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R.Rocca
08-04-2013, 01:08 PM
The paper that contributed the 'PF' prefixed SNPs to the Geno 2.0 product has been published:

Low-Pass DNA Sequencing of 1200 Sardinians Reconstructs European Y-Chromosome Phylogeny
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/341/6145/565.abstract

While the study is focused primarily on founders for I2a1 and Otzi's haplogoup G, there is some important information in the supplementary material for U152. Here is the information I was able to pull together:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Francalacci_U152.png

The headline grabber here is the real dominance of Z192 in Sardinia where it makes up 58.6% of all U152 lineages. Z192 had been found in 1000 Genomes samples from Tuscany and Mexico but in only one commercial sample thus far:

Kit no. N8217 (FTDNA Kennedy Project), Michael Kennedy, b.c. 1817, Co. Kerry and d. 1862

At the opposite end of the spectrum we have L2 and Z36 which make up only small percentages of both U152 and Sardinian males overall. It is difficult to see either in the context of large migrations from the peninsula. Z56 is slightly more frequent than L2 and it's Z144/Z145 subclade makes up the majority of Z56. Sardinian U152, where a single subclade is so dominant (Z192), contrasts with the completely diverse scenario in Tuscany, where no single subclade is found in dominant numbers over another. U152 frequency in Tuscany is also several times greater than in Sardinia based on 1000 Genomes data and that of the recent Boattini et al. study (see here: http://www.r1b.org/?page_id=242).

jeanL
08-04-2013, 04:44 PM
Richard there were only 1200 Sardinians tested, the 1204 comes from the fact that they added 1-French Basque and 1-Northern Italian belonging to I2a1a, and 1-Tuscan, and 1-Corsican belonging to G2a. So when doing the percentages for Sardinia, it should be out of 1200, not 1204 (Not that it makes any difference, but well, my god forsaken OCD makes point that out :))

See here:




To estimate points of divergence between Sardinian and continental clades, we sequenced two samples from the Basque Country and northern Italy, belonging to haplogroup I, and two, from Tuscany and Corsica, belonging to haplogroup G. We also analyzed the sequence of the so-called Iceman Ítzi (9), together with 133 publicly available European sequences from the 1000 Genomes Project database and those SNPs from the International Society of Genetic Genealogy (ISOGG) database detected outside Sardinia.

The Basque individual separates from the basal position of the I2a1a branch that encompasses 11 Sardinian individuals. The northern Italian sample, instead, most likely reflecting the last step of I2a1 lineages before their arrival in Sardinia, is at the basal point of most of the remaining I2a1a samples (Fig. 2). Considering two other basal lineages encompassing only Sardinian samples, we can infer that when the I2a1a sub-haplogroup entered Sardinia, it had already differentiated into four founder lineages that then accumulated private Sardinian variability. Two other founder clades show similar divergence after entry into the island: one belonging to haplogroup R1b1c (xV35) (whose differentiation is identified contrasting the Sardinian data with the ISOGG and 1000 Genome data), and the other to haplogroup G2a2b-L166 (identified by divergence from a sequenced Corsican sample).

Bolgeris
08-04-2013, 06:06 PM
Thank you Richard ..
very interesting.
good work..

R.Rocca
08-04-2013, 06:46 PM
Richard there were only 1200 Sardinians tested, the 1204 comes from the fact that they added 1-French Basque and 1-Northern Italian belonging to I2a1a, and 1-Tuscan, and 1-Corsican belonging to G2a. So when doing the percentages for Sardinia, it should be out of 1200, not 1204 (Not that it makes any difference, but well, my god forsaken OCD makes point that out :))

See here:

Every bit of detail counts, so thanks for pointing that out. I corrected my table above.

R.Rocca
08-04-2013, 06:53 PM
Thank you Richard ..
very interesting.
good work..

Giuseppe, unfortunately for me there were no L2+ Z367- Z49- samples :(

Maybe when we get some samples from the peninsula it will help me out.

Solothurn
08-04-2013, 07:22 PM
Thanks Rich

In the 'U152+ L2- Z36- Z56- Z192-' group, there are:

23407934 C>G 23119461 G>A

Are these mutations 'new'?

