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Phoebe Watts
08-22-2017, 09:34 AM
Can anyone here help explain my cautious mode results? I wrote on another thread that I had asked Living DNA about them and didn't understand the response. Judith suggested that I should post the response here and that somebody might be able to help.

When my Living DNA results arrived, they looked consistent with my research where I found all 32 of the 3x great grandparents born in north and south-west Wales but with known ancestors from England in previous generations. The Living DNA standard mode results were North Wales 39.7%; South Wales 27.7%; South Central England 10.0%; North West England 4.4%; Cornwall 3.4%; Aberdeenshire 1.7%; Orkney 1.3% and 11.8% unassigned.

When the cautious mode arrived it seemed to be telling a different story with South Wales Border related 42.1%; North Wales 39.7%; Cornwall related 3.4%; Orkney related 3.0%; unassigned 11.8%. Comparing the maps for the two modes, it looked as if south-west Wales (and north-west England) had just disappeared.

I asked Living DNA about my interpretation of the maps and I'm not sure the response is relevant. My question was: "The standard view shows 27.7% ancestry linked to South Wales (South West Wales on the map)." "But the cautious view seems to show no ancestry from South West Wales. Is it just that the map of "South Wales Border" doesn't extend far enough - i.e. that "South Wales Border" should include the whole of South Wales? Or is there another explanation?"

The response started with an explanation of DNA recombination and went on:
"We also know that some populations are genetically close and will share a very similar signature. This means that sometimes, even our fine-scale algorithm cannot distinguish between these very genetically similar regions. If this is the case, then your DNA will be linked to the best reference dataset that we have.

In the cautious view, we have grouped the most genetically similar populations together. By being cautious and conservative about your assignments, we are most certain about these assignments of your ancestry breakdown.

The areas of Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent are collectively called the South Wales border.

The South Wales border appears to have a shared prehistory and genetic legacy to South and North Wales, being relatively isolated after the first migrations from Western Europe after the ice age. So why does the South Wales border have a different genetic signature to the rest of Wales? The genetic signature across the South Wales border may be so unique because of the Anglo-Saxon invasions having a far smaller impact than they did on the rest of Britain, but more impact than on South and North Wales (Leslie et al., 2015). It may therefore be possible that your DNA has been influenced by Germanic Anglo-Saxons."

Judith
08-22-2017, 10:24 AM
Shropshire is not SOUTH Wales border it is NORTH Wales border!! They were confident enough to show that as different in the PoBI paper but not commercially, the opposite way of normal in fact.
But the map shows Shropshire in NW.
My brother's cautious mode is pretty useless really, if I had needed it, not even Cheshire! whereas standard and complete are the same.
Overall I was very pleased with their results except for the Germany aspect which 23&me shows too for me so that must be some ancient signature since I have not found anything in genealogical times.182451824618247

ollie444
08-22-2017, 05:39 PM
To be honest some of the cautious groupings seem a bit random/sketchy. I think some rejigging or clarification from Living DNA is in order.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-22-2017, 08:39 PM
Most of my known ancestry is South/Mid Wales and Borders. Here are my cautious results. I'm not convinced about the Cornish, Orkney, dubious about the NW Scotland, maybe confusion between similar populations. The North Wales is possible, maybe probable, but no paper trail as yet. Overall all the results reflect my known ancestry pretty well.
Funnily enough my Burusho ( NW Pakistan) refuses to go away whichever mode I use. :) The Europe unassigned comes out as Basque on complete mode. John

Europe 97.1%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.5%
South Wales Border-related ancestry 79.7%
North Wales 7.2%
Northwest Scotland 3.4%
Cornwall-related ancestry 3.1%
Orkney-related ancestry 1.3%
Europe (unassigned) 2.6%
Asia (South) 1.4%
Burusho 1.4%
World (unassigned) 1.4%

The complete mode looks more accurate to me.

Amerijoe
08-22-2017, 09:18 PM
My cautious modes unassigned finds homes in complete mode. The 1.1% unassigned World relates to Kurdish in complete mode. Europe 4.6% unassigned turns into Scandinavian. In complete mode 1.2% Orkney materializes. I think Orkney breaks around 25%+ for Scandinavian mix vs. my 4.6%. There are admixes in gedmatch which give me Orcadian as #1 population which seems strange considering my breakdown. The mentioned Orcadian therefore must refer to British Isles and North Sea area in general. I'd like to see DNA data from the Orkneys if any prior to Scandinavian penetration. Would that data have more Iberian presence? Just some thoughts for discussion.

Sub Regions
Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.3%
Aberdeenshire-related ancestry 65.4%
East Anglia-related ancestry 12.5%
Cornwall-related ancestry 7.8%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 8.6%
Europe (unassigned) 4.6%
World (unassigned) 1.1%

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-23-2017, 06:02 AM
My cautious modes unassigned finds homes in complete mode. The 1.1% unassigned World relates to Kurdish in complete mode. Europe 4.6% unassigned turns into Scandinavian. In complete mode 1.2% Orkney materializes. I think Orkney breaks around 25%+ for Scandinavian mix vs. my 4.6%. There are admixes in gedmatch which give me Orcadian as #1 population which seems strange considering my breakdown. The mentioned Orcadian therefore must refer to British Isles and North Sea area in general. I'd like to see DNA data from the Orkneys if any prior to Scandinavian penetration. Would that data have more Iberian presence? Just some thoughts for discussion.

