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George Chandler
08-29-2017, 03:14 AM
I wish someone would hurry up and pull YDNA from the remains (meaning the suspected Ivar skeleton) and make it public!. I would be surprised if the remains weren't I1a even if he wasn't in fact Ivar the Boneless.

George

08-29-2017, 08:43 AM
Yes I would definitely like a breakdown of the subclades of the Vikings, and not just their Haplogroups

Dibran
10-09-2017, 04:47 PM
I wish someone would hurry up and pull YDNA from the remains (meaning the suspected Ivar skeleton) and make it public!. I would be surprised if the remains weren't I1a even if he wasn't in fact Ivar the Boneless.

George

Any likelihood he could have been Z284? I have read in a few placed that they suspect the line of Ragnar Sigurdsson/Lothbrok to be R1a-Z284. Would make sense no? If we assume the indo-europeans who brought the norse language were Z284, perhaps Ragnar was considering his claim to descent from Odin, who probably wasn't I1, assuming Odin was a real person personified as a God. I suppose time will tell.

Adrian Stevenson
10-14-2017, 10:56 AM
I would love to know the answer too.

Repton is just down the road from me and I drive through it everyday on my commute to work.

Cheers, Ade.

George Chandler
10-14-2017, 06:57 PM
Any likelihood he could have been Z284? I have read in a few placed that they suspect the line of Ragnar Sigurdsson/Lothbrok to be R1a-Z284. Would make sense no? If we assume the indo-europeans who brought the norse language were Z284, perhaps Ragnar was considering his claim to descent from Odin, who probably wasn't I1, assuming Odin was a real person personified as a God. I suppose time will tell.

I sincerely have no idea what haplogroup Ragnar Lothbrok or his male descendants belonged to so R1a is not out of the question. Trying to pull apart a lineage in the past 1,000 years is hard enough but going back another 800 years is almost impossible other than in rare cases. If you look at the De Falaise line the "should be" male line descendants of Bjorn Ironside. Some suspect that William the Conquer's maternal Grandfather the "Tanner" came from this male line. There is still so much doubt or speculation regarding who Ragnar sons were..even though records confirm Bjorn, Ivar, Ubba..ect there were a couple that were couple suspected of being Frille Born too. The whole thing with Odin in terms of having been a real person who lived in the 3rd to 5th century AD out of ancient Saxony and was the father of both the Saxon/Wesex male line and Lothbroks is possible I guess...but again unless you have the bones of Alfred the Great tested and find some sort of close genetic connection the bones of a certified descendant of Ragnar (or open a grave in York and find a skeleton with a bunch of snakes?)...you can't really say. There is usually a speck of truth in most lore you just have to find it.

George

Dibran
10-15-2017, 04:46 PM
I sincerely have no idea what haplogroup Ragnar Lothbrok or his male descendants belonged to so R1a is not out of the question. Trying to pull apart a lineage in the past 1,000 years is hard enough but going back another 800 years is almost impossible other than in rare cases. If you look at the De Falaise line the "should be" male line descendants of Bjorn Ironside. Some suspect that William the Conquer's maternal Grandfather the "Tanner" came from this male line. There is still so much doubt or speculation regarding who Ragnar sons were..even though records confirm Bjorn, Ivar, Ubba..ect there were a couple that were couple suspected of being Frille Born too. The whole thing with Odin in terms of having been a real person who lived in the 3rd to 5th century AD out of ancient Saxony and was the father of both the Saxon/Wesex male line and Lothbroks is possible I guess...but again unless you have the bones of Alfred the Great tested and find some sort of close genetic connection the bones of a certified descendant of Ragnar (or open a grave in York and find a skeleton with a bunch of snakes?)...you can't really say. There is usually a speck of truth in most lore you just have to find it.

