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technetium
08-04-2017, 11:15 PM
I noticed that many Kurds of Diyarbakir (a town in Southeastern Turkey) look heavily different from other Kurdish communities (like Iraqi Kurds). The phenotype of Kurds of the town of Amida often reminds you of Arabians. Some random pictures of Kurds from Amida/Diyarbakir for the introduction:
17940
Note the man in the yellow shirt, he looks very Arabian (phenotypical):
17941
17942
For comparisson some Iraqi Kurds:
https://www.gannett-cdn.com/-mm-/9188d592676a14b941f98715ba262c325110c846/c=170-80-2644-1940&r=x404&c=534x401/local/-/media/2015/08/21/IAGroup/DesMoines/635757609710879845-O-leary-with-Kurds.jpg
The history of the region was heavily shaped by Arabs after the conquest through Islamic Arab troops. The Armenian Author Aram Ter-Ghewondyan tells in his book "The Arab Emirates in Bagratuni Armenia" about the early history of the region after the Arab conquest.
""[...]
The conquest of Upper Mesopotamia was immediately followed by its settlement with Arab tribes. Lower Mesopotamia called al-Irak by the Arabs, had been filled with nomad Arab groups druing the earlier conquests. As early as the third century, the Lakhm and Tanukh (tribe of princes Mavia) belonging to the southern group had been settled in the Euphrates valley. [...] During the period of expansion of Islam, and the period of the first Arab conquests, the numerous Bakr tribes, and especially its Shaybani sub-group, had greatly assisted the victorious advance of the Caliphate, whereas the Taghlib tribe remained Christian. The wave of conquests moved the Taghlib and Bakr tribes which penetrated into Upper Mesopotamia. The Taghlibi settled in the district of Mosul which was called the Diyar (<<house, land>>) Rabi`a, while the Bakr, especially the Shaybani, turned toward the upper courses of the Tigris and established themselves around Amida [...]. This region was named the Diyar Bakr after Bakr tribe, so that to this day the city of Amida is called Diyarbakir. [now he describes the setllement of Qays-´Aylan to the Diyar Mudar (west Jazira), they came over the Levant]

[B]The local population did not disappear as the result of the settlement of Arab tribes, nor did the Arabs at once form the overhelming majority of the inhabitants, but they clearly became the dominant element. The native population of the Djazira was varied; in addition to the Arabs, it was composed of Syrians, Armenians, Kurds and others. [..] A part of them accepted Islam, but it was the Arabic language which won the biggest victory. Having become the spoken language of Upper Mesopotamia by the end of the ninth century, Arabic even penetrated into Syriac ecclesiastical literature.
[...]
The Diyar Bakr was ruled by the Shaybani tribe, whose Emirs played an important role in the political life not only in the Djazira, but also of Armenia and Azerbaijan. At the time of appearance of Islam, the leader of this warlike tribe, al-Muthanna bin Haritha, already helped the victory of Arab arms in `Irak. Renowned in general for its raiding activity against neighbouring clans, this clan moved up the valley of the Tigris until it reached [the Diyar Bakr]. Beyond this to the north-west began the Upper Mesopotamian military zone in which the district around Diyarbakir was known as the military zone of Diyar Bakr (arb.: al-Tughur al-Bakriyya). [...] The first Shaybani emir to be appointed governor of the [Diyar Bakr] was M`an´s nephew, Yazid bin Mazyad bin Za`ida al-Shaybani, who was twice appointed to this office in the reign of caliph Harun ar-Rashid (786-809). This was an period when the Caliphate was pursuing a harsh policy towards the [region], and was moreover seeking to colonize the country with Arab elements by all possible means. Yakubi testifies that Yazid settled so many Arabs from the Rabi`a tribe (more likely Bakr, i.e. Shaybani) during the first period of his adminstration (787-788), that they formed already a majority of the population."
So historically there would also be a source for this "Arabian" input. I want to point out that this is a book written by a great Armenian author who clearly did not follow any agenda. Since we are on a genetic forum nobody can be convinced without any hard genetic evidence, so I scrolled through my matches list and found a native Kurd of the city of Diyarbakir (actually also named after the main tribe settled in the region). I even emailed him for this purpose and he said he has no known Arab ancestry. I won´t share single population since it does not matter for "mixed" (not mixed in the Western sense) persons. A half Bedouin, half Swedish for example clusters with Romanians, even though it does not actually mean that.
Punt K15:
1 73.2% Iranian + 26.8% Samaritian /they cluster close to Arabians @ 1.84
2 66.9% Iranian + 33.1% Palestinian @ 2.05
3 62.9% Iranian + 37.1% Lebanese @ 2.35
4 66.1% Iranian + 33.9% Druze @ 2.66
5 65.2% Iranian + 34.8% Iraqi_Jew @ 2.7
6 70% Iranian + 30% Jordanian @ 2.8
7 90.3% Kurdish + 9.7% Saudi @ 2.81
8 82% Iranian + 18% Libyan @ 2.82
9 83.4% Kurdish + 16.6% Bedouin_A @ 2.85
10 82.5% Iranian + 17.5% Yemenite_Jew @ 3
11 93.8% Kurdish + 6.2% Bedouin_B @ 3.02
12 84.8% Kurdish + 15.2% Yemenese @ 3.06
13 67.2% Iranian + 32.8% Syrian @ 3.08
14 80.9% Iranian + 19.1% Egyptian @ 3.09
15 74.6% Iranian + 25.4% Cypriot @ 3.19
16 82.6% Azerbaijani + 17.4% Yemenese @ 3.34
17 74.4% Kurdish + 25.6% Syrian @ 3.44
18 73.2% Kurdish + 26.8% Iraqi_Jew @ 3.51
19 70.5% Azerbaijani + 29.5% Syrian @ 3.52
20 68.9% Azerbaijani + 31.1% Iraqi_Jew @ 3.53
-
1 50% Iranian +50% Lebanese @ 3.568561


