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rms2
08-04-2013, 02:42 PM
I am starting this thread here because it has to do with y-dna and Wales, and Wales is predominantly L21+. I was looking at my y-dna Ancestral Origins page in my myFTDNA pages this morning, and I noticed that Wales is woefully underrepresented in y-dna testing. Just 2,029 men who identify themselves as being of Welsh y-dna descent have been tested to 12 markers or more in FTDNA's database. Of those, only 1,472 have been tested to 25 or more markers, 1,274 to 37 or more markers, and a measly 633 to 67 or more markers. I don't know how many have tested to 111 markers, since none of my 111-marker matches is showing in Ancestral Origins, even though one of them is Welsh.

That's not a lot of Welshmen. I wonder what we can do about it.

I also noticed, in glancing about in Ancestral Origins, that the European Continent is still way behind the Isles in y-dna testing. It's shocking.

GoldenHind
08-05-2013, 04:40 AM
I am starting this thread here because it has to do with y-dna and Wales, and Wales is predominantly L21+. I was looking at my y-dna Ancestral Origins page in my myFTDNA pages this morning, and I noticed that Wales is woefully underrepresented in y-dna testing. Just 2,029 men who identify themselves as being of Welsh y-dna descent have been tested to 12 markers or more in FTDNA's database. Of those, only 1,472 have been tested to 25 or more markers, 1,274 to 37 or more markers, and a measly 633 to 67 or more markers. I don't know how many have tested to 111 markers, since none of my 111-marker matches is showing in Ancestral Origins, even though one of them is Welsh.

That's not a lot of Welshmen. I wonder what we can do about it.

I also noticed, in glancing about in Ancestral Origins, that the European Continent is still way behind the Isles in y-dna testing. It's shocking.

That is surprising, considering how many entries there are from other parts of Britain. I wonder if some of them are hidden within the United Kingdom category? There are also probably a lot of Americans who haven't traced their ancestry back to Wales yet, as well as some who aren't aware their origins are from Wales.

With regard to the woeful lack of testing on the continent, I think most know that there is an enormous bias toward the British Isles in the FTDNA database, but I suspect most have no idea just how great this is (I know you do, as we have discussed it before). Look at these figures from the FTDNA Ydna database:

England 24,000
Scotland 11,000
United Kingdom 10,000 (a different category than the above)
Ireland 14,000

Denmark 800

rms2
08-05-2013, 10:53 AM
Yes, it's even worse for some of the other countries on the Continent, as I'm sure you know.

I was really shocked by the Welsh figure, though, since the rest of the Isles is so well represented.

RobertCasey
08-05-2013, 03:18 PM
Wales is not nearly as populated as England and is pretty well sampled. This is based on my 67 marker spreadsheet (which includes substantial numbers of
pre-L21 submissions - 20 % non-L21):

____________Population___%________tests_____%

England_____53.0M_______78.1______3,299____29.8 - under-represented
Scotland____5.3M________7.8_______2,991____27.0 - over-represented
Ireland______4.6M________6.8_______3,783____34.2 - over-represented
Wales_______3.1M________4.6_______502_____4.5 - matches population
No. Ire._____1.8M________2.6________500_____4.5 - over-represented

So Wales is about the only geography that tracks population. Also, here are some
of the most common surnames under Wales (only surnames with 20 or more in Wales):

__________All_____Wales only

Davis_____149____21
Jones_____111____28
Lewis_____88_____29
Williams___61_____21
Pugh_____40_____33
Price_____39_____21

I think clan-based surname areas are over tested since there are fewer genetic origins with Irish and Scottish surnames which is a good
match for genetic research. Half of my Irish Casey testers belong to only two genetic clusters (both under L226) whereas my English
Brooks testers have at least 75 genetic clusters where most clusters have less than 1 or 2 percent of the surname and the handful
of larger clusters are only 4 or 5 % of the surname.

Dubhthach
08-05-2013, 04:13 PM
Should be pointed out though that the ratio of population difference between areas is radically different now then it was in 19th century. For example Ireland use to have a 1:2 ratio with England. Here are the stats from 1841 (on the eve of the Great Famine)


England: 15,002,250
Ireland: 8,196,597
Scotland: 2,620,184
Wales: 911,898


Total of Ireland + Britain = 26,730,929
Percentage breakdown per region:

England: 56.12%
Ireland: 30.66%
Scotland: 9.80%
Wales: 3.41%



Contrast that to 2011 where the population totals are now:


England: 53,012,456 (3.53 times 1841)
Ireland: 6,399,115 (whole Island) (78% of 1841)
Scotland: 5,295,400 (2.02 times 1841)
Wales: 3,063,456 (3.35 times 1841)


Total Ireland + Britain: 67,770,427 (2.53 times 1841)
Percentage breakdown per region:

England: 78.22%
Ireland: 9.44%
Scotland: 7.81%
Wales: 4.52%


(NB I rounded to two decimal points)

What's evident is that England population has only became hugely dominant in period post the Great Famine. Unsurprising there are about 6 million people in Britain who have at least one Irish grandparent and anywhere between 12-16million people who have some Irish ancestry dating back to the mid 19th century.

Obviously both the Irish and English populations had grown heavily in period 1781-1841 but generally historians would say that there was a 1:2 ratio between Ireland in terms of population throught the medieval and early modern period.

Currently the ratio is: 1:10.42 !

RobertCasey
08-05-2013, 04:54 PM
Another huge factor is immigration of these populations to other parts of the world. For Irish people:

USA - 40.0M
England - 14.0M
Australia - 7.0M
Ireland - 6.8M
Canada - 4.3M
Argentina - 1.0M

Due to numerous reasons, the Irish as well as the Scottish migrated in larger numbers to other parts of the world which also explains why
more testing has been done for these testers. However, I really think that the major issues are:

1) Population trends - this should be the baseline;
2) Immigration trends - a lot more Irish migrated and then Scottish;
3) Good match for genetic research - this is a major factor - clan based names are good fit;
4) Bias of testing worldwide primarily due to economic factors, cultural issues and legal issues -
- most in the US (as well as Canada and Australia with fewer numbers)
- British Isles is a close second or could be as much as the US (since there are a lot of people in the US)
- Western continental Europe is a distant third
- With various exceptions, the rest of world is less involved
- A lot of Jewish testing
- Significant amount of Arab testing
- Very little African or Eastern Asia testing

I do not think Wales is less represented when population is considered. I do think that Irish and Scottish
are more tested in British Isles since clan based names just reveal more since there are much fewer
genetic origins for fairly common surnames. I am not sure why France and Germany are less tested.

rms2
08-05-2013, 08:35 PM
If one uses FTDNA's database and includes all those tested to 12 markers or more, Wales is under represented relative to the rest of the Isles: about 3.9% of the total despite its 4.6% share of the population. England is under represented but moves up to about 46% of Isles men tested to 12 or more markers. Scotland moves down to 22% of those tested, but is still obviously over represented, as is Ireland, which at 12 or more markers represents 27% of Isles testing.

With just 2,029 total y-dna tests, men claiming Welsh ancestry are under represented both in absolute terms and in terms of relative population. In my original post, however, I was thinking of absolute numbers. 2,029 is a pathetic figure.

GoldenHind
08-07-2013, 01:07 AM
Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, FTDNA seems to have updated the country testing totals this week. The new numbers (rounded off as before) are as follows:

England 29,000
Scotland 14,000
United Kingdom: 12,000
Ireland 17,500

Denmark is now approaching 1000. The number of samples from Denmark increased by a little over 150, while the total for England alone increased by about 5,000.

In case some think I cherry picked Denmark as an under-tested anomaly, Portugal is just over 900.

Joe B
08-07-2013, 02:19 AM
Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, FTDNA seems to have updated the country testing totals this week. The new numbers (rounded off as before) are as follows:

England 29,000
Scotland 14,000
United Kingdom: 12,000
Ireland 17,500

Denmark is now approaching 1000. The number of samples from Denmark increased by a little over 150, while the total for England alone increased by about 5,000.

In case some think I cherry picked Denmark as an under-tested anomaly, Portugal is just over 900.
Your eyes are good! The Ancestral Origins page has been updated. It looks like customer service responded to the complaint of the country totals not changing this year.

12 marker level from last December and now.
Denmark 814 new 974
England 23931 new 28985
France 3366 new 4204
Germany 12073 new 14882
Greece 681 new 793
Ireland 14064 new 17538
Italy 3335 new 4046
Norway 1335 new 1902
Slovakia 498 new 607
Turkey 559 new 704
United Kingdom 10657 new 12119
Wales 2029 new 2437

The original comment from rms2 that "the European Continent is still way behind the Isles in y-dna testing" is still true.

rms2
08-07-2013, 06:12 PM
My 111-marker match from Wales is still not showing in Ancestral Origins. Weird. He's only six off me at 111 markers, and he does list his mdka as having been born in Wales.

PeterRabbit
08-10-2013, 01:52 PM
I am starting this thread here because it has to do with y-dna and Wales, and Wales is predominantly L21+. I was looking at my y-dna
That's not a lot of Welshmen. I wonder what we can do about it.