George

Thank you for the input. I did not know Odin was the supposed ancestor of Saxons too. I imagine Saxons were overwhelmingly R1b? Perhaps Odin was a cultural ancestor of the cultures, but the one father of all the male lines? I guess thats possible to considering genetics and spread of Y.

George Chandler
10-15-2017, 05:04 PM
The lore is that he was supposed to have been the ancestor of line of Wessex too out of ancient Saxony. You can sort of take it for what it is. I have suspected that Wessex was "maybe" R-U106 but again it was only a suspicion and that doesn't mean there is anything which actually connects Ragnar to that line. If I recall the ancient Saxons also followed Odin (don't quote me on that) so I believe you're correct about the ancestor of cultures so to speak. Right now I haven't seen much in the way of any hard evidence other than lore and historical documents which may help to shed light on it? The De Falaise ancestry is interesting if true...

Curleyprow
10-15-2017, 05:13 PM
Thank you for the input. I did not know Odin was the supposed ancestor of Saxons too. I imagine Saxons were overwhelmingly R1b? Perhaps Odin was a cultural ancestor of the cultures, but the one father of all the male lines? I guess thats possible to considering genetics and spread of Y.


Yes, prior to Christianity, the Anglo-Saxons worshiped Woden or Woten which was the same god known to the Norse as Odin.

spruithean
10-15-2017, 09:10 PM
Yes, prior to Christianity, the Anglo-Saxons worshiped Woden or Woten which was the same god known to the Norse as Odin.

Indeed, though there is the distinct possibility that Woden wasn't quite the same as Odin, at least in what each respective deity was responsible for. Odin had a longer time to develop within a relatively isolated Northern Germanic paganism while Woden and the other Anglo-Saxon gods were sort of lost to the Christianization of the Anglo-Saxons.

There is a decent amount of evidence that places Anglo-Saxon paganism well within a Germanic pagan area, examples such as Franks Casket, place names, etc.

George Chandler
10-15-2017, 09:24 PM
The Angles who arrived off the coast of Britain near York around 420 AD were known as Woden (Odin) Folk so I would suspect they were one and the same. He (Odin) could have been an actual heroic warrior or figure from pervious centuries who the tribes diafied and it spread through the religion. I've often wondered though if the lore of both the Wessex line and Ragnar being connected by Odin was some sort of political way for Wessex to cook the genealogy in order to either show they were blood relatives and as descendants of Odin as it may make negotiations easier or possibly discourage raiding?

kostoffj
10-16-2017, 02:37 AM
Thank you for the input. I did not know Odin was the supposed ancestor of Saxons too. I imagine Saxons were overwhelmingly R1b? Perhaps Odin was a cultural ancestor of the cultures, but the one father of all the male lines? I guess thats possible to considering genetics and spread of Y.

Don't overthink this. It was common practice in many cultures for kings to claim divine descent, in various ways, in order to justify their right to rule.

George Chandler
10-17-2017, 12:04 AM
As far as I know Ragnar was the only Viking who claimed descent from Odin (or any other god)...but I could be wrong.

Grossvater
10-17-2017, 02:22 AM
The Angles who arrived off the coast of Britain near York around 420 AD were known as Woden (Odin) Folk so I would suspect they were one and the same. He (Odin) could have been an actual heroic warrior or figure from pervious centuries who the tribes diafied and it spread through the religion. I've often wondered though if the lore of both the Wessex line and Ragnar being connected by Odin was some sort of political way for Wessex to cook the genealogy in order to either show they were blood relatives and as descendants of Odin as it may make negotiations easier or possibly discourage raiding?

I've read that Snorri Sturleson (1179-1241), the great Icelandic poet and historian believed that the old Norse myths and gods were based on real people and events that had been embellished over the centuries. Maybe old Snorri was on to something...

uintah106
10-17-2017, 12:49 PM
Speaking of viking y dna, has there been any news on the Winchester cathedral mortuary chests. I believe the university of Bristol was running tests on those bones. Supposedly the chests contain the remains of Canute the great and his son Harthacanute.