R.Rocca
08-04-2013, 11:25 PM
Thanks Rich

In the 'U152+ L2- Z36- Z56- Z192-' group, there are:

23407934 C>G 23119461 G>A

Are these mutations 'new'?

23407934 is "sort of" new (a.k.a. CTS11993) in that it had previously been found in a single 1000 Genomes U152* sample from Tuscany. CTS11993 is not available for test via Geno 2.0 nor FTDNA.

23119461 is new.

alan
08-04-2013, 11:46 PM
Rich, how does this new data sit with your archaeological interpretations? I just dont have the subclade knowledge to think it through.

Solothurn
08-05-2013, 10:28 AM
Thanks Rich :)

So do you think they ever will become available for us to test?



23407934 is "sort of" new (a.k.a. CTS11993) in that it had previously been found in a single 1000 Genomes U152* sample from Tuscany. CTS11993 is not available for test via Geno 2.0 nor FTDNA.

23119461 is new.

R.Rocca
08-05-2013, 01:14 PM
Rich, how does this new data sit with your archaeological interpretations? I just dont have the subclade knowledge to think it through.

This much we know:

1. Sardinia is heavily concentrated with Bell Beaker material when compared to most of peninsular Italy.
2. Sardinia also has a heavy concentration of statue-menhirs. They are very similar to those found in Liguria and the Alps.
3. Archaic Sardinian was a non-IE language, and based on place names, has recently been linked to Basque. It is difficult to not see an I2a1-M26 connection here.
4. Sardinia has the lowest R1b frequency in Western Europe, but most of it is P312 instead of Z2103/Z2105.

So my assumptions are:

1. DF27 may have been brought by small amounts of Bell Beaker people from Southern France via Tuscany.
2. While the traditions of Bell Beaker caught on, it does not seem like their genetics nor their presumed-IE language did.
3. Z192 might be a founder affect carried over from a U152* male somewhere close to Sardinia/Tuscany during the Copper Age or even with Bell Beaker itself.
4. The absence of major continental U152 sub-lineages like L2 and Z36 points to their trickling in after Bell Beakers. I had mentioned previously that L2 might be related in Italy to the Early Bronze Age Polada Culture which has a heavy Central European influence. A small amount of Polada Culture material has been found in Sardinia.

alan
08-05-2013, 04:44 PM
That sounds rather like two overlapping influences - beaker from the west and stelae from the east, although maybe not contemporary. The article on the recent wall of stelae suggests 3000BC while beaker I assume is a few centuries later. This could be an interesting study in terms of the history of both these groups.

1. what is the non-U152 r1b on the island in this study and is their much

2. What sort of beaker is found on Sardinia.

This fairly new book is a very interesting read on Sardinia. Unless I am misunderstanding it, it apparently mentions the stelae there have Remedello daggers, so that is a pre-beaker link to the Alps, Italy and SE France. It then largely seem to talk about Med. France and the NW of the island in terms of early beaker and probably more central European influences through north Italy in the late beaker period. What might be significant here is if the clade frequencies are very different from Iberia despite Med. French early beaker generally being derived from Iberia by French archaeologists. It might even back the idea that a pre-beaker network already established the initial clade pattern before the beaker era.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VLNahHXQunAC&pg=PA78&lpg=PA78&dq=bell+beaker+sardinia&source=bl&ots=idY1W553CM&sig=MUWCNuC9slkmbdsXxYc0pFglzR4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=R9H_UZy7OPCh7Abu6YDADw&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=bell%20beaker%20sardinia&f=false

alan
08-05-2013, 05:34 PM
I have to say that this really could potentially indirectly tells us something very interesting about beaker and pre-beaker copper age peoples of the Alps, NW Italy, southern France and Iberia if its teased out. Clearly Iberia or allegedly Iberian derived early beaker groups such as in SE France seem unlikely to have brought U152 of any kind given the lack there. So that highlights the Remedello and late beaker and also Polada periods as most likely times of arrival with a period of early beaker in between that seems on the whole to be unlikely to be U152 unless French archaeologists interpretation of the Iberian roots of the early beaker of SE France is wrong.

