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Kathlingram
08-19-2017, 03:48 PM
Haydn Eryl Hughes grandson of John Pride Griffiths Gatwen, Tudweiliog, Pwllheli Wales 4th cousin now at AncestryDNA.. Cannot figure it out..
They have shared matches with other Welsh matches of mine: Annwen Hughes,dyfthegog,anelog all also 4th cousins.. one or two actually come up higher

To the best of my knowledge my many Wales ancestors are in DE and PA Welsh Tracts by 1710

Which of course is why I tested Living_DNA..
UGH.. still cannot figure it out..

My oldest Welsh ancestors ( many of them) are in Delaware and Pennsylvania Welsh Tracts before or at least in 1710..

Kathlingram
08-23-2017, 03:41 PM
So several days later I have two more Wales matches.. all of them from Wales These do not match Anwen Hughes and dyfthegog but match another match I have had for a long time from 23andme ( now also at Ancestry)..None of these people have yet put anything on Gedmatch..BUT their trees coincide.. Problem is their mutual ancestor ( Evan Jones/ Mary Roberts) is c. 1818 and my only unplaced ancestor is Moses Jones who appears married to Katherine McNatt in Delaware in 1741..
Am sure he did not spring up out of the ground so I need to go further back on this line and perhaps can figure something..
My other cousins on that line however do NOT come up with huge Wales match..Just my Sister and myself

Kathlingram
09-13-2017, 09:15 PM
Three weeks ago I posted here what was really a "help me" query about my extensive Wales ancestry.. which Living_DNA indicates is extensive

Today I posted this elsewhere.." At AncestryDNA My sister and I both have a lot of 4th ( occasionally 3rd) cousins..most of whom still live in Wales..

I have looked at ALL 29 of those I have "Shared matches" at Ancestry and NO ONE has Wales as a Genetic Community.. Carol Bodofsky (Sister) and I have two.. One is Welsh Midlands that overlaps this one at Bangor I think..

Of course we are MORE Irish than Welsh but it seems to be my father's father whose ancestry and name is sort of unknown to us must be the person who is at least 1/2 Welsh ( we had thought it was his Norway Grandfather.. Early DNA looked like that was so but not with 5 million testers at AncestryDNA and 2+ Million at 23andme..

I am now asking my closest Wales matches if THEY also have Wales as Genetic Communities.. that may tell us something

There are only 3 families in PennsGrove/Carneys Point, the small town my 15 years old grandmother lived in when she had my father..Different names have sprung up from time to time between 1920-1930 that have Wales as a birth place..

These names: Roberts, Griffith, Webber ( and always Jones and David) I also have the new cousin from Wales from 23andme.. several from there also.. and also at Family Tree DNA..Most are from Caernarvonshire
This is why I tested at Living_DNA.. who indicate me at 30+%
" I am 68% Ireland and 17% Great Britain at Ancestry and 8% Scandinavian 5 % Europe West.. 23andme says 87.7% Biritsh/Irish and a little bit German( 2.8) % and 6.7 % Broadly Euro.. FTDNA Does meander all over the place but essentially I think I could be somewhere around the 20-30% Living_DNA Says"

Hopefully these two images will post 18723 and 18724

Any thoughts? I have no first cousins that have popped up anywhwre unclaimed..

Robert1
09-14-2017, 12:57 AM
Hello, Kathlingram, I'm not sure I'm following you so I'll try to repeat back as I think. Most of your Welsh ancestors cannot be tracked back beyond colonial America, in Delaware and the Welsh Tract, PA? And you do have matches you believe lead back to Welsh emigrants or even Wales but you aren't able to use a chromosome browser to see what segments you share with some, at least the Ancestry.com matches? But some matches are at 23&Me and FTDNA (which do have chromosome browsers) - if so what chromosome and segments do you match? And how large are the segments at 23&Me and FTDNA? And total cMs with good matches at Ancestry? Sadly Living DNA isn't much help until they add matching tools or you could try uploading your LDNA data to Genesis GEDmatch but it's such a small database I'd save it for last.

And your paternal grandfather (unknown surname) may lead back to Wales?

I would keep asking your Ancestry.com (and 23&Me) Welsh matches very sweetly to upload their raw data to GEDmatch. Sometimes they're afraid to attempt something like this but I've had success walking them through the whole process, you never know - some may do it. They must understand this will benefit them in all areas of matching, not just with you. Anyway, if you can get some serious Welsh matches down to some particular chromosome segments on GEDmatch you could then pay $5 or so for a month to use the Tier 1 segment matcher to find more matches to that segment and hopefully some important new matches who can provide new information.

If autosomal DNA conclusively pointed to your paternal grandfather you might think of a Y-DNA test if you have a living male descendant available but I wouldn't do that unless I was sure he's your main Wales connection. Good luck with your searches!

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-14-2017, 06:19 AM
Hi I'm sorry I have only just seen your thread. I'm in the UK with a lot of Welsh ancestry. If I'm reading your thread correctly you haven't done FTDNA Family Finder. I think this would be worth considering because it's relatively inexpensive and you would have access to more testers results.
I have found a few with Family Finder but also others with an apparent Welsh connection where it has so far proved impossible to tie up the paper trail with surnames like "Jones". There was a lot of movement around and into Wales during the Industrial Revolution period.. I think we also have to be cautious with terms like "4th cousin" because I think in some cases the ancestral connection could be earlier than this suggests and tracing ancestry even in the UK before around 1700 is very difficult, many people hit a block around this point it's not long after the English Civil War (which involved Wales), records not kept or destroyed.
There is an interesting table in the link below. Good luck with your search. John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi68ayRgaTWAhWPZVAKHUvxB-UQFgg_MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.kittycooper.com%2F2016%2F08% 2Fhow-to-tell-the-relationship-from-the-shared-dna%2F&usg=AFQjCNGUDCdAF1r6dhK0Ci5jwQ8FkLgDQA

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 12:09 PM
Hello, Kathlingram, I'm not sure I'm following you so I'll try to repeat back as I think. Most of your Welsh ancestors cannot be tracked back beyond colonial America, in Delaware and the Welsh Tract, PA? And you do have matches you believe lead back to Welsh emigrants or even Wales but you aren't able to use a chromosome browser to see what segments you share with some, at least the Ancestry.com matches? But some matches are at 23&Me and FTDNA (which do have chromosome browsers) - if so what chromosome and segments do you match? And how large are the segments at 23&Me and FTDNA? And total cMs with good matches at Ancestry? Sadly Living DNA isn't much help until they add matching tools or you could try uploading your LDNA data to Genesis GEDmatch but it's such a small database I'd save it for last.