George Chandler
10-18-2017, 03:50 AM
I haven't heard anything. It would be really interesting to see those results as well.

George Chandler
10-19-2017, 12:30 AM
Speaking of viking y dna, has there been any news on the Winchester cathedral mortuary chests. I believe the university of Bristol was running tests on those bones. Supposedly the chests contain the remains of Canute the great and his son Harthacanute.

Checked into it but not much is being said..the problem is that they still (at least that I've read) don't know for sure who's bones were who's? They were strewn about and mixed up centuries ago and then replaced back into burial boxes. If they figure out Rufus then they add another step closer to Rollo's DNA haplogroup. If they've done something with it they've been pretty tight lipped. The only other test that I was aware of was the Hyde 900 test of Alfred's suspected hip bone and all they were able to tell was that the carbon dating showed it was from about that period.

Saetro
10-24-2017, 12:28 AM
Ah, Rollo
I know all Europeans have him as an ancestor, but with paper connections to known descendants and after the TV series Vikings, I find it hard not to be interested in Rollo.
But it would be cruel to get us excited over one set of bones picked out of a mixed bag.

George Chandler
10-24-2017, 12:48 AM
Ah, Rollo
I know all Europeans have him as an ancestor, but with paper connections to known descendants and after the TV series Vikings, I find it hard not to be interested in Rollo.
But it would be cruel to get us excited over one set of bones picked out of a mixed bag.

It's probably why nothing has been said (if any testing has actually been done). There was a lot of anticipation regarding the bones of his descendants which turned out to be a disappointment.

A very interesting historical figure indeed.

ADW_1981
10-24-2017, 02:15 AM
Thank you for the input. I did not know Odin was the supposed ancestor of Saxons too. I imagine Saxons were overwhelmingly R1b? Perhaps Odin was a cultural ancestor of the cultures, but the one father of all the male lines? I guess thats possible to considering genetics and spread of Y.

Hengist, the first king of Kent and Horsa claimed descent from the chieftain. Thus, the ancestor would be in Germany or Denmark I suppose if he was a Jute, if that's where they allegedly originated, but I have seen this challenged. He's just one guy, unlikely the ancestor of every Germanic speaking male. I've yet to see any evidence that warrior chieftains truly procreated more than anyone else, especially in times of discord and instability, these lineages should gradually die out. Bastards had no advantage, and warriors were hardly lounging around lusting all day. It simply doesn't make any sense.

Paul333
10-26-2017, 06:18 PM
Regarding Ragnar Lothbroke, he is still a legendary figure, and his being cannot be proved, unlike 'the sons of Ragnar lothbroke who are documented and arrived with the great Army AD 865 (AS Chronical ). Regarding descent from the Saxon Kings, This is quite easily proved by documents back to the Wessex King Ecgbert, grandfather to 'Alfred the great'. ( the Queen and many hundreds of others in the UK and abroad are proven direct descendants )I think the Hyde Abby remains that may produce DNA from the hip bone may be alfreds or a son, Genetic technology is moving that fast it wont take too long to begin producing results from the Saxon Royal line. Hengest may be mentioned in the epic poem 'Bewulf', and connected to the East Angle Wuffingas's Royal Family, buried at Sutton Hoo, and thought to of originated from the Vendel period, around the Uppsala area of Sweden.

Paul333
10-26-2017, 06:58 PM
Ah, Rollo
I know all Europeans have him as an ancestor, but with paper connections to known descendants and after the TV series Vikings, I find it hard not to be interested in Rollo.
But it would be cruel to get us excited over one set of bones picked out of a mixed bag.

I think a group of Norwegens, undertook DNA tests in france in early 2016,from Rollo's Grandson Richard the fearless, and his son, to settle his origins,as both Denmark and Norway were claiming him as one of their own. As yet nothing heard as to results.

jdean
10-26-2017, 07:15 PM
I think a group of Norwegens, undertook DNA tests in france in early 2016,from Rollo's Grandson Richard the fearless, and his son, to settle his origins,as both Denmark and Norway were claiming him as one of their own. As yet nothing heard as to results.