Another thought is that the main expansion period of the main I clades and R1b clades are put at a similar time albeit one had a much smaller impact. The problem with all the dating debate is when. However, I am not seeing anyone suggest a date for P312 much older than 4000BC so that makes the copper age still the main horizon for R1b arrival on the island. What do we know about this I clade beyond Sardinia?

Here so another recent book on the archaeology of sardinia. My eyes are too tired to read it right now but enjoy

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=fw4XuEbKnQwC&pg=PA54&dq=nuragic+culture+sardinia&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ren_UZebMI6U7Qaa_IDwDQ&ved=0CEYQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=nuragic%20culture%20sardinia&f=false

Actually I had a squinted skim through it. He is very much not into migration. Sees the Neolithic as gradual borrowing of things like Cardial pots, animals etc by the local hunters on the island who had already estabished an obsidian trade with mainland and brought bacl wives from the mainland who could make pots. Cannot say its impossible he is right but it would make Sardinia an exception to the rule. Then again the Sardinians are unusual genetically so who knows.

TigerMW
08-06-2013, 02:44 PM
This much we know:

1. Sardinia is heavily concentrated with Bell Beaker material when compared to most of peninsular Italy.
2. Sardinia also has a heavy concentration of statue-menhirs. They are very similar to those found in Liguria and the Alps.
3. Archaic Sardinian was a non-IE language, and based on place names, has recently been linked to Basque. It is difficult to not see an I2a1-M26 connection here.
4. Sardinia has the lowest R1b frequency in Western Europe, but most of it is P312 instead of Z2103/Z2105.

So my assumptions are:

1. DF27 may have been brought by small amounts of Bell Beaker people from Southern France via Tuscany.
2. While the traditions of Bell Beaker caught on, it does not seem like their genetics nor their presumed-IE language did.
3. Z192 might be a founder affect carried over from a U152* male somewhere close to Sardinia/Tuscany during the Copper Age or even with Bell Beaker itself.
4. The absence of major continental U152 sub-lineages like L2 and Z36 points to their trickling in after Bell Beakers. I had mentioned previously that L2 might be related in Italy to the Early Bronze Age Polada Culture which has a heavy Central European influence. A small amount of Polada Culture material has been found in Sardinia.

Thanks. Some good food for thought. As an FYI, I reviewed most of the Iberian projects last week and found a few 492=14 folks, more than I was expecting. Still, I wouldn't say it is a big thing and there may be some strange P312** types in Iberia. It is undertested, SNP-wise, in our projects.

Claxon
08-06-2013, 03:52 PM
A good read on the archeology of Sardinia is
"Shepherds, Sailors and Conquerors" by Dyson and Rowland
"archeology and history in Sardinia From the Stone Age to the Middle Ages"
from U pa
isbn 978-1-934536-02-5

of interest are the many nuraghs ( towers) in Sardinia, which are very much like the Scottish towers.
The writings on Nuraghic society are interesting, as is the entire book. Ancient sacred wells,, Carthaginians, Punic writing etc. and of course, Sardinia in the neolithic and Paleolithic.
,Rc

alan
08-06-2013, 05:32 PM
A good read on the archeology of Sardinia is
"Shepherds, Sailors and Conquerors" by Dyson and Rowland
"archeology and history in Sardinia From the Stone Age to the Middle Ages"
from U pa
isbn 978-1-934536-02-5

of interest are the many nuraghs ( towers) in Sardinia, which are very much like the Scottish towers.
The writings on Nuraghic society are interesting, as is the entire book. Ancient sacred wells,, Carthaginians, Punic writing etc. and of course, Sardinia in the neolithic and Paleolithic.
,Rc

That is the 2nd link I posted above. It questions the idea that the Sardinians are a Neolithic remnant and suggests they were Neolithiced hunter-gatherers. They are of course, along with people around the old Franco-Cantabrian refugia, the peak of the Med. autosomal component. It does raise the question in my mind as to whether we might be wrong in attributing Med. to farmers. That is only possible if there were two very different autosomal pools of hunters in SW and eastern Europe.

