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alan
05-02-2020, 07:38 PM
I share that Alan (even own experience) but I guess if the BB were massive cradle boarders they were taking great risks with their in this case dominantly sons, because it causes retardments (mental and motorial).

As said a brachycephalic adaption could be caused by the 'LNBA transition' -nature-nurture- (an open question to me but I guess it's not unlikely).

I suppose its a matter of degree too. Beaker skulls look a little flattened at the back but they are not like some of the extreme medical cases of skull deformation ive seen pictures of. So they may not be of the sort of degree that causes retardation. Like most things, it may be a complex blend of genes and environment. Funny thing is, I kind of associate really large roundish heads with being common among the ultra clever kids (especially mathematical ones) at school during my childhood.

Finn
05-02-2020, 07:47 PM
I suppose its a matter of degree too. Beaker skulls look a little flattened at the back but they are not like some of the extreme medical cases of skull deformation ive seen pictures of. So they may not be of the sort of degree that causes retardation. Like most things, it may be a complex blend of genes and environment. Funny thing is, I kind of associate really large roundish heads with being common among the ultra clever kids (especially mathematical ones) at school during my childhood.

Indeed. So this may sign a kind of adaption in stead of forced upon....I guess I was one of those kids (I could be, no kidding a kind of overgrown BB ;) but not a mathematical one (saved by the bell with whiz kids like Angles, Huijbregts and Generalissimo around here :biggrin1:

rms2
05-02-2020, 08:31 PM
I find my interest in Beaker kind of waning as more R1b-L51 is turning up in Corded Ware that is older than Beaker.

Dieu
05-02-2020, 08:42 PM
I want to know what was the travel of P to R1b p312 (and many other haplogroups in fact). There a big gap between Malta and Corded ware.

uintah106
05-02-2020, 09:38 PM
I find my interest in Beaker kind of waning as more R1b-L51 is turning up in Corded Ware that is older than Beaker.

Negative. Beakers were a seminal moment in european history, probably the seminal moment. World history was decided by there descendants!

razyn
05-02-2020, 10:02 PM
Negative. Beakers were a seminal moment in european history, probably the seminal moment. World history was decided by there descendants!

But if they are Corded Ware with new table settings, the seminal moment was pre-BB.

etrusco
05-02-2020, 10:34 PM
Negative. Beakers were a seminal moment in european history, probably the seminal moment. World history was decided by there descendants!

Anthrogenica is a genetic forum, not a blog.

uintah106
05-02-2020, 11:18 PM
But if they are Corded Ware with new table settings, the seminal moment was pre-BB.

I dont think so. They are R1b corded ware bell beaker etc.(so is the majority of western and north western europe) I dont want to offend anyone but at some point males bearing the haplogroup R1b L151 and its subcladdes took over.

rms2
05-02-2020, 11:55 PM
Negative. Beakers were a seminal moment in european history, probably the seminal moment. World history was decided by there descendants!

Well, prehistory, and I'm not sure what gives you the right to respond with "negative" to me expressing my own personal feeling of waning interest in Beaker now that even older Corded Ware R1b-L51 has been found.

No, not negative: affirmative. I really do feel my interest in Beaker itself waning a bit and being replaced by the desire to know how Beaker came into existence. It's a feeling I've had for awhile now. I know L51 wound up in western Europe. I want to know how, and I'd like to see the steppe pastoralist origin of L51 finally confirmed once and for all.

I've been around these kinds of dna discussion forums for years, as have some others here. Since 2006 I've argued, at first against nearly everyone, including the experts, that R1b-M269 isn't native to western Europe but arrived with the first Indo-European settlers. It's been a long slog, and I've endured a boatload of bullsh*t because of it.

With Bell Beaker, the detractors were able to claim that the steppe dna in it had a different source than the R1b-L51 did, that the L51 component was native to western Europe and didn't come from the steppe. It's becoming harder and harder for them to do that, although the dumber of them still persist and will persist until hell freezes over.

It's nice to see vindication arriving, paper after paper. Finding R1b-L51 in Corded Ware, with Corded Ware levels of steppe dna, is a dream come true. I thank God for it.

rms2
05-03-2020, 12:04 AM
But if they are Corded Ware with new table settings, the seminal moment was pre-BB.

Exactly right. Pretty much everything that is Beaker was already present in Corded Ware first. Just change the burial orientation somewhat (in some places there was no change at all), place greater emphasis on archery and less on stone axes, and let time and wading farther and farther west dilute the steppe dna a bit, and - voila! - you've got Beaker.

uintah106
05-03-2020, 12:10 AM
Well, prehistory, and I'm not sure what gives you the right to respond with "negative" to me expressing my own personal feeling of waning interest in Beaker now that even older Corded Ware R1b-L51 has been found.

No, not negative: affirmative. I really do feel my interest in Beaker itself waning a bit and being replaced by the desire to know how Beaker came into existence. It's a feeling I've had for awhile now. I know L51 wound up in western Europe. I want to know how, and I'd like to see the steppe pastoralist origin of L51 finally confirmed once and for all.

I've been around these kinds of dna discussion forums for years, as have some others here. Since 2006 I've argued, at first against nearly everyone, including the experts, that R1b-M269 isn't native to western Europe but arrived with the first Indo-European settlers. It's been a long slog, and I've endured a boatload of bullsh*t because of it.

With Bell Beaker, the detractors were able to claim that the steppe dna in it had a different source than the R1b-L51 did, that the L51 component was native to western Europe and didn't come from the steppe. It's becoming harder and harder for them to do that, although the dumber of them still persist and will persist until hell freezes over.

It's nice to see vindication arriving, paper after paper. Finding R1b-L51 in Corded Ware, with Corded Ware levels of steppe dna, is a dream come true. I thank God for it.You have kicked ass in this matter , thank you

Generalissimo
05-03-2020, 12:36 AM
I find my interest in Beaker kind of waning as more R1b-L51 is turning up in Corded Ware that is older than Beaker.

I find my interest in Corded Ware waning as I look forward to more stuff from the Eneolithic steppe.

Some of the preliminary stuff I've seen looks very interesting, including a potential cline that looks like the formation of proto-Corded Ware just north of the Don around 4,500 BCE.

jdean
05-03-2020, 01:03 AM
I find my interest in Corded Ware waning as I look forward to more stuff from the Eneolithic steppe.

Some of the preliminary stuff I've seen looks very interesting, including a potential cline that looks like the formation of proto-Corded Ware just north of the Don around 4,500 BCE.

Sounds interesting, anything you can share ?

