legacy, a Germanic kingdom from 410-565, located in Galicia and northern Portugal.

Don Felipe
08-23-2017, 10:05 PM
Yes i have a question my english Not so good. I regristred by Ftdna
‎And wanted to know in what a connection my Autosmal test stands
‎I have 79% East Europe, 14 Southeast Europe 2% Finlandia and Siberia 1 % Central and Westeuropa, may dad have 89 % East Europe , 8% Finlandia and Siberia and 3% Southeast Europe?*

Since you did not test with AncestryDNA but rather with FTDNA you might get more reponse if you ask around in this section:

FTDNA (http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?136-FTDNA)

Don Felipe
08-23-2017, 10:15 PM
I think because of the diversity of the various regions of France it's a bit misleading to put the whole country into the Europe West category according to the Ancestry map especially when it peaks in Belgium. Similarly, having a British Isles category on FTDNA was misleading because of the ethnic differences between Ireland, Wales, and England. The country's highest percentage should be which map it is located in.

According to your findings so far Iberian is France's largest category at 30% with six samples. The 29 samples for France from HGDP have Europe West only at 7% and Great Britain at 25%. I understand France is probably the most admixed country but Europe West is not the majority percentage in either sample group. In my opinion then France should be connected to the Iberian map or Great Britain map depending on which sample group is more legitimate.


Makes sense! I would also rename the Iberian Peninsula category and call it Southwestern European, and it would include a large area of France on its map.

I agree with you, eventhough i do suspect that the labeling of ancestral categories by DNA testing companies will inherently always be unsatisfactory to many people. I also have a hunch that many people do not carefully read the regional descriptions provided by Ancestry. Even when not 100% accurate and indeed in need of improvement I do find them more helpful and informational than what's offered by 23andme for example.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/europe-westa.png


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/great-britaina.png


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/irelanda.png


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/scandinaviaa.png


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/iberian-peninsulaa.png


https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/italy-greecea.png

Don Felipe
08-23-2017, 10:34 PM
I be curious if Ancestry will ever roll out their new calculator. I recall blog posts about it last year. Some of the highlights included:
1. Seperate Sardinian component
2. Spilt out of 'German' samples as 'Central European' from 'West-European' category
3. Creation of new 'British/West-European' category (Gallo-Brythonic anyone?)

Yes i remember reading about that and i'm still relieved it wasn't rolled out haha. Especially the socalled Sardinian region seemed like a really bad idea...
I am quite pleased how Ancestry is now describing a person's ancestry using two timeframes, the ethnicity estimates based on origins from possibly "thousands of years ago", while the Genetic Communities are able to zoom into ancestry from "hundreds of years ago". Obviously both tools do need improvement. Firstmost in expanding sample databases i would say. I would be nice if the trace region reporting by Ancestry reaches a same level of accuracy as on 23andme, but that would not count as a priority for me.

I am wondering if in the near future both approaches might be integrated resulting in ethnicity estimates which are to be traced back to atmost 500 years ago, as most customers are expecting.





I really feel for the people who don't have the paper trails and put their trust solely into these genetic estimates.

Same here, however i do also feel that many people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to their admixture results. In my estimation they can in fact be very insightful however you do need to be aware of inherent restrictions and be able to make correct interpretations. Which requires getting acquainted with the basics of DNA testing as well as some general knowledge about European history and its ancient migrations. However I suspect many people do not bother even with reading the disclaimers provided by DNA testing companies, especially the ones by Ancestry are actually quite helpful: https://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/ethnicity

mwauthy
08-24-2017, 02:39 AM
I understand that Ancestry basically considers Iberian to be Basque. I'm just curious what other companies look for in that category because there are huge discrepancies?

Ancestry: 25% Iberian and 3% Italy/Greece

Natgeo: 3% Southern European

Ftdna: 0% Iberian and 10% Southeastern European

23andMe: 10.8% Southern European and 9% of that is Broadly. Only 0.8% is considered Iberian.

Alain
08-24-2017, 05:16 AM
Thanks

Heber
08-24-2017, 06:51 AM
Thank you very much! I intend to create a separate page for British & Irish results eventually. I will also refer to that study which was done recently based on Ancestry's customer database. There were several news papers referring to that study and also publishing very useful regional averages which seem quite in line with what i found sofar even when based on a much smaller sample size :biggrin1:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg

I have however not found anything yet on the original source of that study. Do you or anyone else perhaps have more details? I'm guessing it was just a in-house study by Ancestry which has not been published yet? I'm wondering exactly how many UK samples they used.

Great analysis. Have you created the separate British and Irish page.
My result shows one Genetic Communities cluster over Connacht mainly centered on Galway.
It would be interesting to have an analysis of results showing one Genetic Communities cluster.

Europe 100%
Ireland 95%
Low Confidence Region
Europe West3%
Italy/Greece 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%
Other Regions Tested
Great Britain 0%
Europe East 0%
Iberian Peninsula 0%
European Jewish 0%

Amerijoe
08-24-2017, 03:01 PM
Thank you very much! I intend to create a separate page for British & Irish results eventually. I will also refer to that study which was done recently based on Ancestry's customer database. There were several news papers referring to that study and also publishing very useful regional averages which seem quite in line with what i found sofar even when based on a much smaller sample size :biggrin1:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/07/28/13/36AB019600000578-3711040-image-a-7_1469709880933.jpg

I have however not found anything yet on the original source of that study. Do you or anyone else perhaps have more details? I'm guessing it was just a in-house study by Ancestry which has not been published yet? I'm wondering exactly how many UK samples they used.

Came across this map last Nov. The study was initiated by Ancestry UK. I too could not find the original study other than press releases such as below.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html

Don Felipe
08-24-2017, 03:11 PM
Thxs, this seems to be the original press release done by Ancestry, no real references so it seems the study has not yet been published:

https://www.ancestry.com/corporate/international/press-releases/DNA-of-the-nation-revealedand-were-not-as-British-as-we-think

FionnSneachta
08-24-2017, 07:36 PM
My Ancestry DNA results are in my signature. The only ancestry that I know of in my family is Irish. My Connacht genetic community is at a 95% confidence. This is also broken down to North Connacht, and Galway. These genetic communities are accurate.

18327

I can also give my aunt's results. She is 99% Irish and 1% Great Britain. Her Genetic Community is also Connacht at 95%. Her Connacht is broken down into North Connacht, Mayo & Galway, and Galway.

18328

Nqp15hhu
08-25-2017, 12:18 AM
Came across this map last Nov. The study was initiated by Ancestry UK. I too could not find the original study other than press releases such as below.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3711040/How-British-Genetic-study-reveals-Yorkshire-Anglo-Saxon-UK-East-Midlands-Scandinavian.html

48% Irish seems awfully low for Northern Ireland.

Amerijoe
08-25-2017, 03:56 AM
48% Irish seems awfully low for Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland is just a little over 4.5% more Irish than Scotland?

Dubhthach
08-25-2017, 09:25 AM
I do wonder what their sample size is and also where in Northern Ireland it was gathered. For example a reference population from Bangor might show as quite different from one from mid-Tyrone.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png/617px-Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png/617px-Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png

Brexit map as comparison!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results_%28 Northern_Ireland%29.svg/706px-United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results_%28 Northern_Ireland%29.svg.png

2017 election map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/United_Kingdom_general_election%2C_2017_%28Norther n_Ireland%29.svg/589px-United_Kingdom_general_election%2C_2017_%28Norther n_Ireland%29.svg.png

Don Felipe
08-25-2017, 09:58 AM
Great analysis. Have you created the separate British and Irish page.
My result shows one Genetic Communities cluster over Connacht mainly centered on Galway.
It would be interesting to have an analysis of results showing one Genetic Communities cluster.

Not yet, i will post the link in this thread when it's done. I will try to integrate the Genetic Community data as well, i agree it makes for a potentially very insightful research angle. However my survey is very minimal obviously and also incomplete so it's merely intended as an exploring exercise if you like ;)

Sofar for the Irish it seems that the Connacht GC is coupled with the highest Ireland scores. I am not wellread in Irish genetics/history at all, but a peak of a "Celtic" genetic component in western Ireland would not seem that surprising i suppose?

Nqp15hhu
08-25-2017, 12:00 PM
I do wonder what their sample size is and also where in Northern Ireland it was gathered. For example a reference population from Bangor might show as quite different from one from mid-Tyrone.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png/617px-Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png/617px-Map_of_predominant_national_identity_in_the_2011_c ensus_in_Northern_Ireland.png

Brexit map as comparison!
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/88/United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results_%28 Northern_Ireland%29.svg/706px-United_Kingdom_EU_referendum_2016_area_results_%28 Northern_Ireland%29.svg.png

2017 election map:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ac/United_Kingdom_general_election%2C_2017_%28Norther n_Ireland%29.svg/589px-United_Kingdom_general_election%2C_2017_%28Norther n_Ireland%29.svg.png

I have Ulster Scots dna and it showed up as Irish, so I would expect most people in NI to have no more than 30% GB Ancestry. After all the GB component seems to indicate old Anglo Saxon rather than actual GB ancestry.

I know this to be true because I am part of the Scots genetic community but have 0 GB.

Either that or I'm wrong and my Ulster Scots dna was washed out over the generations or I did not get it passed to me.

Dubhthach
08-25-2017, 12:47 PM
Well this is part of the problem with their terminology, if they had used something like 'NW Insular European' it would have avoided alot of the ambiguity, particulary as the genetic communities does seem to give people the more fine-grained geographic breakdown. In case of my auld fella his father (my grandfather) was from Belfast, so he gets a ~60% certainty on 'Ulster Irish' which isn't bad, he's got a lower certanity for 'Munster Irish' which also make sense as he had a grandmother from Cork (my great-grandmother)

Nqp15hhu
08-25-2017, 01:23 PM
Yeah, I just wonder how accurate the Genetic Communities are.

MacUalraig
08-25-2017, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I just wonder how accurate the Genetic Communities are.

Pretty good in my view, mine are both spot on (Central Sco, Yorkshire). That just about sums me up. B)
<= see here

Dubhthach
08-25-2017, 02:32 PM
Yeah, I just wonder how accurate the Genetic Communities are.

Well even there, I think there are some issues with their labeling. For example 'Munster Irish' includes basically everything south of line Galway <-> Dublin eg. Leath Cuinn/Leath Mogha border (Mason-Dixon line ;) )

I got 95% confidence for 'Munster Irish'. In comparison my parents were:

Auld Fella:

Ulster Irish: 60% Confidence
Munster Irish: 20% Confidence


Auld Wan:

Irish in Southern Ireland: 95% Confidence
Irish in Galway: 20% confidence


In case of my parents we are talking about recent test (last 4 months) and the above is quite accurate given my mother is from Clare (with south Galway further back) and my dad is mix of Belfast, Liverpool Irish, East Galway and Cork.

Lion Heart
08-29-2017, 12:25 AM
Here are my fathers results. Hes from the Nitra region of Slovakia, and so area all of his grandparents.

Europe 99%
Europe East 75%
Europe West 6%
Low Confidence Region
Iberian Peninsula 6%
Ireland 5%
Great Britain 3%
Finland/Northwest Russia 3%
Scandinavia 1%
West Asia 1%
Low Confidence Region
Middle East 1%

sktibo
08-29-2017, 01:19 AM
I have Ulster Scots dna and it showed up as Irish, so I would expect most people in NI to have no more than 30% GB Ancestry. After all the GB component seems to indicate old Anglo Saxon rather than actual GB ancestry.

I know this to be true because I am part of the Scots genetic community but have 0 GB.

Either that or I'm wrong and my Ulster Scots dna was washed out over the generations or I did not get it passed to me.

I think you're very incorrect about this and I mean that in the nicest way possible! Ancestry's GB component is a confusing intermediate between Ireland, EW, and Scandinavia - it certainly isn't a strictly Anglo-Saxon component. One of my friends who tested got 88% Great Britain and only 6% Ireland but a lot of his ancestry is Aberdeenshire and Highland Scots - about 25% of it, and neither of those groups are Anglo Saxon heavy. Even the Southern English themselves aren't mostly Anglo-Saxon genetically, as various recent studies have shown.
The other issue is that Ulster Scots aren't really genetically similar to the English, they're more genetically similar to the Irish and the Scots, and ancestry only has two categories for the British Isles so I'm not at all surprised that you didn't get any GB - some English actually don't get any either.

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2017, 01:21 AM
The reason why I'm surprised is because I see people from say Limerick coming out as 95% Irish, 2% GB and 3% European West. If people from the deepest of Ireland are picking up GB, why am I not?

I also have surnames in my family tree which are from England e.g Thompson and Smith and Black. (I have 20+ Smith's on Gedmatch and some Thompson. )

I suppose it's funny because i've got Pacific Island.

Solothurn
08-29-2017, 01:25 AM
Here are my results from Ancestry.com I am British as are all my known ancestors!

Great Britain 34%
Scandinavia 28%
Ireland 20%
Italy/Greece 6%
Finland/Northwest Russia 4%
Europe East < 1%
West Asia, Caucasus 1%

sktibo
08-29-2017, 01:27 AM
The reason why I'm surprised is because I see people from say Limerick coming out as 95% Irish, 2% GB and 3% European West. If people from the deepest of Ireland are picking up GB, why am I not?

I actually have surnames in my family tree which are from England e.g Thomson and Smith.

I suppose it's funny because i've got Pacific Island.

The short answer is because it's not a very good test for British ancestry. Look at the OP, there's a British individual who only has 3% GB and comes out as mostly Europe West. The trace amounts for Irish people seem to be anything from Iberia to Europe East. If you want a DNA test that looks at your British Isles ancestry Living DNA is your only option at this point, but currently its Irish region isn't terribly reliable.

This test doesn't consistently give Great Britain percentages in high amounts to actual British individuals.
It does seem to consistently give high GB percentages to mixed NW europeans - I think it was Jday (not 100% sure about the username) who is about half German and half Irish and he got around 94% Great Britain
When people test twice, their GB percentage appears to break into Ireland, Scandinavia, and Europe West. I made a thread with a few examples of this somewhere on this forum.

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2017, 01:28 AM
The test is probably right in that I am mostly Irish.. I just question the amount of Irish.

I haven't done the LivingDNA test because I have read that it didn't process Irish results in an effective way i.e have people from Dublin getting mostly SE England ancestry.

The Ancestry site gave the impression that it seperated Ireland and GB effectively.

sktibo
08-29-2017, 01:33 AM
The test is probably right in that I am mostly Irish.. I just question the amount of Irish.

I haven't done the LivingDNA test because I have read that it didn't process Irish results in an effective way i.e have people from Dublin getting mostly SE England ancestry.

The Ancestry site gave the impression that it seperated Ireland and GB effectively.

I'm sure it did give that impression, it also gives the impression that it's DNA breakdown goes back thousands of years, and the "studies" released by Ancestry DNA seem to consistently conflict with data collected from people such as the OP of this thread here. What I interpret this to mean is that you can't trust what Ancestry says about their DNA test. When I first came to this forum I also believed that Ancestry DNA could accurately separate the two, and that Great Britain meant "Anglo-Saxon". Fortunately I came across various knowledgeable forumites here and several studies on the British Isles, primarily the People of the British Isles project which set me straight.

I do like Ancestry's test. I think it's better than several alternatives such as FTDNA's MyOrigins and the MyHeritage test. However, I don't think it is as good as Living DNA (an exception to this one is with Irish testers, AncestryDNA does have a good Irish reference population) and it's certainly nowhere near as good as 23andme in my opinion

If I were you I would test with Living DNA because eventually they will release their Irish DNA project and that will be better than anything else British Isles wise once it's released

mwauthy
08-29-2017, 12:24 PM
I'm sure it did give that impression, it also gives the impression that it's DNA breakdown goes back thousands of years, and the "studies" released by Ancestry DNA seem to consistently conflict with data collected from people such as the OP of this thread here. What I interpret this to mean is that you can't trust what Ancestry says about their DNA test. When I first came to this forum I also believed that Ancestry DNA could accurately separate the two, and that Great Britain meant "Anglo-Saxon". Fortunately I came across various knowledgeable forumites here and several studies on the British Isles, primarily the People of the British Isles project which set me straight.

