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LUIZGSILLOS
08-19-2017, 02:07 PM
Dear colleagues,

My Hablogroup changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. Is this Haplogroup 100% Iberian? The family tradition says that our ancestor passed from Spain to Portugal around 1580.

Thank you.

dp
08-19-2017, 04:19 PM
It is downstream of R1b-P312>DF27. In today's populations DF27 has the highest geographic distribution in Iberia. Some members think it is related to the Franco-Cantabrian refugium, I suspect based on variance / diversity of DF27 in Europe.
I suspect that you have recently had the M343 backbone test at FTDNA?
check out: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?827-Where-did-DF27-originate-and-when-and-how-did-it-expand
Also check out:
http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=31
at the bottom of the screen are country flags for donors that provided this information on their MDK(Y)Ancestor.
dp :-)

stevesluder
08-31-2017, 02:11 PM
After doing further Y-DNA testing, my haplogroup was also changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. While my exact line and surname is still unknown, I have been able to determine that my biological paternal line likely comes out of central Mexico. This could be consistent with an Iberian peninsula origin. However, my best Y-DNA match on FTDNA is a 37 marker match (genetic distance of 4) out of Ireland with the Bowes surname. I have relatively few Y-DNA matches with Iberian origins. Perhaps 95% of my Y-DNA matches come from the British Isles. I know this could all be explained by migration patterns, but it is still very frustrating when you are trying to nail down something definite and solve the mystery of your paternal origins.

MacUalraig
08-31-2017, 03:09 PM
After doing further Y-DNA testing, my haplogroup was also changed from R-M269 to R-ZZ12_1. While my exact line and surname is still unknown, I have been able to determine that my biological paternal line likely comes out of central Mexico. This could be consistent with an Iberian peninsula origin. However, my best Y-DNA match on FTDNA is a 37 marker match (genetic distance of 4) out of Ireland with the Bowes surname. I have relatively few Y-DNA matches with Iberian origins. Perhaps 95% of my Y-DNA matches come from the British Isles. I know this could all be explained by migration patterns, but it is still very frustrating when you are trying to nail down something definite and solve the mystery of your paternal origins.

Has that person you mentioned confirmed the match with an equivalent SNP test? Otherwise +4/37 is pretty worthless imho.

stevesluder
09-02-2017, 02:07 AM
That one match is my only 37 marker match. I have no matches at 67 markers, but have done the SNP pack related to P312. That was when my haplogroup changed to ZZ12_1. I have 48, 25 marker matches with a genetic distance of 0. Again, every one of them are from the British Isles with English surnames. None of my matches on FTDNA are ZZ12_1 and I have only come across a few matches with this haplogroup in the past two years in other DNA websites.

swid
09-05-2017, 08:25 PM
Have you joined the R-DF27 project?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/r1b-df27/about/background

The admin of that project is very helpful (and also posts here, too); he should be able to provide some guidance about your Y-lineage.

Magovalle
02-05-2018, 09:42 PM
Hi there, friend:
.
My case is quite similar than yours. My parent haplogroup was R-M269 and now reads R-ZZ12_1 downstream DF27 (that means 4.000 years back in time). In my particular case is linked to Scotland due to I have been tested positive under a valid recurrent mutation that reads ZS4583 (say about 1.000 years back in time) linked to Scottish clans still under investigation after my BIG Y results as negative for L513 what's strange. Checking the information of my matches under ZZ12_1 you can find them in: Acores, Northern area of Portugal, Basque country, french Bretagne, Normandie, South West of Germany, Switzerland, Poland, some areas in Italy and above all in Welsh and the Highlands in Scotland among other locations. That means ZZ12_1 it's widespread throughout the Western area of Europe in a lower scale than DF27. We are clearly celts. There are other snps that are specifically downstream DF27 that could be considered more iberians than ours. Anyway that's only my personal opinion as I am not an expert and on the other hand I am spanish and happy to be under this gallo-iberian haplogroup (DF27)

Jesús Dapena
03-17-2018, 05:48 AM
Magovalle:

I am from Spain too. FTDNA's Big Y test said that I am P312+ and (like you) also ZS4583+. They did not test anything in between those two SNPs. This would normally imply that I am also positive for everything in between those two SNPs: P312 > Z290 > L21 > DF13 > L513 > S5668 > A7 > S5979 > S5982 > ZS4581 > ZS4584 > ZS4583. However, making such an assumption made me very nervous. Those are many, many SNPs between P312 and ZS4583, and I wondered if it might be possible for a crazy mutation to occur at the ZS4583 site, and make it SEEM like I am ZS4583+ when I am not. In other words, I could be in reality on a branch of the haplotree that is nowhere near the ZS4583 SNP, but my ZS4583 site could have mutated from the "ancestral value" (let's say that this was "T") to the value that the ZS4583 haplogroup has at the ZS4583 site (for instance, "C"). So my ZS4583 could have the same value ("C") as in ZS4583+ people, but it would be due to an INDEPENDENT MUTATION AT THE SAME SITE. In such case, I would come up as positive for ZS4583, but I should not really be classified as being in haplogroup ZS4583. (That was not a very good explanation, but I hope you understood it!)

