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MitchellSince1893
08-06-2017, 04:28 PM
Baskirs: a Turkic people indigenous to Bashkortostan, extending on both sides of the Ural Mountains, in the area where Eastern Europe meets North Asia. Groups of Bashkirs also live in the Republic of Tatarstan, Perm Krai, Chelyabinsk, Orenburg, Tyumen, Sverdlovsk, Kurgan Oblasts and other regions of Russia, as well as in Kazakhstan and other countries.

Back when discovered in the Myres et al study in 2011, U152 in the Baskir was a real oddity as it was located thousands of miles to the east of the majority of U152 in Western and Central Europe. The study didn't identify any U152 subclades.

I remember reading a few years ago that U152 in the Baskir people was generally written off as a relatively recent event...due to a founder effect

the loss of genetic variation that occurs when a new population is established by a very small number of individuals from a larger population.

Although I did note a similarity in the frequency of red hair maps in Europe and the location of Baskir territory I let it go and moved on.

But I just noticed that in this FTDNA project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/peoples/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are two U152+ men.
312692 Salagush-Baylar Tatar Gubaydulla(XVII), Azalak at., Salagush-Baylar clan Russian Federation R-Z145
209974 Baylar Bashkir Nagim(XIX), Kama river, Bashkortostan, Baylar clan Russian Federation R-L2

Z145 is not a subclade of U152>L2. Rather it's a subclade of U152>Z56. L2 and Z56's shared ancestor probably lived 4500 to 5000 years ago, so a single source recent founder effect cannot explain U152 in the Baskir.

The simple answer is that there was more than one recent event U152 founder....which will make this a really short thread.

I also read one post about the possibility that U152 in the Baskir was introduced by the Goths

Then I found this Bahadir’s (not any idea who he is but seems a Turkish speaker) comment with a Google translation ”(They found) in the tribe Gaina, who lives in the Perm region of Russia "Western European" subclade R1b-U152. This tribe before the migration to the South Urals (8-9 century) and the occurrence of the Bashkirs lived in the steppes near the Black and Azov Seas. Presumably, Gaina tribe - the descendants of the Goths. This is indicated by the name of the tribe "Gaina".This ethnonym was distributed among the Goths. So famous Gothic commander Gainas, who lived in the 5th century AD.

So, could this Bashkir U152 have a Gothic origin?http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html

Obviously there are plenty of explanations of how U152 could have ended up in Baskir men, but I am wondering if the fact that Z56 and L2 have been found in them merits a 2nd look.

rms2
08-06-2017, 04:57 PM
I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks) guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.

rms2
08-06-2017, 05:07 PM
I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks) guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.

Looks like he's still around in the U152 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152?iframe=yresults): Kit 121942.

MitchellSince1893
08-06-2017, 05:12 PM
I wish I could remember the details, but there was also a Kipchak (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kipchaks) guy who tested U152+ a few years back. I was actually the one who recruited him for testing via the old P312 Project when Rick Arnold and I were its admins.


ms2:
Maybe someone has commented on this already, but did you notice the sample in Busby from northeast of Ufa in the Russian Federation? It looks like the sample location is still in Bashkortostan in the Urals.

It's the one at latitude 55.6 longitude 57 (entry #61) here (latitude and longitude are reversed in Busby's Excel chart):

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/suppl/2011/08/18/rspb.2011.1044.DC1/rspb20111044supp2.xls

Anyway, out of a sample of 70, U152 was 71.4%!

I am assuming those were Bashkirs.

I know from the R-P312 and Subclades Project that there is also at least one Kipchak tribesman from Kazakhstan who is U152+ (R-L2, actually).

So, what is the connection between U152 and Turkic-speaking peoples?

Maliclavelli:
Ask Anatole Klyosov, who thinks that we all R-something are Turks! Anyway we knew those Bashkirs, but the R-U152-s are pretty all of the same haplotype, then more than the origin of R, some R (I’d bet he was Italian) who passed his holidays there.

Maliclavelli:
Geneticists call it founder effect, we say “un gallo nel pollaio” (to be .... of the walk).