Bear in mind;

1 - The British Economy is still well and truly shafted. Although recent figures have shown some improvement there is a fair amount of statistical frigging going on, i.e. Less people are being allowed to claim unemployment benefits, people are working part time instead of full, graduates/school leavers are taking unpaid jobs, and so on, and although average wages are growing slightly they lag behind inflation so the average Brit is still getting poorer each year.

2 - Are there really many welsh people left? I used to meet quite a lot a few decades ago but they seem to be getter very thin on the ground these days. The highest concentration of Welsh people is around the Llanberis Valley area which is where Welsh is still spoken commonly. The South is very
mixed English/Welsh blood and a lot of English people up the border seem to retire to Wales, perhaps because it has lower property prices? Maybe the Welsh are dying out?

3 - Why would a welshman want to pay 200 for you to find out where you came from? They want to find out where they came from and it ain't America! For them to be really interested in DNA testing they would need to be able to find out who they matched back across the water in Continental Europe. But not many Continental Europeans seem to have tested compared to the Welsh. Something sounds familiar about this ;-) And what would it take to get more Continental Europeans to test? Eastern Europeans! And what would it take to get more Eastern Europeans to test? Turkish? Iranians? And so on and so on... Existing DNA databases contain few results that are of interest to the Welsh.


2 things you COULD do to get more Welsh to test are;

a] Decrease test costs markedly or subsidize Welsh testing (perhaps contact Welsh Family History societys to find volunteers - http://www.fhswales.org.uk/members.htm if you want to go down this route)

b] Make some DNA discoveries that are of great historic relevance to the Welsh (if you tell a Welshman that most Welsh are L21 (as you asserted), and so are all related, it is more likely to result in you getting your lights punched out than in them getting their DNA tested! ;-) ).

PeterRabbit
08-10-2013, 03:26 PM
Whoops, sorry, of course the 3rd thing you could do to make the Welsh more interesting in testing is to

c] Get more Dutch, Belgians, French, Spanish & Germans to test!

rms2
08-11-2013, 12:48 PM
Bear in mind;

1 - The British Economy is still well and truly shafted. Although recent figures have shown some improvement there is a fair amount of statistical frigging going on, i.e. Less people are being allowed to claim unemployment benefits, people are working part time instead of full, graduates/school leavers are taking unpaid jobs, and so on, and although average wages are growing slightly they lag behind inflation so the average Brit is still getting poorer each year.

2 - Are there really many welsh people left? I used to meet quite a lot a few decades ago but they seem to be getter very thin on the ground these days. The highest concentration of Welsh people is around the Llanberis Valley area which is where Welsh is still spoken commonly. The South is very
mixed English/Welsh blood and a lot of English people up the border seem to retire to Wales, perhaps because it has lower property prices? Maybe the Welsh are dying out?

3 - Why would a welshman want to pay 200 for you to find out where you came from? They want to find out where they came from and it ain't America! For them to be really interested in DNA testing they would need to be able to find out who they matched back across the water in Continental Europe. But not many Continental Europeans seem to have tested compared to the Welsh. Something sounds familiar about this ;-) And what would it take to get more Continental Europeans to test? Eastern Europeans! And what would it take to get more Eastern Europeans to test? Turkish? Iranians? And so on and so on... Existing DNA databases contain few results that are of interest to the Welsh.


2 things you COULD do to get more Welsh to test are;

a] Decrease test costs markedly or subsidize Welsh testing (perhaps contact Welsh Family History societys to find volunteers - http://www.fhswales.org.uk/members.htm if you want to go down this route)

b] Make some DNA discoveries that are of great historic relevance to the Welsh (if you tell a Welshman that most Welsh are L21 (as you asserted), and so are all related, it is more likely to result in you getting your lights punched out than in them getting their DNA tested! ;-) ).

1. The U.S. economy isn't good, either.

2. I think there are still plenty of Welsh people left. Besides, I was talking about y-dna, which requires only patrilineal Welsh descent, in most cases signified by possession of a Welsh surname.

3. I would not try to convince a Welshman to spend his money on y-dna testing by arguing that it would help me. Honestly, I'm not sure how I would try to convince a native Welshman to test. Perhaps the best argument for testing might be its ability to make connections to the history of the peopling of Wales and of Britain in general. As far as cost goes, y-dna testing is available for a lot less than 200. Currently, an entry-level, 12-marker y-dna test can be had from FTDNA for about 32. Continental testing, while lagging behind Isles testing, is not non-existent. The database of continental y-dna results is actually pretty large.

DNA discoveries of great historical significance to the Welsh have already been made; L21 is one of them. I doubt that finding a y-dna connection to the ancient Britons, and to the Celts in general, would upset a Welshman, quite the contrary.

National origin in FTDNA's Ancestral Origins database is based on where one's most distant y-dna ancestor came from, not on where the test subject happens to reside now. In other words, many if not most of those listed as Welsh are no doubt Americans, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders, etc. The same is true for all of the other nationalities in the Ancestral Origins database. That is why it is called Ancestral Origins, after all. For example, I have a 105/111 match who is a Canadian citizen living in British Columbia but whose y-dna ancestor came from Wales. I have a 65/67 match who also lives in Canada (I forget where), has a Welsh surname, but who was born in Worcester, England.

It would be nice to get more y-dna test results from Welshmen who actually live in Wales, but results from the Welsh diaspora are good, too, and undoubtedly easier to get, since there are probably more Welshmen outside of Wales than in it.

Scarlet Ibis
08-11-2013, 05:52 PM
Bear in mind;

1 - The British Economy is still well and truly shafted. Although recent figures have shown some improvement there is a fair amount of statistical frigging going on, i.e. Less people are being allowed to claim unemployment benefits, people are working part time instead of full, graduates/school leavers are taking unpaid jobs, and so on, and although average wages are growing slightly they lag behind inflation so the average Brit is still getting poorer each year.

2 - Are there really many welsh people left? I used to meet quite a lot a few decades ago but they seem to be getter very thin on the ground these days. The highest concentration of Welsh people is around the Llanberis Valley area which is where Welsh is still spoken commonly. The South is very
mixed English/Welsh blood and a lot of English people up the border seem to retire to Wales, perhaps because it has lower property prices? Maybe the Welsh are dying out?


Congrats on writing the most depressing post I've ever read on Anthrogenica since its launch.

GoldenHind
08-11-2013, 06:10 PM
As one who has spent quite a lot of time in the Welsh Marches, near the still very rural mid Wales, I can assure you there is no shortage of Welsh people remaining. Also a large portion of the English in the area have surnames of Welsh origin, such as Price or Pritchard.

greystones22
08-11-2013, 07:35 PM
As one who has spent quite a lot of time in the Welsh Marches, near the still very rural mid Wales, I can assure you there is no shortage of Welsh people remaining. Also a large portion of the English in the area have surnames of Welsh origin, such as Price or Pritchard.

This is an interesting thread. Some of you may be aware that I make forays into north Wales to collect DNA samples for an ongoing historical genetics project. I can assure you there are many Welsh men residing in the area, and they are as keen as ever to demonstrate their Welsh heritage.

In terms of getting more samples, some of what was said before is likely to work. Certainly connecting with local family history societies may be an idea. I can put you in touch with an enthusiastic member of Gwynedd FHS (which covers the top left hand corner of Wales + Anglesey).

Another idea might be to look for your local men of Welsh ancestry. If you live in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and other states listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_American (as well as most metropolitan districts I suspect) simply get out the phone directory and look for Jones, Williams, Davies, Evans, Thomas, Roberts, Hughes, Lewis, Morris, Morgan etc.... If there's one in your neighbourhood drop by and tell him the good news about his almost certain Welsh paternal ancestry!! If this piques his interest you can tell him how wonderful genetic genealogy is, and you may be half way to your first sale.

Regarding
b] Make some DNA discoveries that are of great historic relevance to the Welsh (if you tell a Welshman that most Welsh are L21 (as you asserted), and so are all related, it is more likely to result in you getting your lights punched out than in them getting their DNA tested! ;-) ).
I think that you would need to tell them that L21 men share common ancestry quite a long time ago. If you told them L21 was more common in Wales than in England, suggesting the populations are divergent, then that would be well received.

Andy

jdean
08-12-2013, 10:16 AM
Even in the industrial SE you'll find plenty of people with Welsh pedigrees. I've traced most of my lines back 7 generations and the larger majority of my mother's are Welsh, a surprising number of which were local to my vicinity.

Just so happens that the paternal line isn't, something my maternal grandfather didn't learn of until relatively late in life, one of those family secrets : )

rms2
08-12-2013, 11:20 AM
. . .
Another idea might be to look for your local men of Welsh ancestry. If you live in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and other states listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_American (as well as most metropolitan districts I suspect) simply get out the phone directory and look for Jones, Williams, Davies, Evans, Thomas, Roberts, Hughes, Lewis, Morris, Morgan etc.... If there's one in your neighbourhood drop by and tell him the good news about his almost certain Welsh paternal ancestry!! If this piques his interest you can tell him how wonderful genetic genealogy is, and you may be half way to your first sale . . .