La Brana Mesolithic burial in Iberia may seem to contradict this idea but its maybe not clearcut. DIENEKES calculated

K7b admixture proportions: 9.3% African and 90.7% Atlantic_Baltic

K12b: 45% Atlantic_Med, 41.6% North_European, 10.3% East_African, 1% Sub_Saharan.

euro7 calculator: 89.6% Northwestern, 1.6% Southeastern, and 8.7% Far_Asian.

I am not sure what to make of these. Is there evidence of a mixture of two Mesolithic inputs? It does show that Atlantic-Med, whatever that is, was present in pre-farming times in the SW of Europe. How does that relate to plain old 'Med'

GoldenHind
08-07-2013, 12:45 AM
Thanks. Some good food for thought. As an FYI, I reviewed most of the Iberian projects last week and found a few 492=14 folks, more than I was expecting. Still, I wouldn't say it is a big thing and there may be some strange P312** types in Iberia. It is undertested, SNP-wise, in our projects.

I pointed this out elsewhere, but so far there isn't a single identified example of P312** with Iberian origins. I have tracked a large number of Iberian P312 (XL21,U152) testing for DF27 and so far everyone one of them has tested DF27+. The one apparent Iberian on the P312** list actually has confirmed his ancestry is from Flanders. If there is any P312** in Iberia, it must be very rare.

I have no idea what the 492=14 group might be.

Claxon
08-07-2013, 02:21 AM
sorry if the following is off subject re genetics.
There are a few videos of Nuraghis in Sardinia. . There aRE 7,000 OF THEM.

http://youtu.be/seEtKEvh7PE

Solothurn
08-07-2013, 09:34 AM
Thanks Rich

I know you enjoy reading :)

Brochs and the Roman occupation of lowland Scotland
4th link down as it will not allow me to post a link :(
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=broch+age&ie=UTF-8&nfpr=1#bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&fp=365125e5ec72c039&q=broch+lowland

The towers of Sardinia
http://www.philipcoppens.com/nuraghe.html





of interest are the many nuraghs ( towers) in Sardinia, which are very much like the Scottish towers.

R.Rocca
08-07-2013, 11:33 AM
I pointed this out elsewhere, but so far there isn't a single identified example of P312** with Iberian origins. I have tracked a large number of Iberian P312 (XL21,U152) testing for DF27 and so far everyone one of them has tested DF27+. The one apparent Iberian on the P312** list actually has confirmed his ancestry is from Flanders. If there is any P312** in Iberia, it must be very rare.

I have no idea what the 492=14 group might be.

Not that I think P312 originated in Iberia, because I don't, but let's be fair - the last count of FTDNA samples from the British Isles and Ireland was at ~75,000 and the combined total for Spain and Portugal was ~4,900. By all accounts, P312** is probably just as uncommon in the isles as it is in Iberia, France, etc.

As for DYS492=14, it is a key value for the U152+ Z56+ group.

alan
08-07-2013, 01:33 PM
Not that I think P312 originated in Iberia, because I don't, but let's be fair - the last count of FTDNA samples from the British Isles and Ireland was at ~75,000 and the combined total for Spain and Portugal was ~4,900. By all accounts, P312** is probably just as uncommon in the isles as it is in Iberia, France, etc.

As for DYS492=14, it is a key value for the U152+ Z56+ group.

That of course is strong evidence that any out of Iberia aspect of R1b linked to the early beaker spread from west to east along the Med. is likely to really be a DF27 phenomenon and not relevant to the oldest part of the P312 story. It would broadly support the pre-beaker copper age spread model for R1b. That in turn does broadly support the idea of P312 originating somewhere in the Alps or adjacent c. 3000BC at the very latest. The most clear signal that seems to link to that is the Remedello zone of influence in the Alpine area. The timing in such a scenario would require DF27 to occur on the last stretch of the journey to Iberia c. 3000BC too and for U152 to also have occurred around the same time but either fractionally too late to make it to Iberia or occuring in a slighly different position. Perhaps a little of both. In general the whole stelae concept does require the L51-L11-P312-DF27/U152 sequence to be pushed into the period between 3500BC and 3000BC for everything to stack up nicely.

