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View Full Version : who was Mr L11 or Mr P312?



alan
07-31-2013, 12:54 AM
I think we lose site that most European R1b beyond the Balkans and eastern Europe descend from one man. Usually he is dated to around 2500BC. So just how did one man living at that time manage to do this? A feat not just of reproduction and growth of his line but also penetration and often a major part of the population of a vast part of Europe.

R.Rocca
07-31-2013, 11:45 AM
Mr. P312 was likelier to have been born around 3000 BC than 2500 BC. While the region of his birthplace may may never be known, I think it is likely somewhere in the Alps. With so many other lineages to compete with, I'm sure he had at least one (higher birthrate for haplogroup R) and perhaps two (lactose persistence) genetic advantages over his non-R contemporaries. He is also likely to have been in possession of a copper dagger and all it represented socially. As a tribe leader, he was probably much wealthier than his predecessors, no doubt due to easier accessibility of copper mining resources than his tribal rivals. This may seem like I'm stacking the deck a little too much in favor of this one man's advantages, but he did beat the odds and was the winner of the Western European lineage lottery and that takes multiple advantages and maybe a little bit of luck.

Did I throw in that our great-grandpa was also tall and devilishly handsome? :D

alan
07-31-2013, 12:07 PM
I can see why the involvement of a beaker element is popular as it is the only cultural group with widespread enough penetration at the right timeframe. Then we have to square what is an initially west to east movement culturally with an east west moving y line. I still have doubts about the concept of a pre-beaker move west simply because it doesnt have a cultural trail of any depth. Also craniology indicates that the earliest beaker peoples from Iberia to south France and the west Alpine fringes were similar to the local Neolithic people. There is no convincing L51-L11-p312* sequence in Iberia which looks more like the recipient than the doner. The Alps looks a far more convincing area for the L51-L11-P312* sequence to have taken place to me. An literalist connecting with beaker pot spreading from Iberia with R1B Just doesnt work IMO. At present there are no archaeologists arguing for an intrusive culture in terms of the pre-beaker copper age Iberia.

It looks to me that a non-R1b early beaker culture may have met already existing R1b groups in existing older copper age cultures around the Alps or adjacent. The main candidates for an existing pre-beaker culture in that sort of area include Remedello and Corded Ware as well as other groups on the immediate east side of the Alps. I am not massively into the craniology evidence but it would favour a link to the Remedello sort of lines and those of other cultures in east central Europe. We have had discussions before about the changes in craniology at Sion during the beaker phase.

So, IMO its easier to see R1b joining beaker somewhere well west of its origin. I am not clear about the details. We do find a concentration of L51 in Tyrol close to one of the biggest sources for arsenical copper in Europe too. Although it is tempting to link this to the Brixlegg find this is problematic IMO. The arsenical copper prills are unique, poor and the finds on the site are from Balkans pure copper. The Munchshofen culture c. 4500-4000BC of the Brixlegg site does have close links with the Carpathian basin. However, it seems too early to be linked to any surviving forms of R1b in Europe let alone L51 and the evidence is dubious and has been interpreted as as experimental. We later have Remedello sort of influences in that zone in the later pre-beaker copper age period. Remedello dates perhaps to around 3500BC onwards. It is interesting that although the ice man had links with this group, he did not belong to the physical type found in Remedello that prefigures the later beaker type. So, perhaps we shouldnt worry too much about him being a G man. Remedello's origins seem rather vague but if there is a Balkans link it is well worth recalling that the Balkans had steppe intrusions from 4200BC and a complex of hybrid cultures quickly sprang up. So links with large parts of the Balko-Carpatian zone where no longer simple links to Old Europe. It is suggested that around the time of the steppe intrusions copper mining moved west to places like Transylvania, Serbia, Slovakia etc. Some of these early steppe groups did clearly place themselves close to metal sources such as one of the early groups in Transylvania.

It seems natural to me to look towards somewhere like Hungary or adjacent countries to look for the pre-L51 element as it is close to where this and L51 meet. There was a very complex period in that areas with the intrusion of steppe groups c. 4200BC onwards and the almost immediate rise of hybrid steppe-old Europe groups like Tiszapolgar and others. It seems natural to look in the direction of the sequence of cultures in that zone c. 4200BC-3000BC to try to find the origin of the immediate predeccesors of L51 around the Alps but its very complex. One culture that links the more likely Kurgan influenced areas to the east to Austria area in the right time frame is Baden c. 3600BC-2800bc. Its a wooly concept as a culture but it occupied the zone immediately to the east of Tyrol in the right soer of timeframe for the L23-L51 transition.

