PDA

View Full Version : Map of Z138 and Z59



The_Lyonnist
08-29-2017, 05:46 PM
I created a map of Z138 and Z59, the two branches of the West Germans of I1 : https://www.google.fr/maps/d/edit?hl=fr&mid=1dTEw3k1OvbhRumUOrIjdt9Sf8EE&ll=52.05379429799076%2C2.428408450781262&z=5

Give me your reading of the map.

Me, I have the impression that Z138 is slightly more southerly while Z59 is slightly more northerly.

18405

18406

18407

18408

spruithean
08-29-2017, 05:49 PM
Interesting, I like the mapping of these two clades. It still seems as though I-Z59 and I-Z138 followed the various Germanic migrations?

The_Lyonnist
08-29-2017, 05:55 PM
Interesting, I like the mapping of these two clades. It still seems as though I-Z59 and I-Z138 followed the various Germanic migrations?

Indeed.

JMcB
08-30-2017, 03:09 AM
Nicely done!

I came across this recently which may be of interest to some. You can isolate the subclades by unclicking the various boxes. Personally, I think your format is far more attractive.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1PDReeqwxCETA1cQgsjLhzUe7Kbo&ll=1.0633831369680204%2C-18.92488160000005&z=2

spruithean
08-30-2017, 03:50 AM
Nicely done!

I came across this recently which may be of interest to some. You can isolate the subclades by unclicking the various boxes. Personally, I think your format is far more attractive.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1PDReeqwxCETA1cQgsjLhzUe7Kbo&ll=1.0633831369680204%2C-18.92488160000005&z=2

Excellent!

I've been searching for something like this. It is certainly interesting seeing where each clade below I1-Z140 is dispersed. I find it interesting that so far from what I can see Y7198 is sort of focused around Ulster-Galloway-Northwest England, perhaps better dubbed Irish Sea? Or am I missing any new finds?

The_Lyonnist
08-30-2017, 01:10 PM
Now, you can see my map on MyMaps.

mwauthy
08-30-2017, 01:27 PM
I wonder if the high numbers in Great Britain are significant of some type of migration pattern or if it's just a result of more people getting tested there?

I also think that these subclades are older than any Germanic migrations so the term West Germanic might be a bit misleading. I think these subclades can be found in North, West, and East Germanic tribes hence why we see samples from Ireland to Russia.

spruithean
08-30-2017, 01:57 PM
I wonder if the high numbers in Great Britain are significant of some type of migration pattern or if it's just a result of more people getting tested there?

I also think that these subclades are older than any Germanic migrations so the term West Germanic might be a bit misleading. I think these subclades can be found in North, West, and East Germanic tribes hence why we see samples from Ireland to Russia.

I've wondered this myself. Perhaps it could be testing bias with some level of migration pattern that as you say could pre-date West Germanic movement? Perhaps something being overlooked?

The subclades of DF29 are definitely not restricted to North (L22), West (Z58) and East (Z63) Germanic groups, there is definitely overlap.

JMcB
08-30-2017, 03:17 PM
Excellent!

I've been searching for something like this. It is certainly interesting seeing where each clade below I1-Z140 is dispersed. I find it interesting that so far from what I can see Y7198 is sort of focused around Ulster-Galloway-Northwest England, perhaps better dubbed Irish Sea? Or am I missing any new finds?

At this point, it does seem to be clustering in the Northern British Isles. Which is what Hartley - the I-Z140 administrator believes also. Whether we can be more precise than that, I don't know. It's probably too early to tell.

JMcB
08-30-2017, 03:27 PM
I wonder if the high numbers in Great Britain are significant of some type of migration pattern or if it's just a result of more people getting tested there?

I also think that these subclades are older than any Germanic migrations so the term West Germanic might be a bit misleading. I think these subclades can be found in North, West, and East Germanic tribes hence why we see samples from Ireland to Russia.

I suspect there may be some testing bias involved. If the Germans and the Danes tested the way the Swedes and the Brits do (including the British diaspora), that map might look entirely different.

spruithean
08-30-2017, 06:38 PM
At this point, it does seem to be clustering in the Northern British Isles. Which is what Hartley - the I-Z140 administrator – believes also. Whether we can be more precise than that, I don't know. It's probably too early to tell.