MHammers:
I think Myres found the variance to be relatively low with Baskkir U152. My guess is that they were "Europeans" who were "Turkicized" in the Dark-Middle ages. The Goths were in the Crimean/North Black sea region not too long before the Turks arrived and the Bashkirs possibly have an origin there before they settled around the Urals. Even Celtic speakers reached western Ukraine and Anatolia (with U152?), so I don't think any eastern U152 would be from actual Turks from the Altai region. The Kazakh seems to be an outlier, but also probably from a western source.

rms2:
It's more than a little odd. Even if it were just the Bashkirs, it would be strange, but add in the Kipchak fellow, and it is really weird. By the way, I am the one who recruited the Kipchak guy for testing originally, with the help of the head of the Kazakhstan DNA Project. I was hoping at the time he would be P312+, but his Deep Clade went a little further than that.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:MTsRYZ2hn0kJ:www.worldfamilies.net/forum/index.php%3Ftopic%3D10057.0%3Bwap2+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

rms2
08-06-2017, 05:27 PM
There was always a rush to dismiss any eastern M269 as the product of a western European traveling salesman (or a Celt or a Goth, etc.). I guess that's still going on.

rms2
08-06-2017, 05:33 PM
. . .

Obviously there are plenty of explanations of how U152 could have ended up in Baskir men, but I am wondering if the fact that Z56 and L2 have been found in them merits a 2nd look.

I think you are right, and that was an excellent catch. Sorry I detracted from it with my Kipchak memory.

Back in 2011 or whenever it was, everyone (except me and maybe a couple of others) fell all over themselves in the rush to write off the Bashkir U152s as the result of some western European guy spending a wild weekend at Sandals, Bashkortostan.

MitchellSince1893
08-06-2017, 05:49 PM
I assume the Kazak man was 121942 Aseke M. (m) Kazak > KaraQypshaq>Tory>Alpeis>Tuishke>Dosym Kazakhstan R-L2

rms2
08-06-2017, 06:05 PM
I assume the Kazak man was 121942 Aseke M. (m) Kazak > KaraQypshaq>Tory>Alpeis>Tuishke>Dosym Kazakhstan R-L2

That should be him. He was the only Kipchak I could find in the U152 Project. I forget his first name, but it was something like Mehmet (probably the Kipchak version of Mohammed, I assume).

MitchellSince1893
08-06-2017, 07:06 PM
Map showing previously mentioned Bashkir men and a third man in the FTDNA U152 who is in the U152>Z36 subclade. I believe he is of Russian origin rather than Bashkir.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/67/3d/2f/673d2f10b9fdc3667cced2805a9ce383.png

And the red hair map for reference...there may be no genetic connection

https://connellkl.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/40-maps-they-didn_t-teach-you-in-school-bored-panda-mozilla-firefox-3162015-52503-pm-bmp.jpg

rms2
08-06-2017, 07:29 PM
I believe it's the Udmurts that are responsible for the orange and red blotch on the map of the Russian Federation.

R.Rocca
08-06-2017, 08:24 PM
Back when discovered in the Myres et al study in 2011, U152 in the Baskir was a real oddity as it was located thousands of miles to the east of the majority of U152 in Western and Central Europe. The study didn't identify any U152 subclades.

I remember reading a few years ago that U152 in the Baskir people was generally written off as a relatively recent event...due to a founder effect


Although I did note a similarity in the frequency of red hair maps in Europe and the location of Baskir territory I let it go and moved on.

But I just noticed that in this FTDNA project https://www.familytreedna.com/public/peoples/default.aspx?section=yresults

There are two U152+ men.
312692 Salagush-Baylar Tatar Gubaydulla(XVII), Azalak at., Salagush-Baylar clan Russian Federation R-Z145
209974 Baylar Bashkir Nagim(XIX), Kama river, Bashkortostan, Baylar clan Russian Federation R-L2

Z145 is not a subclade of U152>L2. Rather it's a subclade of U152>Z56. L2 and Z56's shared ancestor probably lived 4500 to 5000 years ago, so a single source recent founder effect cannot explain U152 in the Baskir.

The simple answer is that there was more than one recent event U152 founder....which will make this a really short thread.

I also read one post about the possibility that U152 in the Baskir was introduced by the Goths
http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2013/05/italan-complex-ancestry.html

Obviously there are plenty of explanations of how U152 could have ended up in Baskir men, but I am wondering if the fact that Z56 and L2 have been found in them merits a 2nd look.