I do like Ancestry's test. I think it's better than several alternatives such as FTDNA's MyOrigins and the MyHeritage test. However, I don't think it is as good as Living DNA (an exception to this one is with Irish testers, AncestryDNA does have a good Irish reference population) and it's certainly nowhere near as good as 23andme in my opinion

If I were you I would test with Living DNA because eventually they will release their Irish DNA project and that will be better than anything else British Isles wise once it's released
I agree that the Great Britain category cannot be simplified to simply Anglo-Saxon. I think there is a large Frisian aspect to it and that is why Dutch people often get large GB scores. Furthermore, I think this Frisian component is mixed with Welsh or ancient Briton in addition to Scandinavian or Vikings and other Danish migrations. Europe West scores are more of a result of the Frankish and Belgae influences in GB.

sktibo
08-29-2017, 06:36 PM
I agree that the Great Britain category cannot be simplified to simply Anglo-Saxon. I think there is a large Frisian aspect to it and that is why Dutch people often get large GB scores. Furthermore, I think this Frisian component is mixed with Welsh or ancient Briton in addition to Scandinavian or Vikings and other Danish migrations. Europe West scores are more of a result of the Frankish and Belgae influences in GB.

In the OP examples only one Dutch tester had more GB than EW.. at 40% GB to 33% EW. The others were overwhelmingly Europe West with very little Great Britain. A few other Dutch DNA tests from Ancestry I've seen were also overwhelmingly Europe West. I do think that it's not unusual for them to get Britain as a primary component but I also am not sure that Frisian is the common factor here - might be in some cases though:
We have seen from a tester who is entirely Kentish in origin that he got 94% Great Britain, he posted here on this forum with the username Mattychatty. We also saw that Norfolk got mostly Great Britain with Ancestry. This indicates that Ancestry's Great Britain category is primarily Southern / South Eastern English, who are probably the most mixed of all the English genetic groups, and would explain why the Great Britain category gets thrown around so wildly and also why people of mixed descent get such high Great Britain scores. Like the southern English themselves, this category isn't attributed to one thing: it has ancient Briton / "Celtic", it has some Anglo-Saxon, it has some Low Countries / Frisian, it has Scandinavian, it has mainland European. The southern English are actually a poor choice for a DNA reference population in my opinion because they are so mixed compared to other groups, and as we can see from the Great Britain samples collected by the OP here, this category is anything but consistent. I would love to see a DNA test in the future that attempts to exclude the more mixed populations, only keeping reference populations such as Ireland, Scandinavia, Iberia, Greece, Finland, and Lithuania / Estonia or whichever the most "pure" Eastern European population(s) are.
Interestingly, we also see in Living DNA that their Southeast English category has this very same problem: People get tons of it while not having any ancestry from that region, and it is often confused with mainland European ancestry.

mwauthy
08-29-2017, 08:08 PM
You are right about the Dutch scores. However, the highest percentages for Europe West do come from Belgium hence why I think there is a large Frankish and Belgae component to it.

After looking at the chart on page 1 it appears that Great Britain is still the majority percentage for people living in Great Britain at 43% for those 26 samples. Then Ireland at 20.7%. Then Europe West at 18.8% and Scandinavia at 12.3%. So people with English ancestry on these forums that get a majority of Europe West or Scandinavian tend to be more outliers than representative of overall averages.

Nqp15hhu
08-29-2017, 08:23 PM
43% is low for a supposed native.

sktibo
08-29-2017, 08:43 PM
You are right about the Dutch scores. However, the highest percentages for Europe West do come from Belgium hence why I think there is a large Frankish and Belgae component to it.

After looking at the chart on page 1 it appears that Great Britain is still the majority percentage for people living in Great Britain at 43% for those 26 samples. Then Ireland at 20.7%. Then Europe West at 18.8% and Scandinavia at 12.3%. So people with English ancestry on these forums that get a majority of Europe West or Scandinavian tend to be more outliers than representative of overall averages.

Well, I don't think that's true. Ancestry claims they did these studies on people from these areas, but we haven't heard anything from the test subjects and they didn't share a write up on how they conducted their experiment. Then when we see people's results here on anthrogenica or on facebook groups from people who share their known ancestry with us and it is wildly different than what the numbers given to us by ancestry show, that means one of these sources is off or altered - and I suspect it is the Ancestry DNA study which is incorrect or altered because they would have a reason to do so (trying to show that their test is consistent in these categories), people sharing their DNA results usually don't.

The world of commercial DNA testing is a new one, and there aren't regulations in place yet which affect what these companies are allowed to claim or say. Right now there are absolutely ridiculous claims made by some of them, such as "your ethnicity estimate goes back thousands of years" and I think it is very unwise to take their word on what they claim their tests do. The bottom line is that we have a lot of people who have shared their known ancestral backgrounds and their DNA test results, and they are consistently wildly different than what Ancestry DNA claims these results will come out as, and therefore we can't take these "studies" given by this company too seriously.

Don Felipe's collection of results will have far greater value than anything Ancestry will publish because he is doing it out of interest and doesn't work for the company. A big thanks to him for working on this project and I hope it will reduce the confusion to testers who use Ancestry DNA

Amerijoe
08-29-2017, 09:57 PM
43% is low for a supposed native.

My limited paper trail on my maternal side breaks down at present, Ireland and North Ireland about 25%, Scotland 72% and England 3%.

Ancestry results as follows.

18412. 18413

Looking at the ethnicity makeup reveals the close affinity of each. Hopefully future refinement will resolve this issue.

When I feel the Isles are not doing it for me and want to be more continental. I check my wonder ingredients with MDLP 23b and there I am.

1 French_ + Frisian_ + German-Volga_ + Swede_Saami_ @ 1.433296

You'll have to excuse me, off to Gedmatch, I feel another fantasy trip coming on. :)

mwauthy
08-30-2017, 12:53 AM
I think the three biggest misconceptions I had regarding ethnicity estimates when I first started researching were: 1. We have ancestors from the regions listed as opposed to we share similar genes with the people from the regions listed. 2. Modern nationalistic boundaries correlate to ancient tribal movements. 3. People within a region are pretty homogenous and should have very high percentages for the region they live in. Once I got over these three preconceived misconceptions the ethnicity estimates from Ancestry made more sense to me and were more informative than other testing companies. The work Don Felipe has done has been very helpful and informative. Thanks!

kikkk
08-31-2017, 11:45 AM
Hello!
I know that I'm OT but maybe I could finally get some help here.
For some reason I was unable to order an ancestryDNA kit from their site.
I entered all my informations and they were confirmed by a green comma but when I click on review it keeps stuck there. (I encountred the same problem on other pc's, tablets and phones as well as on the ancestry apk)
My question is: could I buy an ancestryDNA kit from third parties like Amazon or Ebay.
Best regards

Don Felipe
08-31-2017, 11:58 AM
I think the three biggest misconceptions I had regarding ethnicity estimates when I first started researching were: 1. We have ancestors from the regions listed as opposed to we share similar genes with the people from the regions listed. 2. Modern nationalistic boundaries correlate to ancient tribal movements. 3. People within a region are pretty homogenous and should have very high percentages for the region they live in. Once I got over these three preconceived misconceptions the ethnicity estimates from Ancestry made more sense to me and were more informative than other testing companies.

Well said! It worked exactly the same way for me. I think it's natural to have highset expectations in the beginning. Getting more familiar with the realities and limitations of DNA testing will often be a sobering experience. However instead of hasty dismissal i would always argue for correct interpretation and finding informational value which i believe can still be extracted when applying a suitable framework.




I agree that the Great Britain category cannot be simplified to simply Anglo-Saxon. I think there is a large Frisian aspect to it and that is why Dutch people often get large GB scores. Furthermore, I think this Frisian component is mixed with Welsh or ancient Briton in addition to Scandinavian or Vikings and other Danish migrations. Europe West scores are more of a result of the Frankish and Belgae influences in GB.

Of course at this stage everything is speculation (which i personally still find engaging and useful to place one's ancestry in a wider timeframe). But i do also suspect that the Europe West scores for the Dutch & Belgians might strongly correspond with Frankish influences. Great Britain scores for the Dutch i think are likely to correspond strongly firstmost with Saxon origins, but possibly also some Frisian influences are reflected. Eventhough i would think that socalled Scandinavia will be more strongly associated with Frisian ancestry. More Dutch samples from allover the country would be needed to establish any patterns. I'm curious to see if "Scandinavia" also turns up in greater amounts in Belgium or especially among the Flemish as i have read that in ancient times the Frisians were also located along the Schelde river estuary.

I do believe that "Great Britain" (just as all the other regions) will have different implications according to local context. For example for the western French and French Canadians obviously also other (pre)historical migrations will be reflected. It will be interesting to see if the Danes will also score high amounts of "Great Britain". One of the most surprising observations i made during my survey was to also see considerable amounts of "Great Britain" being reported for the Portuguese. On average about 12% but a maximum score among 25 samples sofar being 27% while several others also scored above 20% already. Even when Portugal is not even mentioned on ancestry's website as a possible location:

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/great-britain.png

This finding might possibly reflect the minor yet still enduring impact of Germanic migrations into the Iberian Peninsusla.I found it interesting though that sofar my Spanish samplegroup is obtaining a much lower average of 3,5% for Great Britain. Obviously this might just be a result of the minimal sample size. However it will be intriguing to see if Galicians will follow the Portuguese rather than the Spanish averages, given the shared Suebi legacy, a Germanic kingdom from 410-565, located in Galicia and northern Portugal.

MacUalraig
08-31-2017, 12:20 PM
Hello!
I know that I'm OT but maybe I could finally get some help here.
For some reason I was unable to order an ancestryDNA kit from their site.
I entered all my informations and they were confirmed by a green comma but when I click on review it keeps stuck there. (I encountred the same problem on other pc's, tablets and phones as well as on the ancestry apk)
My question is: could I buy an ancestryDNA kit from third parties like Amazon or Ebay.
Best regards

Do you live in a country they sell the DNA kit in? Tunisia isn't listed...

https://support.ancestry.co.uk/s/article/ka215000000MVYdAAO/AncestryDNA-Availability-3904

mwauthy
08-31-2017, 12:23 PM
Well said! It worked exactly the same way for me. I think it's natural to have highset expectations in the beginning. Getting more familiar with the realities and limitations of DNA testing will often be a sobering experience. However instead of hasty dismissal i would always argue for correct interpretation and finding informational value which i believe can still be extracted when applying a suitable framework.





Of course at this stage everything is speculation (which i personally still find engaging and useful to place one's ancestry in a wider timeframe). But i do also suspect that the Europe West scores for the Dutch & Belgians might strongly correspond with Frankish influences. Great Britain scores for the Dutch i think are likely to correspond strongly firstmost with Saxon origins, but possibly also some Frisian influences are reflected. Eventhough i would think that socalled Scandinavia will be more strongly associated with Frisian ancestry. More Dutch samples from allover the country would be needed to establish any patterns. I'm curious to see if "Scandinavia" also turns up in greater amounts in Belgium or especially among the Flemish as i have read that in ancient times the Frisians were also located along the Schelde river estuary.

I do believe that "Great Britain" (just as all the other regions) will have different implications according to local context. For example for the western French and French Canadians obviously also other (pre)historical migrations will be reflected. It will be interesting to see if the Danes will also score high amounts of "Great Britain". One of the most surprising observations i made during my survey was to also see considerable amounts of "Great Britain" being reported for the Portuguese. On average about 12% but a maximum score among 25 samples sofar being 27% while several others also scored above 20% already. Even when Portugal is not even mentioned on ancestry's website as a possible location:

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/great-britain.png

This finding might possibly reflect the minor yet still enduring impact of Germanic migrations into the Iberian Peninsusla.I found it interesting though that sofar my Spanish samplegroup is obtaining a much lower average of 3,5% for Great Britain. Obviously this might just be a result of the minimal sample size. However it will be intriguing to see if Galicians will follow the Portuguese rather than the Spanish averages, given the shared Suebi legacy, a Germanic kingdom from 410-565, located in Galicia and northern Portugal.
The high Great Britain scores in Portugal are interesting indeed. I wonder where the samples were located? If they were coastal samples it might mean there was a lot of travel and trade along Atlantic coastlines in ancient times.

I noticed French Canadians get large Great Britain scores as well and historically they are from Atlantic western and northern France.

There is a theory called Vasconic substratum theory that includes all of these areas when you look at a map. Problem is though that most scientists have discounted the theory and second it doesn't correlate at all to the probable Germanic association with the Great Britain category.

It is also interesting that the English language is most similar to ancient Frisian.

Don Felipe
08-31-2017, 01:00 PM
Well, I don't think that's true. Ancestry claims they did these studies on people from these areas, but we haven't heard anything from the test subjects and they didn't share a write up on how they conducted their experiment. Then when we see people's results here on anthrogenica or on facebook groups from people who share their known ancestry with us and it is wildly different than what the numbers given to us by ancestry show, that means one of these sources is off or altered - and I suspect it is the Ancestry DNA study which is incorrect or altered because they would have a reason to do so (trying to show that their test is consistent in these categories), people sharing their DNA results usually don't.

The world of commercial DNA testing is a new one, and there aren't regulations in place yet which affect what these companies are allowed to claim or say. Right now there are absolutely ridiculous claims made by some of them, such as "your ethnicity estimate goes back thousands of years" and I think it is very unwise to take their word on what they claim their tests do. The bottom line is that we have a lot of people who have shared their known ancestral backgrounds and their DNA test results, and they are consistently wildly different than what Ancestry DNA claims these results will come out as, and therefore we can't take these "studies" given by this company too seriously.

Don Felipe's collection of results will have far greater value than anything Ancestry will publish because he is doing it out of interest and doesn't work for the company. A big thanks to him for working on this project and I hope it will reduce the confusion to testers who use Ancestry DNA


Thank you, much appreciated! I'm pretty sure i'm not able to live up to such expectations though :biggrin1: I do agree that there are several inconsistencies in Ancestry's reporting sofar. However in comparison with the minimal (and sometimes misleading) information provided by 23andme (the only other company i tested with) i find that Ancestry does atleast genuinely attempt to improve proper interpretation and understanding among their clients. It's far more detailed than anything i have seen on 23andme. I'm talking about pages such as these:


AncestryDNA Ethnicity Estimate Help and Tips (https://www.ancestry.com/cs/dna-help/ethnicity)



Also on their blog they often publish insighful articles, this author seems to focus mostly on Irish ancestry:


Mike Mulligan (https://blogs.ancestry.com/ancestry/author/mmulligan/)



Their latest study published in Nature wasn't bad either i would say ;).


Post-colonial pop. structure of N America. Finally a study I can literally relate to (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?9693-Post-colonial-pop-structure-of-N-America-Finally-a-study-I-can-literally-relate-to)



Personally i would love if they continue this type of insightful research (in particular correlating Genetic Communities with Ethnicity Estimates). Their commercial background indeed justifies having some reservations however it also equips them with an unbeatable amount of Big Data, given their HUGE customer database! The thing i mostly have an issue with is when they do not provide fully complete statistics for their findings. Also i wish they would expand their field of interest beyond a merely USA-centric perspective. Although i do understand that their research priorities will have to be in line with the majority of their customerbase. Still given that they have access to all this data from millions of customers, including USA- or UK based migrants from all over the world, i would expect it really doesn't take that much of an effort to also research less common ancestral origins. Especially as it seems that for many migrant groups, despite being minorities, already representative sample sizes can be obtained.






This indicates that Ancestry's Great Britain category is primarily Southern / South Eastern English, who are probably the most mixed of all the English genetic groups, and would explain why the Great Britain category gets thrown around so wildly and also why people of mixed descent get such high Great Britain scores. Like the southern English themselves, this category isn't attributed to one thing: it has ancient Briton / "Celtic", it has some Anglo-Saxon, it has some Low Countries / Frisian, it has Scandinavian, it has mainland European. The southern English are actually a poor choice for a DNA reference population in my opinion because they are so mixed compared to other groups, and as we can see from the Great Britain samples collected by the OP here, this category is anything but consistent. I would love to see a DNA test in the future that attempts to exclude the more mixed populations, only keeping reference populations such as Ireland, Scandinavia, Iberia, Greece, Finland, and Lithuania / Estonia or whichever the most "pure" Eastern European population(s) are.


Good point! I totally agree that given their ethnogenesis selecting the southern English for a major ancestral category might not have been a wise decision...I wonder though which reference populations would qualify when wanting to describe West European DNA? Which West European populations have relatively been the most isolated and least affected by historical migrations?

