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St. Pierre
08-11-2017, 08:52 PM
I am down to being positive for R1b>Z367 at YSEQ and they are still working down to my terminal haplogroup. Does anybody know the history on Z367? thanks

Adam R. St. Pierre

A.Morup
08-12-2017, 12:34 PM
Hi Adam!

Welcome in my haplogroup neighborhood :-)

The place to start is always the Eupedia article on R-M343 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml).
Long but well worth reading!

I think these maps from the FTDNA U152-project are also quite interesting:
Map of most distant known paternal ancestor of all R-L2 testers (https://www.google.dk/maps/@50.8362118,3.1857119,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1lQrsuJ401Pfc9G1Fg0bQjPV1Y Kg) (just above Z367)
Map of most distant known paternal ancestor of all R-Z367 testers (https://www.google.dk/maps/@50.5911703,3.5806741,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1Mh_tNzR0y0cSs8vk-K0AL-W-JUc)
The last one seems to show a distribution from the original Celtic areas just North of the Alps, following the Rhine to Scotland.

There is always the Yfull tree of Z367 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z367/).
I hope to see you there one day, if you do a BigY (currently on sale for just 395 USD)

Now I am just interested to hear if you test BY3604 - then we have a lot more to talk about ;-)

Kind regards
Anders, Denmark

St. Pierre
08-15-2017, 07:09 PM
positive for Z259

A.Morup
08-15-2017, 07:54 PM
Getting closer to me ;-)

Z259 is also called R-Z34: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1204
I am "Nielsen" by the way :-)

There is also a R-Z34 map from the FTDNA U152 project (https://www.google.dk/maps/@52.1549964,0.3515743,4.75z/data=!4m2!6m1!1s1E0yK-ViqExz6-HfwfxLUU8Ph7Co).
My "dot" is in Southern Sweden

Yfull tree of R-Z34 (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z34/).

Kind regards
Anders

St. Pierre
08-15-2017, 09:49 PM
Do we know if our line is a Celtic or more Scandinavian Vikings line? My family was very prominent in Normandy France from atleast 1200-1665 when my grandfather immigrated to Canada, a branch of the family also settled in Cheshire, England and was called the Bunbury family.

A.Morup
08-16-2017, 06:48 AM
It is Celtic beyond doubt!
The line goes R-M343 > M269 > P312 > U152 > L2 > Z367 > Z34, where U152 and L2 are THE celtic haplogroups.

It is always good to read the Eupedia article on R-M343 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml)!
There is also a good U152 Facebook group.

Taking a haplogroup panel at Yseq is the cheapest way to go deep down the haplotree, but to get right to the end, one must take a BigY, which is currently on offer at FTDNA at "only" 395 USD. A follow-up analyses at Yfull (49 USD) is a must. Did you consider that?

St. Pierre
08-16-2017, 12:56 PM
I am when I have the xtra $, does a BigY give just haplogroup info?

A.Morup
08-17-2017, 09:04 AM
Well, BigY will give you the most detailed haplogroup that is possible.
But it will also give you all the mutations (SNPs) that only you have "below" that final haplogroup - they are called "private SNPs" or "novel SNPs".
When somebody else tests BigY and also turns out to have one of your private SNPs, this SNP is turned into a new haplogroup and you "loose" that SNP as a private SNP.

If you BigY tested yourself AND a brother or father, you would most probably end up with no private SNPs and a public haplogroup containing just you and your brother/father - unless one of you by chance had a private SNP that the other one did not have!

SNP panels are just testing the known branches (tests the roads that are already on the map) - BigY explores the unexplored (finds the new roads for other to follow).
So BigY (or other NGS testing) is how haplogroups are created - if nobody took BigY, we would not have a very detailed haplotree (not many roads on the map).

Any new results from Yseq yet - are you getting further down the haplotree?
I am very curious - and if you end up in BY3604 I will be on your neck to convince you to do BigY ;-)

St. Pierre
08-17-2017, 12:27 PM
they are processing BY3604 and PF7623 for 2 days now so I should know by tomorrow and i'll let you know

St. Pierre
08-19-2017, 01:34 PM
positive for BY3604

A.Morup
08-19-2017, 01:37 PM
WOW! Very interesting! Let's see the last results too.
BigY is on offer for just 395$ for the rest of august ;-)

St. Pierre
08-19-2017, 01:53 PM
does BY3604 have any other names?

St. Pierre
08-19-2017, 01:55 PM
My Allele Results





SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele


11039 A113 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 BY13220 ChrY 24501267 24501267 C-
11039 BY1503 ChrY 19120960 19120960 T-
11039 BY17771 ChrY 9811041 9811041 T-
11039 BY3604 ChrY 24501363 24501363 A+
11039 BZ2682 ChrY 19120960 19120960 T-
11039 FGC11203 ChrY 19121014 19121014 C-
11039 FGC21572 ChrY 9810957 9810957 G-
11039 FGC43469 ChrY 19121204 19121204 C-
11039 FGC44309 ChrY 5755354 5755354 A-
11039 FGC49971 ChrY 28462091 28462091 C-
11039 FGC8234 ChrY 24501451 24501451 T-
11039 FGC8659 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 FGC9970 ChrY 24501505 24501505 A-
11039 L1163 ChrY 28462444 28462444 T-
11039 L2 ChrY 5755550 5755550 T+
11039 M10139 ChrY 19120949 19120949 T-
11039 S139 ChrY 5755550 5755550 T+
11039 S255 ChrY 9810794 9810794 C+
11039 V3801 ChrY 19120949 19120949 T-
11039 V3802 ChrY 19121111 19121111 T-
11039 Y12121 ChrY 5755331 5755331 C-
11039 Y16311 ChrY 5755557 5755557 A-
11039 Y21713 ChrY 19121053 19121053 A-
11039 Y31732 ChrY 9810939 9810939 T-
11039 Y3534 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 Z259 ChrY 19121155 19121155 A+
11039 Z367 ChrY 9810794 9810794 C+
11039 Z3996 ChrY 9811038 9811038 T-
11039 Z42852 ChrY 19121083 19121083 T-
11039 Z43437 ChrY 9811063 9811063 G-
11039 Z49 ChrY 28462237 28462237 G-
11039 ZP23 ChrY 19121014 19121014 C-
11039 ZS6893 ChrY 19120979 19120979 G-

and now they are testing A14637 and Z257

Robert1
08-19-2017, 02:15 PM
A.Morup, thank you for those informative comments!

A.Morup
08-19-2017, 03:23 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

No - BY3604 is just plain old BY3604 :)

Just remember - there are only 6 testers in this haplogroup in the whole world, so don't expect to find a lot of articles if you Google "BY3604" ;-)
If anybody has to write something about BY3604, it has to be us!

So let me start doing that ;) :

Start by taking a take a look at Ytree: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617
Currently, there are 2 major subgroups of BY3604 - the clearly Scandinavian group that I am part of, and then the Z257 group.

The Z257 group is tested in your Yseq panel as Z257 = 17087407 T>C and then CTS7352 = 17434742 G>A.
The two "1K Genomes" (1.000 Genomes) are older anonymous scientific tests - all we know are that they are "CEU = Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry (http://www.internationalgenome.org/data-portal/sample/NA07347)" - that is all.
I am in contact with the "Patterson" sample, but he does not know his ancestry before it arrived to the US (before 1765!) - the name does however sound Scandinavian!

My Scandinavian branch is from Southern Sweden and (maybe) Denmark.
These days, we are closing in on the common ancestor between me ("Nielsen") and the "Nilsson" kit, and we are 90% sure it is a man born in Blekinge in Southern Sweden in ~1620. We might have DNA evidence to this within weeks.
The other kit ("Göransson") is Danish/Swedish but branches out at around the year 1500, so no written sources here, but we might get a bit closer during the "genealogy season" of the coming winther.

The major problem with my block are the 23 SNPs between the 3 Scandinavian samples and then BY3604. This represents the history from about 1000 BC to 1500 AD in one big unordered chunk! We have no chance of knowing which of these 23 SNPs are the oldest and the youngest - they are just listed in random order.
That is why we are all very eager to see a BY3604 BigY that would break up these 23 SNPs in two blocks - the older ones and the younger ones.
This person could be you :)

The A14637 tested by your panel is just a random of these 23 SNPs, so it would be extreme luck for all of us, if you are positive for this haplogroup. I think odds are like 1:23 at best ;-)
So if you come out negative for A14637 and Z257, you are either still within our 23 SNPs (just one or more of the other 22 SNPs) or you are all alone in a completely new group under BY3604.

Another way to do it would be for you to test for all these SNPs one at a time at Yseq, but at 18$ a piece, that will end up costing 396$, compared with BigY at 395$ on sale.
And you testing the extra 22 SNPs will give us a lot and you very little...

Before ordering a BigY, just be aware that BigY will just leave you more confused. The value of BigY will only come to you as you work with it and as other people test - so no "free lunch" there either.

At Yfull you can see the same samples, but with age estimations: https://yfull.com/tree/R-BY3604/

Now - have you got any genealogy on your paternal side (fathers, fathers, fathers...)?
How far back and where?

Kind regards
Anders (your very distant cousin - but now at most 3.000 years apart!)

St. Pierre
08-19-2017, 10:27 PM
Yes I can trace my St. Pierre family to Normandy, France in the Rouen, Gouy areas to the early/mid 1500's, my oldest paper trail grandfather was Colin de Saint Pierre. The DE Saint Pierre family was a well known family in Normandy since the time of William the Conqueror and it was said the family had castles in the area of St. Lo, Normandy. A younger son of the St. Pierre's went to England with Hugh Lupus(William the Conqueror's cousin) and settled in Cheshire and took the surname of Bunbury.

A.Morup
08-20-2017, 01:56 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

Wow - an ancestor with his own Wikipedia page (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Saint-Pierre) - cool!

Have you considered doing som Y-DNA reseach on the St. Pierre family?
It seems like the family and the descendants are well documented, and there is a real family name - a great gift for starting such a project.

Here is an example at Ytree: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=957

And here some examples of "custom panels" at Yseq that thanks to extensive Y-DNA research can place you exactly on the family tree of some old families:
Royce family panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=29948)
Goodrich family panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=11332)

Just be aware that such family panels take a handful of BigYs and some serious work, but at the end you can place any "St. Pierre" on the family tree with just a few SNP tests.

Being a Dane, that is not so easy, since we had patronyms until the end of the 19th century instead of family names - so e.g. Jens Nielsen would have two sons and they would be called e.g. "Niels Jensen" and "Hans Jensen" and their sons would then be "Jens Nielsen" (first son of first son) and "Jens Hansen" (first son of second son) and so on. No real family names on my side :-(

You can see what I did with my BigY results here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10121-My-private-SNP-project

And still waiting to hear the result of your final haplogroup :)

/ Anders

St. Pierre
08-21-2017, 01:06 PM
No new results from YSEQ yet but I was added as a participant in the Full Genomes Y Panel pilot, I don't know the extent of what i'll find out maybe nothing more than what I paid YSEQ for but it was free so cant complain.

A.Morup
08-21-2017, 04:21 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

I am getting just as impatient as you for the last results :)

I know very little of the "Full Genomes Y Panel pilot", but I found this thread, if you want to learn (a bit) more:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11473-FGC-Y-Panel-Pilot-Free

Seems to be a project to build a "super haplogroup panel" including all haplogroups?

Kind regards
Anders

St. Pierre
08-22-2017, 06:59 PM
M11817 G+, where does this put me on the YTree and if L2 is also R1b1a1a2a1a2b1, then what is the R1b name for M11817?

A.Morup
08-22-2017, 08:21 PM
M11817 does not give any meaning - must be an intermediate result or something.
Is there a position - like 12345678 A>G ?

St. Pierre
08-22-2017, 08:49 PM
17087233 G+ is the start and end of the chromosome

St. Pierre
08-22-2017, 08:50 PM
My Allele Results





SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele


11039 A113 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 AM00683 ChrY 17087457 17087457 G-
11039 BY13220 ChrY 24501267 24501267 C-
11039 BY1503 ChrY 19120960 19120960 T-
11039 BY17771 ChrY 9811041 9811041 T-
11039 BY3604 ChrY 24501363 24501363 A+
11039 BZ2682 ChrY 19120960 19120960 T-
11039 F12128 ChrY 17087457 17087457 G-
11039 FGC11203 ChrY 19121014 19121014 C-
11039 FGC12033 ChrY 17087221 17087221 A-
11039 FGC21572 ChrY 9810957 9810957 G-
11039 FGC42794 ChrY 17087348 17087348 C-
11039 FGC43469 ChrY 19121204 19121204 C-
11039 FGC44309 ChrY 5755354 5755354 A-
11039 FGC49971 ChrY 28462091 28462091 C-
11039 FGC8234 ChrY 24501451 24501451 T-
11039 FGC8659 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 FGC9970 ChrY 24501505 24501505 A-
11039 L1163 ChrY 28462444 28462444 T-
11039 L2 ChrY 5755550 5755550 T+
11039 M10139 ChrY 19120949 19120949 T-
11039 M11817 ChrY 17087233 17087233 G+
11039 S139 ChrY 5755550 5755550 T+
11039 S255 ChrY 9810794 9810794 C+
11039 V3801 ChrY 19120949 19120949 T-
11039 V3802 ChrY 19121111 19121111 T-
11039 Y12121 ChrY 5755331 5755331 C-
11039 Y16311 ChrY 5755557 5755557 A-
11039 Y21713 ChrY 19121053 19121053 A-
11039 Y31732 ChrY 9810939 9810939 T-
11039 Y3534 ChrY 28462524 28462524 C-
11039 Z257 ChrY 17087407 17087407 T-
11039 Z259 ChrY 19121155 19121155 A+
11039 Z33137 ChrY 17087457 17087457 G-
11039 Z367 ChrY 9810794 9810794 C+
11039 Z3996 ChrY 9811038 9811038 T-
11039 Z42852 ChrY 19121083 19121083 T-
11039 Z43437 ChrY 9811063 9811063 G-
11039 Z49 ChrY 28462237 28462237 G-
11039 ZP23 ChrY 19121014 19121014 C-
11039 ZS6893 ChrY 19120979 19120979 G-

A.Morup
08-30-2017, 06:24 AM
Hi St. Pierre!

Just got your message that you are BY3604+ but not positive for any known SNPs below (you are A14637-, A15646-, Z257- and CTS7352-).
I answer here so that others might read and use the advices too.

Here is the Ytree for BY3604 as we know it today: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617

You ask if your result means that you are a completely new BY3604 branch. That might well be possible!
But it might also be possible that you are positive for one or several of the 23 SNPs between my "Scandinavian cluster" and then BY3604.
The Yseq panel has only tested you for one random of the 24 SNPs in that big chunk between "The Scandinavian cluster" and BY3604.

This option makes me slightly impartial, because I would love to see those 24 SNPs broken up into two portions (older SNPs and younger SNPs), but that will require a BigY from you - and that I am so lucky that you happen to be positive for any of those 24 SNPs.
If your sample breaks up the 24 SNPs, then that will create a new haplogroup that will soon be added to Yseq's panel so that the next testers will have more chances to get further down the haplotree.

Basically, BY3604 is a pretty detailed haplogroup and not even described on any websites, so testing below BY3604 (e.g. with BigY) will not lead you to a point where there is any information to find online - from here on you (and I) have to write the story of BY3604 and what is below. So more testing will not lead you to any "free" results - we are on our own from here.