Generalissimo
05-03-2020, 01:06 AM
Sounds interesting, anything you can share ?

Nah, not yet. Let's wait and see what the various labs put out and how they spin it, then we can discuss it. They sequenced the data after all.

Pribislav
05-03-2020, 01:20 AM
Nah, not yet. Let's wait and see what the various labs put out and how they spin it, then we can discuss it. They sequenced the data after all.

Do you know when could we expect those papers? And how many papers (and samples) exactly?

rms2
05-03-2020, 02:50 AM
I find my interest in Corded Ware waning as I look forward to more stuff from the Eneolithic steppe.

Some of the preliminary stuff I've seen looks very interesting, including a potential cline that looks like the formation of proto-Corded Ware just north of the Don around 4,500 BCE.

Well, you've had more time with Corded Ware, since R1a was found in it early on. We're just now getting a good number of CW R1b-L51 results. The thrill is still fresh.

dsm
05-03-2020, 08:09 AM
Well, you've had more time with Corded Ware, since R1a was found in it early on. We're just now getting a good number of CW R1b-L51 results. The thrill is still fresh.

Rms2 - did you follow up David's suggestion to contact your Russian archeology friend and ask about what they have in the pipeline ?

If yes what have you learned that you can pass on ?

anglesqueville
05-03-2020, 08:22 AM
It's nice to see vindication arriving, paper after paper. Finding R1b-L51 in Corded Ware, with Corded Ware levels of steppe dna, is a dream come true. I thank God for it.

I have been awake for half an hour, with my first coffee in front of my computer, and these words are the first I read. I could have written them myself. This day starts well.

Generalissimo
05-03-2020, 08:37 AM
Do you know when could we expect those papers? And how many papers (and samples) exactly?

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2020/05/understanding-eneolithic-steppe.html

Finn
05-03-2020, 11:52 AM
I find my interest in Corded Ware waning as I look forward to more stuff from the Eneolithic steppe.

Some of the preliminary stuff I've seen looks very interesting, including a potential cline that looks like the formation of proto-Corded Ware just north of the Don around 4,500 BCE.

Meanwhile I'm drifting too....an Egyptian sarcophagus in the Pushkin museum seems to have exactly my Y-DNA line (Y-full).

From the Egyptian sand to the Frisian clay....a few weeks ago Angles 'accused' me of hallucinating, but for me this is beyond hallucination.

#enigmatic

Sorry for this interruption guys!

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=663546&viewfull=1#post663546

anglesqueville
05-03-2020, 12:05 PM
Meanwhile I'm drifting too....an Egyptian sarcophagus in the Pushkin museum seems to have exactly my Y-DNA line (Y-full).

From the Egyptian sand to the Frisian clay....a few weeks ago Angles 'accused' me of hallucinating, but for me this is beyond hallucination.

#enigmatic

Sorry for this interruption guys!

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6496-Map-of-ancient-E-samples&p=663546&viewfull=1#post663546

Just two words: I don't think I ever accused you of hallucinating but only of speculating too abruptly, without enough scientific rigour. I hope in this case that you are not going to start developing a theory on the relations of Pharaonic Egypt and Friesland.;)

Finn
05-03-2020, 12:23 PM
Just two words: I don't think I ever accused you of hallucinating but only of speculating too abruptly, without enough scientific rigour. I hope in this case that you are not going to start developing a theory on the relations of Pharaonic Egypt and Friesland.;)

I will stay in rigoureus lines Angles,

meanwhile :biggrin1::

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nuhja7y4TM

:behindsofa:

rms2
05-03-2020, 04:35 PM
Rms2 - did you follow up David's suggestion to contact your Russian archeology friend and ask about what they have in the pipeline ?

If yes what have you learned that you can pass on ?

No, I forgot about that, honestly.

Last time he denied that he had said they had gotten as far as P312 and would only affirm that it was M269, as I recall.

Since he might have let the cat out of the bag last time and had to back up and do damage control, I doubt he'll want to give us any previews of coming attractions this time.

rms2
05-03-2020, 04:42 PM
This is what popped into my mind when I read of your Egyptian y-dna connection, Finn, although the Bangles are much more appealing.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYbavuReVF4

Dieu
05-03-2020, 07:43 PM
No, I forgot about that, honestly.

Last time he denied that he had said they had gotten as far as P312 and would only affirm that it was M269, as I recall.

Since he might have let the cat out of the bag last time and had to back up and do damage control, I doubt he'll want to give us any previews of coming attractions this time.

P312 where exactly ?

rms2
05-03-2020, 09:23 PM
P312 where exactly ?

The whole thing stemmed from a post made at Molgen's Russian language forum by Alexei Butin back on 27 January 2018. Here it is in English:



Hello. Today, the XIV Samara Archaeological Conference was held. The following reports were heard. Khokhlov AA Preliminary results of anthropological and genetic studies of materials of the Volga-Ural region of the Neolithic-Early Bronze Age by an international group of scientists. In his report, AA Khokhlov. introduced into scientific circulation until the unpublished data of the new Eneolithic burial ground Ekatirinovsky cape, which combines both the Mariupol and Khvalyn features, and refers to the fourth quarter of the V millennium BC.

All samples analyzed had a uraloid anthropological type, the chromosome of all the samples belonged to the haplogroup R1b1a2 (R-P 312 / S 116), and the haplogroup R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2. Mito to haplogroups U2, U4, U5. In the Khvalyn burial grounds (1 half of the 4th millennium BC), the anthropological material differs in a greater variety. In addition to the uraloid substratum, European wide-faced and southern-European variants are recorded. To the game haplogroup R1a1, O1a1, I2a2 are added to mito T2a1b, H2a1.


My wife is Russian, so with her help I contacted Khokhlov to try and verify Butin's account. Khokhlov denied it, and, as I recall, would only go as far as to say there was R1b-M269 there.

alan
05-03-2020, 09:56 PM
I find my interest in Corded Ware waning as I look forward to more stuff from the Eneolithic steppe.

Some of the preliminary stuff I've seen looks very interesting, including a potential cline that looks like the formation of proto-Corded Ware just north of the Don around 4,500 BCE.

Sounds like Rostov on Don

dsm
05-04-2020, 08:03 AM
Sounds like Rostov on Don

Try looking here ... :)

https://www.google.com.au/maps/place/Voronezh+Oblast,+Russia/@51.5629681,39.3709389,8.25z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x412329ca62b37593:0x102a3a583f196 50!8m2!3d50.8589713!4d39.8644374

Dieu
05-04-2020, 09:02 AM
The whole thing stemmed from a post made at Molgen's Russian language forum by Alexei Butin back on 27 January 2018. Here it is in English:



My wife is Russian, so with her help I contacted Khokhlov to try and verify Butin's account. Khokhlov denied it, and, as I recall, would only go as far as to say there was R1b-M269 there.