Perhaps not only too early but also biased for Isles and North American membership. Perhaps we've yet to see Continental Y7198s and related clades.


I suspect there may be some testing bias involved. If the Germans and the Danes tested the way the Swedes and the Brits do (including the British diaspora), that map might look entirely different.

I hope the Germans and Danes eventually test at higher levels it could definitely provide a broader picture and perhaps a more accurate view of I-Z140 distribution beyond what we already see.

mwauthy
08-30-2017, 10:12 PM
My subclade I-FGC24357 which is below I-Z59 and about 2000 years old has been found in Sardinia possibly through east Germanic Goths or Vandals, in Wallonia Belgium possibly through west Germanic Franks, and in England through possibly west Germanic Saxons or north Germanic Vikings. So overlap with the older subclades is definitely a possibility.

Overlap also depends on the accuracy behind the science of TMRCA and snp mutations. If they are off by a 1000 years it can totally change which snps are associated with which historical migrations and peoples.

spruithean
09-03-2017, 09:51 PM
I've always wondered if perhaps estimations were slightly skewed and what kind of influence that would have on the commonly associated groups with the various I1-M253 subclades.

Interestingly they found I-Z59 alongside I-L1237 (below Z63) in Poland. Z63 and below is often dubbed East Germanic, clearly there was some degree of overlap if Z59 was present.

Hopefully overtime as the field progresses we get lucky and find some excellent aDNA containing more I-M253 and its subclades. Perhaps we can find some good pre-Neolithic samples of I-M253.

Sassoneg
09-05-2017, 01:15 PM
I've noticed similar things by browsing YFULL.

Z63 in all forms can be found in the British isles and flung around eastern europe, the balkans, Italy, and Portugal by the Migrations.

I'm negative for S2078/L1237 but trace Y to England.

The Germanic Tribes must have been thoroughly mixed before the Anglo-Saxon movement to the Isles.

spruithean
02-18-2018, 10:16 PM
I wonder if the high numbers in Great Britain are significant of some type of migration pattern or if it's just a result of more people getting tested there?

I also think that these subclades are older than any Germanic migrations so the term West Germanic might be a bit misleading. I think these subclades can be found in North, West, and East Germanic tribes hence why we see samples from Ireland to Russia.

Revisiting this comment, I'm even more curious. The general consensus seems to be that there is some Germanic component however I agree a number of these subclades are older than the Germanic migration era. Unfortunately for us, we are still hypothesizing and theorizing due to the lack of ancient DNA. I'm really hoping for some flood of I-M253 in aDNA results, perhaps a pipe dream but still a nice thought.


Nicely done!

I came across this recently which may be of interest to some. You can isolate the subclades by unclicking the various boxes. Personally, I think your format is far more attractive.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1PDReeqwxCETA1cQgsjLhzUe7Kbo&ll=1.0633831369680204%2C-18.92488160000005&z=2

This map will need to be updated, or atleast the A13241 folk need some updating. :biggrin1:

Voodoo_89
10-27-2019, 12:22 PM
Hi everyone, just got the test results, I1a-Z59 which is quite surprising because I'm from Croatia and I was born in Bosnia.
I'm thinking either Goths which passed through this area, also Osthrogoths ruled in Balkans (Istria, Dalmatia etc...) or Saxon miners which came to Bosnia in 13th and 14th century.

JonikW
10-27-2019, 10:58 PM
Hi everyone, just got the test results, I1a-Z59 which is quite surprising because I'm from Croatia and I was born in Bosnia.
I'm thinking either Goths which passed through this area, also Osthrogoths ruled in Balkans (Istria, Dalmatia etc...) or Saxon miners which came to Bosnia in 13th and 14th century.

Welcome to the club! Where did you test? If you test more deeply you could potentially find out more. Z59 has a TMRCA of 4,100ybp according to YFull, so knowing where you branch off from there could help you decide whether your clade is more German or more Scandinavian for example.

