PDA

View Full Version : Origin of T in Somalia



MujihaD
08-26-2017, 04:07 AM
Hi


I want to test Y dna (first time), I came from tribe in Somalia and we keep family tree until nearly more 1000 year or so,* some who I share* subtribe came as T m70. I am not interested in near ancestry, I want to know deep like 1000 -2000 Years ago. Which test is good for me ? , I heard FTDNA ystr are only good for near ancestry, So I was planning to for yseq.net panel (88 $ each) but I do not know which?

T-L131 Panel

T-M184 Panel

T-P77 Panel

or do the test NG Gen 2.0 test for deep ancestry.

I have budget of around 250 $


Thank you

GarethH
08-26-2017, 09:48 AM
Hi


I want to test Y dna (first time), I came from tribe in Somalia and we keep family tree until nearly more 1000 year or so,* some who I share* subtribe came as T m70. I am not interested in near ancestry, I want to know deep like 1000 -2000 Years ago. Which test is good for me ? , I heard FTDNA ystr are only good for near ancestry, So I was planning to for yseq.net panel (88 $ each) but I do not know which?

T-L131 Panel

T-M184 Panel

T-P77 Panel

or do the test NG Gen 2.0 test for deep ancestry.

I have budget of around 250 $


Thank you

Are you sure you are T-M70? Are the people who tested M70+ your paternal line relatives? There is one family group from Somalia in the T Project at FTDNA, three of them have an ancestral surname connection (Yonis or Yoonis).

If you're not sure, NG Geno 2.0 is probably better value as it will place you on the tree whatever your haplogroup.
If you want to go ahead with a panel at Yseq, go for T-M184 as I think it's unlikely that you are T-L131 or T-P77. You may not get a terminal SNP as recent as 2000 years ago, as there are no Big Y or research samples from Somalia.

MujihaD
08-26-2017, 03:38 PM
Thank you for your reply.Yes those who test for T are paternal relatives, Yonis and my tribe come from Garhagis (Garxhagis) line , I have seen some in my tribe gets T m70+ but vewi compared to Yonis

So you suggest I go with NG Geno 2.0 or Yseq panel T-M184?

GarethH
08-26-2017, 05:03 PM
Thank you for your reply.Yes those who test for T are paternal relatives, Yonis and my tribe come from Garhagis (Garxhagis) line , I have seen some in my tribe gets T m70+ but vewi compared to Yonis

So you suggest I go with NG Geno 2.0 or Yseq panel T-M184?

If your line is the same as the Yonis members of the T Project, the T-M184 panel is better. My prediction would be that you get M184+ L206+ M70+ L162+ L208+ FGC40280/Y18955+ and negative for all other SNPs in the panel, which is reasonable value for $88. NG Geno 2.0 would probably only get you to L208.

FGC40280/Y18955 is estimated by YFull to be 7,200 years old (see https://www.yfull.com/tree/T-Y16897/). To get any closer you would need to test with FTDNA's Big Y or an equivalent Full Genomes test - that would give you around 50 novel SNPs. Even then we would need a second person to test to find out which of these SNPs are significant markers for your tribe.

MujihaD
08-26-2017, 05:42 PM
Thank you I will go with T-M183 panel and see what I got

vettor
12-05-2017, 06:10 AM
interesting article a friend sent me

The model that makes sense to me is that Cushitic predates Chadic. If Y-DNA R1b-V88 were part of the founding population of Cushitic people, it would be present in Cushitic populations in more than trace amounts, which it is not. Chadic men, meanwhile lack both Y-DNA T and Y-DNA E1b1b in significant amounts. From a Y-DNA perspective, they are true outsiders. They picked up Cushitic wives and were influenced by Cushitic languages without leaving a genetic legacy in East Africa – the whole proto-Chadic community left for Lake Chad together.

There is really no otherwise way to understand a Chadic language origin that makes any sense. No place that R1b-V88 could have come from would have been within the range of the Afro-Asiatic languages at any point in history and they are associated with any other language group, so they must have experienced language shift to Chadic. Chadic was probably a result of substrate influences of Y-DNA R1b-V88 men acquiring Cushitic as a second language and changing that language in the process.

Y-DNA T was probably an earlier Neolitic arrival to Afro-Asiatic Africa

Phylogeny and geography, taken together, clearly put the origins of Y-DNA T outside of Africa.

One of the distinctive Y-DNA haplogroup in a lot of Cushitic populations is Y-DNA T and that clade almost certainly back migrated via the Levant and down the Nile to Ethiopia and Somalia, and had much more of a demographic impact all of the way up and down the Nile basin. The Gate of Tears route from Arabia for Y-DNA T in Africa is strongly disfavored because clades of Y-DNA T in Arabia have TMRCA of about 1,600 years ago v. 11,000ish for those in Egypt and East Africa which most Y-DNA T in Africa is found.

The Wikipedia survey of the frequency of Y-DNA T in Africa when I last looked showed 108 instances within Afro-Asiatic populations surveyed (mostly Egypt, Ethiopia and Somolia) and 26 instances of non-Afro-Asiatic peoples with 19 of those instances in three populations: 15 (of 256) individuals in the Spanish Canary Islands that trace roots to North Africa and were almost surely settled by Berbers during the Roman era, 6 (of 34) individuals in the Bantu speaking South African Lemba who claim to have have Jewish roots (which genetics tends to confirm), and 3 (of 17) of the Niger-Congo speaking Fulbe in Northern Cameroon right on the Afro-Asiatic and Niger-Congo population boundary in Africa.

