PDA

View Full Version : My First Ancestor In Italy Was Most Likely A Phoenician Slave?



Aradon
08-22-2017, 09:09 PM
This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

"
Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

"
L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

"Aftermath[edit]

Ruins of Carthage
Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa."


Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.

Principe
08-22-2017, 09:55 PM
This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

"
Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

"
L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

"Aftermath[edit]

Ruins of Carthage
Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa."


Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.

You shouldn't be disappointed with your results but instead very proud after all this is your lineage and the Phoenicians were one of the most influential cultures in the ancient world its a shame Rome destroyed Carthage, they might not have had a direct influence on Rome but they definitely did with the Greeks and Etruscans, they gave the alphabet to the Greeks and were one if not the Etruscans closest trading partners and allies, there is a chance that your ancestor could of been a Phoenician merchant who settled in Etruria.

Don't be too hard on yourself for this, and for the moment there is no definitive way to know unless an ancient dna sample with J-L829 appears, at the moment it looks your line is Phoenician in fact a very good candidate, instead of being a slave like I said could have been a merchant.

spruithean
08-22-2017, 10:13 PM
Anything is possible and frankly without the ancient DNA samples to back it up we can't know if J-L829 is Phoenician.

As for you feeling less Italian, please don't. You have many more Italian ancestors than the one who contributed to your Y-line. Also please understand that your ancestors saw themselves as Italian and prior to that whatever other group they may have belonged to. I can sympathize with feeling "less" of the ethnic group you know your family to be related to. I grew up knowing my Y-line came from Scotland and my paper trail supports this however with a haplogroup like I1-Z140 (more specifically/likely I1-Y1798) it seems I have some relation to the Germanic peoples of Europe. For awhile I certainly felt fairly disconnected, but I have since realized that there are countless possibilities that could have resulted in my possibly Germanic ancestor or his descendants ending up in Scotland and adopting a Scottish surname.

To quote our very own A Norfolk L-M20: (of course replace English and other English locales to Italian)


As I'm sure that you know, ethnicity is all about how you, your family, and your community both self identify, and are identified by others. Cultural, religious, ancestry, caste, class, and / or nationality. How would I be identified? Pretty clearly as white ethnic English, of local East Anglian rural working class roots. My documentary and family history genealogical trail strongly confirms that, although using it, I can reach out to a few areas of Southern England outside of East Anglia, such as on my paternal great grandfather's line to the Thames Valley of Oxfordshire. That doesn't though change my Norfolk accent, or identification with my seven other Norfolk great grandparents.

What does DNA tell me then? It can't change my ethnicity.

Autosomal DNA has proven to be a pretty useless indicator of ancestry over the past three or four hundred years. it can't identify us SE English, and can't part me from some French, Belgian, or Dutch for example. It usually sees my Britishness as only around 35%. That's because DNA for Ancestry companies exaggerate their abilities at discriminating between recent family admixture, and much older population admixture. Fine for some populations, but not so much for populations known to be admixed in late prehistory or the medieval. I suppose that one thing that auDNA tests have suggested to me, is that we SE English have a bit of a pull to France and the South, rather than to Scandinavia. It makes me ponder that.

Y-DNA, I've had a ball chasing my L-SK1414 around Western Asia, and it triggers my imagination that I had a Y ancestor that moved from Asia to Southern England sometime perhaps during the Medieval. But I can't seriously regard myself as Persian, Gedrosian, or Mesopotamian based on that can I? great for the imagination, but, even my autosomes say no Asian call. It was some time ago. Okay, it gives me a slight affinity, and new histories and prehistories to study, with a possible personal touch.

What about mtDNA? Again, I don't really feel that I'm a Copper Age Steppe Pastoralist, but sure it triggers imagination of distant mt ancestors heading westwards, outnumbered by their men.

As for Genetic Matches, My mt I'm currently waiting for full sequence results. My Y - yes, I've met some great distant Y cousins, but we are all 1,000 to 18,000 years apart! My auDNA - would you believe this weekend, I've had my first ever match, on FT-DNA FF, to an Australian priest, who has a correlating documentary family tree, showing him to be my third cousin once removed. My first DNA match! Otherwise, my family never seemed to mix with other people's! Even my Wiki-Tree is alone.

Someone asked about Harrington. No, my Margaret Harrington lived in Acle, Norfolk. She died there in 1808. Extremely unlikely to link to Somerset. Sorry, it's usually the same story :-(

I'm English. However, proud to be a member of the Global Human Family. All DNA is fascinating, but haplogroups are still FAR truer than auDNA tests for ancestry in my humble opinion.

RCO
08-23-2017, 12:10 AM
Nobody can guess about the precise social status os an ancestor 1000 or 2000 years ago. Warlords can easily produce slaveholders and then produce slaves and they can be tranformed in peaceful farmers for the next 600 years in the same rural area. We don't know how many of the existing mtDNA lines were the product of rape, slavery, serfdom or consensual marriages in the last 2000 years not to talk about more remote ages. They were lucky because they survived to the present. What we can do is to find the frequency, the location, the STR variaton, the trail of SNPs and the distribution of DNA in time and space. We can observe several ancient Sardinian J1-L829 lines and probably they are among some of the oldest "Italian" clusters already researched. As in any other ethnicity people are just trying to understand the size, variation and history of every ethnohistorical haplogroup in every society. So your ancestor could be a peaceful trader, a colonist, a mercenary, a slave, just like the ancestor of everyone here from any other haplogroup.

Sikeliot
08-23-2017, 12:46 AM
You should not be ashamed of your haplogroup. For one, many people in Sicily have Phoenician ancestry if you go back far enough. Also, Phoenicians were the first culture to have a written alphabet, and without it, the Greek alphabet would not exist. Phoenician culture significantly influenced Greek and Roman, even if they were enemies.

Additionally, I am assuming you are Christian: Phoenicians were very close to the original Jewish people, if not the same ethnicity as them. Hebrew and Phoenician were mutually intelligible, if not dialects of the same language. When you read the Bible and hear of any of the famous people within it, you can know you may be descended from people very close to them.

Aradon
08-23-2017, 11:40 PM
You shouldn't be disappointed with your results but instead very proud after all this is your lineage and the Phoenicians were one of the most influential cultures in the ancient world its a shame Rome destroyed Carthage, they might not have had a direct influence on Rome but they definitely did with the Greeks and Etruscans, they gave the alphabet to the Greeks and were one if not the Etruscans closest trading partners and allies, there is a chance that your ancestor could of been a Phoenician merchant who settled in Etruria.

Don't be too hard on yourself for this, and for the moment there is no definitive way to know unless an ancient dna sample with J-L829 appears, at the moment it looks your line is Phoenician in fact a very good candidate, instead of being a slave like I said could have been a merchant.

50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.

RCO
08-24-2017, 02:39 AM
Paolo Francalacci found several Sardinian J1-L829 3000 ybp branches, genogenea.com/J-M267/tree so I think it's very rare to find an exclusive ethnonational cluster with 3000 years in any European modern country continuously living there, so you can try to find your SNPs via NGS tests like Big Y or FGC and you probably belong to an ancient "Italian" group because it's not common to find a 3000 year old cluster living in the same region with several distinct sub-branches with that age. You have the social status of your last 500 years old ancestors and not from unknown 3000 years old ancestors :)

spruithean
08-24-2017, 09:36 PM
50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.

It's not disappointing. There is nothing you can do to change your history or ancestry. The Phoenicians are a fascinating people and part of the patchwork that contributed to the history of the Mediterranean and their influence extends much beyond even that. Even if your ancestor was a Phoenician who was taken as a slave, obviously his descendants did not remain as slaves and overtime through intermarriage with the local population became Roman and later Italian. I certainly know how you feel about your paternal line not "fitting" properly with what you anticipated. What our ancestors saw themselves 1000s of years ago is not the same as how they saw themselves 300 or even 100 years ago.