Voodoo_89
10-29-2019, 10:24 PM
Hi, I tested at Living DNA. This is the deepest subclade I got for this test, a deeper one would be I'm guessing Z382+ since this is the one found in Croatia, but then again could be another one.
What I gathered from eupedia forum is that Z59 is Scandiavian in it's root because Anglo Saxons for example moved from Scandinavia not the other way around and the group is still present in Scandinavia so all migrations of Z59 were going from Scandinavia to Britain, Germany, Belgium, France, Finland, Poland etc...

My autosomal DNA says I'm 70.1% northeast europe (Poland, Ukraine mostly) 14,8% West Balkans, 7,1% Baltics and 8% Europe south (Aegean mostly) judging by this it makes sense it could be the Goths since it looks like migration went from north of Poland, down to Ukraine then Greece then upwards to present day Croatia, Goths moved similair way.

mwauthy
10-29-2019, 11:02 PM
Hi, I tested at Living DNA. This is the deepest subclade I got for this test, a deeper one would be I'm guessing Z382+ since this is the one found in Croatia, but then again could be another one.
What I gathered from eupedia forum is that Z59 is Scandiavian in it's root because Anglo Saxons for example moved from Scandinavia not the other way around and the group is still present in Scandinavia so all migrations of Z59 were going from Scandinavia to Britain, Germany, Belgium, France, Finland, Poland etc...

My autosomal DNA says I'm 70.1% northeast europe (Poland, Ukraine mostly) 14,8% West Balkans, 7,1% Baltics and 8% Europe south (Aegean mostly) judging by this it makes sense it could be the Goths since it looks like migration went from north of Poland, down to Ukraine then Greece then upwards to present day Croatia, Goths moved similair way.

Hi Voodoo! I’m a co-administrator of the I-Z382 project at Ftdna and there are 0/308 kits positive for I-Z382 from Croatia at Ftdna. However, our brother clade I-L1450 has some kits in southeastern Europe that coincide well with Gothic migrations. Overall, our parent clade I-Z2040 is not very prolific so most likely you fall under a different I-Z59 subclade branch. Only further testing will be able to say one way or another.

You are correct that I-Z59 and many other I1 subclades that date prior to the Iron Age most likely have a southern Swedish (Scania) origin and then dispersed in multiple directions from there from the Iron Age on all the way to the Viking Age.

JonikW
10-30-2019, 08:49 AM
Hi, I tested at Living DNA. This is the deepest subclade I got for this test, a deeper one would be I'm guessing Z382+ since this is the one found in Croatia, but then again could be another one.
What I gathered from eupedia forum is that Z59 is Scandiavian in it's root because Anglo Saxons for example moved from Scandinavia not the other way around and the group is still present in Scandinavia so all migrations of Z59 were going from Scandinavia to Britain, Germany, Belgium, France, Finland, Poland etc...

My autosomal DNA says I'm 70.1% northeast europe (Poland, Ukraine mostly) 14,8% West Balkans, 7,1% Baltics and 8% Europe south (Aegean mostly) judging by this it makes sense it could be the Goths since it looks like migration went from north of Poland, down to Ukraine then Greece then upwards to present day Croatia, Goths moved similair way.

I agree about Scandinavia being a likely origin for Z59, but testing further could still help work out where your ancestors have been in the thousands of years since that clade was formed. Looking at the roots and locations of any matches and the dates of your splits from a common ancestor could help you decide whether your ancestor was an early Goth or a 14th century Saxon. On the other hand you might not match anyone at this stage…
Also, don't forget that a distant Y ancestor won't show up in your autosomal results in tests like Living DNA. In any case they only give a broad picture and small amounts of ethnicity can be noise.

Voodoo_89
10-30-2019, 09:46 AM
Hi Voodoo! I’m a co-administrator of the I-Z382 project at Ftdna and there are 0/308 kits positive for I-Z382 from Croatia at Ftdna. However, our brother clade I-L1450 has some kits in southeastern Europe that coincide well with Gothic migrations. Overall, our parent clade I-Z2040 is not very prolific so most likely you fall under a different I-Z59 subclade branch. Only further testing will be able to say one way or another.