There are of course other options maybe closer to the head of the Adriatic that might better link with Remedello on the Italian side of the Alps - although extending its influence north too. There is however a depressing lack of good papers online on this culture in English that describe its formation. I have heard hints about influences from the Balkans c. 3500BC but I do not know the details. Maybe RR could step in and help.

BTW, I rediscovered this website that has a sequence of cultural maps for the Balkans entire prehistory. While I cannot vouch for them being bang up to date I have never found such a collection of useful maps for the beginner in the subject on the web

http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/History/history-pre.htm

alan
07-31-2013, 12:14 PM
Do you have any information on the possible links between Remedello and the Balkans. By 3500BC the Balkans had been transformed in many areas by 700 years of steppe intrusions so a Balkans link c. 3500BC is far from incompatible with an earlier steppe origin.



Mr. P312 was likelier to have been born around 3000 BC than 2500 BC. While the region of his birthplace may may never be known, I think it is likely somewhere in the Alps. With so many other lineages to compete with, I'm sure he had at least one (higher birthrate for haplogroup R) and perhaps two (lactose persistence) genetic advantages over his non-R contemporaries. He is also likely to have been in possession of a copper dagger and all it represented socially. As a tribe leader, he was probably much wealthier than his predecessors, no doubt due to easier accessibility of copper mining resources than his tribal rivals. This may seem like I'm stacking the deck a little too much in favor of this one man's advantages, but he did beat the odds and was the winner of the Western European lineage lottery and that takes multiple advantages and maybe a little bit of luck.

Did I throw in that our great-grandpa was also tall and devilishly handsome? :D

alan
07-31-2013, 12:26 PM
Mr. P312 was likelier to have been born around 3000 BC than 2500 BC. While the region of his birthplace may may never be known, I think it is likely somewhere in the Alps. With so many other lineages to compete with, I'm sure he had at least one (higher birthrate for haplogroup R) and perhaps two (lactose persistence) genetic advantages over his non-R contemporaries. He is also likely to have been in possession of a copper dagger and all it represented socially. As a tribe leader, he was probably much wealthier than his predecessors, no doubt due to easier accessibility of copper mining resources than his tribal rivals. This may seem like I'm stacking the deck a little too much in favor of this one man's advantages, but he did beat the odds and was the winner of the Western European lineage lottery and that takes multiple advantages and maybe a little bit of luck.

Did I throw in that our great-grandpa was also tall and devilishly handsome? :D

I see a possibility that late L23-L51-L11-P312 sequence occurred in the Alps perhaps within Remedello and its zone of influence and had nothing to do with the beakers until Mr P312 or his early descendants married into the beaker network c. 2700BC around the Alps/central Europe. Perhaps his lineage was able to usurp the network and take it over. The only groups who could usurp a network like that were groups who firstly became aware of the network through contact with early beaker peoples (who basically stretched along the Med from Iberia to the Alps) also who also had pre-existing metallurgical knowhow. Such groups clearly did exist in and around the Alpine zone. Maybe it was an alliance that backfired on earlier non-R beaker people and ended up with them taking over and ultimately following the beaker network back towards source. I dont see a problem with the idea that R1b followed the network back to Iberia from somewhere around the Alps. Yes it means male lineage massive replacement from the mid 3rd millenium onwards but that is exactly what other models argue happened elsewhere so it cannot be said to be impossible. It might be backed up too by the change in physical type among beaker people after the mid 3rd millenium, a physical type that already existed around the Alps earlier in Remedello and probably the Balkans.

I like the idea of some chief in the Alps or adjacent who basically had some nerve centre and send out lineages taking over the old beaker network that he had usurped and extending it north too. Its actually relatively easy to envisage something like this happening. The sort of scenario might even be seen at Sion. The sort of transformations we see from the early beaker culture to the developed one could be the mark of this takeover. There was also a huge amoung that happened after 2700BC that could explain the modern distributions.

