T1a1a-L208 from the Danube banks ( Ancient DNA )

[AndresT]

Mesolithic and Early Neolithic samples from Europe with Scandinavian HG + Ukrainian HG + Aegean Farmer autosomal combination.

This autosomal combination is found exclusively among ancient populations found around the Danube river. Also interesting to note the haplogroups found with this combination are R1b-V88, C1a2-V20 and T1a1a-L208. Curiously, R1b-V88 as well as T1a1a-L208 are both the lineages that migrated strongly deep into Africa, across the Sahel both and across all East Africa the last.

Also remember that both have been found among the Tubus of Chad, who were found to be strongly related to a LBK-like ancestral population.

Also I added the two samples with highest frequencies for both HG populations when combined with Aegean Farmer.

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[Nasser]

Interesting..so r v88 was a European farmer lineage that migrated to Africa ?

[drobbah]

Mesolithic and Early Neolithic samples from Europe with Scandinavian HG + Ukrainian HG + Aegean Farmer autosomal combination.

This autosomal combination is found exclusively among ancient populations found around the Danube river. Also interesting to note the haplogroups found with this combination are R1b-V88, C1a2-V20 and T1a1a-L208. Curiously, R1b-V88 as well as T1a1a-L208 are both the lineages that migrated strongly deep into Africa, across the Sahel both and across all East Africa the last.

Also remember that both have been found among the Tubus of Chad, who were found to be strongly related to a LBK-like ancestral population.

Also I added the two samples with highest frequencies for both HG populations when combined with Aegean Farmer.

18105

R1b definently migrated "strongly" into the Sahel but the same can't really be said about T-M70 in the Horn or South East Africa.Don't get me wrong it definitely migrated to these areas alongside the more dominant North African E1b1b lineages but the fact is that T-M70 has a minor presence in the Horn (most ethnic groups have under 10%) except Somalis due to a founder effect which is quite common among pastoralist groups.

Also wasn't T-M70 found among the Neolithic Levantines? The fact the T-M70 is found among Neolithic farmers in Europe isn't too surprising then

[vettor]

R1b definently migrated "strongly" into the Sahel but the same can't really be said about T-M70 in the Horn or South East Africa.Don't get me wrong it definitely migrated to these areas alongside the more dominant North African E1b1b lineages but the fact is that T-M70 has a minor presence in the Horn (most ethnic groups have under 10%) except Somalis due to a founder effect which is quite common among pastoralist groups.

Also wasn't T-M70 found among the Neolithic Levantines? The fact the T-M70 is found among Neolithic farmers in Europe isn't too surprising then

IIRC that levantine T1a1 was originally from north east Anatolia

[AndresT]

R1b definently migrated "strongly" into the Sahel but the same can't really be said about T-M70 in the Horn or South East Africa.Don't get me wrong it definitely migrated to these areas alongside the more dominant North African E1b1b lineages but the fact is that T-M70 has a minor presence in the Horn (most ethnic groups have under 10%) except Somalis due to a founder effect which is quite common among pastoralist groups.

Also wasn't T-M70 found among the Neolithic Levantines? The fact the T-M70 is found among Neolithic farmers in Europe isn't too surprising then


There are none fact about T1a1a-L208 travelling alongside with E1b in ancient times, definitively there is nothing close to a "alongside". This "minor presence" that is because a major migration, changed absolutely the autosomal composition of most of the East African populations. Good example are the Somalis with T1a1a-L208 reaching 80-100% among Dir Clan to less among other non-Dir Clans but autosomally all of them are close to 50% Eurasians not because of a E1b impact ( who represents in fact the African half ) but to an autosomal impact via ancient T1a carriers. The Eurasian impact into East Africa is significant.
Modern frequencies and distributions doesn't equal necessarily to Ancient Genetic landscapes nor how those ancient groups impacted one to another.

Talking about a "dominant" E1b in North Africa is as significant as talking of "dominance" of D haplogroup in Andaman. As well as we can talk about dominance of whole E in most of the continental Africa.

The T1a-M70 have not been found among ancient Early Neolithic Levantines but instead T1-L206 (x T1a1, T1a2, T1a3a) belonging to T1b.

[AndresT]

E1b populations not the same autosomally after Neolithic invasions

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[drobbah]

There are none fact about T1a1a-L208 travelling alongside with E1b in ancient times, definitively there is nothing close to a "alongside".

T-M70 was spread by Cushite speakers who left the Red Sea hills 8-10k years ago which is why you can find it among the Iraqw of Tanzania.I have no doubt in my mind that T was one of the minor lineages among the Cushites just like V32 (other E-M215 lineages),A-M13 and J1.