Ah yes I remember this now. R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 ? Seems very dubious.

rms2
05-04-2020, 12:34 PM
Ah yes I remember this now. R1b1a1a2a1a1c2b2b1a2 ? Seems very dubious.

Yeah, at the time, I had my hopes up, though.

Still, something is up there, and Khokhlov knows what it is.

I'd be satisfied with some more L51. Don't have to go as far as P312.

Notice the "Uraloid" part? That's interesting.

Uralid Phenotype (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html)

Dieu
05-04-2020, 03:08 PM
Yeah, at the time, I had my hopes up, though.

Still, something is up there, and Khokhlov knows what it is.

I'd be satisfied with some more L51. Don't have to go as far as P312.

Notice the "Uraloid" part? That's interesting.

Uralid Phenotype (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html)

Is uralid the same as uraloid for Khokhlov ? I'm not sure. Isn't it something more like baltid phenotype ?

rms2
05-04-2020, 03:39 PM
Is uralid the same as uraloid for Khokhlov ? I'm not sure. Isn't it something more like baltid phenotype ?

I'm pretty sure they're the same thing.

alan
05-04-2020, 10:37 PM
Has anyone ever done a percentage of steppe beaker ancestry by nation table or map? I realise that is complicated by southern Europe having much diluted steppe beaker people from early on but I dont see why it couldnt be done using the assumption that central and NW European bell beaker people were close to the original beaker type at its inception.

alan
05-04-2020, 10:51 PM
Yeah, at the time, I had my hopes up, though.

Still, something is up there, and Khokhlov knows what it is.

I'd be satisfied with some more L51. Don't have to go as far as P312.

Notice the "Uraloid" part? That's interesting.

Uralid Phenotype (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html)

Think the lead singer of The Animals - Eric Burdon - was one of them :0) https://townsquare.media/site/295/files/2019/07/The-Animals-House-of-the-Rising-Sun-You-Tube.jpg?w=980&q=75

Andour
05-05-2020, 12:06 AM
Has anyone ever done a percentage of steppe beaker ancestry by nation table or map? I realise that is complicated by southern Europe having much diluted steppe beaker people from early on but I dont see why it couldnt be done using the assumption that central and NW European bell beaker people were close to the original beaker type at its inception.

I wonder how that could be done. You'd have to know what populations to contrast the BB against, and those extra populations wouldn't be the same for each nation. The best you can do is look at distances. Besides, you have fairly different BBs in Central Europe, and each population gets closest to a specific one, not always the one you'd expect (Look at the English and Dutch, for example).

I've tried a little, easy-to-repeat, experiment on Vahaduo using these source pops (all of them Scaled Averages):


Bell_Beaker_Bavaria,0.1271445,0.1324326,0.052713,0 .0416909,0.0331913,0.0126844,0.0009922,0.0016324,0 .0044465,0.0071138,-0.0007698,0.0066884,-0.0102576,-0.0124217,0.0121041,0.0082649,0.0028733,0.0016705, 0.002514,0.0048264,0.0046076,0.002125,-0.001164,0.0008301,-0.001539
Bell_Beaker_CHE,0.122929,0.1304955,0.044877,0.0172 805,0.0386225,0.004044,-0.002115,0.002769,0.0208615,0.0165835,0.0082005,0. 001274,-0.020069,-0.011629,0.0104505,0.000928,-0.001825,0.0026605,0.003394,0.005878,-0.0018095,0.000989,-0.002465,-0.0068085,-0.003413
Bell_Beaker_CZE,0.1264221,0.1317737,0.0544615,0.04 63115,0.0334385,0.01456,0.0028119,0.0056576,0.0036 743,0.0027649,0.0002463,0.0040103,-0.0115238,-0.0124714,0.0130291,0.0087555,-0.0003642,0.0013062,0.0035846,0.0039372,0.0034767, 0.0037266,-0.001904,-0.0001412,-0.002618
Bell_Beaker_England,0.1281142,0.1234808,0.0636217, 0.0673036,0.0256001,0.022745,0.0015319,0.0035126,-0.0033254,-0.0103537,-0.0030131,0.0040963,-0.0109569,-0.0151232,0.025616,0.0090259,-0.0062489,0.0015484,0.0025233,0.0063456,0.0060033, 0.0038516,0.0008216,0.0043246,-0.001508
Bell_Beaker_England_EBA,0.130897,0.126941,0.070144 ,0.064923,0.030159,0.01757,0.00752,0.002077,0,-0.004374,-0.00406,-0.000749,-0.014123,-0.014588,0.039087,0.027844,0.003651,0.005321,-0.007793,-0.001501,0.012852,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.006989,0.013532
Bell_Beaker_FRA,0.1259643,0.1235563,0.057448,0.063 5233,0.0266713,0.025472,0.0052483,0.0005387,0.0038 86,-0.0134247,-0.00341,0.0034467,-0.0107033,-0.018258,0.0212177,0.0147173,0.0057367,0.0009717,0 .0056987,0.005086,0.005033,0.0042043,-0.0010273,0.0088763,-0.0016367
Bell_Beaker_FRA_C,0.132604,0.1340495,0.0605275,0.0 385985,0.041854,0.0107375,-0.00047,0.006346,0.008897,0.0126655,-0.00203,0.012889,-0.015089,-0.0157575,0.0143865,0.0117345,-0.007888,0.0023435,-0.0016965,0.001751,-0.0004365,0.0058115,-0.0009245,-0.001265,-0.00467
Bell_Beaker_HUN,0.1257745,0.1629925,0.0422375,-0.023902,0.063704,-0.018546,0.00235,0.0040385,0.0291445,0.047928,0.00 17055,0.0029225,-0.010927,0.001445,-0.021308,-0.0068945,0.01519,6.35e-05,0.0108725,0.000688,0.0051785,0.0009275,-0.0077645,-0.015424,0.0016765
Bell_Beaker_HUN_EBA,0.1257744,0.1316381,0.0481301, 0.0340765,0.0300056,0.0126898,0.0032901,0.0024231, 0.0023009,-0.000296,-0.0010552,0.00414,-0.007303,-0.0111819,0.0093139,0.0102591,0.0030314,-0.0015836,0.0037395,0.0022978,0.0014351,0.0006182,-0.0002465,-0.0023499,0.0012724
Bell_Beaker_Mittelelbe-Saale,0.1287624,0.1302415,0.0592081,0.0496612,0.03 45064,0.0172565,0.0001469,0.0049614,0.0053944,0.00 04327,-0.003796,0.0037654,-0.007693,-0.0117152,0.0231405,0.0064472,-0.0040745,-0.0011717,0.0022468,0.0064408,0.0062079,0.0065999,-0.0062856,-0.0021688,-0.0012126
Bell_Beaker_NLD,0.1284778,0.1228792,0.0626964,0.07 32402,0.024543,0.0242984,0.0004994,0.003346,-0.0082066,-0.0132576,-0.0051356,0.0029222,-0.0081208,-0.014588,0.0251934,0.0100105,-0.0060466,-0.0022011,0.0012412,0.0072378,0.005849,0.0026894,0 .0002158,0.0061454,-0.000464
Bell_Beaker_POL,0.1269128,0.1261795,0.0529855,0.04 94997,0.0312365,0.0156178,0.0038188,0.0028268,-0.0039882,-0.000729,-0.0025577,0.003784,-0.013417,-0.01156,0.017406,0.0104415,-0.002934,0.0017102,0.0042738,0.0066908,0.0065508,0 .0051935,0.0020952,-0.0002107,-0.0012872
Bell_Beaker_Rhine-Main,0.117238,0.1046,0.057322,0.072675,0.020311,0. 025658,0.00517,0.000462,-0.013499,-0.01713,-0.005034,0.004046,-0.02111,-0.015551,0.018187,0.012331,0.012256,0.003041,-0.001131,0.014507,-0.000499,0.002226,0.002095,0.004097,-0.005149
Bell_Beaker_Scotland,0.122929,0.1228795,0.066562,0 .07106,0.027082,0.0280285,0.0005875,0.003461,-0.0002045,-0.010934,-0.006983,0.0065195,-0.011447,-0.0118355,0.0264655,0.001989,-0.0095835,0.00114,0.001571,0.000938,0.0085475,0.00 6739,-0.002095,0.010604,-0.000479