A couple of points:

1. Sample 166376 from the FTDNA U152 Project was actually one of the 71.4% Northern Bashkirs. Admin Tibor Feher paid for the sample to be transferred to FTDNA. Unfortunately there was only enough DNA to do the 67 STR panel.
2. The Myres et. al samples all have exactly the same STR values across all North Bashkir samples (variance equals 0). So, there can be very little doubt that these belong to not only the same sub-clade, but also share a recent ancestor.

rms2
08-06-2017, 08:40 PM
What about the main point of the OP?



There are two U152+ men.
312692 Salagush-Baylar Tatar Gubaydulla(XVII), Azalak at., Salagush-Baylar clan Russian Federation R-Z145
209974 Baylar Bashkir Nagim(XIX), Kama river, Bashkortostan, Baylar clan Russian Federation R-L2

Z145 is not a subclade of U152>L2. Rather it's a subclade of U152>Z56. L2 and Z56's shared ancestor probably lived 4500 to 5000 years ago, so a single source recent founder effect cannot explain U152 in the Baskir.

Acque agitate
08-07-2017, 10:16 AM
Hello to everyone,
as I have already said in a different discussion time ago, I believe that sample 209974 (Baylar Bashkir Nagim) is part of subgroup U152> L2> DF110, Y3961> Y3964> Y3960 and is part of a specific and recent group together with:
- 196632 (Lewicki, Laszki Murowane);
- 186489 (John Jacszyn b.1873, Bereziv, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine);

It seems to me older to connect with:
- 353760 (Michael Schmidt c1555-1611)

This is my opinion, of course everything is to be verified;
If I had to bet a euro on their origin then I would say they are Goths or Khazars.
I would like the Vatican state to lend me the Cronovisore to check this out ... :):):)

Acque agitate
08-07-2017, 10:17 AM
Excuse me.
In English ...

Hello to everyone, as I have already said in a different discussion of time ago, I believe that sample 209974 (Baylar Bashkir Nagim) is part of subgroup U152> L2> DF110, Y3961> Y3964> Y3960 and is part of a specific group together with
- 196632 (Lewicki, Laszki Murowane);
- 186489 (John Jacszyn b.1873, Bereziv, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine);

It seems to me older to connect with:
- 353760 (Michael Schmidt c1555-1611)

This is my opinion, of course everything is to be verified;
If I had to bet a euro on their origin then I would say they are Goths or Khazars.
I would like the Vatican state to lend me the Cronovisore to check this out ... :):):)

MitchellSince1893
08-07-2017, 12:28 PM
I just ran
166376 (Myres Northern Bashkirs U152),
312692 (Salagush-Baylar Tatar Z56),
209974 (Kama river, Bashkortostan, Baylar clan, L2)
121942 (Aseke M. (m) Kazakhstan R-L2)

through the http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html and none of them were genetically close

312692 is only a 12 marker test, and his closest GD = 3 with 121942 but they are on different U152 subclades (Z56 and L2)

166376 (U152) at 67 markers had a GD=22 with 209974 (L2) , and GD= 20 with 121942 (L2)

209974 (L2) and 121942 had a GD=16 with each other

palamede
09-14-2017, 10:46 PM
Excuse me.
In English ...

Hello to everyone, as I have already said in a different discussion of time ago, I believe that sample 209974 (Baylar Bashkir Nagim) is part of subgroup U152> L2> DF110, Y3961> Y3964> Y3960 and is part of a specific group together with
- 196632 (Lewicki, Laszki Murowane);
- 186489 (John Jacszyn b.1873, Bereziv, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine);

It seems to me older to connect with:
- 353760 (Michael Schmidt c1555-1611)

This is my opinion, of course everything is to be verified;
If I had to bet a euro on their origin then I would say they are Goths or Khazars.
I would like the Vatican state to lend me the Cronovisore to check this out ... :):):)
A possible origin for the subgroup U152> L2> DF110, Y3961> Y3964> Y3960 "part of a specific group together with"
- 196632 (Lewicki, Laszki Murowane);
- 186489 (John Jacszyn b.1873, Bereziv, Lviv Oblast, Ukraine);

Laszki Murowane and Bereziv are neighbouring villages of the Lviv oblast. In https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laszki_Murowane_(rejon_starosamborski) is said that the first mention of the village was in 1374 as the village was the property of the knights Herbutów

In Wikipedia Poland https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herburtowie reports the history of the Herbutow family, first coming of a village Fůlme in the Weser valley near Detmold a city in North Rhine-Westphalia, Germany. There iare several notes in relation with charges in the region of Lviv.