Unfortunately it turned out they were the wrong remains

Skeletal shock for Norwegian researchers at Viking hunting (http://explicofund.org/normandy-skeletal-shock-for-norwegian-researchers-at-viking-hunting/)

Paul333
10-26-2017, 07:21 PM
Shame, a wasted effort, The Danes and Norwegens will have to wait a bit longer it seems.

George Chandler
10-26-2017, 10:27 PM
Regarding Ragnar Lothbroke, he is still a legendary figure, and his being cannot be proved, unlike 'the sons of Ragnar lothbroke who are documented and arrived with the great Army AD 865 (AS Chronical ). Regarding descent from the Saxon Kings, This is quite easily proved by documents back to the Wessex King Ecgbert, grandfather to 'Alfred the great'. ( the Queen and many hundreds of others in the UK and abroad are proven direct descendants )I think the Hyde Abby remains that may produce DNA from the hip bone may be alfreds or a son, Genetic technology is moving that fast it wont take too long to begin producing results from the Saxon Royal line. Hengest may be mentioned in the epic poem 'Bewulf', and connected to the East Angle Wuffingas's Royal Family, buried at Sutton Hoo, and thought to of originated from the Vendel period, around the Uppsala area of Sweden.

It will be interesting if and when they get Y DNA from the ancient remains..all we can do until then is hurry up and wait.

angscoire
10-28-2017, 09:14 PM
It will be interesting if and when they get Y DNA from the ancient remains..all we can do until then is hurry up and wait.

There is a big Viking DNA paper due in 2018 or 2019 from Copenhagen University.

Jean M
10-28-2017, 10:24 PM
I have read in a few placed that they suspect the line of Ragnar Sigurdsson/Lothbrok to be R1a-Z284.

There is no evidence that the Ivarr who made conquests in Britain and Ireland was of the line of Ragnar, who in any case is less than historial. Ívarr and his brothers Óláfr, Ásl and Halfdan campaigned in both Britain and Ireland. Their attacks were orchestrated by a leadership of royal descent. Since Norway had no royalty when Ívarr and his family appeared, this points to the Danes. Ívarr and his brothers were probably the sons of Godfrid, son of Harald Klak, briefly king of Denmark 812-814. Late attempts to weave Óláfr and Ívarr into the royal line of Norway or the saga of Ragnarr Loðbrók, legendary king of Denmark, are unconvincing.

Jean M
10-28-2017, 10:35 PM
Thank you for the input. I did not know Odin was the supposed ancestor of Saxons too. I imagine Saxons were overwhelmingly R1b?

Woden (equivalent of Odin) appears only in the pedigrees of royal Anglo-Saxon families. This appears to be because this god was perceived as having the attributes of an ideal leader. By the time such pedigrees were written down, Christianity made it impolitic to recognise Woden/Odin as divine, so he was presented as a human ancestor figure.

The only Y-DNA that has been published so far from Anglo-Saxon ancient DNA was I1. Other haplogroups are expected to include R1b-U106, but let's wait until we get them.

George Chandler
10-29-2017, 05:51 PM
There is no evidence that the Ivarr who made conquests in Britain and Ireland was of the line of Ragnar, who in any case is less than historial. Ívarr and his brothers Óláfr, Ásl and Halfdan campaigned in both Britain and Ireland. Their attacks were orchestrated by a leadership of royal descent. Since Norway had no royalty when Ívarr and his family appeared, this points to the Danes. Ívarr and his brothers were probably the sons of Godfrid, son of Harald Klak, briefly king of Denmark 812-814. Late attempts to weave Óláfr and Ívarr into the royal line of Norway or the saga of Ragnarr Loðbrók, legendary king of Denmark, are unconvincing.