Also, the above sequence put me on a line that one would expect more for a British Isles person than for a Spaniard, although it would not be impossible. (In fact, it would be very interesting if it were true!) I felt that I should not simply "believe" that I am truly ZS4583+ and also positive for all the SNPs between P312 and ZS4583 based on that Big Y test, given the huge gap between P312 and ZS4583. Therefore, earlier today I ordered the "R1b - S5982&L193" SNP Pack from FTDNA. This will test all those intermediate SNPs between P312 and ZS4583, as well as a few more.

After ordering that test, I stumbled upon this posting of yours, which confirms that my suspicion can sometimes turn out to be true: In your case, it did, since you tested positive for ZS4583 but negative for L513, which means that your ZS4583+ test was a "false positive". I suspect that the same thing will happen to me when I get the results of this last test. It's too bad, because having the British Isles pattern would have been very interesting!

Ravai
03-17-2018, 07:19 AM
Hello Jesús & Magovalle,

What you are describing is known as recurrent mutation. That is, the same SNP is repeated in different branches of a main haplogroup.

Regards

David

Jesús Dapena
03-17-2018, 03:21 PM
Ravai:

Aha! Excellent, I had never heard the term "recurrent mutation" before! I think this is an important cautionary tale when dealing with genetic genealogy ...

Jesús

rms2
03-17-2018, 03:32 PM
Ravai:

Aha! Excellent, I had never heard the term "recurrent mutation" before! I think this is an important cautionary tale when dealing with genetic genealogy ...

Jesús

That issue is fairly easily dealt with, however, by looking at the pedigree of the SNP's leading up to the recurrent one. If a man is derived for all the SNP's characterizing R1b-DF27, then, for him, the recurrent mutation is within DF27.

razyn
03-17-2018, 06:01 PM
Just in case this has gone below the radar, the recurrent SNP (downstream of both DF27 and ZZ12) is ZS4583.

The problem with ZZ12 (that makes YFull and some other hidebound navel-gazers omit it from their particular Y tree) is that it's on a palindrome; so it can disappear, usually only half of it (but that's the half that has been easiest to read, in others) because of a subsequent RecLOH event. This does not constitute "instability" as such, but it messes with their algorithms something fierce.

There may be, at present, members of some subclade a couple thousand years younger than ZZ12, in whom ZZ12 can't be detected. But in their 4th millennium BC patrilineal ancestor, at that time, it could be. It just went away, more recently; this didn't erase the rest of their family tree, or kill anybody.

Unless I'm misinformed, I believe all of the "problematic" ZZ SNPs named by Alex Williamson (YTree dot net) are on palindromes. So, by the way, are DYS385a-b and some other popular STR loci, that are subject to RecLOH events.

Jesús Dapena
03-18-2018, 03:22 PM
rms2: I am not sure that I understand what you are saying with "for him, the recurrent mutation is within DF27". I assume that what you mean is that I would still be DF27 from a haplogroup standpoint, even though I do have the ZS4583 mutation --which makes it LOOK AS IF I am in the L21 > > L513 > > etc. haplotree branch. I have now ordered the "R1b - S5982&L193" SNP Pack from FTDNA to check that I am NOT L21 > > L513 > > etc. After this is confirmed negative (as I expect it will), then I will order an appropriate SNP Pack that will check if I am (as I expect) DF27 >> etc.

Magovalle
03-21-2018, 04:34 PM
Hi there, Jesus:
.
I allready sent to u a post under Iberian Peninsula project that might explain everything. Just for ur guidance it happened to me the same when some day after taking my BIG Y dna test FTDNA confirmed that my terminal haplogroup was ZS4583. The next day it was changed again to ZZ12_1 once the M343 n M269 backbone pack results were included in my .VCF file. It´s just a recurrent mutation and due to I tested negative for the parent clades starting with L21 no chance to be downstream there. We will be in touch from now on if u like now that we share the same haplogroup under block ZZ12_1. Take care
.
Martin

Magovalle
03-21-2018, 04:36 PM
Thks David. Everything is clear now. Take care
.
Martin

Magovalle
03-21-2018, 04:48 PM
Hi there, guy:
.
Do u mean that recurrent mutations never should be disregarded even though you tested negative for the parent clades? I mean you have got several recurrent mutations that have ntg to do with the parent clades as no conexion at all. For instance you have got one under I1 haplogroup and another one under L21 but you are downstream DF27. Both of them have to be taken into account as might explain your ancestral origin? Is it possible that the same subclade could be under two different haplogroups? Sry if this is a stupid question
.
Martin

palamede
03-28-2018, 12:21 PM
Hi there, guy:
Is it possible that the same subclade could be under two different haplogroups? Sry if this is a stupid question
.Martin

Certainly not. A recurrent mutation could be found in different subclades and each subclade has its own phylogenetic lineage upstairs in the haplogroup containing the subclade.

Magovalle
03-31-2018, 01:26 PM
Hi there, palamede:
.
Thks a lot for ur comment and clarification on the issue. Take care