I agree on the Irish, from what i have seen sofar i find that Ancestry does do a very good job at detecting Irish origins for people of confirmed Irish descent, while Irish scores reported for other people usually make sense when you take into consideration more ancient Celtic origins. Finland and Europe East are impressively predictive as well and seem to be nearly mutually exclusive with West European categories. Scandinavia also seems reasonably predictive but i feel it can be improved still. I believe that Iberia is currently mislabeled because it is also found in primary amounts for the French while it is not fully covering Portuguese origins. Italy/Greece region is doing alright for the Italians and Greeks themselves (even when the additional West Asian scores might seem confusing at first), but it's too widespread across southern Europe and should be made more specific.

jeanL
09-01-2017, 04:32 AM
FWIW: Both are Western Cubans (From Havana); both have substantial Canary Islander ancestry.

18438

This one has confirmed 7/16 GG-Grandparents born in the Canary Islands (Tenerife/Gran Canaria).

18439

Trixster
09-01-2017, 04:41 AM
FWIW: Both are Western Cubans (From Havana); both have substantial Canary Islander ancestry.

18438

This one has confirmed 7/16 GG-Grandparents born in the Canary Islands (Tenerife/Gran Canaria).

18439
Does the Canarian show up as Iberian as opposed to North Africa?

Don Felipe
09-01-2017, 08:10 AM
FWIW: Both are Western Cubans (From Havana); both have substantial Canary Islander ancestry.

Thanks for sharing! Especially for the first one it seems likely the 9% Africa North will be correlated with their Canarian ancestry. Eventhough sofar i have only seen 10 Spanish results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/) i find it striking how Hispanic Caribbeans tend to score higher Africa North on average. I have surveyed far more Hispanic Caribbean AncestryDNA results, especially Puerto Rican ones (n=137) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=49) & Dominicans (n=142) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=70) but also a few Cuban ones (n=7) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=1069316456) and their group averages for Africa North are resp. 3%, 2,5% and 4,3%. For my Spanish sample group it's 1,7%, ranging inbetween 0% & 6%. However for the Portuguese it is considerably higher: 5,6% (min.2%-max.9%).

From all those results the highest Africa North score i have seen was 10% for a Puerto Rican, so 9% is really impressive!

Do any of them also happen to have Galician family ties?

jeanL
09-01-2017, 11:45 AM
Thanks for sharing! Especially for the first one it seems likely the 9% Africa North will be correlated with their Canarian ancestry. Eventhough sofar i have only seen 10 Spanish results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/) i find it striking how Hispanic Caribbeans tend to score higher Africa North on average. I have surveyed far more Hispanic Caribbean AncestryDNA results, especially Puerto Rican ones (n=137) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=49) & Dominicans (n=142) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=70) but also a few Cuban ones (n=7) (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=1069316456) and their group averages for Africa North are resp. 3%, 2,5% and 4,3%. For my Spanish sample group it's 1,7%, ranging inbetween 0% & 6%. However for the Portuguese it is considerably higher: 5,6% (min.2%-max.9%).

From all those results the highest Africa North score i have seen was 10% for a Puerto Rican, so 9% is really impressive!

Do any of them also happen to have Galician family ties?

I think the first one has deep roots in Western Cuba; although one of the lastname does have an origin from Asturias; but the connection to the Spanish ancestor has not been made yet. Keep in mind that a lot of the early Iberian colonizers of Cuba came from Extremadura; therefore their genetic profile likely reflects this. The Galician migration is far more recent; that's not to say that there were not any Galicians in the early migrations; but they were rarer.

jeanL
09-01-2017, 04:53 PM
I see that within the 7 Cubans you managed to capture 2 Afro-Cubans at least; and one possibly mixed Cuban. That's quite interesting since most DNA results I see from Cubans are from the people who are overwhelmingly European. This guy/girl:

oshun67 10.1%(Senegal) 7.2%(Mali) 1.4%(Ghana/IvC) 46.4%(Benin/Togo) 4.3%(Nigeria) 26.1%(Camr./Congo) 2.9%(SE Bantu) 1.4%(Pygmy/San) 0.0% (N.African) 69%(Total African) 0% (Total N.Afr)

Do you know where in Cuba his/her family hails from? Also what is the other 31% of his/her ancestry.

The relative percentage of Camr/Congo suggest to me some Congo ancestry; however the Nigerian is low; so I don't know about Yoruba ancestry.

Same thing for this one:

Ali Salsu 8.8%(Senegal) 15.8%(Mali) 1.8%(Ghana/IvC) 17.5%(Benin/Togo) 43.9%(Nigeria) 1.8%(Camr./Congo) 1.8%(SE Bantu) 5.3%(Pygmy/San) 3.5% (N.African) 57%(Total African) 2% (Total N.Afr) 6.0% Native American

Where in Cuba is his/her ancestry and also what is the other 37% of his/her ancestry.

This person most definitely has Yoruba ancestry though!
Also how do you handle Ancestry's "<1% components"?

Interesting that the 5 "nonAfroCuban" or (<50% African) all have North African as their greatest relative African component. The two Cubans I posted are 90% and 62.5% North African relative respectively.

catman44
09-02-2017, 04:46 AM
Here are my results

For some reason on this calculator I come out as more Italy/Greece than Iberia

https://i.imgur.com/JJHkPoz.jpg

catman44
09-02-2017, 12:03 PM
anyone care to comment on my results ? :)

mwauthy
09-02-2017, 04:21 PM
Where are you from? Your results look like you could be from North/Central France.

catman44
09-02-2017, 04:42 PM
i'm half brit/irish, half spanish

mwauthy
09-02-2017, 04:48 PM
i'm half brit/irish, half spanish

Makes sense then! Spanish people do get high Italy/Greece scores sometimes. I guess it depends on the location in Spain.

Don Felipe
09-02-2017, 07:59 PM
The high Great Britain scores in Portugal are interesting indeed. I wonder where the samples were located? If they were coastal samples it might mean there was a lot of travel and trade along Atlantic coastlines in ancient times.


Two of them are from the Azores islands but two others are from Lisbon. I agree that socalled "Great Britain" seems to be an Atlantic component, but local context will determine interpretation i suppose.





Here are my results

For some reason on this calculator I come out as more Italy/Greece than Iberia

It's important not to take the country name labeling too literally. It is actually quite common for Spaniards and even more so for Portuguese to score high socalled "Italy/Greece" scores. In absence of any known family ties with either Italy or Greece it's best to consider it as some ancient ancestral component which is widely shared among Mediterranean populations. What part of Spain is your family from? It seems that "Iberian Peninsula" is especially prevalent among people of northern Spanish descent. For more details read:

Portuguese & Spanish AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/)

catman44
09-03-2017, 02:37 PM
my paternal grandfather was from Toledo mountains area, paternal grandmother the countryside around Valladolid

Sikeliot
09-03-2017, 02:45 PM
It's important not to take the country name labeling too literally. It is actually quite common for Spaniards and even more so for Portuguese to score high socalled "Italy/Greece" scores. In absence of any known family ties with either Italy or Greece it's best to consider it as some ancient ancestral component which is widely shared among Mediterranean populations. What part of Spain is your family from? It seems that "Iberian Peninsula" is especially prevalent among people of northern Spanish descent. For more details read:

Portuguese & Spanish AncestryDNA results (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/)

Italy/Greece is scored everywhere from Iberia all the way to the Middle East. It is widespread.

Sikeliot
09-05-2017, 10:46 PM
I'd be interested to see how different parts of Ireland compare.

Jessie
09-06-2017, 02:27 AM
I'd be interested to see how different parts of Ireland compare.

I've got some that I can add later on from different areas from some Irish celebrities.

Sikeliot
09-06-2017, 02:32 AM
I've got some that I can add later on from different areas from some Irish celebrities.

Yes please. I would be interested to see.

Jessie
09-06-2017, 10:59 AM
Don Felipe can also add these to his Irish samples if he wishes.

Ryan Turbidy is an Irish TV presenter. He is from Dublin and here is his Ancestry DNA result.

http://i63.tinypic.com/2lx9nhe.png

Don Felipe
09-06-2017, 11:07 AM
Thanks! If anyone has any Welsh, Cornish or Scottish results to share i would also be much obliged!

Jessie
09-06-2017, 11:32 AM
Eamon Dunphy was born in Dublin but his genetic community is placed in Kerry so he could be similar to me in that I was born and lived in Dublin but parents were from the country.

http://i65.tinypic.com/211o11f.png

http://i67.tinypic.com/25zklyc.png

Jessie
09-06-2017, 11:44 AM
Michael Healy-Rae is from Cork but his genetic community is more towards Kerry.

http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/3294585/original?width=630&version=3294585

http://i63.tinypic.com/1c5mp.png

Jessie
09-06-2017, 11:58 AM
Jason Byrne from Dublin. I remember he had a couple of genetic communities - one in the north and one stretching to Dublin. This program is no longer available online so I can't get a capture of it. This is his dna breakdown.

http://i63.tinypic.com/313qh34.png

Maura Derrane is from Galway and in fact I think she is from the Gaeltacht. Her genetic community was also in Galway.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2nth0l4.png

Don Felipe
09-06-2017, 12:08 PM
Michael Healy-Rae is from Cork but his genetic community is more towards Kerry.

Very interesting! The first 100% Irish result i have seen, Kerry is in the southwest right?
Also nice to see the greater variation in the Dublin results, which would make sense i suppose, even some cosmopolitan traceregions.

Jessie
09-06-2017, 12:23 PM
Last one is Jacksepticeye real name Sean McLoughlin who is from the midwest of Ireland. He is from Athlone which is between Co Westmeath and Co Roscommon.

His genetic communities.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2i70k7.png

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yx2id0.png

In case the picture capture isn't large enough he is 62% Ireland, 34% Great Britain and 4% Iberian Peninsula.

This Irishman Max Byrne also got 100% Ireland

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yujf2a.png

Jessie
09-06-2017, 12:26 PM
Very interesting! The first 100% Irish result i have seen, Kerry is in the southwest right?
Also nice to see the greater variation in the Dublin results, which would make sense i suppose, even some cosmopolitan traceregions.

Michael Healy-Rae is actually from Cork but his genetic community is in Kerry.

Both Kerry and Cork are in the southwest.

http://www.irishabroad.com/Travel/Ireland/Images/corkkerrymap.gif

L1983
09-06-2017, 12:27 PM
Most of my ancestry is from SE England. No ancestry from the continent that I am aware of for several hundred years.
My only "genetic community" is SE England, but it seems my Europe West score is higher than the average in England.

Africa North < 1%
Europe West 67%
Ireland 21%
Scandinavia 5%
Great Britain 4%
Finland/Northwest Russia 2%

That's the only genetic community my mother and I get also. I must not have inherited much from my great great grandmother from Cork (dad's side). He's SE England + Cork genetic community.

Don Felipe
09-06-2017, 01:17 PM
Last one is Jacksepticeye real name Sean McLoughlin who is from the midwest of Ireland. He is from Athlone which is between Co Westmeath and Co Roscommon.

His genetic communities.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2i70k7.png


In case the picture capture isn't large enough he is 62% Ireland, 34% Great Britain and 4% Iberian Peninsula.


Thxs again! That Jack character has very intriguing results. His GC's being Ulster & Southern English. That last GC being perfectly in line with his sofar exceptionally high (for the Irish) Great Britain score! I wonder how common that would be for Irishmen to get assigned to an English GC. I just watched his youtube video (might want to turn down the volume lol). He makes valid points about the Irish and the British generally being genetically similar and also the increased possibility of intermarriage in the last 4 centuries or so. Still given the English GC i wonder if his breakdown would not be reflecting something much more recent (from within the last 4 generations or so). He does mention he is not very well aware of his family origins beyond his grandparents. If so i would say Ancestry did a pretty decent job in his case. Also it would be indicative of how strongly "Great Britain" may correlate with the GC Southern English.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdL1FN3_YMo

Sikeliot
09-06-2017, 01:56 PM
The guy with the high British might be from an area that received a lot of settlement from Britain during colonization. To score that high and not know implies it isn't too recent.

Interesting Kerry result was 100% Irish, maybe this corresponds to the outlying Munster cluster on that one PCA. Galway result is close but shows traces of mixture.

CillKenny
09-06-2017, 06:51 PM
On the Southern English connection here are my results. What is interesting is that GB is very low in the distant past with Western Europe being the second category. Then in genetic communities the Southern English one shows up as possible. Family background is Wicklow/Wexford and Tipperary/Killkenny. Number of Norman surnames in the past 4 to 5 generations.

Mike Mulligan's talk highlights the position of Leinster and East Ulster as being homogenous [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fhx1JgGgw_k&feature=youtu.be]. There is something left to be explained here that makes these two areas look more homogenous than the rest of Ireland.



Europe 100%

Ireland 92%
Europe West 5%


Low Confidence Region
Great Britain 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%

Genetic Communities

Irish in Southern Ireland (Leinster and N Munster) - Connection Very Likely (Confidence 95%)
Southern English - Connection: Possible (Confidence 20%)

Nqp15hhu
09-06-2017, 08:35 PM
Last one is Jacksepticeye real name Sean McLoughlin who is from the midwest of Ireland. He is from Athlone which is between Co Westmeath and Co Roscommon.

His genetic communities.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2i70k7.png

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yx2id0.png

In case the picture capture isn't large enough he is 62% Ireland, 34% Great Britain and 4% Iberian Peninsula.

This Irishman Max Byrne also got 100% Ireland

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yujf2a.png

I watched Sean McLoughlin, I am thinking he has a GB grandparent.

Nqp15hhu
09-06-2017, 08:37 PM
The guy with the high British might be from an area that received a lot of settlement from Britain during colonization. To score that high and not know implies it isn't too recent.

Interesting Kerry result was 100% Irish, maybe this corresponds to the outlying Munster cluster on that one PCA. Galway result is close but shows traces of mixture.

34% is very high for ancestry that isn't recent.

Don Felipe
09-06-2017, 08:54 PM
On the Southern English connection here are my results. What is interesting is that GB is very low in the distant past with Western Europe being the second category. Then in genetic communities the Southern English one shows up as possible. Family background is Wicklow/Wexford and Tipperary/Killkenny. Number of Norman surnames in the past 4 to 5 generations.
Genetic Communities

Irish in Southern Ireland (Leinster and N Munster) - Connection Very Likely (Confidence 95%)
Southern English - Connection: Possible (Confidence 20%)

Very interesting, thanks for sharing (and also that video!) , how common would those Norman surnames be for Ireland?
The confidence level for your S. English GC does seem rather low, it makes me wonder how high it was for Jacksepticeye. How many individual DNA matches are reported for you under this GC?

CillKenny
09-06-2017, 09:57 PM
Less than 20 matches in the Southern English group. Most distant.

Norman names are actually common in Ireland [http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irename2.htm]

In my family I have in terms of generations removed Morrissey, Cantwell, Wafer, Walsh (x2 one from mother and father), Dillon, Caulfield(?) and I think one Brett.

The names can be misleading as people adopted names of landlords to keep land or were actually forced to adopt non Gaelic names on pain of loss of property and other rights. My surname is Kenny. We are from the Wicklow/Wexford border back to at least the 1600s. The main group of Kennys are from Connacht. There were also settlers called Kenny in Wexford who arrived from Somerset. My ydna shows me not to be related to the Connacht Kennys but rather to be from the same group as the Gaelic O'Byrnes, O'Tooles etc. It could be that to hold onto land in Wexford owned by the English Kennys one of my distant ancestors adopted their name. Walsh signifies someone from Wales so there is only a geographic link in that name. So surnames in Ireland carry only a noisy signal.

Jessie
09-07-2017, 01:30 AM
I watched Sean McLoughlin, I am thinking he has a GB grandparent.

You would think he would mention if he had a GB grandparent. In his video he explains it by the British involvment in Ireland and doesn't mention anything about a grandparent. Do you know for sure if he has a GB grandparent? I mean English people can get 45%+ Ireland without any Irish connections.

Sikeliot
09-07-2017, 02:09 AM
You would think he would mention if he had a GB grandparent. In his video he explains it by the British involvment in Ireland and doesn't mention anything about a grandparent. Do you know for sure if he has a GB grandparent? I mean English people can get 45%+ Ireland without any Irish connections.

He said in the video all of his grandparents are Irish. I personally think he does not have any recent/known British ancestry but that part of Ireland might have been affected by British settlement.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:11 AM
You would think he would mention if he had a GB grandparent. In his video he explains it by the British involvment in Ireland and doesn't mention anything about a grandparent. Do you know for sure if he has a GB grandparent? I mean English people can get 45%+ Ireland without any Irish connections.

Well, I don't know.. But if it picked it up in the Genetic Community, then one can assume it's accurate.

It's gotta be close in generations though as 34% would cover a large volume of his relatives.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:12 AM
He said in the video all of his grandparents are Irish. I personally think he does not have any recent/known British ancestry but that part of Ireland might have been affected by British settlement.

