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gyanwali
09-01-2017, 05:33 PM
# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 48.17
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 13.93
3 SE_Asian 12.65
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.05
5 WHG 9.08
6 Siberian_E_Asian 2.28
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 1.92
8 SW_Asian 0.92
What does this all mean?
BTW I am a Nepali Bahun.

parasar
09-01-2017, 07:04 PM
From just south of you:
Bihar Babhan

Quite similar to you.

Eurasia K9 ASI
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.63
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 17.80
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 12.15
4 SE_Asian 10.33
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.33
6 WHG 3.23
7 SW_Asian 2.53

I'm of the opinion that the CHG moniker is not to be taken seriously. The CHG samples are very isolated and their uniparental lines are closely related to those local to the Caucasus.

As you are from Nepal, you have a slightly higher east Asian showing up in your SE Asian, while I have slightly higher ASI as some Bihar populations, eg. Santhal (while not on the Indian cline) are ASI-rich.

But there is no doubt that South Asians have substantial ancestry from population(s) that have contributed to both the CHG and South Asians.

Zayd
09-01-2017, 07:59 PM
From just south of you:
Bihar Babhan

Quite similar to you.

Eurasia K9 ASI
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.63
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 17.80
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 12.15
4 SE_Asian 10.33
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.33
6 WHG 3.23
7 SW_Asian 2.53

I'm of the opinion that the CHG moniker is not to be taken seriously. The CHG samples are very isolated and their uniparental lines are closely related to those local to the Caucasus.

As you are from Nepal, you have a slightly higher east Asian showing up in your SE Asian, while I have slightly higher ASI as some Bihar populations, eg. Santhal (while not on the Indian cline) are ASI-rich.

But there is no doubt that South Asians have substantial ancestry from population(s) that have contributed to both the CHG and South Asians.

Parasar
Why the ASI is below 20% in this calculator in almost every south Asian?
I scored this:
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 42.78
2 SE_Asian 19.57
3 Ancestral_South_Indian 18.81
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.6
5 Siberian_E_Asian 5.44
6 WHG 4.19
7 W_African 1.37
8 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 0.23
9 SW_Asian 0.01

Do you think SE Asian absorbed some ASI?
Do all south Asians got ASI from Austroasiatics/Santhals
Or only the East Indian/Bengalis?

gyanwali
09-01-2017, 08:18 PM
From just south of you:
Bihar Babhan

Quite similar to you.

Eurasia K9 ASI
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 50.63
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 17.80
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 12.15
4 SE_Asian 10.33
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 3.33
6 WHG 3.23
7 SW_Asian 2.53

I'm of the opinion that the CHG moniker is not to be taken seriously. The CHG samples are very isolated and their uniparental lines are closely related to those local to the Caucasus.

As you are from Nepal, you have a slightly higher east Asian showing up in your SE Asian, while I have slightly higher ASI as some Bihar populations, eg. Santhal (while not on the Indian cline) are ASI-rich.

But there is no doubt that South Asians have substantial ancestry from population(s) that have contributed to both the CHG and South Asians.

But why is my WHG and SE Asian so high?

parasar
09-02-2017, 02:59 AM
Parasar
Why the ASI is below 20% in this calculator in almost every south Asian?
I scored this:
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 42.78
2 SE_Asian 19.57
3 Ancestral_South_Indian 18.81
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.6
5 Siberian_E_Asian 5.44
6 WHG 4.19
7 W_African 1.37
8 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 0.23
9 SW_Asian 0.01

Do you think SE Asian absorbed some ASI?
Do all south Asians got ASI from Austroasiatics/Santhals
Or only the East Indian/Bengalis?
Yes.

As to why ASI is low, it is because most South Asians have low numbers of ASI once you break up ancestral ASI into ASI, EHG, WHG, Siberian, SE Asian.
Ancestral ASI even contributes to CHG. The only components with little or no ancestral ASI would be W African, ENF, and SW Asian.

I think folk in eastern India - Nepal, Bihar etc - have an extra boost of ASI but no OoA population has no ancestral ASI. Basal and ancestral ASI are constructs, if you will, of a very early split OoA, perhaps in W or S. Asia (likely in the latter as it has both).

jortita
09-02-2017, 03:42 AM
My ancestry DNA results, I am Assamese

Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 40.45
SE_Asian 22.48
Ancestral_South_Indian 15.93
Siberian_E_Asian 7.21
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 5.16
WHG 3.41
Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.56
SW_Asian 1.44
W_African 1.36

MonkeyDLuffy
09-02-2017, 05:23 AM
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 53.49
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 16.71
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.28
4 SE_Asian 8.62
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 4.76
6 WHG 3.64
7 SW_Asian 1.50

Zayd
09-02-2017, 02:05 PM
Yes.

As to why ASI is low, it is because most South Asians have low numbers of ASI once you break up ancestral ASI into ASI, EHG, WHG, Siberian, SE Asian.
Ancestral ASI even contributes to CHG. The only components with little of no ancestral ASI would be W African, ENF, and SW Asian.

I think folk in eastern India - Nepal, Bihar etc - have an extra boost of ASI but no OoA population has no ancestral ASI. Basal and ancestral ASI are constructs, if you will, of a very early split OoA, perhaps in W or S. Asia (likely in the latter as it has both).
Thanks,
So, if a sample from paleolithic India get tested, he will be something mixed, rather being homogenous? Ive read somewhere ASI is somewhere between eastern eurasian and western eurasian,more toward eastern eurasian.
What was the ANI?, most of calculators show us as CHG/EHG/WHG ect. which came with neolithic and bronze age migrations, but ANI supposed to be present from paleolithic according to the genographic project.


My ancestry DNA results, I am Assamese

Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 40.45
SE_Asian 22.48
Ancestral_South_Indian 15.93
Siberian_E_Asian 7.21
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 5.16
WHG 3.41
Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.56
SW_Asian 1.44
W_African 1.36

The difference between you and me is due to east asian and ASI, you are slightly higher east Asian and slightly lower ASI than me, the western eurasian parts are similar more or less.Thats basically difference between a bengali and an assamese.

parasar
09-02-2017, 05:33 PM
Thanks,
So, if a sample from paleolithic India get tested, he will be something mixed, rather being homogenous? Ive read somewhere ASI is somewhere between eastern eurasian and western eurasian,more toward eastern eurasian.
What was the ANI?, most of calculators show us as CHG/EHG/WHG ect. which came with neolithic and bronze age migrations, but ANI supposed to be present from paleolithic according to the genographic project.

...

West Eurasian and East Eurasian as gleaned from present populations are quite broad as there have been multiple cross-overs in the past.
At the OoA split, I see Basal as West Eurasian and ancestral ASI (Ust Ishim) as East Eurasian. The latter admixed with Neanderthals, while the former did not.

So to answer what is ANI - it is admixed consisting of Basal and ancestral ASI components that had separated from ASI quite early and then only recently mixed again with ASI to form the ASI-ANI Indian cline.
Parts of ANI are very likely as old in South Asia as ASI.

kush
09-02-2017, 05:43 PM
I'm south indian and these are my results:

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 54.73
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 20.86
3 SE_Asian 14.26
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 3.99
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.14
6 SW_Asian 1.44
7 W_African 1.3
8 Siberian_E_Asian 1.28

parasar
09-02-2017, 07:06 PM
I'm south indian and these are my results:

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 54.73
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 20.86
3 SE_Asian 14.26
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 3.99
5 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.14
6 SW_Asian 1.44
7 W_African 1.3
8 Siberian_E_Asian 1.28

Your CHG and ASI are slightly higher than me. Overall these two have minimal clines in South Asia. Your EHG is lower. The WHG on the other hand - so strong in gyanwali, a brahman from Nepal - looks to have vanished in you.

parasar
09-02-2017, 07:24 PM
But why is my WHG and SE Asian so high?


...
BTW I am a Nepali Bahun.

When you use the term Bahun, are you using it for Brahman in general, or a specific category of Brahmans?
Thanks.

TJRocks760
09-02-2017, 07:25 PM
Parsar, what population of ASI is this comparing? Why is it lower than say when I run a test that shows 49% South Indian?

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 49.11
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 14.27
3 SE_Asian 10.7
4 SW_Asian 8.96
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 8.85
6 WHG 5.58
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 1.64
8 Siberian_E_Asian 0.85
9 W_African 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho 8.59
2 Pathan 9.42
3 Punjabi 9.75
4 Pashtun_Afghan 11.48
5 Balochi 15.92
6 Kurd_SE 15.93
7 Kalash 16.16
8 Tajik_Afghan 16.77
9 Brahui 17.04
10 Makrani 17.49
11 Uzbek_Afghan 17.72
12 Tajik_Pomiri 18.05
13 Bengali 18.42
14 Hazara_Afghan 24.76
15 Lezgin 26.3
16 Iranian 26.6
17 Azeri_Dagestan 26.86
18 KOTIAS 27.57
19 Chechen 28.17
20 Kumyk 29.26

gyanwali
09-02-2017, 07:56 PM
When you use the term Bahun, are you using it for Brahman in general, or a specific category of Brahmans?
Thanks.
In general. Can anyone answer my question?

parasar
09-02-2017, 07:57 PM
Parsar, what population of ASI is this comparing? Why is it lower than say when I run a test that shows 49% South Indian?

...

Does this test have either CHG or Iran Neolithic? The presence of either of these should wipe out much of South Indian.

parasar
09-02-2017, 08:07 PM
In general. Can anyone answer my question?

Yes it has been my contention for some time that high WHG seems to be a distinguishing characteristic of Brahmans including those in the east and the south.
It is also seen in this Treemix (b) as a CEU input in the Roma paper.
The migration weight for Brahmans is higher than for Pakhtoons, Sindhis, Punjabis, and Gujaratis that also show this input.

http://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-017-0547-x/MediaObjects/12863_2017_547_Fig4_HTML.gif

gyanwali
09-02-2017, 08:39 PM
Does this test have either CHG or Iran Neolithic? The presence of either of these should wipe out much of South Indian.

Yes it has CHG. Also, my WHG is high because I am Brahmin? How come it is so much though?

TJRocks760
09-02-2017, 08:44 PM
I tried deleting this msg.

Zayd
09-02-2017, 09:54 PM
Yes it has been my contention for some time that high WHG seems to be a distinguishing characteristic of Brahmans including those in the east and the south.
It is also seen in this Treemix (b) as a CEU input in the Roma paper.
The migration weight for Brahmans is higher than for Pakhtoons, Sindhis, Punjabis, and Gujaratis that also show this input.

http://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12863-017-0547-x/MediaObjects/12863_2017_547_Fig4_HTML.gif

Why i scored 4.19% WHG and also 7.6% EHG although being a Bengali Muslim? Perhaps some of my ancestors were brahmins,but later converted to muslim? The part of Bangladesh i'm from (the central-eastern part of Bangladesh) was heavily inhabited by Brahmins before partition of Bengal, still now many of West Bengali and Tripuri Brahmins trace their roots in East Bengal. Or Bengalis in general always had those amount of WHG/EHG alleles. Most of non Brahmin upper caste bengalis,like Kayasthas or Vaiydas score very similar results as bengali muslims in Harappaworld calculator IIRC.
Another question, S.Indian in harappaworld calculator is composed by only ASI or it is mixed with something else, ive heared that's half ASI and half west eurasian?

TJRocks760
09-02-2017, 10:32 PM
Does this test have either CHG or Iran Neolithic? The presence of either of these should wipe out much of South Indian.

Btw Hi Parsar, good to see you again. Was away for a while but getting back.

Thanks for the response.

When you say "should wipe out" much of South Indian could you expound on that? This is knowledge I don't have so I'd like to be on par.

jortita
09-03-2017, 12:48 AM
Thanks,
So, if a sample from paleolithic India get tested, he will be something mixed, rather being homogenous? Ive read somewhere ASI is somewhere between eastern eurasian and western eurasian,more toward eastern eurasian.
What was the ANI?, most of calculators show us as CHG/EHG/WHG ect. which came with neolithic and bronze age migrations, but ANI supposed to be present from paleolithic according to the genographic project.



The difference between you and me is due to east asian and ASI, you are slightly higher east Asian and slightly lower ASI than me, the western eurasian parts are similar more or less.Thats basically difference between a bengali and an assamese.

Zayd, i our difference is not slight as K9 ASI is an outdated calculator, if you compare our results on Kurds newer NearEast Neolithic K13, my South East Asian if I am not mistaken is more than double your figures. Secondly, your figures are higher than average West Bengal bengalis or even Bangladeshi people who are not from areas bordering either NE India or Myanmar. I think 1000 genomes BEB ratio, reflects the average Bangladeshi figures while the ones on Anthrogenica are generally people with ancestry from Sylhet or Comilla, who might even have Assamese ancestry, as Sylhets culture is somewhat similar to Assam.

ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 32.65
IRAN_NEOLITHIC 27.86
SE_ASIAN 15.81
CHG_EEF 7.63
EHG 5.85
SIBERIAN 3.92
PAPUAN 3.7
POLAR 1.77
SHG_WHG 0.59
SUB_SAHARAN 0.15
KARITIANA 0.08

gyanwali
09-03-2017, 01:49 AM
Zayd, i our difference is not slight as K9 ASI is an outdated calculator, if you compare our results on Kurds newer NearEast Neolithic K13, my South East Asian if I am not mistaken is more than double your figures. Secondly, your figures are higher than average West Bengal bengalis or even Bangladeshi people who are not from areas bordering either NE India or Myanmar. I think 1000 genomes BEB ratio, reflects the average Bangladeshi figures while the ones on Anthrogenica are generally people with ancestry from Sylhet or Comilla, who might even have Assamese ancestry, as Sylhets culture is somewhat similar to Assam.

ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 32.65
IRAN_NEOLITHIC 27.86
SE_ASIAN 15.81
CHG_EEF 7.63
EHG 5.85
SIBERIAN 3.92
PAPUAN 3.7
POLAR 1.77
SHG_WHG 0.59
SUB_SAHARAN 0.15
KARITIANA 0.08

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 33.97
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 31.59
3 CHG_EEF 11.17
4 EHG 10.05
5 SHG_WHG 3.53
6 SE_ASIAN 3.20
7 POLAR 2.57
8 PAPUAN 2.23

You are Assamese, right? Nepal is just West of y'all, and if you compare ours, it is very interesting, yet very consistent. You have a higher "Asian" component, while I have a higher EHG/CHG/WHG and slightly higher Neolithic Iran.

gyanwali
09-03-2017, 01:54 AM
Parsar, what population of ASI is this comparing? Why is it lower than say when I run a test that shows 49% South Indian?

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 49.11
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 14.27
3 SE_Asian 10.7
4 SW_Asian 8.96
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 8.85
6 WHG 5.58
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 1.64
8 Siberian_E_Asian 0.85
9 W_African 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Burusho 8.59
2 Pathan 9.42
3 Punjabi 9.75
4 Pashtun_Afghan 11.48
5 Balochi 15.92
6 Kurd_SE 15.93
7 Kalash 16.16
8 Tajik_Afghan 16.77
9 Brahui 17.04
10 Makrani 17.49
11 Uzbek_Afghan 17.72
12 Tajik_Pomiri 18.05
13 Bengali 18.42
14 Hazara_Afghan 24.76
15 Lezgin 26.3
16 Iranian 26.6
17 Azeri_Dagestan 26.86
18 KOTIAS 27.57
19 Chechen 28.17
20 Kumyk 29.26

TJRocks760, What is your ethnicity? Your results seem kinda sorta similar to mines.

parasar
09-03-2017, 02:33 AM
Btw Hi Parsar, good to see you again. Was away for a while but getting back.

Thanks for the response.

When you say "should wipe out" much of South Indian could you expound on that? This is knowledge I don't have so I'd like to be on par.

IMO, none (and really none) of the components of any admixture analysis is a true component.
First, the reason for these components existing is statistical. For example twins will form a component of their parents when in reality they are derived of their parents.
Second, these so called components are admixtures themselves. So if the South Indian component has a lot of overlap with Iran Neolithic or CHG, the former will mask the latter. But if we include true Iran Neolithic samples, the masking effect will be reduced or go away. This of course does not mean that the unmasked analysis is incorrect, since we don't have true South Indian samples from the Iran Neolithic time-frame.

parasar
09-03-2017, 02:36 AM
TJRocks760, What is your ethnicity? Your results seem kinda sorta similar to mines.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8015-My-AncestryDNA-vs-GEDMatch-Discrepancy&p=173215&viewfull=1#post173215

AJL
09-03-2017, 03:27 AM
Moved to Commercial Testing: Open-Source Projects.

TJRocks760
09-03-2017, 04:07 AM
Eh I have to get used to quoting. Sorry. Deleting

TJRocks760
09-03-2017, 04:08 AM
IMO, none (and really none) of the components of any admixture analysis is a true component.
First, the reason for these components existing is statistical. For example twins will form a component of their parents when in reality they are derived of their parents.
Second, these so called components are admixtures themselves. So if the South Indian component has a lot of overlap with Iran Neolithic or CHG, the former will mask the latter. But if we include true Iran Neolithic samples, the masking effect will be reduced or go away. This of course does not mean that the unmasked analysis is incorrect, since we don't have true South Indian samples from the Iran Neolithic time-frame.

Wow. My mind is blown. Thank you! I do have more questions but I'll leave it at that for now and do a bit more studying.

khanabadoshi
09-03-2017, 05:24 AM
SE_Asian
Early_Neolithic_Farmers
SW_Asian
Ancestral_South_Indian
Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer
WHG
Siberian_E_Asian
Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer
W_African


khanabadoshi
5.64
4.32
3.16
15.12
11.13
0
3.06
57.57
0


khana - FTDNA
5.76
4.61
3.34
15.02
11.25
0
2.79
57.23
0


khana - LivingDNA
8.48
0.66
5.96
13.09
12.68
0
4.05
55.07
0


Brother
5.68
3.34
3.54
14.4
10.63
4.54
1.14
56.44
0.31


Sister
4.76
2.17
3.27
15.15
9.37
3.69
2.32
59.26
0


mGM - Balq
7.34
7.91
1.02
10.56
12.56
7.69
5.67
47.25
0


mGM - Brother
11.34
8.22
3.24
8.21
12.54
9.47
7.79
39.18
0


pUncle - Jam
5.47
2.49
4.62
14.94
7.02
3.04
0.64
60.68
1.09


mAunt - Balq Daughter
7.05
5.32
2.22
14.24
10.47
2.84
4.15
52.91
0.81


mGFSister - Sadia
3.31
0.95
4.83
19.5
7.63
3.41
1.08
58.5
0.79


Cousin - Leghari
6.36
4.62
6.4
13.29
7.11
5.84
1.69
53.3
1.39


Mohmand Pashtun
4.4
7.17
8.01
9.73
11.4
10.14
3.7
44.94
0.51


Lahori - Rajput/Kashmiri
8.26
4.95
6.91
14.08
9.94
4.32
3.01
48.38
0.16


Multani - Syed/Durrani
7.73
2.61
9.54
13.59
9.42
7.55
2.07
47.49
0


Hoshiarpuri - Rajput
11.39
2.29
4.52
14.5
10.67
4.42
0
51.11
1.09


Ludhianvi - Saraswat Brahmin + Chamar 1
12.77
2.56
2.64
17.78
9.82
3.94
0.18
48.45
1.87


Ludhianvi - Saraswat Brahmin + Chamar 2
12.12
5.61
1.96
18.07
8.81
1.71
1.78
49.1
0.84


BALOCH_HGDP0052
2.9
4.42
9.17
9.43
7.01
0.62
0
66.44
0


BRAHUI_HGDP00001
4.78
5.36
12.29
9.39
7.14
0.96
0
59.14
0.94


KALASH_HGDP00267
0.22
6.04
1.76
12.18
13.79
4.99
5.23
55.79
0


PATHAN_HGDP00213
4.23
6.32
4.54
10.41
9.4
10.69
0
54.42
0


BURUSHO_HGDP00336
11.66
2.97
0.78
13.54
9.46
2.15
8.27
50.53
0.64

kush
09-03-2017, 06:55 AM
Your CHG and ASI are slightly higher than me. Overall these two have minimal clines in South Asia. Your EHG is lower. The WHG on the other hand - so strong in gyanwali, a brahman from Nepal - looks to have vanished in you.

Yeah parasar I have observed that I have almost no euro type ancestry in most calculators. In harappa, I score 0 NE euro, but I do get 4.32% caucasian. That is why i get minimal EHG and neolithic farmers but no WHG or high EHG, because thats associated with steppe or scythian type ancestry. I'm a non-brahmin south indian so thats why. We didn't get the so called aryan mixture like most north indians and brahmins did throughout the country.

Another thing I noticed is the CHG, baloch, gedrosian components have no cline whatsoever as you stated. South indians get as much CHG as most northwest indians, if not slightly more. I'm honestly confused about Baloch on harappa as well where I get 37.19, as well as the CHG here. I'm speculating a good portion of CHG and baloch has ASI/south indian mixture in it. I could be wrong though, but that seems like the most probably case.

Zayd
09-03-2017, 11:47 AM
Zayd, i our difference is not slight as K9 ASI is an outdated calculator, if you compare our results on Kurds newer NearEast Neolithic K13, my South East Asian if I am not mistaken is more than double your figures. Secondly, your figures are higher than average West Bengal bengalis or even Bangladeshi people who are not from areas bordering either NE India or Myanmar. I think 1000 genomes BEB ratio, reflects the average Bangladeshi figures while the ones on Anthrogenica are generally people with ancestry from Sylhet or Comilla, who might even have Assamese ancestry, as Sylhets culture is somewhat similar to Assam.

ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 32.65
IRAN_NEOLITHIC 27.86
SE_ASIAN 15.81
CHG_EEF 7.63
EHG 5.85
SIBERIAN 3.92
PAPUAN 3.7
POLAR 1.77
SHG_WHG 0.59
SUB_SAHARAN 0.15
KARITIANA 0.08

I once asked Razib about average Bengalis scores, he said the average non brahmin bengalis from both west Bengal and Bangladesh(including eastern Bangladesh) is the same.
Razib said,1000 genomes BEB possibly was lower caste hindus sample as removing east Asian they clustered with south Indians.
Yeah, it seems your east Asian is double than mine in Near East Neolithic K13.

Heres mine:
ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 44.78
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 28.28
3 EHG 9.7
4 SE_ASIAN 7.36
5 PAPUAN 3.92
6 SIBERIAN 3.06
7 SHG_WHG 1.6
8 KARITIANA 0.8
9 SUB_SAHARAN 0.28
10 POLAR 0.19
11 CHG_EEF 0.02

You have some CHG that i dont have, but mine is covered by some EHG/WHG.Our Siberian and papuan is similar.
Do you know what is Ancestral_Indian in this calculator, it definitely has ASI but it must have something else as well.

jortita
09-03-2017, 12:31 PM
I once asked Razib about average Bengalis scores, he said the average non brahmin bengalis from both west Bengal and Bangladesh(including eastern Bangladesh) is the same.
Razib said,1000 genomes BEB possibly was lower caste hindus sample as removing east Asian they clustered with south Indians.
Yeah, it seems your east Asian is double than mine in Near East Neolithic K13.

Heres mine:
ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 44.78
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 28.28
3 EHG 9.7
4 SE_ASIAN 7.36
5 PAPUAN 3.92
6 SIBERIAN 3.06
7 SHG_WHG 1.6
8 KARITIANA 0.8
9 SUB_SAHARAN 0.28
10 POLAR 0.19
11 CHG_EEF 0.02

You have some CHG that i dont have, but mine is covered by some EHG/WHG.Our Siberian and papuan is similar.
Do you know what is Ancestral_Indian in this calculator, it definitely has ASI but it must have something else as well.