Have you done Y37 or Y67 at FTDNA? That is a precondition for ordering BigY but can also lead you to Y-matches that can help you reveal your ancestry.
Both Y37, Y67 and BigY are on sale at FTDNA (BigY cheaper than ever at 395$ vs a listed price of 575$), but only until tomorrow - but there will be other sales later (most probably in december).

Testing those 24 SNPs one at a time at Yseq will cost you 24 x 18$ = 432$, so a BigY on sale will give you much more at a smaller cost...

But you taking a BigY will not really benefit yourself, unless you are willing to work with the results. The benefits of BigY (as described earlier in this thread) only unfold as you work with your results, even testing very distant family members for some SNPs (at Yseq).

But a BigY will surely benefit all the other BY3604+ testers - and the human haplotree :-)

So take this as impartial advice ;)

Kind regards
Anders

St. Pierre
09-06-2017, 06:59 PM
YSEQ says I'm BY3604+ and negative for all downstream branches, so when I can do the BigY and the Y37/Y67 my branch below BY3604 will be a new haplogroup?

A.Morup
09-06-2017, 07:24 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

First of all, if you already have a Y-test at FTDNA, you can do BigY without more testing.

To form a new haplogroup, you need to test positive for at least one SNP that only one other person has been tested positive for before you.

So if we look here: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1616

If you test postive for any one (or more) of the 24 SNPs between "Göransson" and BY3604, you will break this chunk into two haplogroups - one new haplogroup and then BY1091.

You might also risk to end up with maybe 15-30 until now unseen SNPs (called "novel" or "private" SNPs) below BY3604 and thus be all on your own until somebody else tests positive for some of those SNPs and form a new haplogroup. This is how the whole haplotree has evolved.
The later is the case on the link above if you look at e.g. the "Voos" sample who has no haplogroups between Z33/Z35 and him. If you click on his name (http://ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=5302), you get a list of his private SNPs (only those with "Y" in combBED are the ones used for age calculation at Yfull). There are 19 of them and as soon as a far relative of his tests postive for any number of them, a new haplogroup will be formed under Z33/Z35 with "Voos" and this new tester.

This is how it works - same at Ytree (free) and Yfull (49 USD, but you get access to more data).

But please wait for the next sale at FTDNA before doing any shopping - 575 USD is A LOT of money!

Kind regards
Anders

A.Morup
09-06-2017, 08:15 PM
I have made this simulation showing the two possible outcomes: http://morup-petersen.dk/Simulation_DNA_split.png

There is also a slight chance (a risk for me) that your BigY will split the Z275 / Z257 / Z256 haplogroup in two, since you were only tested for Z257 you could theoretically be Z257- but Z275+ and/or Z256+

Kind regards
Anders

A.Morup
11-28-2017, 08:04 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

Just saw that a guy who is a descendant of a "Clément Le Bel b. 1858 and d. 1942" is in the FamilyTreeDNA "U152" project.
And he is also BY3604+

He has done Y37 at FamilyTreeDNA - are you in any way considering doing a Y37 test?
There are some good discounts + coupons out there until end of december - just tell me if you are interested!

hadleyro1
04-23-2018, 04:16 PM
I've done the Big Y along with 2 other members of the Hadley surname project at FTDNA. I'd be very interested in connecting with any Bunbury family members to see if we can make a connection. Cheshire is close to where several Hadley wills using the name Simon were listed and our most known ancestor Simon Hadley left Ireland for the US in 1710.

alchemist223
12-19-2018, 10:50 AM
I've tested positive for Z367 as well, and additionally I am also of French-Canadian descent on my paternal line. Is this subclade/SNP common in France?

A.Morup
12-19-2018, 11:01 AM
Hi "Arobert"!

First of all welcome to Z367 ;-)
What have you tested below Z367 - both positive and negative? And where have you tested?
If you answer, I might help you get closer to your ancestry - but you'll end up with BigY sooner or later ;)

We know that the St.Pierre and LeBel families from Canada / France / Normandy are BY3604+ but else Z367 is mostly Celtic.
See this map of the location of the most distant ancestor of all who have tested Z367+ (https://www.google.dk/maps/@50.5911703,3.5806741,5z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m2!6m1!1s1Mh_tNzR0y0cSs8vk-K0AL-W-JUc) in the FTDNA U152 project.

For the current Z367 tree (with national origins) have a look at Ytree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=441) and Yfull (https://yfull.com/tree/R-Z367/).

Best regards
Anders

A.Morup
12-19-2018, 11:39 AM
OK - found your post here: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?14858-R-U152-gt-L2-gt-Z367-gt-Z34-gt-CTS9044
You have single-SNP tested for Z367 at FTDNA and been found positive.

In the future, I would advice you to use Yseq.net for single SNP testing and SNP panels rather than FTDNA.
Much cheaper, a bit faster and good quality!

My best advice for you is to stop further SNP / SNP-panel testing. When you go below Z367 there is not much more information out there anyway.
Instead, consider to save up for BigY - or buy on the current sale (499$) - I even suspect some good offer coming up in the last days of 2018.
With BigY you can join Ytree and Yfull and help develop the human haplotree.

If you ever buy a BigY, all money spent on single SNP tests as well as SNP panels will be wasted money - BigY has it all.

Best whishes
Anders

alchemist223
12-20-2018, 09:51 AM
Thanks for your advice, Anders.
The Z367 SNP has been my only purchase at FTDNA aside from buying 12 markers (after transfer). Although I would love to get the Big Y test, it is unfortunately quite expensive, and will have to wait until it gets less costly. I do plan on upgrading to 37 markers in the near future. In the process, I am hoping to learn more about my paternal origins.

A.Morup
12-20-2018, 10:15 AM
Y37 is a good test, but the BigY includes the Y111 test. The price of upgrading Y12 > Y37 > BigY+Y111 is more expensive than going straight to BigY+Y111.

Better just to put aside some BigY $$$' every month until the next sale...

anglesqueville
12-20-2018, 11:18 AM
Hi all, I was not aware of the existence of this thread. I'm Z367+ (with Yseq), and didn't get further below. My direct male paternal line is from northern Normandy (region of the Saâne river, in the county of Dieppe). The farthest I went through genealogic evidence is the XVIIIth century, and couldn't find anybody elsewhere, therefore I have nothing very exciting to tell you. Just a friendly hello!

A.Morup
12-20-2018, 01:32 PM
A warm welcome to Z367 to you too :-)
Make sure you read the links posted on the first post on this thread - some good info on Z367 there!
And as always, I really hope that you will do BigY one day to help us grow the Z367 haplotree. BigY discovers new roads for others to follow - single SNP testing and SNP-packs only follow the roads already discovered by BigYs...

alchemist223
12-21-2018, 06:23 AM
My direct male paternal line is from northern Normandy (region of the Saâne river, in the county of Dieppe). Just a friendly hello!

Oddly enough, my paternal line comes from Normandy as well. I wonder if Z367 is common there, as I believe that is where the origin of the OP's paternal line occurs as well. Thanks for the hello.

anglesqueville
12-21-2018, 07:32 AM
Oddly enough, my paternal line comes from Normandy as well. I wonder if Z367 is common there, as I believe that is where the origin of the OP's paternal line occurs as well. Thanks for the hello.

I'm tempted to speculate that Z367 was a major subclade for the L2 of the Celts Belgae, and therefore it may be common in Normandy, at least north of the river Seine. But without serious statistics, it's only speculation.

alchemist223
12-22-2018, 05:06 AM
I'm tempted to speculate that Z367 was a major subclade for the L2 of the Celts Belgae, and therefore it may be common in Normandy, at least north of the river Seine. But without serious statistics, it's only speculation.

Yup, we're gonna have to wait for some ancient DNA to learn more about this subclade and how it spread. And possibly about our common ancestor :).

A.Morup
12-29-2018, 12:15 PM
Hi all! I have been away on holidays and a bit silent. There seems to be a Norman cluster of Z367 and maybe even the subgroup BY3604.
For the last days of 2018, BigY is on sale at FamilyTreeDNA for 'only' 450 USD with the coupon code 'JINGLE10'.
Worth considering, if you have any funds left post-Christmas.
Best wishes for the new year!

A.Morup
02-19-2019, 08:52 AM
Hi all BY3604 testers!

My new homepage with the latest developments and news on BY3604 is up and running!

http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/

Questions are of course also answered here, but the page above is a good start, if you want to know more about BY3604!

/ Anders

alchemist223
05-14-2019, 05:58 PM
Just tested positive for Z33 at YSEQ.

A.Morup
05-15-2019, 08:49 AM
Just tested positive for Z33 at YSEQ.
Very interesting!
Are you testing single-SNP or a panel? The Yseq panels include all the known sub-clades.

BY3604 (my HG) is a very big part of Z33 - see here: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1616

Please keep us informed of any progres!
/ Anders

alchemist223
05-15-2019, 02:01 PM
Tested a single SNP, per the advice of the U152 project administrator.

A.Morup
05-15-2019, 03:52 PM
The U152 project admin is quite good at that ;-)
You might ask him, if he is ready to predict you to be BY3604 too, but I know that he most probably already would have advised you to test BY3604 if he had any indications that this could be the case.
Now we only wait until you do that BigY 700 that will help us expand the haplotree ;-)

BTW - where does your oldest paternal ancestor come from?

alchemist223
05-16-2019, 05:59 PM
I can trace back my oldest paternal ancestor to this town in France (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9veillon,_Orne) in 1631, who had the surname of "Boulay". I am kit #B286699 in the U152 project, and I really would like to do the Big Y but at $629 it is unfortunately quite expensive. If I do not do the Big Y, the admin recommended that I upgrade to 37 or 67 STR markers.

A.Morup
05-20-2019, 09:23 AM
Hi there!
According to our current results, there seems to be an important Norman vector in BY3604 and it therefore fits very well with the story of Z33 / BY3604 that your paternal ancestor comes from Normandy in France.

Two things you can do now:
Take a chance and test for BY3604 (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=38003) at Yseq (only 18$ - just use the code "IDONTNEEDAKIT" in order not to pay for the kit + postage again).
Better: Save up 499$ and buy a BigY 700 next time that is is on sale - it happens about 2-3 times a year.
BigY is the ultimate test - the Yseq method is one step at a time.

Anyway welcome in the Z33 group :-)
And do not forget to read about BY3604 here - most of it is also valid for Z33: http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/

/ Anders

alchemist223
05-20-2019, 09:43 AM
Appreciate the advice. I am not new here, but rather had a change in my username. There is one other kit in my paternal line which has tested 37 STRs but has no SNP testing.

DAMIGNY
06-25-2019, 02:01 PM
Hi, I’m new to the site. I’m also Z367, and I’ve asked Family to do some more analysis. My genealogy is known until 1200 apres of the family archives. It is of the old Normand nobility made by Rollon viking.I come from a village near saint lo, Normandy invaded by the viking in 960.I thought I would find a Viking origin, but Z367 is Italianceltique from what I read.
Unless you have an illigitimate-born ancestor, there’s no doubt about my family’s Viking origin. Someone has an idea about the possible link between the Z367 and the viking.
Good day

A.Morup
06-25-2019, 02:45 PM
Hi Damigny!

Welcome to the R-Z367 family :)

Which test has given you the R-Z367 result? Maybe I can help you find out some more details...

Also, I always get a bit suspecious when people claim to be descendants of Rollo the viking as he tends to show up in many unveryfied family trees all around the world!
But would he then be in your direct paternal line (your fathers, farthers, fathers, farthers, farthers, fathers...)?
Remember that Y-DNA and Y-DNA haplogroups (like R-Z367) are only inherited in direct male lines!

I invite you to have a look around at my BY3604 homepage (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/) - there are many links that are also useful for R-Z367 testers!

Best regards
Anders

DAMIGNY
06-25-2019, 05:31 PM
Bonjour , je ne dit pas que je suis descendant de rollon. Je dis que ma famille est d'une genealogie connue et comme descendant des vikings, et que rollon a formait la noblesse normande. Mon ancetre a été guillotiné à la revolution, ( jean nicolas leroy ) et que mes freres et moi sommes les derniers descendant de cette famille. Notre blason veut dire " venu des croisade blessé et vainqueur".https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k56642609.r=leroy%20d%27amigny?rk=21459;2.
Ma famille possede par ailleurs , des parchemins familiaux dont les plus anciens dates de 1250.

J'ai fait le test sur family.

DAMIGNY
06-25-2019, 05:47 PM
Hi, I didn’t say I was descended from Rollon. on the other hand my family is of a known genealogy and descendant of the Vikings, and that Rollon made the Normand nobility. My ancestor was guillotined at the revolution (jean nicolas Leroy) and my free and I are the last representatives of this family. The coat of arms of my family means: "return from the wounded and victorious crusades". I did the test on Family.

I’m just trying to find a connection between genetics and genealogy.
Sincerely,
Thank you for answering.

A.Morup
06-26-2019, 09:23 AM
Bonjour Damigny!

Quel test as-tu pris chez FamilyTreeDNA - le Y37 ou le BigY?

Il est vraiment important de comprendre que ton ADN-Y provient uniquement de ta lignée paternelle - le père de ton père de ton père de ton père, etc.
Qui est ton ancêtre paternel le plus éloigné dans ta lignée paternelle directe (nom, année, lieu de naissance)?

Tout porte à croire que le R-Z367 a aussi des branches normandes. Par conséquent, le R-Z367 n’exclut pas des ancêtres normands.

Meilleurs vœux
Anders

DAMIGNY
06-26-2019, 11:14 AM
the oldest known Leroy is guillaume Leroy knight of the temple, burned under philippe le bell ( king of France) on 28/03/1310.It seems that the name LEROY( no proof) comes from the last name "LORE" who gave the name of the village from which my family comes. Village "the Lorey" next to saint lo. There would have been a reversal of letter. Lorey gives LEROY. the family " de Lore" is quoted in parchments of the 11th century
I have make Y37 test that gave me M269. I did an additional search with 67 SNP that gives me Z367. I asked again for a supplement with 160 SNP, I’ll have the answer in a month.
bonne journée

A.Morup
06-26-2019, 11:21 AM
Hi Damigny!

So Guillaume Leroy is your direct paternal line - no woman in between you and him?
I hope that you will do BigY (and Yfull) one day - much more fun than with the STR-values (Y37, Y67 and Y111).

Are you a member of the FTDNA U152 project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r-1b-u152/about/background)?
Else that would be a very good idea!

You are also very welcome to send me your FTDNA STR-values for a second opinion - just send an Anthrogenica message with your values (do not post here).

Best wishes
Anders

DAMIGNY
06-26-2019, 05:02 PM
Yes, guillaume Leroy is my direct ancestor, with the same "Y".
I am not part of any group, such as the U152. I will send you the few STRs I have, but to what address? Perhaps it is preferable to wait for the definitive result, since I have asked on family for new analyses.

DAMIGNY
06-26-2019, 05:12 PM
I was wondering if you might be able to answer. I did my DNA on " my heritage", then I downloaded my DNA with the genes and their location. I removed the "Y". Then I did the research on family that doesn’t give the "y". As a result, I noticed that I was the carrier of the M222 gene and I am not M222 because the family STRs do not match. I also carry other genes that are not part of the phylogenic tree of Z367. How can one be a carrier of genes that do not belong to the phylogenic tree, as a carrier of the M222 without being M222.?
I know genealogy, but I don’t understand genetics.
Sincerely Morup

A.Morup
06-27-2019, 06:58 AM
Hi Damigny!

I have sent you a PM regarding the STR-values.