He is from Athlone though. I don't think Athlone was a Plantation area.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:17 AM
Less than 20 matches in the Southern English group. Most distant.

Norman names are actually common in Ireland [http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~irlkik/ihm/irename2.htm]

In my family I have in terms of generations removed Morrissey, Cantwell, Wafer, Walsh (x2 one from mother and father), Dillon, Caulfield(?) and I think one Brett.

The names can be misleading as people adopted names of landlords to keep land or were actually forced to adopt non Gaelic names on pain of loss of property and other rights. My surname is Kenny. We are from the Wicklow/Wexford border back to at least the 1600s. The main group of Kennys are from Connacht. There were also settlers called Kenny in Wexford who arrived from Somerset. My ydna shows me not to be related to the Connacht Kennys but rather to be from the same group as the Gaelic O'Byrnes, O'Tooles etc. It could be that to hold onto land in Wexford owned by the English Kennys one of my distant ancestors adopted their name. Walsh signifies someone from Wales so there is only a geographic link in that name. So surnames in Ireland carry only a noisy signal.

I have a similar percentage for the Scots group. Of the 36 Matches: 23 are between 2nd and 4th Cousins and the remaining 13 are Distant.

I can't look at the locations of the members but I can see that a lot of the matches are from my mothers family which is not Ulster Scots, so I would assume the Scots on their end is from some line that I am not connected to.

My American cousins are the only ones that I match with from my line that would be close.

I have no idea where the other Distant members come in. They are located in United States, Nova Scotia and Australia.

Makes me question the legitimacy of the Genetic Communities.

Jessie
09-07-2017, 02:28 AM
Well, I don't know.. But if it picked it up in the Genetic Community, then one can assume it's accurate.

It's gotta be close in generations though as 34% would cover a large volume of his relatives.

It is of course possible but you would think he would mention something important like having recent non-Irish ancestry. He just puts it down to general British involvement in Ireland. Not sure why he would not mention recent non-Irish ancestry if he was aware of it.

Jessie
09-07-2017, 02:31 AM
Well, I don't know.. But if it picked it up in the Genetic Community, then one can assume it's accurate.

It's gotta be close in generations though as 34% would cover a large volume of his relatives.

Well CillKenny got 20% in Southern England without any recent known English ancestry (correct me if I'm wrong). Also it completely missed my half Connacht ancestry and only gave me one genetic community with Irish in Southern Ireland. It might not be completely foolproof yet. I'm just giving him (Jacksepticeye) the benefit of a doubt and would presume he'd mention his known ancestry.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:43 AM
If it was 10% etc I wouldn't be as flippant but 34% suggests that it covers multiple generations.

Sikeliot
09-07-2017, 03:14 AM
If it was 10% etc I wouldn't be as flippant but 34% suggests that it covers multiple generations.

If it is 34% and it is all from one grandparent he would know. Or if he even had one great grandparent he should know. This implies to me it is spread across his family.

Sikeliot
09-07-2017, 03:16 AM
He is from Athlone though. I don't think Athlone was a Plantation area.

Yes. Or at least in close proximity.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Plantations_in_Ireland.png

Also, it is right at the crossroads of Norman influenced areas:

http://www.oocities.org/capitolhill/parliament/7135/Normannach.gif

stealth
09-07-2017, 04:22 AM
Ancestry is good test for people with diverse/mixed parental heritage in my opinion. For people with parents from same historical country/region/culture less effective and more general results. To compare with other tests my scores change, here is example below. 2 years ago I took test Ancestry DNA. I should have taken 23andme for my case. However there is some good sites for uploading raw data, Geneplaza is new and also free test, good test for me based off my family history.

Ancestry

18588

Geneplaza

18589

^ You can see that Ancestry is comparing me against local Slavic population I am native thats why I score 99%. Geneplaza digs deeper into results to show me real admixture.

Don Felipe
09-07-2017, 10:33 AM
Well, I don't know.. But if it picked it up in the Genetic Community, then one can assume it's accurate.

I think the confidence level of his S. English GC will be crucial if it's only 20% like for CillKenny then it might just reflect someting generic. However if he does have relatively close DNA matches in this GC it will be much more likely that it's due to some recent connection. On the other hand i'm wondering if it might also be reversed, as in that his Southern English matches have recent Irish ancestry rather than the other way around. I have seen this for other people i am sharing profiles with (Africans being assigned to a GC intended for African Americans).



It is of course possible but you would think he would mention something important like having recent non-Irish ancestry. He just puts it down to general British involvement in Ireland. Not sure why he would not mention recent non-Irish ancestry if he was aware of it.

I agree, then again not being aware of something doesn't perse mean it's not there ;) just keeping all options open an NPE might be a possibility. But perhaps also involving rather his greatgrandparents. He did mention explicitly all of his grandparents are Irish however he also added that he doesn't know anything beyond and hasn't done any familytree research.


If it was 10% etc I wouldn't be as flippant but 34% suggests that it covers multiple generations.

Yes the amount is quite striking given what i have seen sofar. Obviously the number of observations in my survey is quite limited but still out of 26 randomly picked results (from all over Ireland it seems), 19 people scored more than 90% "Ireland", while 22/26 score over 80%. Not including Jacks's results the "Great Britain" group average would be only a mere 1,5%. Naturally it could very well be that it turns out that "native" Irish do indeed show a greater variation than i have seen sofar. But for now it does seem indicative of something.

Don Felipe
09-07-2017, 10:39 AM
Ancestry is good test for people with diverse/mixed parental heritage in my opinion. For people with parents from same historical country/region/culture less effective and more general results. To compare with other tests my scores change, here is example below. 2 years ago I took test Ancestry DNA. I should have taken 23andme for my case. However there is some good sites for uploading raw data, Geneplaza is new and also free test, good test for me based off my family history.
.

I guess it depends on what kind of information/confirmation you're looking for. If you are indeed fully Ukrainian then i would say that a DNA test which describes you as nearly 100% East European is right on the mark. However if you're also interested in knowing about your deep ancestry beyond any modernday ethnic affiliations then it will be of no added value indeed. Ironically it seems for many Western Europeans it's more so the last variant which is being provided.

Based on your family history were you expecting to see any recent non-Ukrainian/Slavic lineage as well?

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 11:49 AM
Michael Healy-Rae is from Cork but his genetic community is more towards Kerry.

http://img2.thejournal.ie/inline/3294585/original?width=630&version=3294585

http://i63.tinypic.com/1c5mp.png

He's actually from Kerry, but he had stronger pull towards 'Cork' which was source of great amusement when his results were announced on live TV. What people forget is that South Kerry and West Cork formed the one 'county' until 1606 eg. (County of Desmond) which corresponded to pre-existing Kingdom of Desmond which never came under Norman control. Healy is actually a 'cork' surname within the boundaries of Desmond.

you can see their landholding here north of McCarthy estates in Muskerry:

http://www.mccarthyclan.org/images/DesmondSepts.png
18600

His actual surname is Healy, the 'Rae' bit is a 'nickname' coming from the townland that his later father (Jackie Healy-Rae) was born in.

stealth
09-07-2017, 11:54 AM
I guess it depends on what kind of information/confirmation you're looking for. If you are indeed fully Ukrainian then i would say that a DNA test which describes you as nearly 100% East European is right on the mark. However if you're also interested in knowing about your deep ancestry beyond any modernday ethnic affiliations then it will be of no added value indeed. Ironically it seems for many Western Europeans it's more so the last variant which is being provided.

Based on your family history were you expecting to see any recent non-Ukrainian/Slavic lineage as well?

Well I have Sephardic Jewish grandparent. I score 8.9% Eastern Mediterranean, 7.4% Southwestern European, 1.1% Ambiguous West Eurasian= 17.4%. Also expected some Bulgarian roots on paternal side from Bessarabia, this will be in my 80.9% North Slavic. I score also 1.7% Ambiguous Non-West Eurasian. Other family members were Poles and Ukrainians only, and have lived in same region for generations.

Here is my K13 for compare.

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.5% Estonian_Polish + 12.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.38
2 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.44
3 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.49
4 86.6% Belorussian + 13.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.5
5 88.5% Belorussian + 11.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.5
6 88.6% Belorussian + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.6
7 78.7% Lithuanian + 21.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.66
8 90.2% Estonian_Polish + 9.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.7
9 89.7% Estonian_Polish + 10.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.72
10 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.73
11 84.1% Belorussian + 15.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.76
12 90.3% Estonian_Polish + 9.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.77
13 85.4% Estonian_Polish + 14.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.79
14 87.9% Estonian_Polish + 12.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.8
15 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
16 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% South_Italian @ 3.84
17 87.9% Belorussian + 12.1% South_Italian @ 3.87
18 89.5% Belorussian + 10.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.88
19 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.89
20 79.6% Belorussian + 20.4% Bulgarian @ 3.9

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 11:59 AM
Very interesting, thanks for sharing (and also that video!) , how common would those Norman surnames be for Ireland?
The confidence level for your S. English GC does seem rather low, it makes me wonder how high it was for Jacksepticeye. How many individual DNA matches are reported for you under this GC?

Around ~20% of Irish people bear surnames that are post 1169 eg. Cambro-Norman (Old-English eg. they stayed catholic), 'New-English' (Protestant adventurers of Tudor conquest) and obviously Scottish (17th century Presbyterian etc.)

When it comes to births here were the top 10 surnames by number of births in 2016

Surname Number
Murphy 697 -- Gaelic Irish
Kelly 598 -- Gaelic Irish
O'Brien 528 -- Gaelic Irish
Ryan 477 -- Gaelic Irish
Walsh 464 -- Cambro-Norman
Byrne 453 -- Gaelic Irish
O'Sullivan 426 -- Gaelic Irish
O'Connor 411 -- Gaelic Irish
Doyle 336 -- Gaelic Irish* (people say viking, but it's case of Dubhghall becoming personal name and not meaning a Dane)
McCarthy 323 -- Gaelic Irish

Walsh as a surname comes into Ireland with the Cambro-Norman's (Welsh-Norman's) most of the bulk of common troops etc were actually Welsh. The other nine surnames are all native Irish, people claim that Doyle is viking but this is an over-literal translation of the name.

What should be remember is that the Normans heavily intermarried in Ireland, most of the major Baron's were half Irish within two generations and by the mid 14th century many of them spoke Irish as their preferred language and not Norman-French (let alone Middle-English!!)

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 12:01 PM
You would think he would mention if he had a GB grandparent. In his video he explains it by the British involvment in Ireland and doesn't mention anything about a grandparent. Do you know for sure if he has a GB grandparent? I mean English people can get 45%+ Ireland without any Irish connections.

Athlone was a major Garrison town for the British Army, depending how deep his ancestry is in area he could have partial British ancestry through that. Of course it should be noted that the British army was about 40% Irish in 1830.

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 06:52 PM
The other thing to mention about Athlone is that there was a reasonably sized protestant population in the town. My father who is from Athlone has mentioned about this, for example the 'slogans' (Slogan comes from Irish 'Slua-ghairm' eg. battle cry ;) ) that the school boys would shout at each other etc.

In the 1901 census ~81% of the sampleset report as Catholic, the rest are either protestant (Anglican coming in at ~12.5%) or undeclared. The 'Galway Urban' DED (eg. core of modern Galway city) in comparison which had larger population was 92% Catholic in comparison in the same census.

So purely speculative on my part but perhaps that youtuber has recent protestant ancestry (eg. great-grandparents/great-great-grandparents etc.)

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 09:55 PM
My Protestant ancestry goes back as far as I can trace. It did not appear as GB (at all), so it is best not to focus on religion, because the GB component may be mixed out if the family has been in Ireland for hundred of years.

Again, I think that he has a very recent British ancestor, because I would not think a native Irish person would record that high a GB percentage.

Jessie
09-08-2017, 07:08 AM
My Protestant ancestry goes back as far as I can trace. It did not appear as GB (at all), so it is best not to focus on religion, because the GB component may be mixed out if the family has been in Ireland for hundred of years.

Again, I think that he has a very recent British ancestor, because I would not think a native Irish person would record that high a GB percentage.

Yes it's quite possible but you would think his parents would tell him if one of them had an English grandparent e.g. his great grandparent. Possibly they just might not be aware of it. I know he mentioned he was taking a 23andMe test so that would be interesting to see when he gets the results (if he does publish them).

Dubhthach
09-08-2017, 08:58 AM
He's not particularly old, i imagine his parents are still alive, perhaps someone should suggest to him that he gets one of his parents (or both) to do AncestryDNA test, that way it would be possible to see if he's inheriting the component from both or is specific to one side of family.

Dubhthach
09-08-2017, 09:04 AM
My Protestant ancestry goes back as far as I can trace. It did not appear as GB (at all), so it is best not to focus on religion, because the GB component may be mixed out if the family has been in Ireland for hundred of years.

Again, I think that he has a very recent British ancestor, because I would not think a native Irish person would record that high a GB percentage.

Sure but I do wonder due to size of military base in Athlone if it's case of admixture in the 19th century. As you mention your family has been in Ireland for several hundred years. We know that in places like Curragh (Kildare) and Athlone, let alone Dublin with it's 7+ barraks, that there were large numbers of English born troops (and often their families) throughout the 19th and early 20th century up until the British Army withdrew in 1922.



In terms of statistics, an early 19th century list gives the total accommodation in 121 permanent and 171 temporary barracks (both infantry and cavalry barracks) as 73,462 personnel, including 2,525 officers and 70,937 other ranks (non-commissioned officers/N.C.O.s and private soldiers). No further accurate strength figures for the British Army in Ireland are available until 1859, when monthly data from individual units/regiments becomes available. However, part of an unverified series of annual strength data for the period 1802 to 1844 shows 11,961 personnel in Ireland in 1802; 22,780 in 1822 and 21,251 in 1844. On 1st of Dec 1844, a total of seven cavalry regiments and thirty-one infantry units, including depots, were stationed in Ireland.

The strength of the British Army in Ireland before the handover of the barracks (which occurred following the Anglo-Irish Treaty of December 1921) tells its own story. On 1st October 1921, there were 57,116 personnel, an increase of 8,376 on the October 1920 figure and of 22,834 on the 1913 figure. The evacuation plan for the British forces envisaged that troops would be concentrated in Victoria (now Collins) Barracks, Cork, at the Curragh camp (containing seven separate barracks and now the Defence Forces Training Centre) and in Dublin city barracks, and that the evacuation would occur in that order . Once the Truce had been signed, the first barracks to be evacuated was at Clogheen, on 25th January, 1922. The last military post to be handed over to the Irish Free State (excluding the treaty ports in 1939) was the Royal (now Collins) Barracks in Dublin, on 17th December, 1922.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 11:44 AM
It would be interesting to see what a Protestant in Northern Ireland would get if they did the DNA test. If the results came back Irish it would sort of prove the Celtic theory.

I don't have any of my Protestant side doing the test, all my matches are my mothers side so I cannot check.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 11:46 AM
Yes it's quite possible but you would think his parents would tell him if one of them had an English grandparent e.g. his great grandparent. Possibly they just might not be aware of it. I know he mentioned he was taking a 23andMe test so that would be interesting to see when he gets the results (if he does publish them).

Yeah probably is the case to be honest.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 11:48 AM
Sure but I do wonder due to size of military base in Athlone if it's case of admixture in the 19th century. As you mention your family has been in Ireland for several hundred years. We know that in places like Curragh (Kildare) and Athlone, let alone Dublin with it's 7+ barraks, that there were large numbers of English born troops (and often their families) throughout the 19th and early 20th century up until the British Army withdrew in 1922.

A good theory and probably right. Never the less, I find it bizarre that he would have such a high percentage of Southern English ancestry and not be aware of it. Very odd.

That would definitely be known in my family.

J Man
09-08-2017, 03:08 PM
It would be interesting to see what a Protestant in Northern Ireland would get if they did the DNA test. If the results came back Irish it would sort of prove the Celtic theory.

I don't have any of my Protestant side doing the test, all my matches are my mothers side so I cannot check.

Yeah that would be interesting to see for sure. My great uncle is 100% North Irish Protestant but he has only tested with FTDNA and 23andme.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 03:31 PM
What did his results indicate?

J Man
09-08-2017, 03:50 PM
^His results look quite British I would say.

sktibo
09-08-2017, 04:21 PM
It would be interesting to see what a Protestant in Northern Ireland would get if they did the DNA test. If the results came back Irish it would sort of prove the Celtic theory.