Kurd has used Kusunda as the reference population, Kusundas also have a high East Asian percentage

jortita
09-03-2017, 12:32 PM
You can find this description on Gedmatch

ANCESTRAL INDIAN: Ancestral Indians, also referred to as ASI in some papers, are a theoretical construct, which basically describes an ancient population of India, believed to have been similar to either the Onge of the Andaman Islands, or perhaps some of the Austroasiatic tribals of currently inhabiting the sub-continent. I decided to use the Kusunda , a tribe of former hunter-gatherers of the forests of western Nepal, since using them produced Iran Neolithic levels in South and West Asians, somewhat more consistent with those in the recent papers

Zayd
09-03-2017, 01:43 PM
Kurd has used Kusunda as the reference population, Kusundas also have a high East Asian percentage

Surprisingly Kusunda tribals has only 15.50% ASI in K9 ASI calculator, they also have 17.37 % CHG, but they are heavily east Asian.

Sapporo
09-07-2017, 12:14 PM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 59.12
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 13.02
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.95
4 SE_Asian 6.04
5 WHG 4.89
6 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.87
7 Siberian_E_Asian 2.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi 4.88
2 Pathan 6.92
3 Kalash 8.3
4 Burusho 9.35
5 Kurd_SE 9.95
6 Pashtun_Afghan 13.37
7 Brahui 13.56
8 Balochi 13.99
9 Makrani 16.67
10 Tajik_Pomiri 20.87
11 KOTIAS 21.02
12 Tajik_Afghan 22.85
13 Bengali 23.95
14 Uzbek_Afghan 25.09
15 Lezgin 29.81
16 Azeri_Dagestan 30.66
17 Hazara_Afghan 31.69
18 Chechen 32.08
19 Iranian 32.51
20 Kurd_C 32.62

Thought I'd throw my results in too. You can ignore my CHG. It's eating up everything. Looks like most NW South Asians get some SW Asian (2-6%). I get 0%.

pegasus
09-08-2017, 06:25 AM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 59.12
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 13.02
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.95
4 SE_Asian 6.04
5 WHG 4.89
6 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.87
7 Siberian_E_Asian 2.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi 4.88
2 Pathan 6.92
3 Kalash 8.3
4 Burusho 9.35
5 Kurd_SE 9.95
6 Pashtun_Afghan 13.37
7 Brahui 13.56
8 Balochi 13.99
9 Makrani 16.67
10 Tajik_Pomiri 20.87
11 KOTIAS 21.02
12 Tajik_Afghan 22.85
13 Bengali 23.95
14 Uzbek_Afghan 25.09
15 Lezgin 29.81
16 Azeri_Dagestan 30.66
17 Hazara_Afghan 31.69
18 Chechen 32.08
19 Iranian 32.51
20 Kurd_C 32.62

Thought I'd throw my results in too. You can ignore my CHG. It's eating up everything. Looks like most NW South Asians get some SW Asian (2-6%). I get 0%.

How much Iran_N do u score Sapporo??

Sapporo
09-08-2017, 12:37 PM
How much Iran_N do u score Sapporo??

40.19 on Near East Neolithic K13.

bix
09-08-2017, 01:17 PM
1 WHG 39.98
2 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 23.47
3 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 14.33
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 13.46
5 SW_Asian 5.24
6 Siberian_E_Asian 2.29
7 Ancestral_South_Indian 1.24

pegasus
09-09-2017, 01:16 AM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 59.12
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 13.02
3 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.95
4 SE_Asian 6.04
5 WHG 4.89
6 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.87
7 Siberian_E_Asian 2.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi 4.88
2 Pathan 6.92
3 Kalash 8.3
4 Burusho 9.35
5 Kurd_SE 9.95
6 Pashtun_Afghan 13.37
7 Brahui 13.56
8 Balochi 13.99
9 Makrani 16.67
10 Tajik_Pomiri 20.87
11 KOTIAS 21.02
12 Tajik_Afghan 22.85
13 Bengali 23.95
14 Uzbek_Afghan 25.09
15 Lezgin 29.81
16 Azeri_Dagestan 30.66
17 Hazara_Afghan 31.69
18 Chechen 32.08
19 Iranian 32.51
20 Kurd_C 32.62

Thought I'd throw my results in too. You can ignore my CHG. It's eating up everything. Looks like most NW South Asians get some SW Asian (2-6%). I get 0%.

Some NW South Asian groups have some low levels of Iran_Chl , others like you are mainly Iran_N/Hotu , which I think is the dominant genome for most NW South Asians and bordering SC Asian groups. Btw how much CHG-EEF did u score? Could you post your K13 results?
The problem with this K9 it lumps most of the Iran_N /Hotu into CHG, which is confusing

khanabadoshi
09-09-2017, 05:19 AM
I don't find the Near East Neolithic K13 to be very accurate. If I remember correctly, Kurd had some issues when making this calculator. I could be wrong though.

Here are some results:





NEAR EAST NEOLITHIC K13
SE_ASIAN
ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC
CHG_EEF
POLAR
EHG
SUB_SAHARAN
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
KARITIANA
ANCESTRAL_INDIAN
NATUFIAN
SIBERIAN
PAPUAN
SHG_WHG


khanabadoshi
0.00%
0.44%
5.51%
0.00%
12.42%
0.07%
38.45%
1.51%
39.53%
1.67%
0.40%
0.00%
0.00%


khana FTDNA
0.00%
1.89%
4.68%
0.00%
11.84%
0.00%
37.83%
1.71%
39.59%
1.73%
0.72%
0.00%
0.01%


khana LivingDNA
0.00%
0.34%
4.43%
0.00%
13.40%
0.00%
36.72%
2.12%
39.66%
1.10%
2.23%
0.00%
0.00%


Brother
0.00%
0.48%
9.44%
0.79%
14.00%
0.00%
34.94%
0.00%
38.03%
1.74%
0.00%
0.00%
0.57%


Sister
0.00%
0.02%
7.52%
0.00%
14.56%
0.00%
36.62%
1.38%
39.88%
0.01%
0.00%
0.00%
0.01%


mGM - balq [Kho/Uzbek]
0.78%
0.51%
16.24%
1.07%
16.59%
0.00%
29.57%
2.30%
27.08%
0.67%
4.26%
0.15%
0.78%


mGM - Brother
6.49%
2.01%
15.93%
2.00%
13.31%
0.36%
27.79%
2.05%
19.62%
1.69%
8.16%
0.78%
1.78%


pUncle - jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0.00%
0.65%
7.25%
0.00%
11.52%
0.81%
41.50%
0.38%
37.46%
0.33%
0.00%
0.09%
0.01%


mAunt - Balq Daughter
1.40%
0.04%
10.96%
0.00%
13.44%
0.80%
33.93%
2.01%
33.35%
1.38%
1.23%
1.39%
0.07%


mGFSister - sadia
0.00%
0.72%
2.59%
0.00%
9.62%
0.37%
40.26%
0.00%
38.35%
4.39%
0.00%
2.00%
1.69%


Cousin - [Leghari]
0.42%
0.12%
11.18%
0.90%
7.35%
1.99%
40.39%
1.45%
31.55%
2.91%
0.00%
0.02%
1.72%


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
2.09%
0.00%
10.22%
1.98%
11.44%
0.00%
35.91%
0.30%
30.98%
5.04%
0.03%
0.00%
2.01%


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0.30%
2.04%
10.58%
0.72%
10.18%
0.88%
34.88%
0.25%
35.25%
2.25%
1.12%
0.67%
0.88%


Hoshiarpur - Rajput [Ghorewaha/Naru]
0.36%
0.00%
5.09%
0.00%
10.72%
0.83%
38.72%
1.46%
37.76%
1.07%
0.00%
2.11%
1.88%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 1
0.75%
0.00%
5.33%
1.14%
6.77%
0.69%
34.07%
0.63%
44.41%
1.41%
0.00%
1.60%
3.19%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 2
1.63%
0.00%
5.03%
0.00%
8.10%
0.00%
35.74%
0.00%
44.35%
1.50%
0.00%
2.21%
1.43%


IN - BRAHMIN - [Shuklha]
3.08%
0.00%
7.31%
0.23%
8.67%
0.87%
33.45%
0.00%
41.45%
0.00%
0.63%
2.44%
1.86%


IN - BRAHMIN; GAUR - [Vashisth]
0.00%
2.50%
14.16%
1.61%
13.08%
1.86%
29.82%
0.41%
29.90%
1.65%
0.87%
0.00%
4.11%


IN - BRAHMIN; KUNLIN - [Banerji]
0.52%
2.64%
7.99%
1.35%
8.65%
0.00%
35.24%
0.42%
37.77%
0.00%
1.09%
2.02%
2.32%


IN - BRAHMIN; MOHYAL - [Mohan]
1.78%
0.00%
5.72%
0.25%
7.84%
1.16%
37.42%
1.46%
40.10%
0.00%
1.06%
2.26%
0.96%


IN - BRAHMIN; NAGAR - [Nanavati]
0.37%
0.00%
8.47%
0.00%
13.40%
0.57%
35.10%
0.00%
33.88%
1.13%
0.00%
2.72%
4.35%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kamboh]
1.84%
1.59%
10.55%
0.00%
10.03%
0.00%
36.66%
0.45%
35.85%
0.00%
1.26%
0.17%
1.61%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kaur]
0.07%
1.41%
9.01%
0.00%
10.94%
2.61%
38.16%
0.29%
33.41%
0.55%
0.00%
1.60%
1.96%


IN; PUNJAB - Arora [Gulati]
0.00%
0.00%
12.21%
1.01%
11.67%
0.00%
36.81%
2.18%
30.50%
2.44%
0.00%
1.13%
2.04%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Cheema] 1
0.00%
0.24%
12.84%
1.76%
12.42%
0.52%
37.02%
0.98%
29.78%
1.48%
0.00%
1.08%
1.89%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Dhaliwal]
0.53%
0.97%
12.18%
1.98%
12.75%
0.00%
33.91%
1.12%
28.73%
2.53%
0.00%
1.81%
3.49%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Gill]
0.38%
2.05%
11.37%
1.16%
14.35%
1.05%
34.90%
0.69%
29.76%
0.94%
0.46%
0.18%
2.69%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Grewal]
0.00%
1.04%
11.43%
0.73%
11.43%
0.18%
38.42%
2.48%
30.33%
1.96%
0.00%
1.08%
0.91%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Heer]
0.56%
0.00%
12.83%
1.34%
12.87%
0.00%
34.05%
0.17%
29.40%
2.94%
0.00%
1.61%
4.21%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Hundal]
1.82%
1.10%
10.19%
1.37%
12.15%
0.00%
37.15%
0.00%
28.95%
2.14%
0.00%
1.31%
3.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Sandhu]
0.00%
1.16%
14.57%
1.00%
13.05%
0.00%
35.32%
1.22%
29.99%
1.04%
0.00%
0.00%
2.67%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 1
0.00%
0.00%
11.61%
1.81%
10.81%
0.00%
39.60%
0.00%
31.22%
1.39%
0.00%
0.74%
2.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 2
0.00%
0.75%
10.74%
1.02%
10.96%
0.14%
37.58%
1.55%
31.55%
2.62%
0.00%
1.34%
1.74%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 3
0.00%
0.00%
11.62%
1.83%
10.80%
0.00%
39.62%
0.00%
31.17%
1.42%
0.00%
0.77%
2.77%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Malhotra]
0.00%
0.00%
10.84%
1.15%
11.11%
0.00%
36.64%
0.76%
32.68%
2.41%
1.14%
1.51%
1.76%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [UNKNOWN]
0.66%
0.32%
11.28%
2.64%
10.79%
0.00%
35.05%
0.51%
31.58%
3.03%
0.77%
1.57%
1.79%


IN; PUNJAB - Ramgarhia [Sohal]
1.28%
0.00%
8.20%
0.16%
10.07%
0.00%
33.86%
0.22%
34.82%
1.98%
3.19%
2.52%
3.68%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 1
0.00%
0.00%
14.27%
0.41%
8.39%
0.00%
41.20%
2.03%
29.07%
2.94%
0.07%
1.10%
0.49%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 2
2.51%
0.00%
12.55%
0.72%
8.92%
0.00%
38.55%
1.07%
27.99%
4.12%
0.00%
1.36%
2.21%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 3
0.00%
1.12%
10.65%
0.00%
6.82%
0.86%
40.74%
1.75%
32.19%
1.10%
2.09%
1.55%
1.11%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 4
0.05%
2.15%
9.25%
0.00%
7.20%
0.00%
41.95%
1.71%
32.77%
2.02%
1.02%
1.87%
0.00%


IN; RJ - Maheshwari [Medatwal]
0.00%
0.00%
2.19%
0.00%
6.33%
0.53%
36.41%
1.28%
49.19%
0.10%
0.00%
2.04%
1.93%


IN; RJ - Marwari Jain [Singhvi]
1.83%
0.00%
1.02%
1.22%
7.06%
0.00%
38.10%
0.00%
46.80%
0.00%
0.00%
2.45%
1.50%


Kush - Telugu [Reddy]
3.98%
0.00%
1.70%
0.00%
1.84%
1.61%
41.18%
0.00%
46.67%
0.00%
0.00%
2.90%
0.11%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi/Maharashtra
1.43%
0.00%
1.87%
0.00%
6.66%
0.84%
37.63%
0.58%
46.20%
1.31%
0.00%
3.49%
0.00%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi Muslim??
0.00%
0.00%
11.72%
0.00%
12.31%
0.44%
37.65%
0.86%
30.76%
2.07%
0.17%
2.69%
1.33%


AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
5.51%
0.00%
13.99%
0.53%
11.22%
0.00%
34.33%
2.19%
22.24%
3.83%
2.37%
0.00%
3.79%


AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
1.59%
1.37%
17.78%
0.10%
10.69%
0.27%
35.82%
1.17%
18.96%
5.39%
3.73%
1.01%
2.13%


AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
3.62%
1.30%
16.22%
0.62%
11.94%
0.00%
34.13%
2.01%
22.64%
4.54%
0.00%
0.00%
2.97%


AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
1.88%
4.39%
17.94%
0.00%
8.87%
0.13%
35.08%
0.41%
18.77%
8.14%
2.50%
0.00%
1.90%


Mohmand - Pashtun
0.00%
2.72%
18.48%
0.00%
12.47%
0.65%
35.86%
1.86%
23.45%
0.10%
2.49%
0.76%
1.17%


PATHAN_HGDP00213
0.00%
0.24%
17.84%
0.43%
9.85%
0.00%
39.10%
0.00%
26.61%
0.96%
0.00%
0.98%
3.99%


PATHAN_HGDP00214
1.56%
1.71%
18.72%
0.00%
9.26%
0.08%
36.81%
0.46%
18.39%
6.20%
3.08%
0.39%
3.35%


BALOCH_HGDP0052
0.00%
1.86%
7.64%
0.00%
7.14%
0.00%
52.40%
0.79%
24.76%
3.89%
0.00%
0.00%
1.51%


BALOCH_HGDP0054
0.00%
5.61%
8.62%
0.54%
9.86%
0.00%
48.50%
0.00%
20.97%
4.74%
0.00%
0.00%
1.15%


BRAHUI_HGDP00001
0.00%
0.28%
6.18%
0.00%
6.20%
0.39%
50.11%
0.00%
25.90%
6.91%
0.00%
0.00%
4.04%


BRAHUI_HGDP00003
0.00%
9.50%
2.48%
1.78%
4.90%
0.79%
54.69%
0.00%
24.21%
1.21%
0.00%
0.44%
0.00%


KALASH_HGDP00267
0.00%
0.00%
14.44%
1.26%
12.85%
0.00%
41.05%
0.00%
25.04%
0.13%
3.17%
0.08%
1.98%


KALASH_HGDP00274
0.00%
0.00%
15.50%
0.32%
12.02%
0.00%
37.51%
0.72%
27.95%
2.10%
0.00%
0.99%
2.89%

pegasus
09-09-2017, 06:39 AM
I don't find the Near East Neolithic K13 to be very accurate. If I remember correctly, Kurd had some issues when making this calculator. I could be wrong though.

Here are some results:





NEAR EAST NEOLITHIC K13
SE_ASIAN
ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC
CHG_EEF
POLAR
EHG
SUB_SAHARAN
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
KARITIANA
ANCESTRAL_INDIAN
NATUFIAN
SIBERIAN
PAPUAN
SHG_WHG


khanabadoshi
0.00%
0.44%
5.51%
0.00%
12.42%
0.07%
38.45%
1.51%
39.53%
1.67%
0.40%
0.00%
0.00%


khana FTDNA
0.00%
1.89%
4.68%
0.00%
11.84%
0.00%
37.83%
1.71%
39.59%
1.73%
0.72%
0.00%
0.01%


khana LivingDNA
0.00%
0.34%
4.43%
0.00%
13.40%
0.00%
36.72%
2.12%
39.66%
1.10%
2.23%
0.00%
0.00%


Brother
0.00%
0.48%
9.44%
0.79%
14.00%
0.00%
34.94%
0.00%
38.03%
1.74%
0.00%
0.00%
0.57%


Sister
0.00%
0.02%
7.52%
0.00%
14.56%
0.00%
36.62%
1.38%
39.88%
0.01%
0.00%
0.00%
0.01%


mGM - balq [Kho/Uzbek]
0.78%
0.51%
16.24%
1.07%
16.59%
0.00%
29.57%
2.30%
27.08%
0.67%
4.26%
0.15%
0.78%


mGM - Brother
6.49%
2.01%
15.93%
2.00%
13.31%
0.36%
27.79%
2.05%
19.62%
1.69%
8.16%
0.78%
1.78%


pUncle - jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0.00%
0.65%
7.25%
0.00%
11.52%
0.81%
41.50%
0.38%
37.46%
0.33%
0.00%
0.09%
0.01%


mAunt - Balq Daughter
1.40%
0.04%
10.96%
0.00%
13.44%
0.80%
33.93%
2.01%
33.35%
1.38%
1.23%
1.39%
0.07%


mGFSister - sadia
0.00%
0.72%
2.59%
0.00%
9.62%
0.37%
40.26%
0.00%
38.35%
4.39%
0.00%
2.00%
1.69%


Cousin - [Leghari]
0.42%
0.12%
11.18%
0.90%
7.35%
1.99%
40.39%
1.45%
31.55%
2.91%
0.00%
0.02%
1.72%


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
2.09%
0.00%
10.22%
1.98%
11.44%
0.00%
35.91%
0.30%
30.98%
5.04%
0.03%
0.00%
2.01%


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0.30%
2.04%
10.58%
0.72%
10.18%
0.88%
34.88%
0.25%
35.25%
2.25%
1.12%
0.67%
0.88%


Hoshiarpur - Rajput [Ghorewaha/Naru]
0.36%
0.00%
5.09%
0.00%
10.72%
0.83%
38.72%
1.46%
37.76%
1.07%
0.00%
2.11%
1.88%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 1
0.75%
0.00%
5.33%
1.14%
6.77%
0.69%
34.07%
0.63%
44.41%
1.41%
0.00%
1.60%
3.19%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 2
1.63%
0.00%
5.03%
0.00%
8.10%
0.00%
35.74%
0.00%
44.35%
1.50%
0.00%
2.21%
1.43%


IN - BRAHMIN - [Shuklha]
3.08%
0.00%
7.31%
0.23%
8.67%
0.87%
33.45%
0.00%
41.45%
0.00%
0.63%
2.44%
1.86%


IN - BRAHMIN; GAUR - [Vashisth]
0.00%
2.50%
14.16%
1.61%
13.08%
1.86%
29.82%
0.41%
29.90%
1.65%
0.87%
0.00%
4.11%


IN - BRAHMIN; KUNLIN - [Banerji]
0.52%
2.64%
7.99%
1.35%
8.65%
0.00%
35.24%
0.42%
37.77%
0.00%
1.09%
2.02%
2.32%


IN - BRAHMIN; MOHYAL - [Mohan]
1.78%
0.00%
5.72%
0.25%
7.84%
1.16%
37.42%
1.46%
40.10%
0.00%
1.06%
2.26%
0.96%


IN - BRAHMIN; NAGAR - [Nanavati]
0.37%
0.00%
8.47%
0.00%
13.40%
0.57%
35.10%
0.00%
33.88%
1.13%
0.00%
2.72%
4.35%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kamboh]
1.84%
1.59%
10.55%
0.00%
10.03%
0.00%
36.66%
0.45%
35.85%
0.00%
1.26%
0.17%
1.61%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kaur]
0.07%
1.41%
9.01%
0.00%
10.94%
2.61%
38.16%
0.29%
33.41%
0.55%
0.00%
1.60%
1.96%


IN; PUNJAB - Arora [Gulati]
0.00%
0.00%
12.21%
1.01%
11.67%
0.00%
36.81%
2.18%
30.50%
2.44%
0.00%
1.13%
2.04%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Cheema] 1
0.00%
0.24%
12.84%
1.76%
12.42%
0.52%
37.02%
0.98%
29.78%
1.48%
0.00%
1.08%
1.89%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Dhaliwal]
0.53%
0.97%
12.18%
1.98%
12.75%
0.00%
33.91%
1.12%
28.73%
2.53%
0.00%
1.81%
3.49%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Gill]
0.38%
2.05%
11.37%
1.16%
14.35%
1.05%
34.90%
0.69%
29.76%
0.94%
0.46%
0.18%
2.69%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Grewal]
0.00%
1.04%
11.43%
0.73%
11.43%
0.18%
38.42%
2.48%
30.33%
1.96%
0.00%
1.08%
0.91%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Heer]
0.56%
0.00%
12.83%
1.34%
12.87%
0.00%
34.05%
0.17%
29.40%
2.94%
0.00%
1.61%
4.21%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Hundal]
1.82%
1.10%
10.19%
1.37%
12.15%
0.00%
37.15%
0.00%
28.95%
2.14%
0.00%
1.31%
3.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Sandhu]
0.00%
1.16%
14.57%
1.00%
13.05%
0.00%
35.32%
1.22%
29.99%
1.04%
0.00%
0.00%
2.67%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 1
0.00%
0.00%
11.61%
1.81%
10.81%
0.00%
39.60%
0.00%
31.22%
1.39%
0.00%
0.74%
2.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 2
0.00%
0.75%
10.74%
1.02%
10.96%
0.14%
37.58%
1.55%
31.55%
2.62%
0.00%
1.34%
1.74%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 3
0.00%
0.00%
11.62%
1.83%
10.80%
0.00%
39.62%
0.00%
31.17%
1.42%
0.00%
0.77%
2.77%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Malhotra]
0.00%
0.00%
10.84%
1.15%
11.11%
0.00%
36.64%
0.76%
32.68%
2.41%
1.14%
1.51%
1.76%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [UNKNOWN]
0.66%
0.32%
11.28%
2.64%
10.79%
0.00%
35.05%
0.51%
31.58%
3.03%
0.77%
1.57%
1.79%


IN; PUNJAB - Ramgarhia [Sohal]
1.28%
0.00%
8.20%
0.16%
10.07%
0.00%
33.86%
0.22%
34.82%
1.98%
3.19%
2.52%
3.68%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 1
0.00%
0.00%
14.27%
0.41%
8.39%
0.00%
41.20%
2.03%
29.07%
2.94%
0.07%
1.10%
0.49%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 2
2.51%
0.00%
12.55%
0.72%
8.92%
0.00%
38.55%
1.07%
27.99%
4.12%
0.00%
1.36%
2.21%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 3
0.00%
1.12%
10.65%
0.00%
6.82%
0.86%
40.74%
1.75%
32.19%
1.10%
2.09%
1.55%
1.11%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 4
0.05%
2.15%
9.25%
0.00%
7.20%
0.00%
41.95%
1.71%
32.77%
2.02%
1.02%
1.87%
0.00%