Paolo Francalacci found several Sardinian J1-L829 3000 ybp branches, genogenea.com/J-M267/tree so I think it's very rare to find an exclusive ethnonational cluster with 3000 years in any European modern country continuously living there, so you can try to find your SNPs via NGS tests like Big Y or FGC and you probably belong to an ancient "Italian" group because it's not common to find a 3000 year old cluster living in the same region with several distinct sub-branches with that age. You have the social status of your last 500 years old ancestors and not from unknown 3000 years old ancestors :)

I echo everything RCO has said here. Anything is possible and frankly we're dealing with haplogroups here, which often predate "ethnic" groups or what we in our modern view see as ethnic groups.

wandering_amorite
08-24-2017, 09:48 PM
50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.

No avoiding this conclusion? People here have outlined many alternate possibilities. DNA can't tell you anything about a particular ancestor's social standing.

Principe
08-24-2017, 10:18 PM
50,000 Phoenicians enslaved after Carthage destroyed with the rest of the population exterminated, I doubt he was a merchant, doubt there was ever even close to 50,000 Phoenicians living in Italy, due to the numbers, the strongest possibility is he was a slave. The Merchant possibility is highly unlikely and it looks like I am at a brick wall, there is no avoiding this conclusion, my first ancestor in Italy was Phoenician and most likely a slave. Such disappointing results, J1 is only 3% in Italy over all and I could not get J2 or a Euro variant of J1, I just had to get this Phoenician marker. The fact that it is present in Lebanon is further proof since Lebanese have significant Phoenician ancestry.

I need to find out the J1e subtypes in Tuscany, desperately hoping there is a possibility that my first ancestor could be Etruscan or maybe Greek but I don't think I will ever find out in my life, the strongest possibility is Phoenician. J-L829 has been found in Malta and Sardinia but the Phoenicians did occupy most of Sardinia for a long time. Don't know if J-L829 has been found in Greece but the sample on Eupedia shows J/J1 is 3% in Greece overall.

Phoenicians had much earlier contact with the Italian peninsula than the slaves of the Carthage. The TMRCA of J-L829 suggests that it came earlier into Europe roughly around the time that the Phoenicians were their prime with their vast trading network. There was 3 Phoenician colonies in Sicily and a known Phoenician quarter on the island of Ischia, Phoenicians very likely lived in the Etruscan and Greek cities in Italy, and as you said also Sardegna had Phoenician colonies and was later controlled by Carthage. If the TMRCA of J-L829 was around 2200 ybp than I would say its more likely that your ancestor was a slave, I would really reconsider the merchant possibility because it looks very considering the TMRCA. It isn't a disappointing result at all, I would suggest reading up on the history of the Phoenicians and the vital role they played in human history. Your line could be older in Italy than the Greek colonization, as I see this is a concern to you, like I said before dont be too hard on yourself. J1 in the South is anywhere from 5-8%, even majority of J2 is Middle Eastern technically as the real migration of J2 in Europe would have started sometime in the Middle-Late Bronze Age, and p.s. Lebanon has more J2 than J1.

Even the Etruscans themselves are very likely (for me 100%) Middle Eastern in origin, their language, religion and some of the Y we see in Tuscany show that the Etruscans at one point originally lived somewhere in Eastern Turkey and had close ties with the Semitic world based on some key loan words. There is the possibility that your line could have been Etruscan. I doubt Greek, where is your paternal side from in Italy?

Tz85
08-24-2017, 10:23 PM
My guess is Phoenicians were a E-M35 clade, rather than J.

Principe
08-24-2017, 10:27 PM
My guess is Phoenicians were a E-M35 clade, rather than J.

Its more likely they were mix of a couple lineages, such as E-M123, J1, J2a, J2b and T, plus did you miss the the Bronze Age Sidon paper? That had a J2b-M205 and J1-FGC11?

JerryS.
08-24-2017, 10:35 PM
heck, I think I read somewhere that the I1 Y haplogroups (Male Scandinavian?) could be found in Sicily, so why not yours?

Agamemnon
08-24-2017, 11:02 PM
I can understand why you are taken aback by your paternal lineage, this probably isn't what you expected considering your ethnic background... And yet, that kind of self-loathing attitude only serves to demean you. As others have already told you, this is your DNA and it isn't going to change anytime soon, you therefore have to surmount the initial shock and learn to accept what you have now discovered. In order to accomplish this, it would be helpful not to dwell on a dramatised version of events, the possibilities are numerous and an arrival with Punic or Carthaginian slaves does not exactly strike me as a convincing one, even an arrival with Hannibal's army would make more sense than this, in turn it is equally likely that your paternal ancestors arrived in Tuscany from another part of Italy (presumably Southern Italy) long after Carthage's destruction. The only way to uncover an answer is by digging deeper so to speak, and finding your precise cluster under L829 in the process.

As for the Phoenicians and their Carthaginian descendants, I find your judgement unusually harsh and largely uncalled for. I mean no offense to the Italians amongst us (unlike what has been claimed elsewhere, I hold the Italians in very high esteem) but Rome was a mere village back when the Phoenician city-states had already established a complex civilisation which influences us to this very day (look no further than the name of our current writing system: alphabet, two Canaanite/Phoenician words) and were colonising the shores of the Mediterranean, in turn Rome was a typically small entity competing with neighbouring kingdoms for the domination of the Italian peninsula back when Carthage already was a superpower. There's a reason why the expression Hannibal ad portas even exists, namely because he came dangerously close to thoroughly snuffing the young Roman republic out of existence, this is so true that a slew of alternative history books deal with the possible eradication of Rome at Hannibal's hands. Finally, the Carthaginians did, in fact, benefit Rome in many ways. Rome learned the art of empire on Carthage's ashes, the Roman empire as we know it never would've existed had it not absorbed the economic, political and naval know-how of the empire that nearly broke Rome's back. They also contributed in other, more subtle ways, think of the Severan dynasty for instance, which was of Libyo-Phoenician origin.

I will conclude this post by reminding you all that there seems to have been a Phoenician presence in Etruria long before the Punic Wars, indeed the Pyrgi tablets (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrgi_Tablets) (a set of three golden leaves bearing a bilingual Phoenician-Etruscan inscription which has been decisive in enhancing the general decipherment and comprehension of the Etruscan language) speak of a temple of Ashtart offered by a certain Tiberius Velianas who ruled over the Etruscan city of Caisra. In other words, we have a bilingual Phoenician-Etruscan text which speaks of a temple probably located in Etruria that was dedicated to a Phoenician goddess (who, I might add, was widely worshipped in Sidon, which is also where one of the L829 cases from Lebanon is found). So it isn't at all clear that your ancestors arrived with Phoenician slaves, like I said, the possibilities are legion.

wandering_amorite
08-24-2017, 11:56 PM
Its more likely they were mix of a couple lineages, such as E-M123, J1, J2a, J2b and T, plus did you miss the the Bronze Age Sidon paper? That had a J2b-M205 and J1-FGC11?

E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.

Agamemnon
08-24-2017, 11:57 PM
E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.

Yes, but it would be unwise to assume that E-M123 has always been rare in Lebanon and Syria.

kostoffj
08-25-2017, 01:03 AM
It'll be ok, Aradon. It was a long time ago, and a lot of Italians in your bloodline between then and now. Saluti.