Frustratingly though, while a plausible story seems to emerge for P312, DF27 and U152, L21 is a little more obscure in terms of where it fits. If L27 and U152 emerged around 3000BC and we can suggest pre-beaker copper age archaeological traces of it, then what about L21? Does it have a pre-beaker trail? I personally cannot see one. Perhaps that is because it is often dated a little later than the other two P312 clades. Maybe it doesnt have a pre-beaker story of its own as a distinct clade and the SNP only occurred c. 2600BC. If an Alpine type region origin for P312 looks most likely then I suppose L21 must have some story that links between its Alpine P312 roots and its own more northern distribution. My hunch is that there will be a true P312* trail somewhere around the north-west Alps, Rhine etc. From somewhere like the western Alps such a clade could have particularly followed the Rhine and the Loire from their upper reaches. Unfortunatley the beaker story is complex and diverse in that zone and does not fit a simple zoning of either central European or Iberian beaker. Even if L21 doesnt have a pre-beaker story of its own, its own ancestral late P312* line, parallel to early DF27 in the south-west/U152 in the Alps, must have a pre-beaker story within a model of a pre-beaker origin for P312. By definition it has the same ancestor as the other two lines. So, following the concept of P312 spreading along the Alps and west Med by 3000BC it seems likely that pre-L21 was a lineage that moved into a position slighly off the track where DF27 and U152 ruled the roost. I tend to think the genesis of the lineage may have been in a P312* group that had been located around the Alps since 3000BC, perhaps on its northern side, and took up beaker culture in the period just before 2600BC which the influences of the latter penetrated into the Alps. The most likely beaker group linked to the move north would be the Rhine ones which also were influential in the isles and NW France.

As I posted before, I dont think differing burial traditions within that zone should be focussed on as much as they sometimes are because in general the beaker groups did tend to echo previous traditions wherever they settled. I also think the current L21 distribution is a misleading remanant as it probably has had a large hold knocked out of it by later U106 movements from the north and probably too by U152 elements from central Europe which maybe got stronger as central European influences increased influence in the north-west in the late Bronze Age and Iron Ages. L21 does still have a modest but significant showing in parts of Belgium, NE France etc and there are clearly pockers of it in the middle Rhine/Rhineland area too that show up well in hobbiest testing. The evidence of the great strength of L21 in the pre-Germanic isles populations also suggests the L21 domination of the coasts facing the isles once extended to the Rhine. The beaker pot in the isles and also to a degree in NW France is closest to the Rhine types. So, although the trace has been greatly diminished by later groups, I think a link with the Rhine groups and their offshoots in the isles and northern France is the most likely one for L21. I suspect that England recieved their beaker directly from the Rhine while Ireland and perhaps parts of western Britain recieved it from the same area but via a short stay in NW France.

In the pre-beaker c. 3200BC P312 model we seem to be looking at a number of P312 lineages who were already set in place around the Alps in pre-beaker times and only recieved beaker cultural influences in a sort of limited reflux of their distant DF27 cousins from Iberia C. 2700BC to Italy that did not effect the ylines massively, with diminishing impact the further we come from Iberia. That certainly fits the clade patterns.

So the question for me is the need to understand the genesis of the Rhine beaker groups and how these people recieved beaker cultural influences from further south but did not take on a yDNA pattern that was identical to them. It seems likely to me that L21 was a local Alpine pre-beaker copper age lineage that was either influenced or intergrated by the southern beaker groups that penetrated into the western Alps as seen at Sion. Clearly Remedello influenced groups existed there in pre-beaker times and if they were R1b people it seems unlikely to me that they were DF27 folks. I would guess that they were more likely to be P312* peoples if they were not U152. Somewhere in this jumble it seems possible that L21 or its immediately ancestral lineage headed to the Rhine from somewhere around this area.

alan
08-07-2013, 03:00 PM
This recent paper tends to support the Rhenish link being dominant in the isles. It also interestingly does suggest quite a lot of central European influence on the Rhenish group. Unfortunately he does not speculate about the deepest origins of beaker as he is a believer in the Dutch model.