I've never seen anything which connects the Munso Yline to a Royal Norwegian Y line. I can see the argument for Bjorn Ironside and his descendants but a bit harder to prove in terms of the other brothers. If you go by the old norse story of Ragnar's sons they are included..but so is a giant snake and the scenario leads Ragnar to wearing hair pants. I personally don't discount Ivar the Boneless as a son of Lothbrok but the story has less credibility. Personally I think the name Lothbrok came from having really hairy legs as a child. If you look at some of the names given to Vikings they were usually less than flattering and I think they like to tease each other quite a bit and the labels just stuck. Maybe it was to make them have a thinker skin in life. Sometimes we think that Rollo was the main player in the second raid on Paris but the invasion was led by Jarl's Sigfreid and Sigurd with Rollo playing a lesser role in the attack. Very little is known about these two Jarl's and you hardly ever hear about them. History can get twisted a bit over time.

George

George Chandler
10-29-2017, 06:03 PM
I've often wondered if that story about fighting the giant snake was around even at the time of Ragnar and that's why King Aella chose the pit of vipers saying "So you you fight snakes...lets see how you do with these."

Jean M
10-29-2017, 09:19 PM
History can get twisted a bit over time.

I go into the lineage of Ívarr in Ancestral Journeys, expanding a bit on the excellent work of Clare Downham:


In 851 a new enemy appeared on the horizon - the Dubh-gaill (dark foreigners), who arrived in force and ousted their rivals the Finn-gaill (fair foreigners) from Duiblinn (Dublin.) There is a long tradition of interpreting the dark foreigners as Danes and the fair ones as Norwegians. Significantly the term Dubhgaill in the annals is consistently linked to the dynasty of Ívarr (the Uí Ímhair). [Downham 2008, xvi-xvii, 14-15.] ...

In later centuries colourful tales clustered around the leaders of the Uí Ímhair. There were unconvincing attempts to weave Óláfr and Ívarr into the royal line of Norway. They also appear in the saga of Ragnarr Loðbrók, legendary king of Denmark, as his sons Óláfr the white and Ívarr the boneless.* Historian Clare Downham has painstakingly picked fact from fiction to piece together what is really known about them. Ívarr (Ímar in Irish) and his brothers Óláfr, Ásl and Halfdan campaigned fiercely on both sides of the Irish Sea. Their impact was so great that when Ívarr died in 873, the Annals of Ulster described him as king of all the Northmen in Ireland and Britain. Where had they come from? Óláfr (Amlaíb in Irish) was described on his arrival in Ireland in 853 as the son of the king of Laithlinde. That links him to a previous entry in the annals. In 848 a Viking leader was slain in battle in Leinster. He was acting as a deputy for the self-same mysterious king of Laithlind. Much ink has been spilt arguing the whereabouts of this kingdom. In later sources Lochland meant Norway, [Downham 2008, 12-16.] but Norway had no king at this time. Nor would people from Norway be different from previous Norse arrivals. Much the same objections can be made to the argument that Laithlinde refers to Norse settlers in the Northern Isles.[Ó Corráin 1998. For archaeological criticism of the idea of early settlement in Atlantic Scotland see Barrett 2008.]