Aradon
08-25-2017, 04:00 AM
Phoenicians had much earlier contact with the Italian peninsula than the slaves of the Carthage. The TMRCA of J-L829 suggests that it came earlier into Europe roughly around the time that the Phoenicians were their prime with their vast trading network. There was 3 Phoenician colonies in Sicily and a known Phoenician quarter on the island of Ischia, Phoenicians very likely lived in the Etruscan and Greek cities in Italy, and as you said also Sardegna had Phoenician colonies and was later controlled by Carthage. If the TMRCA of J-L829 was around 2200 ybp than I would say its more likely that your ancestor was a slave, I would really reconsider the merchant possibility because it looks very considering the TMRCA. It isn't a disappointing result at all, I would suggest reading up on the history of the Phoenicians and the vital role they played in human history. Your line could be older in Italy than the Greek colonization, as I see this is a concern to you, like I said before dont be too hard on yourself. J1 in the South is anywhere from 5-8%, even majority of J2 is Middle Eastern technically as the real migration of J2 in Europe would have started sometime in the Middle-Late Bronze Age, and p.s. Lebanon has more J2 than J1.

Even the Etruscans themselves are very likely (for me 100%) Middle Eastern in origin, their language, religion and some of the Y we see in Tuscany show that the Etruscans at one point originally lived somewhere in Eastern Turkey and had close ties with the Semitic world based on some key loan words. There is the possibility that your line could have been Etruscan. I doubt Greek, where is your paternal side from in Italy?

They are from Vallelonga in Calabria. I just really wanted him to be Etruscan then, I don't care if they are middleeastern in origin because Etruscans had a large part in Romes development, even though they owned the Romans for a while and had conflicts with them, eventually they were absorbed into the Roman Republic and had direct influence on developing Rome itself when they oppressed and ruled the Romans with the Etruscan kings of Rome.

Is there any way to find out the most common ancestor of J-L829? Looking at the J1 tree on eupedia, the ancestor of J-L829 is J-L858 and it says 5000 years before present.

Still , there is no way I can know for certain if he was a slave or not but it looks like him being Greek or a Neolithic Remnant possibility is out the window, I doubt he was etruscan to. He was a Phoenician non-Italian, I doubt Phoenicians were ever looked upon positively in Ancient Italy, it really angers me how I could such a rare clade, not even a European variant of J1 but European or not doesn't bother me, if he was Etruscan I would be happy but he most likely isn't.

Anything I can do to find out more? Buy some SNP service thing?

Batroun
08-25-2017, 04:16 AM
I was surprised to see that I received J1 as well, I thought I would be of J2 lineage which is typical of most Lebanese and East Med people, however one shouldn't be disappointed. Honestly Paternal lineages don't mean much, it's just how science is. Imo its the admixture that's the most interesting and plays a bigger "role" in identity. Italians of various groups might have been indifferent to how they viewed the Phoenicians. They traded with them and exchanged ideas. Let's not forget though the Etruscans and the Carthaginian-Phoenicians were allied to each other against the Greeks(battle of alaila) and later on the Romans.

Anyways, a question for all, how does one find out which subclade they belong to?

wandering_amorite
08-25-2017, 08:30 AM
I was surprised to see that I received J1 as well, I thought I would be of J2 lineage which is typical of most Lebanese and East Med people, however one shouldn't be disappointed. Honestly Paternal lineages don't mean much, it's just how science is. Imo its the admixture that's the most interesting and plays a bigger "role" in identity. Italians of various groups might have been indifferent to how they viewed the Phoenicians. They traded with them and exchanged ideas. Let's not forget though the Etruscans and the Carthaginian-Phoenicians were allied to each other against the Greeks(battle of alaila) and later on the Romans.

Anyways, a question for all, how does one find out which subclade they belong to?

The good news for you is, contra Nassim Taleb, we now know with certainty that J1 was around in Phoenicia as early as the Middle Bronze Age, and probably earlier. Coastal Levantines have less J1 than do Bedouins, and more J2, but doesn't make J1 any less of an "authentic Canaanite marker".

I first got my Y-haplogroup tested with DNA Heritage (is that what it was called?) when I was 13, when I still believed in the biblical Table of Nations, and in some form of ethnonational essentialism. I was hoping to be J1, or at least J2, and ended up with what I thought of as "Hamitic" E3b3, which disappointed me. But making sense of it helped me gain a better understanding of Middle Eastern population dynamics, and in some way contributed to me giving up Genesis.

There's something to be proud of in all lineages. For me, it's that mine was around in Canaan before the Copper/Early Bronze Age Mesopotamians/Caucasians/Iranians came, and that might be associated with the spread of Proto-Semitic. Plus the affinity with Africa.

Berengar
08-25-2017, 09:10 AM
As an ethnic German citizen of Hungary your disappointment amuses me. Sure we all have a theory of our ancestry (of course I expexted myself to be R1b rather than J1 - zs3128), but finding out anything about the actual truth should rather be fascinating for you as well. Self identity is a difficult construct, and sure these results might challange it, but being Italian being "Roman" (whatever it might mean) are overrated constructions of national identity. I'd propose rather to think about, and define your ancestral identity, without the half thruths and deceptions of politically constructed ones.

And if nothing else: dozens of generations lie between you and your ancestor with thousands contributing to who you are and how you look right now.. What would it change to belong to R or any other haplogroup?

Sikeliot
08-25-2017, 11:26 AM
As an ethnic German citizen of Hungary your disappointment amuses me. Sure we all have a theory of our ancestry (of course I expexted myself to be R1b rather than J1 - zs3128), but finding out anything about the actual truth should rather be fascinating for you as well. Self identity is a difficult construct, and sure these results might challange it, but being Italian being "Roman" (whatever it might mean) are overrated constructions of national identity. I'd propose rather to think about, and define your ancestral identity, without the half thruths and deceptions of politically constructed ones.

And if nothing else: dozens of generations lie between you and your ancestor with thousands contributing to who you are and how you look right now.. What would it change to belong to R or any other haplogroup?


I agree and personally I take issue with the notion of Italian being defined as Roman. Romans never displaced the natives of any part of Italy. North Italians were traditionally Gauls, and southern Italy was a melting pot of people from all over Southern Europe, the Middle East, and Anatolia. Why should we all just have to be "Roman"?

Agamemnon
08-25-2017, 01:25 PM
They are from Vallelonga in Calabria. I just really wanted him to be Etruscan then, I don't care if they are middleeastern in origin because Etruscans had a large part in Romes development, even though they owned the Romans for a while and had conflicts with them, eventually they were absorbed into the Roman Republic and had direct influence on developing Rome itself when they oppressed and ruled the Romans with the Etruscan kings of Rome.

Why didn't you tell us earlier? I was under the impression your ancestors came from Tuscany. Your results are anything but unusual, as J1 is far more common in the south than the north. Furthermore, there is another J1-L829 case from the province of Reggio Calabria, this individual is part of the Muscat cluster under PF4852 and is related to another individual from Malta who also bears the same surname (Muscat). None of this changes the fact that L829 arrived in all likelihood with the Phoenicians.


Is there any way to find out the most common ancestor of J-L829? Looking at the J1 tree on eupedia, the ancestor of J-L829 is J-L858 and it says 5000 years before present.

L829's TMRCA is around 3,000 years old, this corresponds neatly with the expansion of Phoenician colonists throughout the Mediterranean.


Still , there is no way I can know for certain if he was a slave or not but it looks like him being Greek or a Neolithic Remnant possibility is out the window, I doubt he was etruscan to. He was a Phoenician non-Italian, I doubt Phoenicians were ever looked upon positively in Ancient Italy, it really angers me how I could such a rare clade, not even a European variant of J1 but European or not doesn't bother me, if he was Etruscan I would be happy but he most likely isn't.