Thanks for the suggestions!

I just did a little searching for my area and found this:

The Welsh Society of Fredericksburg, Virginia (http://www.welshfred.com/) B)

I'll probably join, since the dues are just $15 a year.

greystones22
08-12-2013, 07:50 PM
Its worth joining for the domain name alone!!

"Welshfred.com"

Get down to their festival and talk to people about DNA




Thanks for the suggestions!

I just did a little searching for my area and found this:

The Welsh Society of Fredericksburg, Virginia (http://www.welshfred.com/) B)

I'll probably join, since the dues are just $15 a year.

avalon
08-21-2013, 06:32 AM
This is an interesting thread. Some of you may be aware that I make forays into north Wales to collect DNA samples for an ongoing historical genetics project. I can assure you there are many Welsh men residing in the area, and they are as keen as ever to demonstrate their Welsh heritage.

In terms of getting more samples, some of what was said before is likely to work. Certainly connecting with local family history societies may be an idea. I can put you in touch with an enthusiastic member of Gwynedd FHS (which covers the top left hand corner of Wales + Anglesey).

Another idea might be to look for your local men of Welsh ancestry. If you live in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and other states listed here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_American (as well as most metropolitan districts I suspect) simply get out the phone directory and look for Jones, Williams, Davies, Evans, Thomas, Roberts, Hughes, Lewis, Morris, Morgan etc.... If there's one in your neighbourhood drop by and tell him the good news about his almost certain Welsh paternal ancestry!! If this piques his interest you can tell him how wonderful genetic genealogy is, and you may be half way to your first sale.

Regarding
b] Make some DNA discoveries that are of great historic relevance to the Welsh (if you tell a Welshman that most Welsh are L21 (as you asserted), and so are all related, it is more likely to result in you getting your lights punched out than in them getting their DNA tested! ;-) ).
I think that you would need to tell them that L21 men share common ancestry quite a long time ago. If you told them L21 was more common in Wales than in England, suggesting the populations are divergent, then that would be well received.

Andy

I am guessing that you are involved with the University of Sheffield study that was researching the DNA of men in NE Wales, looking for a possible Bronze Age mining link?

I read about this a while ago and I assume it was prompted by the high levels of Haplogroup E that were found in an earlier study in Abergele? Is this correct and have any further results been published yet? North Wales genetic genealogy is a particular interest of mine and I had wondered if the Abergele result was a strange anomaly for the region.

avalon
08-21-2013, 09:10 AM
Your eyes are good! The Ancestral Origins page has been updated. It looks like customer service responded to the complaint of the country totals not changing this year.

12 marker level from last December and now.
Denmark 814 new 974
England 23931 new 28985
France 3366 new 4204
Germany 12073 new 14882
Greece 681 new 793
Ireland 14064 new 17538
Italy 3335 new 4046
Norway 1335 new 1902
Slovakia 498 new 607
Turkey 559 new 704
United Kingdom 10657 new 12119
Wales 2029 new 2437

The original comment from rms2 that "the European Continent is still way behind the Isles in y-dna testing" is still true.

I do believe that even when we factor in the population of Wales and consider the effects of emigration then Wales is under-represented at FTDNA, compared to other parts of the Isles.

We know about the large Scottish and Irish diasporas but the English too have emigrated to a greater extent than the Welsh. The book "Albions Seed" goes in to detail about the different waves of English migration to North America. Welsh emigration to America was mainly the 17C Quakers of Pennsylvania and than later, industrial migrants from South Wales in the 19th century.

I do wonder about the 12,000 on FTDNA whose ancestry is described as United Kingdom? I suspect that most of these are actually English origin, perhaps from the earlier settlers to America. If they were Irish or Scottish they would probably know it either via the surname or because they were more aware of their ancestry.

greystones22
08-30-2013, 08:56 PM
I am guessing that you are involved with the University of Sheffield study that was researching the DNA of men in NE Wales, looking for a possible Bronze Age mining link?

I read about this a while ago and I assume it was prompted by the high levels of Haplogroup E that were found in an earlier study in Abergele? Is this correct and have any further results been published yet? North Wales genetic genealogy is a particular interest of mine and I had wondered if the Abergele result was a strange anomaly for the region.

The Abergele result is replicated by our testing in north Wales. We are working on a publication so I can't say more at present.
Off topic, but I am just back from a trip to Eifionydd- fantastic scenery. Can imagine it was a tough life as a pastoral farmer here for about the last 4000 years!
http://www.thesnowdonian.com/regions/eifionydd

Anglecynn
08-30-2013, 09:24 PM
The Abergele result is replicated by our testing in north Wales. We are working on a publication so I can't say more at present.
Off topic, but I am just back from a trip to Eifionydd- fantastic scenery. Can imagine it was a tough life as a pastoral farmer here for about the last 4000 years!
http://www.thesnowdonian.com/regions/eifionydd

That is fascinating. I had thought it was just due to low sampling or perhaps in the wrong areas. But if it is replicated, then this just got a whole lot more interesting.

GoldenHind
08-31-2013, 12:06 AM
I do wonder about the 12,000 on FTDNA whose ancestry is described as United Kingdom? I suspect that most of these are actually English origin, perhaps from the earlier settlers to America. If they were Irish or Scottish they would probably know it either via the surname or because they were more aware of their ancestry.

I think it is difficult to generalize. One of my very few matches at 67 markers lists his origins as United Kingdom, but he was actually born in England (in the central part of the Midlands) and is thoroughly English.

Baltimore1937
08-31-2013, 12:20 AM
I have a few Welsh ancestors in my maternal tree, back in colonial times. They are either from Pennsylvania or the Wilmington, Delaware area. But this is not mtDNA or Y-DNA; just autosomal DNA that has probably faded away by the time descendant lines reached me.

avalon
09-01-2013, 08:43 AM
The Abergele result is replicated by our testing in north Wales. We are working on a publication so I can't say more at present.
Off topic, but I am just back from a trip to Eifionydd- fantastic scenery. Can imagine it was a tough life as a pastoral farmer here for about the last 4000 years!
http://www.thesnowdonian.com/regions/eifionydd

Eifionydd is lovely and Cwm Pennant is one of the most beautiful valleys in Wales. Fairies used to live there. :)

Very interesting about Hg E in North Wales. If I had to hazard a guess, and based on the Capelli study which found it high in Abergele but low in Llangefni, I wonder if it is at elevated levels in the broad area between the Conwy and Clwyd rivers (modern Denbighshire), which is now generally known as the Denbigh moors, or Mynydd Hiraethog in Welsh.

This is an isolated area of rolling hills, difficult to farm and historically Abergele may have drawn much of its population from this area.

rms2
09-01-2013, 11:48 AM
This article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abergele) on Abergele attributes the E1b1b in Abergele to "the heavy Roman Army presence" there. It cites Steven Bird's article, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin (http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm) as its authority for that statement. Bird says the following in connection to Abergele:



In northeast Wales, the settlement of Dinorben (1.8 miles [2.9 km] southeast of Abergele, Clwyd), which was established by the Romans at the site of an earlier, abandonded Iron Age fortress, was seen as significant by Hogg [an author cited by Bird].

rms2
09-01-2013, 12:19 PM
Here is more from Steven Bird's article, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin (http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm), that includes the snippet I posted above. The full quote is worth reading.



Hogg (1965, p. 33) hypothesized that these homesteads associated with the terraced fields were, in all likelihood, of early third century Roman origin and stated that:

. . . some proportion of the enclosed homesteads represent officially encouraged new settlement superimposed on relatively sparse occupation which had persisted from before the Roman conquest, possibly enfeebled by punitive measures.

He estimated the Romano-British population of the region at 4000, plus another 500 soldiers stationed at Segontium (Caernarfon, Gwynedd). In northeast Wales, the settlement of Dinorben (1.8 miles [2.9 km] southeast of Abergele, Clwyd), which was established by the Romans at the site of an earlier, abandonded Iron Age fortress, was seen as significant by Hogg. Dinorben appeared to have been a villa-styled settlement, dated soon after the middle of the 3rd century, with the main part of the work being done by a force of laborers (Hogg, 1965, p. 31). The third century date coincidence is striking, corresponding to the period of greatest family growth in Deva, as identified by Carrington (2006). Dinorben was identified by J. L. Davies (1977, p. 257) as “the only Welsh hillfort to produce items of undoubted Roman military equipment.”