I don't have any of my Protestant side doing the test, all my matches are my mothers side so I cannot check.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8801-Reference-populations-for-AncestryDNA
You can see a map here of where Ancestry DNA took samples from for Ireland - note it's northern Ireland too not just the Republic. But DNA from Northern Ireland has already been mapped by the POBI and yes they're Celtic, along with the Lowland Scottish. Not a lot of Germanic admixture in those groups.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 04:42 PM
Yeah, it'd be great if someone from NI could post their results but I don't think there are too many people from NI who have done this test.

^His results look quite British I would say.


Does it actually split the results into GB and Ireland though?

sktibo
09-08-2017, 08:51 PM
Yeah, it'd be great if someone from NI could post their results but I don't think there are too many people from NI who have done this test.



Does it actually split the results into GB and Ireland though?

Contact Jonathanmcg1990 he's Northern Irish and has done Ancestry DNA. I think his results are pretty much just Ireland

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 09:02 PM
I see that you have Ancestry from Coleraine, that is where a lot of my ancestry is from. Did Jonathan do an AncestryDNA test? I can only see LivingDNA.

sktibo
09-08-2017, 09:14 PM
I see that you have Ancestry from Coleraine, that is where a lot of my ancestry is from. Did Jonathan do an AncestryDNA test? I can only see LivingDNA.

Yes he did test with Ancestry, but I think you'll have to PM him to get his results I'm not sure they're posted here.
I owe 6.25% of my paper trail ancestry to ancestors from Coleraine, Protestants who listed themselves as Scottish on the censuses. The other 6.25% of my ancestry from Ireland is also most likely Scotch-Irish, but I have no data on them aside from a Scottish and a generic surname, Protestant religion, and one of them listed as "Scotch" on a census. Hardly any Irish % with Ancestry however, (6%, although it was my only other non-trace region aside from Great Britain) I'm pretty mixed so I think I gave it a hard time.. my mother's results are in the works with Ancestry and I'm really curious as to what Ireland percentage it will assign her, these Irish ancestors are from her side.

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 09:15 PM
Hmm, maybe at some point not too comfortable doing that. What is the surname for your ancestors from Coleraine? Funny that they listed as Scottish.

I have suspicion that my ancestors from that are are Scots-Irish but I cannot prove it.

sktibo
09-08-2017, 09:22 PM
Hmm, maybe at some point not too comfortable doing that. What is the surname for your ancestors from Coleraine? Funny that they listed as Scottish.

I have suspicion that my ancestors from that are are Scots-Irish but I cannot prove it.

Reid and King. When I was researching it I read that quite a lot of Coleraine's population was imported from Lowland Scotland. I'm guessing that the fact that they listed themselves as "Scotch" might indicate they were fairly recent arrivals at the time

Nqp15hhu
09-08-2017, 09:30 PM
Know the surname King, yes. You are right yes, there is a Scottish tinge to the accent.

jonathanmcg1990
09-11-2017, 01:44 PM
Yeah, it'd be great if someone from NI could post their results but I don't think there are too many people from NI who have done this test.



Does it actually split the results into GB and Ireland though?

Did you get my private message Npq15hhu?

Nqp15hhu
09-11-2017, 04:36 PM
I have received your Private Message, you were supposed to attach your Gedmatch number.

I was more concerned with comparing our Ancestry DNA results though.. Just too see what your thoughts were on the Irish component and it's size.

To be truthful, I don't understand the Gedmatch results. The results seem to categorise our Ancestry DNA results into deep ancestry.

Sikeliot
09-12-2017, 04:05 AM
On British DNA in Ireland, if you look at this PCA.. compare where the red Leinster and blue Connacht squares fall relative to the very isolated Ulster cluster (the Catholics most likely with mostly native Irish descent) and the English.. they are roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the way to England. If this is how they plot relative to mostly "pure" Irish, it is not inconceivable some Irish could score very signifiant amounts of Great Britain on AncestryDNA without it being too recent.

http://i.imgur.com/oM500cv.jpg

Nqp15hhu
09-12-2017, 04:09 AM
I have been looking at my results aside from Ireland and they all suggest figures that range from 0%. Does this mean that Ancestry cannot prove that I have ancestry from these regions?

It's just my European West figure ranges from 0-15%.

If I am 88% Irish what happens to the 12% if this 12% cannot be located? Where is it from?

Nqp15hhu
09-12-2017, 04:14 AM
On British DNA in Ireland, if you look at this PCA.. compare where the red Leinster and blue Connacht squares fall relative to the very isolated Ulster cluster (the Catholics most likely with mostly native Irish descent) and the English.. they are roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the way to England. If this is how they plot relative to mostly "pure" Irish, it is not inconceivable some Irish could score very signifiant amounts of Great Britain on AncestryDNA without it being too recent.

http://i.imgur.com/oM500cv.jpg

I don't know if the religion thing holds true, at least for Ancestry DNA. I had a look at Jonathon's ancestry results and they're quite similar despite him having double the amount of Ulster Scots ancestry I have.

I am beginning to think the Ulster Scots component has been largely mixed out.

Some of the names in my family tree (all close) include:
1. Smith. (G Grandparent)
2. Black. (GG Grandparent)
3. Irwin. (GG Grandparent)
4. Thompson. (GG Grandparent)
5. Sinclair. (GG Grandparent)
6. My surname (Grandparent)

I also have matches with people of these names on Ancestry. So one would think that this would be reflected in my results as GB.

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 05:04 AM
Excellent, thanks! Have you also been assigned to one of Ancestry's Genetic Communities? I'm curious to know if there's any correlation between ethnicity estimates & genetic communities. For several Irish & British results i have both but of course my sample size is quite minimal. Hopefully Ancestry.UK will publish something about this topic eventually.

Hello, I have been assigned to the Ulster Irish genetic community with a 60% probability. My scores are 52% Irish, 37% British, 6% Scandinavian with the rest less than 1% each other stuff (could be statistical noise) :

Sorry, I am a new member so I can't post images , yet.

If you ask me my ethnicity scores are a little weird as I am both more Germanic and more Celtic than a lowland Scot simultaneously since I don't have the Europe West category in any significant amount just the Celtic, Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian for the most part.

sktibo
09-12-2017, 06:10 AM
I don't know if the religion thing holds true, at least for Ancestry DNA. I had a look at Jonathon's ancestry results and they're quite similar despite him having double the amount of Ulster Scots ancestry I have.

I am beginning to think the Ulster Scots component has been largely mixed out.

Some of the names in my family tree (all close) include:
1. Smith. (G Grandparent)
2. Black. (GG Grandparent)
3. Irwin. (GG Grandparent)
4. Thompson. (GG Grandparent)
5. Sinclair. (GG Grandparent)
6. My surname (Grandparent)

I also have matches with people of these names on Ancestry. So one would think that this would be reflected in my results as GB.

The difference between Ulster Scots and the Native Irish isn't a very big difference to begin with, both are closer to the Irish than to the English, so it's not that it's been mixed out its that they were two incredibly similar populations to begin with and the test can't tell the difference

One woman on the Ancestry DNA forums a while ago wrote a post because she was confused that she basically got only "Ireland" and no British, and that she was Scottish. I asked her if her family was from western Scotland and she said that it was.

If your goal is to tease apart very similar populations like the Irish, Ulster Scots, and Highland Scots, Ancestry DNA can't do it, they'll all match with Ireland. Living DNA may be able to do it after the Ireland project is released, but that will be over a year from now I think.

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 06:23 AM
The difference between Ulster Scots and the Native Irish isn't a very big difference to begin with, both are closer to the Irish than to the English, so it's not that it's been mixed out its that they were two incredibly similar populations to begin with and the test can't tell the difference

One woman on the Ancestry DNA forums a while ago wrote a post because she was confused that she basically got only "Ireland" and no British, and that she was Scottish. I asked her if her family was from western Scotland and she said that it was.

If your goal is to tease apart very similar populations like the Irish, Ulster Scots, and Highland Scots, Ancestry DNA can't do it, they'll all match with Ireland. Living DNA may be able to do it after the Ireland project is released, but that will be over a year from now I think.

If you are referring to the Irish Atlas project combined with POBI or livingDNA -- that is like my only hope to figure out whether I am Ulster Irish or Scottish and I have wait over a damn year for the possibility!

AncestryDNA says I am 52% Irish, 37% British and 6% Scandinavian etc.. with my genetic community as Ulster Irish with a 60% confidence probability.

Myheritage.com says I am 40.1% English (which is similar to AncestryDNA's 37 % British/English/Anglo-Saxon), 35.7 % Scottish,Irish,Welsh , 24.2 % Scandinavian and 1.7% Central Asian which would be more of a Northern Scottish result I would guess.

And the Eurogenes Oracle calculators all tell me something somewhat different. It is very frustrating to say the least. I am at my wit's end with this crap man !

Don Felipe
09-12-2017, 08:17 AM
Hello, I have been assigned to the Ulster Irish genetic community with a 60% probability. My scores are 52% Irish, 37% British, 6% Scandinavian with the rest less than 1% each other stuff (could be statistical noise) .

Thxs, where's your family from? Are all 4 of your grandparents Irish?

Nqp15hhu
09-12-2017, 09:53 AM
The difference between Ulster Scots and the Native Irish isn't a very big difference to begin with, both are closer to the Irish than to the English, so it's not that it's been mixed out its that they were two incredibly similar populations to begin with and the test can't tell the difference

One woman on the Ancestry DNA forums a while ago wrote a post because she was confused that she basically got only "Ireland" and no British, and that she was Scottish. I asked her if her family was from western Scotland and she said that it was.

If your goal is to tease apart very similar populations like the Irish, Ulster Scots, and Highland Scots, Ancestry DNA can't do it, they'll all match with Ireland. Living DNA may be able to do it after the Ireland project is released, but that will be over a year from now I think.

If there is not a difference, then why do I keep seeing reference to the two "sects" on here? I would think there would be some difference at the very minimum since they are different cultures.

Nqp15hhu
09-12-2017, 09:57 AM
Also, does anyone know how to find new matches? My 4th cousins and up has risen from 108 to 111, but I can't figure out who the new matches are.

And Ancestry has not allocated these 3 people to a Genetic Community, yet.

sktibo
09-12-2017, 04:37 PM
If you are referring to the Irish Atlas project combined with POBI or livingDNA -- that is like my only hope to figure out whether I am Ulster Irish or Scottish and I have wait over a damn year for the possibility!

AncestryDNA says I am 52% Irish, 37% British and 6% Scandinavian etc.. with my genetic community as Ulster Irish with a 60% confidence probability.

Myheritage.com says I am 40.1% English (which is similar to AncestryDNA's 37 % British/English/Anglo-Saxon), 35.7 % Scottish,Irish,Welsh , 24.2 % Scandinavian and 1.7% Central Asian which would be more of a Northern Scottish result I would guess.

And the Eurogenes Oracle calculators all tell me something somewhat different. It is very frustrating to say the least. I am at my wit's end with this crap man !

I'm referring to the Ireland DNA project by Living DNA

Don't trust myheritage, it's not reliable

Oracles aren't often to be taken literally

Unless you can do it with a paper trail you you won't know until the Living DNA Ireland project is released and that's not a certainty


If there is not a difference, then why do I keep seeing reference to the two "sects" on here? I would think there would be some difference at the very minimum since they are different cultures.

I didn't say there was no difference I said there's a very small difference, one that cannot be detected by a test with only two British Isles categories

Cultures do not necessarily represent the genetic makeup of a population

As I said to to Teutorigos, using DNA testing your only real shot at telling these populations apart with what is on the market would be with Living DNA's test after the Irish DNA project results are incorporated. Trying to look at your Ancestry DNA results isn't going to tell you anything that you don't know - your ancestors all lived on the Island of Ireland. It is not a test that splits Northern Ireland from the Republic.

Currently, I'm waiting on Living DNAs Irish project results too as I have ancestors from Ireland that I can't tell if they're Scotch-Irish or Native Irish. I'd really like to know!
At the very least, you'll have some company while you wait, and others to discuss this topic with here. We'll likely throw a big online party when the day finally arrives :)

Nqp15hhu
09-12-2017, 04:57 PM
Would there be a possibility of uploading Ancestry DNA results to Living DNA?

sktibo
09-12-2017, 06:22 PM
Would there be a possibility of uploading Ancestry DNA results to Living DNA?

Yes, I actually asked Living DNA if they would accept the current version of Ancestry DNA as an upload, and they said yes.
However
The chip type between the current Ancestry DNA and Living DNA is very different, Living DNA utilizing imputation and we know that this doesn't translate well via GEDmatch.
Therefore I don't actually believe Living DNA will be able to successfully transfer results from Ancestry, 23andme v4 or earlier, or FTDNA, despite what they told me. I think they'll be able to transfer 23andme v5.
So...
You'll probably have to buy Living DNA's test, do the cheek swab, ect.

It's a long answer to your question but I wanted to give you the details

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 06:36 PM
Thxs, where's your family from? Are all 4 of your grandparents Irish?

One side of my family I can't confirm but from hearsay , of my paternal grandfather, he was from Donegal Ulster Ireland. Paternal Grandmother was English or English/Scottish mix, Paternal Grandfather was supposedly from Munster Ireland and my maternal Grandmother was from Alsace-Lorraine France.

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 07:05 PM
Unless you can do it with a paper trail you you won't know until the Living DNA Ireland project is released and that's not a certainty.

Well, there is one side of the family , namely, my paternal grandfather who I can't find any information on but he used to tell everyone his family was from Ulster Donegal Ireland. However, Donegal had both native Irish and Scotch-Irish people living there. My Paternal grandmother I was able to trace her father to London England but she was probably an English/Scottish mix overall. My maternal grandfather was supposedly from Munster Ireland and my maternal grandmother was from Alsace-Lorraine but I could trace some of her family all the way back to Prussia because people from Alsace-Lorraine are kind of like the ethnic Germans of France.

So, I am a mutt but the question is whether my mutt mix is analogous to the British/Scottish mutt mix since the British are mutts too, of course. I mean genetically how much difference could there be between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaidligh ? Also, Mary Queen of Scots could trace ancestors to Lorraine France that is where her Royal House of Guise was.

I once read from an old school anthropologist, some of whose terminology is ostensibly outdated now, that English nationalism was the rise of the Germanic Anglo-Saxon type, Irish nationalism the rise of the Upper Paleolithic Brunn type and Scottish nationalism was the rise of the Atlanto-med plus native Irish in the West and the rise of the bronze age Scandinavian type (Tronder ?) in the NorthEast.

Anyway, I certainly don't look Brunn my phenotype is more Atlantid than anything.

Camulogène Rix
09-12-2017, 07:24 PM
I once read from an old school anthropologist, some of whose terminology is ostensibly outdated now, that English nationalism was the rise of the Germanic Anglo-Saxon type, Irish nationalism the rise of the Upper Paleolithic Brunn type and Scottish nationalism was the rise of the Atlanto-med plus native Irish in the West and the rise of the bronze age Scandinavian type (Tronder ?) in the NorthEast.

Anyway, I certainly don't look Brunn my phenotype is more Atlantid than anything.
Attached a good example of Irishman (County Clare) with an Upper Palaeolithic Brünn type (mesocephalic)
18708

sktibo
09-12-2017, 07:36 PM
Well, there is one side of the family , namely, my paternal grandfather who I can't find any information on but he used to tell everyone his family was from Ulster Donegal Ireland. However, Donegal had both native Irish and Scotch-Irish people living there. My Paternal grandmother I was able to trace her father to London England but she was probably an English/Scottish mix overall. My maternal grandfather was supposedly from Munster Ireland and my maternal grandmother was from Alsace-Lorraine but I could trace some of her family all the way back to Prussia because people from Alsace-Lorraine are kind of like the ethnic Germans of France.

So, I am a mutt but the question is whether my mutt mix is analogous to the British/Scottish mutt mix since the British are mutts too, of course. I mean genetically how much difference could there be between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaidligh ? Also, Mary Queen of Scots could trace ancestors to Lorraine France that is where her Royal House of Guise was.

I once read from an old school anthropologist, some of whose terminology is ostensibly outdated now, that English nationalism was the rise of the Germanic Anglo-Saxon type, Irish nationalism the rise of the Upper Paleolithic Brunn type and Scottish nationalism was the rise of the Atlanto-med plus native Irish in the West and the rise of the bronze age Scandinavian type (Tronder ?) in the NorthEast.

Anyway, I certainly don't look Brunn my phenotype is more Atlantid than anything.

I wouldn't put any weight into physical anthropology, your physical appearance is only a small part of your genetic makeup and if you're mixed I really don't think it can hold much or any value.