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Iranian +25% Azerbaijani +25% Jordanian @ 1.841182


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Balkar + Brahui + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.714636
2 North_Ossetian + Brahui + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.793639
3 Kumyk + Brahui + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.822062
4 Iranian + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Jordanian @ 1.841182
5 Kumyk + Balochi + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.861576
6 Balkar + Balochi + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 1.887213
7 Iranian + Iranian + Iranian + Samaritian @ 1.962202
8 Kurdish + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.983058
9 Kurdish + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Syrian @ 2.005360
10 Kurdish + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Jordanian @ 2.018128
11 Kumyk + Makrani + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 2.018311
12 Turk_Kayseri + Iranian + Iranian + Iraqi_Jew @ 2.050856
13 Balkar + Makrani + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 2.052890
14 Iranian + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Palestinian @ 2.074549
15 Iranian + Iranian + Azerbaijani + Iraqi_Jew @ 2.083729
16 Kurdish + Iranian + Iranian + Jordanian @ 2.084569
17 Pashtun + Abkhasian + Assyrian + Bedouin_A @ 2.090754
18 North_Ossetian + Balochi + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 2.099565
19 Turk_Istanbul + Iranian + Iranian + Jordanian @ 2.187220
20 North_Ossetian + Makrani + Samaritian + Samaritian @ 2.191194
-
Punt K13
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
1 Assyrian + Brahui + Ossetian + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.151609
2 Assyrian + Brahui + Dagestan_Azeri + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.287253
3 Pathan + Turkish_Trabzon + Turkish_Trabzon + Yemeni @ 2.327238
4 Assyrian + Assyrian + Assyrian + Pathan @ 2.366588
5 Armenian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Makrani + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.382994
6 Assyrian + Makrani + Ossetian + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.387136
7 Assyrian + Balochi + Ossetian + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.402159
8 Assyrian + Assyrian + Lebanese_Muslim + Pathan @ 2.421738
9 Assyrian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Balochi + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.424316
10 Armenian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Brahui + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.427685
11 Assyrian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Brahui + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.461435
12 Assyrian + Assyrian + Assyrian + Burusho @ 2.471765
13 Armenian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Balochi + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.483931
14 Assyrian + Balochi + Dagestan_Azeri + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.487076
15 Armenian + Brahui + Ossetian + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.496968
16 Armenian + Assyrian + Lebanese_Muslim + Pathan @ 2.510488
17 Assyrian + Assyrian + Lebanese_Druze + Pathan @ 2.512579
18 Armenian + Makrani + Ossetian + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.541237
19 Assyrian + Assyrian + Makrani + Turkish_Kayseri @ 2.541542
20 Assyrian + Azerbaijan_Azeri + Makrani + Samaritan_Jew @ 2.569696
-
Eurogenes K13:
1 Kabardin + Kurdish_Jewish + Makrani + Samaritan @ 2.756146
2 Balochi + Kumyk + Kurdish_Jewish + Samaritan @ 2.805248
3 Brahui + Kumyk + Kurdish_Jewish + Samaritan @ 2.834984
4 Brahui + Kabardin + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian @ 2.938781
5 Balochi + Lebanese_Christian + North_Ossetian + Samaritan @ 2.951040
6 Kabardin + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian + Makrani @ 2.952561
7 Brahui + Lebanese_Christian + North_Ossetian + Samaritan @ 2.968043
8 Georgian_Jewish + Kumyk + Makrani + Samaritan @ 2.971283
9 Balochi + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian + North_Ossetian @ 2.990925
10 Balochi + Kabardin + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.002965
11 Iranian_Jewish + Kabardin + Makrani + Samaritan @ 3.004711
12 Adygei + Brahui + Lebanese_Christian + Syrian @ 3.005422
13 Brahui + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian + North_Ossetian @ 3.034388
14 Balochi + Kumyk + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.051117
15 Adygei + Balochi + Lebanese_Christian + Syrian @ 3.085444
16 Brahui + Chechen + Lebanese_Christian + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.097315
17 Adygei + Kurdish_Jewish + Makrani + Samaritan @ 3.106188
18 Balkar + Kurdish_Jewish + Makrani + Samaritan @ 3.106525
19 Brahui + Kumyk + Kurdish_Jewish + Lebanese_Christian @ 3.116804
20 Brahui + Kabardin + Lebanese_Christian + Samaritan @ 3.132917


Some results of an Arab of the region (not city):
1 59.1% Saudi + 40.9% North_Ossetian @ 2.57
2 64% Palestinian + 36% North_Ossetian @ 2.63
3 63.3% Saudi + 36.7% Lezgin @ 2.73
[...]
Punt K15:
1 51.8% Jordanian + 48.2% North_Ossetian @ 2.08
2 55.5% Syrian + 44.5% North_Ossetian @ 2.38
3 51.2% Kumyk + 48.8% Jordanian @ 2.41
4 56.7% Iraqi_Jew + 43.3% North_Ossetian @ 2.46
5 52.6% Palestinian + 47.4% Kumyk @ 2.5
6 53.7% Iraqi_Jew + 46.3% Kumyk @ 2.52
7 58% Lebanese + 42% Kumyk @ 2.56
8 61% Palestinian + 39% Lezgin @ 2.64
9 61% Lebanese + 39% North_Ossetian @ 2.66
10 52.5% Syrian + 47.5% Kumyk @ 2.75
11 66.1% Lebanese + 33.9% Lezgin @ 2.77
12 55.8% Iraqi_Jew + 44.2% Balkar @ 2.78
13 50.9% Jordanian + 49.1% Balkar @ 2.79
14 54.6% Syrian + 45.4% Balkar @ 2.92
15 62.1% Iraqi_Jew + 37.9% Lezgin @ 3
16 60.2% Lebanese + 39.8% Balkar @ 3.07
17 57.4% Jordanian + 42.6% Lezgin @ 3.11
18 55.8% Palestinian + 44.2% North_Ossetian @ 3.29
19 54.8% Palestinian + 45.2% Balkar @ 3.36
20 57.9% Iraqi_Jew + 42.1% Chechen @ 3.43
-Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% North_Ossetian +50% Jordanian @ 2.241507