Normally FTDNA does not answer haplogroup questions - you get that help from the FTDNA projects.
Therefore it would be a good idea if you join the "U152 project" at FTDNA - they have some very skilled administrators.

But I get very confused when you now mention a DNA test at MyHeritage?
The DNA test at MyHeritage is an autosomal DNA test (like FamilyFinder at FTDNA) that does not give Y-DNA at all.
If you have uploaded your DNA to MyHertiage, then that must be the FamilyFinder test, which does not include Y-DNA.
So in short - there is no Y-DNA information at MyHeritage as far as I know.

Best wishes
Anders

A.Morup
06-27-2019, 12:01 PM
Hi Damigny!

Thanks for the data you emailed.
As far as I can see, you have taken the Y37 and also an extra "SNP pack" that confirms that you are in fact R-Z367.
I also understand that you have ordered an extra "SNP-pack" to get further below R-Z367.

I would still recommend you to join the FTDNA U152 project from your FTDNA profile - it allows us all to share our DNA information.
If you had got in contact with me before, I would have recommended you the BigY test instead of the two "SNP-packs". It is more expensive but also a better test.

Now we wait for the result of the R-Z367 test - it would be interesting if you are also R-BY3604, but it does not look like that from the Y37 data.

Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
06-28-2019, 08:17 PM
Hi Anders! I've just been identified as Z34 by Yseq. I have now to ask them for BY3604.

A.Morup
07-01-2019, 01:04 PM
Hi Anglesqueville!

Very interesting! Defining yourself as a Norman, I believe that there is a good chance that you are BY3604+ too!
What is your furthest paternal ancestor?

And if you are BY3604+ we other BY3604 testers really hope that you will do BigY + Ytree (free) + Yfull (49$) some day :)

Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
07-03-2019, 05:54 AM
Hi Anders! I just received my last Yseq result! I am BY3604+. Happy to join your tiny group. Yes, I'll certainly buy a BigY some day, but not right now. I'm mainly interested in autosomal genetics, and I have to buy a new computer with a powerful CPU. Money, money, money...

A.Morup
07-03-2019, 09:56 AM
Hi Anglesqueville!

Nice!
Welcome to our little "family" :)
I hope that you can get good use of my BY3604 homepage (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/) and join our work.

I would be very pleased if you would tell more about your furthest paternal ancestor - where and when was he born?

And doing a BigY is not a requirement to be part of our little team, but it does give something to all - a bigger tree to look at :P

Best wishes and welcome
Anders

anglesqueville
07-03-2019, 03:58 PM
Hi Anglesqueville!

Nice!
Welcome to our little "family" :)
I hope that you can get good use of my BY3604 homepage (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/) and join our work.

I would be very pleased if you would tell more about your furthest paternal ancestor - where and when was he born?

And doing a BigY is not a requirement to be part of our little team, but it does give something to all - a bigger tree to look at :P

Best wishes and welcome
Anders

Your homepage is very nice indeed. It is now in my favs. About my furthest known paternal ancestor, I have to ask my father. Anyway, he is not very far back in time, XVIIIth century if I remember, and born somewhere near the river Sâane, between Anglesqueville-sur-Sâane and Varangeville. This region is very predominantly of Anglo-Scandinavian toponymy, but with some old Celtic toponyms near the source (this is the region of the Eawy forest, which was very isolated until the second part of the XXth century. "Eawy" is a Celtic name, as is "Varvannes" a village near Anglesqueville). For those who read French, here is a very interesting page about the Celtic place name "Varvannes": https://warewenna.wordpress.com/sommaire/20-varenne-meme-radical-et-aussi-effacement-du-suffixe-interne-%E2%98%BCw/20d-waer%C9%99waenna-varvannes-et-taer%C9%99waenna-therouanne-le-sens-face-a-lenvironnement-designe/

anglesqueville
07-03-2019, 03:59 PM
double post

alchemist223
07-03-2019, 06:29 PM
Welcome to the club anglesqueville! Have you tested any STR markers at FTDNA? I would recommend doing so as they have the largest database among DNA testing companies and can provide you with important matches. As more BY3604+ results come in, it seems that it has a very significant presence in Normandy, considering that relatively few people of French descent participate in DNA testing.

anglesqueville
07-04-2019, 06:09 AM
alchemist: my U152 comes from 23&Me, all the subclades from Yseq. My FamilyFinder is only autosomal and Mt. Honestly so far I was not very interested in the uniparental stuff, perhaps while I'm much more concerned by genetics for itself than by genealogical matters. But this unexpected BY3604 is a new element. BigY is too expensive for me for the moment (as I explained I'm on the point to spend 2000 euros or so for a new big CPU, I cannot add a bigY to this). Question of priority...

A.Morup
07-04-2019, 08:57 PM
Hi Anglesqueville and Alchemist!

Thanks for the info on your paternal line and the link to the article - linguistics meet DNA ;)
And R-BY3604 surely has celtic roots, but somehow got woven into Norman families.

I tried to find Anglesqueville-sur-Sâane and Varangeville on Google Maps and it looks to me like the first is in Seine Maritime and the other one is in Meurthe-et-Moselle - that is quite far apart to say the least, or am I missing something?

My way into genetics started with classical genealogy, but then I heard some Danish podcasts by our local DNA researcher Eske Willerslev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eske_Willerslev) and got seriously hooked on DNA and human genetics. I started with autosomal DNA which supports genealogy very well, but found out that Y-DNA and haplogroups go far beyond the written sources and are much more deterministic (no mixing of DNA - just one straight line from son to father back in time). So now I have BigY tested myself, my maternal grandfather and the father of my maternal grandmother - three BigY and three different haplogroups (R1b, I-M253 and R1a), so a lot to learn and a lot of information.

The FTDNA STR-tests (Y37, Y67 and Y111) give much less than the BigY since STR-tests only give you the odds of being in family with your matches whereas BigY shows the exact branches to your matches and Yfull even gives pretty reliable estimates of the years back to the common ancestors. Unfortunately FTDNA still pushes STR-tests as a prerequisite do BigY (or at least Y111 is included in the BigY) instead of lowering the price of a pure BigY without Y111. But BigY beats STR-tests hands down...

So of course we hope that you two will do BigY one day to be placed in our tree and to expand the BY3604 haplotree.
But of course Anglesqueville also needs a good CPU, so we will wait patiently :typing:

Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
07-05-2019, 04:20 PM
About Varangeville: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varengeville-sur-Mer
Since 1964 Anglesqueville-sur-Saâne has become a hamlet of Val-de-Saâne: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val-de-Sa%C3%A2ne

A picture: the river Saâne near Biville (thanks to Wikipedia). Couldn't it be somewhere in Denmark?

31458

edit: just a link to a remarkable study of the norman toponymy that will interest our danish OP, and after that, I stop spoiling his thread! https://www.wikiwand.com/fr/Toponymie_normande . This text is in French, but I'm sure that Google Translate can make a good job with it, and anyway I guess that the context is rather enlightening for english-reading readers.

A.Morup
07-06-2019, 11:19 AM
Hi Anglesqueville!

Got it - thanks!
And yes - that picture could have been taken in Denmark too.

Please get back on this thread once you have more data on your most distant paternal ancestor, so we can name him and place him on the ever-growing BY3604 map (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/haplogroup-by3604-updates/by3604-june-2019/).

BTW I have a "Maîtrise en commerce international Anglais/Allemand" de l'Université de Savoie (année 1992), so I do manage the French texts :P

Now I will hold my breath until one of you Norman testers do a BigY (or any other WGS test) ;)

Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
07-12-2019, 09:41 PM
As you can see on my profile I've gone a bit forward, thanks to Yseq.

A.Morup
07-13-2019, 06:12 AM
Hi Anglesqueville!
Thanks for the update - very interesting!
Being Z275 puts you closer to the British Isles testers than the Norman St.Pierre.
Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
07-13-2019, 07:35 AM
Hi Anglesqueville!
Thanks for the update - very interesting!
Being Z275 puts you closer to the British Isles testers than the Norman St.Pierre.
Best wishes
Anders

I've ordered Y146179. Results at the beginning of next week.

A.Morup
07-13-2019, 07:47 AM
Hi Anglesqueville
You are moving fast! I share your interest in your SNP results, but at this detailed level of testing, I would rather suggest that you save your money for that 'final' BigY test instead of guessing SNPs. Sooner or later you will hit the wall where you start getting negative SNP results from the Yseq tests - and you have already been very lucky with your guesses.
Best wishes
Anders

anglesqueville
07-13-2019, 09:35 AM
Hi Anglesqueville
You are moving fast! I share your interest in your SNP results, but at this detailed level of testing, I would rather suggest that you save your money for that 'final' BigY test instead of guessing SNPs. Sooner or later you will hit the wall where you start getting negative SNP results from the Yseq tests - and you have already been very lucky with your guesses.
Best wishes
Anders

I think that now this will happen very soon: 31687

alchemist223
07-14-2019, 04:26 PM
Best of luck on your future SNP testing!

A.Morup
07-15-2019, 03:23 PM
Even though I would prefer that you save your money for a BigY, be aware that at Ytree there is a documented split of the Y146179 group into a much older CTS7352 group and the very young Y146179 group:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617

I am 95% sure that you are not Y146179+ but you might be CTS7352+

Best regards
Anders

anglesqueville
07-15-2019, 06:31 PM
Even though I would prefer that you save your money for a BigY, be aware that at Ytree there is a documented split of the Y146179 group into a much older CTS7352 group and the very young Y146179 group:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617

I am 95% sure that you are not Y146179+ but you might be CTS7352+

Best regards
Anders

I had come to the same conclusion (or expectation). CTS7352 is available on Yseq, and I'm already ready to order it. That said I would not be completely surprised if I happened to be eventually Y146179+. Ross Hadley seems to think of a Norman in William's infamous invasion army. I think the other way is possible as well: an English soldier during the Hundred Years' War. Answer for Y146179 likely tomorrow, on this thread. Btw nobody seems to expect that I could as well be simply a raw Z275 *?

rosshdly
07-15-2019, 06:53 PM
Hello,

It would appear Anders and you have discussed the CTS7352 SNP. I am sure he has also filled you in on how the derivation of that SNP came to be and why it’s the key dividing point between the branch the Hadleys are on and everyone else in Anders’ group. So far, there haven’t been any CTS7352+ non-Hadley men. Clearly we need more people to test this so that older branches can be separated and common origins can be brought closer to the present.

As for our origins, well, one of the men in the retinue of Rainald the Sheriff of Shropshire was a Goisfrid (i.e. Geoffrey) who held the manor of Hadley in that county shortly after the Conquest. We think it was one of his sons that was granted the lordship of that manor and became known as William de Hadley. He had several sons and we can infer that the concentration of Hadleys in the West Midlands probably originated with him. Your comment about the English soldier during the Hundred Year’s War is interesting. We do know that a few Hadleys served in France during the later stages of that war. It’s always possible that could be a connection if your SNP testing continued to match us.

Ross

alchemist223
07-15-2019, 09:54 PM
Welcome Y-DNA cousin!

anglesqueville
07-25-2019, 06:17 AM
As expected:

SampleID Ordered Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
1974 free A60 ChrY 16294089 16294089 T-
1974 free A10984 ChrY 17301576 17301576 A-
1974 free A14635 ChrY 15868930 15868930 A-
1974 2019-07-07 A14635 ChrY 15868930 15868930 A-
1974 free A20030 ChrY 16294137 16294137 A-
1974 free ACT7220 ChrY 22355319 22355319 G-
1974 free BY1434 ChrY 16294102 16294102 A-
1974 free BY3604 ChrY 22355216 22355216 A+
1974 2019-06-28 BY3604 ChrY 22355216 22355216 A+
1974 free BY6972 ChrY 15869028 15869028 C-
1974 free BY13220 ChrY 22355120 22355120 C-
1974 free BY36390 ChrY 15868895 15868895 C-
1974 free BY118952 ChrY 15868913 15868913 A-
1974 free BY118953 ChrY 15868922 15868922 C-
1974 free BY118954 ChrY 15868985 15868985 C-
1974 free BY118955 ChrY 15869029 15869029 G-
1974 free BY121769 ChrY 16293976 16293976 A-
1974 free BY121770 ChrY 16294015 16294015 C-
1974 free BY121771 ChrY 16294145 16294145 C-
1974 free BY128893 ChrY 17301318 17301318 T-
1974 free BY128894 ChrY 17301612 17301612 A-
1974 free BY128895 ChrY 17301669 17301669 G-
1974 free BY150381 ChrY 22355098 22355098 G-
1974 free BY150382 ChrY 22355350 22355350 C-
1974 free BY150383 ChrY 22355368 22355368 C-
1974 free BY163913 ChrY 17301562 17301562 T-
1974 free BY191584 ChrY 17301619 17301619 T-
1974 free BY191585 ChrY 17301663 17301663 A-
1974 free BY200096 ChrY 15868868 15868868 G-
1974 free BY207679 ChrY 15869026 15869026 A-
1974 free CTS10340 ChrY 17301403 17301403 A-
1974 2015-02-12 DYS492 ChrY 15302403 15302613 12
1974 free DYS492 ChrY 15302403 15302613 12
1974 free F2662 ChrY 15868978 15868978 G-
1974 free F23658 ChrY 17301622 17301622 A-
1974 free FGC8234 ChrY 22355304 22355304 T-
1974 free FGC9970 ChrY 22355358 22355358 A-
1974 free FGC10338 ChrY 18896341 18896341 C-
1974 free FGC21572 ChrY 9973348 9973348 G-
1974 free FGC35494 ChrY 16294171 16294171 A-
1974 free FGC55337 ChrY 16293945 16293945 C-
1974 free FGC61381 ChrY 16293894 16293894 A-
1974 free FGC87868 ChrY 17301619 17301619 T-
1974 free FT30706 ChrY 15868997 15868997 C-
1974 free FT30790 ChrY 16294119 16294119 G-
1974 free FT34943 ChrY 16293846 16293846 C-
1974 free FT54563 ChrY 17301570 17301570 A-
1974 free FT59518 ChrY 16293885 16293885 T-
1974 free FT70274 ChrY 15868968 15868968 G-
1974 free L2 ChrY 5887509 5887509 T+
1974 2015-03-30 L2 ChrY 5887509 5887509 T+
1974 free L55 ChrY 17301455 17301455 G-
1974 free L891 ChrY 17301534 17301534 G-
1974 free L910 ChrY 5093043 5093043 T-
1974 free L1176 ChrY 16293915 16293915 C-
1974 free L1198 ChrY 16293908 16293908 C-
1974 free L1362 ChrY 5093093 5093093 C-
1974 free L1394 ChrY 17301502 17301502 A-
1974 free MF11176 ChrY 22355295 22355295 T-
1974 free MF15924 ChrY 16293989 16293989 T-
1974 free MF18662 ChrY 17301392 17301392 C-
1974 free MF34460 ChrY 17301669 17301669 G-
1974 free MF50278 ChrY 17301677 17301677 T-
1974 free PH3578 ChrY 15869099 15869099 A-
1974 free S206 ChrY 5093077 5093077 A-
1974 free S255 ChrY 9973185 9973185 C+
1974 free S368 ChrY 16293984 16293984 C+
1974 free S485 ChrY 18896437 18896437 C-
1974 free S22236 ChrY 17301567 17301567 C-
1974 free S22237 ChrY 17301605 17301605 A-
1974 free V7026 ChrY 15868834 15868834 G-
1974 free V7388 ChrY 17301365 17301365 A-
1974 free Y9955 ChrY 15868834 15868834 G-
1974 free Y12117 ChrY 16294102 16294102 A-
1974 free Y12121 ChrY 5887290 5887290 C-
1974 free Y32413 ChrY 15869143 15869143 A-
1974 free Y35910 ChrY 17301454 17301454 C-
1974 free Y44621 ChrY 22355134 22355134 A-
1974 free Y54031 ChrY 15868954 15868954 A-
1974 free Y54551 ChrY 16293957 16293957 A-
1974 free Y59882 ChrY 22355280 22355280 C-
1974 free Y73507 ChrY 16293834 16293834 A-
1974 free Y73508 ChrY 16293944 16293944 G-
1974 free Y73509 ChrY 16294076 16294076 G-
1974 free Y100861 ChrY 15868817 15868817 T-
1974 free Y101926 ChrY 16293900 16293900 A-
1974 free Y101927 ChrY 16294088 16294088 T-
1974 free Y101928 ChrY 16294152 16294152 T-
1974 free Y104654 ChrY 17301371 17301371 G-
1974 free Y104655 ChrY 17301384 17301384 G-
1974 free Y104656 ChrY 17301392 17301392 C-
1974 free Y113011 ChrY 22355136 22355136 T-
1974 free Y131892 ChrY 15868895 15868895 C-
1974 free Y137709 ChrY 15869067 15869067 T-
1974 free Y146179 ChrY 7882647 7882647 T-
1974 2019-07-13 Y146179 ChrY 7882647 7882647 T-
1974 free Y152382 ChrY 16294073 16294073 G-
1974 free Y158497 ChrY 17301367 17301367 G-
1974 free Y172864 ChrY 16294195 16294195 T-
1974 free YP828 ChrY 16293852 16293852 C-
1974 free Z34 ChrY 16293984 16293984 C+
1974 2019-06-25 Z34 ChrY 16293984 16293984 C+
1974 free Z36 ChrY 5093077 5093077 A-
1974 2015-03-07 Z36 ChrY 5093077 5093077 A-
1974 free Z68 ChrY 18896437 18896437 C-
1974 2015-06-09 Z68 ChrY 18896437 18896437 C-
1974 free Z275 ChrY 17301386 17301386 C+
1974 2019-07-09 Z275 ChrY 17301386 17301386 C+
1974 free Z367 ChrY 9973185 9973185 C+
1974 2015-06-20 Z367 ChrY 9973185 9973185 C+
1974 free Z1612 ChrY 15868978 15868978 G-
1974 free Z3013 ChrY 16294089 16294089 T-
1974 free Z3996 ChrY 9973429 9973429 T-
1974 free Z8357 ChrY 18896500 18896500 G-
1974 free Z9422 ChrY 15868834 15868834 G-
1974 free Z10907 ChrY 16293859 16293859 C-
1974 free Z10908 ChrY 16293964 16293964 T-
1974 free Z10993 ChrY 18896574 18896574 C-
1974 free Z17031 ChrY 5887144 5887144 G-
1974 free Z30313 ChrY 18896548 18896548 A-
1974 free Z35100 ChrY 15869028 15869028 C-
1974 free Z35185 ChrY 17301679 17301679 G-
1974 free Z41296 ChrY 16294179 16294179 C-

