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epp
08-05-2017, 10:23 AM
LEGEND

Russian Mal’ta boy’s yDNA-R descendants all hung around the Steppe for 20,000 years until they burst out from their Steppe cradle in the 3rd millennium BC, nobly conquering everyone else and triumphantly spreading their magical proto-IE language across the world.

ACTUALITY

yDNA-R1b was all over the place long before 3,000 BC, including archaeological samples in Spain 5,200 BC (Le Troc) and Italy 12,000 BC (Villabruna).

R1b’s first subclades are in West Central Africa, Germany, China, India and Italy (M335), and Turkey and Bahrain (PH200).

The earliest branching of West European R1b’s brother clade M73 arose at an estimated 11,300 BC between a basal M73* West of the Rhine and its subclade M478 in Ukraine.

The closest archaeological ancestor to a pre-L51 R1b-P297 (i.e. pre-4,200 BC L51 origin point, per yfull) is R1b1a1 L389, a 14,000 ybp sample found in Italy. The modern distribution of rare L389xP297 is Bulgaria to Puerto Rico.

The first sample showing R1b going anywhere near the Steppe was a more distant ancestor of L51 (R1b1a) than the Italian sample, and was in any case only on the Balkan border with Romania (Vasilevka) 7,200BC.

The first Steppe samples of R1b-P297 are dated to around 3,000 BC - very similar to the dates of the first R1b-P297 samples found in West European Bell Beaker.

If ever there were an Indo-European “Aryan Superman” of the Steppe with R1b1a* or P297* or L23*, he appears to have died out completely, to be replaced by a man with Baltic R1a-M417. Perhaps the Steppe got a bit too chilly for him ...

TigerMW
08-05-2017, 05:44 PM
We have a lot of R1b-V88 in Africa that I believe is Chadic speaking or at least non-IE of some type.

This proposed "legend" is a non-starter. It is a straw-man proposal which is a logical fallacy.

Why not propose a more specific hypothesis, perhaps relating to L23 and on down or maybe M269 and on down?

I think we can skip the magical and other subjective terminology

Romilius
08-06-2017, 05:08 AM
Another annoying thread about supposed R1b inferiority and R1a superiority. I think I will write a book about this... surely people like epp (a lot, indeed) will make me very rich buying my new book full of bizarre claims.

epp
08-06-2017, 10:26 AM
We have a lot of R1b-V88 in Africa that I believe is Chadic speaking or at least non-IE of some type.

This proposed "legend" is a non-starter. It is a straw-man proposal which is a logical fallacy.

Why not propose a more specific hypothesis, perhaps relating to L23 and on down or maybe M269 and on down?

I think we can skip the magical and other subjective terminology
This is what happens when someone proposes a specific hypothesis on this forum - they are called bizarre and their posts are called crap and bullshit (which usually elicits a "thank you for this useful post" from other people), what they hypothesise is ignored and the subject matter of the thread is diverted and derailed by people with pedantic agendas constantly repeating the words "Indo-European" and "Steppe DNA" ad nauseam until the thread is shut down.

This thread itself is a prime example. Everyone has focused on the "legend" and ignored the "actuality", claims are described as "bizarre" and people show their

epp
08-06-2017, 10:30 AM
Another annoying thread about supposed R1b inferiority and R1a superiority.
Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!

Ryukendo
08-06-2017, 11:06 AM
Which superman haplogroup is the toughest - R1a or R1b? And which SNP mutation spoke Indo-European first? There's only one way for us to find out ... fight!

This is so damned funny I'm gonna use this in my signature. :rofl:

R.Rocca
08-06-2017, 11:16 AM
This is so damned funny I'm gonna use this in my signature. :rofl:

I will too. It is the classic definition of the word "trolling".

Administrator
08-06-2017, 05:27 PM
[ADMIN]

Problem: Thread's premise is a strawman (no "legend" of R carriers spreading their Eurasian seed all over the place at 3k B.C. has ever been promulgated in this forum).

Section breeches:



3.10 Certain standards of quality control will be enforced to ensure a productive forum atmosphere. Invectives and posts devoid of substance (e.g. threads or replies consisting solely of inflammatory content or triviality) will be considered junk postings and deleted. Breeches in basic forum etiquette include (and are not limited to) cross-posting different threads, consecutive posting in existing threads and reviving old threads whose course of discussion has long since expired ("necro-bumping").


Action: Thread closed. There are already several older threads discussing the nature of Y-DNA R subclades linked to non-IE populations. Please continue the discussion in those.

Thanks for your cooperation.