Ethereal
09-15-2017, 05:04 PM
Could the same apply with Bashkiri Y DNA I1, I mean the Kazan Tartars have over 11%(!!!) Y DNA I1. I mean, that's a comparable amount to Austria and a lot of Germany too. I mean, if I'm quite lenient and raise the Kazan Tartar percentage of I1 to 15% (which it could have easily been given any foreign Y DNA admixture over the past few hundred or even thousand years would likely be more Mongoloid in origin), just LOOK at how much of the I1 map it is comparable to:

(I can't post links for some reason, but just look at the Eupedia I1 map).

That is practically ALL OF THE NON-NORDIC COUNTRIES. I am aware of what the founder effect is, but still, are we really to believe that this level of Y DNA I1 all came through minor incursions with Germanic tribes, I mean, what would these tribes even be doing as far as what is practically Kazakhstan!

spruithean
09-15-2017, 05:21 PM
Could the same apply with Bashkiri Y DNA I1, I mean the Kazan Tartars have over 11%(!!!) Y DNA I1. I mean, that's a comparable amount to Austria and a lot of Germany too. I mean, if I'm quite lenient and raise the Kazan Tartar percentage of I1 to 15% (which it could have easily been given any foreign Y DNA admixture over the past few hundred or even thousand years would likely be more Mongoloid in origin), just LOOK at how much of the I1 map it is comparable to:

(I can't post links for some reason, but just look at the Eupedia I1 map).

That is practically ALL OF THE NON-NORDIC COUNTRIES. I am aware of what the founder effect is, but still, are we really to believe that this level of Y DNA I1 all came through minor incursions with Germanic tribes, I mean, what would these tribes even be doing as far as what is practically Kazakhstan!

18762

Just adding the image here.

Ethereal
09-15-2017, 05:43 PM
18762

Just adding the image here.

Thanks

MitchellSince1893
09-15-2017, 07:05 PM
Thanks

When you reach 10 posts you will have permission to post images...it's part of the site's anti spam effort.

MitchellSince1893
03-04-2018, 04:58 PM
One thing I didn't remember when starting this thread was that when Bell Beaker sample RISE563 (oldest known U152 to date) was tested by Davidski at Eurogenes, he came out closest to present day Kargopol and Mordovan peoples of Russia

21946
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQSFJva2RkakpTdm8/view?usp=sharing
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2015/06/k8-results-for-selected-allentoft-et-al.html

R.Rocca
03-08-2018, 06:11 PM
A couple of things of interest on the Bashkirs:

- One of the U152 project admins (Tibor Feher) was able to get DNA from one of the Bashkirs in the study over to FTDNA. There was only enough DNA to perform STR-67 testing, so we don't know what subclade of U152 he belonged to. Nevgen's haplogroup predictor has him as 21.62% probability of being L2+Z49+Z142+Z51+ but 78.37% match for an unsupported (unknown?) subclade.
- Kit 209974 from the Bashkir Baylar clan is confirmed R-L2+.
- I don't think it is a coincidence that outside of R-L2, the only other L23 downstream subclade that has shown up in the Bell Beaker East group has been R-Z2103. We know that U152 and Z2103 are high in Bashkirs. It is conceivable that the Danube/Steppe superhighway was traveled back and forth by these two groups.

markalliston
09-16-2018, 11:59 AM
There is story of a man named Prester John a legendary Christian king who had a kingdom in the east. Some of the early English coat of arms list him at the top making him the most important. They credited him with saving Christianity, they may have been confused with the mongols, however with u152 in the east there may be some truth in it. Any views on this?

Bulat
09-28-2018, 02:28 PM
At present, among the Bashkirs, found interesting haplotypes, 5 men with from R1b-M269, R1b-Z337.