IN; RJ - Maheshwari [Medatwal]
0.00%
0.00%
2.19%
0.00%
6.33%
0.53%
36.41%
1.28%
49.19%
0.10%
0.00%
2.04%
1.93%


IN; RJ - Marwari Jain [Singhvi]
1.83%
0.00%
1.02%
1.22%
7.06%
0.00%
38.10%
0.00%
46.80%
0.00%
0.00%
2.45%
1.50%


Kush - Telugu [Reddy]
3.98%
0.00%
1.70%
0.00%
1.84%
1.61%
41.18%
0.00%
46.67%
0.00%
0.00%
2.90%
0.11%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi/Maharashtra
1.43%
0.00%
1.87%
0.00%
6.66%
0.84%
37.63%
0.58%
46.20%
1.31%
0.00%
3.49%
0.00%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi Muslim??
0.00%
0.00%
11.72%
0.00%
12.31%
0.44%
37.65%
0.86%
30.76%
2.07%
0.17%
2.69%
1.33%


AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
5.51%
0.00%
13.99%
0.53%
11.22%
0.00%
34.33%
2.19%
22.24%
3.83%
2.37%
0.00%
3.79%


AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
1.59%
1.37%
17.78%
0.10%
10.69%
0.27%
35.82%
1.17%
18.96%
5.39%
3.73%
1.01%
2.13%


AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
3.62%
1.30%
16.22%
0.62%
11.94%
0.00%
34.13%
2.01%
22.64%
4.54%
0.00%
0.00%
2.97%


AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
1.88%
4.39%
17.94%
0.00%
8.87%
0.13%
35.08%
0.41%
18.77%
8.14%
2.50%
0.00%
1.90%


Mohmand - Pashtun
0.00%
2.72%
18.48%
0.00%
12.47%
0.65%
35.86%
1.86%
23.45%
0.10%
2.49%
0.76%
1.17%


PATHAN_HGDP00213
0.00%
0.24%
17.84%
0.43%
9.85%
0.00%
39.10%
0.00%
26.61%
0.96%
0.00%
0.98%
3.99%


PATHAN_HGDP00214
1.56%
1.71%
18.72%
0.00%
9.26%
0.08%
36.81%
0.46%
18.39%
6.20%
3.08%
0.39%
3.35%


BALOCH_HGDP0052
0.00%
1.86%
7.64%
0.00%
7.14%
0.00%
52.40%
0.79%
24.76%
3.89%
0.00%
0.00%
1.51%


BALOCH_HGDP0054
0.00%
5.61%
8.62%
0.54%
9.86%
0.00%
48.50%
0.00%
20.97%
4.74%
0.00%
0.00%
1.15%


BRAHUI_HGDP00001
0.00%
0.28%
6.18%
0.00%
6.20%
0.39%
50.11%
0.00%
25.90%
6.91%
0.00%
0.00%
4.04%


BRAHUI_HGDP00003
0.00%
9.50%
2.48%
1.78%
4.90%
0.79%
54.69%
0.00%
24.21%
1.21%
0.00%
0.44%
0.00%


KALASH_HGDP00267
0.00%
0.00%
14.44%
1.26%
12.85%
0.00%
41.05%
0.00%
25.04%
0.13%
3.17%
0.08%
1.98%


KALASH_HGDP00274
0.00%
0.00%
15.50%
0.32%
12.02%
0.00%
37.51%
0.72%
27.95%
2.10%
0.00%
0.99%
2.89%





Wrt to many South Asian groups it seems good I think but you would know better khana, but the problem does arise with SC Asian groups, where the CHG-EEF can come either from Steppe groups or Iran_Chl . Also I am assuming part of the SI component is part Iran_N . In any case it does follow the same pattern.

Sapporo
09-11-2017, 07:52 AM
I don't find the Near East Neolithic K13 to be very accurate. If I remember correctly, Kurd had some issues when making this calculator. I could be wrong though.


Agreed. These are my results:

# Population Percent
1 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 40.19
2 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 36.2
3 EHG 13.65
4 CHG_EEF 7.04
5 SHG_WHG 2.78
6 SUB_SAHARAN 0.13


I don't recall the issues with this calculator khana but your family and me and a few others are scoring somewhat signifncantly higher AI on this calculator than some others who we score rather closely to on most calculators (ancient or modern). Were we part of the sample population for the K13 admixture calc?

Your brother and sister typically score slightly less or similar ASI/ASE/Indian/SI, etc. components to myself and other Jatts/Khatris/Arains but on here, the Jatt/Khatri/Arain samples you listed are scoring 29-32% of AI while I score 36% and your brother/sister/yourself score 38-40%. Meanwhile, your Uzbek/Kho grandmother is scoring 27%, which is only 2-3% less than some of the Jatts/Khatris/Arains (while normally scoring at levels near that of Afghan Pashtuns who are in the 19-22% range on there). The Hundal and Grewal samples you have listed are Sikh Jatts that I share with on 23andme and who score quite uniformly with me on other calcs. The Grewal individual is even from the same ancestral city as my paternal family.

If we examine the CHG_EEF, we see another stark difference between us and the Jatts/Khatris/Punjabis/Multani, etc. They are scoring in the teens while all of us score under 10%.

However, it seems our Iran_N, EHG and SHG_WHG results are more in line with the rest of the NW South Asians.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-11-2017, 03:02 PM
My closest match on oracle was Gujarati B. Which has never ever been my closest population.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 39.67
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 35.56
3 EHG 12.55
4 CHG_EEF 9.14
5 SHG_WHG 1.68
6 POLAR 0.73
7 PAPUAN 0.47
8 SE_ASIAN 0.14
9 NATUFIAN 0.07
10 KARITIANA 0.01

gyanwali
09-11-2017, 10:26 PM
# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 33.97
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 31.59
3 CHG_EEF 11.17
4 EHG 10.05
5 SHG_WHG 3.53
6 SE_ASIAN 3.2
7 POLAR 2.57
8 PAPUAN 2.23
9 KARITIANA 0.91
10 SIBERIAN 0.8

khanabadoshi
09-12-2017, 12:57 AM
Agreed. These are my results:

# Population Percent
1 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 40.19
2 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 36.2
3 EHG 13.65
4 CHG_EEF 7.04
5 SHG_WHG 2.78
6 SUB_SAHARAN 0.13


I don't recall the issues with this calculator khana but your family and me and a few others are scoring somewhat signifncantly higher AI on this calculator than some others who we score rather closely to on most calculators (ancient or modern). Were we part of the sample population for the K13 admixture calc?

Your brother and sister typically score slightly less or similar ASI/ASE/Indian/SI, etc. components to myself and other Jatts/Khatris/Arains but on here, the Jatt/Khatri/Arain samples you listed are scoring 29-32% of AI while I score 36% and your brother/sister/yourself score 38-40%. Meanwhile, your Uzbek/Kho grandmother is scoring 27%, which is only 2-3% less than some of the Jatts/Khatris/Arains (while normally scoring at levels near that of Afghan Pashtuns who are in the 19-22% range on there). The Hundal and Grewal samples you have listed are Sikh Jatts that I share with on 23andme and who score quite uniformly with me on other calcs. The Grewal individual is even from the same ancestral city as my paternal family.

If we examine the CHG_EEF, we see another stark difference between us and the Jatts/Khatris/Punjabis/Multani, etc. They are scoring in the teens while all of us score under 10%.

However, it seems our Iran_N, EHG and SHG_WHG results are more in line with the rest of the NW South Asians.


Yeah, the ASI follows no apparent cline in this calculator that I can discern. I made a PCA for this calculator a while back and it was somewhat lopsided. 4-5 of the components were pulling in the same direction. The issue had something to do with CHG_EEF merging (which Kurd didn't intend, if I remember correctly), that in turn had a cascading effect on other components. But maybe I am misremembering which calculator he has that issue with, it might have been one of the Turkic calculator iterations.

In this calculator my brother, sister and I have pretty high ASI scores ~40%, I think the highest among all the Pakistanis and Punjabis. I know he based it on Kusunda of Nepal, so maybe it is pulling in East Asian? What is even more interesting is that Kush (a Telugu) scores higher Iran N than either you or I, at 41%. (Kush scores higher Iran N than us on a few calculators. Very interesting results, he is reminding me of the Kokani Saldhana from Maharashtra that scores like a Sindhi. Will have to look into their results more.) There may have been some leakage of components in this calculator; but it is more likely it was a calculator effect. I am pretty sure you, my sister and I were all in the original run. Since my brother will be very much like my sister and I, he probably also has a "calculator effect". My grandmother was also in the run, her brother wasn't. I am not sure if Jam and Sadia were in the run. Usually Kurd doesn't add them. I think after this calculator he stopped adding my sister in the runs.

I'm trying to think of another calculator we could use to look at CHG.

Found the PCA. Not as lopsided as I remember:

https://i.gyazo.com/9c2df6fa3970ea6366bb2a002fe7854c.jpg

https://i.gyazo.com/0204fcadc8244f10f8f2b184277f4e35.gif

khanabadoshi
09-12-2017, 01:08 AM
https://i.gyazo.com/f6b3441521b43bf0beb928f489cc29bd.png

You can see here that Ancestral Indian, Karitiana, SE Asian, Polar, Siberian and Papuan are all pulling in the same direction. In that sense I find the distribution "lopsided".

kush
09-12-2017, 07:29 AM
I don't find the Near East Neolithic K13 to be very accurate. If I remember correctly, Kurd had some issues when making this calculator. I could be wrong though.

Here are some results:





NEAR EAST NEOLITHIC K13
SE_ASIAN
ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC
CHG_EEF
POLAR
EHG
SUB_SAHARAN
IRAN_NEOLITHIC
KARITIANA
ANCESTRAL_INDIAN
NATUFIAN
SIBERIAN
PAPUAN
SHG_WHG


khanabadoshi
0.00%
0.44%
5.51%
0.00%
12.42%
0.07%
38.45%
1.51%
39.53%
1.67%
0.40%
0.00%
0.00%


khana FTDNA
0.00%
1.89%
4.68%
0.00%
11.84%
0.00%
37.83%
1.71%
39.59%
1.73%
0.72%
0.00%
0.01%


khana LivingDNA
0.00%
0.34%
4.43%
0.00%
13.40%
0.00%
36.72%
2.12%
39.66%
1.10%
2.23%
0.00%
0.00%


Brother
0.00%
0.48%
9.44%
0.79%
14.00%
0.00%
34.94%
0.00%
38.03%
1.74%
0.00%
0.00%
0.57%


Sister
0.00%
0.02%
7.52%
0.00%
14.56%
0.00%
36.62%
1.38%
39.88%
0.01%
0.00%
0.00%
0.01%


mGM - balq [Kho/Uzbek]
0.78%
0.51%
16.24%
1.07%
16.59%
0.00%
29.57%
2.30%
27.08%
0.67%
4.26%
0.15%
0.78%


mGM - Brother
6.49%
2.01%
15.93%
2.00%
13.31%
0.36%
27.79%
2.05%
19.62%
1.69%
8.16%
0.78%
1.78%


pUncle - jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0.00%
0.65%
7.25%
0.00%
11.52%
0.81%
41.50%
0.38%
37.46%
0.33%
0.00%
0.09%
0.01%


mAunt - Balq Daughter
1.40%
0.04%
10.96%
0.00%
13.44%
0.80%
33.93%
2.01%
33.35%
1.38%
1.23%
1.39%
0.07%


mGFSister - sadia
0.00%
0.72%
2.59%
0.00%
9.62%
0.37%
40.26%
0.00%
38.35%
4.39%
0.00%
2.00%
1.69%


Cousin - [Leghari]
0.42%
0.12%
11.18%
0.90%
7.35%
1.99%
40.39%
1.45%
31.55%
2.91%
0.00%
0.02%
1.72%


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
2.09%
0.00%
10.22%
1.98%
11.44%
0.00%
35.91%
0.30%
30.98%
5.04%
0.03%
0.00%
2.01%


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0.30%
2.04%
10.58%
0.72%
10.18%
0.88%
34.88%
0.25%
35.25%
2.25%
1.12%
0.67%
0.88%


Hoshiarpur - Rajput [Ghorewaha/Naru]
0.36%
0.00%
5.09%
0.00%
10.72%
0.83%
38.72%
1.46%
37.76%
1.07%
0.00%
2.11%
1.88%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 1
0.75%
0.00%
5.33%
1.14%
6.77%
0.69%
34.07%
0.63%
44.41%
1.41%
0.00%
1.60%
3.19%


Ludhiana - Saraswat/Chamar 2
1.63%
0.00%
5.03%
0.00%
8.10%
0.00%
35.74%
0.00%
44.35%
1.50%
0.00%
2.21%
1.43%


IN - BRAHMIN - [Shuklha]
3.08%
0.00%
7.31%
0.23%
8.67%
0.87%
33.45%
0.00%
41.45%
0.00%
0.63%
2.44%
1.86%


IN - BRAHMIN; GAUR - [Vashisth]
0.00%
2.50%
14.16%
1.61%
13.08%
1.86%
29.82%
0.41%
29.90%
1.65%
0.87%
0.00%
4.11%


IN - BRAHMIN; KUNLIN - [Banerji]
0.52%
2.64%
7.99%
1.35%
8.65%
0.00%
35.24%
0.42%
37.77%
0.00%
1.09%
2.02%
2.32%


IN - BRAHMIN; MOHYAL - [Mohan]
1.78%
0.00%
5.72%
0.25%
7.84%
1.16%
37.42%
1.46%
40.10%
0.00%
1.06%
2.26%
0.96%


IN - BRAHMIN; NAGAR - [Nanavati]
0.37%
0.00%
8.47%
0.00%
13.40%
0.57%
35.10%
0.00%
33.88%
1.13%
0.00%
2.72%
4.35%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kamboh]
1.84%
1.59%
10.55%
0.00%
10.03%
0.00%
36.66%
0.45%
35.85%
0.00%
1.26%
0.17%
1.61%


IN; PUNJAB - [Kaur]
0.07%
1.41%
9.01%
0.00%
10.94%
2.61%
38.16%
0.29%
33.41%
0.55%
0.00%
1.60%
1.96%


IN; PUNJAB - Arora [Gulati]
0.00%
0.00%
12.21%
1.01%
11.67%
0.00%
36.81%
2.18%
30.50%
2.44%
0.00%
1.13%
2.04%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Cheema] 1
0.00%
0.24%
12.84%
1.76%
12.42%
0.52%
37.02%
0.98%
29.78%
1.48%
0.00%
1.08%
1.89%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Dhaliwal]
0.53%
0.97%
12.18%
1.98%
12.75%
0.00%
33.91%
1.12%
28.73%
2.53%
0.00%
1.81%
3.49%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Gill]
0.38%
2.05%
11.37%
1.16%
14.35%
1.05%
34.90%
0.69%
29.76%
0.94%
0.46%
0.18%
2.69%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Grewal]
0.00%
1.04%
11.43%
0.73%
11.43%
0.18%
38.42%
2.48%
30.33%
1.96%
0.00%
1.08%
0.91%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Heer]
0.56%
0.00%
12.83%
1.34%
12.87%
0.00%
34.05%
0.17%
29.40%
2.94%
0.00%
1.61%
4.21%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Hundal]
1.82%
1.10%
10.19%
1.37%
12.15%
0.00%
37.15%
0.00%
28.95%
2.14%
0.00%
1.31%
3.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Jatt [Sandhu]
0.00%
1.16%
14.57%
1.00%
13.05%
0.00%
35.32%
1.22%
29.99%
1.04%
0.00%
0.00%
2.67%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 1
0.00%
0.00%
11.61%
1.81%
10.81%
0.00%
39.60%
0.00%
31.22%
1.39%
0.00%
0.74%
2.81%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 2
0.00%
0.75%
10.74%
1.02%
10.96%
0.14%
37.58%
1.55%
31.55%
2.62%
0.00%
1.34%
1.74%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Kapoor] 3
0.00%
0.00%
11.62%
1.83%
10.80%
0.00%
39.62%
0.00%
31.17%
1.42%
0.00%
0.77%
2.77%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [Malhotra]
0.00%
0.00%
10.84%
1.15%
11.11%
0.00%
36.64%
0.76%
32.68%
2.41%
1.14%
1.51%
1.76%


IN; PUNJAB - Khatri [UNKNOWN]
0.66%
0.32%
11.28%
2.64%
10.79%
0.00%
35.05%
0.51%
31.58%
3.03%
0.77%
1.57%
1.79%


IN; PUNJAB - Ramgarhia [Sohal]
1.28%
0.00%
8.20%
0.16%
10.07%
0.00%
33.86%
0.22%
34.82%
1.98%
3.19%
2.52%
3.68%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 1
0.00%
0.00%
14.27%
0.41%
8.39%
0.00%
41.20%
2.03%
29.07%
2.94%
0.07%
1.10%
0.49%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 2
2.51%
0.00%
12.55%
0.72%
8.92%
0.00%
38.55%
1.07%
27.99%
4.12%
0.00%
1.36%
2.21%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 3
0.00%
1.12%
10.65%
0.00%
6.82%
0.86%
40.74%
1.75%
32.19%
1.10%
2.09%
1.55%
1.11%


PK; PUNJAB - ARAIN 4
0.05%
2.15%
9.25%
0.00%
7.20%
0.00%
41.95%
1.71%
32.77%
2.02%
1.02%
1.87%
0.00%


IN; RJ - Maheshwari [Medatwal]
0.00%
0.00%
2.19%
0.00%
6.33%
0.53%
36.41%
1.28%
49.19%
0.10%
0.00%
2.04%
1.93%


IN; RJ - Marwari Jain [Singhvi]
1.83%
0.00%
1.02%
1.22%
7.06%
0.00%
38.10%
0.00%
46.80%
0.00%
0.00%
2.45%
1.50%


Kush - Telugu [Reddy]
3.98%
0.00%
1.70%
0.00%
1.84%
1.61%
41.18%
0.00%
46.67%
0.00%
0.00%
2.90%
0.11%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi/Maharashtra
1.43%
0.00%
1.87%
0.00%
6.66%
0.84%
37.63%
0.58%
46.20%
1.31%
0.00%
3.49%
0.00%


IN; TELEGANA - Hyderabadi Muslim??
0.00%
0.00%
11.72%
0.00%
12.31%
0.44%
37.65%
0.86%
30.76%
2.07%
0.17%
2.69%
1.33%


AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]
5.51%
0.00%
13.99%
0.53%
11.22%
0.00%
34.33%
2.19%
22.24%
3.83%
2.37%
0.00%
3.79%


AFG - Pashtun [Barak]
1.59%
1.37%
17.78%
0.10%
10.69%
0.27%
35.82%
1.17%
18.96%
5.39%
3.73%
1.01%
2.13%


AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]
3.62%
1.30%
16.22%
0.62%
11.94%
0.00%
34.13%
2.01%
22.64%
4.54%
0.00%
0.00%
2.97%


AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]
1.88%
4.39%
17.94%
0.00%
8.87%
0.13%
35.08%
0.41%
18.77%
8.14%
2.50%
0.00%
1.90%


Mohmand - Pashtun
0.00%
2.72%
18.48%
0.00%
12.47%
0.65%
35.86%
1.86%
23.45%
0.10%
2.49%
0.76%
1.17%


PATHAN_HGDP00213
0.00%
0.24%
17.84%
0.43%
9.85%
0.00%
39.10%
0.00%
26.61%
0.96%
0.00%
0.98%
3.99%


PATHAN_HGDP00214
1.56%
1.71%
18.72%
0.00%
9.26%
0.08%
36.81%
0.46%
18.39%
6.20%
3.08%
0.39%
3.35%


BALOCH_HGDP0052
0.00%
1.86%
7.64%
0.00%
7.14%
0.00%
52.40%
0.79%
24.76%
3.89%
0.00%
0.00%
1.51%


BALOCH_HGDP0054
0.00%
5.61%
8.62%
0.54%
9.86%
0.00%
48.50%
0.00%
20.97%
4.74%
0.00%
0.00%
1.15%


BRAHUI_HGDP00001
0.00%
0.28%
6.18%
0.00%
6.20%
0.39%
50.11%
0.00%
25.90%
6.91%
0.00%
0.00%
4.04%


BRAHUI_HGDP00003
0.00%
9.50%
2.48%
1.78%
4.90%
0.79%
54.69%
0.00%
24.21%
1.21%
0.00%
0.44%
0.00%


KALASH_HGDP00267
0.00%
0.00%
14.44%
1.26%
12.85%
0.00%
41.05%
0.00%
25.04%
0.13%
3.17%
0.08%
1.98%


KALASH_HGDP00274
0.00%
0.00%
15.50%
0.32%
12.02%
0.00%
37.51%
0.72%
27.95%
2.10%
0.00%
0.99%
2.89%





I find this calculator very interesting as well. I'm curious about the iran-neolithic component. I score 41% on it, but there are a few other telugu samples that score around the same range and higher iran_N than me

telugu (kapu caste)
# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 46.18
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 43.19
3 EHG 4.31
4 PAPUAN 2.86
5 SE_ASIAN 1.7
6 SIBERIAN 1.21
7 SUB_SAHARAN 0.55

telugu (reddy)
# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 47.33
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 40.44
3 NATUFIAN 3.54
4 EHG 3.39
5 PAPUAN 2.49
6 KARITIANA 0.95
7 SIBERIAN 0.54
8 POLAR 0.53
9 SHG_WHG 0.5
10 SUB_SAHARAN 0.16
11 CHG_EEF 0.14

telugu (don't know caste)
# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 49.57
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 40.29
3 EHG 3.39
4 PAPUAN 2.68
5 SUB_SAHARAN 1.28
6 SHG_WHG 1.26
7 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 1.11
8 SE_ASIAN 0.41

All these three score higher EHG than me and the reddy sample scores Natufian at 3.5% which is higher than most south asians.

Zayd
09-12-2017, 05:46 PM
This calculator gives me weird population sharing:
1 GujaratiB 12.28
2 Punjabi 12.88
3 Bengali 13.06
4 GujaratiC 13.78
5 GujaratiA 14.63
6 Burusho 15.5
7 GujaratiD 16.71
8 Sindhi 18.53
9 Pathan 22.47
10 Kurd_SE 24.24

pnb123
10-15-2017, 06:48 AM
When you use the term Bahun, are you using it for Brahman in general, or a specific category of Brahmans?
Thanks.

I think he is referring just to Khas/Pahari Brahmins.

pnb123
10-15-2017, 06:53 AM
Another Nepali Brahmin here.
K9-ASI.
# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 45.28
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 14.25
3 SE_Asian 11.24
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 10.69
5 WHG 7.14
6 SW_Asian 4.32
7 Siberian_E_Asian 3.42
8 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.71

bmoney
10-15-2017, 07:53 AM
Yeah parasar I have observed that I have almost no euro type ancestry in most calculators. In harappa, I score 0 NE euro, but I do get 4.32% caucasian. That is why i get minimal EHG and neolithic farmers but no WHG or high EHG, because thats associated with steppe or scythian type ancestry. I'm a non-brahmin south indian so thats why. We didn't get the so called aryan mixture like most north indians and brahmins did throughout the country.