A.Morup
07-25-2019, 10:25 AM
Hi Anglesqueville!

Yes - I would have been surprised if you where Y146179+
You could test for CTS7352 at Yseq now, but we would all much more prefer to see you save the money for a future BigY (or Yseq WGS test).

Best wishes
Anders

Titane
07-26-2019, 03:16 PM
Yes I can trace my St. Pierre family to Normandy, France in the Rouen, Gouy areas to the early/mid 1500's, my oldest paper trail grandfather was Colin de Saint Pierre. The DE Saint Pierre family was a well known family in Normandy since the time of William the Conqueror and it was said the family had castles in the area of St. Lo, Normandy. A younger son of the St. Pierre's went to England with Hugh Lupus(William the Conqueror's cousin) and settled in Cheshire and took the surname of Bunbury.

St. Pierre :

So we are related...
According to the Fichier Origine, here is what we know about Pierre De Saint-Pierre dit Dessaint :

SAINT-PIERRE (DE) / DESSAINT, Pierre 243715
Statut Marié
Date de naissance 26-04-1643
Date de baptême 26-04-1643
Lieu d'origine Rouen (St-Étienne-des-Tonneliers) (Seine-Maritime) 76540
Lieu actuel Rouen
Parents Michel DE SAINT-PIERRE et Françoise Engran
Date de mariage des parents 29-10-1634
Lieu de mariage des parents Rouen (St-Étienne-des-Tonneliers) (76540)
Première mention au pays 1666
Occupation à l'arrivée Migrant
Date de mariage 24-04-1679
Lieu du mariage Ste-Famille, ÎÎle-d'Orléans
Conjoint Marie Gerbert
Date de décès Avant le 04-01-1726
Remarques En 1667, il est domestique de Charles Cloutier. Le 17-09-1634 à Rouen (St-Cande-le-Vieil), bans. Une soeur et un frère sont baptisés à Rouen (St-Étienne-des-Tonneliers) : Anne, 24-05-1637 et Antoine, 18-03-1640. Son père est né à Rouen (St-Cande-le-Jeune). Sa mère Françoise Engran (Antoine et Françoise Fleury), b. 00-10-1610 à Rouen (St-Étienne-des-Tonneliers), citée Françoyse Engren (1634). Une plaque commémorative est apposée en 1991 dans l'église Saint-Pierre à Gouy (76313).
Identification* DGFQ, p. 1030
Chercheur(s) Gérard St-Pierre ; Denis Savard ; Éric Mardoc ; Lise Dandonneau
Référence* NOF, vol. 11, p. 155
Date de modification 2016-11-10

* Pour voir la définition des outils de référence, cliquez sur "Outils de référence" dans le menu de droite.
* Pour voir la définition des acronymes des références, cliquez sur "Définition des acronymes" dans le menu de droite.
référence : https://www.fichierorigine.com/recherche?numero=243715
It is also interesting to note that Gerbet is a surname of Germanic origin.

A.Morup
07-26-2019, 03:32 PM
Hi Titane!

Very interesting - do you have Y-DNA from your St. Pierre line at hand?

That would be very interesting to test (BigY?) and compare with the Canadian St.Pierre line.

You can see the Canadian St.Pierre BigYs here:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617

Kind regards
Anders

Titane
07-26-2019, 03:43 PM
Hi St. Pierre!

Wow - an ancestor with his own Wikipedia page (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Saint-Pierre) - cool!

Have you considered doing som Y-DNA reseach on the St. Pierre family?
It seems like the family and the descendants are well documented, and there is a real family name - a great gift for starting such a project.

Here is an example at Ytree: http://ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=957

And here some examples of "custom panels" at Yseq that thanks to extensive Y-DNA research can place you exactly on the family tree of some old families:
Royce family panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=29948)
Goodrich family panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=11332)

Just be aware that such family panels take a handful of BigYs and some serious work, but at the end you can place any "St. Pierre" on the family tree with just a few SNP tests.

Being a Dane, that is not so easy, since we had patronyms until the end of the 19th century instead of family names - so e.g. Jens Nielsen would have two sons and they would be called e.g. "Niels Jensen" and "Hans Jensen" and their sons would then be "Jens Nielsen" (first son of first son) and "Jens Hansen" (first son of second son) and so on. No real family names on my side :-(

You can see what I did with my BigY results here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10121-My-private-SNP-project

And still waiting to hear the result of your final haplogroup :)

/ Anders

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famille_Saint-Pierre
The page also talks about some of the ancestral links being « légendaire ». They say they cannot seriously go back more than four generations in France. It would be great if DNA tests can help consolidate the genealogy.

Titane
07-26-2019, 03:48 PM
Hi Titane!

Very interesting - do you have Y-DNA from your St. Pierre line at hand?

That would be very interesting to test (BigY?) and compare with the Canadian St.Pierre line.

You can see the Canadian St.Pierre BigYs here:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617

Kind regards
Anders
No, this is not my surname. I have six lines to that ancestor, from two of the daughters and one son - Kamouraska is a very endogamous area. So we are looking at autosomal here. If St. Pierre sends me a personal message with a Gedmatch number, we can see if we have genes in common.

I have not looked at the French Heritage Project to see if it’s triangulated or not, but in my mind there is no doubt that it is the same ancestral line.

DAMIGNY
07-27-2019, 06:21 AM
Bonjour Titane,
Si tes ancetres etaient compagnon de GUILLAUME LE CONQUERANT, ils viennent de Saint Pierre langers, à coté d'avranches. Un seigneur de st pierre, réclamé pour ancetre par Sir Bumbery, baronnet du comté de Sulfolk, vint à la conquete à la suite de Hugues, comtes d'Avranches. Dans le courant du XIIeme siecle, les seigneurs de st pierre jouèrent un role important dans l'histoire politique et religieuse de l'Avranchin. Le cartulaire de l'abbaye de la Lucerne nous fait connaitre qu'en 1146 Henricus Sancto Petro fut temoin dans une convention passé entre l'abbé tesselin et celui du Mont Saint Michel. En 1158, Philippe de Saint Pierre donna au chamoines de la Lucerne la moitié des deniers de la paroisse de Saint Pierre Langers. Ces deux donnateurs etaient les fils ou les petits fils du Seigneur de la Conquéte.
Il existe egalement une commune " Saint pierre église" , dans le val de saire ( nord du costentin) à coté de Barfleur ( s'est de Barfleur qu'est parti GUILLAUME LE CONQUERANT pour la conquéte). Mais aucune notion de compagnon dans cette commune)
Il existe egalement " saint pierre de Semilly" arrondissement de Saint Lo avec un compagnon de GUILLAUME LE CONQUERANT, mais ce compagnon s'appelait SEMILLY. La famille de SEMILLY est une grande famille noble Normande.
Le compagnon de GUILLAUME etait de " Saint Pierre Langers " avec un chateau fortifié détruit par les Anglais pendant la guerre de cent an.
( désolé d'ecrire en Français, mais j'ai du mal avec l'anglais et s'est intraduisible).

A.Morup
07-27-2019, 04:12 PM
Hi Damigny, Titane, St.Pierre and more!

I am on holiday and will try to do it short.

It seems that there is a written and trustworthy family history for the Norman St. Pierre family with a possible link to the English Bumbery line.
You have the unique possibility to prove this history with Y-DNA. It will take some FTDNA BigYs and even more (cheap!) Yseq single SNP tests, but you can prove this link, if it exists.
We already have a Canadian St.Pierre BigY, but it would be really interesting to find a St. Pierre tester from France and a Bumbery tester too.
It is a project for you to start, but I will gladly help you with a testing strategy that minimises costs and gives maximum results.
However, please be aware that when spanning over that long periods of time, the genealogy might be true but the biology can be different - some people with the right and true line might come out with 'wrong' results - that is the downside of the DNA 'game'.

Anybody willing to take the lead on a Norman St. Pierre project?

Best wishes
Anders

DAMIGNY
07-27-2019, 05:29 PM
hello Anders
I have received the results and I am S1505. I find no one who is S1505. When I look at the correspondence, I find the most people in Estonia, southern Norway and Sweden, northern U.K., and a lot in Ireland. Good day.

A.Morup
07-27-2019, 06:43 PM
Hi Damigny!

Here is your 'family' at Yfull:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-S1505/

And here at Ytree:
https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1301&star=false

I think it is very Westeuropean, but also very diffuse. Old merchants, sailors or warriors?

Best regards
Anders

DAMIGNY
07-28-2019, 09:12 AM
As I told you, I’ve known my "Y" ancestors since 1205, since I even have family archives ( parchemins ). The region of SAINT LO was invaded by Irish Vikings. family comes from the time of ROLLON, since the old Norman nobility was created by the companions of ROLLON.
Can I be an illegitimate child in my ancestry? it's very possible over 1000 years . I think we will know more over time, with more people doing their DNA, and with the levies on the Vikings.

Best regards
merci Anders

St. Pierre
07-28-2019, 08:05 PM
Hi, I did contact an older gentleman named Roger St. Pierre who has roots in Cheshire, England and he has done along with his brother Roy much tracing of the St. Pierre family tree in England and he wrote me this

Dear Adam:Lovely hearing from you. if you look at my website (www.rogerstpierre.co.uk) and refer to the ‘family’ section you will find the history of our branch of the St. Pierre family, as researched by my younger brother, Roy and note that we have Cheshire roots. It seems that we arrived in England from Normandy around 1192 (at the time of Richard Coeur de Lion and had probably been settled in Normandy from Scandinavia as Vi king settlers since circa 800. So there is every chance that we could be related, however distantly. I grew up thinking my name to be rather unique but the advent of the internet disavowed me of that impression as I discovered that the total tally of Roger St Pierre namesakes runs into three figures, mostly in Canada and the USA. Interestingly, while there are lots of villages in France that bear the name St. Pierre it is a rather uncommon family name there (you’ll find more St PIerre’s in the London phone book than in the Paris tome while I once visited a tiny hamlet in New Hampshire that had 13 listings. After this I returned mail and asked him about his possible interest in doing some YDNA testing but haven't heard back since, hoping he does send me another.

Titane
07-28-2019, 09:28 PM
So St.Pierre and I are indeed related and share autosomal DNA,
Chr B37 Start Pos'n B37 End Pos'n Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
6 97,070,100 106,319,854 7.6 1,407
13 29,978,751 39,685,567 17.1 1,962

through my mother. So I unfortunately will not be able to play the game here. :(

DAMIGNY
07-29-2019, 06:56 AM
Dear St Pierre and Titane
I can assure you that the st pierre companions of guillaume came from st pierre langer. This is my home region and I know la Manche "like my pocket" and I am also passionate about the history of the Norman nobility.
St pierre à Gouy is in " la SOMME" no in "NORMANDIE".
I’m sorry to pollute you with history on a genetic site, but I can’t help but write when I hear things related to Normandy.
Bonne journée à vous tous
D' AMIGNY

DAMIGNY
07-29-2019, 06:57 AM
Dear St Pierre and Titane
I can assure you that the st pierre companions of guillaume came from st pierre langer. This is my home region and I know la Manche "like my pocket" and I am also passionate about the history of the Norman nobility.
St pierre à Gouy is in " la SOMME" no in "NORMANDIE".
I’m sorry to pollute you with history on a genetic site, but I can’t help but write when I hear things related to Normandy.
Bonne journée à vous tous
D' AMIGNY

A.Morup
07-29-2019, 07:12 AM
Just a short message written on my phone from the beach :P

Damigny: Being on haplogroup Z367 is not in contradiction with Norman ancestry. Haplogroups are not equal to ethnicity even though some ethnic groups have higher proportions of some haplogroups.

St. Pierre: Seems like you have found an interesting tester. I think you should push a little more for a sample.
Here is a link you can use for inspiration or just send along : http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/why-do-we-want-your-dna/

Titane: Wow - autosomal DNA confirmation of such an old relationship. That is a rare 'hit'. Is there any chance that you can help us trace a male tester from your side of the family?

I will be back with longer posts next week
Anders

Titane
07-29-2019, 11:53 AM
Just a short message written on my phone from the beach :P

Damigny: Being on haplogroup Z367 is not in contradiction with Norman ancestry. Haplogroups are not equal to ethnicity even though some ethnic groups have higher proportions of some haplogroups.

St. Pierre: Seems like you have found an interesting tester. I think you should push a little more for a sample.
Here is a link you can use for inspiration or just send along : http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/why-do-we-want-your-dna/
Titane: Wow - autosomal DNA confirmation of such an old relationship. That is a rare 'hit'. Is there any chance that you can help us trace a male tester from your side of the family?