This "minor presence" that is because a major migration, changed absolutely the autosomal composition of most of the East African populations. Good example are the Somalis with T1a1a-L208 reaching 80-100% among Dir Clan to less among other non-Dir Clans but autosomally all of them are close to 50% Eurasians not because of a E1b impact ( who represents in fact the African half ) but to an autosomal impact via ancient T1a carriers. The Eurasian impact into East Africa is significant.
I can't take this part seriously lol.Please tell me more about this "massive" T-M70 invasion :eyebrows:



Talking about a "dominant" E1b in North Africa is as significant as talking of "dominance" of D haplogroup in Andaman. As well as we can talk about dominance of whole E in most of the continental Africa. The fact is that wherever T-M70 is found in the Horn/East Africa the majority's of the lineages of those ethnic groups would be E1b1b (M78 for example) that originated up north.T-M70 simply tagged along in Egypt/Sudan nothing more.If you want to believe some fanciful tale of some pure Eurasian T-M70 folks venturing south and invading the Cushites and leaving no autosomal signature or language than you are truly delusional.

[drobbah]

E1b populations not the same autosomally after Neolithic invasions

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You do realize the Natufians were E1b1b men?

[AndresT]

T-M70 was spread by Cushite speakers who left the Red Sea hills 8-10k years ago which is why you can find it among the Iraqw of Tanzania.I have no doubt in my mind that T was one of the minor lineages among the Cushites just like V32 (other E-M215 lineages),A-M13 and J1.


I can't take this part seriously lol.Please tell me more about this "massive" T-M70 invasion :eyebrows:


The fact is that wherever T-M70 is found in the Horn/East Africa the majority's of the lineages of those ethnic groups would be E1b1b (M78 for example) that originated up north.T-M70 simply tagged along in Egypt/Sudan nothing more.If you want to believe some fanciful tale of some pure Eurasian T-M70 folks venturing south and invading the Cushites and leaving no autosomal signature or language than you are truly delusional.

"T-M70 was spread by Cushite speakers who left the Red Sea hills 8-10k years ago which is why you can find it among the Iraqw of Tanzania."

Absolutly fantasy. Do you have none fact about this. This is unsupported by T1a1a-L208 diversity in East Africa.

"I have no doubt in my mind that T was one of the minor lineages among the Cushites just like V32"

I have no doubt about your nationalistic beliefs. But nor my thoughts nor your thoughts means nothing here. You have no proofs about all of your claims.

"I can't take this part seriously lol.Please tell me more about this "massive" T-M70 invasion" :D

Better wait for Ancient DNA and see where come from the 50% Eurasian autosomal DNA :) I can sure you that E1b is not the source

[AndresT]

I realize that Natufians lived a bit North than Nubians and intermingled a bit more with Eurasian populations too. Anyway, If you are trying to tell us nothing about Cranial differences, yes there are subsaharian-like features among Natufians when compared with Neolithic invaders.

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Do you have an interesting study about this: Noreen von Cramon-Taubadel et al 2013

[drobbah]

You said North East African men (E-M215) became more "Eurasian" because of "Neolithic invasions" yet Natufians who preceded Neolithic Levantines were entirely Eurasian of origin (autosoamlly) which defeats your moronic theory of random T-M70 stragglers being able to affect the entire North East African region and implying they are the reason NE Africa has Eurasian ancestry.

Secondly you still haven't said who brought this T-M70 all the way south in your opinion into areas like Tanzania and possibly as far as South Africa.Who besides Cushites could have brought it there? T-M70 fairies and unicorns perhaps?

There is no point in debating your kind.I have encountered many Europeans that carry T-M70 and all you lot want to do is "whitewash" history and make it seem like some massive invasion of Eurasian males took place when in fact it seems it's the other way around considering North East African lineages like E-M78 are far more dominant in West Eurasia than T-M70.

[vettor]

You said North East African men (E-M215) became more "Eurasian" because of "Neolithic invasions" yet Natufians who preceded Neolithic Levantines were entirely Eurasian of origin (autosoamlly) which defeats your moronic theory of random T-M70 stragglers being able to affect the entire North East African region and implying they are the reason NE Africa has Eurasian ancestry.

Secondly you still haven't said who brought this T-M70 all the way south in your opinion into areas like Tanzania and possibly as far as South Africa.Who besides Cushites could have brought it there? T-M70 fairies and unicorns perhaps?

There is no point in debating your kind.I have encountered many Europeans that carry T-M70 and all you lot want to do is "whitewash" history and make it seem like some massive invasion of Eurasian males took place when in fact it seems it's the other way around considering North East African lineages like E-M78 are far more dominant in West Eurasia than T-M70.