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Kumyk +25% Jordanian +25% Druze @ 2.128963


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Lebanese + Jordanian @ 1.648818
2 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Palestinian + Syrian @ 1.741598
3 Lezgin + Iranian + Lebanese + Samaritian @ 1.751592
4 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Lebanese + Syrian @ 1.809079
5 Lezgin + Turk_Istanbul + Jordanian + Jordanian @ 1.844825
6 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Palestinian + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.848294
7 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Palestinian + Jordanian @ 1.859334
8 Lezgin + Armenian + Lebanese + Syrian @ 1.868851
9 Lezgin + Turk_Istanbul + Jordanian + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.881659
10 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Lebanese + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.887975
11 Lezgin + Turk_Kayseri + Armenian + Yemenese @ 1.893796
12 Lezgin + Iranian + Armenian + Yemenite_Jew @ 1.907335
13 Lezgin + Iranian + Syrian + Samaritian @ 1.910073
14 Lezgin + Turk_Istanbul + Syrian + Jordanian @ 1.913054
15 Lezgin + Iranian + Iraqi_Jew + Samaritian @ 1.935769
16 Lezgin + Turk_Istanbul + Lebanese + Jordanian @ 1.942529
17 Lezgin + Armenian + Syrian + Iraqi_Jew @ 1.948768
18 Lezgin + Azerbaijani + Lebanese + Palestinian @ 1.956353
19 Lezgin + Turk_Istanbul + Palestinian + Jordanian @ 1.967705
20 Lezgin + Armenian + Syrian + Syrian @ 2.002892

So my conclusion is that the former majority of the Arab settlers inside the town of Amida was absorbed by more recent comming Kurds into the town. This is also the reason why the origin of many Kurdish families are debated (from modern Kurdish families, to dynasties like the Marwanids). I do not want to offend anyone and I do not want to generalize that every Kurd of Amida is admixed, but some clearly are.

Znertu
08-08-2017, 11:41 AM
Hi, thank you for that post.

Some Kurdish tribes and dynasties indeed claim Arab ancestry. In some cases this is factual, others simply did (or do) so because they wanted to claim a lineage with holy figures (the many, many 'Seyyid' families in the Islamic World), see for example the Safavids, a Persianate Turkic family, who originally traced themselves back to a Kurd named Firruz Shah Zarrin Kolah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firuz-Shah_Zarrin-Kolah), but thereafter had it changed. Another complicating factor is that ethnicity in the Middle East was very often determined purely by paternal descent. A dynasty could claim Arab ancestry after many generations of marriage with the local Kurdish element, whereafter Arab admixture would've become diluted, such as for the Rawadids.

Mentions of Kurds near Amida before the 9th century are indeed scarce, but there's still good reason to assume that there had been tribes there that were at least Iranic, if not 'proto-Kurdish', such as Iranic elements in the kingdom of Sophene. Gordyene also stretched to Amida at times IIRC. See, for instance, The Cultural Landscape of Sophene from Hellenistic to Early Byzantine Times (https://gfa.gbv.de/dr,gfa,017,2014,a,02.pdf).

In any case, you're right in that there must some Arab admixture, however, I'm not sure if this would outweigh that of Assyrian, Armenian and later Turkish ones, since these seem to have shared far more history in the Amida region with Kurds than Arabs did, and the city had been very multiethnic for centuries. From the many genetic results we've seen of Kurds, we don't seem to be that admixed either. The results you posted seem to be of an individual that is indeed mixed, but imo he's an outlier rather than the rule, and it appears to be recent admixture. In any case, does the book specify whether they became the majority in Amida itself or in the whole region? If I'm not mistaken, the Armenians undertook large campaigns to completely erradicate Arab settlers, but I'm not sure whether those also took place in the Amida region.

technetium
08-08-2017, 08:45 PM
Hi, thank you for that post.

Some Kurdish tribes and dynasties indeed claim Arab ancestry. In some cases this is factual, others simply did (or do) so because they wanted to claim a lineage with holy figures (the many, many 'Seyyid' families in the Islamic World), see for example the Safavids, a Persianate Turkic family, who originally traced themselves back to a Kurd named Firruz Shah Zarrin Kolah (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firuz-Shah_Zarrin-Kolah), but thereafter had it changed. Another complicating factor is that ethnicity in the Middle East was very often determined purely by paternal descent. A dynasty could claim Arab ancestry after many generations of marriage with the local Kurdish element, whereafter Arab admixture would've become diluted, such as for the Rawadids.

Mentions of Kurds near Amida before the 9th century are indeed scarce, but there's still good reason to assume that there had been tribes there that were at least Iranic, if not 'proto-Kurdish', such as Iranic elements in the kingdom of Sophene. Gordyene also stretched to Amida at times IIRC. See, for instance, The Cultural Landscape of Sophene from Hellenistic to Early Byzantine Times (https://gfa.gbv.de/dr,gfa,017,2014,a,02.pdf).