Abergele was discovered by Weale (2002) to have the highest percentage of E3b in Britain, at nearly 39% of a very small sample of 18 haplotypes. Oppenheimer (2006, p. 232) seized upon this evidence to advance a theory of a "Bronze age Spanish mining colony in north Wales" at Abergele, based upon the discovery (in 1997) of a BA copper mine at Pentwyrn (Great Ormes Head),[33] twelve miles (19 km) distant from Abergele. The area around the Pentwyrn site was believed to have been occupied during the upper Paleolithic, Mesolithic, Neolithic, Bronze Age and Iron Age periods. There is archaeological evidence, however, to indicate that the individuals who worked the mine in the pre-Roman eras actually may have lived nearby at the Lloches yr Afr rock shelter, within 200 meters of the mine site itself.

jdean
09-01-2013, 01:32 PM
The Abergele result is replicated by our testing in north Wales. We are working on a publication so I can't say more at present.
Off topic, but I am just back from a trip to Eifionydd- fantastic scenery. Can imagine it was a tough life as a pastoral farmer here for about the last 4000 years!
http://www.thesnowdonian.com/regions/eifionydd

I can't wait

quite literally : )_

avalon
09-01-2013, 07:21 PM
Here is more from Steven Bird's article, Haplogroup E3b1a2 as a Possible Indicator of Settlement in Roman Britain by Soldiers of Balkan Origin (http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm), that includes the snippet I posted above. The full quote is worth reading.

I think the Roman soldiers origin is certainly a possibility but the University of Sheffield study appears to be leaning towards a Bronze Age copper mining connection.

Generally speaking, North Wales was one of the least Romanised parts of Southern Britain - there are no Roman towns and villa-settlements, such as the one at Dinorben near Abergele are very rare.

On the other hand, there are plenty of Roman military sites in N Wales, testimony to a protracted military occupation, so over a 300 year period it's quite easy to suppose that Roman soldiers may have contributed to the local gene pool.

greystones22
09-02-2013, 08:31 AM
The Copper Miners and Roman auxiliary forces are completely hypothetical reasons for the "Abergele anomaly"
It will be hard to find direct evidence for either.

What about the possibility that an Hg E male entered Wales for an abstract reason, and got lucky??

Dubhthach
09-02-2013, 08:46 AM
The Copper Miners and Roman auxiliary forces are completely hypothetical reasons for the "Abergele anomaly"
It will be hard to find direct evidence for either.

What about the possibility that an Hg E male entered Wales for an abstract reason, and got lucky??

There's also the point that the Welsh Hg E, may belong to a specific subclade that isn't reflective of say "roman origins". I'm leary of talk about legioners etc it reminds me of all the talk about R1b been "basque hunter/gathers".

What's interesting is I've heard of a number of cases where native Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht (Irish speaking areas) have come back as Haplogroup E.

Again not knowing the structure of Haplogroup E in europe it wouldn't surprise me if there are specific subclades that have distinctive distribution in western europe -- just as for example the clades of R1b-P312 show quite distinctive distribution.

-Paul
(DF41+)

avalon
09-02-2013, 09:26 AM
What about the possibility that an Hg E male entered Wales for an abstract reason, and got lucky??

Indeed. This reminds of the paper the "Anglesey Bone Setters" which was about a boy who was shipwrecked off Anglesey in the 18th century and whose y-dna descendants today carry a rare haplotype that looks South East European in origin.

rms2
09-02-2013, 01:44 PM
I think the Roman soldiers origin is certainly a possibility but the University of Sheffield study appears to be leaning towards a Bronze Age copper mining connection.

Generally speaking, North Wales was one of the least Romanised parts of Southern Britain - there are no Roman towns and villa-settlements, such as the one at Dinorben near Abergele are very rare.

On the other hand, there are plenty of Roman military sites in N Wales, testimony to a protracted military occupation, so over a 300 year period it's quite easy to suppose that Roman soldiers may have contributed to the local gene pool.

True, and while I agree with all of the comments made by you, Andy, and Paul above, it's hard to imagine over 300 years of Roman occupation and no genetic impact, not even a small, localized one, like the E-V13 in Abergele.

It is interesting that one of the skeletons found at the Neolithic (c. 5000 BC) Epicardial site at Avellaner in Catalonia tested E-V13. That doesn't prove anything about the E in North Wales except that E-V13 was present in the West long before the Romans.

rms2
09-02-2013, 01:54 PM
I can't wait

quite literally : )_

Me too. A good y-dna paper on Wales is long overdue, especially now that Gareth Bale is the highest paid footballer in the world. Is he L21+? ;)

jdean
09-02-2013, 02:10 PM
That's the game with the round ball isn't it ?

rms2
09-02-2013, 02:13 PM
That's the game with the round ball isn't it ?

Correct. ;)

I could have said "soccer player", I guess. I used to coach soccer when I taught at a private military school out in the Shenandoah Valley. It's my favorite sport. B)

I also like American football, but not as much.

rms2
09-02-2013, 02:21 PM
Here is something interesting that is relevant to this thread, I guess. It's BritainsDNA's latest red hair gene variant map for the Isles, which shows the percentage of people in each region who carry at least one of the gene variants for red hair. Wales is one of the regions with a very high frequency of red hair carriers.

659

http://blog.britainsdna.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/08/Carriers.jpg

jdean
09-02-2013, 02:22 PM
Correct. ;)

I could have said "soccer player", I guess. I used to coach soccer when I taught at a private military school out in the Shenandoah Valley. It's my favorite sport. B)

I also like American football, but not as much.

I always preferred Rugby but that's because you can play it without having coordination : )_

Also being stupid enough not to get out of the way of the big bloke steaming down the pitch at you was considered a plus !

avalon
09-02-2013, 07:57 PM
Here is something interesting that is relevant to this thread, I guess. It's BritainsDNA's latest red hair gene variant map for the Isles, which shows the percentage of people in each region who carry at least one of the gene variants for red hair. Wales is one of the regions with a very high frequency of red hair carriers.

659

http://blog.britainsdna.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/11/2013/08/Carriers.jpg

Thanks, that map shows quite a clear correlation between the Celts and red hair genes. Over at molgen, Yorkie once mentioned that Bruce Winney of the POBI project believes that some of Britain's earliest settlers, post Ice Age, might have been red haired. Not sure how they know that but red hair does seem to be a very ancient NW European trait.

It's a shame that they didn't break Wales down into regions on that map because some of the old anthropological studies observed that red hair was more common in South Wales than in North Wales. From memory, Carmarthenshire and Monmouthshire had quite high levels. Even in the north there were variations - Anglesey was quite high but Snowdonia had low frequencies of red hair.

Then of course there were the "Red Bandits of Mawddwy." :)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/wales/posts/the-red-bandits-of-mawddwy

rms2
09-02-2013, 11:24 PM
That "Red Bandits of Mawddwy" story was cool. Thanks.

I wonder about the possible connection between the "Men of the North", who came to North Wales from the kingdom of the Votadini (Gododdin) in SE Scotland, and at least some of the red hair carriers in Wales. Notice that SE Scotland has the highest frequency of red hair carriers (40%), although it is only slightly higher than its chief competitors, including Wales (38%).

I know autosomal dna and y-dna are impossible to connect, but that doesn't stop me (and others) from wondering about possible connections. So, I won't say they are connected, but the red hair carrier map and the L21 y-dna map are remarkably similar.

661 662

rms2
09-03-2013, 12:01 AM
Here's another juxtaposing of two items to inspire thought:

663 664

Notice the drop in red hair variant frequency from Wales to England Central and how similar it is to the drop in L21 from Wales to the West Midlands of England. Coincidence?

greystones22
09-03-2013, 08:51 AM
nb The scale on the red hair map is rather confusing. Min 20, Max 40. It makes a small difference look big!
I must say I have rarely met a Welsh red head- in the north at least.



Here's another juxtaposing of two items to inspire thought:

663 664

Notice the drop in red hair variant frequency from Wales to England Central and how similar it is to the drop in L21 from Wales to the West Midlands of England. Coincidence?

Dubhthach
09-03-2013, 11:07 AM
nb The scale on the red hair map is rather confusing. Min 20, Max 40. It makes a small difference look big!
I must say I have rarely met a Welsh red head- in the north at least.

you have to remember that this is a map of carriers of relevant alleles as oppose to actual redheads. For example in Ireland only about 10% of population actually have red-hair. In other words they inherted relevant allele from both parents.

avalon
09-03-2013, 04:29 PM
Dubhthach makes a good point about the difference between people who actually have red hair and those who carry the gene alleles. The BritiansDNA study shows that Scotland has the highest percentage at 40% but they also say this:


The percentage of red heads is lower but also varies, with about 6% of Scots having red hair,
about 300,000.

Clearly, large numbers of people in Britain carry genes for red hair but only a small minority actually have red hair.

As for Wales, I would agree with greystones. I have a spent a lot of time in North Wales since childhood and I would say that actual red heads are not that common. An anthropological study published in the 1950s supports this observation. Frequencies of red hair were found to be Anglesey 7%, Ardudwy and Eifionydd 4.4%, Denbigh hills 6.2%, Arfon 3.9%, Llyn 4.4% and Bala cleft 3%.

avalon
09-03-2013, 04:42 PM
That "Red Bandits of Mawddwy" story was cool. Thanks.

I wonder about the possible connection between the "Men of the North", who came to North Wales from the kingdom of the Votadini (Gododdin) in SE Scotland, and at least some of the red hair carriers in Wales. Notice that SE Scotland has the highest frequency of red hair carriers (40%), although it is only slightly higher than its chief competitors, including Wales (38%).

I know autosomal dna and y-dna are impossible to connect, but that doesn't stop me (and others) from wondering about possible connections. So, I won't say they are connected, but the red hair carrier map and the L21 y-dna map are remarkably similar.