http://www.academia.edu/2122469/Polythetic_networks_coherent_people._A_new_histori cal_hypothesis_for_the_Bell_Beaker_Phenomenon

I posted before about my feeling that Wedge tombs in Ireland, a type which dates to the beaker era, in some way resemble heavy duty above-ground cists, They do not have a design or much excavation evidence for collective burial as opposed to later reuse centuries down the line. Interestingly, I was reading the megalithic survey of Ireland, an old publication, and it also at that time stated that they believe the evidence did not show that they were intended for reuse. I also have stated that the other, perhaps more indigenous pre-beaker burial form that continued into the beaker period was also a single pit token cremation burial tradition. So, the evidence of collective type burial traditions in beaker period Ireland is very poor and when you see maps extending the beaker collective megalith zone into Ireland that is based on poor understanding of the evidence.

I had previously look to France for Irish beaker origins but I am not so sure that is likely given the pottery and other traits. I found this recent article on beaker in France

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Late+neolithic+and+beaker+France.-a0268601267

The book and chapters are behind a paywall. However it does seem that individual burial of the usual beaker type is well known in northern France now and that this area was influenced from the east.

Seems to me that wedge tombs are just another typical case of Ireland taking in peoples and influences and then changing them to make up something unique not know previously in Ireland or anywhere else. Ireland also did this in the later Mesolithic and Iron Age too and I think that is a lot to do with being an island off an island. Overall I am convinced Ireland is just a quirky member of the Rhenish-Isles group. I suspect this also includes part of northern France but the paywall is stopping me reading into this.

That is important because L21 is the main clade strongly associated with pre-Germanic peoples in Britain. If its linked to beaker then by default it is linked to the Rhine beaker group because that and its derivatives is the main area of contact for British beaker. That would place L21 among this group. So, the origins of this group is very interesting to L21. Problem is that a lot of the papers written on this are by believers in the Dutch model so they do not feel the need to look elsewhere for origins.

GoldenHind
08-07-2013, 11:39 PM
Not that I think P312 originated in Iberia, because I don't, but let's be fair - the last count of FTDNA samples from the British Isles and Ireland was at ~75,000 and the combined total for Spain and Portugal was ~4,900. By all accounts, P312** is probably just as uncommon in the isles as it is in Iberia, France, etc.

As for DYS492=14, it is a key value for the U152+ Z56+ group.

You certainly have a valid point about the enormous disparity in the FTDNA database between the British Isles and most of the continent. I have pointed that out recently in the thread on L21 in Wales.

But every time I read someone talking about P312** in Iberia, I feel compelled to point out that none has been found there yet in the FTDNA database. All indications are that the R1b-P312 in Iberia which is not L21 or U152 is DF27. Some P312** has been found in other countries which are also under represented compared to the British Isles, such as Belgium, France (Normandy), Russia and Italy. This could just be the luck of the draw.

You have access to a great deal more data than I do, so I have no reason to doubt you, but I would be very surprised if there is any significant amount of P312** in Iberia. Of course there may not be a significant amount of it anywhere.

alan
08-08-2013, 01:36 AM
I think examples of this could be relate to ancestral lines to L21. Its apparently a little younger than DF27 and U152


You certainly have a valid point about the enormous disparity in the FTDNA database between the British Isles and most of the continent. I have pointed that out recently in the thread on L21 in Wales.

But every time I read someone talking about P312** in Iberia, I feel compelled to point out that none has been found there yet in the FTDNA database. All indications are that the R1b-P312 in Iberia which is not L21 or U152 is DF27. Some P312** has been found in other countries which are also under represented compared to the British Isles, such as Belgium, France (Normandy), Russia and Italy. This could just be the luck of the draw.

You have access to a great deal more data than I do, so I have no reason to doubt you, but I would be very surprised if there is any significant amount of P312** in Iberia. Of course there may not be a significant amount of it anywhere.

