PDA

View Full Version : The Italian highlanders who may have Scottish roots



Jean M
08-11-2017, 01:06 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40865981


Thousands of Italians emigrated to Scotland in the 20th Century, but it seems that 400 years earlier a group of Scots may have settled in a village in the Italian Alps. So local legend has it… And there are plenty of signs to suggest that maybe, just maybe, it's true.

High up in the mountains of northern Italy, just a few kilometres from the Swiss border, the people of the tiny village of Gurro speak a strange dialect, incomprehensible even to the other villages in the same valley.

They have peculiar surnames, and the women's traditional costume features a patterned underskirt that looks suspiciously like tartan.

One possible explanation is that their forefathers include a unit of Scottish soldiers - the Garde Ecossaise - who served the French King, Francis I, and were defeated with him at the Battle of Pavia, near Milan, in February 1525.

The story goes that while trying to make their way home the Scots stopped in Gurro, where they got snowed in for the winter. Many locals believe they never left.

alexfritz
08-11-2017, 05:04 AM
there seem to be a lot of those folk tales in the alps about marauding bands of mercenaries and them settling villages; there is one (forgot the name) in the eastern alps about turks/turkish mercenaries a well;

what i have found very interesting is the Yhg data from Coia et al 2013
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704
about the ladin valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena) of the dolomites n=142
10.5% K-M9 [15 samples] 0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples] 8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples] 0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples] 28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples] 10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples] 4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples] 1.4% R1a [2 samples] 0.7% I-M170 [1 samples] 4.9% I1-M253 [7samples] 0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples] 5.6% G-M201 [8 samples] 0.7% E-M35 [1 samples] 2.8% E-V13 [4 samples] 4.9% J1-M267 [7samples] 0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples] 10.5% J2a [15 samples] 3.5% J2b [5 samples]

the 10.5% of R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley n=12/49) is the real surprise, as an island in an area surrounded by almost none: Bavaria 1.3% R1b-L21 (n=218 Rebala et al 2013) East Tyrol 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=270 Niederstätter et al 2012) Venetia 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=73 Boattini et al 2013);

my personal suspect are the gaelic/scots monks not of a particular mission but of an (benedictine?) order might sound a bit heretical but who knows how lonely the time in an alpine valley gets;

vettor
08-11-2017, 05:52 AM
there seem to be a lot of those folk tales in the alps about marauding bands of mercenaries and them settling villages; there is one (forgot the name) in the eastern alps about turks/turkish mercenaries a well;

what i have found very interesting is the Yhg data from Coia et al 2013
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704
about the ladin valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena) of the dolomites n=142
10.5% K-M9 [15 samples] 0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples] 8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples] 0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples] 28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples] 10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples] 4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples] 1.4% R1a [2 samples] 0.7% I-M170 [1 samples] 4.9% I1-M253 [7samples] 0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples] 5.6% G-M201 [8 samples] 0.7% E-M35 [1 samples] 2.8% E-V13 [4 samples] 4.9% J1-M267 [7samples] 0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples] 10.5% J2a [15 samples] 3.5% J2b [5 samples]

the 10.5% of R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley n=12/49) is the real surprise, as an island in an area surrounded by almost none: Bavaria 1.3% R1b-L21 (n=218 Rebala et al 2013) East Tyrol 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=270 Niederstätter et al 2012) Venetia 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=73 Boattini et al 2013);

my personal suspect are the gaelic/scots monks not of a particular mission but of an (benedictine?) order might sound a bit heretical but who knows how lonely the time in an alpine valley gets;

The paper is nowhere near the Julian alps..........it is basically about modern tyrolese and their Gallic ancestors who became known as Ladin , because they learnt Latin from the Romans in AD times.
The Bulk of mtdna ( IIRC the same paper was 60% of k1a group ) ..........btw, the 15 samples of K-M9 are 9 x T1a , 5 x L1 and one undecided

Jean was commenting on all the italians that travelled to scotalnd from minor tuscan villages ..............many became gelati makers/vendors in scotland ( there was some form of agreement )
she is one
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/tamzin-outhwaite

alexfritz
08-11-2017, 06:06 AM
The paper is nowhere near the Julian alps..........it is basically about modern tyrolese and their Gallic ancestors who became known as Ladin , because they learnt Latin from the Romans in AD times.
The Bulk of mtdna ( IIRC the same paper was 60% of k1a group ) ..........btw, the 15 samples of K-M9 are 9 x T1a , 5 x L1 and one undecided

Jean was commenting on all the italians that travelled to scotalnd from minor tuscan villages ..............many became gelati makers/vendors in scotland ( there was some form of agreement )
she is one
http://www.whodoyouthinkyouaremagazine.com/episode/tamzin-outhwaite

so the L21 is explained as a gallic marker in those valleys, might be; i dont know judging however by the surrounding areas i still think there is a moere direct/later(medieval) source for it; do you know any interpretations as to why the diversity of R1b is so high in the alps? specially these valleys? and correct me if im wrong but is K1a mtDNA viewed as a signal of neolithic farmers thus neolithic ancestry?