Gaelic Scottish will really depend on what region of Scotland, the outer Hebrides, such as Lewis, will have more Scandinavian admixture for example... but Western Scottish will more or less be indistinguishable from Ireland unless you're examining it very closely. This is something I really would love to be able to see the divide in with myself too, Highland vs Lowland, Ireland vs Scotland, ect, but these are all such closely related populations that I don't think the technology is there yet. All of the Isles populations plus Lower Rhine German and Dutch all descend from the same Bell Beaker base population and it gets really tricky sorting them out, and when we're looking at the Irish and Scottish it's even trickier to split them up.

So, we're waiting for what looks to be quite a long time, certainly years, but if we hang in there and manage to continue to survive it looks likely that we might be able to answer these questions. I'm hopeful for the long term.

Teutorigos
09-13-2017, 07:03 AM
I wouldn't put any weight into physical anthropology, your physical appearance is only a small part of your genetic makeup and if you're mixed I really don't think it can hold much or any value.

I was already aware that phenotype is only a small subset of the underlying genotype but humans are a complicated social species and your phenotype has to have more social impact than your non-visible autosomal DNA.


Gaelic Scottish will really depend on what region of Scotland, the outer Hebrides, such as Lewis, will have more Scandinavian admixture for example... but Western Scottish will more or less be indistinguishable from Ireland unless you're examining it very closely. This is something I really would love to be able to see the divide in with myself too, Highland vs Lowland, Ireland vs Scotland, ect, but these are all such closely related populations that I don't think the technology is there yet. All of the Isles populations plus Lower Rhine German and Dutch all descend from the same Bell Beaker base population and it gets really tricky sorting them out, and when we're looking at the Irish and Scottish it's even trickier to split them up. So, we're waiting for what looks to be quite a long time, certainly years, but if we hang in there and manage to continue to survive it looks likely that we might be able to answer these questions. I'm hopeful for the long term.


No argument from me here. I totally agree.

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 12:14 PM
Well, there is one side of the family , namely, my paternal grandfather who I can't find any information on but he used to tell everyone his family was from Ulster Donegal Ireland. However, Donegal had both native Irish and Scotch-Irish people living there. My Paternal grandmother I was able to trace her father to London England but she was probably an English/Scottish mix overall. My maternal grandfather was supposedly from Munster Ireland and my maternal grandmother was from Alsace-Lorraine but I could trace some of her family all the way back to Prussia because people from Alsace-Lorraine are kind of like the ethnic Germans of France.

So, I am a mutt but the question is whether my mutt mix is analogous to the British/Scottish mutt mix since the British are mutts too, of course. I mean genetically how much difference could there be between Irish Gaelic and Scottish Gaidligh ? Also, Mary Queen of Scots could trace ancestors to Lorraine France that is where her Royal House of Guise was.

I once read from an old school anthropologist, some of whose terminology is ostensibly outdated now, that English nationalism was the rise of the Germanic Anglo-Saxon type, Irish nationalism the rise of the Upper Paleolithic Brunn type and Scottish nationalism was the rise of the Atlanto-med plus native Irish in the West and the rise of the bronze age Scandinavian type (Tronder ?) in the NorthEast.

Anyway, I certainly don't look Brunn my phenotype is more Atlantid than anything.

With regards to Donegal what's the specific surname? As for difference between Irish and Scottish Gaidhlig, well for an english speaker the best comparison would to think about the differences between Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. The divergence between modern Irish and modern Scottish Gaidhlig probably dates back on order of 1,000 years, though obviously they shared a common literary standard in the shape of 'Early Modern Irish' until the 16-17th centuries.

cilldara
09-13-2017, 12:47 PM
Here are my AncestryDNA Ethnicity Estimate results -

18719

Nqp15hhu
09-13-2017, 02:37 PM
Where are you from?

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 02:40 PM
Where are you from?

Cill Dara = Kildare

Teutorigos
09-13-2017, 09:37 PM
I was already aware that phenotype is only a small subset of the underlying genotype but humans are a complicated social species and your phenotype has to have more social impact than your non-visible autosomal DNA.


Well, I guess that did not make much sense as autosomal DNA controls or programs a vast array of functions including social but I think you know what I meant. I meant humans are kind of superficial socially and phenotype is superficial.


With regards to Donegal what's the specific surname? As for difference between Irish and Scottish Gaidhlig, well for an english speaker the best comparison would to think about the differences between Danish, Norwegian and Swedish. The divergence between modern Irish and modern Scottish Gaidhlig probably dates back on order of 1,000 years, though obviously they shared a common literary standard in the shape of 'Early Modern Irish' until the 16-17th centuries.

Last name is Burke which is traditionally Hiberno-Norman Catholic but there were other Anglo-Normans like famous British statesman, from Ireland, Edmund Burke who were Protestant.

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 10:21 PM
Well, I guess that did not make much sense as autosomal DNA controls or programs a vast array of functions including social but I think you know what I meant. I meant humans are kind of superficial socially and phenotype is superficial.



Last name is Burke which is traditionally Hiberno-Norman Catholic but there were other Anglo-Normans like famous British statesman, from Ireland, Edmund Burke who were Protestant.

In case of Edmund Burke though his father possibly had converted to Church of Ireland from Catholicism, leaving that aside Edmund's mother was a Catholic and his sister was brought up as one.

In the 1901 census there were 152 Burke's in Donegal, of whom 133 were Catholic, and at least 14 were Presbyterian.

Nqp15hhu
09-13-2017, 10:58 PM
Burke is a dead certain Irish name. There won't be too many Scots in Donegal.

AngryLeeloo94
09-15-2017, 12:04 AM
I'm mostly West European,Sicilian, Irish, & English. This is what I got.

Europe 95%

Europe West 41%
Italy/Greece 20%
Great Britain 14%
Ireland 12%
European Jewish 3%
Iberian Peninsula 3%
Europe East < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%

West Asia 5%

Caucasus 2%
Middle East 3%

Sikeliot
09-15-2017, 01:09 AM
I'm mostly West European,Sicilian, Irish, & English. This is what I got.

Europe 95%

Europe West 41%
Italy/Greece 20%
Great Britain 14%
Ireland 12%
European Jewish 3%
Iberian Peninsula 3%
Europe East < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%

West Asia 5%

Caucasus 2%
Middle East 3%



Jewish, Caucasus, Middle East, and much of the Italy/Greece is definitely from your Sicilian side.

AngryLeeloo94
09-15-2017, 03:44 AM
I usually score 10% or more West asian on every other dna estimate on gedmatch.

Dubhthach
09-15-2017, 11:58 AM
Burke is a dead certain Irish name. There won't be too many Scots in Donegal.

Have to contest the second part, the eastern part of Donegal (The Laggan) had large scale Scottish settlement. Thence the presence of 'Ulster Scots' in Donegal.

http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/images/mapping-ulster-scots-1.jpg

If we look at the linguistic situation in the late 18th century the very low levels of Irish as spoken language in East Donegal is other hint at the affect of Plantation in that part of Donegal.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Donegal-1771-small.jpg

In 1891 census Donegal was 80.2% Catholic, that's a large non Catholic population for time, as a comparison Sligo was 90.8% Catholic and Galway was over 97% Catholic!

Nqp15hhu
09-15-2017, 01:24 PM
And my county is something like 60% Protestant, so that's a tiny number to me.

I appreciate your point though.

sktibo
09-15-2017, 05:15 PM
Have to contest the second part, the eastern part of Donegal (The Laggan) had large scale Scottish settlement. Thence the presence of 'Ulster Scots' in Donegal.

http://www.libraryireland.com/gregg/images/mapping-ulster-scots-1.jpg

If we look at the linguistic situation in the late 18th century the very low levels of Irish as spoken language in East Donegal is other hint at the affect of Plantation in that part of Donegal.

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Donegal-1771-small.jpg

In 1891 census Donegal was 80.2% Catholic, that's a large non Catholic population for time, as a comparison Sligo was 90.8% Catholic and Galway was over 97% Catholic!

This is particularly interesting as it relates to Sikeliot's predictions about the Irish DNA Atlas results: He thinks Donegal will come out as the "most" Irish - meaning furthest removed from the English and other Insular clusters - and IIRC part of this was due to the lack of Protestants in Donegal, but I wasn't aware that they had a fairly significant Scottish & or Protestant population in there. This might contest that theory a little bit. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts.

He could still be correct of course! I hope we find out sooner than later. These are incredibly exciting times for fans of Irish DNA.

Nqp15hhu
09-15-2017, 06:16 PM
I'm afraid that isn't the case at all. I live in the county over so I am familiar with Donegal.

Donegal has a sizeable Catholic majority. There are some pockets of Protestant settlements but these are far and few between.Perhaps in the past there may have been a larger Protestant settement, but this has changed with mixed marriages.

This document shows that Donegal was 85% Catholic in 2011.
http://census.cso.ie/areaprofiles/PDF/CTY/donegal.pdf

There is a sharp geographical divide in religious denomination in Northern Ireland. Apart from the Waterside in Derry there are very few areas of large Protestant Settlement past the Sperrin mountains.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3a/Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png/300px-Religion_or_religion_brought_up_in.png

Dubhthach
09-16-2017, 03:01 PM
This is particularly interesting as it relates to Sikeliot's predictions about the Irish DNA Atlas results: He thinks Donegal will come out as the "most" Irish - meaning furthest removed from the English and other Insular clusters - and IIRC part of this was due to the lack of Protestants in Donegal, but I wasn't aware that they had a fairly significant Scottish & or Protestant population in there. This might contest that theory a little bit. I'd be interested to hear his thoughts.

He could still be correct of course! I hope we find out sooner than later. These are incredibly exciting times for fans of Irish DNA.

It's worth pointing out though that Donegal did have widespread decline in it's protestant population post partition. This reflects the sitatuion in both Monaghan and Cavan as well. It's worth looking at the census data, we see that between 1891 and 1936 that the protestant population in Donegal declined from 59,945 to 23,003 (Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Methodist) that's a 62% decline! Alot of it due to people moving 'East' of the Border etc.

NW Donegal to this day still contains the second largest Gaeltacht in Ireland by number of daily speakers of Irish (outside of education system), though obviously widespread language shift has shrank the primary zone since the Gaeltacht boundaries were set in 1956
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeltacht-2007.png

wombatofthenorth
09-16-2017, 08:34 PM
Indeed i have also noticed this on 23andme. However i do also often see that socalled East European categories are included in German results (both AncestryDNA & 23andme). This is something i rarely if ever have observed for Dutch results. Geographically it would make sense of course. Genetically i suppose both recent and quite ancient connections might be implied.

I don't it happens too much with 23, more with Ancestry and even more with MyOrigins.

jeanL
09-21-2017, 01:12 AM
Does the Canarian show up as Iberian as opposed to North Africa?

Canarian shows up as a mix of North African and Iberian with some West African here and there.

Sikeliot
09-21-2017, 03:31 AM
A Sicilian with ancestry in Palermo, Trapani, and Agrigento provinces:

68% Italian + Greek
12% Middle East
10% Caucasus
5% Great Britain
3% European Jewish
1% Iberian
1% North African

Trixster
09-21-2017, 04:13 AM
Canarian shows up as a mix of North African and Iberian with some West African here and there.

Sounds about like my mom...she also has a few other things in the mix. Thank you so much :)

Sikeliot
09-21-2017, 11:41 AM
Greek: Half Anatolian, half Laconian

68% Italy/Greece
10% Caucasus
14% East European
3% Scandinavian
3% Iberian
2% European Jewish

Dibran
09-25-2017, 12:51 AM
Excellent, thanks! Have you also been assigned to one of Ancestry's Genetic Communities? I'm curious to know if there's any correlation between ethnicity estimates & genetic communities. For several Irish & British results i have both but of course my sample size is quite minimal. Hopefully Ancestry.UK will publish something about this topic eventually.

Interesting. My results don't match the Albanian one much. I am of full Albanian ancestry on both sides.

My results were as follows:

Italy/Greece 84%
Europe East 15%
Finland/Northwest Russia 1%

deadly77
09-25-2017, 01:52 AM
Nice work. Here are mine if you're interested (paper trail all Britain and Ireland - main regions Northeast England, Southwest Yorkshire, Norfolk, smaller contributions from Cumbria, Kent, Ireland, Scotland).

40% Great Britain
36% Europe West
15% Scandinavia
8% Ireland
<1% Finland/Northwest Russia (low confidence region)

Genetic communities: Northern English (likely), English Midlanders and Northerners (possible).

Vrump
09-25-2017, 08:24 AM
Don Felipe:

A totally dishonest thread. There must be Sicilians in the results (less European people). There is no distinction made between the ethnic groups, except between the Normans, Bretons, and so on. But you do not distinguish between other ethnic groups that do not even have the same culture, the same genetics.

Shame on you.

Claudio
10-04-2017, 07:32 PM
Again thxs alot! I have adjusted my Iberian AncestryDNA page (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/iberian-results/). Also i have calculated new group averages.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/es-stats-n10.png




The sample size is still minimal but comparing with other datasets from HGDP and 1000 genomes (see this chart (https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/08/stats-es10.png)) i think they are already quite indicative. It seems quite clear now that the reason behind the “Iberian Peninsula” group averages for Spaniards being higher than for Portuguese has to with that region being designed to pick up mostly on Basque-related DNA. Still there are other noteworthy aspects as well when comparing with the Portuguese group averages:


“Africa North” amounts seem more subdued than for Portuguese even if still detectable in almost all cases.
Just like for the Portuguese socalled “Italy/Greece” is a major secondary region, however not as pronounced.
Regional scores indicative of ancient Celtic/Germanic influences are also showing up (“Ireland”, “Great Britain”, "Europe West”).



But interestingly the biggest discrepancy sofar seems to be for socalled “Great Britain”: my Spanish samplegroup obtaining an average of 3,5% while my Portuguese samplegroup scored 12% on average. Obviously this might just be a reflection of the minimal sample size. However it will be intriguing to see if Galicians will follow the Portuguese rather than the Spanish averages, given the shared Suebi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Suebi)legacy, a Germanic kingdom from 410-565, located in Galicia and northern Portugal.

I've also noticed how On AncestryDNA Western Europeans seem to score a particularly large amount of Iberian and that mainland Portuguese seem to be scoring a large amount of Italy/Greece sometimes almost level to there Iberian score.. My question is this.. on 23andMe What are Portuguese scoring Italian like in comparison? and also on 23andMe what are West Europeans scoring Iberian like in comparison?

Koolmets21
10-07-2017, 03:58 PM
I'm 1/2 German. Both sites gives 5% southern European. But I do have Roma ancestry. So who knows.

td120
10-08-2017, 10:50 PM
Hello,

Here are my results (Bulgarian) vs. Southeastern Europeans Genetic Community averages (aggregate data based on 27,544 samples as of Oct.2017) :

Eur.Jewish(Low Confidence Region) - 5 vs 3%
Italy/Greece - 43 vs 54%
Europe East - 36 vs 15%
Caucasus - 16 vs 12%

Acc.to AncestryDNA I belong to this GC with 95% confidence .

Other ethicities common to Southeastern Europeans Genetic Community that I lack (aggregate data) :
5% Middle East
2% Great Britain
1% Irealand
3% Europe West
1% Iberia
3% Other

Don Felipe
10-08-2017, 10:56 PM
Hello,

Here are my results (Bulgarian) vs. Southeastern Europeans Genetic Community averages (aggregate data based on 27,544 samples as of Oct.2017)

Thanks! Where exactly are you finding those aggregate data for the Southeastern Europeans Genetic Community?

Don Felipe
10-08-2017, 11:02 PM
My question is this.. on 23andMe What are Portuguese scoring Italian like in comparison? and also on 23andMe what are West Europeans scoring Iberian like in comparison?

I don't know about West Europeans but for Portuguese ( & Spanish) check this great site (http://iberiandna.com/) (iberiandna.com). Italian scores seem to be on average 4,3% for the Portuguese and 3,7% for the Spaniards.

td120
10-08-2017, 11:04 PM
Don Felipe, thank you for your work!

Go to DNA->Your DNA Results Summary->Explore Insights Beta ... "GENETIC COMMUNITY INSIGHT
We’re All Unique
How does the aggregate ethnicity estimate of this Genetic Community compare to other Genetic Communities? Spin these wheels to compare percentages...."

It's a recent addition...

Don Felipe
10-08-2017, 11:06 PM
It's a recent addition...

Excellent! It doesn't seem to be activated for me though.. Perhaps you need to be assigned to a Genetic Community (i'm not)?
Does it allow you to also see the aggregate ethnicity estimates of other genetic communities? That would be awesome!

td120
10-08-2017, 11:25 PM
Don Felipe,log into the US Site . Not active yet on co.uk ,just tried it.