Another thing I noticed is the CHG, baloch, gedrosian components have no cline whatsoever as you stated. South indians get as much CHG as most northwest indians, if not slightly more. I'm honestly confused about Baloch on harappa as well where I get 37.19, as well as the CHG here. I'm speculating a good portion of CHG and baloch has ASI/south indian mixture in it. I could be wrong though, but that seems like the most probably case.

I find this calculator very interesting as well. I'm curious about the iran-neolithic component. I score 41% on it, but there are a few other telugu samples that score around the same range and higher iran_N than me

Iran_neolithic/CHG component is IVC/basal Dravidian, and as expected would be higher in non-Brahmin Dravidian upper castes like the Reddys, Bunts, Kallars, Coorgis etc who brought the Dravidian languages.

EHG + WHG is an Indo-Aryan Brahmin marker, though all Indo-Aryans have more EHG than WHG, which leads me to believe EHG is basal Indo-Aryan and WHG was autosomal ancestry picked up when mingling with R1b in the Steppe

I am a Dravidian high-caste. I score similar Iran_neolithic

# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 41.78
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 41.08
3 EHG 9.62
4 SUB_SAHARAN 2.5
5 SHG_WHG 2.06
6 SE_ASIAN 1.52
7 PAPUAN 1.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GujaratiB 6.82
2 Punjabi 8.21
3 Sindhi 8.8
4 GujaratiA 9.16
5 GujaratiC 11.64
6 Burusho 13.6
7 GujaratiD 14.27
8 Kurd_SE 15.4
9 Pathan 16.4
10 Bengali 18.78

K9 ASI

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 55.32
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 16.69
3 SE_Asian 9.62
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.62
5 SW_Asian 5.27
6 Siberian_E_Asian 1.95
7 WHG 1.93
8 W_African 1.6

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi 6.73
2 Burusho 8.97
3 Pathan 10.02
4 Kurd_SE 14.7
5 Balochi 14.77
6 Brahui 14.79
7 Kalash 14.79
8 Pashtun_Afghan 15.73
9 Makrani 16.89
10 Bengali 17.05

pegasus
10-15-2017, 08:27 AM
Iran_neolithic component is IVC/basal Dravidian, and as expected would be higher in non-Brahmin Dravidian upper castes like the Reddys, Bunts, Kallars, Coorgis etc who brought the Dravidian languages.

EHG + WHG is an Indo-Aryan Brahmin marker, though all Indo-Aryans have more EHG than WHG, which leads me to believe EHG is basal Indo-Aryan and WHG was autosomal ancestry picked up when mingling with R1b in the Steppe

I am a Dravidian high-caste. I score similar Iran_neolithic

# Population Percent
1 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 41.78
2 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 41.08
3 EHG 9.62
4 SUB_SAHARAN 2.5
5 SHG_WHG 2.06
6 SE_ASIAN 1.52
7 PAPUAN 1.45

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 GujaratiB 6.82
2 Punjabi 8.21
3 Sindhi 8.8
4 GujaratiA 9.16
5 GujaratiC 11.64
6 Burusho 13.6
7 GujaratiD 14.27
8 Kurd_SE 15.4
9 Pathan 16.4
10 Bengali 18.78

K9 ASI

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 55.32
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 16.69
3 SE_Asian 9.62
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 7.62
5 SW_Asian 5.27
6 Siberian_E_Asian 1.95
7 WHG 1.93
8 W_African 1.6

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi 6.73
2 Burusho 8.97
3 Pathan 10.02
4 Kurd_SE 14.7
5 Balochi 14.77
6 Brahui 14.79
7 Kalash 14.79
8 Pashtun_Afghan 15.73
9 Makrani 16.89
10 Bengali 17.05


Can I see your results in harappa dna, your results look northern shifted for a South Indian

bmoney
10-15-2017, 08:42 AM
Can I see your results in harappa dna, your results look northern shifted for a South Indian

My caste, Nairs, are non-Aryan Dravidians like our sister caste Bunts (Aishwarya Rai). So my results can only mean that the IVC was ANI or predominantly ANI, and that some South Indian castes have preserved ANI more than others, who have mixed more with Oceanian ASI typical in south India.

I do not think HarappaDNA is the most accurate admixture calc as there is too much noise and minor components. Also I think the S-Indian here is partly CHG as I score high CHG in K9 ASI

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.97
2 Baloch 36.47
3 Caucasian 5.83
4 NE-Euro 5.65
5 NE-Asian 1.55
6 Mediterranean 1.49
7 Papuan 1.02
8 E-African 0.7
9 SE-Asian 0.65
10 San 0.58
11 SW-Asian 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 maharashtrian (harappa) 2.13
2 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 2.48
3 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 2.5
4 meghawal (reich) 2.68
5 tn-brahmin (xing) 2.7

bmoney
10-15-2017, 09:07 AM
But why is my WHG and SE Asian so high?

Are you from the Chitwan district? from Wiki regarding y-dna r1a1a: Hindus of Chitwan District in the Terai region Nepal show it at 69% which is some of the highest levels recorded among castes in South Asia.

My guess is that you have a relatively high level of descent from the Indo-Aryans/Steppe given that your EHG+WHG is at nearly 20%

SE Asian is probably high from the level of Sino-Tibetan admixture generally seen in Nepalis, but you wouldn't be anywhere near what Newaris from the Kathmandu Valley would show it at.

I used to work with a Nepali Hindu with light brown hair and freckled fair skin. Looked very much like a Pamiri/Tajik, and he probably would score similar to you.

Punjabis in contrast look more Iranian than European as they have more IVC ancestry

pnb123
10-15-2017, 09:33 AM
Are you from the Chitwan district? from Wiki regarding y-dna r1a1a: Hindus of Chitwan District in the Terai region Nepal show it at 69% which is some of the highest levels recorded among castes in South Asia.

My guess is that you have a relatively high level of descent from the Indo-Aryans/Steppe given that your EHG+WHG is at nearly 20%

SE Asian is probably high from the level of Sino-Tibetan admixture generally seen in Nepalis, but you wouldn't be anywhere near what Newaris from the Kathmandu Valley would show it at.

I used to work with a Nepali Hindu with light brown hair and freckled fair skin. Looked very much like a Pamiri/Tajik, and he probably would score similar to you.

Punjabis in contrast look more Iranian than European as they have more IVC ancestry

Just to give you more information on Nepali Hindus. There are two types: Paharis and Madhesis. The op & myself are Pahari Brahmins. It’s been said that we migrated to Nepal from Northwest direction (maybe via Uttarakhand). Madhesis are similar to Eastern UP and Bihari people. These two groups will supposedly have different admixtures imo. Today, Paharis do live in the Terai area, but I am not sure if the samples are taken from Pahari people. Someone said that the samples belonged to Madhesis only, but some said that it belonged to both Paharis and Madhesis. So, it’s very unclear. But what I can tell you that from my observation of 100 Nepali relatives in my 23andme account, majority of Pahari Nepali Brahmins are R1a1a, which is followed by R2 and J2a.
About WHG, I think it did came from Steppe and I think we preserved it better because we got isolated from others and mixed within ourselves. Same goes for other groups like Haryana Jatts.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 10:18 AM
My caste, Nairs, are non-Aryan Dravidians like our sister caste Bunts (Aishwarya Rai). So my results can only mean that the IVC was ANI or predominantly ANI, and that some South Indian castes have preserved ANI more than others, who have mixed more with Oceanian ASI typical in south India.

I do not think HarappaDNA is the most accurate admixture calc as there is too much noise and minor components. Also I think the S-Indian here is partly CHG as I score high CHG in K9 ASI

# Population Percent
1 S-Indian 45.97
2 Baloch 36.47
3 Caucasian 5.83
4 NE-Euro 5.65
5 NE-Asian 1.55
6 Mediterranean 1.49
7 Papuan 1.02
8 E-African 0.7
9 SE-Asian 0.65
10 San 0.58
11 SW-Asian 0.1

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 maharashtrian (harappa) 2.13
2 karnataka-brahmin (harappa) 2.48
3 brahmin-tamil-nadu (metspalu) 2.5
4 meghawal (reich) 2.68
5 tn-brahmin (xing) 2.7

NO CHG is not in ASI , South Indian is a mix between ASI and Iran_N, or based of more recent tree mix analysis someone sent me Iran_Hotu. CHG in South Asia mostly comes through Indo Aryan related populations coming from SC Asia in the Bronze age . Also looking at some Pakistani results and some of the upper caste Punjabi results, I also suspect a bit of mixed Iran Chl / Iran_N hybrid type pulse came through as well.
ANI means any West Eurasian related ancestry, if you mean Zagrosian/Iran_N/Hotu related , yes. I suspect upper caste Dravidians migrated from Northern India southwards post the Bronze age , as agriculture spread there relatively late.
Looking at Gujarati Patels , some of the PJL Lahore samples and upper caste South Indians it safe to say for the moment IVC people east of the Indus were largely 50/50 55/45 mixes of ASI and Iran_N/Hotu peoples and I think it makes sense since you find the same kind of populations separated by thousands of kilometers. Though I feel steppe ancestry in most SAs is inflated a bit because of their archaic ANE affinity.

bmoney
10-15-2017, 10:52 AM
NO CHG is not in ASI , South Indian is a mix between ASI and Iran_N, or based of more recent tree mix analysis someone sent me Iran_Hotu.

Let me explain, maybe we're on the same page: ydna-L1a1 associated autosomal ancestry, now only found among modern south Indians, has been classed as S-Indian due to reference populations in HarappaDNA. L1c associated autosomal ancestry, which is found commonly among Balochis and Punjabis, is a sister haplogroup and would probably be classed as Baloch in Harappa even though both ancestral populations are equally distant from Oceanian/ASI haplogroup H.

L1a was the only branch of L that went to south India, possible defining the South-Dravidian language branch, and only persisted there/uncommon now in the North. This does not mean it has anything to do with Pulayar ASI. This is why I believe K9 ASI is much more accurate to find actual ancient admixture components.

This is the same thing as 23andme classifying a Pakistani Punjabi as 97% South Asian due to reference populations, because R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93) and R2 is now mainly only found in South Asia and did not persist elsewhere apart from small pockets


CHG in South Asia mostly comes through Indo Aryan related populations coming from SC Asia in the Bronze age . Also looking at some Pakistani results and some of the upper caste Punjabi results, I also suspect a bit of mixed Iran Chl / Iran_N hybrid type pulse came through as well.

If this was true, it would peak in Brahmins who have the highest proportion of R1a1 and were the harbingers of Indo-Aryan culture. Instead it peaks in peoples who currently inhabit, or are near to the Indus River in Pakistan such as the Balochis and Brahuis, so I disagree. CHG is correlated with Indo-Aryan populations only in the north-west. EHG is a much more accurate proxy for Indo-Aryans looking at admixture results for all Indo-Aryan populations. CHG is also high in non-Brahmin Dravidian upper castes


IVC people east of the Indus were largely 50/50 55/45 mixes of ASI and Iran_N/Hotu peoples

We'll find out what the actual % was from Rakhigarhi DNA. But I doubt the ASI(Oceanian) proportion was that high in the Indus Valley as it is quite low in modern day populations who inhabit the area. Could you walk me through how you came up with these proportions?


feel steppe ancestry in most SAs is inflated a bit because of their archaic ANE affinity.

Could you elaborate?

pegasus
10-15-2017, 11:14 AM
Firstly attaching uniparental markers to complex genomes is not a good idea. L1a is also found in Chalcolithic Armenians , who were very genetically different from South Indians. It probably has more to do with what basal population was living in upper paleolithic Iran or adjacent areas.

Indo Aryans were not monoliths, they came in waves after settling in SC Asia, to what degree they mixed with local peoples who already had CHG ( BMAC/Helmand/ northern IVC) varies .
Balochis and Brahuis have CHG ancestry via Iran_Chl, which is the main component of it. Yes EHG is more accurate for looking for Steppe admix, CHG is already Zagrosian related like Iran_N.

Well its quite simple if you have communities showing similar mixtures and lacking or low steppe admix separated by thousands of kilometers, but West of the Indus, those kind of native populations are non existent completely. Also as for the mixes its my educated guess as you still have some Chamar populations in Northern India who come out as Iran_N shifted versions of Paniyas .

bmoney
10-15-2017, 11:25 AM
Firstly attaching uniparental markers to complex genomes is not a good idea. L1a is also found in Chalcolithic Armenians , who very genetically different from South Indians. It probably has more to do with what basal population was living in upper paleolithic Iran or adjacent areas.

Indo Aryans were not monoliths, they came in waves after settling in SC Asia, to what degree they mixed with local peoples who already had CHG ( BMAC/Helmand/ northern IVC) varies .
Balochis and Brahuis have CHG ancestry via Iran_Chl, which is the main component of it. Yes EHG is more accurate for looking for Steppe admix, CHG is already Zagrosian related like Iran_N.

Well its quite simple if you have communities showing similar mixtures and lacking or low steppe admix separated by thousands of kilometers, but West of the Indus, those kind of native populations are non existent completely.

I'm not arguing with any of that, I stated something similar in another thread. Nor am I saying the Indo-Aryans were a monolith.

All I'm saying is that CHG peaks in Gedrosia whereas Steppe ancestry does not, which disputes your statement that CHG in South Asia mostly comes through Indo Aryan related populations.

CHG existed in South Asia before steppe ancestry did, even if the steppe component brought in more CHG via the BMAC. This is why a non-steppe Dravidian like me scores 55.3% CHG in K9 ASI

The steppe admixture event was post the initial ANI-ASI mix.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 11:41 AM
I'm not arguing with any of that, I stated something similar in another thread. Nor am I saying the Indo-Aryans were a monolith.

All I'm saying is that CHG peaks in Gedrosia whereas Steppe ancestry does not, which disputes your statement that CHG in South Asia mostly comes through Indo Aryan related populations.

CHG existed in South Asia before steppe ancestry did, even if the steppe component brought in more CHG via the BMAC. This is why a non-steppe Dravidian like me scores 55.3% CHG in K9 ASI

The steppe admixture event was post the initial ANI-ASI mix.

I am just clarifying. CHG and Iran_N are similar but different because it has a Villabruna affinity which Iran_N lacks. Yeah your CHG score would probably translate into about 50% Iran_N, but keep in mind again South Indians have excess MA1 affinities which gets lumped in CHG in K9 or Iran_N because of lack of any genomes. I will give you a case and point Paniya can be modeled as 40% Iran_N which is not true at all but again lack of genomes is causing it, so there are some yet to be discovered ancient paleolithic and neolithic genomes from SC and Central Asia which will shed better light on it

bmoney
10-15-2017, 11:56 AM
I am just clarifying. CHG and Iran_N are similar but different because it has a Villabruna affinity which Iran_N lacks. Yeah your CHG score would probably translate into about 50% Iran_N, but keep in mind again South Indians have excess MA1 affinities which gets lumped in CHG or Iran_N because of lack of any genomes. I will give you a case and point Paniya can be modeled as 40% Iran_N which is not true at all but again lack of genomes is causing it, so there are some yet to be discovered ancient paleolithic and neolithic genomes from SC and Central Asia which will shed better light on it

I agree with your last point, though MA-1 is basal R - the ancestor of Indo-Europeans. How would south Indians fit into that? do you mean Ust'Ishim man?

According to K9 ASI - MA-1 is 19.54% South Indian, and 0 CHG so it seems to be accounted for. Ust'Ishim comes out 24.51% South Indian and 16.16% CHG

According to K9 ASI reference data Paniya comes out 39.19 South Indian + 21.82 SE Asian vs my 16.69 South Indian and SE_Asia 9.62.

So it looks like the South Indian component seems to be working fine...

anthroin
10-15-2017, 05:02 PM
ANI means any West Eurasian related ancestry, if you mean Zagrosian/Iran_N/Hotu related , yes. I suspect upper caste Dravidians migrated from Northern India southwards post the Bronze age , as agriculture spread there relatively late.
Looking at Gujarati Patels , some of the PJL Lahore samples and upper caste South Indians it safe to say for the moment IVC people east of the Indus were largely 50/50 55/45 mixes of ASI and Iran_N/Hotu peoples and I think it makes sense since you find the same kind of populations separated by thousands of kilometers. Though I feel steppe ancestry in most SAs is inflated a bit because of their archaic ANE affinity.

Please don't mind me asking but post the Bronze age means after 2000 BC or 2500 BC or 3000 BC (this one is chalcolithic I suppose) or when exactly? Also, just to supplement this all up with just a little bit of archaeological detail, the Southern Neolithic traditions actually begin at around 3000 BC predominantly based on cattle herding and hunting and very probable collecting of wild millets and pulses (which go on to become dominant foods in diet later on- horsegram, mung bean, bristly foxtail millet, browntop millet). By 2200 BC, sedentism begins to appear on the characteristic granitic hill tops of the southern Deccan (with villages generally founded near the well-known ashmound sites) and by 2000 BC, the core Southern Neolithic of the Raichur-Shorapur Doab and surrounds had already spread into the Upper Tungabhadra founding that famous site of Hallur and even into some northern parts of Tamil Nadu like Paiyampalli. From 2000 BC that evidence for widespread cultivation of native crop quartet and African crops and also north Deccan chalcolithic crops of wheat and barley begin to appear (the last ones of minor importance only compared to horsegram and mungbeans).

The megalithic transition (1400 BC -800 BC) after the Neolithic phase 3 and the subsequent Iron Age (800 BC - 300 BC) are probably more well known without my needing to mention them here.

The archaeobotanical (along with linguistic) evidence is inclined towards putting Dravidian languages on the southern Deccan scene at least by 2500 BC if not the beginnings of ceramic neolithics in the region at 3000 BC. From when, presumably no major peoples arrived there except for the Buddhists, Jains and minor numbers of Brahmins beginning Early Historic Period. Also, in my view, the demic-diffusion-associated ANI link of the Dravidian speakers is best associated with the cattle found in the southern Deccan from its earliest neolithic stages- the zebu likely first domesticated in the pre-Harappan Indus Valley Neolithic. (I also remember going through the results and conclusions of a genetic study based on modern zebus that the highest diversity of them in descending order being present in Indus region, Gangetic plains region, southern India and then rest of the parts of the world.). Archaeologically, this movement of Dravidian speakers may or may not relate to the observation of some seasonal pastoralist camps found in some Gujarati pre-Harappan (and also non-Indus-tradition) sites like Loteshwar, etc. beginning 3500 BC.

How does a 3000 BC figure fit with genetics as the entry point into south India of the (presumably Iran_Hotu/Iran_N-like or that with likely some ASI admixture already) Dravidian speakers from Indo-Iranian border lands or some such place (and quite importantly, most of the lot) with minor pockets perhaps herding cattle away happily in the Indo-Iranian borderlands region (before at least some of them would have been subsumed into the city culture of the IVC and later completely language-shifted to Indo-Aryan or Iranian), all of which are now lost irretrievably (Brahui speakers quite interestingly migrate to roughly the same region it appears, after 1000 AD- pastoralists! they are such a difficult lot, aren't they? Especially those speaking languages belonging to families of mysterious origins, unlike the Indo-European ones). Also, the nature of Dravidian linguistic substratum seen in languages of Maharashtra and to a significantly lower extent in Gujarat or Sindh appears to reflect a northward migration of the already differentiated South Dravidian speakers from the Neolithic phase 3 or megalithic transition not any relic Proto-Dravidian era people there. This idea also thinks that the likely route of Proto-Dravidian or at most non-North-Dravidian speakers (again, this is not advocating any relic status for Brahui: the North Dravidian speakers (who include the linguistic ancestors of Brahui) would have lived in one of the chalcolithic cultures of northern India (in their post 3000 BC phases), if they did not migrate northward from the very early stages of the Southern Neolithic itself, which is also quite plausible.) into the southern Deccan would have been the savanna grasslands stretching from Thar desert margins and inland Gujarat through Maharashtra into the southern Deccan, not any coastal migration through Sindh and Saurashtra.

(Also, earlier, I used to wonder about the implications of the post 2200 BC admixture dates in non-Brahmin Dravidian speakers of south India but I'm now tending to think they are showing the evidence for only the most recent admixture. Velamas for example, have a date of 2,465 years or c. 500-400 BC. We can't realistically believe that the Velamas stayed purely as the putative ANI till 500 BC, can we? This date actually has a good potential to reflect some eastern Indian ancestry in the form of incoming Buddhists into Andhra at the time. Do Velamas show any Indo-Aryan admixture? From what I have read, it appears they do not show any significant Indo-Aryan ancestry but the admixture date alluringly fits with the emergence of Buddhist institutions in Andhra. So it may mean that the Buddhist eastern Indians from Bihar who migrated to Andhra at that time were post-Indus-Valley-Civilisation Iran_N+ASI rich non-Brahmin and non-Kshatriyas of that region. Or I was wrong and we don't know. Or there is some significant Indo-Aryan (Buddhist) ancestry in Velamas. Anyway, this interestingly does not apply to Vaishyas seemingly, as there is a possibility that the Telugu Vaishyas were actually Jains till recently-like 1000 AD or so (not sure what number the hypothesis gives exactly), when they converted to Hinduism. Perhaps they were just Jain converts at the time of their ethnogenesis with no admixture with the north Indian migrant Jains.)

Major edit 1: Please pardon my hijacking of this thread with my obsession with the Dravidian problem (I promise that I will not write any new posts in this thread about this stupid stuff) and also including high amounts of premature thoughts, especially in the last paragraph; scanning that "Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India" paper by Priya Moorjani et al. slightly better (but not completely thoroughly) this time opened my eyes to the fact that the researchers had already detected if there were several layers of admixture in all these populations or not by some means, though I do not understand their methods even a single bit. The major takeaway point for me, if I did understand their results properly, is that Telugu Vaishyas do appear to have only one admixture at 144+/- 27 generations. i.e. c. 2200 BC. (The p-values associated with the rejection of single-pulse admixture hypothesis were greater than 0.05 for these groups; so the single-pulse admixture hypothesis is not rejected for them while some groups like Kashmiri Pandit, Mala, Bhil, etc. have clearly multiple pulses of admixture because the single-pulse admixture hypothesis was rejected for them.). (But one thing that I still don't understand and probably never will, until I understand all the contents of that paper thoroughly unlike in the bits-and-pieces manner I do now, is whether the single admixture in the Vaishyas should be understood as an admixture between pure ANI and pure ASI or some combinations of ANI and ASI for both the first mixing population and second mixing population are permitted; I'm inclined to think it's the former) as do Madigas at 120+/- 21 generations or c. 1500 BC and Chamars at 113+/- 13 generations or c. 1300 BC.

pnb123
10-15-2017, 05:03 PM
NO CHG is not in ASI , South Indian is a mix between ASI and Iran_N, or based of more recent tree mix analysis someone sent me Iran_Hotu. CHG in South Asia mostly comes through Indo Aryan related populations coming from SC Asia in the Bronze age . Also looking at some Pakistani results and some of the upper caste Punjabi results, I also suspect a bit of mixed Iran Chl / Iran_N hybrid type pulse came through as well.
ANI means any West Eurasian related ancestry, if you mean Zagrosian/Iran_N/Hotu related , yes. I suspect upper caste Dravidians migrated from Northern India southwards post the Bronze age , as agriculture spread there relatively late.
Looking at Gujarati Patels , some of the PJL Lahore samples and upper caste South Indians it safe to say for the moment IVC people east of the Indus were largely 50/50 55/45 mixes of ASI and Iran_N/Hotu peoples and I think it makes sense since you find the same kind of populations separated by thousands of kilometers. Though I feel steppe ancestry in most SAs is inflated a bit because of their archaic ANE affinity.