J1 is unlikely to have been a major Greek marker, much less a prominent one during the Neolithic period in Europe, and I'm not even talking about L829 which most assuredly is a typically SW Asian branch of J1-L858 associated with Semitic-speaking populations (like most branches of J1-L862 for that matter). You make it sound as if Ancient Italy was some sort of monolith, the truth is that pre-Roman Italy was a very diverse place (in many ways, it still is), the Campanians, Samnites, Bruttii, Lucani, Cisalpine Gauls and Italiotes all ganged up on Rome with Hannibal for example, just read about the Pyrgi tablets I mentionned earlier, we know of at least one temple dedicated to a Phoenician deity in the Etruscan city of Caisra, that's hardly what I'd describe as animosity. Either way I really don't know why you're so obsessed with the Etruscans, they weren't anywhere near Calabria, if anything you're bound to have a lot of Greek ancestry instead.


Anything I can do to find out more? Buy some SNP service thing?

Test with FTDNA and join the J1 project, or test with Full Genomes Corp.

Aradon
08-25-2017, 02:03 PM
Why didn't you tell us earlier? I was under the impression your ancestors came from Tuscany. Your results are anything but unusual, as J1 is far more common in the south than the north. Furthermore, there is another J1-L829 case from the province of Reggio Calabria, this individual is part of the Muscat cluster under PF4852 and is related to another individual from Malta who also bears the same surname (Muscat). None of this changes the fact that L829 arrived in all likelihood with the Phoenicians.



L829's TMRCA is around 3,000 years old, this corresponds neatly with the expansion of Phoenician colonists throughout the Mediterranean.



J1 is unlikely to have been a major Greek marker, much less a prominent one during the Neolithic period in Europe, and I'm not even talking about L829 which most assuredly is a typically SW Asian branch of J1-L858 associated with Semitic-speaking populations (like most branches of J1-L862 for that matter). You make it sound as if Ancient Italy was some sort of monolith, the truth is that pre-Roman Italy was a very diverse place (in many ways, it still is), the Campanians, Samnites, Bruttii, Lucani, Cisalpine Gauls and Italiotes all ganged up on Rome with Hannibal for example, just read about the Pyrgi tablets I mentionned earlier, we know of at least one temple dedicated to a Phoenician deity in the Etruscan city of Caisra, that's hardly what I'd describe as animosity. Either way I really don't know why you're so obsessed with the Etruscans, they weren't anywhere near Calabria, if anything you're bound to have a lot of Greek ancestry instead.



Test with FTDNA and join the J1 project, or test with Full Genomes Corp.

It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only true Roma were those from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.

spruithean
08-25-2017, 02:20 PM
It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only the only true Roman was tthose from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.

You make it sound like it's the worst thing in the world to have this haplogroup. It is what it is. Perhaps your distant paternal ancestor was a Phoenician who settled in the southern colonies of the Phoenician trade network and his descendants made their way to Calabria. Genetic testing will always reveal surprises in one way or another and it's healthier to overcome and embrace these surprises and try to learn more.

Why are you so bent on the idea that your ancestor was a slave? Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't there is no way of knowing his social standing. There is just as much a chance that he was a merchent, leader, warrior, slave, peasant or what have you.

Everything Agamemnon is saying is spot on and filled with a good dose of information from which you can do further research.

Agamemnon
08-25-2017, 02:29 PM
It is pointless, he was most likely a Phoenician slave, it doesn't matter, the Cultures of the Mediterranean were inter-connected but the non-Eurpoean ones were always major enemies. Italy was united under the Roman Republic which was united against the Phoenicians, of course there was a lot of war to unite Italy and the only the only true Roman was tthose from Lazio or Rome itself. All the Cultures in Italy were similar at the time, not a foreign North African one like Phoenicia. Doubt there would ever be a way for me to find out if he was a slave or not. It is just frustrating not being certain, I wish I was J2 or at least a European variant of J1, then I would have no doubt on who my first ancestor was because he would most likely not have been a slave.

Why did you open this thread? I mean, if you're not going to bother with what we tell you and keep repeating the same platitudes, it would've been better for you to remain on The Apricity (where "Euros vs non-Euros" is a valid starting point when discussing history). I sincerely fail to see the purpose of this thread, unless you're just trying to troll, in which case I very much doubt the mods will tolerate that kind of behaviour.


Why are you so bent on the idea that your ancestor was a slave? Perhaps he was, perhaps he wasn't there is no way of knowing his social standing. There is just as much a chance that he was a merchent, leader, warrior, slave, peasant or what have you.

I strongly suspect he's from The Apricity, an "anthroboard" where everything "non-European" is automatically associated with slavery, inferiority and what have you.

Aradon
08-25-2017, 09:25 PM
Why did you open this thread? I mean, if you're not going to bother with what we tell you and keep repeating the same platitudes, it would've been better for you to remain on The Apricity (where "Euros vs non-Euros" is a valid starting point when discussing history). I sincerely fail to see the purpose of this thread, unless you're just trying to troll, in which case I very much doubt the mods will tolerate that kind of behaviour.



I strongly suspect he's from The Apricity, an "anthroboard" where everything "non-European" is automatically associated with slavery, inferiority and what have you.

I opened this thread because I think this is the most serious site for ancestral genetics which has the most experts.

I am not trying to troll, this is really my haplogroup. The main reason I am disappointed is because I am half Italian, Ancient Greeks, Etruscans, Italics/Latins in Lazio all had presence in developing mainland Italy and Greek/Etruscan/Roman Itallic Culture defined the Roman Republic/Empire, this is why I wanted my first ancestor to be one of these groups. I am simply bent on believing my first ancestor was a slave because 50,000 Carthaginians were enslaved after the Romans destroyed Carthage, the rest of the population was exterminated. The high numbers convinces me that he was probably a slave, I simply doubt there was even close to 50,000 colonists from Phoenicia in Ancient Italy on the mainland but perhaps there was more than 50,000 in Sicily.

Do you think there were more than 50,000 Phoenician colonists in mainland Sicily back then? Perhaps if any J-L829 is found in Sicily then I can compare my haplogroup, are there any sub-markers that would determine if it is the same one? I am not a ancestral genetics expert but I think I would need a SNP analysis or something.

Also, J-L829 was in Italy before the destruction of Carthage right? I am pretty sure it was so perhaps that makes it for certain that he wasn't a slave. He was probably a Phoenician man who was living in Sicily, the Phoenicians in Sicily conquered by the Roman Republic probably assimilated, perhaps he was a Merchant who migrated to Calabria during the Roman Republic. That is a better outcome but still, I feel less Italian because by comparison, Phoenician Culture is very foreign and alien to the Itallic Roman/Etruscan and Greek Cultures. Even if he was a Merchant, he was probably discriminated against and seen as a foreigner.

Don't some genetic testing sites have a map of your lineage? Like where your Y-DNA male ancestors all went to, like a line showing it all. Doubt I can find out with that since it probably isn't accurate.

spruithean
08-25-2017, 10:24 PM
I believe you may be referencing something like this? https://www.familytreedna.com/learn/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/Y_Map_12_17_2015.png

You need to stop making assumptions about this possible ancestor and how he was treated as it cannot be known what his social status was. We can theorize and ponder various possibilities but in the end it doesn't result in any definite facts. It is fun to theorize though and I am guilty of it myself with my Y-line.

Please be aware that you are still "half Italian" as you have hundreds more Italian ancestors than just the one man who contributed to your Y-DNA. You share very little in common with this man at this point anyway.

Perhaps looking at the Mediterranean region as a highway for movement it might be easier to see how people of various groups were in contact with each other which eventually can lead to genetic similarities and "cross-pollenization" between ethnic groups.