since the K-M9 was dissected do you know what specific clades the two R1a were/are?

vettor
08-11-2017, 07:01 AM
so the L21 is explained as a gallic marker in those valleys, might be; i dont know judging however by the surrounding areas i still think there is a moere direct/later(medieval) source for it; do you know any interpretations as to why the diversity of R1b is so high in the alps? specially these valleys? and correct me if im wrong but is K1a mtDNA viewed as a signal of neolithic farmers thus neolithic ancestry?

since the K-M9 was dissected do you know what specific clades the two R1a were/are?

Some analysis was in the russian ( in English ) site called Molgen

The K1a mtdna was analysed by ian Logan

Valentina Coia..........this paper on the Veneto and SouthTyrol alps and alpine villages and noted the tested mtdna from towns Sappada , Fassa and others and calculated that 26 of the 60 samples where K1 ( mtdna ) that's over 43%

SAP001 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP003 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP004 16224 16311 73 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP005 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP006 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP008 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP010 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP013 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP014 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP015 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP017 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP019 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP022 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP024 16224 16311 73 189 200 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP025 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP029 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP030 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP031 16244 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP032 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP037 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP042 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP043 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP044 16224 16311 73 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP048 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP055 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP056 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1

he also analysed my wife whose ancestors come from the carnian alps
As for your wife's sequence she does have a unique mutation:
A12273G - mutation in tRNA for Leucine (CUN) (MT-L2) . . . . . Unique in this sequence

I need to check elsewhere, but IIRC all where analysed as best as can be done given the results

there are ydna info which will have R1a ............see under supporting , there is part of a excel sheet with tabs, search this
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056371

vettor
08-11-2017, 07:12 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-40865981

another
http://italychronicles.com/barga-scottish-italian/


http://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/travel/welcome-to-barga-the-most-scottish-town-in-italy-1-4238742

alexfritz
08-11-2017, 08:05 AM
Some analysis was in the russian ( in English ) site called Molgen

The K1a mtdna was analysed by ian Logan

Valentina Coia..........this paper on the Veneto and SouthTyrol alps and alpine villages and noted the tested mtdna from towns Sappada , Fassa and others and calculated that 26 of the 60 samples where K1 ( mtdna ) that's over 43%

SAP001 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP003 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP004 16224 16311 73 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP005 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP006 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP008 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP010 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP013 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP014 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP015 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP017 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP019 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP022 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP024 16224 16311 73 189 200 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP025 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP029 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP030 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP031 16244 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP032 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP037 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP042 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP043 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP044 16224 16311 73 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP048 16224 16311 73 146 152 257 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP055 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1
SAP056 16224 16311 73 146 195 263 4769G 7028T 10398G 12308G 14766T K1

he also analysed my wife whose ancestors come from the carnian alps
As for your wife's sequence she does have a unique mutation:
A12273G - mutation in tRNA for Leucine (CUN) (MT-L2) . . . . . Unique in this sequence

I need to check elsewhere, but IIRC all where analysed as best as can be done given the results

there are ydna info which will have R1a ............see under supporting , there is part of a excel sheet with tabs, search this
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056371

thank you very much;
didnt know about Timau and its high R1a freq, though at NEVGEN.ORG its always just R1a with no specifics as also in the academic data is just specified as M17 (same as in niederstätter et al), thus doesnt tell me much; maybe its much like neighboring slovenia (Z280)? do you know any specific wend/windisch links? or could it be from germanic since timau is german(bai) speaking mother tongue? i looked at the other Yhg data and the ladin valleys truly do stand out concerning L21, high R1b diversity though remains in the other valleys n=138 adige, primiero and fiemme 3.6% K-M9 [5 samples] 9.4% R1b-M269 [13 samples] 2.1% R1b-L51 [3 samples] 0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples] 4.3% R1b-P312 [6 samples] 1.4% R1b-SRY2627 [2 samples] 0.7% R1b-L21 [1 samples] 26.0% R1b-U152 [36 samples] 6.5% R1b-U106 [9 samples] 5.0% R1a-M17 [7 samples] 18.1% G-M201 [25 samples] 4.3% I1-M253 [6 samples] 0.7% I2-M223 [1 samples] 2.1% I2-M423 [3 samples] 5.7% E-V13 [8 samples] 0.7% E-V22 [1 samples] 1.4% J1-M267 [2 samples] 2.1% J2a [3 samples] 2.8% J2b [4 samples]

concerning R1a, these valleys had more settlement/contact with germanic than with slavic people; might provide an insight but its not specific enough, too bad;