And your paternal grandfather (unknown surname) may lead back to Wales?

I would keep asking your Ancestry.com (and 23&Me) Welsh matches very sweetly to upload their raw data to GEDmatch. Sometimes they're afraid to attempt something like this but I've had success walking them through the whole process, you never know - some may do it. They must understand this will benefit them in all areas of matching, not just with you. Anyway, if you can get some serious Welsh matches down to some particular chromosome segments on GEDmatch you could then pay $5 or so for a month to use the Tier 1 segment matcher to find more matches to that segment and hopefully some important new matches who can provide new information.

If autosomal DNA conclusively pointed to your paternal grandfather you might think of a Y-DNA test if you have a living male descendant available but I wouldn't do that unless I was sure he's your main Wales connection. Good luck with your searches!

Robert.. I am a surname Admin and Co-Admin for 5 groups at Family Tree DNA so yes I have done this.. One of the closest matches at 23andme who is not at AncestryDNA has chosen not to share his genome BUT at 23andme I can see that he does share an ancestor with two people.. and one of those shares with my newer cousin match named Griffith Jones who has shared everything with me..

I am aware of the segments that could point to a more distant match and that WAS the hypothesis I was following until about 3 weeks ago..
The matches keep rolling in and they specifically point to an area in Caernarvonshire..Pwlleli and also Llanddeiniolen Caernarvonshire .. One close match who HAS tested at GEDMATCH said his great grandmother comes from just below there" Ann..born Barmouth, married Evan Evans of Welshpool, which is Mid Wales, but on the same train line, so she was likely in service" His quotes..
Every one of my matches do match someone else..also at a 4th cousin size.. at least two are 3rd cousin size.. most go back to Caernarvon area which is NOT where my Welsh Tract relatives are from
Also I try to get them into FTDNA or GEDmatch when I can..
Thanks for helping..

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 12:13 PM
Hello, Kathlingram, I'm not sure I'm following you so I'll try to repeat back as I think. Most of your Welsh ancestors cannot be tracked back beyond colonial America, in Delaware and the Welsh Tract, PA? And you do have matches you believe lead back to Welsh emigrants or even Wales but you aren't able to use a chromosome browser to see what segments you share with some, at least the Ancestry.com matches? But some matches are at 23&Me and FTDNA (which do have chromosome browsers) - if so what chromosome and segments do you match? And how large are the segments at 23&Me and FTDNA? And total cMs with good matches at Ancestry? Sadly Living DNA isn't much help until they add matching tools or you could try uploading your LDNA data to Genesis GEDmatch but it's such a small database I'd save it for last.

And your paternal grandfather (unknown surname) may lead back to Wales?

I would keep asking your Ancestry.com (and 23&Me) Welsh matches very sweetly to upload their raw data to GEDmatch. Sometimes they're afraid to attempt something like this but I've had success walking them through the whole process, you never know - some may do it. They must understand this will benefit them in all areas of matching, not just with you. Anyway, if you can get some serious Welsh matches down to some particular chromosome segments on GEDmatch you could then pay $5 or so for a month to use the Tier 1 segment matcher to find more matches to that segment and hopefully some important new matches who can provide new information.

If autosomal DNA conclusively pointed to your paternal grandfather you might think of a Y-DNA test if you have a living male descendant available but I wouldn't do that unless I was sure he's your main Wales connection. Good luck with your searches!

I have no male siblings only Sister and myself and Dad was an only child.. presumably born to his mother and her husband who she married after his death.. he was a Norwegian Sailor.. I get NO Norway matches that are close and I should..FTDNA has an extensive Norway group which I belong to.. So NO YDNA

I have had several of the surname groups at FTDNA prior to 2012 which was when FTDNA first did Family Finder.. 2006 was the first one I had
I was a BETA tester at 23andme in 2009 and a Beta upload at GEDMatch via John Olson about 2012

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 12:26 PM
Hi I'm sorry I have only just seen your thread. I'm in the UK with a lot of Welsh ancestry. If I'm reading your thread correctly you haven't done FTDNA Family Finder. I think this would be worth considering because it's relatively inexpensive and you would have access to more testers results.
I have found a few with Family Finder but also others with an apparent Welsh connection where it has so far proved impossible to tie up the paper trail with surnames like "Jones". There was a lot of movement around and into Wales during the Industrial Revolution period.. I think we also have to be cautious with terms like "4th cousin" because I think in some cases the ancestral connection could be earlier than this suggests and tracing ancestry even in the UK before around 1700 is very difficult, many people hit a block around this point it's not long after the English Civil War (which involved Wales), records not kept or destroyed.
There is an interesting table in the link below. Good luck with your search. John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi68ayRgaTWAhWPZVAKHUvxB-UQFgg_MAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fblog.kittycooper.com%2F2016%2F08% 2Fhow-to-tell-the-relationship-from-the-shared-dna%2F&usg=AFQjCNGUDCdAF1r6dhK0Ci5jwQ8FkLgDQA

John.. I absolutely agree about the early Welsh ancestors and they surely are a part of this.. I had mostly Welsh ancestors to my father' mother's Carrow line ( my oldest US Line) around 1730-1770.. but they do not seem to come from Carnarvonshire which is where these big matches come from..
One definite line is Owen David who came from Maentwrog, Merionethshire, , Wales.. that is another part of Wales is it not? He is my 8th great grandfather and came by 1700.. he married a Mary Rees whose ancestors were from here: Manavon, Montgomeryshire, Wales
They all settled in Delaware or Pennsylvania Welsh Tract and held land there c. 1710 ( Land grants were given to them via William Penn)

I have a Moses Jones who COULD come into US about 1725 or so.. he married about 1740 and his wife ( McNatt not Welsh) inherited property so I suspect he had some money
he is the closest in time to me and I feel that he could not account for 150 Caernarvonshire 3-4-5th cousin matches

Thanks for the assistance

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 12:36 PM
What I think is.. that my "older" Wales ancestors as well as what looks like ones that are closer in time and track to specific ancestors of cousin matches DO come into my Ancestral make up..
My father's mother had a bit of Welsh ancestry but her maternal line was 100% Irish so tah MAX Dad could have been, I feel is 60% Welsh.. I COULD be 30% but Living_DNA as well as AncestryDNA call it "North Wales"
And I am heavily Irish.. more than 30+ % Several great grandparents on both sides born in Ireland c. 1860-1880..
I DO have more Irish than L-D indicates but that shoudl resolve itself. BUT I do also have a Swedish 3rd Great grandfather and his wife.. he was born in Gotaborg Sweden and four 4th-5th great Grandparents who were Palatinates from Germany and Switzerland and Norway

Is North Wales pretty conclusively Caernarvonshire?
Again thanks

J1 DYS388=13
09-14-2017, 12:40 PM
Carnarvonshire and Merionethshire were adjacent to each other in north Wales. HTH.