Sub Regions
Europe 98.9%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.3%
Aberdeenshire-related ancestry 65.4%
East Anglia-related ancestry 12.5%
Cornwall-related ancestry 7.8%
Great Britain and Ireland (unassigned) 8.6%
Europe (unassigned) 4.6%
World (unassigned) 1.1%

Hi Joe, I was watching the third of the TV Series "Vikings" last night and they were referring to Norwegian expansion Westward including the Scottish Isles. They were sort of suggesting that the local population was wiped out or displaced. I can't see that being likely with the female population.
I was wondering about our Orkney percentages - is it something specifically Scandinavian or is it just representative of a celtic/germanic (simplification) mix that can also be found elsewhere? Does the Orkney label just show up because they have tested a lot of people up there relatively speaking?
One of my fairly recent ancestors may have Scottish ancestry, just based on a surname, so I suppose there could be an outside chance it may be "real" in my case rather than just confusing one area with another. Orkney is a pretty remote place for non-Scottish UK people to have recent ancestry from though.
Looking simplistically at my DNA oddities, to me they all say remote/genetically isolated/"early" - Orkney/Basque/NW Pakistan/Sardinian/Native American etc. John

Amerijoe
08-23-2017, 02:11 PM
JohnHT

Hi Joe, I was watching the third of the TV Series "Vikings" last night and they were referring to Norwegian expansion Westward including the Scottish Isles. They were sort of suggesting that the local population was wiped out or displaced. I can't see that being likely with the female population.

The old axiom, to the victor go the spoils. Warfare is a dirty business and winner gets the goodies. This is true from local to national levels. Another thing about winners, they get to pick the best babes. So, no the local population was not wiped out, it was just remixed.


I was wondering about our Orkney percentages - is it something specifically Scandinavian or is it just representative of a celtic/germanic (simplification) mix that can also be found elsewhere? Does the Orkney label just show up because they have tested a lot of people up there relatively speaking?

John, I'm no history expert, so I have to rely on old fashion reasoning. It's been mentioned here numerous times of the Irish Welsh interaction through the millenia. So, here you are a Welshman with a dab of Orkney. Here I am a lad from Paisley with a sprinkle of Welsh. Mabe the connection is Ireland. Ireland being the conduit for trade between the Northern end of the British Isle and the Southern end. A perfect conduit for gene flow in both directions as well. Just one scenario. Others are welcome to expand. I think the Orkneys may have been over sampled vs. their size which could result in skewed results.

I have also have Orkney show up in oracle at Gedmatch, but Orcadian shows up as #1 pop. Due to high North Sea percentage. Orcadian seems ambiguous at best. That's like, one astrophysicist said to the other. What is this crap? Haven't a clue. We can't say that, it will make us look dumb. I got it! We'll call it, Dark Matter. :) Joe

avalon
08-25-2017, 08:29 PM
Can anyone here help explain my cautious mode results? I wrote on another thread that I had asked Living DNA about them and didn't understand the response. Judith suggested that I should post the response here and that somebody might be able to help.

When my Living DNA results arrived, they looked consistent with my research where I found all 32 of the 3x great grandparents born in north and south-west Wales but with known ancestors from England in previous generations. The Living DNA standard mode results were North Wales 39.7%; South Wales 27.7%; South Central England 10.0%; North West England 4.4%; Cornwall 3.4%; Aberdeenshire 1.7%; Orkney 1.3% and 11.8% unassigned.

When the cautious mode arrived it seemed to be telling a different story with South Wales Border related 42.1%; North Wales 39.7%; Cornwall related 3.4%; Orkney related 3.0%; unassigned 11.8%. Comparing the maps for the two modes, it looked as if south-west Wales (and north-west England) had just disappeared.

I asked Living DNA about my interpretation of the maps and I'm not sure the response is relevant. My question was: "The standard view shows 27.7% ancestry linked to South Wales (South West Wales on the map)." "But the cautious view seems to show no ancestry from South West Wales. Is it just that the map of "South Wales Border" doesn't extend far enough - i.e. that "South Wales Border" should include the whole of South Wales? Or is there another explanation?"

The response started with an explanation of DNA recombination and went on:
"We also know that some populations are genetically close and will share a very similar signature. This means that sometimes, even our fine-scale algorithm cannot distinguish between these very genetically similar regions. If this is the case, then your DNA will be linked to the best reference dataset that we have.

In the cautious view, we have grouped the most genetically similar populations together. By being cautious and conservative about your assignments, we are most certain about these assignments of your ancestry breakdown.

The areas of Shropshire, Herefordshire, Monmouthshire, Worcestershire, Powys and Gwent are collectively called the South Wales border.

The South Wales border appears to have a shared prehistory and genetic legacy to South and North Wales, being relatively isolated after the first migrations from Western Europe after the ice age. So why does the South Wales border have a different genetic signature to the rest of Wales? The genetic signature across the South Wales border may be so unique because of the Anglo-Saxon invasions having a far smaller impact than they did on the rest of Britain, but more impact than on South and North Wales (Leslie et al., 2015). It may therefore be possible that your DNA has been influenced by Germanic Anglo-Saxons."

It looks like LivingDNA just gave you the same automatic reply that other people have received which is a shame as it doesn't really help you much.

What appears to have happened is that in cautious mode, your NW England (probably actually your Flintshire if I recall) and your SW Wales and South Central England have been grouped into "South Wales Border related ancestry." The NW England makes sense because in the original POBI paper their "Welsh Borders" cluster was located in the general Herefordshire/Forest of Dean area and in NW England, which would make sense historically. Had they sampled Shropshire they probably would have found it there too.

My guess is that even though you don't actually have any direct ancestry from the South Wales Border area, your ancestry from SW Wales and South Central England maybe "looks" like or has enough in common with South Wales Border ancestry that they decided to assign you there in cautious mode.

The problem with LIvingDNA is that they tried to create nice neat genetic regions but actually if we look at the POBI clustering it is actually much more complicated than that. For example, in Pembrokeshire, POBI identified 5 clusters at the highest level of analysis. At an individual level of ancestry we may not be a perfect match for the POBI samples, our ancestry is probably intermediary between different POBI clusters so we get assigned on a best fit basis.

avalon
08-26-2017, 11:46 AM
Most of my known ancestry is South/Mid Wales and Borders. Here are my cautious results. I'm not convinced about the Cornish, Orkney, dubious about the NW Scotland, maybe confusion between similar populations. The North Wales is possible, maybe probable, but no paper trail as yet. Overall all the results reflect my known ancestry pretty well.
Funnily enough my Burusho ( NW Pakistan) refuses to go away whichever mode I use. :) The Europe unassigned comes out as Basque on complete mode. John

Europe 97.1%
Great Britain and Ireland 94.5%
South Wales Border-related ancestry 79.7%
North Wales 7.2%
Northwest Scotland 3.4%
Cornwall-related ancestry 3.1%
Orkney-related ancestry 1.3%
Europe (unassigned) 2.6%
Asia (South) 1.4%
Burusho 1.4%
World (unassigned) 1.4%

The complete mode looks more accurate to me.