R.Rocca
07-31-2013, 01:05 PM
I see a possibility that late L23-L51-L11-P312 sequence occurred in the Alps perhaps within Remedello and its zone of influence and had nothing to do with the beakers until Mr P312 or his early descendants married into the beaker network c. 2700BC. Perhaps his lineage was able to usurp the network and take it over. The only groups who could usurp a network like that were groups who also had metallurgical knowhow and such groups clearly did exist in and around the Alpine zone. Maybe it was an alliance that backfired on the earlier beaker people and ended up with them taking over and ultimately following the beaker network back towards source. I dont see a problem with the idea that R1b followed the network back to Iberia from somewhere around the Alps. Yes it means male lineage massive replacement from the mid 3rd millenium onwards but that is exactly what other models argue happened elsewhere so it cannot be said to be impossible.

Culturally, Irish, French and Swiss Bell Beakers are more similar to the Iberian Bell Beaker complex than Central European Bell Beaker. Dental morphology of Swiss Bell Beaker clusters much closer to southern Bell Beaker than that of Central Europe. Menk's grouping of Spanish Bell Beaker skulls is closest to that of Southern France, Bohemia and Brunswick. Therefore, I cannot support an earlier non-R1b Bell Beaker presence in Iberia. In fact, there is really no argument against an already established presence of DF27 in the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker due to the distribution of Palmela Points all the way into southern Portugal.

emmental
07-31-2013, 03:17 PM
Jodler, aka, Mr. P312, was born in the year 3044 BC on his father’s vast estate surrounding the Natterer See in the highlands overlooking the site where the Wipptal empties in the Inn River. His clan had acquired much wealth through trade as they controlled the north gate of what we now call the Brenner Pass. Jodler, tall and devilishly handsome, being the eldest son, inherited large herds of cattle, sheep and goats when his father died. Jodler had several wives and was blessed with many sons. The younger sons, having no claim to the estate adventured South to the Po Valley to become agents for the family trade business.

alan
07-31-2013, 04:40 PM
@RR

I am not ruling out that alternative. The two models start of identically with some sort of pre-beaker copper age home for R1B around the Alps. The only real difference is west of Alps in southern France and Iberia. It is possible that that R1b got no far west than the Alps before developed beaker times.

I think there is a common error in terms of the way beaker culture is divided up on some maps. NW France and all of the isles were linked in terms of beaker to the Rhine groups. The only difference is that in the north-west lower impact and conservatism meant the single burial model was slightly delayed in being accepted generally. The Irish beaker pots are actually generally not at all like the Iberian ones other than one or two sherds of international types which could be from anywhere. They are much closer to the British and NW European ones around the Rhine and that includes the Ross Island mine pottery according to the monograph appendix on that site. I think there is a false impression of Irish beaker culture as 'Atlantic' simply because they were conservative in terms of burial forms but this conservatism is very different from Iberian and consists of the local pre-beaker practice of token cremations in pits in some areas and a completely new form of megalith called the Wedge Tomb that appears with beakers and has its best parallels in northern France. I think this conservatism is often taken wrongly as some sort of link between these conservative areas when in detail all they share is conservatism.

I think what we see in the isles is a Rhine-linked group judging by beaker type but whose impact gets lesser to the west where single burial takes longer to catch on. However, even this is only a delay. Something very similar to classic beaker single burials actually does catch on in Ireland about 2200BC about 200 years after the first beakers arrive and when beaker was still being used as a domestic ware but food vessels were used instead of beakers in the graves. A bog body of this sort of date in the classic burial pose of this period was found very recently in Ireland. Also Ireland's beaker trading connections in metalwork are almost exclusively with Britain and northern France and occasionally further into northern Europe. Ireland in prehistory generally had a habit of conservatism and also a thing about cremation which goes back to the early Mesolithic and never went away until the Christian era. Cremation tended to prevail even when it was very rare anywhere nearby including in the Mesolithic and the Neolithic. Ireland only tended to fall into line with practices elsewhere when other places took up cremation too. Incidentally the food vessel people were entered into a statistical analysis with the Neolithic people in an Irish study many years ago and they completely split. The Irish food vessel people were round headed and appear to have been exceptionally tall, the tallest in Europe in the period. They were very different cranially from the early beaker groups of southern Europe. Coon reckoned they were similar to some German beaker related group although I wouldnt trust his data very much and clearly Food Vessel people were an outcome of a century or so of beaker elements mixing with locals too.

So, I would be wary of maps that break beaker into zones. I think many zones just responded slightly differently to what was essenttially the same phenomenon and it is far to simplistic to split it just into Atlantic, Rhenish etc.