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 06:14 PM
Carnarvonshire and Merionethshire were adjacent to each other in north Wales. HTH.

Duh :P Thanks.. so not to rule out Owen David and John Rees

Robert1
09-14-2017, 06:55 PM
Ah good, Kathlingram. I see you are very much on top of this! I wasn't sure yesterday at what level you were and felt bad you hadn't had a reply after three posts. Our writing styles are different so that's why I parroted back what you wrote trying to get it clear in my head. And that's ok, at least it bumped up your thread to make it more visible! I hope you are eventually able to clear through the Welsh tanglewood and find where your people come from and when!

I wish Living DNA and the PoBI Project had sampled central Wales and the Welsh border better. We've seen other people who have confusing Welsh results from LDNA and others who were dead on, it just depends on how closely you match up to the PoBI sampling. Living DNA must address that - much like they are moving to update their current Ireland and Germany sampling (PoBI ignored Southern and Middle Ireland and all of NW Europe, even land just 20 miles across the Dover Strait).

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 07:04 PM
Ah good, Kathlingram. I see you are very much on top of this! I wasn't sure yesterday at what level you were and felt bad you hadn't had a reply after three posts. Our writing styles are different so that's why I parroted back what you wrote trying to get it clear in my head. And that's ok, at least it bumped up your thread to make it more visible! I hope you are eventually able to clear through the Welsh tanglewood and find where your people come from and when!

I wish Living DNA and the PoBI Project had sampled central Wales and the Welsh border better. We've seen other people who have confusing Welsh results from LDNA and others who were dead on, it just depends on how closely you match up to the PoBI sampling. Living DNA must address that - much like they are moving to update their current Ireland and Germany sampling (PoBI ignored Southern and Middle Ireland and all of NW Europe, even land just 20 miles across the Dover Strait).

Robert
I am on top of SOME of it and surely not all of it.. Having a possible close ancestor from Wales is a very new thing and I NEED input on how that might or might not work
YES ..Had no clue about this:"Carnarvonshire and Merionethshire were adjacent to each other" and my David Rees /Rees/Jones group who intermarried a lot can surely be some of my Welsh..
Just not sure about 3rd and 4th cousins matches.. can they all go back that far? Perhaps.. They seem to be inherited randomly.. SOME people match each other and me and SOME do not.. Some experts say "Sure it can be old DNA" but I'm not sure if it can be in this quantity

And yes I do "rattle on" trying to make my point.. Thanks ever so..

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 07:10 PM
Ah good, Kathlingram. I see you are very much on top of this! I wasn't sure yesterday at what level you were and felt bad you hadn't had a reply after three posts. Our writing styles are different so that's why I parroted back what you wrote trying to get it clear in my head. And that's ok, at least it bumped up your thread to make it more visible! I hope you are eventually able to clear through the Welsh tanglewood and find where your people come from and when!

I wish Living DNA and the PoBI Project had sampled central Wales and the Welsh border better. We've seen other people who have confusing Welsh results from LDNA and others who were dead on, it just depends on how closely you match up to the PoBI sampling. Living DNA must address that - much like they are moving to update their current Ireland and Germany sampling (PoBI ignored Southern and Middle Ireland and all of NW Europe, even land just 20 miles across the Dover Strait).

Robert.. What you said about PoBI's sampling and how "one size does not fit all" was VERY IMPORTANT!! It needs to be said and understood more.. Excellent..

Robert1
09-14-2017, 07:22 PM
... Is North Wales pretty conclusively Caernarvonshire? ...

I just pulled up the PoBI sampling map and it was Anglesey that was very heavily sampled in the north. Caernarvonshire a little less heavily but it looks adequate. Sampling seems to just kiss Merionethshire which I think was J1 DYS388=13's point - the PoBI sampling. To the east, areas around Flint and Denbigh were lightly sampled, much more should have been done immediately east and southeast of there! Living DNA's designation of "North Wales" should match up with this PoBI sampling.

J1 DYS388=13
09-14-2017, 07:40 PM
I just pulled up the PoBI sampling map and it was Anglesey that was very heavily sampled in the north. Caernarvonshire a little less heavily but it looks adequate. Sampling seems to just kiss Merionethshire which I think was J1 DYS388=13's point - the PoBI sampling. To the east, areas around Flint and Denbigh were lightly sampled, much more should have been done immediately east and southeast of there! Living DNA's designation of "North Wales" should match up with this PoBI sampling.

I'm sure you are correct. The northeast (now called Clwyd) has too many incomers from England. Anglesey, Caernarvonshire, and Merionethshire are now one county, Gwynedd, and it has the highest percentage of Welsh speakers in Wales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

Kathlingram
09-14-2017, 07:58 PM
I'm sure you are correct. The northeast (now called Clwyd) has too many incomers from England. Anglesey, Caernarvonshire, and Merionethshire are now one county, Gwynedd, and it has the highest percentage of Welsh speakers in Wales. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preserved_counties_of_Wales

All of that is very good to know.. not so many of my Wales cousins have mentioned that except for iGwynedd which I did not know was Merionethshire.Thank you

Robert1
09-14-2017, 09:07 PM
Ah we're all on the same page now. Now you, Living DNA - get to work! ;)

AJL
09-15-2017, 01:01 PM
Welsh connections may be more distant than stated, see for example these threads:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7905-Welsh-specific-genetic-drift

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6827-Are-Welsh-people-a-restricted-gene-pool-autosomally

avalon
09-15-2017, 01:26 PM
Hi Kathlingram,

I think it is amazing that your LIvingDNA results give you a strong connection to North Wales, given how long your ancestors have been in North America. We have seen other North Americans getting high UK % results with LivingDNA, which is quite incredible.

A lot of the names and places you mention seem to back this up too. Roberts is a surname strongly associated with North Wales and the area around Maentwrog is one I know quite well. It's basically on the border between Merionethshire and Caernarfonshire.