and these targets :


Austrian,0.1290886,0.1350056,0.054394,0.032737,0.0 347756,0.0125666,0.0072299,0.0062441,0.0028274,0.0 027551,-0.0038781,0.0007847,-0.0012942,0.0027849,0.0005029,0.0036968,0.0002223, 0.00079,0.0031793,0.0008385,-0.0009909,-0.0026548,0.0016675,0.0029627,-0.0010284
Basque_French,0.128051,0.1520246,0.0551727,0.01282 31,0.0564104,0.0025099,-0.00141,0.0033229,0.0305968,0.0412036,-0.0092724,0.0103408,-0.0209761,-0.0140237,0.0132192,-0.0019359,-0.0119173,0.0030278,-0.0007165,-0.0044144,0.010157,0.0024855,-0.0086397,-0.0091698,7.18e-05
Croatian,0.128051,0.1338467,0.0518917,0.0314925,0. 035822,0.0125223,0.0060161,0.0067381,0.0018408,-0.0058862,-0.001153,-0.0023827,0.0047275,0.0127851,-0.0066365,-0.0022011,0.0027512,-0.0007223,0.0018101,-0.0007503,-0.005166,-0.0024236,0.0044246,-0.0010966,0.0001796
Czech,0.1311592,0.1318625,0.0604843,0.0472574,0.03 8658,0.0189217,0.0063451,0.0086623,0.0046724,-0.0088874,-0.0016862,-0.0038965,0.0060493,0.011772,0.0017435,0.0009995,-0.0006419,-0.0001462,0.0035679,0.0028956,-0.001267,-0.0001617,0.0065132,0.0039302,0.0015935
Danish,0.1286198,0.1365888,0.0652418,0.0490152,0.0 441618,0.01757,0.003995,0.007788,0.0021475,-0.004009,-0.0051962,0.0019858,-0.0073588,-0.0026492,0.0211385,0.0018232,-0.010822,0.0008235,0.006599,0.0038145,0.0028078,0. 0008653,0.0016023,0.0151828,0.0054485
Dutch,0.1267527,0.1313048,0.0610935,0.0461486,0.04 0469,0.0166244,0.0065435,0.0080802,0.003576,0.0003 275,-0.0064447,0.0045873,-0.0087082,-0.0088422,0.0174443,0.005345,-0.0082143,0.0012669,0.0042698,0.0028138,0.0046909, 0.0028672,0.0002678,0.0153541,-0.0004921
English,0.1318551,0.137043,0.0617883,0.044013,0.03 92299,0.0167481,0.0049845,0.0057448,0.0052637,0.00 56781,-0.0047691,0.0056161,-0.0125892,-0.0103507,0.0206153,0.0035521,-0.0103689,0.004094,0.003685,0.0029619,0.0059369,0. 0034036,-0.0032693,0.0137938,3.16e-05
English_Cornwall,0.1301962,0.1397525,0.0613546,0.0 431826,0.0419013,0.0164115,0.0034346,0.0063902,0.0 064819,0.0069669,-0.0046342,0.0064788,-0.0137455,-0.0102476,0.0207548,0.003172,-0.012527,0.0021146,0.0037613,0.0032419,0.0048088,0 .0038712,-0.0007584,0.0143671,0.0006909
French_Alsace,0.1273112,0.1403715,0.0503172,0.0224 324,0.0384224,0.0089105,0.0029199,0.0048748,0.0068 516,0.010679,-0.0031341,0.0045785,-0.0094438,-0.0041699,0.0085606,0.0030662,-0.0048927,0.0024387,0.003243,-0.000716,0.0027639,0.0011562,-0.0013219,0.0071364,-0.0003143
French_Auvergne,0.1254161,0.1446566,0.0474194,0.01 29918,0.0434726,0.0039974,-0.0003394,0.0025128,0.0154076,0.0221721,-0.0024659,0.0073546,-0.0139686,-0.0096693,0.0082989,0.001483,-0.0007871,0.0014968,0.0030726,-0.000213,0.0018579,0.003737,-0.0022823,0.0018163,-8.87e-05
French_Brittany,0.1314657,0.1383406,0.0578504,0.03 92849,0.0391688,0.0158131,0.0031549,0.0042114,0.00 8186,0.0094899,-0.0051314,0.00559,-0.014368,-0.0131017,0.0183426,0.0043987,-0.0073016,0.0012795,-0.000462,0.0017727,0.0044671,0.0017868,-0.001254,0.0105465,0.0006586
French_Nord,0.1282752,0.1405432,0.0513571,0.025605 1,0.0382728,0.0088906,0.0010967,0.0044194,0.008373 ,0.0120166,-0.003484,0.0040328,-0.0108613,-0.0081823,0.0111991,0.0025432,-0.0046069,0.0022266,0.0040947,0.0010308,0.0021327, 0.0015249,-0.0015724,0.0074707,1.45e-05
French_Occitanie,0.1270391,0.1448823,0.048879,0.01 79086,0.0433756,0.0034164,0.0005222,0.0038909,0.01 48564,0.0235894,-0.0032883,0.0065816,-0.0150436,-0.0094578,0.010737,0.0025671,-0.0037088,0.0024846,0.0014247,4.52e-05,0.0036706,0.0024456,-0.0025505,0.0017673,0.0004224
French_Paris,0.1271714,0.1414355,0.0504313,0.02399 01,0.0409027,0.0093048,0.0027985,0.0054544,0.01160 22,0.0181739,-0.0077061,0.0068121,-0.0129065,-0.0103844,0.0137695,0.0060631,-0.0018255,0.0046644,0.0027082,-0.0009778,0.0022007,0.0035747,-0.0012325,0.0111405,-0.0019051
French_Pas-de-Calais,0.1278613,0.140482,0.0543053,0.026809,0.042 1617,0.0127363,0.0041517,0.0013073,0.0085217,0.012 4527,-0.0080113,0.002198,-0.0100097,-0.012019,0.0136627,0.008132,-0.000478,0.001816,-0.003645,0.004252,0.0099827,0.0014427,-0.002547,0.0059043,-0.001437