I don't know about branch T1a1 as I am T1a2 , but T1a was created in Asia ..........most likely northern Iran , like the T project administrators state

K2-M70 is believed to have originated in Asia after the emergence of the K-M9 polymorphism (45–30 ky) (Underhill et al. 2001a). As deduced from the collective data (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002; present study), K2-M70 individuals, at some later point, proceeded south to Africa. These chromosomes are seen in relatively high frequencies in Egypt, Oman, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Morocco and are especially prominent in the Fulbe (18% [Scozzari et al. 1997, 1999]), the highest concentration of this haplogroup found so far. The current patchy distribution of K2-M70 in Africa may be a remnant of a more widespread occupation. Subsequent demic events introducing chromosomes carrying the E3b-M35, E3a-M2, G-M201, and J-12f2 haplogroups may have overwhelmed the K2-M70 representatives in some areas. Like the R1*-M173 males, the M70 individuals could represent the relics of an early back migration to Africa from Asia, since these chromosomes are not associated with the G-M201, J-12f2, and R1-M173 derivatives, lineages that represent more-recent Eurasian genetic contributions (Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001b). The K2-M70 expansion estimates in Egypt (17.5–13.7 ky; see table 3) are consistent with an early African diaspora. From the present-day African distribution of K2-M70, it is difficult to determine which of the two Africa/Asia migratory passages, if any, prevailed in its southward journey. However, the BATWING expansion estimates of both the Egyptian and Turkish K2-M70 lineages (13.7 ky and 9.0 ky, respectively) are much older than that of Oman (1.6 ky), which suggests that the Levantine corridor may have been used more extensively in the African dissemination of this lineage as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

How did it get to somali must have been via Egypt and not via the arabian peninsula ..............Oman is very young for T1 , how old is Somali T as the cushite IIRC disappeared by 300BC

[drobbah]

Cushites didn't disappear at 300 BC...We are still here and in the millions my brudda

[AndresT]

You said North East African men (E-M215) became more "Eurasian" because of "Neolithic invasions" yet Natufians who preceded Neolithic Levantines were entirely Eurasian of origin (autosoamlly) which defeats your moronic theory of random T-M70 stragglers being able to affect the entire North East African region and implying they are the reason NE Africa has Eurasian ancestry.

Secondly you still haven't said who brought this T-M70 all the way south in your opinion into areas like Tanzania and possibly as far as South Africa.Who besides Cushites could have brought it there? T-M70 fairies and unicorns perhaps?

There is no point in debating your kind.I have encountered many Europeans that carry T-M70 and all you lot want to do is "whitewash" history and make it seem like some massive invasion of Eurasian males took place when in fact it seems it's the other way around considering North East African lineages like E-M78 are far more dominant in West Eurasia than T-M70.

You belief that Natufians are "Eurasians" but the only reason because they can't be splitted between two or more different ancient populations is because there is no more ancient and ancestral populations tested. Actually, there is lack of Ancient samples in order to split the Natufian ancestry.

Natufians are a northeast corner African population with Eurasian influx, nothing more nothing less. Actually is the most southern Mesolithic population tested up to date. You only need to wait.

[AndresT]

I don't know about branch T1a1 as I am T1a2 , but T1a was created in Asia ..........most likely northern Iran , like the T project administrators state

K2-M70 is believed to have originated in Asia after the emergence of the K-M9 polymorphism (45–30 ky) (Underhill et al. 2001a). As deduced from the collective data (Underhill et al. 2000; Cruciani et al. 2002; Semino et al. 2002; present study), K2-M70 individuals, at some later point, proceeded south to Africa. These chromosomes are seen in relatively high frequencies in Egypt, Oman, Tanzania, Ethiopia, and Morocco and are especially prominent in the Fulbe (18% [Scozzari et al. 1997, 1999]), the highest concentration of this haplogroup found so far. The current patchy distribution of K2-M70 in Africa may be a remnant of a more widespread occupation. Subsequent demic events introducing chromosomes carrying the E3b-M35, E3a-M2, G-M201, and J-12f2 haplogroups may have overwhelmed the K2-M70 representatives in some areas. Like the R1*-M173 males, the M70 individuals could represent the relics of an early back migration to Africa from Asia, since these chromosomes are not associated with the G-M201, J-12f2, and R1-M173 derivatives, lineages that represent more-recent Eurasian genetic contributions (Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2001b). The K2-M70 expansion estimates in Egypt (17.5–13.7 ky; see table 3) are consistent with an early African diaspora. From the present-day African distribution of K2-M70, it is difficult to determine which of the two Africa/Asia migratory passages, if any, prevailed in its southward journey. However, the BATWING expansion estimates of both the Egyptian and Turkish K2-M70 lineages (13.7 ky and 9.0 ky, respectively) are much older than that of Oman (1.6 ky), which suggests that the Levantine corridor may have been used more extensively in the African dissemination of this lineage as well.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182266/

How did it get to somali must have been via Egypt and not via the arabian peninsula ..............Oman is very young for T1 , how old is Somali T as the cushite IIRC disappeared by 300BC

Vettor, these studies are a bit outdated. Haplogroup T1a-M70 most probably appeared somewhere around the Black Sea.