The dynasty of Ívarr introduced a new Viking modus operandi to the British Isles. Instead of the hit-and-run raid, they exacted tribute. Furthermore the attacks were orchestrated by a royal leadership. This points indeed to the Danes. Horic, king of Denmark (d. 854), used exactly those tactics, as did his father Guðröðr (Godfrid). Ívarr and his kin could muster great numbers of ships and fighting men, which again suggests the relatively populous southern Scandinavia as the source. However Horic was not accused of involvement in the campaigns of Ívarr and his brothers and is unlikely to be their progenitor. The throne of Denmark was repeatedly disputed after the death of Godfrid in 810, so there was another royal line at large and able to recruit from Denmark. It starts with Harald Klak, seemingly the son of a Halfdan who was an envoy from the Danish court to Charlemagne. Harald and his brothers seized the throne in 812, only to be expelled in 814. Harald returned as a co-regent with the sons of Godfrid in 818, but fled to the Frankish court in 823, seeking support to bolster his claim to the throne. Harald's base from 826 was Rüstringen in northeast Frisia, granted to him by the Franks. The History of St Cuthbert specifically associates Ubba, Duke of the Frisians, with the Great Army of Danes which entered East Anglia in 865, led by the dynasty of Ívarr. Elsewhere Ubba is given as another brother of Ívarr.[Woolfe 71-73; Coupland 1998.] The saga elements embedded in the fragmentary Annals of Ireland record that that Ívarr's father was a Gofraid of royal descent.[Fragmentary Annals of Ireland, 401: 'Imar son of Gothfraid son of Ragnall son of Gothfraid Conung son of Gofraid.' Conung is from the Old Norse konungr, meaning 'king'.] Although this late material is unreliable, the name Godfrid does appear repeatedly in the dynasty of Ívarr. Also Óláfr had a son named Carlus, and the Sword of Carlus was part of the royal insignia in Dublin. This suggests a connection with one of the Frankish kings named Charles.[Downham 2008, 3, 7-8, 253-54.] Harald Klak's son Godfrid continued the long association with the Frankish court which had begun with his grandfather Halfdan.[Coupland 1998. ] So Ívarr and his brothers were probably the sons of Godfrid, son of Harald Klak.


* Note that the epithet "the boneless" never appears in the contemporary material from Britain or Ireland.

George Chandler
10-30-2017, 12:24 AM
An interesting read. I was always under the impression that this Ivar (because it never added the title of boneless) was in fact another Ivar. I
n the same way there are some different historical "Ragnar's" cited with some saying "Lothbrok" some not and some suggesting he died at the hands of Aella and some suggesting he died in battle. It would be interesting if what you wrote is true and the Gofraid Ivar was the same person as Ivar the boneless.

Jean M
10-30-2017, 08:19 AM
It would be interesting if what you wrote is true and the Gofraid Ivar was the same person as Ivar the boneless.

No I don't think that the real, historical Ívarr was exactly the same person as the fictional Ivar the boneless in the Ragnar sagas. It appears that the historical Ívarr and some of his historical brothers were woven into Viking sagas as men of Danish royal descent who made conquests in England, and that eventually someone uncertain of their real genealogy melded them into a Ragnar story, creating the Tale of Ragnar's Sons. The historian Saxo tried to make sense of the stories of Ragnar in his 12th-century Gesta Danorum, drawing together a number of tales that probably related to different historical people.

It is all a mess really, so it is best to get back to the contemporary sources for the events in England and Ireland, such as the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle and Irish annals.

Paul333
11-15-2017, 01:06 AM
I've often wondered if that story about fighting the giant snake was around even at the time of Ragnar and that's why King Aella chose the pit of vipers saying "So you you fight snakes...lets see how you do with these."

There is a local rhym/legend called the Lambton Worm, still sung today in Nursery schools etc in Co Durham, Northern England, part of ancient Northumbria. It is representative of a giant worm,its believed to be from the age of the viking settlements, or invasions of 9th & 10th century Northumbria. It is often refered to a giant Snake or Dragon. I think it may be refering to the viking 'Orm' English 'Worm'. 'Pit of snakes could refer to the type of men that killed him ( Ragnar Lothbroke ) In other words it could of meant a low opinion of his killers or a betrayal in or by a Pit of Snakes,'Group of people' or refering to the city of ' York' or another town 'as a pit of snakes in Anglo Saxon England. The age was full of similar meanings they often were not 'literally descriptive'. The North East still retains a viking/Anglian dialect and possibly memories of events of that time. Although it may of changed over the years, to what it is now a local legend it may of been based on the story, and other thinking is that the snakes/dragon/worm were representing and describing Vikings,and the Worm dragon Snake represented a viking ship,with its dragon like prow, such legends and historic memories of events still survive today, often, as modern or local nursery songs, similar one is London Bridge is falling Down, believed to be based on the Viking attack on the London bridge, viking Axes weapons including grappling hooks were found in the river at the site of London Bridge.