In any case, you're right in that there must some Arab admixture, however, I'm not sure if this would outweigh that of Assyrian, Armenian and later Turkish ones, since these seem to have shared far more history in the Amida region with Kurds than Arabs did, and the city had been very multiethnic for centuries. From the many genetic results we've seen of Kurds, we don't seem to be that admixed either. The results you posted seem to be of an individual that is indeed mixed, but imo he's an outlier rather than the rule, and it appears to be recent admixture. In any case, does the book specify whether they became the majority in Amida itself or in the whole region? If I'm not mistaken, the Armenians undertook large campaigns to completely erradicate Arab settlers, but I'm not sure whether those also took place in the Amida region.
Hello,
Yes, indeed there are many Kurds claiming Arab ancestry. I have a good example from the province of Muş which is even Northeast from the Diyarbakir province. Here is a table made by a local: the yellow column shows the Turkish village name, the orange column shows the "native" name (Arabic or Kurdish in this case), the light green column the language of the village and the darker green column shows the tribe (family). So, the tribe in this list called "Bekiri" is appearently the Banu Bakr ibn Wa`il tribe. Another user asked what the origins of that tribe are and the local said that these originate from the region between Basra (South Mesopotamia) and the Hejaz (West Arabia). So there is no doubt that this "Bekiri" tribe is the Bakr tribe. The interesting thing is that non of these Bekiris speaks Arabic anymore, but still they know of their ancesty. I want to note that this is the case in the province of Muş. There are still Arabs from the region who speak Arabic and are from the tribe.
18028

Yes, the Kurds were not the big majority as it is seen nowadays. Population exchanges between the Ottomans and Persians occured which also made an influence on the population shift. But up until the early 20th century the region of Northmesopotamia was sparesly populated. But even then the most Kurds were pastoralists and only came during the Summer months and even payed taxes to the local Arabs (as you might know there are still Arabs who also speak Arabic and live in the same region).


In any case, you're right in that there must some Arab admixture, however, I'm not sure if this would outweigh that of Assyrian, Armenian and later Turkish ones, since these seem to have shared far more history in the Amida region with Kurds than Arabs did, and the city had been very multiethnic for centuries. From the many genetic results we've seen of Kurds, we don't seem to be that admixed either. The results you posted seem to be of an individual that is indeed mixed, but imo he's an outlier rather than the rule, and it appears to be recent admixture. In any case, does the book specify whether they became the majority in Amida itself or in the whole region? If I'm not mistaken, the Armenians undertook large campaigns to completely erradicate Arab settlers, but I'm not sure whether those also took place in the Amida region.
Yes other influences might also have played a big role. I also think that for example the Aq Qoyunlu Turkics went over to the Kurds (or got Kurds). There are even Kurds claiming that and East Asian haplogroups are existant in Kurds. I want to clarify this: I meant this "Arab shift" in Kurds from the town of Amida (or Diyarbakir) and likely also Silvan (arb.: Mayyarfarqin). Obviously there won´t be Arab admixture in a Kurd from Dersim, however they are more admixed with Armenians.
The book itself does say that the Arabs made up the majority of the population in the Diyar Bakr region (not to be confused with the modernday town of Diyarbakir/Amida) during the first period of the governor Yazid bin Mazyad bin Za`ida al-Shaybani and this was 787-788. Still this Kurd (whose results I posted) is from the town of Diyarbakir/Amida meaning these settlements also affected the city of Diyarbakir/Amida.

The Bagratid Armenians were not fond about the Arabs, but I have some family trees of some different Arab tribal dynasties of the region who even married Armenian princesses. However the Armenians were not successfull in eradicating the Arab settlers. The famous dynasty of Isa ibn al-Shaykh al-Shaybani, an Emir of the Diyar Bakr, marched with an army of 14000 men against the united Armenian princes and they capitulated without a fight. So the Armenians were not successfull. Also the region of Diyar Bakr was not part of Armenia. The region of Diyar Bakr was conquered through the Armenians just shortly before it was conquered by the Arabs, so it is not their native home.
Here is a picture of an Anatolian Arab frontier warrior during the Abbasid period, so exactly the period of the book. I just wanted to share it.
18029

Znertu
08-09-2017, 01:43 PM
I'll answer in full later today, but you haven't been frank. Where you cut off your quotes, the source twice gives more relevant information. Also, it never outright states that Arabs ever were the majority in Diyar Bakir; you replaced Armenia with Diyar Bakir.

P. 26:
"The local population did not disappear as the result of the settlement of Arab tribes, nor did the Arabs at once form the overhelming majority of the inhabitants, but they clearly became the dominant element. The native population of the Djazira was varied; in addition to the Arabs, it was composed of Syrians, Armenians, Kurds and others. The Arabization of the Syrian natives helped strengthen the Arab component. A part of them accepted Islam, but it was the Arabic language which won the biggest victory. Having become the spoken language of Upper Mesopotamia by the end of the ninth century, Arabic even penetrated into Syriac ecclesiastical literature."

P. 27:
"The first Shaybani emir to be appointed governor of Arminiya was Ma'n's nephew, Yazid b. Mazyad b. Za'ida al-Shaybani, who was twice appointed to this office in the reign of the Caliph Harun al-Rashid (786-809). This was a period when the Caliphate was pursuing a harsh policy toward Armenia, and was moreover seeking to colonize the country with Arab elements by all possible means. Ya'kubi testifies that Yazid settled so many Arabs from the Rabi'a tribe (more likely Bakr, i.e. Shaybani) in Arminiya[You inserted 'Diyar Bakir' here] during the first period of his administration (787-788), that they already formed a majority of the population. These colonies were probably established not so much in Armenia as in Shirwan, where Yazid's successors established their hereditary principality in the ninth century. According to the kat'olikos John Drasxanakertc'i, Yazid displayed a harsh behaviour toward Armenia, even robbing the ecclesiastical vessels of the monasteries. The Arab sources likewise bear witness to his harshness."

technetium
08-09-2017, 04:34 PM
I'll answer in full later today, but you haven't been frank. Where you cut off your quotes, the source twice gives more relevant information. Also, it never outright states that Arabs ever were the majority in Diyar Bakir; you replaced Armenia with Diyar Bakir.