French_Provence,0.1219247,0.1438468,0.0368914,0.00 5358,0.0368574,0.0023296,0.0022671,0.0036379,0.010 0577,0.0204533,-0.0038687,0.0072112,-0.0121376,-0.0109614,0.0059557,0.0031744,0.0010967,0.0028095, 0.0017746,-0.0015155,0.0015414,0.0027349,0.0003552,0.0054435, 3.52e-05
French_Seine-Maritime,0.1360185,0.1370965,0.0452545,0.0295545,0 .039084,0.0167335,0.00423,-0.000692,0.003988,0.006014,-0.003735,0.0074935,-0.0075815,-0.0016515,0.0142505,0.0035135,-0.0079535,-0.002344,0.0009425,-0.0050025,0.0039305,0.0055025,0.000863,0.0042775,-0.0044905
French_South,0.1261811,0.1447856,0.0496183,0.00885 94,0.0506907,0.0026694,0.0002686,0.0022747,0.02764 01,0.0386601,-0.0067741,0.0073649,-0.021853,-0.0135659,0.0103729,0.0027653,-0.0051034,0.0017917,0.0002154,0.0019116,0.0049911,-0.0008301,-0.0052646,-0.0075569,-0.00142
German,0.1302626,0.1373792,0.0579811,0.0387068,0.0 400035,0.0156461,0.0040665,0.0057865,0.003526,0.00 188,-0.0044133,0.0023732,-0.0053706,-0.0025417,0.0085125,0.0032913,-0.0032728,0.0016631,0.0033669,0.0017191,0.00314,0. 002005,7.18e-05,0.0083052,0.0002774
German_East,0.1308965,0.1384928,0.0610936,0.049984 2,0.0381225,0.0161408,0.0063158,0.007038,0.0021988 ,-0.0049205,-0.0052168,-0.0017799,-3.71e-05,0.008223,0.0013064,-0.0031324,-0.0079045,0.0011876,0.0053106,-0.0007504,0.0006239,-0.0011128,0.0017716,0.0016118,-0.0003142
Hungarian,0.1270753,0.1296252,0.0553559,0.0364298, 0.0363804,0.0119326,0.0066138,0.0075326,0.0020597,-0.0046731,-0.0014731,-0.0027191,0.0038544,0.0087488,-0.0043722,0.0001231,-8.4e-05,-0.0003891,0.0026486,-0.0013221,-0.003378,0.0013865,0.0055286,0.0026939,0.0004789
Icelandic,0.1326987,0.1336267,0.067819,0.0563097,0 .0393663,0.0229619,0.0033488,0.0085188,0.0026418,6 .07e-05,-0.0054806,0.0051702,-0.0063675,-0.0090831,0.0230725,0.0052924,-0.0116909,0.0019109,0.0017389,0.0038873,0.0092545, 0.0028028,-0.0008422,0.0140179,0.0008282
Irish,0.1334042,0.134875,0.0610876,0.0482532,0.038 3388,0.0188992,0.003,0.0047738,0.0031318,0.002725,-0.00714,0.005606,-0.0143759,-0.0139278,0.0253478,0.0048208,-0.0110725,0.0022052,0.0007502,0.0013385,0.0051745, 0.0012249,-0.0003563,0.0147667,0.0010665
Italian_Aosta_Valley,0.1269696,0.1460839,0.0392582 ,0.0047481,0.036976,-0.0015478,0.0024088,0.0028038,0.0102262,0.0219594,-0.004766,0.0049306,-0.0147248,-0.010356,0.0074986,0.0062582,0.0051892,-0.000285,0.003375,-0.0005378,0.0029261,0.0019476,-0.0009181,0.0081396,-5.98e-05
Italian_Bergamo,0.1238394,0.1507044,0.0306976,-0.0117572,0.0361914,-0.0026774,0.001081,0.0017076,0.010758,0.0276634,-0.0013966,0.0068042,-0.0128442,-0.0062756,-0.0034744,-0.0041634,-0.0003652,0.0006588,0.0051536,-0.0055526,-0.001048,-2.48e-05,-0.0041902,0.0037836,0.0009578
Italian_Trentino-Alto-Adige,0.1250429,0.1459461,0.0346411,-0.0035069,0.0372377,-0.0033864,0.0033571,0.0029997,0.011307,0.0238729,-0.0030157,0.0050099,-0.0134431,-0.002831,-0.0005237,-0.0018751,0.0005961,0.001665,0.0042739,-0.0030194,-0.0014259,0.0028086,-0.0005106,0.000637,-0.0036781
Italian_Veneto,0.1256322,0.1482672,0.0303111,-0.0061572,0.0342755,-0.0004532,0.0020416,0.0020047,0.0100346,0.0230415,-0.0022328,0.0054889,-0.0105363,-0.0038189,-0.0026974,0.000953,0.0034796,0.0019557,0.0028518,-0.0042286,-0.0009982,0.0028594,-0.0001309,0.001318,-0.0021479
Norwegian,0.1338234,0.1279567,0.0679357,0.0534334, 0.0386443,0.0210366,0.0041964,0.0062964,0.0057267, 0.0003906,-0.0037349,0.0036823,-0.007518,-0.011698,0.0210754,0.0093949,-0.0054203,0.0026061,0.0006823,0.0007503,0.005633,0 .0055643,0.0042784,0.0177304,0.0010947
Portuguese,0.1061741,0.1446114,0.0360075,-0.0044316,0.042137,-0.0040494,-0.0037412,0.0027598,0.0255982,0.029741,-0.000734,0.0074214,-0.0127373,-0.0112631,0.0125568,-0.0003978,-0.0011316,-0.0008869,-0.005762,-0.0002452,0.0011379,-0.002572,0.0013015,-0.0011326,-0.0001053
Scottish,0.1314657,0.1342312,0.0622654,0.0470426,0 .039106,0.0172812,0.0035502,0.0051756,0.0035719,0. 0028246,-0.005614,0.0050473,-0.0116806,-0.0119731,0.023024,0.0031254,-0.0112549,0.0027736,0.0025499,0.0014516,0.0042246, 0.0033076,-0.0006559,0.0135561,-0.0007698
Serbian,0.1265712,0.137706,0.0370332,0.0138244,0.0 298516,0.003012,0.003854,0.006,0.0011862,0.0026242 ,-0.0010716,-0.0006894,0.0042816,0.0120556,-0.0128932,-0.005489,0.0062582,-0.0002786,0.004676,-0.0049274,-0.007836,-0.00183,0.0053492,0.00094,-0.0028502