So, the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer in this calculator is not that accurate? Also, I think Neolithic Farmers component in ASI K9 has some hidden Caucasus or maybe Mediterranean component. I think the more accurate European like ancestry would be WHG. I am also wondering why I’m scoring above 4% SW Asian ?

parasar
10-15-2017, 06:57 PM
I think he is referring just to Khas/Pahari Brahmins.

I had thought so too, but he clarified:

In general ...

pegasus
10-15-2017, 08:06 PM
So, the Caucasus Hunter Gatherer in this calculator is not that accurate? Also, I think Neolithic Farmers component in ASI K9 has some hidden Caucasus or maybe Mediterranean component. I think the more accurate European like ancestry would be WHG. I am also wondering why I’m scoring above 4% SW Asian ?

I would not say its not accurate , it gives a rough estimate of Zagrosian related ancestry, but yeah main kind of Zagrosian related ancestry in South Asians is Iran_N/Hotu related not CHG. They are closely related but the former has Villabruna like component likely acquired in Anatolia. Yes I have always said the WHG is the best marker for tracing Euro like ancestry but problem is in SA's their steppe ancestry is better modeled with Yamnaya /Catacomb than with Androvono Indo Iranians who have 30-35% Western European dna, which is lacking in Yamnaya. Some have posited the new R1a sample from Western Ukraine but that dude has way too much ANF acquired from mixing with Balkan Farmers.

parasar
10-15-2017, 08:08 PM
Just to give you more information on Nepali Hindus. There are two types: Paharis and Madhesis. The op & myself are Pahari Brahmins. It’s been said that we migrated to Nepal from Northwest direction (maybe via Uttarakhand). Madhesis are similar to Eastern UP and Bihari people. These two groups will supposedly have different admixtures imo. Today, Paharis do live in the Terai area, but I am not sure if the samples are taken from Pahari people. Someone said that the samples belonged to Madhesis only, but some said that it belonged to both Paharis and Madhesis. So, it’s very unclear. But what I can tell you that from my observation of 100 Nepali relatives in my 23andme account, majority of Pahari Nepali Brahmins are R1a1a, which is followed by R2 and J2a.
About WHG, I think it did came from Steppe and I think we preserved it better because we got isolated from others and mixed within ourselves. Same goes for other groups like Haryana Jatts.

For Chitwan:
17 out of the 25 samples were R1a1 (initially reported as 18/26 or 69.2% in the source paper) and of these 17, 16 were L657+ (M780+) and one Z93+Z94+Z95+ M780-, Z2125- per Underhill 2014.

For Tharu:
14 out of 170 samples were R1a1 and all 14 were L657+(M780+).

Despite 30/31 being L657, the STR age was relatively deep:

Nepal Hindu 2857
Nepal Tharu 4167 (I would discount the deep age in the Tharu as it is likely a delta STR distribution)
(for comparison: 30 European Roma R1a1 samples gave an age of 500 years)

http://media.springernature.com/lw785/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2148-9-154/MediaObjects/12862_2008_Article_1068_Fig1_HTML.jpg

parasar
10-15-2017, 08:18 PM
... L1c associated autosomal ancestry, which is found commonly among Balochis and Punjabis, is a sister haplogroup and would probably be classed as Baloch in Harappa even though both ancestral populations are equally distant from Oceanian/ASI haplogroup H.

L1a was the only branch of L that went to south India, possible defining the South-Dravidian language branch, and only persisted there/uncommon now in the North. This does not mean it has anything to do with Pulayar ASI. This is why I believe K9 ASI is much more accurate to find actual ancient admixture components.

...

Are you are referring to L1c - M357, previously L3?
If so, please see:

DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 DYSGATAH4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635 DYS388 DYS426

162 Paliyan L3-M357 14 17 22 15 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 23 12 10
163 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 12 20 12 11
164 Paliyan L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 21 12 11
228 Pulayar L3-M357 12 17 22 14 14 16 16 9 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
376 Thoda L3-M357 13 16 22 14 15 17 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
612 Parayar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 14 20 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 20 12 11
638 Parayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 21 12 11
681 Pallar L3-M357 14 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 18 11 10 14 13 12 22 12 11
682 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 21 -- --
683 Pallar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 -- 12 12 21 -- --
923 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 22 12 11
924 Vanniyar L3-M357 13 16 23 16 16 18 16 10 19 12 10 14 12 13 22 12 12
1155 PiramalaiKallar L3-M357 13 17 22 15 15 19 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 13 22 12 11
1294 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 12 21 12 11
1295 Valayar L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 13 13 21 12 11
1391 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 16 21 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 11 14 13 11 21 12 11
1392 Tamil Jains L3-M357 13 -- 22 14 -- 18 16 10 19 11 11 13 12 21 12 11
1500 Ezhava L3-M357 13 16 23 15 17 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 11 22 12 11
1645 VadamaBrahmin L3-M357 13 16 22 15 15 18 16 10 19 11 10 14 12 12 23 12 11
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchSingleRepresentation.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288.s003

L1c*
HG03790 ITU
L1c-M2398
...HG03821 BEB
......HG03695 STU
..........HG04094 ITU
..........HG03672 STU
..............HG03900 STU
..............HG03753 STU
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/suppl/2013/12/13/000802.DC5/000802-3.pdf

pegasus
10-15-2017, 08:20 PM
Please don't mind me asking but post the Bronze age means after 2000 BC or 2500 BC or 3000 BC (this one is chalcolithic I suppose) or when exactly? Also, just to supplement this all up with just a little bit of archaeological detail, the Southern Neolithic traditions actually begin at around 3000 BC predominantly based on cattle herding and hunting and very probable collecting of wild millets and pulses (which go on to become dominant foods in diet later on- horsegram, mung bean, bristly foxtail millet, browntop millet). By 2200 BC, sedentism begins to appear on the characteristic granitic hill tops of the southern Deccan (with villages generally founded near the well-known ashmound sites) and by 2000 BC, the core Southern Neolithic of the Raichur-Shorapur Doab and surrounds had already spread into the Upper Tungabhadra founding that famous site of Hallur and even into some northern parts of Tamil Nadu like Paiyampalli. From 2000 BC that evidence for widespread cultivation of native crop quartet and African crops and also north Deccan chalcolithic crops of wheat and barley begin to appear (the last ones of minor importance only compared to horsegram and mungbeans).

The megalithic transition (1400 BC -800 BC) after the Neolithic phase 3 and the subsequent Iron Age (800 BC - 300 BC) are probably more well known without my needing to mention them here.

The archaeobotanical (along with linguistic) evidence is inclined towards putting Dravidian languages on the southern Deccan scene at least by 2500 BC if not the beginnings of ceramic neolithics in the region at 3000 BC. From when, presumably no major peoples arrived there except for the Buddhists, Jains and minor numbers of Brahmins beginning Early Historic Period. Also, in my view, the demic-diffusion-associated ANI link of the Dravidian speakers is best associated with the cattle found in the southern Deccan from its earliest neolithic stages- the zebu likely first domesticated in the pre-Harappan Indus Valley Neolithic. (I also remember going through the results and conclusions of a genetic study based on modern zebus that the highest diversity of them in descending order being present in Indus region, Gangetic plains region, southern India and then rest of the parts of the world.). Archaeologically, this movement of Dravidian speakers may or may not relate to the observation of some seasonal pastoralist camps found in some Gujarati pre-Harappan (and also non-Indus-tradition) sites like Loteshwar, etc. beginning 3500 BC.

How does a 3000 BC figure fit with genetics as the entry point into south India of the (presumably Iran_Hotu/Iran_N-like or that with likely some ASI admixture already) Dravidian speakers from Indo-Iranian border lands or some such place (and quite importantly, most of the lot) with minor pockets perhaps herding cattle away happily in the Indo-Iranian borderlands region (before at least some of them would have been subsumed into the city culture of the IVC and later completely language-shifted to Indo-Aryan or Iranian), all of which are now lost irretrievably (Brahui speakers quite interestingly migrate to roughly the same region it appears, after 1000 AD- pastoralists! they are such a difficult lot, aren't they? Especially those speaking languages belonging to families of mysterious origins, unlike the Indo-European ones). Also, the nature of Dravidian linguistic substratum seen in languages of Maharashtra and to a significantly lower extent in Gujarat or Sindh appears to reflect a northward migration of the already differentiated South Dravidian speakers from the Neolithic phase 3 or megalithic transition not any relic Proto-Dravidian era people there. This idea also thinks that the likely route of Proto-Dravidian or at most non-North-Dravidian speakers (again, this is not advocating any relic status for Brahui: the North Dravidian speakers (who include the linguistic ancestors of Brahui) would have lived in one of the chalcolithic cultures of northern India (in their post 3000 BC phases), if they did not migrate northward from the very early stages of the Southern Neolithic itself, which is also quite plausible.) into the southern Deccan would have been the savanna grasslands stretching from Thar desert margins and inland Gujarat through Maharashtra into the southern Deccan, not any coastal migration through Sindh and Saurashtra.

(Also, earlier, I used to wonder about the implications of the post 2200 BC admixture dates in non-Brahmin Dravidian speakers of south India but I'm now tending to think they are showing the evidence for only the most recent admixture. Velamas for example, have a date of 2,465 years or c. 500-400 BC. We can't realistically believe that the Velamas stayed purely as the putative ANI till 500 BC, can we? This date actually has a good potential to reflect some eastern Indian ancestry in the form of incoming Buddhists into Andhra at the time. Do Velamas show any Indo-Aryan admixture? From what I have read, it appears they do not show any significant Indo-Aryan ancestry but the admixture date alluringly fits with the emergence of Buddhist institutions in Andhra. So it may mean that the Buddhist eastern Indians from Bihar who migrated to Andhra at that time were post-Indus-Valley-Civilisation Iran_N+ASI rich non-Brahmin and non-Kshatriyas of that region. Or I was wrong and we don't know. Or there is some significant Indo-Aryan (Buddhist) ancestry in Velamas. Anyway, this interestingly does not apply to Vaishyas seemingly, as there is a possibility that the Telugu Vaishyas were actually Jains till recently-like 1000 AD or so (not sure what number the hypothesis gives exactly), when they converted to Hinduism. Perhaps they were just Jain converts at the time of their ethnogenesis with no admixture with the north Indian migrant Jains.)

Firstly that 4200 year old mixing date is BS. The recent East African samples are proof of it. It was postulated admixing between SSA and West Asian elements in Horners occurred in the last 3000 years, which did not make sense, as its well after the Middle Kingdom in Egypt. In any case the Luxmunda sample was dated to even before that and she was found in Tanzania, an area you don't associate with Horner populations. So the point is these populations mixed up in the late Neolithic/ Chalcolithic period, long before the 1000 BC date given, I suspect the same for SAs , given you already have millions of urban people living in a vast area.

Malas have been modeled as 20% Steppe but lol that is clearly wrong and it just goes to show the wonky results and crappy fits you get when you don' t have any related genomes from across space and time.

anthroin
10-15-2017, 09:10 PM
Firstly that 4200 year old mixing date is BS. The recent East African samples are proof of it. It was postulated admixing between SSA and West Asian elements in Horners occurred in the last 3000 years, which did not make sense, as its well after the Middle Kingdom in Egypt. In any case the Luxmunda sample was dated to even before that and she was found in Tanzania, an area you don't associate with Horner populations. So the point is these populations mixed up in the late Neolithic/ Chalcolithic period, long before the 1000 BC date given, I suspect the same for SAs , given you already have millions of urban people living in a vast area.

Malas have been modeled as 20% Steppe but lol that is clearly wrong and it just goes to show the wonky results and crappy fits you get when you don' t have any related genomes from across space and time.

But as I wrote in the edited version of my post in this thread,


Major edit 1: Please pardon my hijacking of this thread with my obsession with the Dravidian problem (I promise that I will not write any new posts in this thread about this stupid stuff) and also including high amounts of premature thoughts, especially in the last paragraph; scanning that "Genetic Evidence for Recent Population Mixture in India" paper by Priya Moorjani et al. slightly better (but not completely thoroughly) this time opened my eyes to the fact that the researchers had already detected if there were several layers of admixture in all these populations or not by some means, though I do not understand their methods even a single bit. The major takeaway point for me, if I did understand their results properly, is that Telugu Vaishyas do appear to have only one admixture at 144+/- 27 generations. i.e. c. 2200 BC. (The p-values associated with the rejection of single-pulse admixture hypothesis were greater than 0.05 for these groups; so the single-pulse admixture hypothesis is not rejected for them while some groups like Kashmiri Pandit, Mala, Bhil, etc. have clearly multiple pulses of admixture because the single-pulse admixture hypothesis was rejected for them.). (But one thing that I still don't understand and probably never will, until I understand all the contents of that paper thoroughly unlike in the bits-and-pieces manner I do now, is whether the single admixture in the Vaishyas should be understood as an admixture between pure ANI and pure ASI or some combinations of ANI and ASI for both the first mixing population and second mixing population are permitted; I'm inclined to think it's the former) as do Madigas at 120+/- 21 generations or c. 1500 BC and Chamars at 113+/- 13 generations or c. 1300 BC.

It appears that some statistical methods of the researchers, which I did not understand, showed them that there is a likelihood of single pulse of admixture for some groups like Vaishyas and Madigas, because the above hypothesis was not rejected (that's about the maximum amount of statistics I know right now, so please pardon me for that also, as usual). Maybe that's because of the nature of the ANI and ASI they have taken up study, as you are saying perhaps too, if I am understanding you properly.

But overall I agree with you; it is quite incredible to me personally that Chamars have a single admixture between a pure ANI and a pure ASI at that late date of 1300 BC. If indeed there was a mixture in Chamars at that late date and if it was indeed the first and the last admixture, it is likely to have been between two groups which are themselves each ANI and ASI mixed, quite intuitively speaking; pure ANI component at that late stage appears not possible to have existed at all. (Wow, this sentence right above makes appears to make absolutely no sense, does it? if I was extremely stupid in even entertaining the possibility that a pop.1 of ANI+ASI and a pop.2 of ANI+ASI could give rise to Chamars with Moorjani et al. detecting a single pulse of admixture between ANI and ASI 3200 years later, please pardon (no, indeed bless) my stupidity.)

bmoney
10-15-2017, 09:34 PM
Are you are referring to L1c - M357, previously L3?


Its uncommon in the south compared to L1a, so my point was that it would probably have its reference population in Gedrosia

bmoney
10-15-2017, 09:44 PM
Malas have been modeled as 20% Steppe but lol that is clearly wrong and it just goes to show the wonky results and crappy fits you get when you don' t have any related genomes from across space and time.

Fake strawman, Malas are modelled 73% South Indian and 21% Baloch+1% Caucasian (noise) in HarappaDNA, with 0% Steppe NE Euro.

The calc fits fine to me, supports papers saying ANI/ASI mix happened all over India. ANI would be the Baloch component here

You seem to be generalising a lot, esp when it comes to south Indians. Do you understand that there is quite a bit of endogamy and variance between Indian communities even within the same state?

pegasus
10-15-2017, 10:06 PM
Fake strawman, Malas are modelled 73% South Indian and 21% Baloch+1% Caucasian (noise) in HarappaDNA, with 0% Steppe NE Euro.

The calc fits fine to me, supports papers saying ANI/ASI mix happened all over India. ANI would be the Baloch component here

You seem to be generalising a lot, esp when it comes to south Indians. Do you understand that there is quite a bit of endogamy and variance between Indian communities even within the same state?

That was published in the Lazardis paper year back and there is a big difference between admixture Harappa and Treemix, it implies ancestry. I don't think your in a position to put words in my mouth. Honestly upper caste/ urban South Indians are not as interesting from a genomic perspective compared to South Indian tribal populations, as most of them are mainly late bronze age / early Iron age immigrants from the Northern Gangetic plains based of the Ashmound culture, there is an almost 6 Kya gap between the farming cultures . With respect to Brahmins they seem to be even more arrivals , coming in waves from antiquity onwards. Looking at your results its safe to say "Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off.

bmoney
10-15-2017, 10:13 PM
That was published in the Lazardis paper year back and there is a big difference between admixture Harappa and Treemix, it implies ancestry. I don't think your in a position to put words in my mouth. Honestly upper caste/ urban South Indians are not as interesting from a genomic perspective compared to South Indian tribal populations, as most of them are mainly late bronze age / early Iron age immigrants from the Northern Gangetic plains based of the Ashmound culture, there is an almost 6 Kya gap between the farming cultures . With respect to Brahmins they seem to be even more arrivals , coming in waves from antiquity onwards. Looking at your results its safe to say "Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off.

To a Eurocentric maybe its not interesting. To a South Asian, it is interesting, because it goes beyond the lazy research which modelled Indians as conquering Brahmin white people and tribal natives, that has been debunked and nuanced via Moorjani etc

For me this means IVC was ANI/Iran_N or mostly ANI/Iran_N and that these people still form one of the biggest autosomal components in south Asian ethnic groups. It also means, all said and done Brahmin/Steppe ancestry (EHG+WHG) is the 3rd or 4th biggest ancestral component for most Indians, even northern Indo-Aryans

But please show me which ancestry calc modelled Malas as 20% steppe.

Also if you knew Kerala history, Nairs were never Brahmins, believing in Dravidian customs such as Nag worship (also seen throughout India but not traceable to the Indo-European religion). This also does not explain Kush and the Telugu samples high CHG


most of them are mainly late bronze age / early Iron age immigrants from the Northern Gangetic plains based of the Ashmound culture, there is an almost 6 Kya gap between the farming cultures

What language was spoken in the Northern Gangetic plans at that time?

parasar
10-15-2017, 10:38 PM
Its uncommon in the south compared to L1a, so my point was that it would probably have its reference population in Gedrosia

The south has so many Y types that not everything can be common.
But to your point, that L1a is more common, yes true, but L1c appears more diverse in the south especially compared to the north (Jats, Pakhtoons, etc,) even if we include the Chechens.
Plus much of the K in the south remains unresolved.

anthroin
10-15-2017, 10:41 PM
That was published in the Lazardis paper year back and there is a big difference between admixture Harappa and Treemix, it implies ancestry. I don't think your in a position to put words in my mouth. Honestly upper caste/ urban South Indians are not as interesting from a genomic perspective compared to South Indian tribal populations, as most of them are mainly late bronze age / early Iron age immigrants from the Northern Gangetic plains based of the Ashmound culture, there is an almost 6 Kya gap between the farming cultures . With respect to Brahmins they seem to be even more arrivals , coming in waves from antiquity onwards. Looking at your results its safe to say "Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off.

Oh no... I'm triggered again. I will really try and make it the last post of mine related to this. The thing is, I'm very confused by your usage of late bronze age/ early iron age and the Ashmound Tradition as if they are contemporary. They are not contemporary and they are not even from the same place. Bronze age, late bronze age and all that may have happened in northwestern subcontinent but no bronze age ever happened in south India. Then there are some early iron finds in south India and a rapid transition into a full fledged iron age in south India beginning from 1200-1100 BC. Ashmound Tradition is significantly older, dating from around 2500 BC - 2000 BC, and is strictly limited to the cultural core of the Southern Neolithic Tradition, which pertains to the oldest sites seen in the Krishna-Tungabhadra doab in modern day Karnataka and some places of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh. So, you can have the Dravidian speakers either coming with whatever metals they have (but definitely not bronze) or after collapse of IVC (with the archaeological record strongly indicating that the Indus Valley Civilisation did move but that they moved to the east towards the Gangetic plains, rather than to any southern places; I now get it, you perhaps think that these post-Harappans of Uttar Pradesh took a second movement to south India; anyway, even when the Harappan cities were flourishing, there did exist some cultures in India proper with strong affinities to Harappan or at least Indus Valley traditions- many of them beginning from 2500 BC or so in Maharashtra and Gangetic plains but not south India is not one of them; also ashmounds are a purely Southern Neolithic phenomenon- they are found nowhere else in the country) or simply with wheat and barley or "with Ashmounds" let's say, which were significantly earlier and most importantly, before the cities begin at Harappa. It may be true that there is this one great paleolithic Iran signature in all these disparate groups of Indians today, but these ancient groups (Indus Valley Civilisation, Southern Neolithic, Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures, etc.) related to the remote Iranian-hunter-gatherer-like people can safely be considered to have exhibited high cultural diversity and even speaking very divergent languages, many of which may have been lost. A case in point may perhaps be the presence of so many linguistic isolates in the Ancient Near East and the high amount of linguistic diversity in the Caucasus mountains today. For example, there is clear evidence for the existence of a lost substrate language called "Language X" which is not Dravidian and not Munda that contributed much of the agricultural vocabulary to Hindi and likely other Indo-Aryan languages too. There is a stronger likelihood for this Language X to have been the language resulting from the expansion of Indus Valley Tradition into the Gangetic plains before IVC collapse and also post-Harappan movement into the same place, than for Dravidian.

As for Nairs, in some respects, they are the opposite of Brahmins, in that I read they have very Dravidian-looking (may not be surely Dravidian though or somewhat intensified developments of the original Dravidian model which may have had some sort of importance for matrilines) traditions like matrilineal property transference which survive in other Dravidian cultures only weakly today in religious rituals, etc. where the maternal uncle of a child does the first hair-tonsure of a child rather than father.

Edit1: Of course, I did not in any way imply the Dravidian systems are majorly matrilineal or anything like that- in Kerala also, patriliny is the norm it appears, in Ezhavas and all other non-Brahmins. Elsewhere (edit 2: except some Tulu-speaking groups like Bunts, Billavas? and also Tiyyas of Kerala, I find) patriliny is the norm. I just wanted to emphasise the huge difference between the Nairs and Brahmins though they were two groups that were extremely close friends through history.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 10:41 PM
To a Eurocentric maybe its not interesting. But please show me which ancestry calc modelled Malas as 20% steppe.

Also, Nairs were never Brahmins, believing in Dravidian customs such as Nag worship (also seen throughout India but not traceable to the Indo-European religion), and this does not explain Kush and the Telugu samples high CHG



What language was spoken in the Northern Gangetic plans at that time?

Perhaps you should visit the Lazardis paper its open to the public.
NO South Indian population is going to have high CHG, with exceptions being Parsis settled in South India.



As far as languages go it could be either Dravidian , early Vedic, or even Para Munda which is considered the main language for IVC zone along the Indus.

parasar
10-15-2017, 10:49 PM
... Looking at your results its safe to say "Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off.