P. 26:
"The local population did not disappear as the result of the settlement of Arab tribes, nor did the Arabs at once form the overhelming majority of the inhabitants, but they clearly became the dominant element. The native population of the Djazira was varied; in addition to the Arabs, it was composed of Syrians, Armenians, Kurds and others. The Arabization of the Syrian natives helped strengthen the Arab component. A part of them accepted Islam, but it was the Arabic language which won the biggest victory. Having become the spoken language of Upper Mesopotamia by the end of the ninth century, Arabic even penetrated into Syriac ecclesiastical literature."

P. 27:
"The first Shaybani emir to be appointed governor of Arminiya was Ma'n's nephew, Yazid b. Mazyad b. Za'ida al-Shaybani, who was twice appointed to this office in the reign of the Caliph Harun al-Rashid (786-809). This was a period when the Caliphate was pursuing a harsh policy toward Armenia, and was moreover seeking to colonize the country with Arab elements by all possible means. Ya'kubi testifies that Yazid settled so many Arabs from the Rabi'a tribe (more likely Bakr, i.e. Shaybani) in Arminiya[You inserted 'Diyar Bakir' here] during the first period of his administration (787-788), that they already formed a majority of the population. These colonies were probably established not so much in Armenia as in Shirwan, where Yazid's successors established their hereditary principality in the ninth century. According to the kat'olikos John Drasxanakertc'i, Yazid displayed a harsh behaviour toward Armenia, even robbing the ecclesiastical vessels of the monasteries. The Arab sources likewise bear witness to his harshness."
Read the complete chapter. I put Diyar Bakr in the brackets since it is not written in there (thats why it is in such [] brackets). Obviously I cannot type up the complete passage to proof my point, but he clearly speaks about Aljnik (around Amida) and the other region. He tells in the complete passage of the Shayban tribe was more native to Diyar Bakr than to Armenia. They started their raids from Diyar Bakr and all the Shaybani Ostikans stemmed from there. Aljnik the region around Amida counted to Armenia since it was conquered by the Armenians prior.

technetium
08-09-2017, 04:47 PM
To the thing with arabized Syrians: how do they matter? The results of a Kurd from Amida are posted above. I do not see Assyrian or similar. The man's result clearly follow a structure (Iranian+Arabian and not Iranian + South Caucasian (which would be typical Kurdish btw.)). If this Assyrian would play a role then his results would have not been that much different from other Kurds.

technetium
08-09-2017, 05:10 PM
-------

Znertu
08-09-2017, 10:17 PM
Read the complete chapter. I put Diyar Bakr in the brackets since it is not written in there (thats why it is in such [] brackets). Obviously I cannot type up the complete passage to proof my point, but he clearly speaks about Aljnik (around Amida) and the other region. He tells in the complete passage of the Shayban tribe was more native to Diyar Bakr than to Armenia. They started their raids from Diyar Bakr and all the Shaybani Ostikans stemmed from there. Aljnik the region around Amida counted to Armenia since it was conquered by the Armenians prior.

But you changed his sentence. He indeed speaks of such presence and settlements, but you made it seem like the author implied that the Amed region had an Arab majority, but the author rather seems to point to Shirvan, as seen in the full quote above.


To the thing with arabized Syrians: how do they matter? The results of a Kurd from Amida are posted above. I do not see Assyrian or similar. The man's result clearly follow a structure (Iranian+Arabian and not Iranian + South Caucasian (which would be typical Kurdish btw.)). If this Assyrian would play a role then his results would have not been that much different from other Kurds.

It matters because part of the supposed 'Arab' ancestry would then be Assyrian.

The major gripe I have is that this is just one case. You mentioned that you believed only a part of Amed Kurds would be Arab admixed, but out of this single one we can't say if it's a common admixture in that tribe and perhaps multiple ones, or just an individual who unknowingly has recent Arab ancestry. Also, you'd preferably also need some historical sources confirming continuity with the Bakr tribe. There's uncountable tribes, and throughout history, they branched off, merged, were artificially created etc. It's possible but not certain.


Yes, indeed there are many Kurds claiming Arab ancestry. I have a good example from the province of Muş which is even Northeast from the Diyarbakir province. Here is a table made by a local: the yellow column shows the Turkish village name, the orange column shows the "native" name (Arabic or Kurdish in this case), the light green column the language of the village and the darker green column shows the tribe (family). So, the tribe in this list called "Bekiri" is appearently the Banu Bakr ibn Wa`il tribe. Another user asked what the origins of that tribe are and the local said that these originate from the region between Basra (South Mesopotamia) and the Hejaz (West Arabia). So there is no doubt that this "Bekiri" tribe is the Bakr tribe. The interesting thing is that non of these Bekiris speaks Arabic anymore, but still they know of their ancesty. I want to note that this is the case in the province of Muş. There are still Arabs from the region who speak Arabic and are from the tribe.
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Yes, the Kurds were not the big majority as it is seen nowadays. Population exchanges between the Ottomans and Persians occured which also made an influence on the population shift. But up until the early 20th century the region of Northmesopotamia was sparesly populated. But even then the most Kurds were pastoralists and only came during the Summer months and even payed taxes to the local Arabs (as you might know there are still Arabs who also speak Arabic and live in the same region).