Slovakian,0.1304414,0.128769,0.0626776,0.0514862,0 .0412384,0.0200244,0.006768,0.0077998,-0.0018408,-0.0115538,-0.0019162,-0.0037466,0.009871,0.0104318,-0.0091476,0.0092814,0.012934,0.0002534,0.0054304,0 .0023512,-0.0037186,-0.0020774,0.0043382,0.001928,-0.0018922
Slovenian,0.1288476,0.1352686,0.056191,0.0338504,0 .0349602,0.0126616,0.0065332,0.0069688,0.0031086,-0.004483,-0.0031828,-0.0022482,0.0022298,0.0151936,-0.0086318,-0.002201,0.0002086,0.0013682,0.0078184,-0.0011508,-0.004018,-0.0027946,0.0014052,-0.001976,0.0021792
Spanish_Andalucia,0.1081318,0.1460759,0.0357074,-0.003434,0.0452553,-0.0058567,-0.0019295,0.0026598,0.0247151,0.0311624,-0.0021538,0.0072724,-0.0132072,-0.0114083,0.0102433,-0.0024984,-0.0061762,-0.0011002,-0.0042604,-0.0021325,0.0029291,-0.0013016,-0.0019719,-0.0053334,0.0018844
Spanish_Aragon,0.1195142,0.14649,0.041389,-0.000323,0.0468548,-0.0001395,-0.0005287,0.002942,0.0249008,0.036903,-0.0021518,0.0103035,-0.0176535,-0.0128335,0.0127578,-0.0027845,-0.0047592,-0.0007918,-0.0022312,0.0010005,0.0034625,9.28e-05,-0.0011708,-0.0010545,-0.0002395
Spanish_Asturias,0.110408,0.144205,0.045632,0.0006 46,0.051702,-0.007251,-0.007285,0.006923,0.025975,0.031345,-0.003248,0.008093,-0.019029,-0.009083,0.014386,-0.013392,-0.015907,0.001267,-0.005405,-0.000875,0.006863,-0.006059,-0.001602,0.001325,0.006466
Spanish_Baleares,0.1160993,0.1469133,0.040603,-0.0027993,0.0407257,-0.0022313,-0.0005483,0.0024613,0.0192253,0.0292793,-0.004547,0.007943,-0.015015,-0.0126153,0.003936,0.0022537,0.0019993,0.0010557,0 .0011313,-0.004377,0.000541,0.000618,0.0012327,0.0003217,-0.004111
Spanish_Barcelones,0.1192866,0.1490798,0.045707,0. 0046512,0.0459162,0.0033466,0.0032432,0.003646,0.0 208614,0.0296314,-0.0041572,0.0070438,-0.014331,-0.0092206,0.007763,-0.0004244,-0.006102,-0.0001016,0.0023632,-0.0035268,0.0035686,-4.96e-05,-0.0039932,-0.003639,0.0015326
Spanish_Galicia,0.1087643,0.1464619,0.0410642,-0.0016509,0.0412043,-9.29e-05,-0.0054572,0.0024231,0.0247133,0.0300285,-0.0021291,0.0057365,-0.0126113,-0.0121567,0.0111441,0.0005893,-0.0042375,-0.0021607,-0.0050418,-0.0010076,0.0008734,-0.002899,-0.0008079,-0.0036818,0.0013038
Spanish_Navarra,0.1195143,0.1462363,0.044249,-0.0007537,0.048727,-0.0012083,-0.0032117,-0.0014613,0.024952,0.038695,-0.0049797,0.0114897,-0.0152627,-0.0170197,0.0156533,0.0028287,-0.0087357,0.0010977,-0.002472,-0.0025427,0.0046583,0.0025553,-0.0069427,4.03e-05,0.0047503
Spanish_Pais_Vasco,0.128241,0.1516523,0.0563163,0. 008075,0.052112,0.0024173,0.000235,0.002923,0.0277 467,0.039849,-0.0059003,0.0093417,-0.02106,-0.012065,0.0184127,-0.002475,-0.0123433,0.0028713,0.0022207,-0.0065867,0.0077363,-0.002432,-0.006532,-0.006748,0.003672
Spanish_Valencia,0.1179965,0.1446283,0.0408548,-0.0008882,0.0464702,-0.0014408,-0.0019975,0.0016346,0.0231624,0.0332581,-0.0030042,0.0083301,-0.0128593,-0.0123401,0.0096022,-0.0008507,-0.0046938,-0.0017209,-0.001236,-0.0009171,0.0055735,-0.0013706,-0.0020438,-0.0051411,0.0020557
Swedish,0.1339317,0.1282953,0.0720659,0.0563097,0. 0409013,0.0214348,0.0070612,0.0092964,0.0049085,-0.0065951,-0.0048022,0.001513,-0.004651,-0.0038337,0.0150003,0.0040156,-0.0072332,0.0020029,0.0034837,0.0048772,0.0070768, 0.0022787,0.0011269,0.0106612,-0.0009751
Swiss_French,0.1273395,0.1448398,0.0414364,0.01021 49,0.0411615,0.0064842,0.0008224,0.0028845,0.01181 11,0.0194308,-0.000751,0.0065942,-0.0159622,-0.0125238,0.0083468,0.0021712,0.0057533,-0.0016154,0.003661,-0.0003439,0.0047886,0.0036478,0.0016638,0.0025756,-0.0004791
Swiss_German,0.127624,0.1407779,0.0460088,0.022731 1,0.0406229,0.0073906,0.0027906,0.0051344,0.008640 9,0.0121641,-0.0015224,0.005264,-0.0149402,-0.008808,0.0083638,-0.0011269,-0.0025912,0.0012192,0.0053735,-0.0009222,0.0019341,0.0035086,-0.0025574,0.006974,-0.0025596
Welsh,0.1319779,0.1381628,0.0601319,0.0430236,0.04 05922,0.0166218,0.0033135,0.006392,0.0062789,0.004 3372,-0.0042302,0.0059122,-0.0129112,-0.0109754,0.0205954,0.005708,-0.0087032,0.0023564,0.003086,0.0020072,0.0049849,0 .0038518,-1.24e-05,0.0112243,0.0008083