The interesting thing about LivingDNA's North Wales region is that if you look at their map it actually includes a large part of Central Wales and even goes as far south as Ceredigion/Cardiganshire. Given that POBI didn't sample central parts of Wales then I'm assuming that LivingDNA have further samples from this area that lean genetically towards the NW Wales/Anglesey cluster.

So, if you have any known ancestry from Cardiganshire or Montgomeryshire then this might explain your North Wales %. The dividing line between LivingDNAs North Wales and South Wales Border appears to run from Shropshire through Radnorshire and Brecknockshire, difficult to known if there is clear genetic boundary, but what I am seeing in LivingDNAs regions is a sort of reflection of the political boundaries of Medieval Wales.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-26-2017, 01:36 PM
The interesting thing about LivingDNA's North Wales region is that if you look at their map it actually includes a large part of Central Wales and even goes as far south as Ceredigion/Cardiganshire. Given that POBI didn't sample central parts of Wales then I'm assuming that LivingDNA have further samples from this area that lean genetically towards the NW Wales/Anglesey cluster.

So, if you have any known ancestry from Cardiganshire or Montgomeryshire then this might explain your North Wales %. The dividing line between LivingDNAs North Wales and South Wales Border appears to run from Shropshire through Radnorshire and Brecknockshire, difficult to known if there is clear genetic boundary, but what I am seeing in LivingDNAs regions is a sort of reflection of the political boundaries of Medieval Wales.

I have quite a bit of Radnorshire ancestry including from around Colva which I believe is right on the border with Shropshire and Breconshire, farmers going back generations. One of my female ancestors had the surname Clee. Further North (Anglesey) is possible though from an autosomal match I have with someone in the USA. Unfortunately the surname is Jones. :) John

Mixed
08-26-2017, 04:56 PM
I am taking this test but I am concerned it is too U.K. oriented.

avalon
08-27-2017, 01:57 PM
I have quite a bit of Radnorshire ancestry including from around Colva which I believe is right on the border with Shropshire and Breconshire, farmers going back generations. One of my female ancestors had the surname Clee. Further North (Anglesey) is possible though from an autosomal match I have with someone in the USA. Unfortunately the surname is Jones. :) John

Yes, geographically Colva looks like the sort of place that is on the border between LivingDNAs North Wales and South Wales Border so could go either way.

Really, Wales could do with a really detailed genetic study that breaks it down genetically on a very localised basis. LivingDNA are expanding their Scottish and Irish datasets but for some reason they aren't for Wales, as far as I know. I suspect that because Wales is a small country, it tends not to not to receive enough attention from researchers, when perhaps it should, as we know from POBI that there are strong genetic differences within Wales

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-27-2017, 06:07 PM
Yes, geographically Colva looks like the sort of place that is on the border between LivingDNAs North Wales and South Wales Border so could go either way.

Really, Wales could do with a really detailed genetic study that breaks it down genetically on a very localised basis. LivingDNA are expanding their Scottish and Irish datasets but for some reason they aren't for Wales, as far as I know. I suspect that because Wales is a small country, it tends not to not to receive enough attention from researchers, when perhaps it should, as we know from POBI that there are strong genetic differences within Wales

Sorry just noticed, I should have said Colva on the Border Between Radnorshire (nor Breconshire) and Shropshire. John

Phoebe Watts
08-28-2017, 11:58 AM
Thank you for the comments. There are some really useful points.

I should have asked Living DNA whether about the areas included as “South Wales Border related” rather than “South Wales Border”. I’m not questioning how the boundaries are drawn for any of LDNA’s 21 basic regions. I just thought that there would be an explanation of the way the regions were grouped together and especially why some of the standard mode attributions were being lost.

I have now seen results from others where the cautious mode presentation omits some the areas shown with highest percentages in the standard mode results. So it looks as if cautious mode (described as "CAUTIOUS: In this view, we have grouped the most genetically similar populations together. By being cautious and conservative about your assignments, we are most certain about these assignments of your ancestry breakdown.") isn’t working as intended for some of us.

Avalon’s point about the POBI clusters is interesting. The clusters related to south Wales are both in Pembrokeshire. Only five of my 3 x great-grandparents are from that area. The other eleven on that side are from Carmarthenshire and the westernmost edge of Glamorgan. So I must have similarities to both South Wales and South Wales Borders populations. The North Wales attribution will be clearer because almost all my north Wales ancestry is from the areas in the POBI cluster for North Wales.

I had been encouraging relatives to test with Living DNA because it uses the results of POBI because it seemed more relevant to Wales and because this looked an accurate test result for my regional ancestry – certainly better than the predominantly Irish attributions some relatives were getting from Ancestry at the time.

With the standard mode, I understood where most of the attributions are coming from and a high proportion corresponds with my documented ancestry. I might perhaps have expected the English element attributed somewhere further north than it is. Then I have the small amounts of Orkney, Aberdeenshire and Cornwall which seem to be common in people from Wales and the areas further from Anglo Saxon influence. Perhaps there should be an Irish element there somewhere – but it seems that a missing Irish element isn’t uncommon either.

But in cautious mode, and with half my known ancestry from south-west Wales, the empty white space in that region on the map is off-putting. At least now I have a better idea why that is happening.

Hayden
08-28-2017, 01:22 PM
I am taking this test but I am concerned it is too U.K. oriented.