661 662

Interesting point about the "Men of the North." Many Welsh princes and dynasties in the medieval period claimed descent from them.

One thing that baffles me about the 40% figure for SE Scotland is that this is arguably the most "Germanic" part of Scotland, a legacy of the Angles settling there and the spread of Lowland Scots (an English dialect) from there in the middles ages.

Dubhthach
09-03-2013, 05:35 PM
One thing to consider though is that "SE Scotland" contains Edinburgh. Capital cities tend to pull inward migration from the regions. That and Southern Scotland had heavy Irish migration during the 19th and 20th centuries, thence the existence of "Glasgow Celtics" and Hibernians of Edinburgh in the Scottish Football Association (soccer).

Even leading aside the Centripetal force of Glasgow and Edinburgh, it's probable that Lothian was mostly made up of the Brythonic population with a Anglic lordship ontop. It was after all the northern part of Northumbria. We know that Brythonic survived in the western Lowlands until the early middle ages (Cumbric). L193 (L21+ -> DF13+ -> L513+) appears to have arisen in that general area (lowlands/borders) so we know plenty of L21 persisted in the region. Alot of the modern "Scots language" area was basically Celtic speaking (Brythonic or Middle Irish) until the middle ages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/History_of_Scots_in_Scotland_and_Ulster.png

-Paul
(DF41+)

rms2
09-04-2013, 08:01 AM
Interesting point about the "Men of the North." Many Welsh princes and dynasties in the medieval period claimed descent from them.

One thing that baffles me about the 40% figure for SE Scotland is that this is arguably the most "Germanic" part of Scotland, a legacy of the Angles settling there and the spread of Lowland Scots (an English dialect) from there in the middles ages.

The Germanic element doesn't seem likely to be the source of the red hair variants there, however, since elsewhere in Britain where the Germanic element is even higher the percentages are much lower: the lowest anywhere in the Isles, in fact. Besides, as I recall from Busby, L21 still runs about 50% in that region. I'm not saying L21 is the source of the red hair variants, but it seems safe to regard it as a proxy for Celtic ancestry in the Isles.

alan
09-04-2013, 08:59 AM
I wouldnt take the percentages too literally though. I have seen other studies that slightly alter the results. For instance in several previous studies red hair has been shown to be more common in the north and west of Ireland while this reverses that for the markers at least. These percentages do not show the micro-level variation and are averages for provinces and one thing to bear in mind is more isolated communities are more likely to express red hair through two copies meeting. I can tell you that there is absolutely no question that red hair in Ireland is more common in western Ulster (among the catholics) and north Connaught and relatively rare in the east and south, the opposite of what this map shows. This is not only a personal observation but also in the statistics of the Harvard Survey. Again, western Ulster (catholics) and north Connaught are probably two of the least effected areas by later settlers through a combination of these areas being the 'great Irishry' where Gaelic clans ruled independently far from the pale later than in most of Ireland and also due to strong segregation through sectarianism. Red hair will best express itself in isolated pockets and that is my experience. It patchy with some pockets with loads and other areas with few not so far away. I was once on Achill Island in Mayo and it was astonishing the level of red hair there. It is noticeable in the Harvard Survey that, despite a lot of Scottish genes, the presbyterians in Ireland were said to have a lack of red hair although they tended to have more blondes and a generally slightly lighter shade of brown hair.

alan
09-04-2013, 09:25 AM
I think they key in south-east Scotland is that as well as the native Celtic people who probably dominated the genes, the Angles who settled there were probably already a minority in more southerly areas of their Northumbrian kingdom and probably mixed with native Britons and finally the Medieval settlements came from relatively high red hair areas like northern England and the Low Countries. I wouldnt read too much into a swing of a point or two percentage wise. The take away clear thing is that the level nearly halves from the peaks in the Celtic fringe to SE England, something that is very much in line with a 50% Germanic input and 50% native substrate balance there.

However, the process of distinctiveness of SE England may have started in pre-Roman times with the Belgae and even before that. Classical references mention that the Britons of the interior were taller with less blonde hair than on the southern coasts where they were more like the more stocky fairer Gauls, presumably Belgic. Red hair is mentioned in terms of Scotland (and Boudica of the Iceni too). The Silures of south Wales were said to look Iberian with curly hair and dark complections. A lot of these stereotypes were alive and well still into modern times. So, we do know that the Britons were somewhat variable and there is a chance that the SE in particular was already at least a little divergent due to proximity to the continent with perhaps Scotland being at the opposite extreme of being the most isolated from later incomers. That is probably confirmation that the red head genes are especially early and survived best through isolation. I imagine they would have been expressed a whole lot less in cosmopolitan roman towns in Britain.


The Germanic element doesn't seem likely to be the source of the red hair variants there, however, since elsewhere in Britain where the Germanic element is even higher the percentages are much lower: the lowest anywhere in the Isles, in fact. Besides, as I recall from Busby, L21 still runs about 50% in that region. I'm not saying L21 is the source of the red hair variants, but it seems safe to regard it as a proxy for Celtic ancestry in the Isles.

avalon
09-04-2013, 10:39 AM
The Germanic element doesn't seem likely to be the source of the red hair variants there, however, since elsewhere in Britain where the Germanic element is even higher the percentages are much lower: the lowest anywhere in the Isles, in fact. Besides, as I recall from Busby, L21 still runs about 50% in that region. I'm not saying L21 is the source of the red hair variants, but it seems safe to regard it as a proxy for Celtic ancestry in the Isles.

I agree with you that red hair in the isles is largely Celtic but it is not exclusively so. At Jean Manco's site there was a red hair gene study from 2010 that showed Denmark with elevated levels and we know the Danes had a major impact on Northern England. William the Conqueror was a famous red-headed invader.

This map of Scotland just looks odd to me because in NW Scotland and the Western Isles we see it drop to 29% and this is a more Celtic area than SE Scotland - as evidenced by the survival of Gaelic speakers in the Outer Hebrides.

As for L21, my hunch is that red hair long pre-dates it in the isles.

alan
09-04-2013, 10:48 AM
Many Scottish clans are partially norse throughout the NW of Scotland in Caithness, Sutherland, the outer hebrides, skye etc and it only slowly drops off as you head south. The drop there corresponds beautifully to that settlement zone. These are lightly populated areas where genetic impact would be easy to achieve.


I agree with you that red hair in the isles is largely Celtic but it is not exclusively so. At Jean Manco's site there was a red hair gene study from 2010 that showed Denmark with elevated levels and we know the Danes had a major impact on Northern England. William the Conqueror was a famous red-headed invader.

This map of Scotland just looks odd to me because in NW Scotland and the Western Isles we see it drop to 29% and this is a more Celtic area than SE Scotland - as evidenced by the survival of Gaelic speakers in the Outer Hebrides.

As for L21, my hunch is that red hair long pre-dates it in the isles.

avalon
09-04-2013, 11:01 AM
I wouldnt take the percentages too literally though. I have seen other studies that slightly alter the results. For instance in several previous studies red hair has been shown to be more common in the north and west of Ireland while this reverses that for the markers at least. These percentages do not show the micro-level variation and are averages for provinces and one thing to bear in mind is more isolated communities are more likely to express red hair through two copies meeting. I can tell you that there is absolutely no question that red hair in Ireland is more common in western Ulster (among the catholics) and north Connaught and relatively rare in the east and south, the opposite of what this map shows. This is not only a personal observation but also in the statistics of the Harvard Survey. Again, western Ulster (catholics) and north Connaught are probably two of the least effected areas by later settlers through a combination of these areas being the 'great Irishry' where Gaelic clans ruled independently far from the pale later than in most of Ireland and also due to strong segregation through sectarianism. Red hair will best express itself in isolated pockets and that is my experience. It patchy with some pockets with loads and other areas with few not so far away. I was once on Achill Island in Mayo and it was astonishing the level of red hair there. It is noticeable in the Harvard Survey that, despite a lot of Scottish genes, the presbyterians in Ireland were said to have a lack of red hair although they tended to have more blondes and a generally slightly lighter shade of brown hair.

I know we have discussed John Beddoe in the past and we agreed that his work was not systematic and had its flaws.

However, I think this BritainsDNA red gene study somewhat vindicates Beddoe. Where he observed elevated levels of actual red hair in South Wales, Yorkshire, Northumberland and in Scotland - Lothian, Tayside and Grampian, we see corresponding elevated levels of red hair genes. Well done Beddoe. :)

I agree with you though that this current map has very broad regions so we can't take it too literally because it doesn't show local variations, such as in Wales.

avalon
09-04-2013, 11:03 AM
Many Scottish clans are partially norse throughout the NW of Scotland in Caithness, Sutherland, the outer hebrides, skye etc and it only slowly drops off as you head south. The drop there corresponds beautifully to that settlement zone. These are lightly populated areas where genetic impact would be easy to achieve.