Principe
08-26-2017, 03:20 AM
I was surprised to see that I received J1 as well, I thought I would be of J2 lineage which is typical of most Lebanese and East Med people, however one shouldn't be disappointed. Honestly Paternal lineages don't mean much, it's just how science is. Imo its the admixture that's the most interesting and plays a bigger "role" in identity. Italians of various groups might have been indifferent to how they viewed the Phoenicians. They traded with them and exchanged ideas. Let's not forget though the Etruscans and the Carthaginian-Phoenicians were allied to each other against the Greeks(battle of alaila) and later on the Romans.

Anyways, a question for all, how does one find out which subclade they belong to?

Have you tested with ftdna? If you have, right now they have specials if you want the best test to see the detailed results of your Y line I would suggest Big Y, it is quite expensive, but like I said in another thread it's an investment, if your just looking to see what subclade you belong too, I would suggest an J1 snp pack, hope this helps!

Principe
08-26-2017, 03:26 AM
They are from Vallelonga in Calabria. I just really wanted him to be Etruscan then, I don't care if they are middleeastern in origin because Etruscans had a large part in Romes development, even though they owned the Romans for a while and had conflicts with them, eventually they were absorbed into the Roman Republic and had direct influence on developing Rome itself when they oppressed and ruled the Romans with the Etruscan kings of Rome.

Is there any way to find out the most common ancestor of J-L829? Looking at the J1 tree on eupedia, the ancestor of J-L829 is J-L858 and it says 5000 years before present.

Still , there is no way I can know for certain if he was a slave or not but it looks like him being Greek or a Neolithic Remnant possibility is out the window, I doubt he was etruscan to. He was a Phoenician non-Italian, I doubt Phoenicians were ever looked upon positively in Ancient Italy, it really angers me how I could such a rare clade, not even a European variant of J1 but European or not doesn't bother me, if he was Etruscan I would be happy but he most likely isn't.

Anything I can do to find out more? Buy some SNP service thing?

To your last question, since there is no new subclades under J-L829 the only possible way to go is Big Y for you, as I answered Batroun it is an investment.

I can't tell you anymore, I offered my opinion to you, its your choice to take or leave it, as many others here offered very similar advice, its better not to be stubborn about your results but instead be happy, having a Phoenician ancestor is actually a very good thing in my opinion. Seriously speaking the Romans were pretty savage and had barely any impact on Southern Italian DNA.

Berengar
08-26-2017, 06:43 PM
I'm afraid you're over simplifying history and human populations of which the historical political entities emerged. Apart from the very important question of how trustworthy are certain Roman histories regarding the actual events took place after the defeat of Carthage, you should also consider that the People of Carthagian Empire or Phoenicians that is, are not equal the population of a single city in North Africa. Should I Point to the fact that obviously it is in any sane Empire's interest to maintain production of goods on a conquered land to extract wealth on a much bigger scale, rather than just plundering and burning everything to ashes.

Pegasusphm1
08-31-2017, 07:47 AM
Second Italian flustered similar Semitic results. There is a thread over at FTDNA of a fellow who is PF4869. He was very upset, they had to shut him down.

Pegasusphm1
08-31-2017, 08:06 AM
You should not be ashamed of your haplogroup. For one, many people in Sicily have Phoenician ancestry if you go back far enough. Also, Phoenicians were the first culture to have a written alphabet, and without it, the Greek alphabet would not exist. Phoenician culture significantly influenced Greek and Roman, even if they were enemies.

Additionally, I am assuming you are Christian: Phoenicians were very close to the original Jewish people, if not the same ethnicity as them. Hebrew and Phoenician were mutually intelligible, if not dialects of the same language. When you read the Bible and hear of any of the famous people within it, you can know you may be descended from people very close to them.

They shared sailors, and navigational information between their fleets, transfer of technology based on Biblical accounts.

Aradon
08-31-2017, 07:47 PM
I'm afraid you're over simplifying history and human populations of which the historical political entities emerged. Apart from the very important question of how trustworthy are certain Roman histories regarding the actual events took place after the defeat of Carthage, you should also consider that the People of Carthagian Empire or Phoenicians that is, are not equal the population of a single city in North Africa. Should I Point to the fact that obviously it is in any sane Empire's interest to maintain production of goods on a conquered land to extract wealth on a much bigger scale, rather than just plundering and burning everything to ashes.

They didn't seem like an Empire in it's early period, more like some economic merchants who founded colonies but I suppose they had to take land from the native Berbers in North Africa, still the places they settled were probably not populated. They were like an Economic Empire and not one who conquered anyone but I suppose they did take land from native North Africans. Ancient Carthage from 814BC-215BC was more militaristic but they depended a lot on mercenaries, further proof that the Phoenicians themselves were an economic empire and had a skilled navy for war but I don't think they had many trained soldiers or a deep military soldiering tradition.

Aradon
08-31-2017, 07:50 PM
They shared sailors, and navigational information between their fleets, transfer of technology based on Biblical accounts.

I think the Roman Republic Italians originally back engineered Phoenician ships, the Roman Itallic people were not skilled sailers until after their wars with Carthage, they back engineered their ships and recruited Greek sailer's for their navy from their conquests in Greece.

Aradon
08-31-2017, 07:51 PM
Second Italian flustered similar Semitic results. There is a thread over at FTDNA of a fellow who is PF4869. He was very upset, they had to shut him down.

Can you please link this thread? Or private message me it? (If you are not allowed to link other forums here, I know Athrogenica is definitely not a forum that tolerates trolls or broken rules)

spruithean
08-31-2017, 09:00 PM
I seem to recall that thread, it was a trainwreck and the OP in it was quite clearly someone who wasn't open to anything that could possibly shatter his identity.

Nive1526
09-01-2017, 10:35 AM
I'm not allowed to post links yet but I guess you can fuse it together.
This might be the thread on the FTDNA forum.

/showthread.php?t=39847

Sikeliot
09-01-2017, 11:04 AM
Second Italian flustered similar Semitic results. There is a thread over at FTDNA of a fellow who is PF4869. He was very upset, they had to shut him down.

Do you know which region of Italy his ancestry was from?

I am very surprised many people do not know they will have Middle Eastern ancestry. I post in a Facebook group for Sicilians studying our genealogy and the vast majority of people in the group expected and are proud of it.

Aradon
09-01-2017, 11:14 PM
Do you know which region of Italy his ancestry was from?

I am very surprised many people do not know they will have Middle Eastern ancestry. I post in a Facebook group for Sicilians studying our genealogy and the vast majority of people in the group expected and are proud of it.

But don't all Europeans have significant middle eastern ancestry? (significant as in more than 25%) I know the most populous dominant European ethnic groups supposedly have significant amounts of it.

It won't let me post links so I put it in tinyurl. It has the admixture components of various European ethnic groups.

tinyurl com/admixture14 The English have 35-40% Neolithic admixture. Still, on various admixture calculators I don't think English would score this high on admixture components that can be interpreted as coming from the middle east/north africa.

JerryS.
09-01-2017, 11:30 PM
I don't know whats the big deal..... my Italian relative presumably came from a family that immigrate from the Balkans...

Pegasusphm1
09-03-2017, 03:08 AM
OK will do.. I need to search for it.. Yes you both PF4869. You might need to contact one of the admins to reach this person. They shut him down on the FTDNA forum.

Aradon
09-06-2017, 07:18 AM
Why didn't you tell us earlier? I was under the impression your ancestors came from Tuscany. Your results are anything but unusual, as J1 is far more common in the south than the north. Furthermore, there is another J1-L829 case from the province of Reggio Calabria, this individual is part of the Muscat cluster under PF4852 and is related to another individual from Malta who also bears the same surname (Muscat). None of this changes the fact that L829 arrived in all likelihood with the Phoenicians.