The distances are interesting, but also the results in "multi", particularly if you sort them out by clicking distance and average.

Edit : I started out with many more European pops, but then removed all those that didn't get at least one distance below 5 to at least one BB ref.

rms2
05-05-2020, 11:48 AM
I think the best approximation is probably just the percentage of steppe dna in those countries that got their steppe dna primarily from Beaker and not from some other source, i.e., those countries west of the Rhine. Even then, there has obviously been a lot of back and forth over the millennia. But it seems to me that's the closest anyone is going to get, without going to the trouble of comparing each nation to various ancient Beaker samples.

Andour
05-05-2020, 01:02 PM
I think the best approximation is probably just the percentage of steppe dna in those countries that got their steppe dna primarily from Beaker and not from some other source, i.e., those countries west of the Rhine. Even then, there has obviously been a lot of back and forth over the millennia. But it seems to me that's the closest anyone is going to get, without going to the trouble of comparing each nation to various ancient Beaker samples.

It's probably more complicated than that. Looking at my own case, for example, right in Central France, I get 2/3 of my "farmer" from GAC and 1/3 from Central European sources (Hungary, Croatia), no matter how I try to model myself. The French, Italian and Iberian sources are adamantly ignored. Which seems to indicate that most of the admixture process occurred in early or even pre-BB times, and little of it on site here. In other words, my Gaulish ancestors arrived here "fully formed".

(By the way, in my case, for some reason, Vahaduo seems to always favour Afanasievo over Yamnaya Samara as a Steppe source.)

Target: Andour_scaled
Distance: 2.7907% / 0.02790747
44.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
34.0 RUS_Afanasievo
15.0 HRV_Starcevo_LN
7.0 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN

Target: AndourDaughter_scaled
Distance: 2.5978% / 0.02597753
35.0 RUS_Afanasievo
22.2 IRL_MN
14.8 SWE_TRB
13.2 POL_Globular_Amphora
5.6 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
5.0 HRV_Starcevo_LN
4.2 DEU_LBK_N

Target: AndourWife_scaled
Distance: 2.3091% / 0.02309138
37.8 POL_TRB
17.6 Yamnaya_RUS_Samara
15.6 RUS_Afanasievo
15.0 POL_Globular_Amphora
10.6 IRL_MN
2.8 SWE_TRB
0.6 DEU_Esperstedt_MN

Distance to: Andour_scaled
0.09863885 POL_Globular_Amphora
0.10497634 SWE_TRB
0.11387526 POL_TRB
0.11562336 IRL_MN
0.12109741 DEU_Baalberge_MN
0.12175635 CHE_LN
0.12355617 England_N
0.12409430 CHE_MN
0.12829257 DEU_Esperstedt_MN
0.12848720 Iberia_MN
0.13056912 HUN_ALPc_Szakalhat_MN
0.13135443 FRA_Clos_de_Roque_MLN
0.13226283 HUN_ALPc_I_MN
0.13423938 FRA_Lingolsheim_MN

rms2
05-05-2020, 01:08 PM
Of course, it's more complicated than a simple measure of how much steppe ancestry each population west of the Rhine has. It's just that it seems to me we're not likely to get any sort of better estimate, regardless of how much trouble we take in trying to calculate it.

But I'll admit the fine points of autosomal comparisons are not my thing.

Helgenes50
05-05-2020, 02:50 PM
It's probably more complicated than that. Looking at my own case, for example, right in Central France, I get 2/3 of my "farmer" from GAC and 1/3 from Central European sources (Hungary, Croatia), no matter how I try to model myself. The French, Italian and Iberian sources are adamantly ignored. Which seems to indicate that most of the admixture process occurred in early or even pre-BB times, and little of it on site here. In other words, my Gaulish ancestors arrived here "fully formed".

(By the way, in my case, for some reason, Vahaduo seems to always favour Afanasievo over Yamnaya Samara as a Steppe source.)



It should not be forgotten that the oldest Afanasievo, from the study below, is R1b-L151
The distance seems slightly better with Afanasievo than with Samara

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.03.25.004606v1

ADW_1981
05-05-2020, 03:53 PM
Yeah, at the time, I had my hopes up, though.

Still, something is up there, and Khokhlov knows what it is.

I'd be satisfied with some more L51. Don't have to go as far as P312.

Notice the "Uraloid" part? That's interesting.

Uralid Phenotype (http://humanphenotypes.net/Uralid.html)

I'm pretty sure that they didn't look quite like that. That's what central Russians look like *after* east Asian Mongolians moved into the western steppes.
Those people in the forest steppes or northern forests of western Russia probably looked like group ABBA, in my humble opinion.

rms2
05-05-2020, 05:42 PM
I'm pretty sure that they didn't look quite like that. That's what central Russians look like *after* east Asian Mongolians moved into the western steppes.
Those people in the forest steppes or northern forests of western Russia probably looked like group ABBA, in my humble opinion.

I don't know what they looked like. The whole thing came from Alexei Butin's post in the Russian language forum at Molgen, and he was supposedly reporting on what Khokhlov said at the 14th Samara Archaeological Conference back in January of 2018.

уралоидный антропологический тип is what was written, which means "Uraloid anthropological type". That was what was said of the alleged "P312" skeletons at "Ekatirinovsky Cape" (Екатириновский мыс), probably better rendered in English as Yekaterinovsky Cape.