I will be back with longer posts next week
Anders

This is not rare in highly endogamous areas. I have over 50 000 genocousins on Ancestry. For most of them it is impossible to identify which is the MRCA, because there are several lines that go back 9 - 10 generations. The problem is to find someone with a sufficiently complete family tree to ensure that it is the same St-Pierre ancestor and then, also able/willing to spend the money for Y testing.
There is a y-DNA testing site in French on Facebook led by the same admins ad FT-DNA French Héritage. A call for volunteers there may have more chance.

Titane
07-29-2019, 12:13 PM
Dear St Pierre and Titane
I can assure you that the st pierre companions of guillaume came from st pierre langer. This is my home region and I know la Manche "like my pocket" and I am also passionate about the history of the Norman nobility.
St pierre à Gouy is in " la SOMME" no in "NORMANDIE".
I’m sorry to pollute you with history on a genetic site, but I can’t help but write when I hear things related to Normandy.
Bonne journée à vous tous
D' AMIGNY
Gouy is 14 km south of Rouen, «*vu d’ici c’est la Normandie*»! Also we are looking at 17th century boundaries.

Helgenes50
07-29-2019, 12:14 PM
Deleted

Helgenes50
07-29-2019, 01:15 PM
Gouy is 14 km south of Rouen, «*vu d’ici c’est la Normandie*»! Also we are looking at 17th century boundaries.

Looks like you are not talking about the same Gouy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouy

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saint-Pierre-%C3%A0-Gouy

DAMIGNY
07-29-2019, 02:02 PM
as far as Norman genealogy is concerned, it is very well known because the family keeps their proofs of nobility.
For st pierre, you will not find the name of st pierre in the list of guillem conquering because the ancestor of st pierre were "meurdrac"
sources VIRDOvix ( club de genealogie avranches).
Robert I MEURDRAC ( MURDRAC) compagnon de Guillaume le conquerant donne roger et guillaume. Guillaume de MEURDRAC donne ALLAIN , qui donne deux fils: Raoult et Philippe.
Philippe est seigneur de st denis , sa descendance prendra le nom de ST DENIS.
Raoult ( Robert pour d'autres) se marie avec HAWISSE de st Pierre ( seule fille heritiere de Alain de st Pierre ) . Raoult et sa descendance prendra le nom de " de Saint Pierre".
Plus tard ( au siecle suivant) sa descendance prendra le le patronime de Saint DENIS. C'est la raison pour laquelle, il n'y a plus de Saint Pierre en France.

Titane
07-29-2019, 02:20 PM
Looks like you are not talking about the same Gouy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouy

https://fr.wiktionary.org/wiki/Saint-Pierre-%C3%A0-Gouy

Indeed confusion, but the place with the plaque is this one (code 76313):

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gouy_(Seine-Maritime)


Un des seigneurs de Gouy, comme beaucoup de seigneurs de la région, combattit aux côtés de Guillaume dit « le Bâtard » à la bataille de Hastings en octobre 1066.
Unfortunately the Wiki author did not say which «*seigneur*»

And it has a church called St-Pierre...



Gouy possède une grotte pariétale magdalénienne, c'est-à-dire ornée, voire azilienne (10 000 à 12 000 ans environ) appelée grotte de Gouy. Malgré son classement au titre des monuments historiques, elle est menacée de destruction. Avec celle d'Orival (Seine-Maritime), sa proche voisine, tout aussi peu étudiée, elle semble être une des grottes les plus septentrionales de ce type en Europe continentale à ce jour (deux grottes anglaises ont été découvertes récemment encore plus au nord). Elle ne peut être visitée. Voir « Histoire de la Normandie, préhistoire et antiquité ».
L'église paroissiale Saint-Pierre[7].
Les maisons bourgeoises au centre du village, ainsi que le colombier[8] dans une propriété en lisière de forêt, constituent un intérêt architectural.

If the family is now St-Denis, the y-DNA relationship should show.

Some genealogists mention that the «*de*» in their name is not indicative of nobility, but of origin (location). In any case upon arrival in Nouvelle-France, the ancestor was a servant...

DAMIGNY
07-29-2019, 03:53 PM
Hello Titan;
The "st pierre" of england, come from St pierre langers. They come from the family "murdrac". sur à 100%.
There are genealogy clubs in Normandy that are very advanced and know more than historians.

le patronyme " de" est souvent lié à la noblesse si il est attaché à un nom de lieu. Mais plus on avance dans le temps, moins s'est vrai . C'est surtout vrai au XII eme siecle " de camprond" " de breuil" " de mary" "de glatigny" " de courcy" " de grimouville " de meurdrac" etc..
Au XV eme siecle, s'est l'inverse, et apres la revolution, s'est completement faux. " Giscard d'estaind" " de rugy",

Que ton ancetre du Canada soit servant ne prouve pas qu'il n'etait pas noble. Tu pouvais tres vite " deroger" si tu travaillais. Mais en Normandie , tu ne perd pas ta noblesse. J'ai des exemples d'enfants de puissants seigneurs ( famille leverrier liée à Jeanne d'Arc ) qui etaient tisserants..charpentiers..
Dans ma famille, j'ai un cousin en 1670 qui etait laboureur, et qui s'est retrouvé " noble homme" dés lors qu'il avait retrouvé un fief.



lehttps://books.google.fr/books?id=2fxMA1UumqEC&pg=PA1418&lpg=PA1418&dq=alain+de+murdrac&source=bl&ots=GOJociIihb&sig=ACfU3U2T9dZ6EcmfagstyRYNJqiSYZ9D0g&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij3oGkudrjAhUOEBQKHd34DkAQ6AEwAnoECAgQA Qs

Titane
07-29-2019, 04:45 PM
Hello Titan;
The "st pierre" of england, come from St pierre langers. They come from the family "murdrac". sur à 100%.
There are genealogy clubs in Normandy that are very advanced and know more than historians.

le patronyme " de" est souvent lié à la noblesse si il est attaché à un nom de lieu. Mais plus on avance dans le temps, moins s'est vrai . C'est surtout vrai au XII eme siecle " de camprond" " de breuil" " de mary" "de glatigny" " de courcy" " de grimouville " de meurdrac" etc..
Au XV eme siecle, s'est l'inverse, et apres la revolution, s'est completement faux. " Giscard d'estaind" " de rugy",

Que ton ancetre du Canada soit servant ne prouve pas qu'il n'etait pas noble. Tu pouvais tres vite " deroger" si tu travaillais. Mais en Normandie , tu ne perd pas ta noblesse. J'ai des exemples d'enfants de puissants seigneurs ( famille leverrier liée à Jeanne d'Arc ) qui etaient tisserants..charpentiers..
Dans ma famille, j'ai un cousin en 1670 qui etait laboureur, et qui s'est retrouvé " noble homme" dés lors qu'il avait retrouvé un fief.



lehttps://books.google.fr/books?id=2fxMA1UumqEC&pg=PA1418&lpg=PA1418&dq=alain+de+murdrac&source=bl&ots=GOJociIihb&sig=ACfU3U2T9dZ6EcmfagstyRYNJqiSYZ9D0g&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwij3oGkudrjAhUOEBQKHd34DkAQ6AEwAnoECAgQA Qs

There are also some Saint-Denis, sometimes only called Denis, who came over. Example :
https://www.nosorigines.qc.ca/GenealogieQuebec.aspx?genealogie=Denis_Jacques&pid=22237

This Jacques Denis/St-Denis was also from Normandy, a soldier, son of a bourgeois. Related?
One of these days we will have all families tested...

PS It is Titane, like the metal Titanium in French, also the name of my cat, because she’s a pale gray.

DAMIGNY
07-29-2019, 05:17 PM
this "saint denis" have nothing relation with saint denis ( murdrac) . The family of saint denis noble was already extinguished.
links with researches of nobility

In 1493, the Saint pierre and Saint Denis family did not exist in France.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525048268.r=noblesse%20normandie?rk=321890;0

Titane
07-29-2019, 08:14 PM
this "saint denis" have nothing relation with saint denis ( murdrac) . The family of saint denis noble was already extinguished.
links with researches of nobility

In 1493, the Saint pierre and Saint Denis family did not exist in France.

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b525048268.r=noblesse%20normandie?rk=321890;0
Ah but there is someone with my family name! Of course impossible to link using genealogy since the one who came did not disclose the location of his parents (I think probably Huguenots) and my brothers/nephew do not share my interest for this.

DAMIGNY
07-30-2019, 06:38 AM
Titane
I made a mistake, I checked, noble "Saint Pierre" existed in France until the early XVIII century.
It is a branch of "saint pierre" which afterwards changed to "of saint Denis" like their cousins.

anglesqueville
07-30-2019, 08:11 PM
Anders and Ross: I just received my result for CTS7352. As I expected, I'm negative.

rosshdly
07-31-2019, 05:54 PM
Well, that’s too bad. It would be interesting to ultimately learn how many subbranches end up being under Z275. Do let us know if you ever end up doing the Big Y. You could also test for that other existing subbranch, but is suspect the chances of a match probably aren’t good now. Thanks for indulging us by doing these last couple SNP tests, it would have been quite interesting to have been a match with one another. For research’s sake, we just tested all the English Hadleys we are in contact with for Y146179 and they were all positive. So we seem to have a more recent level of testing we can use to screen any future prospective participants.
Salut,
Ross

rosshdly
07-31-2019, 05:56 PM
Well, that’s too bad. It would be interesting to ultimately learn how many subbranches end up being under Z275. Do let us know if you ever end up doing the Big Y. You could also test for that other existing subbranch, but is suspect the chances of a match probably aren’t good now. Thanks for indulging us by doing these last couple SNP tests, it would have been quite interesting to have been a match with one another. For research’s sake, we just tested all the English Hadleys we are in contact with for Y146179 and they were all positive. So we seem to have a more recent level of testing we can use to screen any future prospective participants.
Salut,
Ross

anglesqueville
07-31-2019, 09:20 PM
Well, that’s too bad. It would be interesting to ultimately learn how many subbranches end up being under Z275. Do let us know if you ever end up doing the Big Y. You could also test for that other existing subbranch, but is suspect the chances of a match probably aren’t good now. Thanks for indulging us by doing these last couple SNP tests, it would have been quite interesting to have been a match with one another. For research’s sake, we just tested all the English Hadleys we are in contact with for Y146179 and they were all positive. So we seem to have a more recent level of testing we can use to screen any future prospective participants.
Salut,
Ross

Yes, too bad, it would have been really pleasant to reach a point so close to your clan. I feel a bit alone between Z275+ and CTS7352-, but ... c'est la vie.
Friendy,
Pat

A.Morup
08-01-2019, 07:51 AM
Hi all!

Still on holiday and still writing with one finger on my mobile phone. Many interesting things happening here!

For Pat (Patrick?) Anglesqueville: Too bad about the CTS7352- result. You have come to the end of single SNP testing - from here it is a personal BigY or waiting for other BigY to expand the tree. I hope we'll see you do a BigY someday ;)

Big and interesting discussion on the Norman families. I really envy your possibility to go back so far in time in your genealogy. But it is all more or less speculations - but you have an exceptional option to PROVE these theories once and for all. All we need are the correct testers and money for a few BigY tests and we will be able to start getting DNA proof of what is until now (to some degree) speculation. Please consider reaching out to possible testers - ideally someone from the French branch and some testers from the possible English branches. St. Pierre has already secured three BigY on the Canadian branch and once summer is over I will see if I can help St. Pierre on pushing on that Roger St. Pierre.

Best wishes
Anders

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 05:21 PM
Hi, I’m new to the site. I’m also Z367, and I’ve asked Family to do some more analysis. My genealogy is known until 1200 apres of the family archives. It is of the old Normand nobility made by Rollon viking.I come from a village near saint lo, Normandy invaded by the viking in 960.I thought I would find a Viking origin, but Z367 is Italianceltique from what I read.
Unless you have an illigitimate-born ancestor, there’s no doubt about my family’s Viking origin. Someone has an idea about the possible link between the Z367 and the viking.
Good day

This is very interesting. I am U152>L2>Z367>L20. I only know my genealogy back to ~1700 tracing to Antrim Ireland (I presume based on Y67 and Y37 matching that we are transplants from Scotland). I have a Y67 match surnamed Pedersen, a name some lines trace to Gyldenstierne line in Denmark. I have not been able to get Mr. Pedersen to communicate. It's speculative, but one possible explanation of Z367 in Viking lines would be residual Celtic Cimbri male descendants out of Jutland. Though I have no idea how one would prove that. I don't seem to have any meaningful matching in East Anglia, arguably the heaviest Danish descent region in UK.

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 05:35 PM
For what its worth, I am BY3604- but as I stated above am U152>L2>Z367>L20. I've done BigY700 on FTDNA (kit#843604), I'm also on the L20 at Ytree. The last two blocks on my BigY700 at FTDNA are BY69713 (along with BY90902, BY133312, BY94313, FT24199, BY52376, BY146707, FT56478, BY133159, BY149308, BY127517, BY211642, BY77471, FT23737, BY148860, BY143658, BY118281); and my terminal (matched to paternal uncle) at FT20578 (along with FT15484, FT21819, AM00185, FT23317, FT16973, FT20849, FT17859, FT15594, FT26783, FT27199, FT20930, FT25232, FT15797, FT24397, FT15573). I'm having my sons custom SNP paneled at YSEQ. I know for sure that you can test BY69713 and FT20578 at YSEQ now. I've sent them all the listed SNPs so others may be available too.

A.Morup
08-05-2019, 06:56 PM
Hi JcMax68!

Welcome to Z367!
When it comes to Scandinavian STR-matches, I think they are more or less "false positives".
I manage three BigY kits (myself, my maternal grandfather and the father of my maternal grandmother). For all three kits there are STR-matches with three different families on the British Isles - for each kit several matches with the same family names. But all three BigY tests show that these matches are more than 3.000 years away - so in reality false matches.
STR testing is obsolete - BigY / SNP tests rule!

Best wishes
Anders

jcmax68
08-05-2019, 08:03 PM
Hi JcMax68!

Welcome to Z367!
When it comes to Scandinavian STR-matches, I think they are more or less "false positives".
I manage three BigY kits (myself, my maternal grandfather and the father of my maternal grandmother). For all three kits there are STR-matches with three different families on the British Isles - for each kit several matches with the same family names. But all three BigY tests show that these matches are more than 3.000 years away - so in reality false matches.
STR testing is obsolete - BigY / SNP tests rule!

Best wishes
Anders

Thank you sir, its nice to be here and loads of interesting info. If you have any thoughts on what you think the origin of my Z367>L20 paternal line is in British Isles I'd be very interested. I've found no way thus far of discerning if we are more likely bronze/iron age Celt arrivals, Roman or Belgae, Anglo-Saxon-Jute, Dane or Norman. It seems like the most likely candidate is Roman/Belgae or Norman.

A.Morup
08-07-2019, 09:23 AM
Hi JcMax68!

