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sktibo
08-20-2017, 11:50 PM
I've been brick walled on these ancestors for quite a while now and I'm just putting this out there in case somebody here is able to give me a hand with these ancestors:

My 2nd Great-Grandfather was a man named Clarke Christie, who was born in Bruce County Ontario abt. 1849. Religion: Presbyterian, Ethnic Origin: Scottish According to the 1871 Canada Census. The 1861 Census lists religion as "Free Church". 1901 Census lists Religion: Presbyterian, Ethnic Origin: Irish.

His father is listed in the 1861 Census as being born in Ireland, religious affiliation: Free Church. 1871: Presbyterian, Ethnic Origin: Scottish, Born in Ireland.

His mother, whose maiden name was Clark, is listed in the 1871 Census as being born in Canada West, and religion listed as Free Church. 1871 Lists her as born in Ireland, Presbyterian, Ethnic Origin: Irish.

So that's basically all I have on these people, no specific location in Ireland at all, and I'm not completely sure if my 2x G-Grandfather's mother was born in Canada or Ireland. Her ethnic origin is listed once as Irish but her religious denomination and the fact that she married a person who was probably ethnically Scottish indicates that she might have been as well. My Grandfather said that his mother's people (these ancestors) "Came from County Cork" yet I have discovered that the other half of these ancestors, my 2nd Great-Grandfather's wife's family, were all from Coleraine in Northern Ireland - so this claim of County Cork certainly isn't true for all of them.

Thanks very much for any pointers or advice

McGowan
09-21-2017, 12:04 PM
Presbyterian? They're likely Scottish/Ulster Scot & not Irish.

Brickwalls try https://www.genealogyforum.co.uk/forum/index.php or https://www.british-genealogy.com/. The 2nd one has some good researchers, even for Ireland.

kostoffj
09-21-2017, 01:47 PM
There's also a researcher named John Grenham (www.johngrenham.com) who's an Irish genealogist who has resources on his site and seems to be available for hire. I can't vouch for him as I've never hired him but looks promising. I'm in a similar situation as you sktibo, at some point in the nearish future I'm going to devote my full attention to unraveling some unknowns WRT my Irish ancestors.

Everyone is documented back to when they immigrated here, but the records simply say "Ireland." Family lore says Co. Waterford (unreliable) and the headstone for my 2nd G-Grandparents paternal line also says Co. Waterford (better). But after that it's a big mystery. Irish genealogy once you're in Ireland seems especially tricky and needful of hired help, IMO, for various reasons.

spruithean
09-21-2017, 01:48 PM
Presbyterian? They're likely Scottish/Ulster Scot & not Irish.

Brickwalls try https://www.genealogyforum.co.uk/forum/index.php or https://www.british-genealogy.com/. The 2nd one has some good researchers, even for Ireland.

Indeed, however in early Canadian records it was not too common for Presbyterians (or Anglicans) from Ireland to be documented as anything other than "Irish". However there are some cases where you see their ethnic origin as "Scottish" and their birthplace as "Ireland". This Christie family was one example of the early "Scottish born in Ireland" distinction. All of my Scots or Presbyterians from Ireland were simply documented as "Irish" and nothing more.

Sktibo,

I haven't been able to find anything with quick searches for John Christie in Ireland, however there is another Christie family in Bruce County (see this page (http://www.deeprootstalltrees.com/Journals/christie/d1.htm)). Perhaps John Christie and Samuel Christie are related?

In regards to Margaret Clark; I did find a Margaret Clark born in Waterford, Ireland to a Maurice & Martha Clark in 1816, this Margaret was christened 3 Nov 1816. Perhaps that could be something to pursue?


Here is a distribution of the surname Christie in Ireland (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Christie).
Here is a distribution of the surname Clark in Ireland (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Clark) or Clarke (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Clarke).



Here is a link to the Bruce County Genealogical Society (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onbcgs/) as well as Bruce County Museum (http://www.brucemuseum.ca/collections-research/archives-and-research/genealogy/). I hope these are of use to you.