Anway to change the subject and go back in time further, I found this interesting French article discussing Remedello influence in the western Alps

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bspf_0249-7638_2005_num_102_2_13112

Seems to add lithics to the influences of Remedello on the Alpine groups. It just makes me want to be able to get my hands on more information about Remedello etc. I am fascinated by that group because of the appearance of a beaker-like type, the early date, the associations with the establishement of a local developed metallurgy and the interesting society implied in the burials.

MJost
07-31-2013, 05:16 PM
I see a possibility that late L23-L51-L11-P312 sequence occurred in the Alps perhaps within Remedello and its zone of influence and had nothing to do with the beakers until Mr P312 or his early descendants married into the beaker network c. 2700BC around the Alps/central Europe. Perhaps his lineage was able to usurp the network and take it over. The only groups who could usurp a network like that were groups who firstly became aware of the network through contact with early beaker peoples (who basically stretched along the Med from Iberia to the Alps) also who also had pre-existing metallurgical knowhow. Such groups clearly did exist in and around the Alpine zone.

Based on 67 marker Founders Interclade calculations with M269, L23 has a TRMCA of 4,317 +-1,080 years before present (2.3k BC). (It is surely older but based on the haplotypes included, this is the Maximum Founders age, there was a very low growth or bottle neck situation for a long time prior)

Interclade of L11 shows 4,268 +-1,073 ybp (2.25k BC). There is very small amount of generations between L23 and L11.

I believe that there was well under a millennia of time from the Founder Modal Age of L23 to P312 (570 years difference using Founders Modal Interclades) of 3,746 +- 1,006 ybp (1.7k BC).

And only a half a dozen generations at most between P312 and L21 (110+ years difference) at 3,637 +-991 ybp (1.6k BC). All of these TMRCA ages are the most probable and all the surviving known HT's would best fit in the +-range.

L23 founder must have been very successful with his male off-spring continuing to expand in only twenty or so generations to spawn P312. And P312 in a short time spawned L21. DF27 would be in the same position of being near the same jumping off point Southwestern Germany into Eastern France.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNMUVUTF83LW9HN28/edit?usp=sharing

Some of the more important area is the 'Heuneburg is regarded as one of the most important Celtic settlements and was a vital trading center during the period between 620 and 480 BC.'

"A widely spread Celtic archaeological feature in southern Germany, ranging from eastern France to the western Czech Republic, are the so called “Viereckschanzen” or “Square Enclosures”, dating to the La Tène period 200 to 50 B.C. They systems of earth walls with only one entrance gap and uninterrupted surrounding ditches. Inside these enclosures traces of buildings are known."

L23, could have spawned farther back east into western Czech and Hungary and stayed during the very low growth phase of his early existance but L11 and its subclades under went a rapid demographic expansion (explosion) within a 600+ year period (to 1.6k BC) and with this creation of P312 and its subclades continued into the 600 BC time frame, building the most important Celtic settlements in southern Germany and into the Western Europe and Isles proper as the Gauls as a Gaulish culture developed out of the Celtic cultures over the first millennia BC in the Iron Age and the Roman period (roughly from the 5th century BC to the 3rd century AD) and the bearers of the La Tène culture north of the Alps. By the 4th century BC, they spread over much of what is now France, Switzerland, Southern Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic and back into Romania, Balkans, and Anatolia by virtue of controlling the trade routes along the river systems of the Seine, Rhone, and Danube.

Around 50 BC and later, the Romans didn't quite wipeout the Celtic culture, who did not have a central government or ruler, but they could have and almost did.

MJost

alan
07-31-2013, 05:59 PM
Culturally, Irish, French and Swiss Bell Beakers are more similar to the Iberian Bell Beaker complex than Central European Bell Beaker. Dental morphology of Swiss Bell Beaker clusters much closer to southern Bell Beaker than that of Central Europe. Menk's grouping of Spanish Bell Beaker skulls is closest to that of Southern France, Bohemia and Brunswick. Therefore, I cannot support an earlier non-R1b Bell Beaker presence in Iberia. In fact, there is really no argument against an already established presence of DF27 in the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker due to the distribution of Palmela Points all the way into southern Portugal.

One of the reasons I still keep one foot in the idea that R1b didnt penetrate west of the Alps until developed beaker times is that other than the fact of copper working, the trail is a lot colder west of the Alps. A very good case can be made for something going on relating to Remedello in the Alps and that some sort of network was established there in pre-beaker times. However west of that the evidence is incredibly thin for further moves west other than the fact of copper working. Maybe that is all there is but its wafer thin.