Everything below R-U152 (like Z367) is Celtic beyond doubt.
You can read more here - just follow the links: http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/a-short-introduction-to-by3604/

Best wishes
Anders

jcmax68
08-08-2019, 09:12 PM
FYI, I've had both my sons run the YSEQ U152 Superclade Panel and also wish a SNPs for BY69713 and FT20578. Progress report just came in and both are verified L2+ and Z367+, L20 on still running analysis. Very cool to see the L2>Z37. It really brings home the paternal lineage connection. I wish my Dad had lived long enough to see it too.

guy dupond
10-22-2019, 10:03 PM
google traduction I am french
Hello
i quickly indicated i did an autosomal test and a morley extraction that gives me r1b1a2a1a2b1a1
on a table found on the net this gives U152
L2 Z 367 which allows me to meet you here

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 12:25 PM
google traduction I am french
Hello
i quickly indicated i did an autosomal test and a morley extraction that gives me r1b1a2a1a2b1a1
on a table found on the net this gives U152
L2 Z 367 which allows me to meet you here

Welcome Guy. Can you advise where in France your line is descended from if you know? You probably will want to refine your SNP analysis past Z367 as it is probably about 4000+ YBP. You may be L20, but even that is about 3300+ YBP.

guy dupond
10-23-2019, 02:00 PM
Google traduction
Hello,
genealogical research takes me to brittany 50%, normandy 12.5%, limousin 25%, north of france 12.5% (french regions)
Searches are documented with archives until 1650
Morley test says Z383/Z384 but ihavent find these on table.
I will refine SNP analysis . Do you think that 23andme Y test is fine?

Helgenes50
10-23-2019, 02:10 PM
Google traduction
Hello,
genealogical research takes me to brittany 50%, normandy 12.5%, limousin 25%, north of france 12.5% (french regions)
Searches are documented with archives until 1650
Morley test says Z383/Z384 but ihavent find these on table.
I will refine SNP analysis . Do you think that 23andme Y test is fine?

Hello Guy and Welcome on the forum,

Is your Paternal line from Brittany ?

We have a french subforum on Anthrogenica.

falconson1
10-23-2019, 02:34 PM
Hi JcMax68!

Everything below R-U152 (like Z367) is Celtic beyond doubt.
You can read more here - just follow the links: http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/a-short-introduction-to-by3604/

Best wishes
Anders

I left a response on your website.

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 03:32 PM
Google traduction
Hello,
genealogical research takes me to brittany 50%, normandy 12.5%, limousin 25%, north of france 12.5% (french regions)
Searches are documented with archives until 1650
Morley test says Z383/Z384 but ihavent find these on table.
I will refine SNP analysis . Do you think that 23andme Y test is fine?
Very interesting to hear 50% Brittany. Obviously a strong Celtic identity there. That's your paternal line, I presume? U152>Z367>L20 has some pockets of 30% density in lower Rhine and Flanders regions. I don't know enough about 23andme to opine on its quality. I'd think SNP analysis would be universal. YSEQ has some excellent SNP testing options that can be done for considerably less than FTDNA. However, I'd say BigY700 at FTDNA is the gold standard. Once done you can upload to YFull and Ytree.

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 03:33 PM
I left a response on your website.

Dr. Faux, I posted this on the U152 L20 thread yesterday, but in case you didn't see it there:

Dr. Faux, I was conversing with Steve Gilbert of FTDNA U152 project (prompted by a combination of Tibor Feher's 2010 STR annotation and also seeking clarity on Rich Rocca's 2013 statement about L20 in UK arriving via La Tene Celts) over the weekend about my and my BigY700 matches L20 terminal SNPs. He offered up this, which may be information you already have:

"I had a look at your subclade and it really need to be worked out.

From L20 to the split in between the Black [BY69713] and the Wilkinsons [FT20578] I count 17 SNPs which is enormous. Let say we count 100 years per SNP x 17= 1700 years without migration path information.

From the above split to you, I count an additional 16 SNPs (16 x 100= 1600)

1700 + 1600= 3300 years with only one split. ....

Regarding L20, it has been spread by the late Bell Beaker, Unetice and early Tumulus cultures

Subclades of L20 has been spread by the Hallstatt and Urnfield cultures

L20 Datation:
YFull: 4100 BP
YTree: 3626 BP

Cultures of that period:
Beaker: 4900-3800 BP
Unetice: 4300-3600 BP
Tumulus: 3600-3200 BP (many of the first major L20 subclades)

Posterior cultures:
Urnfield: 3300-2700 BP (Explosion of downstream L20 subclades)
Hallstatt: 3200-2500 BP
La Tène: 2500-2000 BP (Many L20 subclades were already well established for over a 1000 years when it appeared)."

I'm hitting up all my Y37 and higher matches (and Y25 and higher if surname contains "Wilk") to either do BigY700 on FTDNA or a comprehensive custom SNP panel of all the BY69713 and FT20578 SNPs at YSEQ to try to fill in some gaps. Most of them haven't refined past M269 and it is exasperating.

Both my BigY match (Black) and my line trace to Ulster. My MDKA was in Antrim and born there (or possibly Scotland) around 1700. My match (Black) traces a MDKA to around 1820 in County Tyrone. Of course all of this is solidly post Ulster Plantation so its difficult to know if we were Irish, Scot, or maybe Welsh or English. U152 is very low in Wales so that seems improbable, but I do know of Wilkinson lines in Antrim that claim welsh descent (but no known connection with my line as yet).

I will gather all the 33 BY69713 and FT20578 block SNPs and post them here. BY69713 dates to roughly 300-400AD. My Black match has an additional 6x private variants downstream of BY69713. I'll ask him for those too.

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 03:49 PM
The R-FT20578 [Wilkinson] terminal SNP panel block content is as follows:
FT20578
FT15594
FT26783
FT27199
FT15484
FT21819
AM00185
FT17859
FT23317
FT15797
FT24397
FT15573
FT25232
FT16973
FT20849
FT20930

These are all the SNPs in the R-BY69713 [Black] block that we Wilkinsons share with Black [Black's have an additional 6x private variants below BY69713, but at this time I do not know what they are]:
BY69713
BY118281
BY127517
BY133159
BY133312
BY143658
BY146707
BY148860
BY149308
BY211642
BY52376
BY77471
BY90902
BY94313
FT23737
FT24199
FT56478

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 04:06 PM
The fellow L20 (but non-match to me) who traces to Gyldenstierne/Pedersen [by way of Haggard/Ogard surnames] has a terminal SNP of BY69018. I'm not sure its comprehensive but I can see the following additional SNPs in his BY69018 block on the FTDNA block tree as:
BY114845
BY116109
BY119499
BY132833
BY196113
BY196123
BY72291
BY75206
BY76751

jcmax68
10-23-2019, 04:40 PM
Finally, for whatever its worth, these are the remaining "terminal" SNPs under L20 (in addition to the 3 I listed above, there is also 1 line of unidentified private variants):
Z291
Z1909
CTS9733
BY5690
BY3586
S23900
BY34065
FGC54100
BY203086 [Guy, at least one person in this line listed France as a country of origin]
BY55987

There are more subsplits off these you can see over at Alex Williamson's Big Tree project. https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=440

A.Morup
10-23-2019, 07:03 PM
Hi Guy!

Welcome here!

Two ways to go further with your result:
Do the "one test to rule them all" - the "BigY 700" from FTDNA. This test is the best, but costs 499 USD when on sale (often on "Black friday" coming soon).
The second best choice is to do the "U152 Superclade Panel (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=38288)" at Yseq for 99 USD.

The Yseq panel will give you with 100% certainty the most detailed haplogroup currently known (assuming your Morley extraction is correct) but nothing more.
The BigY will create a new haplogroup and keep doing that as others test - that is why we BigY testers really like new BigY testers :)

Welcome to the "family"
Anders

PS: I can fully read French, but will answer in English so all can read along

A.Morup
10-23-2019, 07:27 PM
I left a response on your website.
I just found it in the spam bin and saved it :)
I left a reply (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/a-short-introduction-to-by3604/) too!

A.Morup
10-23-2019, 07:31 PM
genealogical research takes me to brittany 50%, normandy 12.5%, limousin 25%, north of france 12.5% (french regions)
Searches are documented with archives until 1650
Hi Guy!
For Y-haplogroups only your paternal line is important (the father of your father of your father...).
He is the one, who gave your your Y-DNA. How far back can you go?

And do not do 23andMe - it is BigY or Yseq for serious Y-DNA...

Best regards
Anders

jcmax68
10-24-2019, 01:57 PM
I left a response on your website.

Hey Dr. Faux, interesting development. I finally just made contact with my Y67 match surnamed Pedersen. He has confirmed his genealogy traces to Denmark. Too early to tell just yet, but if he upgrades his SNP analyses and is positive for BY69713 and/or FT20578 (or some of the other SNPs in either block) I'd think that would be fairly compelling evidence that the Black/Wilkinson lines got to Britain via Danish incursions sometime during or after 787 AD?

falconson1
10-24-2019, 02:17 PM
Hey Dr. Faux, interesting development. I finally just made contact with my Y67 match surnamed Pedersen. He has confirmed his genealogy traces to Denmark. Too early to tell just yet, but if he upgrades his SNP analyses and is positive for BY69713 and/or FT20578 (or some of the other SNPs in either block) I'd think that would be fairly compelling evidence that the Black/Wilkinson lines got to Britain via Danish incursions sometime during or after 787 AD?

Well, it would not surprise me if that proved true. I will write to Dr. Willerslev (the supervising author in the Margaryan et al., 2019 study) and see if there is a possibility of a deeper analysis of the U152 samples from Viking Era Scandinavia. I would also like to know if he has plans to do an in depth study of Danish genomes from the Bronze Age to the time the Angle settlements were abandoned. His best known work is from North and South America, but being a Dane, perhaps he will be switching gears and focusing on his homeland.

guy dupond
10-24-2019, 02:30 PM
hello
think you all for your welkome and informations

my paternal lineage is blocked in 1841 in alencon.
it is the maternal line that totally Breton

what is the difference between the "top level orientation" of y seq and the big y there is a great difference in price.

jcmax68
10-24-2019, 05:13 PM
hello
think you all for your welkome and informations

my paternal lineage is blocked in 1841 in alencon.
it is the maternal line that totally Breton

what is the difference between the "top level orientation" of y seq and the big y there is a great difference in price.

With a YSEQ U152 Superclade, you will only get SNPs. There will be a good downtrace of SNPs and it is useful (arguably most useful) in identifying your genetic ancestry, but not necessarily your genealogy. BigY will give you 111 Y STRs and hundreds of SNPs analysis, I believe it is the most comprehensive Y analysis out there. FTDNA will give you a huge database of participants to match from. If you are stuck genealogically, and can swing the prince, BigY is the best bang for your buck. I started out doing Y67 on FTDNA, then ran a number of SNP pack refinements. Then upgraded to Y111. I'd have been better off to have just bit the bullet and done BigY, which I ended up doing anyway. Hope that is helpful.

A.Morup
10-24-2019, 05:50 PM
my paternal lineage is blocked in 1841 in alencon.
Some of the guys who tested Z367 > BY3604 trace their paternal line to the same area - search for Robert Boulay:
http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/haplogroup-by3604-updates/by3604-june-2019/

BigY is the test to do, but is expensive and you have to work a lot with it afterwards - it just gives you a lot of data and you have to find your way.
An Yseq panel is the "burger meal" - it will satisfy your hunger for a short while and then you will most probably want more (the BigY).
And if you do a panel and then the BigY, the money you spent on the panel is lost.

But most of us started with a panel and then became hungry for more, so maybe this is the natural way :P

If you go for a panel, do it at Yseq - they are the best for the best price!

Bonne soirée
Anders

guy dupond
10-25-2019, 10:28 AM
hello

thanks for precisions

have a good day

Guy

jcmax68
10-25-2019, 05:22 PM
Well, it would not surprise me if that proved true. I will write to Dr. Willerslev (the supervising author in the Margaryan et al., 2019 study) and see if there is a possibility of a deeper analysis of the U152 samples from Viking Era Scandinavia. I would also like to know if he has plans to do an in depth study of Danish genomes from the Bronze Age to the time the Angle settlements were abandoned. His best known work is from North and South America, but being a Dane, perhaps he will be switching gears and focusing on his homeland.

Somewhat strange update. My BigY match Black reports that Mr. Pedersen is not a match to him. I'd have figured he'd be closer to SNP BY69713 than FT20578, but maybe not. Now that I think if it though, Black isn't an STR match to me either, only BigY. Which I still can't quite figure out how that happens, but I guess we'll figure out the mystery if Pedersen upgrades to BigY.

falconson1
10-25-2019, 05:52 PM
Somewhat strange update. My BigY match Black reports that Mr. Pedersen is not a match to him. I'd have figured he'd be closer to SNP BY69713 than FT20578, but maybe not. Now that I think if it though, Black isn't an STR match to me either, only BigY. Which I still can't quite figure out how that happens, but I guess we'll figure out the mystery if Pedersen upgrades to BigY.

Not a problem unless you suspect you should be close cousins. STR markers are genealogically helpful for some families, but not mine. All Falke - Faux of Norfolk have a unique marker pattern in second cluster (13 markers) of FTDNA's first 25. The rest (at least in the 37 marker haplotype set) are all over the map with my second cousin matching our 8th cousin closer at 37 markers than he matches me. The ONLY useful predictor of Y origin is deep SNP testing. If you and Black and Pederson have a lengthy SNP match profile below Z367 that is informative. I would not be bothered by YSTR mismatches when seeking to learn whether your Y came from Denmark or say the South of France.

DAMIGNY
10-26-2019, 06:52 AM
Hello
it is interesting the age of the common ancestor with the number of SNPs.
I did my little research, and I found that a SNP is 84 years old.
By cons I understood nothing. When going on family trees (for example) with colored SNPs. The age of the common ancestor, does it correspond to: number of SNP difference x 84 years? Should it be divided by two? Example, if I have 10 SNPs of difference with another individual, The common ancestor is 10x84 years = 840 years old, or should it be 10X84 / 2 = 420 years (5 SNPs to me and 5 SNPs to the other ?)

d'amigny

A.Morup
10-26-2019, 09:54 AM
STRs do give "false positives" - SNPs (from BigY never lie).

But the age of an SNP is random - an SNP (in the Yfull combBED region) happens on average every 144,41 years - so about once every six generations.

You can compare this to a dice and each throw is one generation - and a new SNP equals the dice value 6. Sometimes you get a 6 in your first throw, but sometimes you need many throws - in fact there is a 1% probability that you need at least 25 throws to get your first 6! So SNP trees are 100% true (compared to the STR probability trees) but the age estimates are still only probability based.
And remember - somebody is always the first in the world to have a given mutation in a given haplogroup - just like the guy who gets 6 in his first throw.

This is how Yfull calculates the age of a common ancestor:

Yfull age calculation is based on the 8.467.165 SNPs in the so-called "combBED" region of the Y-DNA.

Lets assume that the BigY of person A found 5 new SNPs, but only testet 8.300.000 SNPs in the combBED region.
The BigY of person B found 7 new SNPs and tested 8.400.000 SNPs in the combBED region.
A and B happen to share 2 of those SNPs, so A has 3 private SNPs and B has 5 private SNPs in the combBED region in their Y-DNA.

First, Yfull must correct the new SNPs for the individual BigY quality:
If person A was tested for all combBED 8.467.165 SNPs, he would have had: 5 x 8.467.165 / 8.300.000 = 5,10 novel SNPs
If person B was tested for all combBED 8.467.165 SNPs, he would have had: 7 x 8.467.165 / 8.400.000 = 7,05 novel SNPs
These are the numbers that Yfull will use for the age calculation. It is of course a wrong assumption on the individual level, since you either have - or do not have - an SNP. Decimal SNPs do not exist in real life!
But on a larger scale (older haplogroups with many members) this actually increases the precision of the age estimate (the rule of larger numbers).