TigerMW
08-08-2013, 01:13 PM
Not that I think P312 originated in Iberia, because I don't, but let's be fair - the last count of FTDNA samples from the British Isles and Ireland was at ~75,000 and the combined total for Spain and Portugal was ~4,900. By all accounts, P312** is probably just as uncommon in the isles as it is in Iberia, France, etc.


But every time I read someone talking about P312** in Iberia, I feel compelled to point out that none has been found there yet in the FTDNA database. ...
You have access to a great deal more data than I do, so I have no reason to doubt you, but I would be very surprised if there is any significant amount of P312** in Iberia. Of course there may not be a significant amount of it anywhere.

I say, as would any good project administrator, there is no reason to wonder about this issue. It can be resolved. If anyone wants to donate money to test Iberian P312+ people for DF27, we could use it. :)

GoldenHind
08-08-2013, 07:40 PM
I say, as would any good project administrator, there is no reason to wonder about this issue. It can be resolved. If anyone wants to donate money to test Iberian P312+ people for DF27, we could use it. :)

I am all for further testing, but I don't have much doubt about it. I just went through the public list of DF27+ in the P312 results pages and made a quick calculation of those with Iberian origins or new world Hispanic surnames.

DF27: 66
P312**: 1 (this is the person who says his ancestor was a Flemish merchant who settled in Spain in the 17C, so really shouldn't count as having an Iberian origin)

I don't think there are any of Iberian origin in the DF19 list yet, so if we exclude the Flemish P312** entry, that indicates that 66 of 66 people of probable Iberian origin who have tested for DF27 got positive results. Pretty good odds.

I am not suggesting there is no P312** in Iberia. I would be surprised if that were the case. I just don't think there is a significant number. Whether P312** turns out to be more plentiful in England than Iberia awaits a time when testing in Iberia matches that in Britain, which may never happen.

However we have hijacked the U152 in Sardinia thread, so we should cease this or move it elsewhere.

MitchellSince1893
08-08-2013, 10:12 PM
I thought it was interesting that L2+ Z49+ L562+ made up 60% of L2+ and 100% of Z49+.

In Mikewww7's Haplotype Data for R1b-P312xL21 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes.zip L562+ makes up:

1% of L2,
12% of Z49,
23% of Z142

Yet in this study there is no Z142+ L562-

R.Rocca
08-09-2013, 12:47 PM
I thought it was interesting that L2+ Z49+ L562+ made up 60% of L2+ and 100% of Z49+.

In Mikewww7's Haplotype Data for R1b-P312xL21 https://dl.dropbox.com/u/17907527/R1b-P312xL21_Haplotypes.zip L562+ makes up:

1% of L2,
12% of Z49,
23% of Z142

Yet in this study there is no Z142+ L562-

Yes, I thought that was interesting as well. Another example of how deceiving FTDNA testing bias is, where most of the L562 samples are from the isles.

All in all, we only have two FTDNA U152 samples from Sardinia and yet it is slightly more frequent there than in the isles. One is almost certainly Z56 and the other might even be Z192.

Titus Valerius
08-11-2013, 05:58 AM
Hi All,
I was wondering if in the Belgium study were found some L20+ people

Bolgeris
08-11-2013, 08:43 AM
Ciao,
concerning the study of prof. Francalacci and distribution of U152 in Sardinia..

I think that we should make some clarifications / considerations:

- Northern of Sardinia, called "Gallura" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallura, speak a dialect of Corso-Toscano and not the Sardinian language http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallurese_language;
605

- In the North of Sardinia also physical types are different from those of the Center's "Barbagia" and the South "Campidano", where the language is spoken Sardinian;

606

- If the U152 to Francalacci are in the majority of Gallura may very well be the source Liguria-Tuscany?!?;
- The Corsica was dominated for centuries from Liguria and the dialect Corso spoken is a Tuscan;

I think two hypotheses about the U152 in Sardinia:

The U152 without the SNP L2 are of ancestral origin Ligurian?! Tuscany?!

Those few who are L2 or L20 are of Celtic origin (also Cisalpine Gauls) or Lombard?

About L20+...
I would like to recall that the other few L20 in Italy are all in areas of colonization Lombard ..