I do agree however that the concept of a number of clades being planted in different areas before 3000BC does hold attractions too although that needs p312 to be pushed back before 3000BC to allow for an arrival of P312* or perhaps more realistically DF27* in Iberia by the inception of the pre-beaker copper age and clades like L51 to be pushed right back into the sort of period of the Remedello network in the Alps, Mount Loreto etc. That of course would still, given the progession of the spread of copper c. 3500BC-3000BC, place L51, L11 and P312 SNPs as occurring in the Alps or adjacent. In fact that sort of model has always needed a push back of the dates of these clades to make sense. Maybe it is true. That however would stil mean that while DF27 could be seen following the maritime trails out of Iberia, presumably U152 remained in the Alps and perhap L21 up the Rhine. Based on variance and the apparent massive drop off of U106 at the Germanic speaking boundaries in both Europe and the isles that U106's presence on the Lower Rhine is a long post-beaker Germanic phenomemon and I think L21 was likely a significant player there before that, being in general a strong clade in maritime northern Europe. Actually L21 is probably the hardest of the P312 clades to work out its story compared to DF27 and U152 but I think the Rhenish-Isles-NW France connections are probably the best bet, almost by elimination.

alan
07-31-2013, 06:05 PM
That L23 date seems younger than ones I have heard before which tend to be around the 3500BC mark.


Based on 67 marker Founders Interclade calculations with M269, L23 has a TRMCA of 4,317 +-1,080 years before present (2.3k BC). (It is surely older but based on the haplotypes included, this is the Maximum Founders age, there was a very low growth or bottle neck situation for a long time prior)

Interclade of L11 shows 4,268 +-1,073 ybp (2.25k BC). There is very small amount of generations between L23 and L11.

I believe that there was well under a millennia of time from the Founder Modal Age of L23 to P312 (570 years difference using Founders Modal Interclades) of 3,746 +- 1,006 ybp (1.7k BC).

And only a half a dozen generations at most between P312 and L21 (110+ years difference) at 3,637 +-991 ybp (1.6k BC). All of these TMRCA ages are the most probable and all the surviving known HT's would best fit in the +-range.

L23 founder must have been very successful with his male off-spring continuing to expand in only twenty or so generations to spawn P312. And P312 in a short time spawned L21. DF27 would be in the same position of being near the same jumping off point Southwestern Germany into Eastern France.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0By9Y3jb2fORNMUVUTF83LW9HN28/edit?usp=sharing

Some of the more important area is the 'Heuneburg is regarded as one of the most important Celtic settlements and was a vital trading center during the period between 620 and 480 BC.'

"A widely spread Celtic archaeological feature in southern Germany, ranging from eastern France to the western Czech Republic, are the so called “Viereckschanzen” or “Square Enclosures”, dating to the La Tène period 200 to 50 B.C. They systems of earth walls with only one entrance gap and uninterrupted surrounding ditches. Inside these enclosures traces of buildings are known."

L23, could have spawned farther back east into western Czech and Hungary and stayed during the very low growth phase of his early existance but L11 and its subclades under went a rapid demographic expansion (explosion) within a 600+ year period (to 1.6k BC) and with this creation of P312 and its subclades continued into the 600 BC time frame, building the most important Celtic settlements in southern Germany and into the Western Europe and Isles proper as the Gauls as a Gaulish culture developed out of the Celtic cultures over the first millennia BC in the Iron Age and the Roman period (roughly from the 5th century BC to the 3rd century AD) and the bearers of the La Tène culture north of the Alps. By the 4th century BC, they spread over much of what is now France, Switzerland, Southern Germany, Austria and the Czech Republic and back into Romania, Balkans, and Anatolia by virtue of controlling the trade routes along the river systems of the Seine, Rhone, and Danube.

Around 50 BC and later, the Romans didn't quite wipeout the Celtic culture, who did not have a central government or ruler, but they could have and almost did.

MJost

TigerMW
07-31-2013, 08:02 PM
Culturally, Irish, French and Swiss Bell Beakers are more similar to the Iberian Bell Beaker complex than Central European Bell Beaker. Dental morphology of Swiss Bell Beaker clusters much closer to southern Bell Beaker than that of Central Europe. Menk's grouping of Spanish Bell Beaker skulls is closest to that of Southern France, Bohemia and Brunswick. Therefore, I cannot support an earlier non-R1b Bell Beaker presence in Iberia. In fact, there is really no argument against an already established presence of DF27 in the earliest Iberian Bell Beaker due to the distribution of Palmela Points all the way into southern Portugal.