L829's TMRCA is around 3,000 years old, this corresponds neatly with the expansion of Phoenician colonists throughout the Mediterranean.



J1 is unlikely to have been a major Greek marker, much less a prominent one during the Neolithic period in Europe, and I'm not even talking about L829 which most assuredly is a typically SW Asian branch of J1-L858 associated with Semitic-speaking populations (like most branches of J1-L862 for that matter). You make it sound as if Ancient Italy was some sort of monolith, the truth is that pre-Roman Italy was a very diverse place (in many ways, it still is), the Campanians, Samnites, Bruttii, Lucani, Cisalpine Gauls and Italiotes all ganged up on Rome with Hannibal for example, just read about the Pyrgi tablets I mentionned earlier, we know of at least one temple dedicated to a Phoenician deity in the Etruscan city of Caisra, that's hardly what I'd describe as animosity. Either way I really don't know why you're so obsessed with the Etruscans, they weren't anywhere near Calabria, if anything you're bound to have a lot of Greek ancestry instead.



Test with FTDNA and join the J1 project, or test with Full Genomes Corp.

So because it corresponds with colonists, this could mean he might not have been a slave. Still, they probably settled the most in Carthage since Carthage became an Empire. Finding if people in the area of the Carthage Tunis metro area would be useless when the Romans killed everyone in Carthage and enslaved the remaining 15,000. No lineage left to continue so not J-L829 would be found with modern inhabitants. Actually, maybe it would be worth looking at, there was most likely Phonetician colonists living outside of Carthage.

El Greco
09-16-2017, 02:19 PM
Hello everyone. I think I'm in the right place. I tested the Y chromosome of 24 markers and say that I'm a haplogroup J1 P58. Predictor Nevgen predicted PF4869 a likelihood of 96%. Can anyone tell me anything about the origin of this subgroup. Haplotype and other information about yourself can only be sent by private message. My English is not good, so I use a google translator.

RCO
09-16-2017, 07:52 PM
What is your nationality and where did you test ? How many matches ?

El Greco
09-16-2017, 08:13 PM
I am a Serb from Republika Srpska, Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was tested in Belgrade within the Serbian DNA project. In Nevgen I have a fitting of 44.88.

Batroun
09-16-2017, 08:20 PM
We have the same haplogroup! B)

El Greco
09-16-2017, 08:31 PM
You mean a haplogroup, not a subgroup, because I'm not sure about PF4869, and for J1 P58 I'm sure.

Agamemnon
09-16-2017, 10:05 PM
So because it corresponds with colonists, this could mean he might not have been a slave. Still, they probably settled the most in Carthage since Carthage became an Empire. Finding if people in the area of the Carthage Tunis metro area would be useless when the Romans killed everyone in Carthage and enslaved the remaining 15,000. No lineage left to continue so not J-L829 would be found with modern inhabitants. Actually, maybe it would be worth looking at, there was most likely Phonetician colonists living outside of Carthage.

I very much doubt your ancestor was a slave, that's not to say none of your ancestors were slaves (we probably all have slaves in our family tree at some point in time), in this particular case however slavery does not strike me as a good explanation as slaves were way down the "reproductive food chain" so to speak. Your paternal line comes from Calabria, a region that was in constant contact with the Near East since the Bronze Age at the very least, Calabrians also happen to be the most Near Eastern-shifted Italians by a very long shot. Nothing unusual about your results if we take the above into account.


Hello everyone. I think I'm in the right place. I tested the Y chromosome of 24 markers and say that I'm a haplogroup J1 P58. Predictor Nevgen predicted PF4869 a likelihood of 96%. Can anyone tell me anything about the origin of this subgroup. Haplotype and other information about yourself can only be sent by private message. My English is not good, so I use a google translator.

PF4869 is just upstream from L829 (in other words, L829 is a descendant of PF4869), its TMRCA is ~4,000 years old. It is found in Lebanon and Syria as well as in Armenia, Turkey, Greece, Italy and the Arabian peninsula (Yemen, Oman and Qatar). Its distribution is somewhat suggestive of an association with the Phoenicians as well as other NW Semitic-speaking peoples.


We have the same haplogroup! B)

PF4678 is an L829 equivalent IIRC.

El Greco
09-17-2017, 07:00 AM
My tradition says that my ancestor came from Greece, through Dubrovnik, about 16 centuries or earlier. I am interested in your opinion on this migration, and I also do not know if my ancestors are Jews, Phoenicians, Greeks, Arabs, Ilineks others.

Agamemnon
09-17-2017, 06:30 PM
PF4678 is an L829 equivalent IIRC.

My bad this is a Z1865 equivalent.


My tradition says that my ancestor came from Greece, through Dubrovnik, about 16 centuries or earlier. I am interested in your opinion on this migration, and I also do not know if my ancestors are Jews, Phoenicians, Greeks, Arabs, Ilineks others.

Only further testing will enable you to answer that question. That being said, if your paternal ancestors came from Greece a Levantine (Phoenician or Jewish) origin is somewhat more likely.

Sikeliot
09-17-2017, 07:21 PM
Calabrians also happen to be the most Near Eastern-shifted Italians by a very long shot.

From a genetic point of view, they're basically like Cypriots (they are more genetically outlying than Cretans or Sicilians). It could be either because of a large assimilated Jewish population there in the last 1000 years, or because unlike other places there has been little Norman, Lombard, or Slavic influence.

JerryS.
09-17-2017, 09:15 PM
From a genetic point of view, they're basically like Cypriots (they are more genetically outlying than Cretans or Sicilians). It could be either because of a large assimilated Jewish population there in the last 1000 years, or because unlike other places there has been little Norman, Lombard, or Slavic influence.

wasn't this region also greatly impacted by the influx of Balkan immigrants during the Ottoman invasions?

Sikeliot
09-17-2017, 09:41 PM
wasn't this region also greatly impacted by the influx of Balkan immigrants during the Ottoman invasions?

No. Little Balkan autosomal input. You're thinking of Apulia.

JerryS.
09-17-2017, 09:45 PM
No. Little Balkan autosomal input. You're thinking of Apulia.

I guess the numerous Calabresi arbereshe villages and municipalities and greek villages mislead me as to their influence.

Sikeliot
09-17-2017, 10:07 PM
I guess the numerous Calabresi arbereshe villages and municipalities and greek villages mislead me as to their influence.

Those are separate from the mainstream population.

JerryS.
09-17-2017, 10:11 PM
Those are separate from the mainstream population.

I figured that while they keep some customs and even language, they were still mixing with the locals.... 100,000 Arbereshe in southern Italy alone.

Táltos
09-18-2017, 12:47 AM
I figured that while they keep some customs and even language, they were still mixing with the locals.... 100,000 Arbereshe in southern Italy alone.

We have spoken in the past about the Arbereshe. The original poster should not worry if his first ancestor was a slave or not. Impossible to tell.

If you remember about my mother's direct paternal line in Italy....growing up I was told that line was Italian. I got into genealogy the paper trail showed me we came from an Arbereshe village. My grandfather's sister also confirmed this. I finally test a cousin from this Y line, and if you saw my thread here he is a J1! J-ZS1711 to be exact; downstream from J-P58.

I am not concerned that the original ancestor might have been a slave, or anything other than Italian or Albanian. I am intrigued by the results! One thing I do know is that my mother, brother, and I all still get autosomal matches to Albanians. We also get matches to people who just think they are Italian. My cousin who tested really needs a Big Y done because no one matches him beyond 25 STR markers. Others that have the J-ZS1711 SNP appear to be just Arabs (that I can find anyway). He is truly unique in his Y DNA result, and given the ethnic background it needs further investigating.