Yes other influences might also have played a big role. I also think that for example the Aq Qoyunlu Turkics went over to the Kurds (or got Kurds). There are even Kurds claiming that and East Asian haplogroups are existant in Kurds. I want to clarify this: I meant this "Arab shift" in Kurds from the town of Amida (or Diyarbakir) and likely also Silvan (arb.: Mayyarfarqin). Obviously there won´t be Arab admixture in a Kurd from Dersim, however they are more admixed with Armenians.
The book itself does say that the Arabs made up the majority of the population in the Diyar Bakr region (not to be confused with the modernday town of Diyarbakir/Amida) during the first period of the governor Yazid bin Mazyad bin Za`ida al-Shaybani and this was 787-788. Still this Kurd (whose results I posted) is from the town of Diyarbakir/Amida meaning these settlements also affected the city of Diyarbakir/Amida.

The Bagratid Armenians were not fond about the Arabs, but I have some family trees of some different Arab tribal dynasties of the region who even married Armenian princesses. However the Armenians were not successfull in eradicating the Arab settlers. The famous dynasty of Isa ibn al-Shaykh al-Shaybani, an Emir of the Diyar Bakr, marched with an army of 14000 men against the united Armenian princes and they capitulated without a fight. So the Armenians were not successfull. Also the region of Diyar Bakr was not part of Armenia. The region of Diyar Bakr was conquered through the Armenians just shortly before it was conquered by the Arabs, so it is not their native home.
Here is a picture of an Anatolian Arab frontier warrior during the Abbasid period, so exactly the period of the book. I just wanted to share it.

Now for some history.

As I showed in the source about Sophene earlier, the region had already had Iranic elements, next to Assyrian and Armenian ones. It's quite rich that you state Armenians not to be natives, Tigranokert, their old capital, was located near present-day Silvan, and they had already had a long presence before the Arabs arrived.

For the presence of Kurds in Northern Mesopotamia, the earliest sources (Syriac, Persian, Arabic), concerning the 3rd-7th centuries, place Kurds in the Mosul area, Shahrizor, Hulwan, regions south of Van, Azerbaijan, Arran, Fars, Jibal, Ahvaz, Azat River... There's some disagreement to what extent some of these Kurds, particularly those in Fars, constituted Kurds as we understand them today. There's in any case good continuity with earlier Iranic tribes which likely received the label 'Kurd' (Kurtians, Mardians, perhaps Gordyeans and others), and the later Kurds in those regions.

That's not to say that Kurds directly were the majority in all those regions. In Fars, they resided in certain 'Zom al-Akrad' (Encampments of the Kurds), with their own limitied territorial extent. In Ahwaz, I noted that Kurds were often mentioned as fighting together with Persians against the Arabs (7th c.), while in the Jibal/Media province they seemed to constitute a more dominant element (but not necessarily majority, the rayyat might have held another identity), with a similar case in Azerbaijan. In Northern Mesopotamia, the Syriac sources, describing pre-Islamic times, mention a Kurdish presence in pretty much all the regions that are today South Kurdistan, like Beth Nohadra (Dohuk), Irbil, Shahrizor..., and some of them were converted by the Assyrians. One notable region was the Beth Kartawaye (Lands of the Kurds), south of Lake Van (not too far from Amida), almost certainly majority Kurdish, as well as Shahrizor.

There's many cases of revolts of the Kurds in the 8th and 9th centuries, but their first demonstrably dynasties formed in the 10th/11th centuries. However, since then, they had practically never been ruled by Arabs, until the modern period. Almost all the dynasties that followed, be it local (vassals) or grand, were Kurdish or Turkish. They took over the military roles in much of the Middle East. Kurds certainly weren't limited to the role of pastoralists paying taxes to the Arabs until the 20th century, it was very often the other way around. And if one looks at Northern Mesopotamia, Kurds were the biggest group, even before WWI (though that depends entirely on how one defines Northern Mesopotamia).

That's also why I believe the individual to be an outlier, I simply didn't encounter much in historic sources on an significant presence of Arabs in the region of Amed after that time period (11th c.), and thus don't believe there would be more Arab admixture than that of other ethnicities. Is there some? Sure. But the main concentration of Arabs bordering Kurds in the past millenium should be sought further east.

jesus
08-09-2017, 10:25 PM
Proto Kurds probably lived in that region since Median times.

technetium
08-10-2017, 08:45 PM
It matters because part of the supposed 'Arab' ancestry would then be Assyrian.
No, this is what I explained prior. Assyrians are not clustering with Arabians. You might think that both are considered "Semitic", however genetically Assyrians are basically South Caucasians who cluster close to Armenians and even Kurds. Here look at this PCA:
18058

The major gripe I have is that this is just one case. You mentioned that you believed only a part of Amed Kurds would be Arab admixed, but out of this single one we can't say if it's a common admixture in that tribe and perhaps multiple ones, or just an individual who unknowingly has recent Arab ancestry. Also, you'd preferably also need some historical sources confirming continuity with the Bakr tribe. There's uncountable tribes, and throughout history, they branched off, merged, were artificially created etc. It's possible but not certain.
I do not care about what Kurds identify and I won´t be the guy who will change it. I made the example with the Bekiris and basically they know that this tribe named the town of Diyarbakir and that its origins are Arab, but nothing more (they do not claim this for prestige or oral tradition). They know about their origins up until modern-days, so somebody listening to you could assume that the Bakr tribe was just swallowed away by the ground which is completely untrue. I am also sure that they (for example the Bekiris of Mus) switched to the Kurdish language recently (a few centuries ago) because side branches of them are still speaking Arabic.

Almost all the dynasties that followed, be it local (vassals) or grand, were Kurdish or Turkish. They took over the military roles in much of the Middle East. Kurds certainly weren't limited to the role of pastoralists paying taxes to the Arabs until the 20th century, it was very often the other way around. And if one looks at Northern Mesopotamia, Kurds were the biggest group, even before WWI (though that depends entirely on how one defines Northern Mesopotamia).