There were only seven other individuals in all of Africa with Y-DNA T in all of the populations that have been surveyed (and the Wikipedia list is while not a complete set of the literature, a summary of a very good share of the entire literature) out of 134 African surveyed with Y-DNA T in all. There were three isolated cases in small Bantu populations, and four involving small percentages in Nilotic populations, and each of these trace outliers was in samples mostly on the Eastern Coast of Africa which would have been exposed to Y-DNA T rich Somolians in the sea trade or near the Western boundary of Afro-Asiatic populations that are relatively rich in Y-DNA T.

But, there are some Cushitic populations with little or no Y-DNA T, so Y-DNA T doesn’t make a good source population for the Cushitic language either.

While hard data implies that it is possible that Y-DNA T conceivably could have arrived Mesolithic migrants, a narrative in which Y-DNA T is one of the clades present in the first population to bring the Fertile Crescent Neolithic package to Sudan, Ethiopia and Somolia via the Nile makes a lot more sense, even though this compresses the time frame for their arrival to no more than 700 years prior to the R1b-V88 proto-Chadic men. And, it also looks like that Y-DNA T wave, like the Y-DNA R1b-V88 wave, was male dominated, because there aren’t corresponding West Asian/SW Asian mtDNA clades in the places where Y-DNA T is found in Africa of the right time depth.

There are two main back migrating mtDNA lineages in Afroasiatic language speaking areas: mtDNA M1 and mtDNA U6. But the time depth of these clades in Africa is far too great (well into the Upper Paleolithic) and there are absent pretty much everywhere outside of Africa that Y-DNA T is found. Gonzalez et al. 2007 suggest that Afroasiatic speakers may have dispersed from East Africa carrying the subclades M1a and U6a1 but that would still have been pre-Neolithic, and mtDNA U6 is predominantly in places where Y-DNA T is not found within Africa.

Another thing that makes Y-DNA T seem more plausible as a Neolithic rather than Mesolithic arrival in Africa is that Y-DNA T is a secondary Y-DNA component (after Y-DNA G) in the first wave Neolithic populations of Europe including ancient DNA from early Neolithic Anatolia and LBK populations in Germany.

drobbah
12-05-2017, 06:56 AM
There is really no otherwise way to understand a Chadic language origin that makes any sense.

No place that R1b-V88 could have come from would have been within the range of the Afro-Asiatic languages at any point in history and they are associated with any other language group, so they must have experienced language shift to Chadic. Chadic was probably a result of substrate influences of Y-DNA R1b-V88 men acquiring Cushitic as a second language and changing that language in the process.


Well the Chadic branch is one of the youngest branches in the AA macro-family.I can agree with a lot of what has been written so far but I have a problem with the bolded.

Are you claiming that Chadic is a sub-branch of a specific Cushitic language subfamily?Because that would be absurd considering Chadic apparently has a couple loan words from the Beja language.I don't remember where exactly I read this but it said something along the line of them adopting some words for livestock







But, there are some Cushitic populations with little or no Y-DNA T, so Y-DNA T doesn’t make a good source population for the Cushitic language either.

That is true there are some Cushitic speaking populations that have small frequencies of T-M70 found among them but the the reason for that could be founder effects...for example some groups like the Iraqw (and majority of Southern cushites) completely lack E-V32 and Somalis compeletly lack A-M13, E-M293,E-V6 that does not mean the proto-Cushites lacked these lineages does it?

If you knew anything about proto-cushites you would know they were pastoralists with neolithic vocab and Middle Eastern animals so I wouldn't think it's far fetched to think T was found among the proto-Cushites.Also the fact that T can be found with South Cushites as far as Tanzania goes to show that this haplogroup was found among the original speakers of Proto-Cushitic.

And no I am not claiming T-M70 originated in Africa.I'm just refuting the notion that it couldn't possibly be found among the original cushitic speakers that later ventured south into the Horn and beyond.I also dont accept the notion that proto-Chadic was some creolized Cushitic hybrid language

RCO
12-05-2017, 10:47 AM
Do you think it's possible to T to had arrived together with J1 in those regions, Horn of Africa ? I don't know the TMRCA of those haplogroups there and a possible route from Arabia.

vettor
12-05-2017, 05:24 PM
Do you think it's possible to T to had arrived together with J1 in those regions, Horn of Africa ? I don't know the TMRCA of those haplogroups there and a possible route from Arabia.

I have only read that the T branch in the Arabian peninsula is only between 1600 and 2000 years old only, there is more than 1 paper on this.

My guess is that T travelled to the horn via the nile river and settled in eritiera , forming the DIR clan of T haplogroup

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dir_(clan)

The Saudi T branch are all less than 2000 years old and the Oman branch 1600 years old...........my guess is that all T next to the Persian gulf are of Persian origins/ Lar area.

The only known story I have of T in the arab peninsula is that of the Lemba priests ( jews ) , who migrated from northern Levant without wifes, stopped at yemen for a short period, then travelled to Tanzania and finally settling around northern south Africa , here is where they first took up wifes of the local tribes

RCO
12-05-2017, 08:42 PM
Some Arabian T branches look like very old at YFull.

vettor
12-05-2017, 10:27 PM
Some Arabian T branches look like very old at YFull.

Which ones?

The T-y37311 Saudi from Persia gulf or T-y16244 from UAE Persia gulf