Here's a map of the historical "shires" of Wales but to confuse matters you also have the Medieval Welsh names and also modern preserved counties and they are all slightly different.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Wales_Historical_Counties.png/600px-Wales_Historical_Counties.png

Kathlingram
09-15-2017, 02:42 PM
Hi Kathlingram,

I think it is amazing that your LIvingDNA results give you a strong connection to North Wales, given how long your ancestors have been in North America. We have seen other North Americans getting high UK % results with LivingDNA, which is quite incredible.

A lot of the names and places you mention seem to back this up too. Roberts is a surname strongly associated with North Wales and the area around Maentwrog is one I know quite well. It's basically on the border between Merionethshire and Caernarfonshire.

Here's a map of the historical "shires" of Wales but to confuse matters you also have the Medieval Welsh names and also modern preserved counties and they are all slightly different.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/06/Wales_Historical_Counties.png/600px-Wales_Historical_Counties.png

Avalon Thanks for that.. I am starting to believe there is a closer connection in my father's father.. Do you know if the "other North Americans getting high UK % results with LivingDNA" got back as far as my Delaware Welsh tract folks? The "Welsh Tract" lent itself to cousin marriages and Delaware's multi geniture inheritance laws helped that continue.. entire families lived on the ancestral land until sometime after 1800..farmers being "tied to land"

Kathlingram
09-15-2017, 03:00 PM
Very excited with everyone's input here..:cheer2:

Kathlingram
09-15-2017, 11:01 PM
Welsh connections may be more distant than stated, see for example these threads:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7905-Welsh-specific-genetic-drift

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6827-Are-Welsh-people-a-restricted-gene-pool-autosomally

For me I do have to rule out the more distant matches .. I have a decent amount of cousin matches on that line ( Paternal Carrow ) and no one else has large Wales matches on AncestryDNA.. few have tested elsewhere.. and they should.not just my sister and myself..( and my children of course) It is something specific to our paternal line that no one else shares..

I suppose it could be a relative who is my grandfather.. cousin or so they stay larger but none of the cousins seem to share them..

avalon
09-16-2017, 11:00 AM
Avalon Thanks for that.. I am starting to believe there is a closer connection in my father's father.. Do you know if the "other North Americans getting high UK % results with LivingDNA" got back as far as my Delaware Welsh tract folks? The "Welsh Tract" lent itself to cousin marriages and Delaware's multi geniture inheritance laws helped that continue.. entire families lived on the ancestral land until sometime after 1800..farmers being "tied to land"

I don't know too much about the "Welsh Tract". Does it have any connection to the Welsh Quakers who emigrated to America? I am aware that there is an association with Welsh Quakers and Merionethsire, particularly around Dolgellau and Bala so this would be an obvious historical link between North Wales and the USA.

I don't know about the ancestry of other North Americans but there was one, I think maybe ADW1981, who got North Wales% from LivingDNA. I can't think of any others but there have been a few who did score high UK %, not necessarily with Wales though, and whose ancestors have been in the US for a long time.

Kathlingram
09-16-2017, 12:42 PM
I don't know too much about the "Welsh Tract". Does it have any connection to the Welsh Quakers who emigrated to America? I am aware that there is an association with Welsh Quakers and Merionethsire, particularly around Dolgellau and Bala so this would be an obvious historical link between North Wales and the USA.

I don't know about the ancestry of other North Americans but there was one, I think maybe ADW1981, who got North Wales% from LivingDNA. I can't think of any others but there have been a few who did score high UK %, not necessarily with Wales though, and whose ancestors have been in the US for a long time.

Well it does depend on how many ancestors are in US a long time.. My Welsh were and my Irish were not.. Both groups apparently experienced considerable cousin matches via physical and cultural isolation.. My Donegal great grandmother seems to be my only ancestor from there but AncestryDNA says this about my Irish in Donegal East "Our confidence that you belong is 60%." of course their confidence has to do with how much DNA from that area my matches have but Genetic Drift is maybe likely..in addition to being hemmed in by Ocean, Mountains and border to North Ireland, it was a Gaelic speaking area

Welsh Tract :"The Welsh tract is a 40,000-acre area west of Philadelphia that was heavily settled by Welsh Quakers." and "The area included what is now Montgomery, Chester, and Delaware counties in Pennsylvania; part of Cecil County, Md.; and Pencader Hundred in New Castle County, Del"
My own relatives mostly were settled in Duck creek Delaware which I think was Baptist but they came from Pencader Hundred.. this Will in 1739 shows my 7th great grandmother Ruth Jones Wilds admin of her husband Joshua, her Brother in law Nathaniel Wilds and her Sister in Law Ester Lewis also a widow..1877318773

She then moved into Duck Creek Kent County with son Nathaniel Wilds who also married someone from Wales and it went on several generations..
My 8th Great GF Owen Jones 1682 Maentwrog, Merionethshire,Wales married a Mary Rees whose grandfather William Walter Rees was born Manavon, Montgomeryshire, Wales and died in Delaware in 1750s

I just find it very hard to wrap my head around how my 5-6-7th great grandparents who were mostly born to Welsh settlers or came as infants could give me upwards of 150 3-4-5th cousin matches who still live in Wales..
although actually the 30+ that AncestryDNA identifies as being part of that geographic Community are IN Wales.. other more distant relatives are in US

Robert1
09-16-2017, 03:44 PM
Avalon Thanks for that.. I am starting to believe there is a closer connection in my father's father.. Do you know if the "other North Americans getting high UK % results with LivingDNA" got back as far as my Delaware Welsh tract folks? The "Welsh Tract" lent itself to cousin marriages and Delaware's multi geniture inheritance laws helped that continue.. entire families lived on the ancestral land until sometime after 1800..farmers being "tied to land"

I fit the criteria of North Americans with long colonial American roots still getting a very high percent UK Living DNA results AND have Welsh ancestors. Living DNA reports me as 98.7% UK! And 1.3% Scandinavian. They also report 2.9% North Wales and 9% South Wales for a total of about 12% Wales. I am still in the process of sorting out my Welsh ancestors but it appears Living DNA's total Wales estimate is accurate as hashing out my family tree in Excel gives me a reasonably close 16% total for Wales.

I have a James line leading back to 1690 • Riddillyn, Pembrokeshire, South Wales who settled in Buck's County, Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also Jones/Williams/Powell 1827 • Rumney, Cardiff, Glamorgan/Monmouthshire, South Wales who settled in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania.

I have some Edwards around 1720 from Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, North Wales coming to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania. And some people coming from Anglesey, North Wales about the same time to Buck's County, Pennsylvania.