This is not true.
Nairs were the martial class of the Cheras, and as a whole are not brahmannical, but due to sambandh (relationships) with Brahmans (Parasuram Nambuthiris) they have genetic connections. The clearest one IMO would be the presence of R1a1-Z93.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 10:57 PM
Oh no... I'm triggered again. I will really try and make it the last post of mine related to this. The thing is, I'm very confused by your usage of late bronze age/ early iron age and the Ashmound Tradition as if they are contemporary. They are not contemporary and they are not even from the same place. Bronze age, late bronze age and all that may have happened in northwestern subcontinent but no bronze age ever happened in south India. Then there are some early iron finds in south India and a rapid transition into a full fledged iron age in south India beginning from 1200-1100 BC. Ashmound Tradition is significantly older, dating from around 2500 BC - 2000 BC, and is strictly limited to the cultural core of the Southern Neolithic Tradition, which pertains to the oldest sites seen in the Krishna-Tungabhadra doab in modern day Karnataka and some places of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh. So, you can have the Dravidian speakers either coming with whatever metals they have (but definitely not bronze) or after collapse of IVC (with the archaeological record strongly indicating that the Indus Valley Civilisation did move but that they moved to the east towards the Gangetic plains, rather than to any southern places; I now get it, you perhaps think that these post-Harappans of Uttar Pradesh took a second movement to south India; anyway, even when the Harappan cities were flourishing, there did exist some cultures in India proper with strong affinities to Harappan or at least Indus Valley traditions- many of them beginning from 2500 BC or so in Maharashtra and Gangetic plains but not south India is not one of them; also ashmounds are a purely Southern Neolithic phenomenon- they are found nowhere else in the country) or simply with wheat and barley or "with Ashmounds" let's say, which were significantly earlier and most importantly, before the cities begin at Harappa. It may be true that there is this one great paleolithic Iran signature in all these disparate groups of Indians today, but these ancient groups (Indus Valley Civilisation, Southern Neolithic, Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures, etc.) related to the remote Iranian-hunter-gatherer-like people can safely be considered to have exhibited high cultural diversity and even speaking very divergent languages, many of which may have been lost. A case in point may perhaps be the presence of so many linguistic isolates in the Ancient Near East and the high amount of linguistic diversity in the Caucasus mountains today. For example, there is clear evidence for the existence of a lost substrate language called "Language X" which is not Dravidian and not Munda that contributed much of the agricultural vocabulary to Hindi and likely other Indo-Aryan languages too. There is a stronger likelihood for this Language X to have been the language resulting from the expansion of Indus Valley Tradition into the Gangetic plains before IVC collapse and also post-Harappan movement into the same place, than for Dravidian.

As for Nairs, in some respects, they are the opposite of Brahmins, in that I read they have very Dravidian-looking (may not be surely Dravidian though or somewhat intensified developments of the original Dravidian model which may have had some sort of importance for matrilines) traditions like matrilineal property transference which survive in other Dravidian cultures only weakly today in religious rituals, etc. where the maternal uncle of a child does the first hair-tonsure of a child rather than father.

Language X you mean Para Munda, yes before people thought it was bogus, but this language has influenced northern Indo Aryan dialects as well as Dardic, and I am even seeing it in Nuristani even, which I found quite interesting. Its almost automatic to associate retroflexive consonants with Dravidian but Para Munda has distinctive glottal sounds, otherwise seen in Afro Asiatic languages, also which are absent in Dravidian as far as I know. I am believe its a sister clade language of Dravidian, but who knows. My guess is Para Munda was the lingua franca in the northern areas of the Indus extending into the Hindu Kush. I think Punjabi based of the number of glottal type sounds it has coupled with retroflexive consonants is the language which has received the largest influence from it , sound wise. This makes sense again because Punjab is concentrated mainly on the northern Indus.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 11:05 PM
This is not true.
Nairs were the martial class of the Cheras, and as a whole are not brahmannical, but due to sambandh (relationships) with Brahmans (Parasuram Nambuthiris) they have genetic connections. The clearest one IMO would be the presence of R1a1-Z93.

Regardless of their caste nomenclature, they clearly have the same ethnogenesis pattern and guess what they do have a good amount of R1a. So yeah its true.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

wgjkkwjkf
10-15-2017, 11:11 PM
To a Eurocentric maybe its not interesting. To a South Asian, it is interesting, because it goes beyond the lazy research which modelled Indians as conquering Brahmin white people and tribal natives, that has been debunked and nuanced via Moorjani etc

For me this means IVC was ANI/Iran_N or mostly ANI/Iran_N and that these people still form one of the biggest autosomal components in south Asian ethnic groups. It also means, all said and done Brahmin/Steppe ancestry (EHG+WHG) is the 3rd or 4th biggest ancestral component for most Indians, even northern Indo-Aryans

But please show me which ancestry calc modelled Malas as 20% steppe.

Also if you knew Kerala history, Nairs were never Brahmins, believing in Dravidian customs such as Nag worship (also seen throughout India but not traceable to the Indo-European religion). This also does not explain Kush and the Telugu samples high CHG



What language was spoken in the Northern Gangetic plans at that time?

But I recall reading (something like) that Brahmin men married Nair women and the offspring children became Nairs. Apparently this custom persisted for centuries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair
Marriage systemFuller has commented that "The Nayars' marriage system has made them one of the most famous of all communities in anthropological circles",[60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Fuller1975p283-66) and Amitav Ghosh says that, although matrilineal systems are not uncommon in communities of the south Indian coast, the Nairs "have achieved an unparalleled eminence in the anthropological literature on matrilineality".[61] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-67) None of the rituals survive in any significant way today. Two forms of ritual marriage were traditional:[62] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Fuller1975p284.2B297-68)


the pre-puberty rite for girls known as thalikettu kalyanam, which was usually followed by sambandham when they became sexually mature. The sambandham was the point at which the woman might take one or more partners and bear children by them, giving rise to the theories of them engaging in polyandrous (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyandry) practices. A ritual called the tirandukuli marked the first menstruation and usually took place between these two events.[63] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Fuller1975p297-69)
a form of hypergamy,[g] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-71) whereby high-ranked Nairs married Samantans, Kshatriyas and Brahmins.

There is much debate about whether the traditional Nair rituals fitted the traditional definition of marriage and which of thalikettu kalyanam or sambandham could lay claim to it.[65] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Moore1985-72)[66] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Moore1988-73) Thomas Nossiter has commented that the system "was so loosely arranged as to raise doubts as to whether 'marriage' existed at all."[67] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nair#cite_note-Nossiter1982p27-74)

bmoney
10-15-2017, 11:17 PM
Perhaps you should visit the Lazardis paper its open to the public.
NO South Indian population is going to have high CHG, with exceptions being Parsis settled in South India. As far as languages go it could be either Dravidian , early Vedic, or even Para Munda which is considered the main language for IVC zone along the Indus.

Do you have a link to it? I can only see abstracts. But there is no way the Mala would have 20% Steppe ancestry, not sure how the paper came up with that conclusion.

In any case the admixture calculators both HarappaDNA and probably K9 ASI do not show steppe ancestry for the Mala, so not sure why you're extrapolating Lazaridis onto this

I take CHG in K9 ASI to be a proxy for Iran_N which I think you have already said is mostly Iran_N, so I'm not arguing this point. Maybe the calculator creator can step in and explain what the CHG represents

As for Para-Munda, being the language, I'm hope we'll see later research that would settle the matter. My guess is Dravidian through influencing the Middle-Indo-Aryan languages throughout India

parasar
10-15-2017, 11:18 PM
Regardless of their caste nomenclature, they clearly have the same ethnogenesis pattern and guess what they do have a good amount of R1a. So yeah its true.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/nair/default.aspx?section=yresults

No this is absolutely not true - ""Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off."
But that the Nairs would have some genetic overlap with Nambuthiri brahmans is true. Almost every group in South Asia has genetic overlap with brahmans and if you note brahmans are a group found all over South Asia.

parasar
10-15-2017, 11:23 PM
But I recall reading (something like) that Brahmin men married Nair women and the offspring children became Nairs. Apparently this custom persisted for centuries.



Some Nair women who were matriarchal heads had sambandh with the Nambuthiri first born, so some Nair males had direct Nambuthiri ancestry and over generations some of the Nambuthiri ancestry is bound to have spread among the whole Nair community.

bmoney
10-15-2017, 11:25 PM
No this is absolutely not true - ""Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off."
But that the Nairs would have some genetic overlap with Nambuthiri brahmans is true. Almost every group in South Asia has genetic overlap with brahmans and if you note brahmans are a group found all over South Asia.

Exactly. My sub-caste did not consort with Brahmins, though this was practiced by aspirational Nairs from certain regions in Kerala.

Regardless, R1a1-Z93 is common in Chenchus a tribal Dravidian caste, and in non-Brahmin Dravidians in general (relatively common compared to other y groups).

Also, Kush has 3.99% EHG

bmoney
10-15-2017, 11:41 PM
Oh no... I'm triggered again. I will really try and make it the last post of mine related to this. The thing is, I'm very confused by your usage of late bronze age/ early iron age and the Ashmound Tradition as if they are contemporary. They are not contemporary and they are not even from the same place. Bronze age, late bronze age and all that may have happened in northwestern subcontinent but no bronze age ever happened in south India. Then there are some early iron finds in south India and a rapid transition into a full fledged iron age in south India beginning from 1200-1100 BC. Ashmound Tradition is significantly older, dating from around 2500 BC - 2000 BC, and is strictly limited to the cultural core of the Southern Neolithic Tradition, which pertains to the oldest sites seen in the Krishna-Tungabhadra doab in modern day Karnataka and some places of Telangana and Andhra Pradesh. So, you can have the Dravidian speakers either coming with whatever metals they have (but definitely not bronze) or after collapse of IVC (with the archaeological record strongly indicating that the Indus Valley Civilisation did move but that they moved to the east towards the Gangetic plains, rather than to any southern places; I now get it, you perhaps think that these post-Harappans of Uttar Pradesh took a second movement to south India; anyway, even when the Harappan cities were flourishing, there did exist some cultures in India proper with strong affinities to Harappan or at least Indus Valley traditions- many of them beginning from 2500 BC or so in Maharashtra and Gangetic plains but not south India is not one of them; also ashmounds are a purely Southern Neolithic phenomenon- they are found nowhere else in the country) or simply with wheat and barley or "with Ashmounds" let's say, which were significantly earlier and most importantly, before the cities begin at Harappa. It may be true that there is this one great paleolithic Iran signature in all these disparate groups of Indians today, but these ancient groups (Indus Valley Civilisation, Southern Neolithic, Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures, etc.) related to the remote Iranian-hunter-gatherer-like people can safely be considered to have exhibited high cultural diversity and even speaking very divergent languages, many of which may have been lost. A case in point may perhaps be the presence of so many linguistic isolates in the Ancient Near East and the high amount of linguistic diversity in the Caucasus mountains today. For example, there is clear evidence for the existence of a lost substrate language called "Language X" which is not Dravidian and not Munda that contributed much of the agricultural vocabulary to Hindi and likely other Indo-Aryan languages too. There is a stronger likelihood for this Language X to have been the language resulting from the expansion of Indus Valley Tradition into the Gangetic plains before IVC collapse and also post-Harappan movement into the same place, than for Dravidian.

Interesting, you could be right. The iron age was definitely brought from the north, with no continuity before that


As for Nairs, in some respects, they are the opposite of Brahmins, in that I read they have very Dravidian-looking (may not be surely Dravidian though or somewhat intensified developments of the original Dravidian model which may have had some sort of importance for matrilines) traditions like matrilineal property transference which survive in other Dravidian cultures only weakly today in religious rituals, etc. where the maternal uncle of a child does the first hair-tonsure of a child rather than father.

Dravidian looking?, what would you consider a Bihari middle-caste with 50-55% ASI looks like? Indo-Aryan?. Visual anthropology is misleading, also I can guarantee I do not look like what you believe is 'Dravidian'


Edit1: Of course, I did not in any way imply the Dravidian systems are majorly matrilineal or anything like that- in Kerala also, patriliny is the norm it appears, in Ezhavas and all other non-Brahmins. Elsewhere (edit 2: except some Tulu-speaking groups like Bunts, Billavas? and also Tiyyas of Kerala, I find) patriliny is the norm. I just wanted to emphasise the huge difference between the Nairs and Brahmins though they were two groups that were extremely close friends through history.

Thats right, matrinileanity is uncommon in the south, also notably practiced by the Newari Sino-Tibetans, but again lets stick to admixture. This is going back to Eurocentric theorising

parasar
10-15-2017, 11:43 PM
Exactly. My sub-caste did not consort with Brahmins, though this was practiced by aspirational Nairs from certain regions in Kerala.

Regardless, R1a1-Z93 is common in Chenchus a tribal Dravidian caste, and in non-Brahmin Dravidians in general (relatively common compared to other y groups).

Also, Kush has 3.99% EHG

Yes that is correct. As I had mentioned Brahmans as a class are everywhere in South Asia so there are overlaps with them everywhere. There are multiple recent R1a1 lines among the Chenchus, one very recent. That the Chenchus follow the gotra system is also a good indicator of their brahmannical connections. Cavalli Sforza had at very early date clubbed Chenchus genetically in a group with AP Brahmans, so the high Z93 is no surprise.

pegasus
10-15-2017, 11:46 PM
No this is absolutely not true - ""Nairs" are some sort of some Brahmin group which splintered off."
But that the Nairs would have some genetic overlap with Nambuthiri brahmans is true. Almost every group in South Asia has genetic overlap with brahmans and if you note brahmans are a group found all over South Asia.

Brahmins are relatively recent arrivals to Kerala, if the "Nairs "are clustering so close with South Indian Brahmins, it safe to say the splintered off them before any caste nomenclature was assigned. Also from what I am seeing South Indian Brahmins don't seem to be suffering from the crazy bottleneck and founder effects you see in other Brahmin groups. As the other user mentioned there seems to be no issue of inter marriage so clearly there is documented shared ancestry and their results look ridiculously similar even the ones Khana put up.

anthroin
10-15-2017, 11:54 PM
Language X you mean Para Munda, yes before people thought it was bogus, but this language has influenced northern Indo Aryan dialects as well as Dardic, and I am even seeing it in Nuristani even, which I found quite interesting. Its almost automatic to associate retroflexive consonants with Dravidian but Para Munda has distinctive glottal sounds, otherwise seen in Afro Asiatic languages, also which are absent in Dravidian as far as I know. I am believe its a sister clade language of Dravidian, but who knows. My guess is Para Munda was the lingua franca in the northern areas of the Indus extending into the Hindu Kush. I think Punjabi based of the number of glottal type sounds it has coupled with retroflexive consonants is the language which has received the largest influence from it , sound wise. This makes sense again because Punjab is concentrated mainly on the northern Indus.

I am going by the discussion done by Franklin C. Southworth in section 2.3.2 of Chapter 2 in the 2016 book, "The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia: A Comprehensive Guide" (https://books.google.com/books?id=PSFBDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=languages+and+linguistics+of+south+asia&source=bl&ots=6G6UEgzLKG&sig=xFhEKFaSlm29X6299uXIInhxBP8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFrvqa4PPWAhUFJCYKHbaQBtEQ6AEIVzAI#v=on epage&q=languages%20and%20linguistics%20of%20south%20asi a&f=false). In that section, Southworth presents Michael Witzel's 1999 idea as this:
1. 383 non-IE words in Rigveda came from all the substrates- some of them from the lost BMAC substrate.
2. a "Para-Munda" language in Punjab, called that because of its prefixes as discerned by Witzel and some possible lexical connections to the current Munda languages.
3. a "Northern Indus language" having words of unknown origin with reflexes majorly in today's North Indo-Aryan languages.
4. a "Southern Indus language", it's the "Meluhhan" referred to in the ancient Mesopotamian sources which give the list of the 40 words.
5. Dravidian words from Middle and Late Vedic period. Witzel considers (South) Dravidian speakers to have migrated north into Sindh and even may be into Punjab from Maharashtra at that time period.
6. The "Language X" whose existence was inferred by Colin P. Masica in 1979 as the non-Dravidian and the non-Austroasiatic contributor of agricultural words to Hindi is treated as a language of the Gangetic plains, even older than the "Northern Indus language" and the "Southern Indus language" by Witzel.

He presents his own thinking related to the "Indus languages" in section 2.3.2.4 thus:

1. Southworth thinks of words like nIla, 'blue', Amra, 'mango', etc. to have been from the Indus languages.
2. He also includes the words from the above-mentioned "Language X" into these "Indus languages" source because he thinks that many of these words are not limited to Hindi and present in many Indo-Aryan languages.
3. Southworth appears to accept a "Para-Munda" language of Witzel, mainly located in Punjab but also thinks of a more Dravidian presence in that northwestern Indus area (beginning only in the third millennium BC and as a language of peripheral pastoralists on their way to south India from Elam and speaking languages related to Elamite; a proposal which, of course, does not enjoy mainstream support.) and thus loitering there long enough to give what he considers some Dravidian-origin words to even the undifferentiated Proto-Indo-Iranian, which would potentially have been in places like Afghanistan and much more northern. (In fact, I personally think this alluring list of two or three words (Sanskrit (with also reflex in Avestan) tanU, 'body', Sanskrit (with also reflex in Avestan) iti, 'having said' (edit: Sanskrit iti is perhaps better characterised as a quotative particle)) in Proto-Indo-Iranian that appear to be of Dravidian origin (PDr. *tAn 'self', PDr. *vitti 'having caused to hear' (the second one feels like a strange construction to me personally; it is legal grammatically but strange- as far as I know, modern languages mainly use the word for 'having said' without using 'having caused to hear'. I may be wrong though.) is the one which has motivated Southworth to entertain the Elamo-Dravidian hypothesis (Southworth also notes that it may be possible (he does not signal any more strongness than possibility) that Dravidian, Uralic and Elamite are all related- however, as we know, this is not a mainstream position at all) and also the late presence of Dravidian in that extreme northwestern area at even 2500 BC and surrounds)

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:01 AM
I am going by the discussion done by Franklin C. Southworth in section 2.3.2 of Chapter 2 in the 2016 book, [URL="https://books.google.com/books?id=PSFBDAAAQBAJ&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=languages+and+linguistics+of+south+asia&source=bl&ots=6G6UEgzLKG&sig=xFhEKFaSlm29X6299uXIInhxBP8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjFrvqa4PPWAhUFJCYKHbaQBtEQ6AEIVzAI#v=on epage&q=languages%20and%20linguistics%20of%20south%20asi a&f=false"]"The Languages and Linguistics of South Asia:

Nice one!

anthroin
10-16-2017, 12:05 AM
Dravidian looking?, what would you consider a Bihari middle-caste with 50-55% ASI looks like? Indo-Aryan?. Visual anthropology is misleading, also I can guarantee I do not look like what you believe is 'Dravidian'


I wrote Dravidian-looking traditions, meaning the traditions appear to have some sort of an ancient Dravidian-like connection to them (before I abandoned that sort of thinking; now I settle with non-Aryan traditions); no references to any phenotypical characteristics whatsoever. As for a Bihari with 50-55% ASI, if that person happens to speak Indo-Aryan languages, I would classify them as Indo-Aryan. In fact, I made a mistake in writing "Indo-Aryan" in my first post when speaking about the possible Buddhist-related admixture in Velamas when I actually meant "steppe". I will not repeat that mistake. Indo-Aryan mainly refers to languages. And words like "steppe", "Iran_N", "ASI" are somewhat idealised terms for sources of most of north Indian and south Indian modern ancestry, barring Austro-asiatic speakers, some Dravidian speakers like Gonds and also Tibeto-Burman speakers, etc.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:05 AM
Brahmins are relatively recent arrivals to Kerala, if the "Nairs "are clustering so close with South Indian Brahmins, it safe to say the splintered off them before any caste nomenclature was assigned. Also from what I am seeing South Indian Brahmins don't seem to be suffering from the crazy bottleneck and founder effects you see in other Brahmin groups. As the other user mentioned there seems to be no issue of inter marriage so clearly there is documented shared ancestry and their results look ridiculously similar even the ones Khana put up.

Forget the Nairs, do you have Bunt, Reddy results? They are also non-Brahmin in origin. My guess is they would be mainly Iran_N or 50/50 Iran_N/ASI and that they cluster together, with south Indian Brahmins shifting towards them rather than the other way

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:07 AM
I wrote Dravidian-looking traditions, meaning the traditions appear to have some sort of an ancient Dravidian-like connection to them (before I abandoned that sort of thinking; now I settle with non-Aryan traditions); no references to any phenotypical characteristics whatsoever. As for a Bihari with 50-55% ASI, if that person happens to speak Indo-Aryan languages, I would classify them as Indo-Aryan. In fact, I made a mistake in writing "Indo-Aryan" in my first post when speaking about the possible Buddhist-related admixture in Velamas when I actually meant "steppe". I will not repeat that mistake. Indo-Aryan mainly refers to languages. And words like "steppe", "Iran_N", "ASI" are somewhat idealised terms for sources of most of north Indian and south Indian modern ancestry, barring Austro-asiatic speakers, some Dravidian speakers like Gonds and also Tibeto-Burman speakers, etc.

Got you, yep agree with your statements

anthroin
10-16-2017, 12:13 AM
Brahmins are relatively recent arrivals to Kerala, if the "Nairs "are clustering so close with South Indian Brahmins, it safe to say the splintered off them before any caste nomenclature was assigned. Also from what I am seeing South Indian Brahmins don't seem to be suffering from the crazy bottleneck and founder effects you see in other Brahmin groups. As the other user mentioned there seems to be no issue of inter marriage so clearly there is documented shared ancestry and their results look ridiculously similar even the ones Khana put up.

If I am right in my thinking here, this either actually best elucidates the potential that purely genetics-based (perhaps other sciences too) interpretations have to mask the complexity generally seen in social groups or your interpretation of the results you are seeing is not proper. I can perhaps say it with a bit of a confidence that no scholar considers Nairs and Brahmins to have same cultural and genetic origins. It is known history and these are two known groups. They may have interacted with each other but that's about it- just interaction. Their origins are not the same.

pegasus
10-16-2017, 12:18 AM
If I am right in my thinking here, this either actually best elucidates the potential that purely genetics-based (perhaps other sciences too) interpretations have to mask the complexity generally seen in social groups or your interpretation of the results you are seeing is not proper. I can perhaps say it with a bit of a confidence that no scholar considers Nairs and Brahmins to have same cultural and genetic origins. It is known history and these are two known groups. They may have interacted with each other but that's about it- just interaction. Their origins are not the same.

I did not make the results up , and thats my viewpoint but whatever floats your boat.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:27 AM
If I am right in my thinking here, this either actually best elucidates the potential that purely genetics-based (perhaps other sciences too) interpretations have to mask the complexity generally seen in social groups or your interpretation of the results you are seeing is not proper. I can perhaps say it with a bit of a confidence that no scholar considers Nairs and Brahmins to have same cultural and genetic origins. It is known history and these are two known groups. They may have interacted with each other but that's about it- just interaction. Their origins are not the same.

Thank you. It it lazy thinking (not accusing Pegasus himself but just alluding to historical examples) which was found commonly in early Indian history where everything good and foreign was attributed to the Brahmin/Indo-Europeans as that reflected better on the European historians themselves, or perhaps it was genuine belief.

I am a lactase persistent south Indian, which my Indo-Aryan Punjabi fiancé is not. The default Eurocentric view is to say I'm the bastard offspring of a Brahmin, which is not possible as my caste were historical farmers and landlords.

Turns out that lactase persistence did not exist for the mainly EHG Yamnaya who might have brought some small levels of it from interacting with the Srubnaya, but it already existed in the IVC where it was brought from the West.

I would really love to know more about the IVC peoples:

http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/06/14/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna
We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population who seem to have some European Farmer-like ancestry.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2012/Mol_Biol_Evol-2012-Gallego_Romero-249-60

The ear- liest evidence of cattle herding in south Asia comes from the Indus River Valley site of Mehrgarh and is dated to ;7,000 YBP (Meadow 1993), thus postdating the predicted start of the European Neolithic sweep ;7,500 YBP (Burger et al. 2007; Itan et al. 2009). It is therefore plausible that from Europe, the allele subsequently spread into Central Asia, the Near East, Pakistan, and India, although not nec- essarily by the same route or the same demographic event

Furthermore, haplo- type analyses indicate that the -13910*T allele in India is identical by descent to that found in Europe and western Asia, whereas examination of the pattern of haplotype block structure in the context of the archaeological history of herding across this intercontinental region suggests that the -13910*T allele was introduced to India from the west.