I've been combing through Iberian R1b haplotypes* looking for DF27 suspects. I think we'll uncover a lot about DF27 and I think Spain and France will be most important in the unveiling.

I can not make up my mind on DF27
1) having a significant presence first on the Continental core and then coming to green pastures (figure of speech) in Iberia or
2) establishing itself in Iberia and launching from there.

I am more and more intrigued by the whole Desideri "reflux" theory. I think we just have to keep the various regional Beaker groups in mind in discussions and not assume a pervasive, consistent mix of genes.

I was reading about the Palmela Points and at least in the what I've read it was more of late Beaker phenomenon in Iberia, closer to 2000 BC. If so, could this be part of a reflux action? The follow-on discussion could be that the earliest Bell Beakers in Iberia were mixed with a light sprinkling of R1b immigrants, perhaps not even R1b-L11. Meanwhile, to the east, the Corded Ware/Hungarian Beaker groups had the same metallurgical practices. They might have lead the reflux movement, ultimately resulting in Unetice Culture. The Unetice folks traded with Britain-Wessex, Bretagne (tin) and Baltic folks (amber). This could be a nice explanation for P312 and U106 splitting.

That's all just speculation, but what do we know about the timing, origin and expansion of Palmela Point usage?


P.S. * I've found a couple of good R1b-L238 "Norse" signature signatures in Iberian projects to go with an R1b-L165 "Norse" type or two. It could just be convergence....

TigerMW
07-31-2013, 08:22 PM
One of the reasons I still keep one foot in the idea that R1b didnt penetrate west of the Alps until developed beaker times is that other than the fact of copper working, the trail is a lot colder west of the Alps. A very good case can be made for something going on relating to Remedello in the Alps and that some sort of network was established there in pre-beaker times. However west of that the evidence is incredibly thin for further moves west other than the fact of copper working. Maybe that is all there is but its wafer thin...

Sometimes I think I'm the only one who has this perspective or is appreciative of it, but not only would I find it possible that the first incursions of R1b into Western Europe were light, my guess is they probably were very light. I don't hear much support that the initial Bell Beaker expansions were comprehensive, population movements, in contrast to the LBK and Cardial Wares Neolithic advances.

I'm not trying to link to the Yamnaya with this statement but Anthony noted the Yamnaya society made use of scouts and explorers. We know historic period European groups were aggressive explorers that dispersed small colonies, traders, prospectors, miners, military outposts and the like. Rather than being an outstanding new initiative, this could have just been a continuation of their long held Indo-European practices.

The exploring, scouting, colonizing and, finally, the mass settlement process could correlate with R1b subclade distributions. L23xL51 and L51xL11 are lightly scattered in Western and Central Europe. I think there is even some affinity with Portugal as well as the Rhine Valley. However, the same can not be said for L11. L11 did involve some kind of massive male lineage replacement. I don't know if the Beaker expansions can support the depth of the replacement. Either we need follow-on and long enduring amplification of these lineages or we need larger groups of settlers following, which I would think would have to have moved westward over land.

Jean M
07-31-2013, 08:47 PM
Sometimes I think I'm the only one who has this perspective ...

You are not the only one. I've said this several times.

alan
07-31-2013, 09:39 PM
I suppose the ultimate evidence of just how light it is is the whole Mr P323 or Mr L11 concept. If we are even close to the correct dating and consider by 2500BC beaker was pan-European then even the randiest chief and his immediate succeeding generations would have a hard time (no pun intended) producing more than a few thousand male descendants over a couple of centuries. If a number like that is spread around a pan European culture in 2500BC then they would be very thin on the ground indeed.

R.Rocca
08-01-2013, 11:30 AM
@RR

I am not ruling out that alternative. The two models start of identically with some sort of pre-beaker copper age home for R1B around the Alps. The only real difference is west of Alps in southern France and Iberia. It is possible that that R1b got no far west than the Alps before developed beaker times.

I think there is a common error in terms of the way beaker culture is divided up on some maps. NW France and all of the isles were linked in terms of beaker to the Rhine groups. The only difference is that in the north-west lower impact and conservatism meant the single burial model was slightly delayed in being accepted generally. The Irish beaker pots are actually generally not at all like the Iberian ones other than one or two sherds of international types which could be from anywhere. They are much closer to the British and NW European ones around the Rhine and that includes the Ross Island mine pottery according to the monograph appendix on that site. I think there is a false impression of Irish beaker culture as 'Atlantic' simply because they were conservative in terms of burial forms but this conservatism is very different from Iberian and consists of the local pre-beaker practice of token cremations in pits in some areas and a completely new form of megalith called the Wedge Tomb that appears with beakers and has its best parallels in northern France. I think this conservatism is often taken wrongly as some sort of link between these conservative areas when in detail all they share is conservatism.