I am doing the same with my father, who is almost, if not entirely continental. So I have similar concerns. While I am anticipating the autosomal results will be a little skewed, I look forward to finding out (definitively) his Y haplogroup and his mtdna for the first time. I am also interested to see how the handle his autosomal results out of pure curiosity. Depending how this goes I hope to get my roughly 40% British mixed Mother done, which should find the UK aspect valuable. I wouldn't of been so keen to test with them if it were not for the German dna project they are doing. Hopefully after they complete it we will get a nice update with that breakdown for Germany as well. It is something to look forward to, even though it is probably going to be awhile.

08-28-2017, 02:05 PM
Really, Wales could do with a really detailed genetic study that breaks it down genetically on a very localised basis. LivingDNA are expanding their Scottish and Irish datasets but for some reason they aren't for Wales, as far as I know. I suspect that because Wales is a small country, it tends not to not to receive enough attention from researchers, when perhaps it should, as we know from POBI that there are strong genetic differences within Wales

Certainly would be interesting results, Suppose Wales is still considered a backwater, and being a principality, brought into "England" very early, and not recognised really as different entity until the act of union. Scotland and Ireland I think to this day are recognised as distinct countries, Certainly in Europe, I don't think they really "get wales". I know we get lumped into England on the US Diversity visa system, as I once tried, and was rejected, I know Ireland, and even Northern Ireland are allowed to enter, not sure about Scotland.
:argue:

avalon
08-28-2017, 08:53 PM
Thank you for the comments. There are some really useful points.

I should have asked Living DNA whether about the areas included as “South Wales Border related” rather than “South Wales Border”. I’m not questioning how the boundaries are drawn for any of LDNA’s 21 basic regions. I just thought that there would be an explanation of the way the regions were grouped together and especially why some of the standard mode attributions were being lost.

I have now seen results from others where the cautious mode presentation omits some the areas shown with highest percentages in the standard mode results. So it looks as if cautious mode (described as "CAUTIOUS: In this view, we have grouped the most genetically similar populations together. By being cautious and conservative about your assignments, we are most certain about these assignments of your ancestry breakdown.") isn’t working as intended for some of us.

Avalon’s point about the POBI clusters is interesting. The clusters related to south Wales are both in Pembrokeshire. Only five of my 3 x great-grandparents are from that area. The other eleven on that side are from Carmarthenshire and the westernmost edge of Glamorgan. So I must have similarities to both South Wales and South Wales Borders populations. The North Wales attribution will be clearer because almost all my north Wales ancestry is from the areas in the POBI cluster for North Wales.

I had been encouraging relatives to test with Living DNA because it uses the results of POBI because it seemed more relevant to Wales and because this looked an accurate test result for my regional ancestry – certainly better than the predominantly Irish attributions some relatives were getting from Ancestry at the time.

With the standard mode, I understood where most of the attributions are coming from and a high proportion corresponds with my documented ancestry. I might perhaps have expected the English element attributed somewhere further north than it is. Then I have the small amounts of Orkney, Aberdeenshire and Cornwall which seem to be common in people from Wales and the areas further from Anglo Saxon influence. Perhaps there should be an Irish element there somewhere – but it seems that a missing Irish element isn’t uncommon either.

But in cautious mode, and with half my known ancestry from south-west Wales, the empty white space in that region on the map is off-putting. At least now I have a better idea why that is happening.

Not sure if you've seen it but you might find the supplementary pdf interesting at the POBI link. http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v519/n7543/full/nature14230.html?foxtrotcallback=true#supplementar y-information

On the last page it shows the UK split into about 50 clusters and in Pembrokeshire there are 3 main clusters and 2 smaller ones, which is quite remarkable when you consider that most of England is still part of the red cluster at that level of analysis.

It would definitely be useful to see more sampling from other parts of Wales such as Carmarthenshire and Glamorgan because we might find clusters there that are slightly different to the Pembrokeshire ones.

avalon
08-28-2017, 09:08 PM
Certainly would be interesting results, Suppose Wales is still considered a backwater, and being a principality, brought into "England" very early, and not recognised really as different entity until the act of union. Scotland and Ireland I think to this day are recognised as distinct countries, Certainly in Europe, I don't think they really "get wales". I know we get lumped into England on the US Diversity visa system, as I once tried, and was rejected, I know Ireland, and even Northern Ireland are allowed to enter, not sure about Scotland.
:argue:

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think that for various historical reasons Scotland and Ireland seem to have a stronger identity than Wales. The Scots and Irish have emigrated to a larger extent than the Welsh, so that might be part of it, if we think the large Irish diaspora in North America plus Scottish Highlanders in Canada, New Zealand, Scots-Irish in the 18th century, etc.

Phoebe Watts
08-28-2017, 09:48 PM
Not sure if you've seen it but you might find the supplementary pdf interesting at the POBI link.

On the last page it shows the UK split into about 50 clusters and in Pembrokeshire there are 3 main clusters and 2 smaller ones, which is quite remarkable when you consider that most of England is still part of the red cluster at that level of analysis.



Thank you! - I hadn't realised that these papers were publicly available. I can already see some sections that are relevant to me.

The differences in the populations in Pembrokeshire are fascinating. Some of my ancestors came from parishes very near the Landsker so I have looked at the language and cultural differences. It is interesting to see how the genetic clusters correspond.

08-29-2017, 07:24 AM
I think you've hit the nail on the head there. I think that for various historical reasons Scotland and Ireland seem to have a stronger identity than Wales. The Scots and Irish have emigrated to a larger extent than the Welsh, so that might be part of it, if we think the large Irish diaspora in North America plus Scottish Highlanders in Canada, New Zealand, Scots-Irish in the 18th century, etc.