True, but how do we explain the fact that the Western Isles of Scotland are the last stronghold of Gaelic?

rms2
09-04-2013, 11:19 AM
Norse settlement could have diluted the frequency of red hair gene variants while having little or no impact on the language.

rms2
09-04-2013, 11:32 AM
I wonder about the differences in types of red hair variants from one region to another. The places with the highest frequencies of red hair carriers on BritainsDNA's red hair variant map correspond pretty well with the areas of highest Celtic survival, and I wonder about the idea that the Danes contributed much to it, since a substantial part of the area with the lowest red hair carrier frequency was within the Danelaw.

668 669

Dubhthach
09-04-2013, 02:17 PM
True, but how do we explain the fact that the Western Isles of Scotland are the last stronghold of Gaelic?

With heavy phonological impact from Old-Norse. To my ear some of the Gaidhlig dialects of the Western Isles (particulary Lewis -- Stornoway) have vowels that sound scandinavian. Of course in Irish the name of the Hebrides is: Inse Ghall (The Islands of the Foreigners -- Gall in this context implies Norse)

BBC Alba is based in Stornoway, which in sense has given prestige status to Lewis dialect.

What's generally accepted is that like in Ireland the Vikings became gaelicised in Scotland. Thence the rise of hybrid groups such as the Gall-Ghaeil (Foreign-Irish -- Norse-Gaels), who for example settled Galloway (the land of the Gall-Ghaeil). Galloway before this time would have been Brythonic speaking.

-Paul
(DF41+)

alan
09-04-2013, 02:35 PM
Its just a fact. Actually Gaelic's real stronghold on Lewis and the chain of islands off it and the nearby mainland is very norse with most of the clans having viking roots although also having absorbed many native elements. Basically the norse elite that ruled most of the islands and the whole area was known as inse gall or 'islands of the vikings' but it was gaelicised a few centuries later. It is slightly paradoxical that it is the gaelicised norse areas that have the biggest gaelic stronghold now and gaelic has largely died out in the less norse southern hebrides and mainland highlands but history is full of paradoxes.


True, but how do we explain the fact that the Western Isles of Scotland are the last stronghold of Gaelic?

avalon
09-04-2013, 07:50 PM
I wonder about the differences in types of red hair variants from one region to another. The places with the highest frequencies of red hair carriers on BritainsDNA's red hair variant map correspond pretty well with the areas of highest Celtic survival, and I wonder about the idea that the Danes contributed much to it, since a substantial part of the area with the lowest red hair carrier frequency was within the Danelaw.

668 669

The areas most heavily settled by the Danes were Yorkshire and Lincolnshire - East Anglia less so, but I take your point about the Danelaw. In all likelihood the Danes probably only brought a small element of red hair to Britain.

The area on the red hair gene map "England East" is a broad area that includes Lincolnshire, Cambridgeshire, Norfolk, Suffolk and Essex. The 21% figure is probably an average for the whole region and doesn't reflect local variation. Hypothetically, Essex could be 10% and Lincolnshire 30%.

GoldenHind
09-04-2013, 08:09 PM
I agree with you that red hair in the isles is largely Celtic but it is not exclusively so. At Jean Manco's site there was a red hair gene study from 2010 that showed Denmark with elevated levels and we know the Danes had a major impact on Northern England. William the Conqueror was a famous red-headed invader.



I have never heard that William the Conqueror had red hair. Can you cite a source for that?

His son William Rufus certainly did have red hair, hence his nickname.

avalon
09-04-2013, 08:28 PM
Thanks to all for the detailed explanation about Gaelic in the Outer Hebrides.

The recent POBI maps showed that Norwegian Viking genetic input was high on Orkney but that it declined to small levels elsewhere. The other Scottish samples showed close affinity to Ireland with small Norse input. Even on Lewis the samples cluster with Ireland not Norway. If Norse input in Scotland is generally low then surely this would have little impact on red hair gene frequencies?

The other thing I would say is about Eastern Scotland where we see higher levels of red hair genes:

During the Anglo-Norman period 1097-1296 we see a degree of "anglicisation" in Southern and Eastern Scotland. David I established numerous burghs in southern and eastern Scotland which drew settlers from Flanders, Lothian, Northumbria, Yorkshire, Eastern England, Somerset and the Rhineland. This settlement must have been significant because it corresponded with the spread of "English" (Lowland Scots) into Gaelic areas along the east coast. I wonder what impact this had on red hair frequencies?

avalon
09-04-2013, 08:29 PM
I have never heard that William the Conqueror had red hair. Can you cite a source for that?

His son William Rufus certainly did have red hair, hence his nickname.

Sure. Simon Schama's "History of Britain" volume 1. I am not sure what Schama's primary source is but I have read this in other accounts over the years.

rms2
09-06-2013, 11:05 AM
Thanks to all for the detailed explanation about Gaelic in the Outer Hebrides.

The recent POBI maps showed that Norwegian Viking genetic input was high on Orkney but that it declined to small levels elsewhere. The other Scottish samples showed close affinity to Ireland with small Norse input. Even on Lewis the samples cluster with Ireland not Norway. If Norse input in Scotland is generally low then surely this would have little impact on red hair gene frequencies?

The other thing I would say is about Eastern Scotland where we see higher levels of red hair genes:

During the Anglo-Norman period 1097-1296 we see a degree of "anglicisation" in Southern and Eastern Scotland. David I established numerous burghs in southern and eastern Scotland which drew settlers from Flanders, Lothian, Northumbria, Yorkshire, Eastern England, Somerset and the Rhineland. This settlement must have been significant because it corresponded with the spread of "English" (Lowland Scots) into Gaelic areas along the east coast. I wonder what impact this had on red hair frequencies?

First off, I wouldn't make too much of southeastern Scotland's "higher levels" of red hair carriers. On that BritainsDNA map SE Scotland only just nudges out its several nearest competitors by two percentage points, 40% versus 38%. We don't know the sample sizes or any of the other details, but those results are virtually the same.

Second, I don't think input from regions with significantly lower rates of red hair carriers would increase the percentage of red hair carriers in SE Scotland - just the opposite.

When all of the other places in the Isles with the lowest rates of red hair carriers are the places known to have had the greatest Germanic input, it doesn't make much sense to me to try to attribute the high rate in SE Scotland to Germanic input.

On the other hand, the highest rates of red hair carriers on the BritainsDNA map are all from regions that are regarded as Celtic or where the Celts held out longest against the encroaching Anglo-Saxons.

avalon
09-06-2013, 11:52 AM
First off, I wouldn't make too much of southeastern Scotland's "higher levels" of red hair carriers. On that BritainsDNA map SE Scotland only just nudges out its several nearest competitors by two percentage points, 40% versus 38%. We don't know the sample sizes or any of the other details, but those results are virtually the same.

Second, I don't think input from regions with significantly lower rates of red hair carriers would increase the percentage of red hair carriers in SE Scotland - just the opposite.

When all of the other places in the Isles with the lowest rates of red hair carriers are the places known to have had the greatest Germanic input, it doesn't make much sense to me to try to attribute the high rate in SE Scotland to Germanic input.

On the other hand, the highest rates of red hair carriers on the BritainsDNA map are all from regions that are regarded as Celtic or where the Celts held out longest against the encroaching Anglo-Saxons.

Perhaps I didn't express myself clearly but I am not arguing that 'Germanic' input raised the frequency of red hair alleles in SE Scotland. It just surprises me that red hair frequency is not lower because of Germanic input in Eastern Scotland during the Medieval era. Although I would add that many English speaking settlers in Scotland were from areas such as Yorkshire and Northumbria that do have high frequencies of MC1R.

What I am seeing in Scotland is a slight east-west divide, by only a few percentage points, where the east has higher red hair gene frequencies than the west.

Others in this thread have attributed the lower frequency of 29% in NW Scotland to Norse impact but this wrongly assumes that the Norse carried low frequencies red hair genes. According to this POBI project newsletter, Norway actually has frequencies as high as Ireland!

http://www.peopleofthebritishisles.org/press/nl1.pdf

The PoBI's latest findings also show that outside of Orkney and Shetland, Norse genetic impact is low, suggesting they can't have had much impact on red hair in any case.

rms2
09-06-2013, 12:03 PM
I'm running out of time this morning, unfortunately, but of course Norway has the highest frequency of L21 of any Scandinavian country, interestingly enough. Perhaps its red hair carrier frequency reflects British Isles input during the Viking Age and after. In other words, modern Norway has a profile that has been modified by Isles input. The Norse Vikings themselves would have predated that input.

During the 1st century, Tacitus, in his Agricola, described the Caledonians of what is now Scotland as having "large limbs" and "red hair".

avalon
09-06-2013, 12:46 PM
I'm running out of time this morning, unfortunately, but of course Norway has the highest frequency of L21 of any Scandinavian country, interestingly enough. Perhaps its red hair carrier frequency reflects British Isles input during the Viking Age and after. In other words, modern Norway has a profile that has been modified by Isles input. The Norse Vikings themselves would have predated that input.

During the 1st century, Tacitus, in his Agricola, described the Caledonians of what is now Scotland as having "large limbs" and "red hair".

My understanding is that the precise location of the Caledonians' homeland within Scotland is unknown. And they were only one tribe of several mentioned by the Romans so not necessarily representative of other Scottish tribes.