I think what we see in the isles is a Rhine-linked group judging by beaker type but whose impact gets lesser to the west where single burial takes longer to catch on. However, even this is only a delay. Something very similar to classic beaker single burials actually does catch on in Ireland about 2200BC about 200 years after the first beakers arrive and when beaker was still being used as a domestic ware but food vessels were used instead of beakers in the graves. A bog body of this sort of date in the classic burial pose of this period was found very recently in Ireland. Also Ireland's beaker trading connections in metalwork are almost exclusively with Britain and northern France and occasionally further into northern Europe. Ireland in prehistory generally had a habit of conservatism and also a thing about cremation which goes back to the early Mesolithic and never went away until the Christian era. Cremation tended to prevail even when it was very rare anywhere nearby including in the Mesolithic and the Neolithic. Ireland only tended to fall into line with practices elsewhere when other places took up cremation too. Incidentally the food vessel people were entered into a statistical analysis with the Neolithic people in an Irish study many years ago and they completely split. The Irish food vessel people were round headed and appear to have been exceptionally tall, the tallest in Europe in the period. They were very different cranially from the early beaker groups of southern Europe. Coon reckoned they were similar to some German beaker related group although I wouldnt trust his data very much and clearly Food Vessel people were an outcome of a century or so of beaker elements mixing with locals too.

So, I would be wary of maps that break beaker into zones. I think many zones just responded slightly differently to what was essenttially the same phenomenon and it is far to simplistic to split it just into Atlantic, Rhenish etc.


Anway to change the subject and go back in time further, I found this interesting French article discussing Remedello influence in the western Alps

http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bspf_0249-7638_2005_num_102_2_13112

Seems to add lithics to the influences of Remedello on the Alpine groups. It just makes me want to be able to get my hands on more information about Remedello etc. I am fascinated by that group because of the appearance of a beaker-like type, the early date, the associations with the establishement of a local developed metallurgy and the interesting society implied in the burials.

I guess it's how one reads it, but from what I've read Irish BB pottery is a mix of local types that look like those of NW France and those of the Rhine via Britain. Collective burials far outnumber single burials in Ireland and NW France and two-holed wrist guards are also the norm in Ireland and if I'm not mistaken, the exclusive type in NW France. France is also very difference in Bell Beaker common ware and does not group with the Rhenish types (except for some in Alsace).

My point to all this is that there is enough local variation in all Bell Beaker provinces to doubt if they were of one major haplogroup or another. To me, the provinces were already separating into major subclades of P312, including in Iberia.

GoldenHind
08-01-2013, 07:25 PM
P.S. * I've found a couple of good R1b-L238 "Norse" signature signatures in Iberian projects to go with an R1b-L165 "Norse" type or two. It could just be convergence....

If there turns out to be an L238 presence in Iberia, and I'm not certain there is, I suspect it is more likely due to later input from the Vandals or Visigoths, both of whom probably had at least a partial component with origins in Scandinavia.

GoldenHind
08-01-2013, 07:32 PM
I do agree however that the concept of a number of clades being planted in different areas before 3000BC does hold attractions too although that needs p312 to be pushed back before 3000BC to allow for an arrival of P312* or perhaps more realistically DF27* in Iberia by the inception of the pre-beaker copper age and clades like L51 to be pushed right back into the sort of period of the Remedello network in the Alps, Mount Loreto etc. That of course would still, given the progession of the spread of copper c. 3500BC-3000BC, place L51, L11 and P312 SNPs as occurring in the Alps or adjacent. Germanic phenomemon and I think L21 was likely a significant player there before that, being in general a strong clade in maritime northern Europe.

To date I know of absolutely no evidence of any P312* (by which I mean XDF27 as well as the other major subclades) in Iberia. Some may eventually be found, but if so, they must be extremely rare.

alan
08-01-2013, 08:12 PM
I guess it's how one reads it, but from what I've read Irish BB pottery is a mix of local types that look like those of NW France and those of the Rhine via Britain. Collective burials far outnumber single burials in Ireland and NW France and two-holed wrist guards are also the norm in Ireland and if I'm not mistaken, the exclusive type in NW France. France is also very difference in Bell Beaker common ware and does not group with the Rhenish types (except for some in Alsace).