Hi Avalon, the migration story is quite interesting for the Welsh, as when they emigrated they were listed as coming from England, and when they landed, again they were listed as came from England, so in my honest opinion the story is in fact quite hidden, I once done a study on this. What I managed to conclude was, the only accurate facts were in the ship's logs, because the way the ships listed their passengers, was from "County", so looking at a number of the ships passenger logs, it was possible to ascertain a % or inference of how many came from Wales. From the many I checked It was allot higher than what seems to be known about today, I would say its quite underestimated.

avalon
08-29-2017, 04:29 PM
Hi Avalon, the migration story is quite interesting for the Welsh, as when they emigrated they were listed as coming from England, and when they landed, again they were listed as came from England, so in my honest opinion the story is in fact quite hidden, I once done a study on this. What I managed to conclude was, the only accurate facts were in the ship's logs, because the way the ships listed their passengers, was from "County", so looking at a number of the ships passenger logs, it was possible to ascertain a % or inference of how many came from Wales. From the many I checked It was allot higher than what seems to be known about today, I would say its quite underestimated.

Yes, I think you are probably right about it being underestimated. I have also read that Welsh surnames are most common in southern states in the US so a lot of it probably came in the earlier settlement of North America, whereas by contrast the large Irish emigration came later which is perhaps why modern Americans are more likely to identify with their Irish roots.

08-29-2017, 04:44 PM
Yes, I think you are probably right about it being underestimated. I have also read that Welsh surnames are most common in southern states in the US so a lot of it probably came in the earlier settlement of North America, whereas by contrast the large Irish emigration came later which is perhaps why modern Americans are more likely to identify with their Irish roots.

Yes I 100% agree with you.

Phoebe Watts
08-29-2017, 06:14 PM
Yes, I think you are probably right about it being underestimated. I have also read that Welsh surnames are most common in southern states in the US so a lot of it probably came in the earlier settlement of North America, whereas by contrast the large Irish emigration came later which is perhaps why modern Americans are more likely to identify with their Irish roots.

I think it is partly earlier settlement and partly that Welsh people settled in different parts of North America in different waves. This is a recent map related to Welsh identity in the USA at /wiki/Welsh_Americans#/media/File:Welsh1346.gif

They say that waves of immigrants from Wales included farmers in the late C18th; coal miners and steel workers to Pennsylvania and Ohio, and quarrymen to New York and surrounding states. About 5,000 went to Utah in the mid C19th as well, making it one of the states with the highest proportion of Welsh descent. I think it would have been difficult for these different groups to build a shared and lasting identity.

sktibo
08-29-2017, 06:25 PM
I'm not sure who told me this, might have been sgdavies or avalon, but IIRC the Welsh didn't cling to their identities as strongly as say, the Irish did upon coming to the new world. My father and older cousins told me that my Great-Grandmother from Wales refused to speak Welsh any more after coming to Canada.. she would say "If you come to Canada, you speak English" according to them. So perhaps this cultural element of assimilating into Canadian or American culture was a difference between the Welsh and the Irish, many of whom I've met still strongly believe themselves to be Irish despite being several generations removed from the old world... and not being very Irish any more at this point!

08-29-2017, 06:57 PM
Sounds like something I might have said, I read about that sort of thing long ago, can’t remember where thou apparently they were keen to get on in their new country, and to fully take up being Americans, or wherever they ended up.
Think it was George Washington who declared "good Welshman make good Americans”. Not sure of the context of that statement.

sktibo
08-29-2017, 07:00 PM
Sounds like something I might have said, I read about that sort of thing long ago, can’t remember where thou apparently they were keen to get on in their new country, and to fully take up being Americans, or wherever they ended up.
Think it was George Washington who declared "good Welshman make good Americans”. Not sure of the context of that statement.

Some of the Welsh I've met also seem incredibly un-patriotic. I met a man from Wales once, and being a Celtophile, I couldn't resist asking him about where he came from. The exact quote I believe was "What do you want to know about Wales for lad, it's a shithole" and that was all I got out of him about it. That's something I've never heard from an Irish individual, who always mention how they miss Ireland, at least some of the time. I've never been to Wales but I doubt it's actually a "shithole"

08-29-2017, 07:15 PM
Well allot of us say something similar to that, although I am also very patriotic, Wales is naturally beautiful.... but the weather really really spoils it, and allot of it was heavily industrialized during the Industrial Revolution, and in modern times, with them industries gone, there is just a vacuum and hopelessness of the people who choose to stay, and I think it also suffers disproportionately from modern scourges of Western social problems, alcohol abuse, drugs, suicide, divorce, joblessness, hence why I am not there.

Robert1
08-29-2017, 08:08 PM
Sorry to hear that, sgdavies. My Mother's family has a lot of Welsh that settled in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania in the 1700s. Coal miners...

Phoebe Watts
08-29-2017, 11:43 PM
I'm not sure who told me this, might have been sgdavies or avalon, but IIRC the Welsh didn't cling to their identities as strongly as say, the Irish did upon coming to the new world. My father and older cousins told me that my Great-Grandmother from Wales refused to speak Welsh any more after coming to Canada.. she would say "If you come to Canada, you speak English" according to them. So perhaps this cultural element of assimilating into Canadian or American culture was a difference between the Welsh and the Irish, many of whom I've met still strongly believe themselves to be Irish despite being several generations removed from the old world... and not being very Irish any more at this point!

Difficult to generalise perhaps. Some of the early Welsh settlers in PA fought hard for Welsh settlements and there are still high levels of Welsh ancestry reported now. There were many Welsh communities in other states and plenty of examples of families retaining their language and religion for a couple of generations in other areas too.

The Welsh language was under great pressure in the C19th and was seen by many as a barrier to progress. That scenario of just stopping using Welsh, or deliberately not passing the language to the next generation, would be common families who moved within Wales or the UK. It happened where people stayed put too. But the big Irish and Scottish migrations involved speakers of their native languages too, and many of them lost their language too. The difference seems to be that the Welsh based their identity more on their language than the Irish and the Scots did.

When my research shows a relative who emigrated after the early C19th, I look for them in the Welsh language newspaper published in North America. Most of them are mentioned, if only in a death notice. Some are mentioned often as they are active in a Welsh society or chapel. Some, especially the Mormons, are not mentioned at all. I think it gives an idea of how different their experiences were in North America and how that affected their Welsh identity.