I do wonder whether the Brigantes of Northern England carried significant amounts of red hair as most studies seem to show higher frequencies there?

rms2
09-07-2013, 11:58 AM
My understanding is that the precise location of the Caledonians' homeland within Scotland is unknown. And they were only one tribe of several mentioned by the Romans so not necessarily representative of other Scottish tribes.

I do wonder whether the Brigantes of Northern England carried significant amounts of red hair as most studies seem to show higher frequencies there?

Ptolemy's map from his Geographia shows the Caledonii as a highland tribe spanning the Highlands from the Moray Firth on the east to the Firth of Lorn on the west. The "Otadini" (more commonly called the Votadini) of Gododdin occupied the area on BritainsDNA's red hair carriers map showing the highest frequency of red hair carriers. I mentioned before that they were the source of the famous "Men of the North" who went to Wales in the post-Roman period.

672

I wonder if Tacitus wasn't using "Caledonians" as a general appellation for all of the inhabitants of Scotland, however.

rms2
09-07-2013, 01:17 PM
. . .

I do wonder whether the Brigantes of Northern England carried significant amounts of red hair as most studies seem to show higher frequencies there?

Busby's England Northwest, which is the closest we get to the Brigantes, I guess, had L21 at 40.4%, which is pretty high.

Unfortunately, they did not sample SE Scotland, but their NE Scotland sample was 52.2% L21. They give the map coordinates for that one as 57.51155 -3.24838, which is Aberlour, Moray (http://goo.gl/maps/bPBAZ).

Busby's NW Scotland sample was 48.8% L21, which is interesting, since it represents the ebb of L21 in Busby's Scottish samples. That is interesting because the place with the lowest L21 frequency in Scotland is also the place BritainsDNA shows as having the lowest frequency of red hair carriers in Scotland. Busby's map coordinates for it are 57.53593 -6.22627 (http://goo.gl/maps/a3rDT). That is in the 29% red hair carriers zone of "Scotland North & West" on BritainsDNA's red hair carriers map. Of course, 29% red hair carriers is still higher than anyplace in England south of Yorkshire.

Busby's West Scotland sample was 66.7% L21. The map coordinates for it are 55.99424 -5.44403 (http://goo.gl/maps/1NFlj), which put it in the 35% red hair carriers zone of "Scotland South & West" on the BritainsDNA red hair carriers map.

avalon
09-08-2013, 07:34 PM
Ptolemy's map from his Geographia shows the Caledonii as a highland tribe spanning the Highlands from the Moray Firth on the east to the Firth of Lorn on the west. The "Otadini" (more commonly called the Votadini) of Gododdin occupied the area on BritainsDNA's red hair carriers map showing the highest frequency of red hair carriers. I mentioned before that they were the source of the famous "Men of the North" who went to Wales in the post-Roman period.

672


Cunliffe has a map in Britain Begins that puts them further east than that but either way the Central Highlands and Grampian are both areas where higher red hair levels have been observed.



I wonder if Tacitus wasn't using "Caledonians" as a general appellation for all of the inhabitants of Scotland, however.

You might be right there but we shouldn't assume that because Tacitus met some red haired people in Scotland that all the inhabitants of Scotland were red haired.

There would have been a variety of physical characteristics amongst the pre-Roman Isles inhabitants just as there are today.

rms2
09-09-2013, 08:04 AM
Cunliffe has a map in Britain Begins that puts them further east than that but either way the Central Highlands and Grampian are both areas where higher red hair levels have been observed.



You might be right there but we shouldn't assume that because Tacitus met some red haired people in Scotland that all the inhabitants of Scotland were red haired.

There would have been a variety of physical characteristics amongst the pre-Roman Isles inhabitants just as there are today.

I wasn't assuming anything, certainly not that all the inhabitants of Scotland had red hair at any time. I also doubt Tacitus was relying on his own observations. He was probably reporting those of his father-in-law, Agricola, who was Roman military commander in Britain.

rms2
09-09-2013, 11:50 AM
The point in mentioning Tacitus' description of the Caledonians is that red hair was common enough among them to be remarked on by a 1st century Roman historian long before the arrival of Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Flemings, etc., in Scotland.

avalon
09-10-2013, 04:30 PM
The point in mentioning Tacitus' description of the Caledonians is that red hair was common enough among them to be remarked on by a 1st century Roman historian long before the arrival of Anglo-Saxons, Vikings, Normans, Flemings, etc., in Scotland.


I wasn't assuming anything, certainly not that all the inhabitants of Scotland had red hair at any time. I also doubt Tacitus was relying on his own observations. He was probably reporting those of his father-in-law, Agricola, who was Roman military commander in Britain.

On the above points we are in total agreement. ;)

My additional point though is that recent genetic studies have shown that both Norway and Denmark have reasonable levels of red hair carriers. I accept that some of this proportion in Norway may be due to Isles input in the post-Viking age as slaves or whatever.

Over the years I have also read historical accounts of red headed Scandinavians - off the top of my head, Erik the Red, William the Conqueror and his son William Rufus spring to mind.

Clearly, Scandinavians and Germanics have brought some element of red hair to Britain.

rms2
09-11-2013, 12:35 AM
On the above points we are in total agreement. ;)

My additional point though is that recent genetic studies have shown that both Norway and Denmark have reasonable levels of red hair carriers. I accept that some of this proportion in Norway may be due to Isles input in the post-Viking age as slaves or whatever.

Over the years I have also read historical accounts of red headed Scandinavians - off the top of my head, Erik the Red, William the Conqueror and his son William Rufus spring to mind.

Clearly, Scandinavians and Germanics have brought some element of red hair to Britain.

They may have, but so could the odd Lithuanian or Italian. If that BritainsDNA map is right, the areas most heavily settled by Germanics/Scandinavians are among the lowest in red hair carriers. Given that, it's hard to see them as a major source of the red hair variants in the Isles.

ADW_1981
09-11-2013, 02:47 AM
On the above points we are in total agreement. ;)

My additional point though is that recent genetic studies have shown that both Norway and Denmark have reasonable levels of red hair carriers. I accept that some of this proportion in Norway may be due to Isles input in the post-Viking age as slaves or whatever.



Maybe, but most likely not. It's not like Vikings were a race, nor are R1b more susceptible to being enslaved. What I suspect happened, was the pre-migration period coastal Norwegians were R1b like their British cousins. The "migration" period brought a cascade effect of DNA from the north German plain. The earlier inhabitants may have been Germanic speaking anyways, but I suppose pre-IE speaking is possible. Note that western Norway, south-western Norway, and Iceland all have close to 40% R1b of various types. I find it hard to believe that settling British fishermen, or worse yet 'Basque' *snicker* fishermen are responsible for this. It's possible that an R1b guy carried the red haired trait originally, but my money is on a U4 or U5 woman being the originator. A blonde variant in the same said haplogroup is also very likely further east in Europe.

avalon
09-11-2013, 10:53 AM
They may have, but so could the odd Lithuanian or Italian. If that BritainsDNA map is right, the areas most heavily settled by Germanics/Scandinavians are among the lowest in red hair carriers. Given that, it's hard to see them as a major source of the red hair variants in the Isles.

Perhaps you missed this point in another thread but the Danes settled heavily in Yorkshire and according the BritainsDNA Yorkshire has the highest percentage of red hair carriers in England. Perhaps the Danes carried higher red hair frequencies than the Saxons, for whatever reason?

How do we also explain the lower frequency of red hair carriers found in SW England? This area includes Cornwall - the most Celtic part of England.

rms2
09-11-2013, 11:58 AM
Perhaps you missed this point in another thread but the Danes settled heavily in Yorkshire and according the BritainsDNA Yorkshire has the highest percentage of red hair carriers in England. Perhaps the Danes carried higher red hair frequencies than the Saxons, for whatever reason?

How do we also explain the lower frequency of red hair carriers found in SW England? This area includes Cornwall - the most Celtic part of England.

But a large part of the Danelaw extended down into SE England where red hair carriers are at their ebb in Britain. It doesn't make sense, if the Danes are to be credited with contributing much to the red hair carrier population.

SW England still has a frequency of 28% on the BritainsDNA red hair carriers map. That's higher than the rest of England south of Yorkshire. Why it's not up into the 30%+ range, I'm not sure. Perhaps its proximity to France has something to do with it. It could be the influx of the Anglo-Saxon English that has driven the percentage down.

I would like to see a really good and thorough red hair study, one that breaks down the different red hair variants by region. It occurs to me (and I've mentioned this before) that the variant most responsible for red hair in one country or region might not be the same one primarily responsible for the red hair in another.

rms2
09-11-2013, 12:07 PM
Maybe we should confine the red hair discussion to the thread about red hair over in the autosomal subforum and steer this thread back to Wales. I know I posted the red hair carriers map here, but my intent was to show how high the frequency was in Wales, not to get caught up in whether or not the Danes contributed much or little to the British pool of redheads.

avalon
09-11-2013, 02:02 PM
But a large part of the Danelaw extended down into SE England where red hair carriers are at their ebb in Britain. It doesn't make sense, if the Danes are to be credited with contributing much to the red hair carrier population.