He was talking supposedly about skeletons from the fourth quarter of the 5th millennium BC, which is what his post said. He didn't say they had East Asian genomic material, just that they were of Uraloid anthropological type.

The whole thing could be made up, as far as I know, although Khokhlov didn't deny that part, just that they had gotten as far as P312.

razyn
07-23-2020, 07:00 PM
Okay, but honestly I don't think that says much about the origin of Bell Beaker...

If Bell Beaker evolved from one of the regional CW variants or a single CW tribe that was R1b-P312, what happened afterwards wouldn't change any of that.

Of course, I don't want to sound like I am dogmatically asserting that Bell Beaker evolved from Corded Ware. I think it might have, but I also almost voted for the Gimbutas Model because I find it compelling.

One thing is for sure: we really need a Big Steppe Behemoth paper that includes hundreds if not thousands of samples from the kurgans on the Pontic steppe, in the Carpathian basin, the Tisza River valley, and (if possible) from all of the regional Corded Ware variants.

I was hoping Leo Klejn's discussion with the geneticists would inspire them to try to find the source of R1b-L51.

I just ran across this 2015 paper, mostly about gold lunulae and "buttons" recovered in Ireland, by Mary Cahill. It seems to me a worthwhile thing to insert into this discussion from three years ago, at which time we still had the benefit of Jean Manco's take on our hypotheses. I think the sun cult is important, and perhaps not brought up as often as it might be. I'll disagree in advance with one comment on p. 32, just before the author's Conclusions; but then will add the Academia url for the paper -- because it's well illustrated, and ventures considerably beyond shiny objects in Ireland.

I think we have some consensus in having moved past this part, since the 2015 date of the paper:

Given the accepted spread of Beaker pottery and cultural influences from Iberia throughout Europe, this provides a route whereby these ideas may have been transmitted along the Atlantic route, reaching Ireland perhaps as early as 2400 BC.

OTOH her attention to parallel solar-motif and boat-motif design elements -- found e.g. on ceramics (especially inverted bowls), the Nebra disc, and some Nordic Bronze Age stone carvings -- is unusual, and interesting. Here's a path to the paper via Academia. Probably there are other paths. https://www.academia.edu/11627053/Here_comes_the_sun...._solar_symbolism_in_Early_Br onze_Age_Ireland?email_work_card=view-paper

Finn
08-15-2020, 01:45 PM
Single Grave> Bell Beakers, Davidksi and Kurt Gerhardt
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21378-Single-Grave-gt-Bell-Beaker-in-Davidski-and-Kurt-Gerhardt&p=692423#post692423

rms2
01-29-2021, 11:52 PM
Single Grave> Bell Beakers, Davidksi and Kurt Gerhardt
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?21378-Single-Grave-gt-Bell-Beaker-in-Davidski-and-Kurt-Gerhardt&p=692423#post692423

Strange. It seems I never saw that post until today.

I think the evidence that Beaker was derived from Single Grave Corded Ware is pretty strong.

Of course, I voted for the Dutch Model in this poll.

MitchellSince1893
01-30-2021, 06:54 AM
Moved here
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?20310-L51-into-Europe-West-of-the-Steppe-Via-Corded-Ware&p=742234&viewfull=1#post742234

Silesian
01-30-2021, 02:10 PM
Quote Originally Posted by Marija Gimbutas
The Bell Beaker culture of western Europe which diffused between 2500 and 2100 B.C. between central Europe, the British Isles, and the Iberian Peninsula, could not have arisen in a vacuum. The mobile horse-riding and warrior people who buried their dead in Yamna type kurgans certainly could not have developed out of any west European culture. We must ask what sort of ecology and ideology created these people, and where are the roots of the specific Bell Beaker equipment and their burial rites. In my view, the Bell Beaker cultural elements derive from Vucedol and Kurgan (Late Yamna) traditions

Heat map of Sintashta Culture in Russia (North East of Caspian red region)and modern day successful bottleneck expansion within a mix of R1a-Z93--Early Baltic Corded Ware/Fatyanovo(flat grave?) and descendants of Kurgan culture I1020 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o2 R1b1a1b1b3a3----- related to Eastern Beall Beakers in Hungary and Vucedol R1b1a1b1b3a3.
The individual pictured above (I2787) has the highest concentration of the Steppe-like ancestry of any individual within the Beaker world, and probably Western Europe for that matter. At the same rate, Szigetszentmiklós has an individual (I2741) who exhibits nearly zero Steppe-like ancestry.


The Sintashta culture is thought to represent an eastward migration of peoples from the Corded Ware culture. It is widely regarded as the origin of the Indo-Iranian languages. The earliest known chariots have been found in Sintashta burials, and the culture is considered a strong candidate for the origin of the technology, which spread throughout the Old World and played an important role in ancient warfare.[9] Sintashta settlements are also remarkable for the intensity of copper mining and bronze metallurgy carried out there, which is unusual for a steppe culture.[10]

https://bellbeakerblogger.blogspot.com/2017/07/szigetszentmiklos-cemetery-santas-six.html
Szigetszentmiklós Cemetery (Santa's Six Foot Elves)


I7670 Russia_MLBA_Potapovka R1b1a1b
I1003 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1 low coverage
I1006 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1 low coverage
I0942 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a
I1086 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b
I0986 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b
I0989 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b
I1082 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2
I1055 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a
I1065 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2
I1084 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2
I1018 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2
I1008 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2
I1019 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1064 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1053 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1027 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I0984 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1011 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I0987 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1054 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_brother.I1053 R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1010 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_brother.I1086 R1a1a1
I1017 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1 Q1b
I1007 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1 Q1b
I0980 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o1 R1b1a1b
I1057 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o2 R1a1a1b2a2a1
I1020 Russia_MLBA_Sintashta_o2 R1b1a1b1b3a3


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA).PNG

https://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/09/the-beast-among-y-haplogroups.html

rms2
01-30-2021, 02:34 PM
Downloaded something from Academia.edu by Kristian Kristiansen this morning: "The Decline of the Neolithic and the Rise of Bronze Age Society", which is due to appear in the forthcoming, Oxford Handbook of Neolithic Europe, but which dates to November of 2014.

Good article, but you can tell it is somewhat dated, because Kristiansen attributes Kurgan Bell Beaker to the hybridization of eastward moving Iberian Beaker and Single Grave Corded Ware.

By now I'm sure Kristiansen knows better, since Olalde et al found no Iberian Neolithic DNA in Kurgan Bell Beaker.