That's also why I believe the individual to be an outlier, I simply didn't encounter much in historic sources on an significant presence of Arabs in the region of Amed after that time period (11th c.), and thus don't believe there would be more Arab admixture than that of other ethnicities. Is there some? Sure. But the main concentration of Arabs bordering Kurds in the past millenium should be sought further east.
The Marwanids followed. Their ancestry is also highly discussed, some say they were Arabs others say they were Kurds. The Ayyubids followed and they also were a culturally Arab state and had basically nothing to do with Kurds. The Aq Qoyunlu Turkics also were a famous state of the region and basically the complete adminstration of that state was Arabic/Arab (no Kurds or similar). You are clearly underestimating the influence of the Arabs in the region. I do not believe that this man is an outlier since my speculations started with the different looks of many Kurds of Amida compared to Iraqi Kurds (look at the pictures and now tell me they look same, they do not).

Anyway, I think there is no point in discussing around. What I had to say is said and the results are above.

technetium
08-10-2017, 08:51 PM
Proto Kurds probably lived in that region since Median times.
And? The sun is hot :D

Znertu
08-10-2017, 11:15 PM
No, this is what I explained prior. Assyrians are not clustering with Arabians. You might think that both are considered "Semitic", however genetically Assyrians are basically South Caucasians who cluster close to Armenians and even Kurds. Here look at this PCA:
18058

I do not care about what Kurds identify and I won´t be the guy who will change it. I made the example with the Bekiris and basically they know that this tribe named the town of Diyarbakir and that its origins are Arab, but nothing more (they do not claim this for prestige or oral tradition). They know about their origins up until modern-days, so somebody listening to you could assume that the Bakr tribe was just swallowed away by the ground which is completely untrue. I am also sure that they (for example the Bekiris of Mus) switched to the Kurdish language recently (a few centuries ago) because side branches of them are still speaking Arabic.

Fair enough. Still needs more samples though.


The Marwanids followed. Their ancestry is also highly discussed, some say they were Arabs others say they were Kurds. The Ayyubids followed and they also were a culturally Arab state and had basically nothing to do with Kurds. The Aq Qoyunlu Turkics also were a famous state of the region and basically the complete adminstration of that state was Arabic/Arab (no Kurds or similar). You are clearly underestimating the influence of the Arabs in the region.

No, the Marwanids rose under Badh the Kurd, a member of the Humaydi Kurds. The reason some think these Marwanids were Arab is because they confuse them with the Arab Marwanids of the Umayyads. The Ayyubids had many ties to the Kurdish and Iranic world, and the Ayyubid army's elite consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, certain Kurds were some of Saladin's closest allies, Kurdish quarters in cities, Kurdish governors all throughout the Levant, significant Kurdish presence in the madrasahs etc. And the Turkic Aq Qoyunlu were Persianate, not Arabophone, and notable families were often rather Iranian than Arab. Amed and Mardin had governors from the leading Turkic family, yet the towns around Amed were held by Kurdish tribes. Chermik, Hazro, Egil, Hasankeyf, Mayyafariqin (Silvan) were held by Zraqi, Mardasi, Suleymani and Ayyubid Kurds. Amed moreover became the administrative center for the Kurdish regions with far-reaching autonomy under the Ottomans, though its governor was appointed.

Therefore, I don't believe I'm underestimating the Arabs in the region, they had a far more significant presence further west and east.


I do not believe that this man is an outlier since my speculations started with the different looks of many Kurds of Amida compared to Iraqi Kurds (look at the pictures and now tell me they look same, they do not).

Anyway, I think there is no point in discussing around. What I had to say is said and the results are above.

Phenotypes are tricky, at times one sees what they want to see. Besides, the phenotypes in many Kurdish regions differ, this isn't unusual, but Amed Kurds don't look more Arab to me.

technetium
08-14-2017, 08:47 AM
Fair enough. Still needs more samples though.



No, the Marwanids rose under Badh the Kurd, a member of the Humaydi Kurds. The reason some think these Marwanids were Arab is because they confuse them with the Arab Marwanids of the Umayyads. The Ayyubids had many ties to the Kurdish and Iranic world, and the Ayyubid army's elite consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, certain Kurds were some of Saladin's closest allies, Kurdish quarters in cities, Kurdish governors all throughout the Levant, significant Kurdish presence in the madrasahs etc. And the Turkic Aq Qoyunlu were Persianate, not Arabophone, and notable families were often rather Iranian than Arab. Amed and Mardin had governors from the leading Turkic family, yet the towns around Amed were held by Kurdish tribes. Chermik, Hazro, Egil, Hasankeyf, Mayyafariqin (Silvan) were held by Zraqi, Mardasi, Suleymani and Ayyubid Kurds. Amed moreover became the administrative center for the Kurdish regions with far-reaching autonomy under the Ottomans, though its governor was appointed.

Therefore, I don't believe I'm underestimating the Arabs in the region, they had a far more significant presence further west and east.



Phenotypes are tricky, at times one sees what they want to see. Besides, the phenotypes in many Kurdish regions differ, this isn't unusual, but Amed Kurds don't look more Arab to me.
You make claims without any evidence. I did never claim that the Aq Qoyunlu were Arabs, nor Arab leaning (even though there would be some examples for that like the architecture). I said that the adminstration of the state was mostly Arab and sat inside of the town of Mardin. There were no illiterate Kurdish shepherds in the adminstration. The claim with the Ayyubids is not true and if you believe they were Kurdish/Iranic orientated then believe it. The Ayyubids even recruited out of the local Arab tribals, but I cannot currently post the book passages. Anyway, the actual topic was something else.