George Chandler
11-17-2017, 02:54 AM
It's interesting that "Jormungand" was supposed to have also played a part in the early Germanic tribes too. What was the big difference in their early religious beliefs as they also shared Odin/Woden too?

Paul333
11-21-2017, 07:52 PM
It's interesting that "Jormungand" was supposed to have also played a part in the early Germanic tribes too. What was the big difference in their early religious beliefs as they also shared Odin/Woden too?

" Orm " could also of been the Personal name of the actual Viking leader, of a raid, and may form the root, or basis of the original rhyme,( the Lambton Worm ). There is a famous Inscription on Kirkdale Church, Rydale Yorkshire ( St Gregory's ) Sun Dial, ( written by possibly Danes/Vikings who settled that part of Northumbria known as the Danelaw from the great Army of 865 AD. This 'Orm' was described as the son of 'Gamal', in King Edwards Day,( the Confessor died 1066) when Tostig was Earl, Tostig was forced to flee, sometime around 1065, and lost his earldom. Tostig Godwinson was later killed fighting alongside the Norwegen King Harald 'Hadrader' Sigurdson, at Stamford Bridge, in 1066AD by his Brothers Army ( Harold Godwinson died 1066 Hastings ).

In the 'Lambton Worm', he was supposedly to have wrapped himself around 'Penshaw Hill,and also 'Worm Hill', on the banks of the river wear to the west of Sunderland, and it is very similar to the Norse/Viking legend with 'Jormungandr' wrapping himself around the earth biting his tail, letting go would bring about 'Ragnarok', the end of the world. The legends of the Lambtom Worm are so full of legends, which are very similar to viking legends, that many believe it to have a Viking origin.

Paul333
11-21-2017, 08:23 PM
The Scandinavian and Germanic God 'Odin,Woden, Wotan' is one and the same, he was a legendary war chief, who came from Asia Minor to Jutland, and left his son 'SKjold/Scyld' to rule, as Ancestor of the Royal Scyldings ( Kings of Denmark ). He is the ancestor of the Scandinavian/Germanic Royal families who all trace back to him ( Wotan/Woden/Odin ) He was first mentioned in written history with the Roman descriptions of the Germanic Tribes, and mentioned as the founder of their Royal lines in there genealogy. The legends of 'Odin' mainly come from the Norse Scandinavian histories.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
11-22-2017, 07:35 AM
Worm's Head Gower, South West Wales. There are a lot of Viking names around the Welsh Coast.

19910

Paul333
11-22-2017, 06:45 PM
Worm's Head Gower, South West Wales. There are a lot of Viking names around the Welsh Coast.

19910

Agree, I think there is also a lot of Scandinavian related DNA, found in areas of Coastal Wales. Regarding the references 'Worm' It seems there are many place name references, refering to Worm legends.

There is also yet another Worm legend in County Durham, the 'Sockburn Worm'. This has a religeous connection, which may also possibly relate to the viking attacks, of Northumbria. Sockburn is also on a peninsular bend of the river Tees, near to Darlington. Every new Bishop of Durham, traditionally has to cross the river here, and receive, 'the Conyers Sword', (Falchion ) which was used to slay the Worm, Its possibly related to Christianity defeating Viking paganism. There was an Anglo Saxon Monastery at Sockburn, prior to the viking attacks, and the sacking of which,and settlement of the surrounding areas, by the Vikings may be another reason for yet another legend of the Worm,( Serpent ).