**The original poster needs to do further testing.

Pegasusphm1
09-19-2017, 04:31 AM
We have spoken in the past about the Arbereshe. The original poster should not worry if his first ancestor was a slave or not. Impossible to tell.

If you remember about my mother's direct paternal line in Italy....growing up I was told that line was Italian. I got into genealogy the paper trail showed me we came from an Arbereshe village. My grandfather's sister also confirmed this. I finally test a cousin from this Y line, and if you saw my thread here he is a J1! J-ZS1711 to be exact; downstream from J-P58.

I am not concerned that the original ancestor might have been a slave, or anything other than Italian or Albanian. I am intrigued by the results! One thing I do know is that my mother, brother, and I all still get autosomal matches to Albanians. We also get matches to people who just think they are Italian. My cousin who tested really needs a Big Y done because no one matches him beyond 25 STR markers. Others that have the J-ZS1711 SNP appear to be just Arabs (that I can find anyway). He is truly unique in his Y DNA result, and given the ethnic background it needs further investigating.

**The original poster needs to do further testing.

Our PF4869, and L829 is a bit of a mystery compared to the other three branches below L858.
Why is this a rare? What occurred? Bottleneck? Famine? War? Perhaps future archeology will turn up one of our ancestors.

Bronze Age, one city state not really discussed is Ugarit, this ancient site was destroyed by the Sea Peoples. Might be a good candidate. Then we have the later Phoenician city states period, some records of Israelite sailors with them. Thats been discussed on a number of threads regarding Jewish communities associated in areas of old Phoenician colonies. Yet it really isn't surprising, civilians, empires come and go. Yet for the most part the harbors and ports remained in use.

Bronze age we are dealing with myth and legend, city of Troy is a prime example. Given the Minoan, and Mycenaean J1 discoveries, along with archaeological sites we have established evidence of maritime commerce very early. Following the bronze age collapse, again we have emergence western Semitic peoples expanding westward. This period is more documented, Phoenicians, Greeks, Israelites, Egyptians etc... These migrations and reverse migrations have continued to recent times with the Spanish rule of the two Sicily, and discovery of the new world.

I think its really best to say Southern Italy had been heavily settled from eastern Mediterranean and Levant populations. Given the rarity of PF4869, associated subclads, and its terminal L829 it has been frustrating. But there are patterns emerging, modern samples originating in areas associated with earlier colonies and empires.

I believe this is going be a long journey for our family branch. More research has been devoted to FGC11, Z640, YSC76 for obvious religious and cultural significance from the Middle East region today.

I feel there are going to be very surprising discoveries along our journey, I say this because the ancient time periods researchers have been discussing. Iberia is going to be important, hasn't been discussed. A good number of J1's who migrated to the new world came from Iberia and their local location. Some of the surnames as with Italy reflect crypto- Jewish / Muslim converts. But the others may reflect much early period.

This doesn't touch on the eastern migrations down along the Red Sea and gulf of Oman, Persian Gulf and India. Pushing the Phoenician period, also opens up other related maritime peoples, and possibilities such as the Danaan/Danoi/Danites??? L829 dispersion, perhaps the deportation under Sargan II?

PF4872 was added to the j1 phylogenetic tree until 2012? 2013? Can't wait what will be discovered over the next 5 years.

Islamic expansion and PF4869, now that's interesting topic on its own, may cast doubt to some FGC12 claims.

Just some musings my cousins.

Pegasusphm1
09-19-2017, 04:48 AM
Italian names show Jewish ancestry...

Here's another topic needs to be discussed. Rabbi Barbara Aiello team of researchers have discovered many Ultra-Christian sounding names, had actually been Jews who converted, selecting these names to avoid Spanish Inquisition. A number of trade names, also De and Di. Youtube video Italian Jewish Name Game from Aiello.. You find the exact same examples among Palestinians with Jewish sounding surnames, that's been well established. Could some of the PF4869 be Spanish not Italian? Jews fled Spain for Sicily and Italy, then pushed out again went into the Balkins.

Just something I wanted to mention to keep at the back ones mind.

Aradon
10-26-2017, 02:58 PM
Italian names show Jewish ancestry...

Here's another topic needs to be discussed. Rabbi Barbara Aiello team of researchers have discovered many Ultra-Christian sounding names, had actually been Jews who converted, selecting these names to avoid Spanish Inquisition. A number of trade names, also De and Di. Youtube video Italian Jewish Name Game from Aiello.. You find the exact same examples among Palestinians with Jewish sounding surnames, that's been well established. Could some of the PF4869 be Spanish not Italian? Jews fled Spain for Sicily and Italy, then pushed out again went into the Balkins.

Just something I wanted to mention to keep at the back ones mind.

It is possible but I don't know, researching all of these individual haplogroup subtypes is exhausting enough.

Aradon
10-26-2017, 03:05 PM
We have the same haplogroup! B)

I am PF4872 , yours isn't on here.

https://i.imgur.com/S58dtqu.jpg

JerryS.
10-27-2017, 01:36 AM
From a genetic point of view, they're basically like Cypriots (they are more genetically outlying than Cretans or Sicilians). It could be either because of a large assimilated Jewish population there in the last 1000 years, or because unlike other places there has been little Norman, Lombard, or Slavic influence.

LOL, thanks. I was wondering where this line came from on my population sharing breakdowns. My Calabresi ancestors are rumored to have come from the Balkans at one time. I figure this lone Cypriot label is "ancient".


86.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.62

Pegasusphm1
11-25-2017, 10:02 PM
LOL, thanks. I was wondering where this line came from on my population sharing breakdowns. My Calabresi ancestors are rumored to have come from the Balkans at one time. I figure this lone Cypriot label is "ancient".


86.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 0.62

Perhaps given the dating of PF4869 / L829 should consider earlier expansion related to Bronze age maritime peoples.

Zorin
05-30-2018, 12:26 AM
Anything is possible and frankly without the ancient DNA samples to back it up we can't know if J-L829 is Phoenician.

As for you feeling less Italian, please don't. You have many more Italian ancestors than the one who contributed to your Y-line. Also please understand that your ancestors saw themselves as Italian and prior to that whatever other group they may have belonged to. I can sympathize with feeling "less" of the ethnic group you know your family to be related to. I grew up knowing my Y-line came from Scotland and my paper trail supports this however with a haplogroup like I1-Z140 (more specifically/likely I1-Y1798) it seems I have some relation to the Germanic peoples of Europe. For awhile I certainly felt fairly disconnected, but I have since realized that there are countless possibilities that could have resulted in my possibly Germanic ancestor or his descendants ending up in Scotland and adopting a Scottish surname.

To quote our very own A Norfolk L-M20: (of course replace English and other English locales to Italian)


I recently found out my exact Y-DNA haplogroup from FTDNA, I am J-L829 and my ancestors originate from Catanzaro in Calabria. I don't know much about ancestral genetics but how could even more Italian men contribute to my Y-DNA line? If my first ancestor was J-L829 then doesn't that mean all his male descendants are J-L829?