13 22 14 11 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 x x x 25 15 x x x x 11 19-23 x x x x x x 12
13 22 14 11 11-13 12 12 11 13 13 29 19 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 x 11 11 19-23 15 x 17 17 x 12 12


http://www.academia.edu/23883596/Muratov_B.A._The_DNA-genealogy_of_Bashkirs_tribes_-_8._Ayle_Qir-Qangli_Asili-Qobau_Ithel-Elan_clans_BEHPS_Vila_do_Conde-Moscow-Ufa_ISSN_2410-1788_Volume_3_3_1_2_March_2016_P.171-191

All found lived in Ik river and Yuruzan river https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuryuzan_River

4 persons - R1b-М269, and one person - R1b-Z337. Probably from Ik and Yuruzan rivers here ancestors R1b-P312 have migrated to Europe (IIIrd millennium BC = 2 700 BC).

Scat
11-10-2018, 10:46 PM
And what about turkmens u152?

Yabalak
11-10-2019, 07:07 AM
A couple of points:

1. Sample 166376 from the FTDNA U152 Project was actually one of the 71.4% Northern Bashkirs. Admin Tibor Feher paid for the sample to be transferred to FTDNA. Unfortunately there was only enough DNA to do the 67 STR panel.
2. The Myres et. al samples all have exactly the same STR values across all North Bashkir samples (variance equals 0). So, there can be very little doubt that these belong to not only the same sub-clade, but also share a recent ancestor.

In Bulat Aznabaev’s work "Bashkir society from the XVII century to the first third of the XVIII century.", Ufa, 2016 (in Russian) there is information on incorporation of at least one West European into a Nothern Bashkir clan:

“Among the representatives of various ethnic groups included in the structure of the Bashkir clans, there were also groups quite exotic for the region. In 1652, the Bashkirs of the village of Bisert of the Gaynа district named Aktugan and Ilbakhtey, sons of Alish, submitted a complaint against a Bashkir of the same district Afonka, son of Yanmurza, accusing him of invading their own patrimonial land on the Bisert river. During the trial, the defendant stated that the disputed patrimony was bought from the plaintiffs father for 10 rubles.

The plaintiff Aktugan insisted that his father could not sell the patrimony because it was not officially separated from Kushchi clan Bashkirs’ estate, since “his father was a native German (Немчин) and took the land from the Kushchi clan Bashkirs against the obligation to pay Yasak (tax), 57 years ago, and in that case his father gave a record to the Kushchi Bashkirs.”

Thus, back in the 90s of the 16th century, a certain “German" concluded an agreement on the admission to the clan’s land, and his sons in the middle of the XVII century became full-fledged holders of patrimonial estate of the Gayna district. The appearance of a European among the Bashkirs is understandable. A decree dated June 18, 1593 was in force in neighboring Kazan county, according to which the Tatar landowners lost the right to own Russian people. Instead, they were invited to accept or buy "Lithuanians, Latvians, Tatars, and Mordovians." From distant military expeditions, they brought with them captured and bought Germans, Latvians and Lithuanians, and planted them on their lands.

According to the census of the Kazan district by I. Boltin, a German Anza Kutleyarov lived in the estate of the serving Tatar of Kalmyk origin, Bakshanda Nurushev. A German Matish lived in the courtyard of the Prince Bagish Yaushev. These foreigners, having fallen into a different environment, subsequently converted to Islam, married Tatar women and assimilated completely with Tatars. In 1646, while describing the estate of Prince Baish Yaushev, the census takers registered a native German Mineyko Bekbulatov, peasant of the village of Minger of the Arsk Road,. It is likely that some of these enslaved Germans, having lost hope of returning to their homeland, at least sought to gain freedom. "

Personally I would like to add that the Russian word «Nemchin» translated here as «German» at the time had the meaning of a Western European in general and not exclusively German.
The full text of the Russian document about Alish’s sons was published in another work. So we know that in 1652 three sons of a native «German» were members of a Nothern Bashkir clan Kushchi and had patrimonial estate at the confluence of Bisert and Ufa rivers. On the Google Map: https://www.google.com/maps/place/56%C2%B039'10.8%22N+57%C2%B055'04.1%22E/@56.653,57.9178,18488m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d56.653!4d57. 9178