Znertu
08-14-2017, 02:01 PM
You make claims without any evidence. I did never claim that the Aq Qoyunlu were Arabs, nor Arab leaning (even though there would be some examples for that like the architecture). I said that the adminstration of the state was mostly Arab and sat inside of the town of Mardin. There were no illiterate Kurdish shepherds in the adminstration. The claim with the Ayyubids is not true and if you believe they were Kurdish/Iranic orientated then believe it. The Ayyubids even recruited out of the local Arab tribals, but I cannot currently post the book passages. Anyway, the actual topic was something else.

I didn't say you said they were Arabs. Arab and Arabophone aren't the same. Many Turkic dynasties were Persianate, Persian was their court language and they held Persian/Iranic culture in high regard, just as the Aqqoyunlu. The Iranic influence among the Aqqoyunlu was far greater than that of the Arabs. However, if you say there were Arab administrators, fair enough (then again; genuine Arabs or Arabified Assyrians?).

I said the Ayyubids' elite, its cavalry, consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, this is not a contested claim. Zarzari, Hakkari, Humaydi, Shahrazuri, Qaymari, Adawi were some of the prominent Kurdish tribes and communities. Some of the Ayyubids bore Iranic names, one of the members of the dynasty made a translation of the Shahnameh, the madrasas of the Levant saw a great influx of Kurdish scholars, Kurds served as qadis... Most of the governors in the Ayyubid empire were Kurds and Turks; next to the Ayyubids themselves (who governed many cities), Baalbek, Shayzar, Latakia, Hama etc. were governed by Kurds from other tribes. Under the Ayyubids there's also clear instances of Kurdish ethnic identity and solidarity.

No doubt the empire as a whole was multiethnic and Islam was most important, but there's no doubt that the Kurdish influence was very strong. If you want to learn, read: Saladin et les Kurdes (https://www.academia.edu/4352513/Etudes_Kurdes_Hs_2._Saladin_et_les_Kurdes)

And it's certainly relevant to the topic. All you did was post the genetic results of a single person, some cherry-picked photos of Amed Kurds looking 'Arab', and an example of a tribe that's probably Arab-descended, complemented by falsified quotes and historical half-truths, in order to elevate the Arab influence in the region. Yes, there was and is an Arab presence, but there's nothing indicating that Amed Kurds as a whole have more than a sliver of Arab ancestry, and certainly not that it'd be any more than that of Armenians, Assyrians and Turks. There's also no reason to generalize the Kurds (certainly not as late as the 14th century) as mere illiterate shepherds.

Eetion
08-15-2017, 08:48 PM
At least, I know some Kurds who accept that they were Arabs but Kurdificated.

technetium
08-16-2017, 07:24 PM
At least, I know some Kurds who accept that they were Arabs but Kurdificated.
Yes, that is true. I made the example with the Bekiri tribe which nowadays speak Kurdish, but they still know of the origins of their tribe. Side branches of them still speak Arabic.

I have some more potential candidates who show an Arab shift from Eastern Turkey. However I am currently literally in the valleys of the Diyar Bakr and am unable to inform myself what their backgrounds are.

technetium
08-16-2017, 08:23 PM
I didn't say you said they were Arabs. Arab and Arabophone aren't the same. Many Turkic dynasties were Persianate, Persian was their court language and they held Persian/Iranic culture in high regard, just as the Aqqoyunlu. The Iranic influence among the Aqqoyunlu was far greater than that of the Arabs. However, if you say there were Arab administrators, fair enough (then again; genuine Arabs or Arabified Assyrians?).

I said the Ayyubids' elite, its cavalry, consisted almost solely of Kurds and Turks, this is not a contested claim. Zarzari, Hakkari, Humaydi, Shahrazuri, Qaymari, Adawi were some of the prominent Kurdish tribes and communities. Some of the Ayyubids bore Iranic names, one of the members of the dynasty made a translation of the Shahnameh, the madrasas of the Levant saw a great influx of Kurdish scholars, Kurds served as qadis... Most of the governors in the Ayyubid empire were Kurds and Turks; next to the Ayyubids themselves (who governed many cities), Baalbek, Shayzar, Latakia, Hama etc. were governed by Kurds from other tribes. Under the Ayyubids there's also clear instances of Kurdish ethnic identity and solidarity.

No doubt the empire as a whole was multiethnic and Islam was most important, but there's no doubt that the Kurdish influence was very strong. If you want to learn, read: Saladin et les Kurdes (https://www.academia.edu/4352513/Etudes_Kurdes_Hs_2._Saladin_et_les_Kurdes)

And it's certainly relevant to the topic. All you did was post the genetic results of a single person, some cherry-picked photos of Amed Kurds looking 'Arab', and an example of a tribe that's probably Arab-descended, complemented by falsified quotes and historical half-truths, in order to elevate the Arab influence in the region. Yes, there was and is an Arab presence, but there's nothing indicating that Amed Kurds as a whole have more than a sliver of Arab ancestry, and certainly not that it'd be any more than that of Armenians, Assyrians and Turks. There's also no reason to generalize the Kurds (certainly not as late as the 14th century) as mere illiterate shepherds.
You take this too emotional and personal as that I would want to discuss this further. The Arab Adminstrators of the Aq Qoyunlu were descendants of the Arab settlers there. However the reason you mention this is obvious. What do you want to tell me with your "way more Iranic influence"? Then why did the Aq Qoyunlu not take the Kurdish educated upper class who according to you was always the majority and at the same time from the cultural spectrum (Iranic) the Aq Qoyunlu "loved so much"? Maybe because they were just pastoralists who marched according the seasons with their sheep through the region. Anyway, I do not want to discuss this further. All buildings built by the Aq Qoyunlu were nearly the same as the previous Arab Abbasid architecture of the region.

Also I am currently not able to write replies where I answer to all of your mentioned things.