...and no, one can not see the statistics of the GC's they do not belong to :-). Tried with a couple others, no luck.

selectivememri
10-09-2017, 01:06 AM
thanks for the tip, i tried logging in this way, unfortunately it's kind of an underwhelming feature :(

sonofhatton
10-09-2017, 07:16 AM
I wonder how people purely from the Gaeltacht in Ireland would look.
Maybe someday someone will collect one of their samples.
Unfortunatly I doubt ill ever see this..

Nqp15hhu
10-09-2017, 07:20 AM
We've already seen people who were 100% Irish. But I don't trust the Irish category, so I would wait until there is further clarification as to it's proper origins.

Don Felipe
10-09-2017, 08:06 AM
I'm 1/2 German. Both sites gives 5% southern European. But I do have Roma ancestry. So who knows.

Do you also have any "Asia South"? From my survey findings (https://tracingafricanroots.wordpress.com/ancestrydna/south-asian-melanesian-ancestrydna-results/) it's a pretty predictive region even if not to the full 100%.

Don Felipe
10-09-2017, 08:10 AM
thanks for the tip, i tried logging in this way, unfortunately it's kind of an underwhelming feature :(

How so? It should be very useful to know the average admixture proportions for each genetic community. However many genetic communities might now still be set up too broadly (like the one for the Southeast Europeans i suppose). Future updates might improve on specificity though.

Would be cool if anyone is willing to screenshot this feature, i'm very curious about it.

Jessie
10-09-2017, 09:19 AM
I wonder how people purely from the Gaeltacht in Ireland would look.
Maybe someday someone will collect one of their samples.
Unfortunatly I doubt ill ever see this..

I thought this lady was from the Gaeltacht. She's from Galway anyway which has a Gaeltacht area.

Maura Derrane is from Galway and in fact I think she is from the Gaeltacht. Her genetic community was also in Galway.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2nth0l4.png
Personally I don't think people from the Gaeltacht will differ too much from anywhere else. Most Irish appear to get very high amounts of the Ireland component especially in the more western regions.

Also FionnSneachta posted their aunt from Connacht who was 99% Ireland and 1% Great Britain.

FionnSneachta
10-09-2017, 09:33 AM
Don Felipe, thank you for your work!

Go to DNA->Your DNA Results Summary->Explore Insights Beta ... "GENETIC COMMUNITY INSIGHT
We’re All Unique
How does the aggregate ethnicity estimate of this Genetic Community compare to other Genetic Communities? Spin these wheels to compare percentages...."

It's a recent addition...

This doesn't seem to work for me even when I log into the Ancestry.com version. I don't see the Explore Insights Beta anywhere. This is all that I see:
19209
Although I know that when I log in on my phone and go into genetic community, I can see stuff about eye colour but this doesn't appear on the laptop.

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 09:55 AM
I thought this lady was from the Gaeltacht. She's from Galway anyway which has a Gaeltacht area.

Maura Derrane is from Galway and in fact I think she is from the Gaeltacht. Her genetic community was also in Galway.

http://i67.tinypic.com/2nth0l4.png
Personally I don't think people from the Gaeltacht will differ too much from anywhere else. Most Irish appear to get very high amounts of the Ireland component especially in the more western regions.

Also FionnSneachta posted their aunt from Connacht who was 99% Ireland and 1% Great Britain.

They said she was a fourth cousin of Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh -- don't think she was too impressed by that lol

Bláthnaid though from the 'Meath Gaeltacht' is actually a Conamara woman, as the Gaeltacht in Meath was result of resettlment of native irish speakers from Conamara in the 1930's.

Blathnáid came in at 93% Irish in her AncestryDNA test.


On The Ray D’Arcy Show today, Mike Mulligan from Ancestry.com revealed DNA results that tested the “Irishness” of Ray D’Arcy, producer Will Hanafin and - Mise Éire herself - Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh!
Blathnáid said on the show today that she’s hoping for a result of “pure Irish”!
Turns out, she’s almost there:
According to Ancestry.com, Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh is 93% Irish!
The remaining DNA showed ‘trace results’ which Mike said are most likely: 3% Finland/North Russia, 1% Spanish, 1% Scandinavian.
“I can take that – I like that now,” Bláthnaid joked.

https://soundcloud.com/rte-radio-1/how-irish-is-blathnaid-ni-chofaigh

Will Hannafin
Irish: 89%
Scandinavian: 6%

Ray D'Arcy
Irish: 88%
Great Britain: 8%

Bláthnaid Ní Chofaigh
Irish: 93%
Finland/NW Russia: 3%
Iberian: 1%
Scandinavian: 1%

McGowan
10-09-2017, 10:08 AM
We've already seen people who were 100% Irish. But I don't trust the Irish category, so I would wait until there is further clarification as to it's proper origins.

But the Irish from the Gaeltacht speak Gaelic. Some areas that is their predominant language. They speak it as, or more, fluently than they do English even today. And language can indicate a possible genealogical difference, particularly in the real remote towns.

So for all we know the Irish category on these ancestry tests is not "exact", possibly skewed like a number of their categories are. I know someone who, by paper trail, is 3.25% Irish but Ancestry says he's 28% "Irish". His far smaller "Irish" related categories on other tests, and lack of Irish all over gedmatch, would imply that 28% is not quite right.

There were Vikings, Normans, Anglo-Saxons, etc. and of course English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. in Ireland over the years.

td120
10-09-2017, 10:31 AM
Copy/paste these in your browser. Shapshots of mine:
imgur.com/wfFyldA
imgur.com/AguTZuM

...sorry,not allowed to post links or uploads yet.

FionnSneachta
10-09-2017, 11:13 AM
Copy/paste these in your browser. Shapshots of mine:
imgur.com/wfFyldA
imgur.com/AguTZuM

...sorry,not allowed to post links or uploads yet.

Thanks for the reply. Wow there's a lot in there. Maybe they've only introduced it in certain genetic communities so far. It's a lot different to mine. I just have the story and connection at the moment with no insights. I'll be looking forward to that. It will be interesting to see the average ethnicity in the communities.

19214

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 11:19 AM
But the Irish from the Gaeltacht speak Gaelic. Some areas that is their predominant language. They speak it as, or more, fluently than they do English even today. And language can indicate a possible genealogical difference, particularly in the real remote towns.

So for all we know the Irish category on these ancestry tests is not "exact", possibly skewed like a number of their categories are. I know someone who, by paper trail, is 3.25% Irish but Ancestry says he's 28% "Irish". His far smaller "Irish" related categories on other tests, and lack of Irish all over gedmatch, would imply that 28% is not quite right.

There were Vikings, Normans, Anglo-Saxons, etc. and of course English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. in Ireland over the years.

The majority of all Irish people spoke Irish until about 1800. You even had Irish speakers in the Dublin mountains into the mid 19th century. Even today in the Gaeltacht ye'll find irish speakers who have 'cambro-norman' suranmes. The good example in Galway is anyone with surname Seoige (Joyce) which is of Welsh origin, whereas Breathnach (Walsh) literally means 'welsh-man'.

Language shift in Ireland is complex but it was mostly mediated by societal status of the language as oppose to mass input from Britain (for most of Island, leaving aside results of stuff like Ulster Plantation)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Gaeilge-late-18th-small.png

For example contrast the language shift form 1926 to 2006 (post independence)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge/gaeltacht1926-small.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge/Gaeltacht2007.png

19216



19215

Nqp15hhu
10-09-2017, 11:23 AM
This doesn't seem to work for me even when I log into the Ancestry.com version. I don't see the Explore Insights Beta anywhere. This is all that I see:
19209
Although I know that when I log in on my phone and go into genetic community, I can see stuff about eye colour but this doesn't appear on the laptop.

It doesn't work for me either.

Nqp15hhu
10-09-2017, 11:25 AM
But the Irish from the Gaeltacht speak Gaelic. Some areas that is their predominant language. They speak it as, or more, fluently than they do English even today. And language can indicate a possible genealogical difference, particularly in the real remote towns.

So for all we know the Irish category on these ancestry tests is not "exact", possibly skewed like a number of their categories are. I know someone who, by paper trail, is 3.25% Irish but Ancestry says he's 28% "Irish". His far smaller "Irish" related categories on other tests, and lack of Irish all over gedmatch, would imply that 28% is not quite right.

There were Vikings, Normans, Anglo-Saxons, etc. and of course English, Welsh, Scottish, etc. in Ireland over the years.

I don't think Irish language usuage really affects ancesteral percentages. If anything, I would suggest that people from Donegal would be more Irish than anywhere else due to their relative isolation.

Don Felipe
10-09-2017, 11:26 AM
Copy/paste these in your browser. Shapshots of mine:
imgur.com/wfFyldA
imgur.com/AguTZuM

...sorry,not allowed to post links or uploads yet.

Thanks a lot! Looking forward to this feature being more widely available.

Don Felipe
10-09-2017, 11:35 AM
The majority of all Irish people spoke Irish until about 1800. You even had Irish speakers in the Dublin mountains into the mid 19th century. Even today in the Gaeltacht ye'll find irish speakers who have 'cambro-norman' suranmes. The good example in Galway is anyone with surname Seoige (Joyce) which is of Welsh origin, whereas Breathnach (Walsh) literally means 'welsh-man'.

Language shift in Ireland is complex but it was mostly mediated by societal status of the language as oppose to mass input from Britain (for most of Island, leaving aside results of stuff like Ulster Plantation)

Thanks for sharing this information! Eventhough i have no Irish connection whatsoever i do find this language shift fascinating. A bit off-topic but how would you describe the average Irish man's opinion about this loss of Irish language? And how do the Irish generally feel about speaking (their own version of) English?

McGowan
10-09-2017, 11:49 AM
The majority of all Irish people spoke Irish until about 1800. You even had Irish speakers in the Dublin mountains into the mid 19th century. Even today in the Gaeltacht ye'll find irish speakers who have 'cambro-norman' suranmes. The good example in Galway is anyone with surname Seoige (Joyce) which is of Welsh origin, whereas Breathnach (Walsh) literally means 'welsh-man'.

Language shift in Ireland is complex but it was mostly mediated by societal status of the language as oppose to mass input from Britain (for most of Island, leaving aside results of stuff like Ulster Plantation)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/Gaeilge/Gaeilge-late-18th-small.png

For example contrast the language shift form 1926 to 2006 (post independence)

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge/gaeltacht1926-small.jpg

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/gaeilge/Gaeltacht2007.png

19216



19215

I would hesitate on calling anyone from Galway 100% (Celtic) Irish regardless if they spoke Irish, Scottish, Manx or Russian. Not when it was a well-known trading center & a number of Anglo-Irish did superbly there. I know one Irish family, of old Galway region history, that owned five separate farm/lots. Not rented or leased via serfdom, they owned. Inherited & granted via favour. Not surprising when they were originally English.

That's why I specifically said the remote towns. Few people would call Galway remote.

Nqp15hhu
10-09-2017, 11:54 AM
Galway is remote in my opinion.

FionnSneachta
10-09-2017, 12:02 PM
Thanks for sharing this information! Eventhough i have no Irish connection whatsoever i do find this language shift fascinating. A bit off-topic but how would you describe the average Irish man's opinion about this loss of Irish language? And how do the Irish generally feel about speaking (their own version of) English?

I think that for most people the loss of the Irish language is a great shame. It would have been great if our ancestors had been able to hold onto both the Irish and English language since English is so useful in the modern day world while with Irish it would have just been great to hold onto that part of our heritage. I remember reading that people largely dropped the Irish language around the famine time so that their children would be able to speak the same language spoken in England and America. They were almost preparing them for emigration. I know that a lot of children hate learning Irish in schools. It's not that they hate the language but a lot of people have great difficulty learning it and it doesn't help when the primary school teachers can barely speak it themselves. Certain names for things have been kept in the Irish form in certain areas. I know that my mum growing up used to always know the berries by their Irish names. It was only in more recent times that she heard them being called blueberries, etc. She hadn't actually realised that the names she was saying was Irish until I decided to look them up in the Irish dictionary one day since I thought the names sounded Irish.

There is a shift now though. The government is trying to revive the Irish language. Compared to in the past, a lot of the more wealthy people are sending their children to Irish speaking schools and Gaeltachts to help them in school since we have to learn Irish in school. Irish is 'fashionable' now as my Irish teacher used to say. I know myself that I would love to be able to speak it fluently besides from just the basics but I can't see that happening any time soon anyway.

Sikeliot
10-09-2017, 01:54 PM
I would imagine Donegal to have the most people of "pure" Irish descent as well as the extreme coastal towns in the west but not most of Galway for instance. Linguistic difference would not be a sign of ancestral difference either since Anglo-Normans, Welsh, etc. all eventually adopted Irish Gaelic and assimilated into the Gaelic speaking population early on.

spruithean
10-09-2017, 01:56 PM
I would imagine Donegal to have the most people of "pure" Irish descent as well as the extreme coastal towns in the west but not most of Galway for instance. Linguistic difference would not be a sign of ancestral difference either since Anglo-Normans, Welsh, etc. all eventually adopted Irish Gaelic and assimilated into the Gaelic speaking population early on.

Interestingly my Donegal roots seem to be a mix of Gaelic Irish and later Ulster-Scots. I wonder if perhaps there is a minority in Donegal with ancestry that isn't Gaelic Irish. However the minority won't skew the majority of the results that much...

Sikeliot
10-09-2017, 02:25 PM
Interestingly my Donegal roots seem to be a mix of Gaelic Irish and later Ulster-Scots. I wonder if perhaps there is a minority in Donegal with ancestry that isn't Gaelic Irish. However the minority won't skew the majority of the results that much...

I'm unsure. I do find discussing the internal differences within Ireland interesting. I often try to do the same with Sicily, which is a similar size in geographic mass AND population.. actually Sicily has more people than Ireland does today.

As far as Ireland goes though, it seems highly unlikely to me that Galway is a place where you'll find the most "pure" Irish people. If anywhere in near proximity would have that, it would probably be Clare.

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 02:35 PM
I would hesitate on calling anyone from Galway 100% (Celtic) Irish regardless if they spoke Irish, Scottish, Manx or Russian. Not when it was a well-known trading center & a number of Anglo-Irish did superbly there. I know one Irish family, of old Galway region history, that owned five separate farm/lots. Not rented or leased via serfdom, they owned. Inherited & granted via favour. Not surprising when they were originally English.

That's why I specifically said the remote towns. Few people would call Galway remote.

I'm not sure what your point is about 100% 'Irish' in this context, the Irish language was the majority language on entire island until 1800. In the case of the 1760's at least 2 our of every three people on the island spoke Irish as their daily language. Both Bláthnaid and Maura are native speakers. When Bláthnaid started working in RTÉ (state broadcaster) at age of 19 she was told that given her poor English (by RTÉ standards) she would never be allowed present!

As someone born in Galway City and who spent the first 25 years of my life living there I'd agree Galway City is not remote in modern context, however County Galway is the second biggest county on the island of Ireland. To drive from Galway City to westmost tip of the county takes at least an hour these days (likewise it's now about 40minutes going east on motorway to Roscommon border). The reason why the largest Gaeltacht surviving in Ireland is that of Cois Farraige/Conamara Theas (South Conemara) is because this region is historically remote within context of the last 200 years of Irish history. As a result language shift that occurred in other parts of the country didn't happen.

Both Maura and Bláthnaid fall into the distinct 'Conemara' genetic community, this reflects both the isolation of the region (hemmed in by the ocean on one side and Lough Corrib cutting it off from east Galway on other) and the fact that the survival of the irish language for so long has been partially due to endogamy in the region.

Needless to say that Gaeltacht occupies the heart of what in Irish is known as 'Iar Connacht' (West Connacht), which other than Joyce incursion into 'Joyce Country' of Northwest Galway never had any Norman input before the 17th century.

The same mechanism of remoteness during the 19th century is why NW Donegal has the second largest Gaeltacht on the island of Ireland.