Phoebe Watts
08-29-2017, 11:48 PM
Sorry to hear that, sgdavies. My Mother's family has a lot of Welsh that settled in Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania in the 1700s. Coal miners...

That sounds quite early for coal miners Robert. And there is quite a lot written about these early settlers. I wonder whether your mother's family still remembered that Welsh ancestry or whether it is something that you have rediscovered?

Robert1
08-30-2017, 03:58 AM
That sounds quite early for coal miners Robert. And there is quite a lot written about these early settlers. I wonder whether your mother's family still remembered that Welsh ancestry or whether it is something that you have rediscovered?

Phoebe Watts, you are right, looking at my records I can't find coal mining before 1800, I just assumed it was the case.

Family records show John Edwards, my maternal side 6th great-grandfather, was born 17 NOV 1720, Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, Wales and married a woman named Helen there about 1745. I have no record when they came to the colonies other than they had come by 1770 and that John died after 14 OCT 1790 in Broad Top City, Huntingdon, Pennsylvania. This was my mother's paternal side, her maternal side also leads back to Wales and her great grandparents came to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania as a married couple around 1855.

Phoebe Watts
08-30-2017, 10:07 AM
Phoebe Watts, you are right, looking at my records I can't find coal mining before 1800, I just assumed it was the case.

Family records show John Edwards, my maternal side 6th great-grandfather, was born 17 NOV 1720, Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, Wales and married a woman named Helen there about 1745. I have no record when they came to the colonies other than they had come by 1770 and that John died after 14 OCT 1790 in Broad Top City, Huntingdon, Pennsylvania. This was my mother's paternal side, her maternal side also leads back to Wales and her great grandparents came to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania as a married couple around 1855.

Thank you, that's interesting in terms of identity. It sounds like emigration from a rural area in Wales into another rural area, in Pennsylvania; then as the Pennsylvania coal industry took off there was a later wave of settlers from a different part of Wales. I have seen mention of a Welsh chapel in Broad Top and a Welsh graveyard nearby. These later immigrants were more mobile and the lock-outs and industrial difficulties must have made many families move on.

08-30-2017, 10:26 AM
Phoebe Watts, you are right, looking at my records I can't find coal mining before 1800, I just assumed it was the case.

Family records show John Edwards, my maternal side 6th great-grandfather, was born 17 NOV 1720, Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire, Wales and married a woman named Helen there about 1745. I have no record when they came to the colonies other than they had come by 1770 and that John died after 14 OCT 1790 in Broad Top City, Huntingdon, Pennsylvania. This was my mother's paternal side, her maternal side also leads back to Wales and her great grandparents came to Huntingdon County, Pennsylvania as a married couple around 1855.

Do you know if they had Quaker connections?, I think by this date the Welsh Tract was already well established, and very old in Pen.

avalon
08-30-2017, 03:31 PM
Some of the Welsh I've met also seem incredibly un-patriotic. I met a man from Wales once, and being a Celtophile, I couldn't resist asking him about where he came from. The exact quote I believe was "What do you want to know about Wales for lad, it's a shithole" and that was all I got out of him about it. That's something I've never heard from an Irish individual, who always mention how they miss Ireland, at least some of the time. I've never been to Wales but I doubt it's actually a "shithole"

Here's an interesting analysis of Welsh identity based on the 2011 census. http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialibrary/briefings/dynamicsofdiversity/code-census-briefing-national-identity-wales.pdf

There does seem to be a general correlation between those who speak Welsh and stronger feelings of Welsh identity, though having said that the area with highest sense of Welsh identity is the South Wales Valleys where the proportion of Welsh speakers is relatively low.

I guess from my own experience of my relatives from North Wales, although many have passed on now, was that they were patriotic, but often in a quiet and unassuming way, and as Phoebe touched on, the Welsh language was how they expressed it. I'd say the Welsh are generally very patriotic, though as sg said, if life isn't great then people can be quite gloomy about where they're from.

Robert1
08-30-2017, 03:31 PM
Do you know if they had Quaker connections?, I think by this date the Welsh Tract was already well established, and very old in Pen.

Phoebe Watts and sgdavies, yes my Edwards family were Quakers. My Mother's maternal grandfather, James Richardson Edwards, was a merchant and Inn Keeper, he ran the Hotel in Broad Top City, Huntingdon, Pennsylvania then the Country Store until he retired by 1910. His daughter, my mother's mother, Alice Belle Edwards married Edward Ferdinand Manning, also of Broad Top. This Manning family came from a Quaker settlement in Quebec near another place named Huntingdon! I believe these Mannings were English but they could be Scot. My Mother was born near Broad Top City in 1923 then when her mother died young was taken in by her aunt in New Jersey. I don't think there are Edwards in Broad Top now but I did find one as a DNA match living in Philadelphia. Interesting stuff anyway!

Robert1
08-30-2017, 04:16 PM
Thank you, that's interesting in terms of identity. It sounds like emigration from a rural area in Wales into another rural area, in Pennsylvania; then as the Pennsylvania coal industry took off there was a later wave of settlers from a different part of Wales. I have seen mention of a Welsh chapel in Broad Top and a Welsh graveyard nearby. These later immigrants were more mobile and the lock-outs and industrial difficulties must have made many families move on.

I wish I knew where in Wales my mother's maternal great grandparents came from but am at a brick wall. They did come later than the Edwards but didn't keep good family records. I have seen hints of Merionethshire and Breconshire but as their surnames were Jones and Williams they get lost in time with every other person with those names. I knew it was a long shot but hoped my Full Genome MTDNA results would help, however nothing.

Robert1
08-31-2017, 12:56 AM
I must thank Phoebe Watts who looked at my Welsh ancestry and found some very important facts! First my maternal great great grandparents lived in Rumney, Monmouthshire and Glamorgan, South Wales. Second, depending where they were born this could explain the 9% South Wales that Living DNA reports for me, each 2x great grandparent could pass on up to 6% of my DNA so 9% for the two makes sense. Before this I had no idea where in Wales they came from. Thank you, Phoebe Watts! I am slowly learning!