My point to all this is that there is enough local variation in all Bell Beaker provinces to doubt if they were of one major haplogroup or another. To me, the provinces were already separating into major subclades of P312, including in Iberia.

You might well be right. I think what we have is a myriad of ways beaker integrated rather than large zones of similarity. Ireland and NW France seem connected in some way with the British and Rhenish groups but seem to have been more conservative.

The collective burial thing in Ireland is a myth. The Irish beaker burials fall into two main groups. The first is a single pit cremations with token pot sherds etc. This is basically a continuation of the local pre-beaker burial tradition. However, in the western half of the island and into other upland areas in the east there is a type of megalith called a wedge tomb which appear to date almost perfectly to the period when beakers were in use in Ireland.

The wedge tombs are not any real continuity with existing megalithic traditions though as they are of a completely new form with a completely new west of south-west orientation and appear after a hiatus of many centuries in the building of megaliths by the locals. Most of them are modest is size and actually look like massive cists set on the surface. They tend to be built in rocky areas where that might have actually originated as a practical solution to thin soil and rock bedrock. Very few examples have been excavated that were undististured by later prehistoric reuse, the elements, animals or treasure hunters. However it seems to me from the rare examples where this didnt happen that they only tended to have a couple of burials.

They tend, where they have finds at all, to have beaker pots-including whole ones, wristguards, barbed and tanged arrowheads and copper artefacts. It is not clear how much cremation and how much inhumation was used as they tend to be in acid conditions where bone doesnt survive well as well as the issue of much later prehistoric reuse and modern disturbance. The evidence seems to suggest both forms of burial.

However, overall I think it is still possible that they were originally basically large surface cists (they are usually very low small monuments that now often look semi-subteranian) which took only one or two burials. While they remained slighly open at one end, this tends to be extremely low and it would be difficult to reuse them. They have what would have been a totally crazy design for frequent reuse. The size of many certainly wouldnt permit many unburned bodies - basically they often look like low stone boxes with massive lids.

So, I think it is wrong to think of them as similar to Neolithic megalithic tombs. It might be more appropriate to see them as massive surface cists probably only designed for a small nuclear family at most. I actually think they may well represent an intrusive tradition of massive surface cists with single or nuclear family burials and non-token grave goods. That is a new tradition compared to the native tradition of cremation pits with token pot sherds. Classic Neolithic megalithic building and collective burial had died out for 500 years before the beakers and wedge tombs arrived and were succeeded by a period when henges, grooved ware, timber circles, single pit token cremations were the norm.

This is a very very good new paper on the beginnings and end of Irish Neolithic tomb use
http://www.ria.ie/getmedia/c2657ef2-f1e2-4f4b-a562-f6f6a35d5463/Schulting201106.pdf.aspx

MJost
08-02-2013, 05:48 PM
A calibrated human Y-chromosomal phylogeny based on resequencing
Wei Etal
Oct 2012
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/23/2/388.full

TMRCA of R1b check out the Rho numbers.
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/23/2/388/T1.large.jpg

MJost

Also those maybe interested in these comments
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?377-A-calibrated-human-Y-chromosomal-phylogeny-based-on-resequencing&p=2153&viewfull=1#post2153

TigerMW
08-07-2013, 10:47 PM
Mark, I'm inclined to think R1b-P312's TMRCA is about 4000-5000 ybp. However, this TMRCA and mutation rate studies can get tedious. Do you mind if we take this discussion over to the STR Wars thread where details are welcome?

TigerMW
08-08-2013, 01:34 PM
Mark, I'm inclined to think R1b-P312's TMRCA is about 4000-5000 ybp. However, this TMRCA and mutation rate studies can get tedious. Do you mind if we take this discussion over to the STR Wars thread where details are welcome?

On the other hand if our latest SNP counting methods are right, we may be talking about 6000 ybp or slightly more. This actually fits in a little more nicely with a more easterly origin and would help in providing more explanations for P312 in places like Anatolia or further east among Kipchucks. It also helps line up with Anthony's splitting of people carrying pre-Italo-Celtic versus pre-Germanic dialects.

Myres had P312 all (S116) as being oldest in Turkey.

Of course, the aging doesn't mean an Easterly origin, it just provides more time for that to have occurred reasonably.