Like you I have been roadblocked on a number of lines back through Ireland & Scotland, many of which do not specify where they were born within which country. It seems like as soon as they got off the boat everyone decided it was time to forget where they were from! Thankfully for at least a few branches there were large family books recording majority of the descendants of a common couple. On another note my grandmother had always been told her paternal side came from "Derry & Tipperary" however research and genetic testing has found that it was actually much more complicated than that... it was more like Donegal, Tipperary and Offaly!

MikeWhalen
09-21-2017, 02:47 PM
Hi Sktibo...welcome to the damn Irish wall many of us face...and mine is linked to Bruce Co. Ont as well

I too have a major brick wall on my y line Whalen's and while I have had fun with my DNA test-found NPE family, I still have not found any damn relevant Whalen's (or Whealen's as my original Irish immigrant liked to spell it)

In any case, my Whalen's came from Co. Tipperary to Canada in the 1820's via a War of 1812 military service grant of land in the Ottawa area

Then, 25 some years later, they and several kin branches traveled across the Province in a large wagon train to what would become Bruce county for cheap land as the Gov opened up what was then called 'The Queen's Bush' in the western edge of the Province...most of my people settled in Kincardine twnsp

I too have looked at the all the documents available for that area and time period and I can tell you, record keeping was very spotty and I am missing several key documents that 'should' have been available (ie a death certificate from 1874)-so while I hope you can find the docs you need via Ancestry.com (the Ont. gov gave them the right to use them in their data base in return for them digitizing them all), don't be too surprised if you have mixed results

one tip I can tell you is be careful about what religion was noted on the census...it was either wrong or misleading for several of my kin in the 1861, 1871 ect censuses, and this was not always due to sloppy census taking or them talking to the wrong person, which we all know is a notorious issue...

One of the things is in the early days, not all the different protestant denominations had their own church back in those days (remember, it was true dense wilderness bush they had to hack a farm out of), so they would go to what ever one did exist and some years later, as in the case of my kin, help build their own type of church many years later

Another thing is there were a zillion protestant Irish/Scottish/English immigrants then, due to the various population schemes the British gov came up with to increase the numbers of 'loyal' men that could fight a 2nd incursion by the Americans in the sparcly populated wilderness of Southern Ontario

I read one book that said that during the hectic land sale auctions that occurred in the early 1850's in Bruce Co., there were so many Irish and Scottish immigrants that one guy started a drunken riot one night when he yelled out loud, in Gaelic 'Beat anyone that does not speak the old tongue boys' (or something similar, its been years since I read it)
...again, the point being, there were many flavors of Irish, Scots Irish and English back then emigrating to Bruce and the neighboring counties...at the beginning they tended to stay together so sometimes it is possible if you know the exact town they first started in, to find out if it was really an Irish dominated town, or one of the other ethnicity's...just as an example, I know the Kincardine area had a huge amount of Tipperary Irish there, many from the old neighborhoods in Ireland, sticking together over time and distances

I can also tell you that the Bruce Co genealogical and or historical societies are pretty active and have some good info... I only got some key documents when a cousin physically traveled to Kincardine and checked out various spots, including getting some original documents that were held at the church...so I dont know where you live or if it is possible, but a visit to the appropriate area and the societies and churches might get you info you will not find on line...my cousin was not in any way an expert and she said folks were very helpful and nice

It has been quite a while now since I have investigated this line, so perhaps new records are available or better sources, but that that is how I found it

good luck

Mike

sktibo
09-21-2017, 06:14 PM
Indeed, however in early Canadian records it was not too common for Presbyterians (or Anglicans) from Ireland to be documented as anything other than "Irish". However there are some cases where you see their ethnic origin as "Scottish" and their birthplace as "Ireland". This Christie family was one example of the early "Scottish born in Ireland" distinction. All of my Scots or Presbyterians from Ireland were simply documented as "Irish" and nothing more.