Kathlingram
09-16-2017, 05:34 PM
I fit the criteria of North Americans with long colonial American roots still getting a very high percent UK Living DNA results AND have Welsh ancestors. Living DNA reports me as 98.7% UK! And 1.3% Scandinavian. They also report 2.9% North Wales and 9% South Wales for a total of about 12% Wales. I am still in the process of sorting out my Welsh ancestors but it appears Living DNA's total Wales estimate is accurate as hashing out my family tree in Excel gives me a reasonably close 16% total for Wales.

I have a James line leading back to 1690 • Riddillyn, Pembrokeshire, South Wales who settled in Buck's County, Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also Jones/Williams/Powell 1827 • Rumney, Cardiff, Glamorgan/Monmouthshire, South Wales who settled in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania.

I have some Edwards around 1720 from Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, North Wales coming to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania. And some people coming from Anglesey, North Wales about the same time to Buck's County, Pennsylvania.

Wow thanks Robert.. Have you tested autosomal anywhere else to see if there are a lot of cousins? Most of my 4th cousin matches seem to be an accumulations of smallish segments.. is that in line do you think with 7-8th cousin matches? Here is one of them and myself at Gedmatch

Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
#5 36,720,307- 52,211,656 8.2 cM 2,019
#5 82,218,715- 98,607,684 12.9 cM 2,740
# 18 58,695,331- 67,287,171 13.5 cM 2,392

Kathlingram
09-16-2017, 06:15 PM
I fit the criteria of North Americans with long colonial American roots still getting a very high percent UK Living DNA results AND have Welsh ancestors. Living DNA reports me as 98.7% UK! And 1.3% Scandinavian. They also report 2.9% North Wales and 9% South Wales for a total of about 12% Wales. I am still in the process of sorting out my Welsh ancestors but it appears Living DNA's total Wales estimate is accurate as hashing out my family tree in Excel gives me a reasonably close 16% total for Wales.

I have a James line leading back to 1690 Riddillyn, Pembrokeshire, South Wales who settled in Buck's County, Pennsylvania in the early 1700s. Also Jones/Williams/Powell 1827 Rumney, Cardiff, Glamorgan/Monmouthshire, South Wales who settled in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania.

I have some Edwards around 1720 from Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, North Wales coming to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania. And some people coming from Anglesey, North Wales about the same time to Buck's County, Pennsylvania.

My Complete and Cautious and I should have SOME Swedish or Scandinavian and SOME German/Swiss but am 100% UK.. I can see 8,9 or 10% not Ireland or Britain but now 100% I also have a serious amount of cousin matches on my Swedish line (and they are only that line.. can be seen on Gedmatch) and My German Palatinate ( 2 large DNA Circles)
18787 and 18788

So it is a LOT of North Wales.. in line with the amount of Welsh cousin matches

And THANKS to EVERYONE for helping me think it through..:love:

Robert1
09-16-2017, 08:03 PM
Wow thanks Robert.. Have you tested autosomal anywhere else to see if there are a lot of cousins? Most of my 4th cousin matches seem to be an accumulations of smallish segments.. is that in line do you think with 7-8th cousin matches? Here is one of them and myself at Gedmatch

Chr Start Location End Location Centimorgans (cM) SNPs
#5 36,720,307- 52,211,656 8.2 cM 2,019
#5 82,218,715- 98,607,684 12.9 cM 2,740
# 18 58,695,331- 67,287,171 13.5 cM 2,392

Wow, Kathlingram! A 100% UK pedigree US citizen - while I'm only 98.7%! :beerchug: And we have PA, Delaware and NC roots. My Mother born in Huntingdon Co, PA and Father in Davie County, NC

Of course like you my UK is over-reported as I'm confident some of my SE England is actually continental NW Europe - Germany 4.5%, Netherlands 0.6% and possibly France/Belgium 0.6%, plus though I have no record of it I'll hang on to their 1.3% Scandinavian estimate because it could be NW Scotland or UK in general or German. Still I'm quite sure I'm 93% UK so tip my hat to Living DNA and thank them for helping point out where in the UK my ancestors came from.

I have tested my autosomal DNA at Ancestry.com (and can invite you to my family tree if you want), 23&Me, FTDNA and Living DNA and have thousands of 4th-8th cousin matches. I've also tested 111 marker Y-DNA and the Big Y plus Full Genome MTDNA. I have tested my 94 year-old Mother at Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA and Living DNA. I have tested my 87 year-old paternal aunt at Ancestry.com and Living DNA and uploaded her raw data to FTDNA for matching. I have tested my two sisters at FTDNA. All autosomal data has been uploaded to GEDmatch as well. All results are in except for my Mother's and paternal aunt's LDNA, due in Nov.

Still, with all that I am a novice. I started all this in January, including my first family tree. My main effort was to track down the father of my paternal grandfather born out of wedlock in 1888. I was successful due to luck and all the fishing nets I bought and threw into the above databases. So I've just very recently started looking toward Wales and my mtDNA.

Most of my chromosome matching has been chromosome 2 from 34,000,300-78,000,000 where I got about 15 strong 13 to 41 cM matches I was able to correspond with and find McIver and Campbell ancestors. My two Y111 and three Big Y matches backed up what I already knew from autosomal DNA. I was very lucky to get substantial chromosome segments on #2 so didn't look at lower than 10 cM except on #9 to match to my "love 'em and leave 'em" great grandfather's mother's side.

I am certainly willing to look further because Wales now has risen to the top!

My GEDmatch kit# is T768540 , my Mother's is T426422 and my paternal aunt's is A397913 and a Lazarus kit for my Father LL439883 . Wales is on both sides of my tree.

Robert1
09-16-2017, 08:33 PM
I'm trying to add pictures of my Living DNA results but having trouble on this tablet. Will get them up later...

EDIT, ah this will do!