Living DNA also reports 2.9% from North Wales and some certainly could be my 6x great grandfather from Druid's Rocks, Denbigh, Denbighshire. The more I understand Living DNA the more I like it.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
08-31-2017, 06:23 AM
Here's an interesting analysis of Welsh identity based on the 2011 census. http://www.ethnicity.ac.uk/medialibrary/briefings/dynamicsofdiversity/code-census-briefing-national-identity-wales.pdf

There does seem to be a general correlation between those who speak Welsh and stronger feelings of Welsh identity, though having said that the area with highest sense of Welsh identity is the South Wales Valleys where the proportion of Welsh speakers is relatively low.

I guess from my own experience of my relatives from North Wales, although many have passed on now, was that they were patriotic, but often in a quiet and unassuming way, and as Phoebe touched on, the Welsh language was how they expressed it. I'd say the Welsh are generally very patriotic, though as sg said, if life isn't great then people can be quite gloomy about where they're from.

My recent family history is in the valleys. I suppose everyone's perception of a place is influenced by their personal experiences. The Valleys are quite a pleasant place to live these days but like many other former industrial areas they don't have the vibrancy and opportunity they used to have but in past days it was quite a grim place to live. Many people still remember past times with fondness though even though they were hard. I'm quite happy here but I don't know if I would feel the same if I was a young person trying to get on in life.
The "Welshness" of the Valleys is a bit ironic really because there were a lot of English and Irish moved here during the Industrial Revolution, Of course the biggest impact has largely been the decline or total loss of the Welsh language. I suppose whatever your ancestry is though, you identify with a place. I think maybe the Valleys pride in "Welshness" may be more about shared and difficult experiences which fostered a sense of identity. I mean for quite a long time if you asked people from outside Wales what they knew about Wales, they would most likely come up with coal mining, rugby and male-voice choirs. John

avalon
09-03-2017, 09:00 PM
The differences in the populations in Pembrokeshire are fascinating. Some of my ancestors came from parishes very near the Landsker so I have looked at the language and cultural differences. It is interesting to see how the genetic clusters correspond.

Just going back to your cautious results again Phoebe and looking at the detailed map from POBI supplementary.

The devil, as they say, is in the detail and if you zoom in on the Pembrokeshire clusters you can see them more clearly.

Two of the clusters are more concentrated towards Northern Pembrokeshire and Southern Cardinganshire and the other three are more concentrated towards Southern Pembrokeshire so broadly speaking this clustering is reflective of the Landsker line. What might relate to your case is that one of the Pembrokeshire clusters (orange triangles) is also found close to the Welsh Borders cluster on the map and also projects near to it on diagram c, the principal component.

So, I suspect that some people in Pembrokeshire/SW Wales (orange triangles)may have ancestry that is similar to that in the Welsh Borders which might explain your cautious mode. Might be reflective of some sort of movement of people into SW Wales at some point in the past from Welsh Borders/SE Wales, or possibly in the other direction because this cluster may be present in Industrial South Wales, we just don't know though because POBI didn't sample there.

Phoebe Watts
09-03-2017, 09:25 PM
Just going back to your cautious results again Phoebe and looking at the detailed map from POBI supplementary.

The devil, as they say, is in the detail and if you zoom in on the Pembrokeshire clusters you can see them more clearly.

Two of the clusters are more concentrated towards Northern Pembrokeshire and Southern Cardinganshire and the other three are more concentrated towards Southern Pembrokeshire so broadly speaking this clustering is reflective of the Landsker line. What might relate to your case is that one of the Pembrokeshire clusters (orange triangles) is also found close to the Welsh Borders cluster on the map and also projects near to it on diagram c, the principal component.

So, I suspect that some people in Pembrokeshire/SW Wales (orange triangles)may have ancestry that is similar to that in the Welsh Borders which might explain your cautious mode. Might be reflective of some sort of movement of people into SW Wales at some point in the past from Welsh Borders/SE Wales, or possibly in the other direction because this cluster may be present in Industrial South Wales, we just don't know though because POBI didn't sample there.


Thank you Avalon. It is starting to look as if my ancestry is just too mixed even though it is almost all from one very small country.

I'm waiting for results of my father's test so that might be a more simple analysis

Phoebe Watts
09-03-2017, 10:05 PM
I'm able to post attachments now so here are the maps of standard mode and cautious mode that I described in earlier posts. This format shows the shift from South Wales and North West England (and Aberdeenshire) between the two modes. Thank you for the suggestions.


It does seem to work better for some people though. Robert drew our attention to his ancestry that shows attributions of 9% for South Wales and 2.9% for North Wales in both standard and cautious modes. He has documented ancestry from the 1600s from North Pembrokeshire and from the 1700s in North Wales. Both of these are close to the clusters on the map.

Robert also has two 2xgreat-grandparents from Wales. We found that they had emigrated from Rhymney and that one was originally from south Cardiganshire (not far from the Pembrokeshire cluster) and that the other had parents born in the parishes around Rhymney (in east Glamorgan and south Breconshire). So the research is already a reasonable fit with the DNA test - it wouldn't be surprising if the 3xgreat-grandparents in Rhymney had ancestry from further west or north.

avalon
09-04-2017, 02:22 PM
Thank you Avalon. It is starting to look as if my ancestry is just too mixed even though it is almost all from one very small country.



I think that this might be the case for a lot of us on this forum. Our own ancestry may be more mixed than the clusters that comprise the POBI/LivingDNA samples, hence people are getting unusual results, particularly in cautious mode. The real population structure of the UK is going to be much more complicated and mixed than POBI but would require thousands more samples.

In the case of Wales, we can see that sampling was good in Anglesey, SW Wales and in the Welsh Borders but limited everywhere else. Really to get super accurate genetic results they would need to replicate the POBI all over Wales, including in urban areas.