You are correct that I-Z59 and many other I1 subclades that date prior to the Iron Age most likely have a southern Swedish (Scania) origin and then dispersed in multiple directions from there from the Iron Age on all the way to the Viking Age.


Out of 308 kits from Croatia how many are I1? How many Z-59 and what subclade of Z-59 are they?
I will perform further tests, currently I'm just surprised that I got I1 so trying to make sense out of it :)

Voodoo_89
10-30-2019, 09:47 AM
I agree about Scandinavia being a likely origin for Z59, but testing further could still help work out where your ancestors have been in the thousands of years since that clade was formed. Looking at the roots and locations of any matches and the dates of your splits from a common ancestor could help you decide whether your ancestor was an early Goth or a 14th century Saxon. On the other hand you might not match anyone at this stage…
Also, don't forget that a distant Y ancestor won't show up in your autosomal results in tests like Living DNA. In any case they only give a broad picture and small amounts of ethnicity can be noise.

I will perform further tests, Living DNA has an option to get detail ancestry migration so that could help out.
Where did you perform tests?

mwauthy
10-30-2019, 11:59 AM
Out of 308 kits from Croatia how many are I1? How many Z-59 and what subclade of Z-59 are they?
I will perform further tests, currently I'm just surprised that I got I1 so trying to make sense out of it :)

Here are some numbers for Croatia at Ftdna:

Total Kits: 163/175,184
I1 (I-M253 + 312 SNPs): 12/20,184
I-Z59: 0/3,728
I-Z382 + 2 SNPs: 0/308

As you can see by the numbers Croatia is not well represented in the Ftdna database and especially under I-Z59. Also, since I-Z382 + 2 SNPs only accounts for 8.3% of I-Z59 the odds are that you will fall on a different downstream branch after you complete further testing.

Voodoo_89
10-30-2019, 02:48 PM
Here are some numbers for Croatia at Ftdna:

Total Kits: 163/175,184
I1 (I-M253 + 312 SNPs): 12/20,184
I-Z59: 0/3,728
I-Z382 + 2 SNPs: 0/308

As you can see by the numbers Croatia is not well represented in the Ftdna database and especially under I-Z59. Also, since I-Z382 + 2 SNPs only accounts for 8.3% of I-Z59 the odds are that you will fall on a different downstream branch after you complete further testing.


Little silly question, but is this 163 kits from Croatia out of total database of 175,184?
Also for I1 that's 12 kits positive for I1 from Croatia or?
And I guess now it's: I-Z59: 1/3,728?

mwauthy
10-30-2019, 03:26 PM
Little silly question, but is this 163 kits from Croatia out of total database of 175,184?
Also for I1 that's 12 kits positive for I1 from Croatia or?
And I guess now it's: I-Z59: 1/3,728?

Yes there are 163 kits that claim Croatia as their patrilineal country of origin out of 175,184 total kits in the Ftdna database.

Yes there are 12 people that claim Croatia as their patrilineal country of origin who are positive for at least I1 (I-M253 + 312 SNPs) in the Ftdna database.

Yes if you eventually test with Ftdna there will be 1 kit from Croatia that is positive for at least I-Z59 out of 3,729 kits that are positive for at least I-Z59 in the Ftdna database.

JonikW
10-30-2019, 03:46 PM
I will perform further tests, Living DNA has an option to get detail ancestry migration so that could help out.
Where did you perform tests?

Great that you're testing further. I've used FTDNA for Y testing and uploaded to YFull (also some SNPs at YSEQ before that). For autosomal: FTDNA, My Heritage, Living DNA, Ancestry and 23andme.

Voodoo_89
10-30-2019, 03:47 PM
Yes there are 163 kits that claim Croatia as their patrilineal country of origin out of 175,184 total kits in the Ftdna database.

Yes there are 12 people that claim Croatia as their patrilineal country of origin who are positive for at least I1 (I-M253 + 312 SNPs) in the Ftdna database.

Yes if you eventually test with Ftdna there will be 1 kit from Croatia that is positive for at least I-Z59 out of 3,729 kits that are positive for at least I-Z59 in the Ftdna database.


Hmm interesting, 12 is not that bad :) I thought the number would be lower.
Ok, thanks for information.