Living DNA
Sub Regions

Complete
Europe 100%

Great Britain and Ireland 98.7%
Southeast England 21.8%
Northwest Scotland 20.8%
Northwest England 10%
South Wales 9%
Aberdeenshire 6.9%
Ireland 6.1%
North Yorkshire 5.5%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
Northumbria 3.9%
North Wales 2.9%
Cornwall 2.7%
South Central England 1.7%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.3%
Devon 1.3%

Europe (North and West) 1.3%
Scandinavia 1.3%


Standard
Europe 100%

Great Britain and Ireland 98.7%
Southeast England 21.8%
Northwest Scotland 20.8%
Northwest England 10%
South Wales 9%
Aberdeenshire 6.9%
Ireland 6.1%
South Yorkshire 4.7%
North Wales 2.9%
Cornwall 2.7%
South Central England 1.7%
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 1.3%
Devon 1.3%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 9.4%

Europe (unassigned) 1.3%


Cautious
Europe 100%

Great Britain and Ireland 98.7%
Northwest Scotland-related ancestry 35.1%
Southeast England-related ancestry 23.6%
South Yorkshire-related ancestry 14.8%
South Wales-related ancestry 9%
Cornwall-related ancestry 4%
North Wales 2.9%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 9.4%

Europe (unassigned) 1.3%

Kathlingram
09-17-2017, 12:12 AM
Wow, Kathlingram! A 100% UK pedigree US citizen - while I'm only 98.7%! :beerchug: And we have PA, Delaware and NC roots. My Mother born in Huntingdon Co, PA and Father in Davie County, NC

Of course like you my UK is over-reported as I'm confident some of my SE England is actually continental NW Europe - Germany 4.5%, Netherlands 0.6% and possibly France/Belgium 0.6%, plus though I have no record of it I'll hang on to their 1.3% Scandinavian estimate because it could be NW Scotland or UK in general or German. Still I'm quite sure I'm 93% UK so tip my hat to Living DNA and thank them for helping point out where in the UK my ancestors came from.

I have tested my autosomal DNA at Ancestry.com (and can invite you to my family tree if you want), 23&Me, FTDNA and Living DNA and have thousands of 4th-8th cousin matches. I've also tested 111 marker Y-DNA and the Big Y plus Full Genome MTDNA. I have tested my 94 year-old Mother at Ancestry.com, 23&Me, FTDNA and Living DNA. I have tested my 87 year-old paternal aunt at Ancestry.com and Living DNA and uploaded her raw data to FTDNA for matching. I have tested my two sisters at FTDNA. All autosomal data has been uploaded to GEDmatch as well. All results are in except for my Mother's and paternal aunt's LDNA, due in Nov.

Still, with all that I am a novice. I started all this in January, including my first family tree. My main effort was to track down the father of my paternal grandfather born out of wedlock in 1888. I was successful due to luck and all the fishing nets I bought and threw into the above databases. So I've just very recently started looking toward Wales and my mtDNA.

Most of my chromosome matching has been chromosome 2 from 34,000,300-78,000,000 where I got about 15 strong 13 to 41 cM matches I was able to correspond with and find McIver and Campbell ancestors. My two Y111 and three Big Y matches backed up what I already knew from autosomal DNA. I was very lucky to get substantial chromosome segments on #2 so didn't look at lower than 10 cM except on #9 to match to my "love 'em and leave 'em" great grandfather's mother's side.

I am certainly willing to look further because Wales now has risen to the top!

My GEDmatch kit# is T768540 , my Mother's is T426422 and my paternal aunt's is A397913 and a Lazarus kit for my Father LL439883 . Wales is on both sides of my tree.

Robert
WOW for testing..Good job.. I was only able to get a Lazarus Kit for my Mom.. Dad the possible Welshman does not have enough people who have matched him.. I figured it was because the Father was supposedly his stepfather who is 100% Norwegian.. but NOPE..Welsh matches kicked that away..
My Gedmatch kit is M103328 and my sister's is M102148.. WE (You and I and Sister Carol) share matches with McNahm (ScienceLover) and Daryl Maxwell..
Hers most probably is Swedish and Darryl Maxwell according to FTDNA's maternal/Paternal thing is on my Mom's line.. OK I checked some people and Maxwell is a West Cork /Kerry match..Lynch Cronin Sullivan Harrington all connected

You may have more than 6% Irish but if it is West Cork/Kerry they again were Gaelic speakers and the Beara peninsula ( O'Sullivan Beare)

You can see how may of my people I tested at gedmatch.. 4 grandchildren and two of my sons..my sister ..first cousins.. First once removed.. McNahm matches the Lynch Cronin Sullivan great great grandmother ( my mitoDNA maternal line) so McNahm could also be that instead.. My Swede's grandson married Margaret Lynch from Cork's Daughter and my German comes in there..
My maternal line Mom's Lazarus LL487113 is Faunt (Fant) I Admin the Fant Faunt Surname Groups at FTDNA( as well as Carrow) and it is I2a Norman ( Sardinia) the L'enfant family ( Fant in Ireland) came to Ireland and built a castle (which still exists) in the 13thc.. Fantstown Limerick and all Fants match in DNA.. My Grandfather Faunt was first Generation Irish born in US.. 100% Irish.. Mom's line is great..My Mito is J2b1a1(a) we have a private mutation ONLY shared with one other family also from West Cork.. I think it is a reversion or "back mutation"
Poor Dad has this big paternal hole that you are helping me figure out..
Enough for now.. we will have nightmares

I AM working with 4 of my bigger Welsh matches.. all of whom still live in the UK..
Kathleen

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-17-2017, 07:09 AM
I have a number of unexplained "Y" or autosomal matches with people who claim virtually entire early colonial ancestry in America, early 1700's or before. How realistic that is, I don't know. No paper trail.
North Carolina seems to feature fairly often with South Carolina and Virginia, less so. I may possibly have some sort of "Y" connection to the Newfoundland area (I'm aware of early Welsh links to that region Cambriol etc.)
Sir William Vaughan and Cambriol.

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjmuKmj0qvWAhWkOsAKHQmXAuwQFgguMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.biographi.ca%2Fen%2Fbio%2Fvau ghan_william_1E.html&usg=AFQjCNFP6SzONkMTliYjCgoNypbqjRPZqg

avalon
09-17-2017, 09:35 AM
I just find it very hard to wrap my head around how my 5-6-7th great grandparents who were mostly born to Welsh settlers or came as infants could give me upwards of 150 3-4-5th cousin matches who still live in Wales..
although actually the 30+ that AncestryDNA identifies as being part of that geographic Community are IN Wales.. other more distant relatives are in US

I think the answer to this lies with what poster AJL linked to earlier in the thread. We need more genetic research from Wales, particularly ancientDNA from various points in Welsh history, but it does like the Welsh may have had historically a small or restricted gene pool.

This is total speculation on my part, but I like the idea that following the Black Death 1348, the population was obviously greatly reduced and in Wales like elsewhere, it took a long time to recover. So as I see it, you have a period from roughly 1350 up to the 1700s where the largely rural population remains relatively stable and where there isn't much internal migration within Wales or from England to Wales. It's only really with the beginnings of Industrialisation in the 1700s that the population starts to change.

