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View Full Version : Corded Ware Material at Sion?... Implications for R1b?



R.Rocca
08-29-2017, 07:27 PM
In their review of the published material for the Le Petit-Chasseur (Sion) site, Harrison & Heyd 2007 proposed several alternative interpretations to those published 20 years earlier by the original archaeologists... O.J. Bocksberger and Alain Gallay. A few years ago, Gallay gave a response to the H&H interpretations, and one stands out as potentially having an important role in the R1b story. Basically, H&H had this to say about the chronology of dolmen MVI:


In the same manner, he saw the M VI finds linked to the traditions of the Auvernier culture.
However, when looking closely at the whole of the material culture from both dolmens,
no real distinction actually exists between them, and both collections are interchangeable,
and broadly contemporary in the Final Neolithic.

To that, Gallay replied as follows:


By contrast, the material of dolmen MVI includes pieces that have counterparts in the Auvernier-Corded Ware
horizon of the lakeside villages (2700–2500 BC), for example pottery items with horizontal handles,
Grand Pressigny flint daggers or whorl stones.

While the Sion material is missing a Corded Ware pot and ax, there is no doubt that the closest material is indeed from the Auvernier Corded Ware Culture as shown here:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Auvernier_Corded_Ware_Material.png

Here is some of the material from Dolmen MVI...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Dolmen_MVI_Auvernier_Corded_Ware_Culture_v02.png

Below is a snapshot of the area around 2600 BC with ancient DNA results added by me. Late Treilles Culutre samples are likely to be the same as the I2a/G2a Middle Treilles samples. My guess is that the Fontbuisse Culture will also be I2a due to the material similarities between it and Remedello (e.g. metopal style pottery). Metopal pottery is distributed throughout all of northern Italy during the Copper Age. We'll have to wait and see.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Sion_2600BC.png

rms2
08-30-2017, 05:37 PM
Olalde et al are supposed to be including some samples from Sion (sounds like a movie title) in their final BB paper. I hope they are able to squeeze a lot out of them.

rms2
09-03-2017, 03:13 AM
On another thread, Michał said there aren't any Swiss Corded Ware burials available for testing. If that's true, it's a shame. I saw a map from an article at Cambridge U.org that showed upper Danube Corded Ware burials. Let's hope they're close enough and eventually get tested.

TigerMW
09-23-2017, 08:18 PM
In their review of the published material for the Le Petit-Chasseur (Sion) site, Harrison & Heyd 2007 proposed several alternative interpretations to those published 20 years earlier by the original archaeologists... O.J. Bocksberger and Alain Gallay. A few years ago, Gallay gave a response to the H&H interpretations, and one stands out as potentially having an important role in the R1b story. Basically, H&H had this to say about the chronology of dolmen MVI:



To that, Gallay replied as follows:



While the Sion material is missing a Corded Ware pot and ax, there is no doubt that the closest material is indeed from the Auvernier Corded Ware Culture as shown here:

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Auvernier_Corded_Ware_Material.png

Here is some of the material from Dolmen MVI...

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Dolmen_MVI_Auvernier_Corded_Ware_Culture_v02.png

Below is a snapshot of the area around 2600 BC with ancient DNA results added by me. Late Treilles Culutre samples are likely to be the same as the I2a/G2a Middle Treilles samples. My guess is that the Fontbuisse Culture will also be I2a due to the material similarities between it and Remedello (e.g. metopal style pottery). Metopal pottery is distributed throughout all of northern Italy during the Copper Age. We'll have to wait and see.

http://www.r1b.org/imgs/Sion_2600BC.png
Do we have information about developments at Sion in regards to the ages of the earliest material finds?
I've always been in intrigued by the Italic Bell Beakers and we (maybe just me) seem to overlook them oftentimes.

Are the Italic Beakers an outgrowth from the conflicts at Sion or were they an input?

New news personally: New good Big Y match for my Pletcher lineage in Z209, the North-South cluster of R1b-DF27. The new match is an Italian from Genoa. My ancestor is supposed to be from the German/Swiss border area and received the boot for religious reasons (Ana-Baptist) in the 1700s. That side of the family thinks of themselves as Germans.

rms2
10-07-2017, 01:45 AM
I only recently discovered some Swiss ancestry in my family tree, with the surname Stutz. I have not yet been able to figure out what the y-dna haplogroup is, however.

razyn
09-05-2020, 01:59 PM
Here's a new paper that probably should be part of this discussion (although there may well be more recent threads that have superseded it in several respects). I haven't read it yet, it just appeared as a suggestion by Academia, so I'm sharing it. Lead author Eve Derenne apparently hasn't been cited yet on Anthrogenica. "Pottery technology as a revealer of cultural and symbolic shifts: Funerary and ritual practices in the Sion ‘Petit-Chasseur’ megalithic necropolis (3100–1600 BC, Western Switzerland)," Journal of Anthropological Archaeology (2020).

I downloaded a PDF copy here: https://www.academia.edu/42815881/DERENNE_E_ARD_V_BESSE_M_2020_Pottery_technology_as _a_revealer_of_cultural_and_symbolic_shifts_Funera ry_and_ritual_practices_in_the_Sion_Petit_Chasseur _megalithic_necropolis_3100_1600_BC_Western_Switze rland_Journal_of_Anthropological_Archaeology?email _work_card=abstract-read-more