Danish settlement in Yorkshire was heavier than it was in East Anglia as indicated by place names and impact on dialect so perhaps the East Anglians had less Danish genetic input. I am trying to understand why there is such as difference between red hair carriers in these two areas, 36% v 21%?



I would like to see a really good and thorough red hair study, one that breaks down the different red hair variants by region. It occurs to me (and I've mentioned this before) that the variant most responsible for red hair in one country or region might not be the same one primarily responsible for the red hair in another.

This is a valid point about the different gene variants for red hair and how it corresponds to different regions but if we accept the Royrik 2010 study on JeanM's site then clearly Denmark has significant amounts of at least one red hair gene.

avalon
09-11-2013, 02:02 PM
Maybe we should confine the red hair discussion to the thread about red hair over in the autosomal subforum and steer this thread back to Wales. I know I posted the red hair carriers map here, but my intent was to show how high the frequency was in Wales, not to get caught up in whether or not the Danes contributed much or little to the British pool of redheads.

Fair enough, I'll keep this to Wales from now on.

avalon
09-11-2013, 02:42 PM
Maybe, but most likely not. It's not like Vikings were a race, nor are R1b more susceptible to being enslaved. What I suspect happened, was the pre-migration period coastal Norwegians were R1b like their British cousins. The "migration" period brought a cascade effect of DNA from the north German plain. The earlier inhabitants may have been Germanic speaking anyways, but I suppose pre-IE speaking is possible. Note that western Norway, south-western Norway, and Iceland all have close to 40% R1b of various types. I find it hard to believe that settling British fishermen, or worse yet 'Basque' *snicker* fishermen are responsible for this. It's possible that an R1b guy carried the red haired trait originally, but my money is on a U4 or U5 woman being the originator. A blonde variant in the same said haplogroup is also very likely further east in Europe.

deleted due to lack of Welsh content.

rms2
09-11-2013, 08:08 PM
Danish settlement in Yorkshire was heavier than it was in East Anglia as indicated by place names and impact on dialect so perhaps the East Anglians had less Danish genetic input. I am trying to understand why there is such as difference between red hair carriers in these two areas, 36% v 21%?

Okay, a little more about this issue.

I'm not at home, so I don't have access to Busby's spreadsheet (it's on my home computer), but I remember pretty well that the level of L21 is significantly higher in Busby's northern England sample than in its central and southeastern England samples. I'm not saying L21=red hair, that would be silly, but if one accepts L21 as a reasonable proxy for the insular Celts, and thus an indication of Celtic survival in an area, then the higher rate of red hair carriers in Yorkshire could be down to a higher rate of Celtic survival, just as it appears to be in the other places on that BritainsDNA red hair carriers map.




This is a valid point about the different gene variants for red hair and how it corresponds to different regions but if we accept the Royrik 2010 study on JeanM's site then clearly Denmark has significant amounts of at least one red hair gene.

I haven't read the Royrvik report, but I suspect it tested some sort of red hair variant that is particularly Scandinavian, or perhaps the one most common in Scandinavia. I suspect that is the case because of the oddly low frequency for Ireland. I have never seen a result that low for Ireland, so I would like to know which variant or variants she looked at.

It's too bad we discussed this issue so much in this thread instead of in the one specifically about red hair.

avalon
09-12-2013, 08:15 PM
There's also the point that the Welsh Hg E, may belong to a specific subclade that isn't reflective of say "roman origins". I'm leary of talk about legioners etc it reminds me of all the talk about R1b been "basque hunter/gathers".

What's interesting is I've heard of a number of cases where native Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht (Irish speaking areas) have come back as Haplogroup E.

Again not knowing the structure of Haplogroup E in europe it wouldn't surprise me if there are specific subclades that have distinctive distribution in western europe -- just as for example the clades of R1b-P312 show quite distinctive distribution.

-Paul
(DF41+)

I must admit I am intrigued by Haplogroup E in North Wales, not least because my grandmother was born only a few miles from Abergele.

I find it very interesting that Hg E is found in the Gaeltacht as well and I wonder whether there is any connection? Although rare in Britain today perhaps it was once more common? I believe ancient DNA suggests this could be the case with G2a in Europe.

I have always thought that due to its mountainous nature and relative isolation, North Wales was a likely place to have preserved ancient lineages. It is partly due to its topography that North Wales, particularly Gwynedd, has preserved the Welsh language better than other parts of Wales.

I don't know much about the Gaeltacht but I suppose it resisted the spread of the English language for similar reasons.

rms2
09-12-2013, 11:50 PM
The E1b1b in Wales and Ireland could descend from Neolithic settlers, although E1b1b is really pretty scarce in both places. I think it is only in the Abergele region that it reaches such an oddly high frequency. Otherwise, E1b1b is rare in the Isles.

avalon
09-13-2013, 06:58 PM
The E1b1b in Wales and Ireland could descend from Neolithic settlers, although E1b1b is really pretty scarce in both places. I think it is only in the Abergele region that it reaches such an oddly high frequency. Otherwise, E1b1b is rare in the Isles.

I guess because it is so rare in the Isles, Hg E suffers from lack of hobbyist interest - unlike R1b for obvious reasons.

Hopefully, we will get some answers eventually!

rms2
10-06-2013, 07:16 PM
A man goes into a bar in Washington, D.C., and notices three rather large female tourists. After listening to them converse with one another for a few minutes, the man says, "Pardon me for interrupting, ladies. I couldn't help but notice your accents. Are you from Scotland?"

"That's Wales!" one of the women objects, indignantly.

"Oh, sorry," the man replies. "Are you whales from Scotland?" :biggrin1:

MoonBeam
11-10-2013, 12:06 AM
Interesting topic :D

E1b1b in Wales probably stems from those of Roman descent, and traders who came to Alba for the copper produced here. Alot of trade going on back then in the Bronze Age with Britain itself. I wont guess on the numbers but id also say a substantial amount of welsh people are of non-Brythonic descent due to migration during the coal boom and the industry that existed here, and thats just the more recent migration, not including the various colonization attempts since 1066.

Wouldnt really associate celtic hold outs with them speaking a celtic language, i've come across asians who speak fluent welsh, where as I struggle stringing a sentence together, could have been recolonization of viking settlers in North Scotland. Id also hazard a guess that the North of England and Southern Scotland has quite a hidden celtic population. Strathclyde, which was the last kingdom of the Hen Ogledd was annexed by Scotland rather than invaded by the English like the other Kingdoms suggesting there'd probably be a few of Briton descent there. Funnily enough I've got the ginger gene, I live in Glamorgan but my 12 marker tests seemed to congregate in the Scottish lowlands. :P

Would agree with the Y database lacking though, i only had 3 matches in Wales (12 and 25 marker tests)

gowanlock
02-11-2014, 04:54 PM
Any update on this study, Andy?
Phillip
E V13 (North Wales)

Cascio
02-11-2014, 05:27 PM
[QUOTE

How do we also explain the lower frequency of red hair carriers found in SW England? This area includes Cornwall - the most Celtic part of England.[/QUOTE]

The 28 per cent is for all of South-West England and for all we know Cornwall on its own may have a figure over 30 per cent as in most of the so-called "Celtic Fringe".

Anglecynn
02-11-2014, 06:01 PM
[QUOTE

How do we also explain the lower frequency of red hair carriers found in SW England? This area includes Cornwall - the most Celtic part of England.

The 28 per cent is for all of South-West England and for all we know Cornwall on its own may have a figure over 30 per cent as in most of the so-called "Celtic Fringe".[/QUOTE]

Would be interesting to see SW broken down more. That area on the map also includes areas that are genetically quite similar to the east of England, so it's possibly that is watering it down somewhat. Although it's also possible that there is just simply less red hair in Cornwall than in other genetically largely Celtic areas. It could be 30-40% but wouldn't show up that strongly overall because the eastern edge of that range probably has similar amounts of red hair to the southeast and midlands.

Brunetmj
02-18-2014, 07:09 PM
I did not look through all of this thread to see if this has been mentioned, however I thought it may be of interest to those of Welch desent.
Mark Jost began the following thread describing our new subclade FGC5496

FGC5496 (L21>DF13>FGC5496) and Subclades

On the last page he writes:

Dr. Andy Grierson, University of Sheffield, has been involved in a long term DNA project which now has a large sample set of privately collected DNA as part of an ongoing research project in Wales, looking at history through genetics. This project has a minimum requirement for testing, the selected Father's father must be born in north Wales, (and a) Welsh surname.

Dr. Grierson gave me a little information that he has been chipping away at DF13 for the past couple of years. He stated, "I must have identified branches for more than half of the DF13s now, but still have >100 that remain DF13*. Your SNP (FGC5496) was one of the more common sub-branches, and as I mentioned it sits above another marker I had previously identified."

Grierson remarked that a good number of these samples are positive for FGC5496 at 'Roughly 4% of men with ancestry in north Wales' and there is no other data available.
So if there are any DF13's who have already tested negative for other downstream SNP's this might be of interest..