Mesolithic Levant was virtually empty of T1a-M70 not only in the Mesolithic Levant but also in all the Neolithic stages, also is not found among the Mesolithic Iran samples nor Neolithic Anatolia nor Neolithic Zagros. This could change when more ancient samples will be tested but today there is none T1a-M70 sample found out of Europe in Ancient times.

[drobbah]

You belief that Natufians are "Eurasians" but the only reason because they can't be splitted between two or more different ancient populations is because there is no more ancient and ancestral populations tested. Actually, there is lack of Ancient samples in order to split the Natufian ancestry.

Natufians are a northeast corner African population with Eurasian influx, nothing more nothing less. Actually is the most southern Mesolithic population tested up to date. You only need to wait.
Natufians are mixed between crown Eurasians and Basal Eurasians....And they are not a NE African population since they are from the Southern Levant but their lineages are from NE Africa.If anything these NE lineages they carry are intrusive in the Levant.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/311pgrq.jpg


I only brought up the Natufians since you claimed that NE Africa received majority of their "Eurasian" ancestry because of T-M70 yet there was a Levantine population with NE African male lineages who were purely Eurasian (non SSA) without your T-M70 in sight untill the Neolithic.In NE Africa T-M70 were stragglers that tagged along the more dominant V32 and E-M293 lineages into the Horn and beyond! I honestly think you want to create some kind of grand and magnificent stories about your lineage because you feel insecure about it's distribution.

This is my final response to you.Have a great day!

[AndresT]

Natufians are mixed between crown Eurasians and Basal Eurasians....And they are not a NE African population since they are from the Southern Levant but their lineages are from NE Africa.If anything these NE lineages they carry are intrusive in the Levant.

http://oi65.tinypic.com/311pgrq.jpg


I only brought up the Natufians since you claimed that NE Africa received majority of their "Eurasian" ancestry because of T-M70 yet there was a Levantine population with NE African male lineages who were purely Eurasian (non SSA) without your T-M70 in sight untill the Neolithic.In NE Africa T-M70 were stragglers that tagged along the more dominant V32 and E-M293 lineages into the Horn and beyond! I honestly think you want to create some kind of grand and magnificent stories about your lineage because you feel insecure about it's distribution.

This is my final response to you.Have a great day!

As I said previously, there is no enough Ancient populations tested. Is not possible to split Natufians more than you are showing "45% of the Ghost population "Basal Eurasian".

They are not geographically NE African, but we are talking about DNA and yes they are NE African genetically with Eurasian influx.

They are not "purely Eurasian", they have Eurasian mixture. Also, there are not enough samples to find which Eurasian YDNA was involved in such ancient mixture, only the mtDNA is a clear indicator. Eurasian mtDNA + African YDNA = we expect to see Eurasian YDNA + African mtDNA soon or later when they test more samples.

You like to be recreating your own fantasy movie but...there are studies and even age predictions that makes imposible your claim. There is no E1b + T1a funny travel. TMRCA and Expansion Ages doesn't fit. Too beautiful for some Somali unionists (mostly E1b as seen in your forums). Yes sure the other possibility is that you are insecure about your nationality and your lineage. I have read several times Dir and Garhajis and they see E1b as "Bantu-Oromo" brothers. So, who is insecure? What they, T1a Dirs, think about Saamale identity? They think he belong to E1b? Do you know that "NO" is the answer.
Who are the "Elite" Clan among Isaaq? Garhajis? and they belong to? T1a
Who are the most indisputable descendants of Saamale? Dirs? and they belong to? T1a

So here your fantasy, you E1b-Somalis need to remain close to your T1a1a neighbours to justify your identity. Because if E1b is not a Saamale descendant then your ancestor is "Mr None", this makes E1b as belonging to a ancient subdued population. Better to accepts this than beg an alien ancestor. Another strategy is deny Saamale existance because "if I can't be his descendant then none can't be".

[drobbah]

I won't insult my Garxajis maternal uncles for a random online troll but there is no elite subclan among Isaaq.Neither are V32 "Bantu-Oromos".Take your trolling attempts back to ABF or whatever shit anthro-racialist substandard forum you crawled out of.

[AndresT]

I won't insult my Garxajis maternal uncles for a random online troll but there is no elite subclan among Isaaq.Neither are V32 "Bantu-Oromos".Take your trolling attempts back to ABF or whatever shit anthro-racialist substandard forum you crawled out of.

They consider themselves as "Protector Clan" of the Isaaqs, this looks back on to a "Elite Clan".

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