Sktibo,

I haven't been able to find anything with quick searches for John Christie in Ireland, however there is another Christie family in Bruce County (see this page (http://www.deeprootstalltrees.com/Journals/christie/d1.htm)). Perhaps John Christie and Samuel Christie are related?

In regards to Margaret Clark; I did find a Margaret Clark born in Waterford, Ireland to a Maurice & Martha Clark in 1816, this Margaret was christened 3 Nov 1816. Perhaps that could be something to pursue?


Here is a distribution of the surname Christie in Ireland (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Christie).
Here is a distribution of the surname Clark in Ireland (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Clark) or Clarke (https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=Clarke).



Here is a link to the Bruce County Genealogical Society (http://www.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~onbcgs/) as well as Bruce County Museum (http://www.brucemuseum.ca/collections-research/archives-and-research/genealogy/). I hope these are of use to you.

Like you I have been roadblocked on a number of lines back through Ireland & Scotland, many of which do not specify where they were born within which country. It seems like as soon as they got off the boat everyone decided it was time to forget where they were from! Thankfully for at least a few branches there were large family books recording majority of the descendants of a common couple. On another note my grandmother had always been told her paternal side came from "Derry & Tipperary" however research and genetic testing has found that it was actually much more complicated than that... it was more like Donegal, Tipperary and Offaly!

Off the top of my head, Clarke Christie had a brother named Samuel who ran a factory in Ontario, I have a Samuel listed as a younger brother to Clarke so might not be directly related to the Samuel you have listed, although who knows it might be an uncle or something?
I'll have to investigate that info you've found on Margaret. I have Abt. 1819 listed as her birth date as far as I've found so 1816 could well be it. Waterford might make sense as it's near to County Cork... wouldn't be too much of a stretch from the family lore. Definitely worth investigating! thank you

Very interesting to note that some of these ancestors still have a crack at being native Irish, encouraging even!

spruithean
09-22-2017, 04:59 PM
Off the top of my head, Clarke Christie had a brother named Samuel who ran a factory in Ontario, I have a Samuel listed as a younger brother to Clarke so might not be directly related to the Samuel you have listed, although who knows it might be an uncle or something?
I'll have to investigate that info you've found on Margaret. I have Abt. 1819 listed as her birth date as far as I've found so 1816 could well be it. Waterford might make sense as it's near to County Cork... wouldn't be too much of a stretch from the family lore. Definitely worth investigating! thank you

Very interesting to note that some of these ancestors still have a crack at being native Irish, encouraging even!

I would certainly look into the genealogical records of the other Christie families in Bruce County. Bruce County (among other counties in that region) had a fairly large amount of Scottish and Irish settlers. There is always the possibility that various same-surname families are related, though it is equally as possible for them to be unrelated. I've found the birth dates for these settlers in this era to be quite open to large variation in other records.

I have a few lines in Ireland that have actually proven to be of mixed Ulster-Scot + native Irish or "Hiberno-Norman" + native Irish. More interesting is the fact that the male-line of the Hiberno-Norman family appears to have had an NPE and it would seem their biological male line was native Irish too!

sktibo
09-23-2017, 09:11 PM
I just got my mother's DNA test results back from Ancestry DNA at the fastest DNA test processing time I've ever seen - one and a half weeks. She was only assigned a very low 7% Irish percentage, I expected this to be much, much higher given as she's 25% "Irish" on paper as mentioned above. I'm going to see what appears for her DNA relatives shortly and I'm hoping to find something helpful on this side with the test results now in.
This very low percentage indicates that there may not be any native Irish in her.

sktibo
10-03-2017, 05:07 PM
Getting my mother tested was worth it-
I located a DNA relative also descended from the Christie line who had information on them - They came to Ireland from Aberdeenshire, and I suppose this explains why I wasn't able to find Irish records on them as they weren't in Ireland for very long. Ethnicity estimates are fun, and sometimes incredibly far off, but DNA relatives have proved invaluable!
This leaves only one more mystery line on my Irish ancestors.