Geography is a significant predictor of -13910*T allele frequency, and consistent with other genomic loci, its distribution in India follows a general northwest to southeast declining pattern, although frequencies among certain neighboring populations vary substantially. We confirm that the mutation is identical by descent to the European allele and is associated with the same .1 Mb extended haplotype in both populations.

pegasus
10-16-2017, 12:35 AM
The Reddy samples I have seen I think are from Andrea Pradesh and the telecom workers here have that surname for some reason. They look much more ASI shifted than the Kerala samples the ones I have seen used which more or less are like on the same cline as yours. The one population of interest to me from Kerala which I think which would be extremely interesting would be that of the Toda as I think they are probably a relic post IVC like population and whatever Y dna they had from samples was mainly J2.
Here is a list with various SI admixtures its dated but its a pretty decent bench mark wrt admixtures, though treemix I find more current.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/#.WeP7r2hSxPY

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 12:38 AM
Is there any relation between Nair and Nayyar?

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:39 AM
The Reddy samples I have seen I think are from Andrea Pradesh and the telecom workers here have that surname for some reason. They look much more ASI shifted than the Kerala samples the ones I have seen used which more or less are like on the same cline as yours. The one population of interest to me from Kerala which I think which would be extremely interesting would be that of the Toda as I think they are probably a relic post IVC like population and whatever Y dna they had from samples was mainly J2.
Here is a list with various SI admixtures its dated but its a pretty decent bench mark wrt admixtures, though treemix I find more current.
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2013/08/what-the-harappa-ancestry-project-has-resolved/#.WeP7r2hSxPY

Cheers!

Yep the Toda are old Dravidians, and some of them are phenotypically northern Indian/ANI in appearance. Also the Coorgis would be an interesting reference population, another old Dravidian caste with ANI like phenotypic affinities

bmoney
10-16-2017, 12:40 AM
Is there any relation between Nair and Nayyar?


None, Nayyars are Punjabi Khatris with a similar sounding caste name

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 12:41 AM
None, Nayyars are Punjabi Khatris with a similar sounding caste name

Thanks. I had known some Nayyars in Multan, and I always just assumed they were Haryanvi that settled post-1947, but the discussion about Nairs got me wondering. Didn't know they were Khatri. Makes sense though.

pegasus
10-16-2017, 12:42 AM
Thank you. It it lazy thinking (not accusing Pegasus himself but just alluding to historical examples) which was found commonly in early Indian history where everything good and foreign was attributed to the Brahmin/Indo-Europeans as that reflected better on the European historians themselves, or perhaps it was genuine belief.

I am a lactase persistent south Indian, which my Indo-Aryan Punjabi fiancé is not. The default Eurocentric view is to say I'm the bastard offspring of a Brahmin, which is not possible as my caste were historical farmers and landlords.

Turns out that lactase persistence did not exist for the mainly EHG Yamnaya who might have brought some small levels of it from interacting with the Srubnaya, but it already existed in the IVC where it was brought from the West.

I would really love to know more about the IVC peoples:

http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/06/14/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna
We didn’t find any evidence for LP in early farming populations like the LBK, or in early Bronze age steppe populations like the Yamnaya. In as-yet unreported data, we find a few copies of the allele in the Srubnaya - a later steppe population who seem to have some European Farmer-like ancestry.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2012/Mol_Biol_Evol-2012-Gallego_Romero-249-60

The ear- liest evidence of cattle herding in south Asia comes from the Indus River Valley site of Mehrgarh and is dated to ;7,000 YBP (Meadow 1993), thus postdating the predicted start of the European Neolithic sweep ;7,500 YBP (Burger et al. 2007; Itan et al. 2009). It is therefore plausible that from Europe, the allele subsequently spread into Central Asia, the Near East, Pakistan, and India, although not nec- essarily by the same route or the same demographic event

Furthermore, haplo- type analyses indicate that the -13910*T allele in India is identical by descent to that found in Europe and western Asia, whereas examination of the pattern of haplotype block structure in the context of the archaeological history of herding across this intercontinental region suggests that the -13910*T allele was introduced to India from the west.

Geography is a significant predictor of -13910*T allele frequency, and consistent with other genomic loci, its distribution in India follows a general northwest to southeast declining pattern, although frequencies among certain neighboring populations vary substantially. We confirm that the mutation is identical by descent to the European allele and is associated with the same .1 Mb extended haplotype in both populations.

my guess is lactose tolerance existed in the Eneolithic proto IVC as Aurochs could possibly have not been bred for mass meat consumption, also groups like the Toda which likely have no steppe and are totally reliant on Buffalo milk provides a big clue.

Another thing that is a dated study using Taurine cattle, which is common in Europe , Near East and Steppe. They did not use Zebus/Aurochs and Water Buffalos. Marsh Arabs have also for millenia used water buffalos ( introduced by IVC ) for dairy, even today in Iraq and in Egypt, milk comes from water buffalos as its thicker and they lactate far more.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 01:01 AM
Interesting, you could be right. The iron age was definitely brought from the north, with no continuity before that

Most of the evidences actually point to perfect cultural continuity. There is a widely recognised Neolithic-Megalithic transition with secure iron finds in Hallur beginning as early as 1200 BC (when there was no evidence for iron whatsoever in the copper-using northern peninsula at that time). Some recent papers talk about finds of iron in Uttar Pradesh in 1800 BC, but I don't know the consensus regarding that publication. (These iron competitions keep on happening like this- some newspaper article also talked about finds of iron in some excavated sites in Telangana from 2400 BC! I don't personally know where archaeologists publish consensuses and things like that.)

As for the weakest weakpoint that can point to discontinuity, I can think of just one-

1. The presence of wheat and barley alongside the native crops of horsegram, greengram, bristly foxtail millet and browntop millet beginning from the earliest dates when the physical archaeobotanical evidence becomes available. These wheat and barley growers could have been the Dravidian speaking migrants from the northern Deccan chalcolithic cultures in Savalda, Kayatha, etc. That's it. Just this major fault point is there in the story.

In all other respects, Southern Neolithic shows a gradual development- ceramics, metal use, trade connections with northern peninsular cultures, etc. The zebus of 2800 BC onwards are the most important candidate to be considered for associating a demic diffusion of Dravidian speakers into the peninsula in my view.

Earlier people used to think of another grand story where Dravidian speakers came from the northwest via Sindh, Saurashtra, Maharashtra coast bringing iron and megaliths with them, but note that they have to come only around 1500 BC in this story. That means there is no necessity that these 1500 BC megalithic Dravidians have to be connected to the IVC and all that. But also note, there is another equally dramatic story that actually makes Iranians, as in speakers of the languages of the Iranic-branch of Indo-European languages bring megaliths and war-like culture to south India- Asko Parpola's Iranic-speaking ancestors of the Pandavas of the Mahabharata. In this story, it is Indo-Aryans of the Gangetic plains who give the iron to south Indians. Yet another story considers Indo-Aryans to have given both the iron and megaliths. Now, while keeping in mind the apparent and likely story that the megaliths were a native development and iron may have involved a cultural diffusion if not a native development driven by the shortage of copper supply from the northern peninsular chalcolithic cultures, which of the above three stories may be even remotely probable? Maybe the third. And if the world is indeed very magical, which it very well may be, seeing the huge language shift to Indo-Aryan in north India (mind you, if a broad language known as Proto-Indo-European did not appear to exist in the Neolithic-Chalcolithic age, I would have seen no reason to not consider Indo-Aryan as native to the parts where it is spoken now. Anyway, the CHG connection of the steppe appears to have propelled genetics people to consider other models for the arrival of Indo-Aryans into South Asia, but linguistics may indeed win out in the end or may be not too-I don't know. For the moment at least, the linguistic evidence at least points to the presence of pre-Indo-Aryan substrates in the northwestern and northern areas and some sort of a chronology of the stages leading to the emergence of PIA in the second half of the third millennium BC, from the breakup of PIE), the second or the first may also have happened. But for now, in the non-magical world, what about the observed Neolithic-Megalithic transition though?

aDNA, if it's possible to be collected from the sites of southern Deccan, can go some way in helping resolving these migration questions that inevitably seem to pop up at every phase transition of the Southern Neolithic, but I don't know if it's even possible, in the distant future or the near future. The results of Vidarbha megaliths may go some way in ruling out or confirming the Iranic and Indo-Aryan authorship hypotheses of the megaliths.

kush
10-16-2017, 01:09 AM
Forget the Nairs, do you have Bunt, Reddy results? They are also non-Brahmin in origin. My guess is they would be mainly Iran_N or 50/50 Iran_N/ASI and that they cluster together, with south Indian Brahmins shifting towards them rather than the other way

bmoney, I could be wrong but aren't many nairs mixed with kerala Brahmins? Nambiars are the major brahmin community I think over in kerala. I think thats why nairs cluster closer to south indian brahmins than to other middle castes from south india. You especially are at 45% for south indian on harappa. Thats almost the same as Varun who's a kannada-tamil brahmin and he's already very northern shifted among south indian brahmins. Reddys are very ASI shifted comapred to nairs. I have 10% more south indian than you. Thats quite substantial. I think south indian brahmins cluster towards north indian kshatriyas before they do to Reddys, Velamas, Gowds, etc. Nairs are probably the most northern shifted among south indian middle castes. Actually nairs have less SI than AP brahmins on harappa.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 01:18 AM
I did not make the results up , and thats my viewpoint but whatever floats your boat.

I only suggested that there could be other more likely ways to see the results other than the way in which you appeared to me to have seen them. Not that you made the results up or anything like that. In fact, I don't even properly know what the data is, what the analyses are and what the results are and what the interpretations are, in this subject. I can only apologise if I offended you.

Edit: Lol! What nonsense writing! Corrected now.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 01:18 AM
Earlier people used to think of another grand story where Dravidian speakers came from the northwest via Sindh, Saurashtra, Maharashtra coast bringing iron and megaliths with them, but note that they have to come only around 1500 BC in this story. That means there is no necessity that these 1500 BC megalithic Dravidians have to be connected to the IVC and all that. .

Can you expand on this? Why is this not plausible? Also side-note from me - how does the Inamgaon settlement fit into all of this?

parasar
10-16-2017, 01:18 AM
Thanks. I had known some Nayyars in Multan, and I always just assumed they were Haryanvi that settled post-1947, but the discussion about Nairs got me wondering. Didn't know they were Khatri. Makes sense though.

Nairs, Bunts etc. of the western coastal regions follow aliya-santana descent - "Nair ... the practice that a man’s heirs are not his own, but his sister's children ... Among the Buntar in Tulava, also, a man's property does not descend to his own children, but to those of his sister. Most of the people of Malabar ... agree in the usage of transmitting property through females only ... among all the races except Ponan and the Namburi Brahmans."


Now see this old tradition for the Panjab as mentioned in the Mahabharat:
"'those five rivers flow, viz., the Satadru, the Vipasa, the Iravati, the Candrabhaga, and the Vitasa and which have the Sindhu for their sixth, there in those regions removed from the Himavat, are the countries called by the name of the Arattas ... that the sisters' sons of the Arattas, and not their own sons, become their heirs ... in the country of the five rivers [i.e. modern Panj-ab] ..."



"suggest men moved in with their brides, even though in South Asia women traditionally move to their husband's homes. Confirmation of these early results, says lead author Mark Kenoyer of the University of Wisconsin–Madison, would point to a "system where women were powerful." The new study is pioneering, says Indus expert James Shaffer of Case Western Reserve University, and offers "one of the few real insights we have" into the structure of Harappan society. If the study is correct, Harappa's unusual gender roles could mean that social structure in the Indus region was radically different from that of other ancient cultures, Shaffer says."
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/13/130425-indus-civilization-discoveries-harappa-archaeology-science/




"a female-centred pattern: women were buried in megalithic graves,thereby alluding to their leading role in the household, while the remains of a male relative
Figure 7. Grave 6 at Udegram (photograph by R. Micheli). (?) played an important but secondary role as an ‘accessory’"

"funerary practices of protohistoric tradition seem to have continued until AD 800–1000 (Ali et al.
2002, 2008). One might presume that in Swat too, similarIron Age customs persisted after 800 BC until c
. 500–400 BC or later, as proposedby Stacul (1990, 1997). At present, however, there is no evidence to substantiate such a view. In contrast, at Saidu Sharif, an Early Historic graveyard dating to the fifth century BC was discovered below an important Buddhist sacred complex. Three radiocarbon dates on human bone demonstrate that by that time in the middle Swat Valley,completely different funerary practices had appeared that had nothing in common with the protohistoric traditions observed at Udegram and in other sites of the Swat Valley"

"Secondary, sometimes defleshed, burials of males often followed the primary interment of an adult female"
https://www.scribd.com/document/347223640/10-15184-aqy-2017-23

bmoney
10-16-2017, 01:28 AM
bmoney, I could be wrong but aren't many nairs mixed with kerala Brahmins? Nambiars are the major brahmin community I think over in kerala. I think thats why nairs cluster closer to south indian brahmins than to other middle castes from south india. You especially are at 45% for south indian on harappa. Thats almost the same as Varun who's a kannada-tamil brahmin and he's already very northern shifted among south indian brahmins. Reddys are very ASI shifted comapred to nairs. I have 10% more south indian than you. Thats quite substantial. I think south indian brahmins cluster towards north indian kshatriyas before they do to Reddys, Velamas, Gowds, etc. Nairs are probably the most northern shifted among south indian middle castes. Actually nairs have less SI than AP brahmins on harappa.

You're right, Brahmin mixture happened but was uncommon, and in happened mainly in middle-castes within the Nair caste hierarchy in one part of Kerala (central). I am from the landlord elite within the Nair caste, the sister caste to the Bunts of Karnataka. We saw no advantage in a Brahmin marriage alliance and have no historical records of Brahmin mixture.

I think what you're seeing is more a West to East ANI-ASI cline than a Brahmin mixture cline. Coastal Karnataka Brahmins and Karnataka Middle-castes will always be more ANI shifted than non-coastal or inland peoples and peoples from the Eastern States.

This is similar to how coastal Maharashtrians will be much more ANI shifted to the inland Vidharba peoples

Bunt/Toda/Coorgi samples would settle it I suppose.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 01:37 AM
Can you expand on this? Why is this not plausible?

It may very well be plausible. What isn't? But North Dravidian and Central Dravidian languages don't have a Dravidian-origin word for 'iron', which all South Dravidian languages from Malayalam to Kui have (the Dravidian construction is as 'dark thing' PSD *cir-umpu --> late-PSD *ir-umpu --> Malayalam irumpu, 'iron', Telugu inumu, 'iron', Kui rumba vaDi, 'iron stone', etc.). So naturally, linguists cannot reconstruct 'iron' for Proto-Dravidian. Also, in general, old scholars who supported this proposal did not consider Dravidian speakers to have been connected in any way to the Indus Valley Civilisation. They considered Proto-Dravidian speakers to have been some hill tribe from proper Iran or Central Asia.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 02:38 AM
Also side-note from me - how does the Inamgaon settlement fit into all of this?

I'm going by the book "Bioarchaeology and Climate Change : A View From South Asian Prehistory" right now which is accessible to me. The Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures of Maharashtra are divided into four phases: Savalda phase (2200 BC -1800 BC), Late Harappan phase (1800 BC - 1600 BC), Malwa phase (1600 BC - 1400 BC) and Jorwe phase (1400 BC - 700 BC). The several villages within Deccan Chalcolithic culture seem to have varying amounts of interactions with the post-IVC Indus tradition, Ahar culture of Rajasthan, etc. Some amount of immigration from post-IVC Gujarat after 1800 BC (i.e. Late Harappan phase) may have taken place. So the origins of this culture appear to be indigenous (as in non-Indus-tradition related) but post-IVC people from Gujarat and also people from Rajasthan might have come in significant numbers.

Inamgaon was founded c. 1565 BC in the Malwa phase and continues into the Jorwe phase. It is also one of the few Deccan Chalcolithic sites to have continued into the Late Jorwe phase (1000-700 BC). (This relates to the observation that many sites of the Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures indicated that people there shifted to hunting and gathering leaving agriculture, beginning at around 1000 BC.)

So, considering you may be generally talking about Deccan Chalcolithic cultures as opposed to just Inamgaon, it appears they had indigenous cultural origins (Savalda phase) but they were later on influenced by the post-Harappan people of Gujarat, etc. I don't know how they fit into the Dravidian scheme. They are considered as trade partners for the Southern Neolithic people who were a quite dynamic lot in their own right, creating huge ashmounds, collecting and later actively cultivating native millets in the savanna and native pulses in the Western Ghats and Eastern Ghats and all that like bosses- they supply these millets and pulses to the Deccan Chalcolithic Cultures for cultivation and also taking the wheat and barley from the Deccan Chalcolithic people but not giving them too much of an importance beside their native summer crops. As I noted in one of my posts earlier, if the people of the Southern Neolithic themselves were not Dravidian speakers, then migrants from the Deccan Chalcolithic cultures are a possible candidate- but only based on the single fault point that wheat and barley were also find in the physical archaeobotanical assemblage of the Southern Neolithic and also with minor cultural importance attached to them, compared to the native crops and African crops.

Also note, if these Dravidian-speakers indeed migrated from the Deccan Chalcolithic cultures into the Southern Deccan and managed to make the entire Southern Neolithic people to language shift to Dravidian, that's their only success. I think in that case, I can safely say that they did not dravidianise the Southern Neolithic but drastically got themselves southern-neolithic-ised lol. The Southern Neolithic continued to remain as dynamic as ever, with interesting cultural continuities like making "ash-circle graves" for their post-neolithic megalithic era elite burials, making use of the ash from the undoubtedly still culturally significant ashmounds, never abandoning its horsegram and greengram, etc.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 04:21 AM
So, considering you may be generally talking about Deccan Chalcolithic cultures as opposed to just Inamgaon, it appears they had indigenous cultural origins (Savalda phase) but they were later on influenced by the post-Harappan people of Gujarat, etc. I don't know how they fit into the Dravidian scheme. They are considered as trade partners for the Southern Neolithic people who were a quite dynamic lot in their own right, creating huge ashmounds, collecting and later actively cultivating native millets in the savanna and native pulses in the Western Ghats and Eastern Ghats and all that like bosses

Interesting, do you think it is these people who reflect the Andamanese/southern coastal route earliest settlers? And also how did they end up all the way in Afghanistan to the North and Sindh to the West

anthroin
10-16-2017, 04:55 AM
Interesting, do you think it is these people who reflect the Andamanese/southern coastal route earliest settlers? And also how did they end up all the way in Afghanistan to the North and Sindh to the West

By indigenous origins, I meant just cultural origins. In Indian archaeology, it appears they check if neolithic cultures have "Indus" origins or "non-Indus", i.e. native origins. Genetically, they may reflect pure South Asian Hunter Gatherer or groups already mixed with Iranian Hunter Gatherer/Iranian Neolithic groups.

As for why the archaic South Asian hunter gatherers (what we generally seem to call ASI) were present everywhere, in places like Afghanistan, etc., perhaps it's because they were South Asian hunter gatherers? And South Asia generally has a very distinct geological and climatic profile separate from Central Asia and Iran, no? Or the Afghanistani ASI may also be some Mehrgarh, Harappan, IVC and post-IVC phenomenon (this I think is less likely though, SA hunter gatherers I think may have been present in Afghanistan also) but in any case, in my view, SA hunter gatherers may surely have been present at least upto Punjab before the Mehrgarh neolithic. I am not at all familiar with the archaeology of upper paleolithic periods so I can't talk about it any further. I don't know about the origins of the SA hunter gatherers too, except that they belong to the eastern branch of out-of-Africa humans (Andamanese, Southeast Asians, East Asians, Indigenous Australians, etc.). More knowledgeable persons will answer you, hopefully.

Edit: Oh I did not quite follow yesterday what you have asked about. It appears you asked about the Southern Neolithic people. I personally believe the Southern Neolithic, from its inception has many characteristics of a Dravidian-type of culture, whatever that is- (it's majorly my instinct) (My thinking may be biased, it is biased I agree surely- it's that the semi arid Deccan that's between the Western Ghats and the Eastern Ghats is the defining entity and basis for at least two major cultures belonging to two different subgroups of languages within the Dravidian family- Kannada people and Telugu people)

But at any rate, if the awesome ashmound creators and active domesticators of the quartet turn out to be non-Dravidian pre-Dravidians, that would be infinitely more awesome for me personally; I will immensely cherish the pure Indian heritage associated with what might be one of the world's successful original centers of domestication (which it of course might be, even if the Dravidian speakers were involved, because the Dravidian speakers are generally considered to have come only with the cows in the scheme that I adhere to currently- the rest of the work being done in the Deccan only). (I will also personally relish the frustrations of the Dravidian extremists when they come to realise that Dravidian speakers were the ones who gave in completely to the massive flood that is the Southern Neolithic- excepting the language- losing all of their supposed IVC heritage long ago; if they turn out to be some obscure nameless hill tribe from Central Asia, it's all the way better for me lol. But all that joked about, note that it is not even necessary to view things in the above us vs. them manner. The fact that the potential Dravidian-migrants completely assimilated themselves into the Southern Neolithic, without retaining a bit of their original IVC culture or Iranian culture or whatever they had, shows that any language shift mechanisms must have been quite complicated- while the entire idea somehow just does not fit in with the scheme, I'm sure the language shift could not have involved any violent imposition of language on the civilisationally quite advanced Southern Neolithic people. It may perhaps have been like the language shift to Indo-Aryan in north India, I'm going by the currently accepted migration theory for IA languages, but the Southern Neolithic does not appear to show any signs of post-collapse depression which the north India of that time may have shown. But of course, anything and everything is possible. In how many cases don't we see relatively barbarian tribes coming out of nowhere and effecting language shift in more advanced peoples? It's all possible. That said, I agree it would be more interesting if it's indeed the Late Harappan people of Gujarat, etc. who came via Deccan Chalcolithic cultures as migrants into Southern Neolithic and somehow made the natives language-shift to Dravidian. It shows that they have done one thing for their own good finally in the grand scheme of things lol. The southern Deccan was more or less like a place where they started their lives afresh again. But take my word for it, it is immensely unlikely for Dravidian languages to have held any huge political importance in the Harappan Civilisation, even if they were present there at the time. Most of it's again instinctual so it does not carry any logical power whatsoever but still- the fact that the Dravidian languages exist in the world now somehow makes me feel that they might not have been the language (more like lingua-franca, as it is very likely IVC could have included many people speaking many different languages) associated with such a magnificent civilisation of the entire old world- the IVC appears to have been extremely idealistic- in my mind, it looked like it possessed some sort of suicidal idealism (edit: of course, I used this majorly to refer to the seemingly deliberate (perhaps to me only) deurbanisation that happened in the IVC after 1900 BC; but of course, simpler reasons like drought may in fact have been the major cause for deurbanisation). But again, all the above's just some sentimental nonsense. Don't take it seriously of course lol.)

parasar
10-16-2017, 02:20 PM
...

I am a lactase persistent south Indian ...

Furthermore, haplo- type analyses indicate that the -13910*T allele in India is identical by descent to that found in Europe and western Asia, whereas examination of the pattern of haplotype block structure in the context of the archaeological history of herding across this intercontinental region suggests that the -13910*T allele was introduced to India from the west.

Geography is a significant predictor of -13910*T allele frequency, and consistent with other genomic loci, its distribution in India follows a general northwest to southeast declining pattern, although frequencies among certain neighboring populations vary substantially. We confirm that the mutation is identical by descent to the European allele and is associated with the same .1 Mb extended haplotype in both populations.