To complicate things, Yfull actually has some smarter subalgorithms that take into account if B was tested positive for a novel SNP that A has, but at a level that did not meet the Yfull quality criteria, so 1 "private" SNP in person A will only count e.g. as 0,37 "private" SNPs for person A, if B was tested positive for that same SNP but only 2 reads. The rules are very complex, but just to say that the Yfull algorithm is more complex than my example.

Now the "formed" age of the new common haplogroup formed between A and B (the new haplogroup that will form from the 2 common SNPs) is calculated as:
A: 5,10 * 144.41 + 60 = 796 years
B: 7,05 * 144.41 + 60 = 1.078 years
Average = "formed" = 937 years.

The +60 is because Yfull assumes that the average Yfull tester is 60 years old. It would of course be smarter if we could all add the true birth year of the tester, and that might come one day. But on the big lines (the older haplogroups) +30 or +80 years do not really matter that much.

"Formed" is the time back to when the first man with the new common haplogroup between A and B lived. As you can see, it is calculated on the SNPs that only A and B have in common (2 SNPs) + their corrected private SNPs (5,10 - 2 and 7,05 - 2).

The next calculation is the TMRCA - this is the time back to the last common ancestor between A and B.
This calculation is based on only the true corrected private SNPs (5,10 - 2 and 7,05 - 2):
A: 3,10 * 144.41 + 60 = 507 years
B: 5,05 * 144.41 + 60 = 789 years
Average = "TMRCA" = 648 years.

So to conclude:
"Formed" calculation of a haplogroup is based on the SNPs that all persons in this haplogroup have in common plus all private SNPs.
"TMRCA" calculation of a haplogroup is based on the average private SNPs that all persons in this haplogroup have (o not including common SNPs).

The value of 144,41 years pr. SNP is only applicable for the SNPs that fall into the so-called combBED region. This is a list of SNPs that was in a scientific paper that indicated that these 8.467.165 SNPs were stable and suitable for age calculation.

FTDNA does not show which SNPs fall into the combBED region, but with some Googling, you can see if your FTDNA "novel SNPs" are combBED SNPs or not. Or you can just join Yfull!

I hope that this clears up things somehow?

falconson1
10-26-2019, 02:25 PM
Hello
it is interesting the age of the common ancestor with the number of SNPs.
I did my little research, and I found that a SNP is 84 years old.
By cons I understood nothing. When going on family trees (for example) with colored SNPs. The age of the common ancestor, does it correspond to: number of SNP difference x 84 years? Should it be divided by two? Example, if I have 10 SNPs of difference with another individual, The common ancestor is 10x84 years = 840 years old, or should it be 10X84 / 2 = 420 years (5 SNPs to me and 5 SNPs to the other ?)

d'amigny

I don't know where you got the info that a SNP (single nucleotide polymorphism) must be (or even is an average of) 84 years old. SNPs could happen today in a sperm destined to produce a child (often termed "private SNPs"), or may have happened thousands of years ago (e.g., the R-L2 SNP in an R-U152 male) leading to millions of men who carry this "new" SNP. STR (short tandem repeat) markers (those found in the typical 37 marker Y test at FTDNA) are prone to mutating much more rapidly (although again, may remain stable for thousands or years or even back mutate to their original number - say 24 repeats). Either way there is no set number of years when any of this would happen - it is mostly random.

DAMIGNY
10-28-2019, 03:04 PM
Hello
I had the information of 84 years by SNP, discussing on a forum with a geneticist who seems known since I read several articles concerning him. I think he simplified because he knew I did not understand anything. That said, it comes down to what Anders writes. 144/2 = about 84? In short, I would like to know if there is a simple method to know the age of the common ancestor according to the number of different SNPs between two individuals in 2 different regions having a common ancestor Y?
Good day to you all.

jcmax68
10-28-2019, 03:27 PM
Well, it would not surprise me if that proved true. I will write to Dr. Willerslev (the supervising author in the Margaryan et al., 2019 study) and see if there is a possibility of a deeper analysis of the U152 samples from Viking Era Scandinavia. I would also like to know if he has plans to do an in depth study of Danish genomes from the Bronze Age to the time the Angle settlements were abandoned. His best known work is from North and South America, but being a Dane, perhaps he will be switching gears and focusing on his homeland.

Interesting article from 8 years ago in Irish Times: https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/art-and-design/what-have-the-vikings-ever-done-for-us-1.625270

Perhaps my Y line, if it is Danish in origin, is a product of Viking incursions directly in Ireland. There was at least one Viking settlement near Larne in County Antrim. But Ulster makes it so hard to be sure due to the large influx of Scots, English and even some Welsh during the Plantation era. I'd say the safe bet is that my Y line was a transplant to Ulster in 1600-1700 period, presumably from lowland Scotland based on the Y matching thus far.

jcmax68
10-28-2019, 03:44 PM
Well, it would not surprise me if that proved true. I will write to Dr. Willerslev (the supervising author in the Margaryan et al., 2019 study) and see if there is a possibility of a deeper analysis of the U152 samples from Viking Era Scandinavia. I would also like to know if he has plans to do an in depth study of Danish genomes from the Bronze Age to the time the Angle settlements were abandoned. His best known work is from North and South America, but being a Dane, perhaps he will be switching gears and focusing on his homeland.

Not conclusive by any means, but some interesting information on use of name "Wilken" among Norse. https://www.nordicnames.de/wiki/Wilken

jcmax68
10-29-2019, 06:01 PM
The R-FT20578 [Wilkinson] terminal SNP panel block content is as follows:
FT20578
FT15594
FT26783
FT27199
FT15484
FT21819
AM00185
FT17859
FT23317
FT15797
FT24397
FT15573
FT25232
FT16973
FT20849
FT20930

These are all the SNPs in the R-BY69713 [Black] block that we Wilkinsons share with Black [Black's have an additional 6x private variants below BY69713, but at this time I do not know what they are]:
BY69713
BY118281
BY127517
BY133159
BY133312
BY143658
BY146707
BY148860
BY149308
BY211642
BY52376
BY77471
BY90902
BY94313
FT23737
FT24199
FT56478

For whatever its worth, the 6x Black private variants under BY69713 are: 11985417, 12470870, 12489656, 14785437, 7828905, 8480447

DAMIGNY
10-31-2019, 01:54 PM
hello.
Assuming that each SNP represents 84 years of time, it means that the common ancestor of wilkinson and you was born there 84 x number of = age
I am not a professional in genetics, but that's what I understood.
Have a good day

guy dupond
11-01-2019, 11:38 AM
hello
kinship proximity is expressed in centimorgan
how many centimorgan can we expect between
for example BY 3600 and BY 3688?
34311
34312

jcmax68
11-01-2019, 01:56 PM
hello.
Assuming that each SNP represents 84 years of time, it means that the common ancestor of wilkinson and you was born there 84 x number of = age
I am not a professional in genetics, but that's what I understood.
Have a good day

Correct, the time frame from FT20578 back to BY69713 is about 1600 years, and from BY69713 back to L20 about another 1700 years.

jcmax68
11-01-2019, 01:57 PM
hello
kinship proximity is expressed in centimorgan
how many centimorgan can we expect between
for example BY 3600 and BY 3688?
34311
34312

That's a great question, I am not familiar with that analysis but it is great to see this and I really want to study it.

jcmax68
11-04-2019, 09:01 PM
Prompted by one of my Y67 match's confirmation that his line traces to Denmark, and also by the fact that I know of a group of Wilkinsons in Coquetdale in Northumberland from at least the late 1300s, I decided to research the Viking history in Northumbria. I found this website which is pretty informative. https://englandsnortheast.co.uk/VikingNorthumbria.html But most interesting to me was this passage fairly early on: "For seven decades the Vikings would continue raiding the coast of Britain and it seemed inevitable that they would eventually launch a full scale invasion of our shores. This is precisely what occurred in the year 866, when a huge army of Danes invaded East Anglia from their well established bases in the Low Countries of the Continent. They arrived under the leadership of Ivar the Boneless and his brothers, Halfdene and Hubba and after camping the winter, turned their attention to Northumbria." Two things are interesting to us as U152>L2>Z367>L20. First, obviously that these were Danish Vikings. Second, that they launched the invasion from strongholds in "the Low Countries", i.e. what is now Netherlands and Belgium. This is worth noting because there are pockets of U152 that are in the 20% and higher range in these areas. This adds to the possibility that our line arrived with these Danes. Although, as previously noted by Dr. Faux in his research and analysis, if the Jutland Cimbri of the classical era were also U152>L20, then its possible we were already there as Britonic Celts too. We know of at least two ancient Viking remains that are U152>L20. A Viking connection to these subclades undoubtedly exists. The question remains, are the Vikings my paternal line's vector into the British Isles. Only additional testing will get us the answers we seek. Hopefully more of the lines who remained in the old country will test as well.

A.Morup
11-04-2019, 09:23 PM
hello
kinship proximity is expressed in centimorgan
how many centimorgan can we expect between
for example BY 3600 and BY 3688?

Hi Guy!

Autosomal DNA and Y-DNA are two completely different ballgames.

If you go just 10 generations back (250 to 350 years), it is very rare to have any autosomal matches, although some rare lucky persons can find autosomal matches that go up to 16 generations back (but it is difficult to exclude that they might have a more recent but undiscovered family relation).

For Y-DNA SNPs you can see relations going back to the first humans, but only on the purely paternal lines.
The last common ancestor between BY3600 and BY5688 was BY2171 according to the tree that you have posted.
If we believe Yfull (and I do), then the common ancestor for the branches below BY2171 (named FGC49428 at Ytree) lived 3.400 years ago: https://yfull.com/tree/R-FGC49428/
Yfull does unfortunately not have the BY3600 branch in its tree, but you can see BY3600 and BY5688 both branching off BY2171 here at Ytree: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1028&star=false

So there is absolutely no chance that a person being BY3600 matches a person being BY5688 autosomally if the only common ancestor is the BY2171 ancestor.
But there can of course be more recent relationships between those two persons - e.g. my maternal cousin is I-M253 and I am R-U152 and yet we match quite a lot autosomally ;-)

Best wishes, Anders

A.Morup
11-04-2019, 09:34 PM
Although, as previously noted by Dr. Faux in his research and analysis, if the Jutland Cimbri of the classical era were also U152>L20, then its possible we were already there as Britonic Celts too. We know of at least two ancient Viking remains that are U152>L20. A Viking connection to these subclades undoubtedly exists. The question remains, are the Vikings my paternal line's vector into the British Isles. Only additional testing will get us the answers we seek. Hopefully more of the lines who remained in the old country will test as well.
Since L20 is more common on the British Isles than in Denmark, I still believe that we Danish R-Z367 are the odd ones - not the other way round.
A match to one Dane does not prove that L20 is Danish - it could just as well prove to the Dane that L20 is from the British Isles.

If you take a look at Z367 at Ytree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1028&star=false), there is just one Dane - me :-)

And even though we lack the smoking gun, there is a high chance that my paternal line was actually from Sweden, where the two Swedish BY3604 samples come from. At least we have so far tested 4 completely unrelated Swedes BY3604+ and three of them can trace their paternal line to the same small Swedish village (4th tester is an 19th century NPE). And there are some traces that my furthest ancestor actually also came from Sweden to Denmark (read more here (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/haplogroup-by3604-updates/scandinavian-by3604/))

So one Dane in Z367 and I count 32 flags from the British Isles at Ytree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1028&star=false)
This still makes me believe that Z367 came from the British Isles to Denmark and not the other way around.

Best wishes, Anders

falconson1
11-05-2019, 02:39 AM
Deleted - double posted.

falconson1
11-05-2019, 02:40 AM
Since L20 is more common on the British Isles than in Denmark, I still believe that we Danish R-Z367 are the odd ones - not the other way round.
A match to one Dane does not prove that L20 is Danish - it could just as well prove to the Dane that L20 is from the British Isles.

If you take a look at Z367 at Ytree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1028&star=false), there is just one Dane - me :-)

And even though we lack the smoking gun, there is a high chance that my paternal line was actually from Sweden, where the two Swedish BY3604 samples come from. At least we have so far tested 4 completely unrelated Swedes BY3604+ and three of them can trace their paternal line to the same small Swedish village (4th tester is an 19th century NPE). And there are some traces that my furthest ancestor actually also came from Sweden to Denmark (read more here (http://www.morup-petersen.dk/BY3604/haplogroup-by3604-updates/scandinavian-by3604/))

So one Dane in Z367 and I count 32 flags from the British Isles at Ytree (https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1028&star=false)
This still makes me believe that Z367 came from the British Isles to Denmark and not the other way around.

Best wishes, Anders

There is zero evidence of the existence of either Z367 or L20 in the thousands of ancient DNA samples obtained to date UNTIL the 10th Century AD with two L20 samples found in Viking Era Denmark - one on Funen Island and the other on Langeland Island. There are now hundreds of ancient DNA samples from Great Britain from the Neolithic through the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. Again no Z367 or L20. Even in Medieval Central Europe, the three U152 Langobard samples from circa 625 AD (Hungary and Italy) were L2 only. The sample from Italy listed as Z367 in the study is, according to Alex, who reviewed the BAM files, are not even U152.
All of the hundred or so Bronze Age samples from the Bell Beaker and other cultures - again only L2 (in abundance). So where do we look for the early L20? The age estimates that are bandied around are only "educated guesses" not based on direct evidence. Perhaps one day we will see L20 in Bronze Age samples - but not yet. Again the earliest samples are all from Denmark.

DAMIGNY
11-05-2019, 08:39 AM
It's the same thing in Normandy. Viking did not necessarily have Scandinavian DNA. The Irish Viking have mostly invaded the west coast of cotentin where the presence of M222 and the village Nehou (origin oNeel), and most of them had a "DNA Irish". and the presence of many names (Neel, Noel , etc.).

There was also a significant contribution of Viking "Anglo Danish" on the east coast of Cotentin. Viking in English genetics originating from the DANELAG region in England.

have a good day.

jcmax68
11-05-2019, 01:52 PM
There is zero evidence of the existence of either Z367 or L20 in the thousands of ancient DNA samples obtained to date UNTIL the 10th Century AD with two L20 samples found in Viking Era Denmark - one on Funen Island and the other on Langeland Island. There are now hundreds of ancient DNA samples from Great Britain from the Neolithic through the Bronze Age and the Iron Age. Again no Z367 or L20. Even in Medieval Central Europe, the three U152 Langobard samples from circa 625 AD (Hungary and Italy) were L2 only. The sample from Italy listed as Z367 in the study is, according to Alex, who reviewed the BAM files, are not even U152.
All of the hundred or so Bronze Age samples from the Bell Beaker and other cultures - again only L2 (in abundance). So where do we look for the early L20? The age estimates that are bandied around are only "educated guesses" not based on direct evidence. Perhaps one day we will see L20 in Bronze Age samples - but not yet. Again the earliest samples are all from Denmark.