Phoebe Watts
09-08-2017, 04:07 PM
Living DNA results for my father are back earlier than expected. His known ancestry is almost all south-west Wales and the results match well in all modes.

In standard mode he has attributions to six regions with over 80% attributed to Wales or its borders; he also gets a small amount of Aberdeenshire and Ireland as many people from Wales do.

His cautious mode maps are shaded in the areas of known ancestry and neighbouring areas. And his cautious mode map indicates anything up to 85% from South Wales where mine is blank.

(There are three groups in cautious mode:
South Wales related: South Wales (52.6%); South Wales Borders (19.6%); South Central England (2.3%); and Ireland (1.4%) are brought together. The cautious group omits South Central England and includes Devon.
North Wales related: the attribution to North Wales (8.7%) is used and the wider group shown includes South Wales.
Orkney related: the group takes in the 5.7% attributed to Aberdeenshire and allocates it to Orkneys and South West Scotland/ Northern Ireland)

Robert1
09-08-2017, 06:52 PM
Great news your father's results are in, Phoebe Watts! It sounds like his results are more in line with what you expected for yourself, I hope this helps you sort out your results better than before his were available.

avalon
09-08-2017, 07:58 PM
Living DNA results for my father are back earlier than expected. His known ancestry is almost all south-west Wales and the results match well in all modes.

In standard mode he has attributions to six regions with over 80% attributed to Wales or its borders; he also gets a small amount of Aberdeenshire and Ireland as many people from Wales do.

His cautious mode maps are shaded in the areas of known ancestry and neighbouring areas. And his cautious mode map indicates anything up to 85% from South Wales where mine is blank.

(There are three groups in cautious mode:
South Wales related: South Wales (52.6%); South Wales Borders (19.6%); South Central England (2.3%); and Ireland (1.4%) are brought together. The cautious group omits South Central England and includes Devon.
North Wales related: the attribution to North Wales (8.7%) is used and the wider group shown includes South Wales.
Orkney related: the group takes in the 5.7% attributed to Aberdeenshire and allocates it to Orkneys and South West Scotland/ Northern Ireland)

Totally bizarre that you got South Wales Border related ancestry and your father got South Wales related in cautious mode!? That's a head scratcher. Does your mother have South Wales ancestry?

Maybe LivingDNA's cautious mode is still just a work in progress and they haven't quite got it right yet. There should be some sort of logic to it though. They have the data and they run it through their computer algorithm, the results should make some sort of sense, based on the data they have. But why your South Wales ancestry gets assigned to a different cautious group to your father I have no idea.

On edit: Your father does have South Wales Border ancestry though, whereas if I recall correctly, you don't in complete mode, so perhaps this is part of the explanation for your South Wales Border related in cautious mode.

Phoebe Watts
09-08-2017, 08:59 PM
Totally bizarre that you got South Wales Border related ancestry and your father got South Wales related in cautious mode!? That's a head scratcher. Does your mother have South Wales ancestry?

Maybe LivingDNA's cautious mode is still just a work in progress and they haven't quite got it right yet. There should be some sort of logic to it though. They have the data and they run it through their computer algorithm, the results should make some sort of sense, based on the data they have. But why your South Wales ancestry gets assigned to a different cautious group to your father I have no idea.

On edit: Your father does have South Wales Border ancestry though, whereas if I recall correctly, you don't in complete mode, so perhaps this is part of the explanation for your South Wales Border related in cautious mode.

When I asked Living DNA about my results I was trying to suggest that something looked quite odd but they didn't really want to know. It was just about the logic of cautious mode leaving out one of the largest and most obvious parts of the standard mode. When I asked a second time they suggested that there might be some family anomaly that I wasn't aware of. It's just as well that I have a very strong family likeness to the south Wales branch!

There is no recent south Wales ancestry on my mother's side. But my standard (and complete) mode result is now looking a little odd. If I do a simple analysis of my results against half my father's result it looks as if my father's South Wales Borders is coming up as South Central England for me. So I think you are right that the South Wales Borders attribution may be confusing things.... I hope there will be an update soon.

At least now I have access to a set of results that look better than mine across the modes.

09-09-2017, 04:12 AM
As somebody from SW Wales, could I enquirer what his YDNA, and MTDNA haplogroup results are?
Just trying to gauge how odd mine are.

Phoebe Watts
09-09-2017, 09:08 AM
As somebody from SW Wales, could I enquirer what his YDNA, and MTDNA haplogroup results are?
Just trying to gauge how odd mine are.

Yes of course:

Y-DNA is given as R-L21 / R-DF13 (I think that's common in Wales)

mtDNA is given as H1 / H1b

09-09-2017, 09:55 AM
Yes of course:

Y-DNA is given as R-L21 / R-DF13 (I think that's common in Wales)

mtDNA is given as H1 / H1b

Thank you, yes that’s quite typical for Wales.

avalon
09-10-2017, 08:17 PM
When I asked Living DNA about my results I was trying to suggest that something looked quite odd but they didn't really want to know. It was just about the logic of cautious mode leaving out one of the largest and most obvious parts of the standard mode. When I asked a second time they suggested that there might be some family anomaly that I wasn't aware of. It's just as well that I have a very strong family likeness to the south Wales branch!

There is no recent south Wales ancestry on my mother's side. But my standard (and complete) mode result is now looking a little odd. If I do a simple analysis of my results against half my father's result it looks as if my father's South Wales Borders is coming up as South Central England for me. So I think you are right that the South Wales Borders attribution may be confusing things.... I hope there will be an update soon.

At least now I have access to a set of results that look better than mine across the modes.

Yes, I also found when I contacted LIvingDNA they didn't really give me much of an answer, just a standard sort of response really. To be fair to them, they do have thousands of customers so I guess they just don't have the time or resources to give detailed responses.

The discrepencies between you and your fathers results are a bit odd. If your mother's side of the family also came from South Wales then I could understand the confusion, but if not, then you should be able to match your South Wales results through to your father's. At least the LivingDNA test has given you a high overall Welsh % so accurate in a general Welsh sense.