Zorin
05-30-2018, 01:08 AM
Phoenicians had much earlier contact with the Italian peninsula than the slaves of the Carthage. The TMRCA of J-L829 suggests that it came earlier into Europe roughly around the time that the Phoenicians were their prime with their vast trading network. There was 3 Phoenician colonies in Sicily and a known Phoenician quarter on the island of Ischia, Phoenicians very likely lived in the Etruscan and Greek cities in Italy, and as you said also Sardegna had Phoenician colonies and was later controlled by Carthage. If the TMRCA of J-L829 was around 2200 ybp than I would say its more likely that your ancestor was a slave, I would really reconsider the merchant possibility because it looks very considering the TMRCA. It isn't a disappointing result at all, I would suggest reading up on the history of the Phoenicians and the vital role they played in human history. Your line could be older in Italy than the Greek colonization, as I see this is a concern to you, like I said before dont be too hard on yourself. J1 in the South is anywhere from 5-8%, even majority of J2 is Middle Eastern technically as the real migration of J2 in Europe would have started sometime in the Middle-Late Bronze Age, and p.s. Lebanon has more J2 than J1.

Even the Etruscans themselves are very likely (for me 100%) Middle Eastern in origin, their language, religion and some of the Y we see in Tuscany show that the Etruscans at one point originally lived somewhere in Eastern Turkey and had close ties with the Semitic world based on some key loan words. There is the possibility that your line could have been Etruscan. I doubt Greek, where is your paternal side from in Italy?

My lineage is J-L829 originating from Cantezaro in Calabria. Considering Palermo was founded in 734 BC by Phonecia and assuming J-L829 in Europe is Phonecian then it is highly likely that my first in Italy already existed in Calabria by around 700-600BC at the latest. Phoenicians expanded throughout the Mediterranean while the Greeks focused on colonizing Southern Italy, they had wars over Sicily with the Greeks eventually but both Cultures in Italy were eventually absorbed by the Romans. A significant contribution to the Romans would have been Phoenician ships, they were copied and back engineered by the Romans but their copy wasn't as good, Phoneticians were the best sailers of the time and they are likely the descendants of the Sea Peoples during the Bronze Age collapse, I did a lot of research on the Sea peoples and they never harmed the Phonetician, they were likely related kin and the Sea peoples with their mysterious origins appeared out of nowhere and destroyed the Superpowers of the time, Hittite Empire and Myceanean Greece along with Ancient Egypt, with the Hittite Empire destroyed and the Egyptians and Greeks severely weakened, Phonecia expands throughout the Mediterranean.

The Sea Peoples are a purported seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions of the East Mediterranean prior to and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BC).[1][2] The Sea peoples destroyed their main competitors/enemies which paved the way for them to become more powerful.

Major expansion of Phoenician Civilization into the Mediterranean, all the major towns/cities founded in 1000-700 BC.

What I am wondering is how did my ancestors become Roman/Latinized? In most Cultures the man passes on his surname. I actually found my Roman latin surname on gens wiki pages, there are 2 branches of the family. None of them came from Calabria though, all Itallic tribes did expand from the North and the Romans/Itallics did expand into Calabria starting in 500 BC. They would have been far more numerous by 250-200BC.

There is a possibility that he could have been Greek or even Italic himself? Italics were primarily R1b but they had a large minority of G and J2, some might have been J1 but it is unlikely. It is for certain that my first ancestor was either Greek or Phoenician.

What I am having trouble understanding is how did my lineage become associated with my current surname? (The 2 Ancient Roman variations of it) I think it is likely that my Phonecian and/or Greek ancestor married an Itallic woman and she had his surname but they had male offspring and he chose to have the surname from his Itallic side.

I did find a known Roman praetor in 107BC with my Ancient Surname on wiki, his name had a certain letter beside the surname, those might be indicating his Phoenician ancestry. I suspect he was of Phoenician ancestry because there are 2 other men with that letter who were freedmen so they were slaves. 1 Slave from the 1st century AD and another undated slave , both had "C" in their name beside another letter and the latin surname, perhaps they had long past Phoenician ancestry. They were likely citizens who committed a crime and were sentenced to slavery, only Roman citizens who were born in Italy (mostly all Italian/assimilated Greeks/some Phoenicians in the South) had full Roman citizenship until 212 AD when Emperor Caracella declared that all free born people in the Empire had full Roman citizenship.

CDRNY
12-03-2018, 02:22 AM
No, J1e is Levantine/Anatolian. There is one Palestinian I know who's J1e too.

CDRNY
12-03-2018, 02:32 AM
E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.

They're rarer TODAY, but E carriers were dominating the Levant before J expanded into the region thousands of years ago. E carriers are on coast of the Levant from Palestine to Syria today along with J2. J1 is mostly inland which spread toward the south into the Arabian Peninsula.

CDRNY
12-03-2018, 02:37 AM
E-M123 is actually rather rare in Lebanon and Syria.


This relates to J1 in Italy but I am specifically looking into my Haplogroup, J-L829. Honestly, I am very dissapointed with my results, in the past I was hoping I would be R1b but then I found out Haplogroup J is much older than R1b and associated with Sumeria so I didn't care for being Haplogroup R anymore, but to find out I am J-L829 just makes me feel a lot less Italian. Originally, I was hoping my first ancestor in Italy was Etruscan, Greek or a Neolithic Remnant but it all seems unlikely, all evidence points towards it being a Phonecian, great enemy of Rome which was destroyed by the Roman Republic.

All possibilities point to this, whether he was a slave or not, he was most likely Phoenician, a non-Italian, non-Greek, non-Etruscan, basically a very foreign culture not associated with benefiting/developing Ancient Italy/Rome like Greeks and Etruscans were.

"
Agamemnon who is an expert in J1. "PF4872 is a branch of L858, its subclade L829 (TMRCA ~3500 years BP) is one of the best candidates for a Phoenician marker under J1 since it has been found in Lebanon (notably in an individual hailing from Dalhoun, a village in the jabal el chouf region not far from the coastline, itself part of a larger group of villages associated with the Phoenician city-state of Sidon), in Palestinian individuals originally hailing from Ashkelon, in an Israeli Druze sample and in Mediterranean areas normally associated with Phoenician and Punic settlement. PF4872 has also been found in Lebanon, Turkey, Greece and in a sample claiming affiliation to the Tayy' tribe (as well as in an Ashkenazi Jew from Lithuania), so an association with Phoenicians might not be circumscribed to its subclade L829. PF4872's TMRCA is ~4225 years old, this seemingly coincides with the emergence of proto-NW Semitic.""

"
L829 (comprising PF4852) which is found in Calabria and Campania (Salerno & Avellino), L829 is found in the coastal parts of the Levant (Lebanon, including among the Druze, and Ashkelon)."

This is why I think my first ancestor in Italy was a Phonecian slave, he might have raped an Italian woman which essentially started my lineage in Italy, forgive me for being so vulgar but I am just thinking of the possibilities.

"Aftermath[edit]

Ruins of Carthage
Many Carthaginians died from starvation during the later part of the siege, while many others died in the final six days of fighting. When the war ended, the remaining 50,000 Carthaginians, a small part of the original pre-war population, were sold into slavery by the victors.[4] Carthage was systematically burned for 17 days; the city's walls and buildings were utterly destroyed. The remaining Carthaginian territories were annexed by Rome and reconstituted to become the Roman province of Africa."


Is there any way I can know for certain? Tuscany is the core of Etruscan Civilization, Haplogroup J1 is only 2% in the sample from Tuscany on Eupedia but if any are J-L829 then perhaps my first ancestor in Italy could have been Etruscan.

I would be so proud to be a descendant of a Phoenician and I am. ;) Apart from all the lists they gave you here, Greeks named your continent (Europe) after a Phoenician Goddess.

Pegasusphm1
12-21-2018, 09:35 AM
L829 is also listed under JewishDNA as Sephardic (other). https://jewishdna.net/AB-345.html

What one can say about L829 is its likely related to Maritime populations, and could have spread with Bronze age, Phoenicians Israelite, Roman, Islam, or later periods. Defiantly footprints in Italy and Lebanon.