For example, in South Italy .. Benevento .. was a Lombard Duchy ..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Benevento
and the town of L'aquila near to Spoleto other Lombard Duchy..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Spoleto

and of course the fact that the villages of origin of L20+ Bolgeri / Belgieri (in Lombardy) and L20+ Grassi in Liguria are of colonization Lombard ..

To think.. about.
Ciao a tutti..

Diana
08-13-2013, 01:41 AM
Someone please help me understand the migratory path for, Z56, Z144/Z145/Z146. Did it originate in Sardinia, Umbria, Tuscany, or we simply don't know still?

Did it come from the North of Italy down to Central Italy and over to Sardinia or did it start in Sardinia and cross over? Thank you.

mafe
08-14-2013, 08:48 AM
23407934 is "sort of" new (a.k.a. CTS11993) in that it had previously been found in a single 1000 Genomes U152* sample from Tuscany. CTS11993 is not available for test via Geno 2.0 nor FTDNA.

23119461 is new.

What does it take (for a new snp like CTS11993) to become an FTDNA advanced order snp? 7% of overall (Sardinian) U152 seems significant to me, especially as it is also found in a different study.

R.Rocca
08-14-2013, 11:27 AM
What does it take (for a new snp like CTS11993) to become an FTDNA advanced order snp? 7% of overall (Sardinian) U152 seems significant to me, especially as it is also found in a different study.

It is a lengthy process and the most difficult thing is checking to see a primer is even possible for the SNP. The other is competing priorities at FTDNA.

mafe
08-16-2013, 06:52 PM
I’m pretty new to genetic genealogy so I’m not familiar yet with the science behind all of this.

I read somewhere that the WTY-project has come to a bit of a standstill due to full Y sequencing. I might be wrong but isn’t FTDNA going to miss the boat if they don’t speed up processes and embrace new SNPs found in recent studies especially now that their own “well” is running dry?

On the other hand, I can understand why FTDNA isn’t too keen on making new SNPs available because it will decrease the shelf life of the Geno 2.0 chip.

MitchellSince1893
08-16-2013, 08:15 PM
What does it take (for a new snp like CTS11993) to become an FTDNA advanced order snp? 7% of overall (Sardinian) U152 seems significant to me, especially as it is also found in a different study.

I keep waiting for FTDNA to make snp Z150 available to order.

mafe
08-18-2013, 09:07 AM
I keep waiting for FTDNA to make snp Z150 available to order.

It's probably not on their priority list as Z150 is also on the Geno 2.0 chip.

MitchellSince1893
08-22-2013, 11:30 PM
It's probably not on their priority list as Z150 is also on the Geno 2.0 chip.
That's too bad...can't really justify the cost of 2.0 when I really just need a Z150 snp test. I was hoping there was some level at FTDNA that triggered the availability of a new snp

e.g. once there are 20 people in the Z142* group they would make Z150 available.

I could be wrong but I don't see a lot of Z142* folks paying for a Geno 2.0 test just to find out whether we are Z150+; especially if they've already done the FTNDA deep clade test. It would be far cheaper to go a la carte.

JMO.

mafe
09-02-2013, 08:01 AM
I heard that Thomas and Astrid Krahn are no longer with FTDNA, so I've got a funny feeling that ordering single SNPs is going to be a thing of the past in the near future.

Solothurn
11-16-2013, 06:09 PM
Does anybody know if Chromo2 or the Big Y tests for 23407934 and 23119461 ??

mafe
11-16-2013, 06:51 PM
Does anybody know if Chromo2 or the Big Y tests for 23407934 and 23119461 ??

Chromo2 probably doesn't test these SNPs because their focus is on Northern European SNPs, and because they use their own S-series SNPs we probably won't find out anyway.

If these SNPs are in the region sequenced by BIG Y they will probably be reported, atm it is impossible to say if they do and it might vary between kits anyway. Someone told me once I look a bit like Christopher Meloni, so that increases my chance of testing positive for a Sardinian SNP with 0,1 % :)

mafe
11-23-2013, 07:25 PM
Could it be that PF6658 is also the parent group of the U152*(Z192-) samples in this study?