11-22-2017, 07:00 PM
Agree, I think there is also a lot of Scandinavian related DNA, found in areas of Coastal Wales. Regarding the references 'Worm' It seems there are many place name references, refering to Worm legends.

There is also yet another Worm legend in County Durham, the 'Sockburn Worm'. This has a religeous connection, which may also possibly relate to the viking attacks, of Northumbria. Sockburn is also on a peninsular bend of the river Tees, near to Darlington. Every new Bishop of Durham, traditionally has to cross the river here, and receive, 'the Conyers Sword', (Falchion ) which was used to slay the Worm, Its possibly related to Christianity defeating Viking paganism. There was an Anglo Saxon Monastery at Sockburn, prior to the viking attacks, and the sacking of which,and settlement of the surrounding areas, by the Vikings may be another reason for yet another legend of the Worm,( Serpent ).

And just to add, The Great Orme, in North Wales.

corner
11-22-2017, 08:59 PM
For those in the UK, Digging For Britain is about to start on BBC Four. It features Repton camp.

Kamo
09-03-2019, 09:34 PM
Sorry, very late to this thread. Have not been on in a while. There apparently were Ydna discoveries of the 2 men buried next to each other at Repton but as of yet, they have not released their findings. The Viking warrior and a smaller skeleton next to him are said to be 'first person' related. Either a brother or a son. The man in the grave(with the Boar's tusk between his legs) is theorized to likely have been Amlaib Conung who was killed while trying to regain tribute from the Scots and his body brought to Repton to be buried with his fellows. Some believe Amlaib Conung and Olaf the White to be one and the same person and if I am not mistken, 'Amlaib" did in fact mean 'white'. I also think Downham and a few others have it finally figured out when it comes to the Finngaill Dubgaill issue. With the Fingaill being the earlier Vkings who invaeded Ireland such as Tomrair, Zain and Thorgest(Turgesius) and thos descended from them and the Dubgaill being chiefly those Vikings descended through Ivarr. Not necessarily blood relations but allied with or related to the same factions. I think it is pretty well established that the Danes were late comers to the Isles particularly Ireland and the Norwegians had been raiding and invading there for some time. We all know about the so-called "Great Heathen Army" but the actual first large scale invasion with a large fleet came around the year 837 when Thorgest invaded Ireland with 120 ships. I'm sure most of you know all of this so I'll leave it at that. The only other interesting point I have only recently heard is that they now feel that Danish Viking ydna in England is much more difficult to differentiate chiefly because the people involved in the earlier migrations(Angles, Saxons, Jutes) carried the exact same ydna lines while they have a far easier time telling Norwegian Ydna due to the specific and different Ydna Haplogroups they tended to carry, chiefly lines of I1 as well as R1a. Not saying that is what I believe but this is what I have recently seen reported. One thing I will say, I have never understood why all the hubbub about the Viking activity in England while not much in terms of documentaries etc on same for Ireland. Personally, the more I have read, I have begun to find the story of their invasions of Ireland much more interesting especially considering the really brutal nature of the clash between the native Irish and the Vikings as well as the decades long battles for control of Dublin which as far as trade with other parts of Europe and the world was arguably more critical to them than York. The battles and continually changing alliances over control of Dublin read like the activities of modern day mafia gangsters. Ivarr's brother, Halfdan, was in fact murdered when he returned to Dublin in 877 to re-secure the then deceased Ivarr's interests likely by a coalition of Norwegian's and Irish. While I don't get into the whole 'who the best Vikings were' argument, I do at times feel just a tad bit of Dane burnout lol. Danes this, Danes that. Again, when it comes to the Viking incursions into the British Isles, the Danes were relative late comers. As I say, I'd like to see more effort on the part of documentary makers etc into the story of the Viking activity in Ireland. And even Scotland, Hebrides, Shetland etc. For a long portion of this age, the Danes chief focus was on the continent and against the Carolingian Empire.