Topographically Connemara appears as a natural refuge, or as a trap. Lough Corrib fences it off on the east, and the Atlantic provides the rest of its bounds: a low and labyrinthine shoreline along the south, westward-thrusting reefs and promontories, and across the north, a sea-inlet almost comparable with a Norwegian fjord, Killary Harbour. Steep mountains occupy most of the northern half, much of the south is a sea-level plain intricately interrupted by some two hundred lakes, and both highlands and lowlands are blanketed with bog, fed by a copiously oceanic sky. In early historic times (but history only made brief and tentative incursions here until much later) most of this territory was held by the Conmaicne Mara, the Conmaicne of the Sea; the name ‘Connemara’ is almost the only trace of their former presence. In the early thirteenth century they were eclipsed by the O’Flahertys, who had been masters of the fertile plain stretching eastwards from Lough Corrib, until they were driven into the wilds beyond the lough by the Normans.
Thereafter, for three hundred years, the O’Flahertys ruled and feuded in their obscure hinterlands according to the old Gaelic ways, while Galway grew into a little walled town, sea-linked to Renaissance ways, controlled by an oligarchy of merchant and banking families of Norman origin, among whom the Martins were prominent. The disaffected and rebellious O’Flahertys were the natural enemies of the Galway merchants, but the rending of Europe between two faiths eventually brought them into alliance in the 1640s. Both supported the Catholic Confederation; both suffered for it when England’s parliament overthrew the king, and Cromwell’s army savaged Ireland. The O’Flahertys were expropriated, and their rugged patrimony distributed to Cromwell’s financial backers and to Catholic landowners dispossessed of better lands now reserved for Protestants.

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 03:02 PM
Thanks for sharing this information! Eventhough i have no Irish connection whatsoever i do find this language shift fascinating. A bit off-topic but how would you describe the average Irish man's opinion about this loss of Irish language? And how do the Irish generally feel about speaking (their own version of) English?

Now there's a complicated question! Language shift (which continues to this day!) is extremely emotional issue here in Ireland in some ways which occupies a spectrum of opinion. Some argue that there is a post-colonial cultural-cringe issue, this is often seen in most extreme comments where people will argue that 'Irish is a dead language stop wasting money on it' (and that Irish speakers are 'hobbyist' eg. they only speak Irish as a 'hobby') to the other extreme where you have people saying 'Tír gan teanga, Tír gan anam' eg 'A Country (Nation) without a language is a Country without a Soul'.

What I would say with regards to 'Hiberno-English' is that most of it's salient features are been gradually chipped away into what could be termed 'Mid-Atlantic' form of 'Global English' -- part of this probably ties into cultural-inferiority complex that many people have with regards to how outsiders perceive how Irish people speak english etc. (Stage Irish accent is loathed in Ireland). Well that and of course American-English is by far the largest influence on modern 'Hiberno-English' when it comes to norm setting etc.

Sikeliot
10-09-2017, 03:09 PM
What I would say with regards to 'Hiberno-English' is that most of it's salient features are been gradually chipped away into what could be termed 'Mid-Atlantic' form of 'Global English' -- part of this probably ties into cultural-inferiority complex that many people have with regards to how outsiders perceive how Irish people speak english etc. (Stage Irish accent is loathed in Ireland). Well that and of course American-English is by far the largest influence on modern 'Hiberno-English' when it comes to norm setting etc.

We get a lot of Irish visitors in my area and from my observation, a lot of them have an accent that sounds roughly halfway between a "typical" English accent as we think of it, and a neutral American one but with a couple of distinct vowel sounds. Especially people from Dublin, I can only tell are not English from the hard R sound.

Don Felipe
10-09-2017, 03:31 PM
Appreciate the replies FionnSneachta & Dubhthach! I have always been curious to know. I was already guessing it's still more so a sensitive topic rather than people being apathetic about it. Taking a long term perspective language shift is arguably something which is just part of the human experience. But that doesn't make it any less tragic. And unfortunately due to globalization more and more languages (as well as dialects) are rapidly going extinct. The Irish case is certainly not unique therefore but probably represents one of the most well documented examples. I admire the attempts to maintain & revive the Irish language.



I know that my mum growing up used to always know the berries by their Irish names. It was only in more recent times that she heard them being called blueberries, etc. She hadn't actually realised that the names she was saying was Irish until I decided to look them up in the Irish dictionary one day since I thought the names sounded Irish.

Thanks for sharing, i love reading about such cultural retentions.




What I would say with regards to 'Hiberno-English' is that most of it's salient features are been gradually chipped away into what could be termed 'Mid-Atlantic' form of 'Global English' -- part of this probably ties into cultural-inferiority complex that many people have with regards to how outsiders perceive how Irish people speak english etc. (Stage Irish accent is loathed in Ireland). Well that and of course American-English is by far the largest influence on modern 'Hiberno-English' when it comes to norm setting etc.

Sorry to hear it (as a matter of principle i love accents no matter how they actually sound ;)). Interesting that American-English is getting more influential but not really surprising i suppose.

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 03:39 PM
We get a lot of Irish visitors in my area and from my observation, a lot of them have an accent that sounds roughly halfway between a "typical" English accent as we think of it, and a neutral American one but with a couple of distinct vowel sounds. Especially people from Dublin, I can only tell are not English from the hard R sound.

You are encountering what linguists these days are calling 'Supraregional Irish English' or 'Supraregional Hiberno-English' -- which basically developed in context of Dublin as urban center/capital and spread through the likes of media etc. Of course what should be said is that within Dublin itself there are at least three distinct accents/'dialects' which often are markers of social class etc.

http://dialectblog.com/2011/04/10/supraregional-irish-english/

Other useful reads:
http://dialectblog.com/2013/04/23/every-man-is-a-tenor-in-cork/

http://dialectblog.com/2015/01/08/irish-linguistic-diversity/

Contrast fellow Cork men:
Jonathan Rhys Meyers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITAJ1MhnI98

With Seán Óg Ó hAilpín

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUeaOz1uuJY&t=12s

Seán Óg Ó hAilpín: his father’s from Fermanagh, his mother’s from Fiji. Neither a hurling stronghold. (famous quote from a hurling match)

Sikeliot
10-09-2017, 03:43 PM
You are encountering what linguists these days are calling 'Supraregional Irish English' or 'Supraregional Hiberno-English' -- which basically developed in context of Dublin as urban center/capital and spread through the likes of media etc. Of course what should be said is that within Dublin itself there are at least three distinct accents/'dialects' which often are markers of social class etc.

There is also an accent I have heard from the south that has a lot of features in common with Caribbean English (to the extent where the accent can sound kind of Jamaican). I think this is in Kerry? I wonder if that accent will survive.

Jonathan Rhys Meyers sounds British but with a hard R sound in his speech. Definitely not what I think of as a Cork accent.

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 03:45 PM
In context of modern Irish political life, Danny Healy-Rae (brother of Michael who got 100% Irish) has probably one of strongest accents ye hear in public life. People literally make fun about how this guy speaks (of course there's whole class of jokes about Kerrymen been yokels)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeiEO6rv97s

Dubhthach
10-09-2017, 03:54 PM
As a contrast Eamon Ryan who Danny is sparring with above is leader of the Green Party from South county Dublin and has what ye could almost term a posh accent

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewGflBbAh7c

Of course 'Local Dublin' (eg. accent associated with working class) is more akin to how Conor McGregor speaks.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhdXJrGr1iM

I should add personally that I was on a ferry in Greece recently when an Australian asked me where I was from, I said 'Ireland' and he said he didn't think I had an Irish accent and that he thought I was American -- my response was that I have a fairly neutral one.

Nqp15hhu
10-09-2017, 04:54 PM
The Irish Languge is used as a Political tool in Northern Ireland, so not many advocate it.

bobjoe 699
10-09-2017, 05:02 PM
in history Gaelic both Scottish and Irish was popular in the unionist Anglican community

michal3141
10-10-2017, 01:28 PM
My results:

Europe East: 97% (89%-100%)
Low Confidence Regions:
Finland/Northwest Russia: 2% (0%-6%)
Asia Central: 1% (0%-3%)
Scandinavia: <1% (0%-3%)

FionnSneachta
10-17-2017, 08:00 AM
How so? It should be very useful to know the average admixture proportions for each genetic community. However many genetic communities might now still be set up too broadly (like the one for the Southeast Europeans i suppose). Future updates might improve on specificity though.

Would be cool if anyone is willing to screenshot this feature, i'm very curious about it.

I'm able to see the insights page now. The aggregate ethnicity estimate for Connacht is:
47% Ireland
16% Great Britain
11% Europe West
6% Scandinavia
6% Europe East
5% Italy/Greece
3% Iberian Peninsula
1% Caucasus
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
1% European Jewish
2% Other

I don't think that it really reflects the average person from Connacht. I'd say that it's skewed due to people being mixed having this genetic community. I think that this is also verified by the most common marriage places. First was Philadelphia, followed by Virginia and then Germany. I do have relatives that went to Philadelphia in the past. My dad's aunt married an American but his ancestry was from Prussia and their son actually did an Ancestry DNA test and he got the Connacht genetic community. His results would be an example of results that would skew the aggregate. I have no links to Virginia though. I've attached what the entire page looks like.

19321

Jessie
10-17-2017, 08:27 AM
I'm able to see the insights page now. The aggregate ethnicity estimate for Connacht is:
47% Ireland
16% Great Britain
11% Europe West
6% Scandinavia
6% Europe East
5% Italy/Greece
3% Iberian Peninsula
1% Caucasus
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
1% European Jewish
2% Other

I don't think that it really reflects the average person from Connacht. I'd say that it's skewed due to people being mixed having this genetic community. I think that this is also verified by the most common marriage places. First was Philadelphia, followed by Virginia and then Germany. I do have relatives that went to Philadelphia in the past. My dad's aunt married an American but his ancestry was from Prussia and their son actually did an Ancestry DNA test and he got the Connacht genetic community. His results would be an example of results that would skew the aggregate. I have no links to Virginia though. I've attached what the entire page looks like.

19321

I don't have insights yet. So thanks for pointing this out.

Northman
10-17-2017, 08:54 AM
I'm a native Brit from North East England and my recent ancestry is about 50% Scottish and 50% English. My Scottish ancestry is mainly from the North West coast, Lothian regions and boarder regions. My English ancestry is mainly from Northumberland followed by north Yorkshire, Cumbria and some Kent ancestry. My Ancestry admixture is as follows:

British Isles 40%
Irish 26%
Iberian 13%
Scandinavian 9%
Finland/Russian 6%
Western Europe 5%
Eastern Europe 1%

1932219323

Don Felipe
10-17-2017, 08:59 AM
I don't think that it really reflects the average person from Connacht. I'd say that it's skewed due to people being mixed having this genetic community

Many thanks for sharing the screenshot! I agree that regrettably it seems Ancestry has chosen to also include people of mixed origins in their aggregate ethnicity estimates. Would have been so much more informative if they had singled out people with 4 Irish-born grandparents. Given their access to people's familytrees this should be very easy for them i imagine. Oh well perhaps in a later addition...

I happen to have been assigned to a brandnew genetic community myself just the other day, called "Portuguese Islanders". It is actually centered on Cape Verdeans so i do not really appreciate the labeling...However still good news i guess that Ancestry is expanding on this tool. Again many people of mixed background in this community, incl. both Azoreans, Madeirans and both white and black Americans. Right now the insights tab is not available yet. But good to know in advance that the aggregate ethnicity estimates showing up there eventually will not be representative of actual admixture among Cape Verdeans.

https://tracingafricanroots.files.wordpress.com/2017/10/tuga-islander2.png

Jessie
11-04-2017, 08:25 AM
Last one is Jacksepticeye real name Sean McLoughlin who is from the midwest of Ireland. He is from Athlone which is between Co Westmeath and Co Roscommon.

His genetic communities.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2i70k7.png

http://i67.tinypic.com/2yx2id0.png

In case the picture capture isn't large enough he is 62% Ireland, 34% Great Britain and 4% Iberian Peninsula.



This is Jacksepticeye's 23&Me results. Interesting that he scores such a huge amount of British & Irish on this. Jack's ydna is M222.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2hr3ams.jpg

Dubhthach
11-05-2017, 04:20 PM
This is Jacksepticeye's 23&Me results. Interesting that he scores such a huge amount of British & Irish on this. Jack's ydna is M222.

http://i68.tinypic.com/2hr3ams.jpg

Well his figure for 'Ireland' and 'Great Britain' does add up to 96% in ancestry, so not hugely off his figure in 23andme.

With a surname like McLoughlin the M222+ result isn't too surprising!

The question arises though given his origin in Athlone which of the following he might be connected to, if he was S588 I'd go with 'Mac Lochlainn', origin in midlands though might hint at Southern Uí Néill and thus Ó Maoilsheachlainn


Mac LOCHLAINN—V—MacLochlin, MacLoghlin, MacLoughlin, Loughlin, &c, (Loftus); 'son of Lochlainn' (a name of Norse origin); the name of the senior branch of the northern Ui Neill. Before the 13th century, they were the most powerful family in Ulster. They were seated in Inishowen, where the name is still common. A branch of this family settled in Mayo in the 17th century. It would appear that there was also a family of the name in Co. Leitrim, who were followers of the O'Rourkes. This surname is to be distinguished from Ó Maoilsheachlainn (which see), which is now also anglicised MacLoughlin. See Mag Lochlainn.


Ó MAOILSHEACHLAINN—I—O Mulshaghlen, O Melaghlin, (MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, &c., Ó Loughlan, Ó Loughlin); 'descendant of Maolsheachlainn' (servant of St. Secundinus); the name of a once celebrated Meath family, of the race of Niall of the Nine Hostages, who derive their descent from Maelsheachlainn, or Malachy II, King of Ireland, who was dethroned by Brian Boru and died in the year 1022. The clan-name of the O Melaghlins and their co-relatives was Clann Cholmain. Before the Anglo-Norman invasion they were kings of Meath, but after that period their power greatly declined. Meath was granted to Hugh de Lacy, and for many centuries the O Melaghlens were confined to the barony of Clonlonan in Westmeath. They were, however, one of the five Irish families who had the privilege of using English laws. In the reign of James I they were again stripped of a considerable portion of what remained of their ancient patrimony; and so completely had this ancient and once powerful family been ruined by the confiscations of the 17th century that in the attainders of 1691 there appears but one person of the name, Maolseachlin O Melaghlin, of Lough Mask, Co. Mayo. The name is now everywhere disguised under the anglicised forms of MacLaughlin, MacLoughlin, &c

Bobby Martnen
11-14-2017, 03:49 AM
Some older relatives of mine are 15/16 German, 1/16 British Isles. Would they be acceptable sample for the "German" group on your spreadsheet?

murtazasayeed
11-14-2017, 11:09 AM
My results (Afghan)19800

Don Felipe
11-15-2017, 10:26 AM
Some older relatives of mine are 15/16 German, 1/16 British Isles. Would they be acceptable sample for the "German" group on your spreadsheet?

Nice, I would like to see screenshots of their results. If possible please also include their genetic communities. Were they born in America?

Bobby Martnen
11-22-2017, 11:54 PM
Nice, I would like to see screenshots of their results. If possible please also include their genetic communities. Were they born in America?

Yes, they were - they haven't tested yet - they're in their 90s, and I'm trying to talk them into testing

FionnSneachta
12-30-2017, 12:14 PM
My mum's results have come in. She is 98% Irish, 1% Finland/Northwest Russia and <1% Europe East. I was right that the Finnish percentage seems to be coming from my mum's side. There must be some ancestry coming from that part of Europe somewhere. Interestingly my mum matches with someone that we know in town but she didn't know that she was related to. His results have a Scandinavian percentage that isn't put into the trace category and he also has Finland and Europe East as a trace regions. She's been put into the Connacht genetic community and more specifically North Connacht and Galway.

I put her raw data on GEDmatch. I was surprised by her Eurogenes K13 results. I get Irish as my top result at 5.3. My dad gets Irish as his second result at 6.8 with West Scottish coming first at 6.3. My mum gets Irish as her 7th result at 5.6 (which is actually technically higher than my dad's). Her top result is Norwegian at 2.1, Danish at 2.8, North Dutch at 2.9, North German at 4.2, Swedish at 4.3 and Orcadian at 5.5. It's odd how closely she matches with Norway and the fact that I get Irish as my top result while neither of my parents do. As I said in another thread matches come up from that Scandinavian and Eastern Europe region.

Leto
01-14-2018, 05:08 PM
Does anyone have Danish Ancestry results? I wonder what they would show - more Scandinavia or West Europe.

Don Felipe
04-08-2018, 10:55 AM
Does anyone have Danish Ancestry results? I wonder what they would show - more Scandinavia or West Europe.

Possibly one i have seen. But I have no certainty. Atypically (when compared with other Scandinavians) he showed 59% West Europe and only 30% Scandinavia. But again i do not have any details on his family background.

Would be very useful also to see how much "Great Britain" Danish people receive on ANcestry. To determine if it's in any way correlated with Saxon origins.