vettor
08-11-2017, 09:46 AM
thank you very much;
didnt know about Timau and its high R1a freq, though at NEVGEN.ORG its always just R1a with no specifics as also in the academic data is just specified as M17 (same as in niederstätter et al), thus doesnt tell me much; maybe its much like neighboring slovenia (Z280)? do you know any specific wend/windisch links? or could it be from germanic since timau is german(bai) speaking mother tongue? i looked at the other Yhg data and the ladin valleys truly do stand out concerning L21, high R1b diversity though remains in the other valleys n=138 adige, primiero and fiemme 3.6% K-M9 [5 samples] 9.4% R1b-M269 [13 samples] 2.1% R1b-L51 [3 samples] 0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples] 4.3% R1b-P312 [6 samples] 1.4% R1b-SRY2627 [2 samples] 0.7% R1b-L21 [1 samples] 26.0% R1b-U152 [36 samples] 6.5% R1b-U106 [9 samples] 5.0% R1a-M17 [7 samples] 18.1% G-M201 [25 samples] 4.3% I1-M253 [6 samples] 0.7% I2-M223 [1 samples] 2.1% I2-M423 [3 samples] 5.7% E-V13 [8 samples] 0.7% E-V22 [1 samples] 1.4% J1-M267 [2 samples] 2.1% J2a [3 samples] 2.8% J2b [4 samples]

concerning R1a, these valleys had more settlement/contact with germanic than with slavic people; might provide an insight but its not specific enough, too bad;

If your are of alpine ancestry , join

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/alpine-dna-project-alp-gen-genealogy/about/background

and send an email to Chris.........very very helpful ...........he most likely will help you out.............IIRC , he is in Italian south-tyrol

Jean M
08-11-2017, 11:07 AM
Jean was commenting on all the italians that travelled to scotalnd from minor tuscan villages ... she is one

No I am not a Scot of Italian ancestry. :biggrin1: I am an Englishwoman with some Scots ancestry and a surname from a Portuguese ex-husband.

I did post about Scots of Italian ancestry though. There was a project about them. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5144-Scots-Italian-and-Scottish-midwife-ancestors-requested

Grossvater
08-11-2017, 04:02 PM
This sounds suspiciously like the Duchy of Grand Fenwick!

vettor
08-11-2017, 07:22 PM
No I am not a Scot of Italian ancestry. :biggrin1: I am an Englishwoman with some Scots ancestry and a surname from a Portuguese ex-husband.

I did post about Scots of Italian ancestry though. There was a project about them. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5144-Scots-Italian-and-Scottish-midwife-ancestors-requested

sorry...I meant link below was one and not yourself

JerryS.
08-11-2017, 08:19 PM
No I am not a Scot of Italian ancestry. :biggrin1: I am an Englishwoman with some Scots ancestry and a surname from a Portuguese ex-husband.

I did post about Scots of Italian ancestry though. There was a project about them. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5144-Scots-Italian-and-Scottish-midwife-ancestors-requested

Peter Capaldi, the 12th Doctor.

Jean M
08-11-2017, 11:14 PM
Peter Capaldi, the 12th Doctor.

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Nutini

And https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lena_Zavaroni

Ryukendo
08-12-2017, 01:09 AM
there seem to be a lot of those folk tales in the alps about marauding bands of mercenaries and them settling villages; there is one (forgot the name) in the eastern alps about turks/turkish mercenaries a well;

what i have found very interesting is the Yhg data from Coia et al 2013
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0081704
about the ladin valleys (Badia/Fassa/Gardena) of the dolomites n=142
10.5% K-M9 [15 samples] 0.7% R1b-M269 [1 samples] 8.4% R1b-L51 [12 samples] 0.7% R1b-L11 [1 samples] 28.1% R1b-U152 [40 samples] 10.5% R1b-L21 [15 samples] 4.2% R1b-U106 [6 samples] 1.4% R1a [2 samples] 0.7% I-M170 [1 samples] 4.9% I1-M253 [7samples] 0.7% I2-P37.2 [1 samples] 5.6% G-M201 [8 samples] 0.7% E-M35 [1 samples] 2.8% E-V13 [4 samples] 4.9% J1-M267 [7samples] 0.7% J2-M172 [1 samples] 10.5% J2a [15 samples] 3.5% J2b [5 samples]

the 10.5% of R1b-L21 (reaching 24.4% in Gardena-valley n=12/49) is the real surprise, as an island in an area surrounded by almost none: Bavaria 1.3% R1b-L21 (n=218 Rebala et al 2013) East Tyrol 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=270 Niederstätter et al 2012) Venetia 0.0% R1b-L21 (n=73 Boattini et al 2013);

my personal suspect are the gaelic/scots monks not of a particular mission but of an (benedictine?) order might sound a bit heretical but who knows how lonely the time in an alpine valley gets;

Hahahahaha

Tz85
08-12-2017, 01:24 AM
Is this serious real? Seems comical to me.