And of course during this same period you also have Welsh people migrating to America 1600/1700s so I can see how the genetic affinity would still be visible today, and I think having an historically small gene pool is a factor in this.

avalon
09-17-2017, 10:41 AM
I fit the criteria of North Americans with long colonial American roots still getting a very high percent UK Living DNA results AND have Welsh ancestors. Living DNA reports me as 98.7% UK! And 1.3% Scandinavian. They also report 2.9% North Wales and 9% South Wales for a total of about 12% Wales. I am still in the process of sorting out my Welsh ancestors but it appears Living DNA's total Wales estimate is accurate as hashing out my family tree in Excel gives me a reasonably close 16% total for Wales.


I think it's incredible that you and kathlingram are getting such high UK% from LivingDNA. A fair few British based testers aren't even getting that much!!

I think the Welsh scores are probably pretty accurate as LIvingDNA have said that their Welsh regions are quite distinctive and unlikely to be mistaken with other regions. Obviously the Scottish and Irish % may be inaccurate as they require more samples from those countries. Looks to be quite good for you, though maybe overstating your British/Irish ancestry slightly.

Kathlingram
09-17-2017, 11:26 AM
I think the answer to this lies with what poster AJL linked to earlier in the thread. We need more genetic research from Wales, particularly ancientDNA from various points in Welsh history, but it does like the Welsh may have had historically a small or restricted gene pool.

This is total speculation on my part, but I like the idea that following the Black Death 1348, the population was obviously greatly reduced and in Wales like elsewhere, it took a long time to recover. So as I see it, you have a period from roughly 1350 up to the 1700s where the largely rural population remains relatively stable and where there isn't much internal migration within Wales or from England to Wales. It's only really with the beginnings of Industrialisation in the 1700s that the population starts to change.

And of course during this same period you also have Welsh people migrating to America 1600/1700s so I can see how the genetic affinity would still be visible today, and I think having an historically small gene pool is a factor in this.

Yes Avalon, we do need more genetic research from Wales..Genetic drift is an interesting theory as is some sort of Founder Effect..
I do appreciate that we are all problem solving here.. I have struggled with large DNA matches from Wales since 2009 when I was a Beta test at 23andme..Someone named Dilys from NZ whose ancestors were all Welsh.. Since I have so much Irish and I know they were in the Military and sometimes stayed in UK I assumed it was that.. apparently that ws not the case

My father's father is the mystery place..First DNA test showed some Nordic samples that looked Saami ( per Dr. McDonald) So I just assumed that was Dad's Bjarkoy stepfather.. But 5 million testers at Ancestry and 2+ Million at 23andme has made that theory sort of unworkable with NO first second or even third Norway matches.. and Grandpop was 100% Norwegian..
So it seems to me that I have to conclude that Dad's paternal line included someone from Wales.. however clearly Dad's maternal line, Carrow ( which also match Vaughn in NC) had all these Welsh Tract ancestors between 1690 and 1820 who married their cousins.. Does "Genetic Drift" make genetic distance problematical? Probably..

Also add in the fact that my numerous Carrow cousins do not seem to share all the Welsh Matches that my sister and I do.. Why is that? One theory my mother had said was that "people said" that Dad's father was an uncle.. Could that do it? Perhaps.. Not his own uncle of which there is only one but Grandmother's uncle..possibly.. She was only a teenager and only two palces were possible.. Her parents separated when she was 14 and her father went to Baltimore MD and her mother stayed in Penns Grove NJ..BOTH of those places have proximity to "Peach Bottom" and Delta PA where Welsh slate workers came en masse.. and two such families came to South jersey in our small town to work at the DuPont plant in WWI..3 families actually but 2 are Roberts and they came from North Wales where some at least of my matches come from ..Pwlleli and Llanddeiniolen in Caernarvonshire.. One of those families lived a block or so from Grandmother in 1920 although I think it was perhaps a visiting young man

Again I very much appreciate us putting our collective heads together.. I do not have NC ancestors BUT my Carrows who came to Accomac VA c 1643 were early in NC and we match in Y DNA and possibilities of time.. All of my own folks came into the Delaware Estuary in one fashion or another.. My Irish to Philadelphia later on..The Welsh to Delaware and MD and they are all paternal except for a 3rd great grandmother A Lewis who was from Paoli PA and said to come with William Penn also

Judith
09-17-2017, 12:03 PM
I have a Welsh border line in Shropshire (shown as south border in livingDNA btw) and some predicted 3-4th cousins within 10 miles of our known places of residence. We have gone back 8-9 generations together and only found one common surname. So either some NPE amongst cousins various or the links are much older due to inbred populations.

However if you have MANY present day Welsh residents in your autosomal matches and livingDNA shows Welsh then you Welsh grandfather theory has support.
LivingDNA used the agricultural shows for samples and to get the ancestral signature and that must be right because only families tied to the land were immobile. I am altering my area ancestry every few weeks as a Cheshire (rural county mainly, but with early industrial revolution mining activity) person is actually half or even full external immigrant to the county.
18 months ago I had no uk matches and put lots of effort into my first ones, with varied success. Now I have 100s including 2 2nd cousins in addition to the cousins that I tested. So the position over here is developing fast and you could get a breakthrough in the next few months.

Kathlingram
09-17-2017, 12:55 PM
I have a Welsh border line in Shropshire (shown as south border in livingDNA btw) and some predicted 3-4th cousins within 10 miles of our known places of residence. We have gone back 8-9 generations together and only found one common surname. So either some NPE amongst cousins various or the links are much older due to inbred populations.

However if you have MANY present day Welsh residents in your autosomal matches and livingDNA shows Welsh then you Welsh grandfather theory has support.
LivingDNA used the agricultural shows for samples and to get the ancestral signature and that must be right because only families tied to the land were immobile. I am altering my area ancestry every few weeks as a Cheshire (rural county mainly, but with early industrial revolution mining activity) person is actually half or even full external immigrant to the county.
18 months ago I had no uk matches and put lots of effort into my first ones, with varied success. Now I have 100s including 2 2nd cousins in addition to the cousins that I tested. So the position over here is developing fast and you could get a breakthrough in the next few months.