It's always been unclear to me whether more refined subclade analysis could have been done (and maybe still could be done) on the ancient samples. Is it possible L20s are there but the analysis only refined to U152 or L2? I don't know what the age of L20 is, but Stephen Gilbert over at FTDNA U152 project seems to think if predates Bronze Age, and that it is the various subclades of L20 that spread throughout the continent and (presumably) up into Jutland (Cimbri) and potentially some into British Isles. Rich Rocca opined that L20 likely came into Britain with La Tene Celts (from...? Jutland? Belgicae?) Here is Mr. Gilbert's exact quote: "Regarding L20, it has been spread by the late Bell Beaker, Unetice and early Tumulus cultures. Subclades of L20 has been spread by the Hallstatt and Urnfield cultures. La Tène culture arrived much after than the early spread of L20 and its subclades." I have no idea, who's dating estimate is most accurate. I really hope my Danish Y67 match Mr. Pedersen upgrades to BigY700. I think that could conceivably give us some useful information to extrapolate from.

guy dupond
11-05-2019, 05:12 PM
If you are interested by viking history. A zoom on brittany exist
http://bcd.bzh/becedia/fr/la-bretagne-viking-913-936
its in french but google traduction is usefull

extract :
"The rare genetic elements that we have at our disposal even allow Jean-Christophe Cassard to suggest that the Norman settlement was probably more important in Brittany than in Normandy."

Helgenes50
11-05-2019, 05:48 PM
If you are interested by viking history. A zoom on brittany exist
http://bcd.bzh/becedia/fr/la-bretagne-viking-913-936
its in french but google traduction is usefull

extract :
"The rare genetic elements that we have at our disposal even allow Jean-Christophe Cassard to suggest that the Norman settlement was probably more important in Brittany than in Normandy."

The Leicester study on the DNA of Nord-Cotentin (North-West Normandy) does not show it, we rather see the opposite. Now if that is the case, by considering the number of Britons in the Cotentin, I think it will be necessary to reverse the names on the maps.
What is sure the bretons are more interested by their distant origin than their neighbors, very easy to see on this forum.

I advise Cassard to look closer at the genetics of both regions before writing a new book on the topic.

Without forgetting that the Cotentin was Breton until 933

A.Morup
11-05-2019, 07:13 PM
It's always been unclear to me whether more refined subclade analysis could have been done (and maybe still could be done) on the ancient samples. Is it possible L20s are there but the analysis only refined to U152 or L2? I don't know what the age of L20 is, but Stephen Gilbert over at FTDNA U152 project seems to think if predates Bronze Age, and that it is the various subclades of L20 that spread throughout the continent and (presumably) up into Jutland (Cimbri) and potentially some into British Isles. Rich Rocca opined that L20 likely came into Britain with La Tene Celts (from...? Jutland? Belgicae?) Here is Mr. Gilbert's exact quote: "Regarding L20, it has been spread by the late Bell Beaker, Unetice and early Tumulus cultures. Subclades of L20 has been spread by the Hallstatt and Urnfield cultures. La Tène culture arrived much after than the early spread of L20 and its subclades." I have no idea, who's dating estimate is most accurate. I really hope my Danish Y67 match Mr. Pedersen upgrades to BigY700. I think that could conceivably give us some useful information to extrapolate from.
I agree that scientific samples are not always analysed down to the the lower haplogroups - too bad!
There are probably many scientific L20 and Z367 samples out there that just haven't been refined to that level.
The Yfull estimate for Z367 is 4.200 years bp and L20 4.100 years bp - there must be some bronze age Z367 and L20 out there!

I would like to see the links to those Danish L20 samples - maybe they are just among the few ones analyzed down to that level - Eske Willerslev is Danish after all ;-)

I would advice you to see if Mr. Pedersen is willing to upgrade to BigY in this sale - just do not promise more than the BigY can hold (so no promise of more matches and so on).
A cheap alternative is to test Mr. Pedersen for L20 at Yseq - the price is only 24 USD (or 21 EUR / 19 GDP) including kit and postage to Denmark: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=23505

I often offer my matches to test them for BY3604 (the closest haplogroup I spend my own money on) at Yseq.
If they are BY3604+ we can always look into how to get them to that BigY + Yfull.

And no not forget to get data on Mr. Pedersens most distant paternal ancestor too!

/ Anders

BTW - I am off to Langeland this weekend, but no time to dig for bones ;-)

falconson1
11-05-2019, 09:06 PM
I agree that scientific samples are not always analysed down to the the lower haplogroups - too bad!
There are probably many scientific L20 and Z367 samples out there that just haven't been refined to that level.
The Yfull estimate for Z367 is 4.200 years bp and L20 4.100 years bp - there must be some bronze age Z367 and L20 out there!



As far as I know, in all of the Bronze Age studies where L2 has been found (e.g., Olalade et al., 2018), they have also tested for L20. Rich could confirm this.

Enjoy your voyage to Langeland. I really think that Funen is the "home base" of L20 (and other U152 clades for that matter) in Denmark - at least after the Angles left. Hope that Willerslev is sitting on a "mother load" of Danish samples from the Bronze Age on and that he will publish a Danish ancient genomic study soon, if not tomorrow. I keep planning to write to him, lots of good intentions, but actions of course speak louder than words.

jcmax68
11-08-2019, 07:42 PM
Pretty cool stuff. Just got BigY700 match confirmation of terminal SNP match with a distant cousin that we both knew from paper genealogy and our independent family histories that we had to be descendants off a common male ancestor in colonial North Carolina. Interesting that our terminal SNP is same since there is almost 300 years back to our MRCA. Since SNPs are estimated to mutate every 88 years, there was a chance we might be a few SNPs off. But as it turns out, his terminal SNP is the same as mine, my paternal uncle, and my two sons. It is really an amazing feeling to see that terminal SNP confirmation, instantly bridging almost three centuries of generational gap. I suppose FTDNA may still be analyzing so maybe a further split will manifest. There are 16 SNPs in my terminal SNP (FT20578) block.

DAMIGNY
11-09-2019, 09:00 AM
Hello jmax 69
It is where FT20578. ? me, I am FT105139 under the s1505 branch of the L20. I found a common ancestor 2500 years ago in Scotland (500 - JC). Then an ancestor around 800 - 900 + JC located in northern Ireland. Then I only have private SNPs. it corresponds to the invasion of the Irish viking in the area of Saint lo. I have a match with a lot of markers with a Mc Nabb in caroline.
a +

jcmax68
11-12-2019, 08:22 PM
Hello jmax 69
It is where FT20578. ? me, I am FT105139 under the s1505 branch of the L20. I found a common ancestor 2500 years ago in Scotland (500 - JC). Then an ancestor around 800 - 900 + JC located in northern Ireland. Then I only have private SNPs. it corresponds to the invasion of the Irish viking in the area of Saint lo. I have a match with a lot of markers with a Mc Nabb in caroline.
a +

Interesting. I can't find that SNP on FTDNA's subclades of S1505 on public haplotree, I guess because it is a private SNP. Still haven't quite resolved the time frame of FT20578. Assuming its pretty recent, its around 1600 ypb to BY69713 (300-400 AD), the SNP I share with Mr. Black. He also traces to N. Ireland in early 1800s. Presumably he and I are both descended from transplants from Scotland to Ulster in 1600s.

jcmax68
11-13-2019, 01:34 PM
FYI: For any interested if you think you might trace back to a Viking origin, and your kits are on FTDNA, there is a Viking project on FTDNA that I only recently discovered and have joined. https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/vikingydna/activity-feed I posted with the caveat that I'm still trying to confirm a Danish/Viking origin of my Y line in the British Isles.

jcmax68
12-13-2019, 01:40 PM
Here is an interesting doctoral thesis on the Y haplogroups of the Faroe Islands. https://ir.library.louisville.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1900&context=etd Note the heavy R1a presence, followed by R1b and I1. See also https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8620571_The_origin_of_the_isolated_population_of_t he_Faroe_Islands_investigated_using_Y_chromosomal_ markers I think the high R1a (and linkage to Denmark) is interesting in light of Clan MacDonald claim of R1a being Somerled's haplogroup. Not entirely clear how old the R1b on Faroe is, but assuming it came in about same time as the R1a it would support that R1b was also among the Danes who ultimately moved down the western Scottish Isles and into Northern Ireland. I'm embarrassed to say that I was unfamiliar with the strong Danish connection to the Faroe Islands. Too early to tell, but if at least some of the R1b on Faroe is U152>L20, and has been there since the 9th Century AD, that would add further support that my Antrim U152>L20 line has a Norse-Gael origin.

jcmax68
12-13-2019, 05:37 PM
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28947-Analysis-of-R1b-subclades-in-Scandinavia "It's harder to explain how so much U152 got to Scandinavia. It might have come with Celtic northward migrations during the Bronze and/or Iron ages, and/or with migration from (southern) Germany since the Middle Ages. The U152 members at FTDNA are concentrated in Denmark and along the Swedish-Norwegian border, in a straight north-south axis."

falconson1
12-13-2019, 06:43 PM
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28947-Analysis-of-R1b-subclades-in-Scandinavia "It's harder to explain how so much U152 got to Scandinavia. It might have come with Celtic northward migrations during the Bronze and/or Iron ages, and/or with migration from (southern) Germany since the Middle Ages. The U152 members at FTDNA are concentrated in Denmark and along the Swedish-Norwegian border, in a straight north-south axis."

Why is none of this of any surprise to me ;) Nor was the discovery of U152 > L2 > L20 on Funen and Langeland Islands in Denmark in the 2019 "Viking Genomes" ancient DNA study in the least puzzling.

anglesqueville
12-14-2019, 06:18 PM
If you are interested by viking history. A zoom on brittany exist
http://bcd.bzh/becedia/fr/la-bretagne-viking-913-936
its in french but google traduction is usefull

extract :
"The rare genetic elements that we have at our disposal even allow Jean-Christophe Cassard to suggest that the Norman settlement was probably more important in Brittany than in Normandy."

I wonder what these mysterious "genetic elements" are. I could, of course, buy Cassard's books, but I won't. What does a small handful of supposed Nordic toponyms in Brittany weigh against the huge mass of confirmed ones in Normandy? It all sounds like nationalist literature, to tell it politely.

jcmax68
12-17-2019, 04:11 PM
Why is none of this of any surprise to me ;) Nor was the discovery of U152 > L2 > L20 on Funen and Langeland Islands in Denmark in the 2019 "Viking Genomes" ancient DNA study in the least puzzling.

Ha! Yes sir! FYI, one of my Y111 matches surnamed Hinson (probably a corruption of Hansen) just upped to BigY700 and his results are a match to me with only 4x non-matching variants. His (current) terminal SNP is also FT20578, though presumably his line and mine split somewhere among the other 16x SNPs in that block. So now I have a BigY700 match with a likely Danish surname origin of Hansen, in addition to my Y67 match with Danish roots surnamed Pedersen. The data just keeps getting stronger that my Wilkinson line ended up in British Isles during the Viking age. What's going to make genealogy difficult is patronymic convention among Danes. Unless we get lucky and the lines in British Isles adopted Norman surnaming conventions post conquest. But even if so, it must have happened several centuries after the Viking age. My Y67 and higher matches are Wilkinson, Wilkerson, Hinson, Pedersen, Blair, Clarke and MacNeil. The last traces to Tiree in Western Isles, so I'm increasingly thinking that our lines may have been Norse-Gaels in the Western Isles and Northern Ireland since 800s, rather than lowland Scots who came to Antrim in Plantation era. But too soon to draw any final conclusions by a long shot.

jcmax68
12-17-2019, 08:46 PM
There are at least 3x Z367+ on FTDNA's Norway project. However, none of them appear to be STR matches to me. I have 7x Y25 matches there, but none appear to be Z367 or L20.

jcmax68
12-23-2019, 07:54 PM
Dr. Faux/everyone, I was puttering around with Family Finder on FTDNA and happened on a Milam match who is U152>L20. His terminal SNP is R-BY34096, a subclade of CTS9733. I found it interesting in that I have several other low level Y matches (Y25) of Milam's in the U152 project, but this Milam isn't one of them. Most of the Y match Milam's are also Z367, L20 or CTS9733. There is also an R-BY67643 (also a CTS9733 subclade). My recollection is that Milam surname has a Kent connection so I'm wondering if these lines were among the Jutes from ~5th-6th century. But I could have sworn at one time I thought CTS9733 was associated as a Pictish marker? I may be misremembering however.

jcmax68
02-06-2020, 10:50 PM
Dr. Faux, just checking in to see if you've got your BigY700 results yet. Curious to hear. cheers.

DAMIGNY
02-10-2020, 05:43 PM
Bonjour Jcmax68.

Je suis FT165139, sous le s1505.
Je suis de la branche des Boylan apparemment. Je match beaucoup en irelande du nord et ecosse, et aucun match en normandie. !! Mes origines sont du Sud Manche , puis de cherbourg. Je n'ai aucun match en normandie car dernier descendant de ma famille dont l'origine est connue venant d'un viking irelandais en 860. D'apres d'autres forum, je suis issu du groupe Hiberno- Norse d'origine danoise.

falconson1
02-10-2020, 06:24 PM
Dr. Faux, just checking in to see if you've got your BigY700 results yet. Curious to hear. cheers.

Hello jcmax68. Just looked at the progress shown on my FTDNA site - as of 27 November they were "Analyzing the Data". No estimated completion date. Will provide terminal SNP info when available. Thanks for asking.

jcmax68
02-10-2020, 11:45 PM
Bonjour Jcmax68.

Je suis FT165139, sous le s1505.
Je suis de la branche des Boylan apparemment. Je match beaucoup en irelande du nord et ecosse, et aucun match en normandie. !! Mes origines sont du Sud Manche , puis de cherbourg. Je n'ai aucun match en normandie car dernier descendant de ma famille dont l'origine est connue venant d'un viking irelandais en 860. D'apres d'autres forum, je suis issu du groupe Hiberno- Norse d'origine danoise.

Thanks, Damigny! You have the same terminal SNP as a fellow on FTDNA also traces his paternal line to Norse Gaels out of Dublin ~890. His Y Haplo is also L20 like mine but we have different terminal SNPs. Or is that you, Pierre?

jcmax68
02-10-2020, 11:51 PM
@Damigny, after translating I see it must be you, Pierre. Bonjour!

DAMIGNY
02-11-2020, 08:10 AM
Bonjour Jmax, oui s'est moi.
D'apres un frere , mes ancetres sont venus avec le roi Aigroil (Harald la dent bleue ?) en 938 et auxquels le duc Richard avait donné la région de Cherbourg, puis ils seraient descendus dans la region de st lo.
D'apres moi, ils sont venus en 890 , lors de la destruction de saint lo ( sud costentin).

jcmax68
02-11-2020, 05:30 PM
Bonjour Jmax, oui s'est moi.
D'apres un frere , mes ancetres sont venus avec le roi Aigroil (Harald la dent bleue ?) en 938 et auxquels le duc Richard avait donné la région de Cherbourg, puis ils seraient descendus dans la region de st lo.
D'apres moi, ils sont venus en 890 , lors de la destruction de saint lo ( sud costentin).

Fascinating. Well either way it is Viking and L20. That is tremendously interesting. You should contact Margaryan who did the Danish Viking remains study an found two L20 skeletons. Perhaps they will match your terminal SNP!

hadleyro
02-12-2020, 08:48 PM
We have quite a cluster now of Hadleys and a gentleman from Trinidad both whose familes are Irish/English with the break from Scandinavia at R-Z275: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617 and Scale Innovation shows a couple of timeframes into Denmark: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

jcmax68
02-12-2020, 11:25 PM
We have quite a cluster now of Hadleys and a gentleman from Trinidad both whose familes are Irish/English with the break from Scandinavia at R-Z275: https://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=1617 and Scale Innovation shows a couple of timeframes into Denmark: http://scaledinnovation.com/gg/snpTracker.html

Interesting. If you back the ytree out to Z367, I'm way down at the right end under L20. I was interested to see Blairs down in your neighborhood on the tree. I have some Y67 Blair matches, but we aren't BigY terminal SNP matches. I wonder if they are the same folks?