Judith
Your Shropshire match is important in it's size and distance.. Where did you get your cousin matches? What we get from LivingDNA at Genesis is iffy for some..I have NO second cousins as of yet I don't think although my sister may have one
18815

This is what I posted of my SubRegions.. a screen shot.. but they are this:
Complete
North Wales 21.9%
Ireland 16.1 %
Southwest Scotland and Northern Ireland 9.1%
Central England 6.3 %
Southeast England 6.3%
South Yorkshire 6.1 %
Northwest Scotland 5.5%
South Wales Border 4.3%
South England 3.7%
Northumbria 3.4%
North Yorkshire 2.9%
South Central England 2.6%
Cornwall 2.4%
South Wales 2.1%
Northwest England 1.9%
Lincolnshire 1.7%
Orkney 1.7%
Devon 1.6%

My first matches were incorrect and they gave East Anglia 54.4% and Aberdeenshire 20 something and Devon 10 something.. When I inquired as to where was my Irish they said oops.. that was corrupted and took it back
Now they tell my my Southeast England is likely my German ancestors ( lots of cousin matches from them)

I do not think that AncestryDNA genetic Communities are ancient at all as they are projected from actual matches and WHO those matches also have as ancestors.. AncestryDNA's algorithm unfortunately removes ancient segments which is why we hope we can get people to put their genome at Gedmatch

I have 30 good sized matches from North Wales there..overlapping with Welsh Midlands some of my best matches do not share their genome but I can infer it from who they match

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-17-2017, 01:02 PM
I think the answer to this lies with what poster AJL linked to earlier in the thread. We need more genetic research from Wales, particularly ancientDNA from various points in Welsh history, but it does like the Welsh may have had historically a small or restricted gene pool.

This is total speculation on my part, but I like the idea that following the Black Death 1348, the population was obviously greatly reduced and in Wales like elsewhere, it took a long time to recover. So as I see it, you have a period from roughly 1350 up to the 1700s where the largely rural population remains relatively stable and where there isn't much internal migration within Wales or from England to Wales. It's only really with the beginnings of Industrialisation in the 1700s that the population starts to change.

And of course during this same period you also have Welsh people migrating to America 1600/1700s so I can see how the genetic affinity would still be visible today, and I think having an historically small gene pool is a factor in this.

You are right, we have to remember the population of Wales pre- Industrial revolution was small. I think even by 1750 it was only around 500,000 and I would think there wouldn't be that much population movement.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-17-2017, 01:09 PM
I have a Welsh border line in Shropshire (shown as south border in livingDNA btw) and some predicted 3-4th cousins within 10 miles of our known places of residence. We have gone back 8-9 generations together and only found one common surname. So either some NPE amongst cousins various or the links are much older due to inbred populations.

However if you have MANY present day Welsh residents in your autosomal matches and livingDNA shows Welsh then you Welsh grandfather theory has support.
LivingDNA used the agricultural shows for samples and to get the ancestral signature and that must be right because only families tied to the land were immobile. I am altering my area ancestry every few weeks as a Cheshire (rural county mainly, but with early industrial revolution mining activity) person is actually half or even full external immigrant to the county.
18 months ago I had no uk matches and put lots of effort into my first ones, with varied success. Now I have 100s including 2 2nd cousins in addition to the cousins that I tested. So the position over here is developing fast and you could get a breakthrough in the next few months.

We have to remember that Patrilineal naming "Son of" or "Ap" carried on in Welsh or culturally Welsh areas (close to the border) quite late, particularly amongst the less well-off, so a considerable number of surnames could come from the same paternal line. That's one of the problems with tracing Welsh ancestry. :)

Judith
09-17-2017, 01:52 PM
My 3-4th cousin matches were via 23&me then GEDmatch where it added to one of my tested cousins which identified my Rogers line to Oswestry (~5 miles from Wrexham and Wales) and also at GEDmatch (on a different part of the chromosome) from Ancestry the same line to Wrexham and Staffordshire. Most of my tests have been with ftdna. Wrexham being a mining town would have pulled workers in from a large rural area.
My known found second cousins are one with ancestry and one with 23&me, neither of whom have uploaded to GEDmatch (yet).

Judith
09-17-2017, 02:03 PM
We have to remember that Patrilineal naming "Son of" or "Ap" carried on in Welsh or culturally Welsh areas (close to the border) quite late, particularly amongst the less well-off, so a considerable number of surnames could come from the same paternal line. That's one of the problems with tracing Welsh ancestry. :)

In 'my' Whittington village in Shropshire England they were still using ap son of and verch daughter of in the 1600s, significantly later than mainstream England. The locals knew who John ap William was at the time but looking backwards it is not possible to tell which family they came from.

Kathlingram
09-17-2017, 03:09 PM
My 3-4th cousin matches were via 23&me then GEDmatch where it added to one of my tested cousins which identified my Rogers line to Oswestry (~5 miles from Wrexham and Wales) and also at GEDmatch (on a different part of the chromosome) from Ancestry the same line to Wrexham and Staffordshire. Most of my tests have been with ftdna. Wrexham being a mining town would have pulled workers in from a large rural area.
My known found second cousins are one with ancestry and one with 23&me, neither of whom have uploaded to GEDmatch (yet).

I think you can usually take 23andme matches to the bank.. they are always close.. My largest Welsh match who goes to both Pwlleli and Llanddeiniolen will not go to Gedmatch or even share his genome at 23andme He is however a .73% 2 segment match with me and a .66% 3 segment match with my sister

At AncestryDNA it says this for me 36 centimorgans shared across 3 DNA segments ( which shows how they break up matches..like teeth on a comb it is described) and this for my sister 24.3 centimorgans shared across 2 DNA segments

Now however for the first time he shares a match with me (35 centimorgans shared across 2 DNA segments) and Sister at AncestryDNA and those two people go back to a series of Evan Jones in Pwllheli, Caernarvonshire

and he share one more person (at least) at 23andme( Rees Roberts) with Sister and I.. my share is small but Sister's is 3rd cousin .65% and his with Colin ( my elusive Welshman who won't share genome) is 1.16% which is clearly also 3rd cousin per ISOGG.. So Colin HAS Helped me by figuring out EXACTLY where he sheres with Rees Roberts.. which is AGAIN in the series of Evan Jones in Pwilli..this one he figure is 1818 and wife is a Roberts..
So that help a lot.. I just cannot parlay it further into time EXCEPT for the group of people living in Peach Bottom and Delta York County PA.. 18817 THIS couple's daughter.. May They Be Resting in Peace

Kathlingram
09-20-2017, 12:11 PM
I want to mention that two of my larger North Wales matches have now put their DNA into Family Tree DNA and I can see those connections also..
Bless Tim and Dewi