I'm assuming that you are -13910*T, i.e. derived at SNP rs4988235.

I was wondering what the frequency of the derived allele among Nairs vis a vis other populations in the South - Nambuthiris, Panniyar, Havig, Bunt etc.
In the north the derived allele peaks in the Haryana region - the Ror of Haryana 48.9% - and is in the 30% range in the Indo-Gangetic plain. The Kalash are an exception and only have the ancestral version.

Frequency (%) for
Population Group (Region and/or Country) No. of Chromosomes −13910T
European American 48 77.2
African American 100 14.0
East Asian 35 0
Yoruba (Nigeria) 50 0
Bantu Northeast (Kenya) 24 0
San (Namibia) 14 0
Bantu (South Africa) 16 0
Mozabite (Mzab, Algeria) 60 21.7
Bedouin (Negev, Israel) 98 3.1
Druze (Carmel, Israel) 96 2.1
Palestinian (Central Israel) 102 3.9
Brahui (Pakistan) 50 34.0
Balochi (Pakistan) 50 36.0
Hazara (Pakistan) 50 8.0
Makrani (Pakistan) 50 34.0
Sindhi (Pakistan) 50 32.0
Pathan (Pakistan) 50 30.0
Kalash (Pakistan) 50 0
Burusho (Pakistan) 50 10.0
Han (China) 90 0
Tujia (China) 20 0
Yizu (China) 20 0
Miaozu (China) 20 0
Oroqen (China) 20 0
Daur (China) 20 5.0
Mongola (China) 20 10.0
Hezhen (China) 20 0
Xibo (China) 18 0
Uygur (China) 20 5.0
Dai (China) 20 0
Lahu (China) 20 0
She (China) 20 0
Naxi (China) 20 0
Tu (China) 20 0 0
Yakut (Siberia) 50 6.0
Japanese (Japan) 62 0
Cambodian (Cambodia) 22 0
Papuan (New Guinea) 34 0
Melanesiana (Bougainville) 44 0
French (France) 58 43.1
French Basque (France) 48 66.7
Sardinian (Italy) 56 7.1
Tuscan (Italy) 16 6.3
North Italian (Bergamo, Italy) 28 35.7
Orcadian (Orkney Islands) 32 68.8
Adygei (Russian Caucasus) 34 11.8
Russian (Russia) 50 24.0
Swedish and Finnish (Scandinavia) 360 81.5
Pima (Mexico) 50 0
Maya (Mexico) 50 2.0
Colombian (Colombia) 26 0
Karitiana (Brazil) 48 0
Surui (Brazil) 42 0

"Lactase persistence (LP) in Europeans (caused by the SNP rs4988235 1) is probably the strongest known signal of selection in the entire human genome ... remarkably, the lactase persistence allele in India is the same as the European allele ...

I think we can’t yet confidently say from imputed data whether or not the allele was present in early Bronze Age steppe populations like the Yamnaya ...

Here’s my best guess as to the history of this allele: It appeared some time before 2500 BCE, either on the Steppe (if you believe the imputation results), or in Central Europe (if you don’t), or perhaps in some other part of Europe (if you believe the all the ancient DNA results). Then, for some reason, it’s very strongly selected, perhaps s≈0.1s≈0.1, maybe only locally, maybe only for a short period of time but enough to drive it to a frequency greater than 0.1%. Selection relaxes in the Bronze age but it still drives to high frequency, at least in Northern Europe. It may even have stopped being selected at all. This is actually rather consistent with the Itan et al. result, and it seems plausible to me that the allele first appeared in Central Europe, was spread around Europe by the LBK, before being introduced to the steppe later by migration from Europe."
1. Also known as C/T(-13910).
http://mathii.github.io/review/2015/06/14/lactase-persistence-and-ancient-dna

To the above I would add that the derived allele is also potentially present in Iran Neolithic and in French WHG.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 04:10 PM
With respect to the origins of Nairs and their distinctive customs, there is this blogpost (http://historicalleys.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-origin-of-nairs.html) that painstakingly lists all the wild and divergent hypotheses (some of them obviously bogus like Mongolian connections) regarding the origins of Nairs. Apparently there have been connections in the scholarly literature before, of the Nairs with Scythian Sakas of the 200 BC, with the Tibeto-Burman speaking Newars of Nepal (!), the Arattavahikas of the Mahabharata who are alluded to here by Parasar garu in a post before, who may have migrated to Tulu Nadu and Kerala after the invasion of Darius (518-516 BC) (if the hypothesis has any likelihood to have been true of course), as per the blog author.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 05:00 PM
Kurd used to do IBS runs to find connections with ancient populations. Sikh Jatts and I had high similarity with scythians. Shame he stopped doing them, would have been interesting to run your data on them.

parasar
10-16-2017, 07:32 PM
With respect to the origins of Nairs and their distinctive customs, there is this blogpost (http://historicalleys.blogspot.com/2009/08/on-origin-of-nairs.html) that painstakingly lists all the wild and divergent hypotheses (some of them obviously bogus like Mongolian connections) regarding the origins of Nairs. Apparently there have been connections in the scholarly literature before, of the Nairs with Scythian Sakas of the 200 BC, with the Tibeto-Burman speaking Newars of Nepal (!), the Arattavahikas of the Mahabharata who are alluded to here by Parasar garu in a post before, who may have migrated to Tulu Nadu and Kerala after the invasion of Darius (518-516 BC) (if the hypothesis has any likelihood to have been true of course), as per the blog author.

I'm inclined to be partial to this explanation: "The more rational Keralolpathi states that they came in together with the namboothriis from the North."

We are Trihotras or those performing half the duties of brahmans. As per tradition, the other duties had to be abandoned once land was accepted from Parashuram, so we are also referred to as Parashuram Brahmans. Nambuthiris, GSBs and Chitpavans also stake the claim of being Parashuram Brahmans.

In Kerala these were referred to as aardha-brahmanar per the Kerala-Utpatti. "The origin of the name of Arddha-Bramhanar is because they received Land from Sri-Parasu-Rama, one half of their Brahminhood was diminished"

The historical marker I would say would be the appearance of Durga in the south. Parashuram reportedly established many images of Durga on the sea shore per the Kerala-Utpatti.

Durga/Nana was a Shak Kushan goddess who I believe was brought to Kerala in the Gupta period.
Nana Durga:
"Vettikkara Nana Durga Navagraha Temple" https://www.facebook.com/vettikkaratemple/
"Perumbi Nana Durga Temple" https://www.facebook.com/perumbi.sreenanadurga
Manjukulangara Bhagavathy (Nana Durga) Temple "The presiding deity of this temple is goddess durga in the form of "nana durga"" http://www.thekeralatemples.com/templeinfo/bhagavathy/manjukulangara_bhagavathy.htm

Under this scenario the Rakhigarhi folk should be close to Nairs, but without the Steppe element the Nairs are showing. Eurogenes blog reports the paper should be out - "Very soon, perhaps even this year"

bmoney
10-16-2017, 07:52 PM
I'm inclined to be partial to this explanation: "The more rational Keralolpathi states that they came in together with the namboothriis from the North."

We are Trihotras or those performing half the duties of brahmans. As per tradition, the other duties had to be abandoned once land was accepted from Parashuram, so we are also referred to as Parashuram Brahmans. Nambuthiris, GSBs and Chitpavans also stake the claim of being Parashuram Brahmans.

In Kerala these were referred to as aardha-brahmanar per the Kerala-Utpatti. "The origin of the name of Arddha-Bramhanar is because they received Land from Sri-Parasu-Rama, one half of their Brahminhood was diminished"

The historical marker I would say would be the appearance of Durga in the south. Parashuram reportedly established many images of Durga on the sea shore per the Kerala-Utpatti.

Durga/Nana was a Shak Kushan goddess who I believe was brought to Kerala in the Gupta period.
Nana Durga:
"Vettikkara Nana Durga Navagraha Temple" https://www.facebook.com/vettikkaratemple/
"Perumbi Nana Durga Temple" https://www.facebook.com/perumbi.sreenanadurga
Manjukulangara Bhagavathy (Nana Durga) Temple "The presiding deity of this temple is goddess durga in the form of "nana durga"" http://www.thekeralatemples.com/templeinfo/bhagavathy/manjukulangara_bhagavathy.htm

Under this scenario the Rakhigarhi folk should be close to Nairs, but without the Steppe element the Nairs are showing. Eurogenes blog reports the paper should be out - "Very soon, perhaps even this year"

Would make sense, except Nairs/Nayars worship snakes/Nag a Dravidian custom. This is very very different and heretical to Nambudiri Brahmins, who have preserved the most historical Srauta Vedic traditions, even if they are genetically more mixed with ASI than North Indian Brahmins.

Nambudiris are so strict with Vedic tradition that they get 'polluted' from the presence of Tamil Brahmins. I don't see how Nayars and Brahmins would be chums from this behaviour.

Also, Nayars were independent landlords in their own right. They started taking shit from Brahmins being called Sudra as they wouldn't be recognised in the caste system, kind of like Jatts and Gujjars. Highly suggestive of an invading Brahmin power play which the Brahmins largely won, even changing the language to include a lot of Sanskrit loan words. Some Nair clans paid ridiculous sums of money and land to be elevated officially to Kshatriya and get the official upanayanam thread ceremony performed on them, after which they called themselves Varma.

Only the northernmost Nair clans were relatively unscathed and maintained their land holdings as Brahmin settlements were mostly in central Kerala.

Rakhigarhi would be mostly Iran_Neolithic imo, maybe the ancestors to Kush and I as well as anyone who scores high in Iran_N

In case anyones interested, worship of snakes is also found in some Hindu Jat clans in North/Central India but is traceable to pre Indo-Aryan traditions IMO as it is not found in Persian Avesta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagavanshi

List of Nag Jat clans

https://www.jatland.com/home/Nagavansh

bmoney
10-16-2017, 07:56 PM
Kurd used to do IBS runs to find connections with ancient populations. Sikh Jatts and I had high similarity with scythians. Shame he stopped doing them, would have been interesting to run your data on them.

Jats have definitely been linked to Scythians.

Kurd still does on Geneplaza. Would be interesting to see your results, its called the K12 Ancient Admixture Calc.

I don't think it is as accurate as K9ASI as it attributes a lot of Iran_N to the steppe. Maybe the Iran_N people had ancient steppe admixture, who knows

bmoney
10-16-2017, 07:59 PM
I'm assuming that you are -13910*T, i.e. derived at SNP rs4988235.To the above I would add that the derived allele is also potentially present in Iran Neolithic and in French WHG.

Would you know how I test for this allele? Also why is it not more likely that the allele was present in the IVC than in the mostly EHG Indo-Aryans.

Modern ANE like populations in Siberia (75% of EHG) do not have lactase persistence I believe

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 08:09 PM
Jats have definitely been linked to Scythians.

Kurd still does on Geneplaza, run it and post your results. Would be interesting to see your results, its called the K12 Ancient Admixture Calc.

I don't think it is as accurate as K9ASI as it attributes a lot of Iran_N to the steppe. Maybe the Iran_N people had ancient steppe admixture, who knows

Apparently Tarkhans (My community) has been linked to Scythians, Sakas to be exact as well. Here are my K12 results, they are almost identical to Sapporo. We both hail from same region in punjab. He's a jatt and I'm Tarkhan.

steppe cultures - 38.1%
karasuk-e scythian (2000-3000 years) - 20.2%
andronovo-srubnaya (3000-4000 years) - 8.4%
yamnaya-afanasievo-poltavka (4000-5000 years) - 9.5%

ancient farmers - 35.0%
west european farmers (4000-5000 years) - 0.0%
levant (4000-8000 years) - 5.1%
neolithic-chalcolithic iran-chg (5000-12000 years) - 15.6%
east european farmers (5000-8000 years) - 14.3%

southeast Eurasian - 21.3%

eastern non africans (modern) - 3.5%

western european & scandinavian hunter gatherers (4000-5000 years) - 1.0%

african - 1.0%
east african (modern) - 0.5%
west african (modern) - 0.5%




can you post your results?

parasar
10-16-2017, 08:12 PM
Would you know how I test for this allele? Also why is it not more likely that the allele was present in the IVC than in the mostly EHG Indo-Aryans.

Modern ANE like populations in Siberia (75% of EHG) do not have lactase persistence I believe

If you have tested with 23andme you could check for rs4988235.

There are two issues that I see with rs4988235 - one that it is IBD for Europeans and South Asians showing common ancestry at that locus, and second that it is strongly selected for in some populations and has run up numbers recently.

It could have been present in the Indus Valley as it was observed in Neolithic Iran.

I have not yet seen good evidence that IVC was not Aryan, only excellent related evidence that it did not have R1a1-Z93. I'm not sure whether Z93 is a marker for an Aryan influx or a Scythian one.

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 08:16 PM
Jats have definitely been linked to Scythians.

Kurd still does on Geneplaza. Would be interesting to see your results, its called the K12 Ancient Admixture Calc.

I don't think it is as accurate as K9ASI as it attributes a lot of Iran_N to the steppe. Maybe the Iran_N people had ancient steppe admixture, who knows

FWIW, Kurd believes the methodology he employed in forming the K12 calculator is far more accurate than any of his previous calculators. So much so, that he has asked Gedmatch to remove most of his calculators from the site. Iran_N is underestimated in the K12 because it's a haploid genome and most of his other references are diploid. He is currently working on a diploid Iran_N genome and will probably release a K13.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 08:38 PM
But at any rate, if the awesome ashmound creators and active domesticators of the quartet turn out to be non-Dravidian pre-Dravidians, that would be infinitely more awesome for me personally

Could you break this down in layman's terms:

Southern Neolithic culture, was it a successor to the IVC or independent ASI-only culture?


"The fact that the potential Dravidian-migrants completely assimilated themselves into the Southern Neolithic, without retaining a bit of their original IVC culture or Iranian culture or whatever they had, shows that any language shift mechanisms must have been quite complicated- while the entire idea somehow just does not fit in with the scheme,"

I thought they did retain IVC culture with the cow worship culture which has survived throughout India, and the maternal motifs seen in the IVC (unless this is actually ASI related).


In how many cases don't we see relatively barbarian tribes coming out of nowhere and effecting language shift in more advanced peoples?

True dat. Mongoloid Turkic people wiping out Iranian Central Asian languages like Sogdian, Indo-Europeans conquering Europe until only Basque and Finno-Ugric languages remain. Having said that, if you have better weapons, you will win. Thats just how the world works.


That said, I agree it would be more interesting if it's indeed the Late Harappan people of Gujarat, etc. who came via Deccan Chalcolithic cultures as migrants into Southern Neolithic and somehow made the natives language-shift to Dravidian.

This makes sense for me, because upper caste modern Dravidian people have low genetic distance with modern Gujaratis


But take my word for it, it is immensely unlikely for Dravidian languages to have held any huge political importance in the Harappan Civilisation, even if they were present there at the time. Most of it's again instinctual so it does not carry any logical power whatsoever but still- the fact that the Dravidian languages exist in the world now somehow makes me feel that they might not have been the language (more like lingua-franca, as it is very likely IVC could have included many people speaking many different languages) associated with such a magnificent civilisation of the entire old world

Could be right, could be Munda languages as Witzel alluded to, or could be Burushaski or Nuristani predecessors being the official IVC language. Having said that Dravidian languages in south India have low time depth and low variation, suggesting that the origin of the language group was somewhere else.

Also for me Haplogroup J and Ls presence in Baluchistan/Sindh and south India suggests a Dravidian link

bmoney
10-16-2017, 08:42 PM
FWIW, Kurd believes the methodology he employed in forming the K12 calculator is far more accurate than any of his previous calculators. So much so, that he has asked Gedmatch to remove most of his calculators from the site. Iran_N is underestimated in the K12 because it's a haploid genome and most of his other references are diploid. He is currently working on a diploid Iran_N genome and will probably release a K13.

Ahh ok, What's the difference between haploid and diploid?

bmoney
10-16-2017, 08:48 PM
Apparently Tarkhans (My community) has been linked to Scythians, Sakas to be exact as well. Here are my K12 results, they are almost identical to Sapporo. We both hail from same region in punjab. He's a jatt and I'm Tarkhan.

steppe cultures - 38.1%
karasuk-e scythian (2000-3000 years) - 20.2%
andronovo-srubnaya (3000-4000 years) - 8.4%
yamnaya-afanasievo-poltavka (4000-5000 years) - 9.5%

ancient farmers - 35.0%
west european farmers (4000-5000 years) - 0.0%
levant (4000-8000 years) - 5.1%
neolithic-chalcolithic iran-chg (5000-12000 years) - 15.6%
east european farmers (5000-8000 years) - 14.3%

southeast Eurasian - 21.3%

eastern non africans (modern) - 3.5%

western european & scandinavian hunter gatherers (4000-5000 years) - 1.0%

african - 1.0%
east african (modern) - 0.5%
west african (modern) - 0.5%




can you post your results?

I know the Tarkhan/Ramgarhias haha. Both my best friend (guy) and my fiancé are from that community. Which part of Punjab are you from?

Very mixed bunch IMO, some look very Iranic (Jatt look) and some look Pahari/Kashmiri with low facial hair and Indo-Aryan small features. Also a small amount look quite dark, but I have also seen this in Jatts


STEPPE CULTURES34.3%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)13.2%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)6.1%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)14.9%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN32.5%

ANCIENT FARMERS23.8%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.5%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)19.3%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)0.0%

AFRICAN4.3%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)0.3%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)4.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)2.7%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)2.4%

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 09:03 PM
Added bmoney to the spreadsheet. Sorted South Asians and other regional ethnic groups by Karasuk E Scythian.







W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN
ENA


Kurd-SE
12.56
5.63
16.4
7.8
26.46
6.66
9.55
0
13.22
0.62
0
1.11


Turkish
17.35
7.4
12.27
22.79
25.54
0
4.63
0
5.78
3.92
0
0.31


khana (mGM - balq)
0
3.5
15.1
16.6
25.3
8.5
11.7
1.3
17.8
0
0
0.2


khana Sister - .hanif
0
4.8
15.6
18.3
25.2
2.8
12.4
0
18
0
1
2.1


mAunt - Farida
0
4.9
14.7
9
22.6
11.7
11.1
0
23.8
0
2.2
0


khana Brother
0
5.9
15.8
17.7
21.6
1.9
14.1
0
19
2.7
0
1.2


Baloch; Iran
1.16
6.81
21.85
18.31
21.15
8.22
9.93
0
2.61
8.74
0
2.21


heksindhi [Sindhi]
7.2
6.7
20.5
5.7
21.1
3.4
12.4
1.2
15.8
5.3
0
0.7


Sapporo [Punjabi; Jatt]
0
5.1
17.8
11.9
20.3
7
12.9
0.1
20.3
1.3
2
1.4


MonkeyDLuffy [Punjabi; Tarkhan]
0
5.1
15.6
14.3
20.2
8.4
9.5
1
21.3
0.5
0.5
3.5


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8
3.8


khanabadoshi
0
4.9
18
15.9
19.5
4.1
13
0
22.6
0.9
0
1.1


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0
4.9
15.7
12.3
18.8
10.4
10.1
0
22.9
2.1
0
2.8


mGM - Brother [Kho/Uzbek]
0
3.6
16.7
11.1
18.1
12.1
9.7
3.3
24.6
0.2
0
0.6


Mohmand Agency [Pashtun]
9.8
4.6
18.3
7.4
17.6
12.1
11.6
0.6
16.8
1.1
0
0.2


Ruhka [Tajik/Pashtun]
1.71
3.24
17.99
18.1
16.87
12.7
10.34
2.95
13.57
0
1.11
1.42


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0
2.6


mGFSister - Sadia
0
5.9
16.4
14.6
15.1
4.3
11.6
0.1
25.7
3.9
0
2.4


Reza [Bengali]
1.67
3.11
12.75
0.99
14.37
2.94
7.65
4.06
48.16
2.32
0
1.97


Konya
16
6.3
13.6
30.1
14.3
3.3
7.8
0
5.2
3.1
0
0.4


[B]bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4
2.7


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
1.9
6
17.1
7.9
13
13.4
10.9
4.1
22.1
2.1
0.4
1.2


noman [Chauhan]
7.7
5.5
17.7
2.9
12.3
14.3
12
0
23.8
1.7
0
2.2


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5
3.8


pUncle - Jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0
5
17.4
16.6
10.9
6.9
11.8
1.2
23.3
3.7
0
3.2


XooR [Turkish Laz]
19.6
7.2
21.3
30.4
10.4
3.5
7.2
0
0
0.5
0
0


Saba123 [Iran; Qashqai/Bakhtiari]
3.8
4.8
24.5
31.5
10
1.1
11.2
0
6
7.1
0
0


Turkish [Kayseri 23271]
17.06
6.73
17.35
30.42
9.69
6.78
8.56
0
2.42
0.73
0
0.28


Kurd; North Iraq 1
16.87
8.43
15.16
23.52
9.61
9.32
7.61
0
6.85
0
2.34
0.28


Punjabi [Rajput]
0.18
4.35
17.27
11.86
9.16
9.15
11.43
3.19
27.14
2.79
0
3.48


Saba123 (Aunt) (Qashqai)
0
4.8
21
36.6
8.9
10.7
7.4
0
4.1
5.8
0
0.7


Kurd; North Iraq 2 [Feyli]
13.83
6.94
14.76
27.77
8.88
11.06
7.09
0
5.7
3.8
0
0.16


Bahawalpur - Cousin [Leghari]
0
5.1
17.8
16.8
8.1
9.5
12.8
1.6
23.2
3.2
0
1.9


Abd.H [Syrian]
21.5
7.9
16.8
29
7.5
3.3
4.5
0
1.9
7
0
0.6


JFWinstone (Mother)
12.2
3.3
3.5
8.8
7.4
8
2.5
9.3
28.1
2.7
13.6
0.5


Jesus [Iran; SW]
13.18
10.25
17.92
22.38
6.85
5.56
5.26
0
8.13
6.53
2.29
1.66


Reza Mother
0.1
3.7
13
6.7
6
9.3
7
0.8
47.7
2
0
3.7


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0
5.2


Kurd; North Iraq 3 [Kurmanji]
1.87
7.52
21.13
34.13
5.13
10.23
9.75
0
6.44
0
2.8
1


Zephyrous [Assyrian]
17.85
12.32
19.91
31.16
3.76
7.5
1.99
0
1.87
3.48
0
0.16


Zayd [Bengali]
0
5.6
10.3
7.3
0.1
8.7
9.6
2.6
49.9
1.2
0
4.8


ssamlal [Indo-Trinidadian]
3.6
5.3
12.3
7.2
0
9
10.5
0
46.9
1.7
0
3.4


Copt 1 [Egypt]
22.55
14.05
11.47
34.01
0
0
0
0
2.43
15.48
0
0

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 09:03 PM
I know the Tarkhan/Ramgarhias haha. Both my best friend (guy) and my fiancé are from that community. Which part of Punjab are you from?

Very mixed bunch IMO, some look very Iranic (Jatt look) and some look Pahari/Kashmiri with low facial hair and Indo-Aryan small features. Also a small amount look quite dark, but I have also seen this in Jatts


STEPPE CULTURES34.3%
KARASUK-E SCYTHIAN (2000-3000 years)13.2%
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA (3000-4000 years)6.1%
YAMNAYA-AFANASIEVO-POLTAVKA (4000-5000 years)14.9%

SOUTHEAST EURASIAN32.5%

ANCIENT FARMERS23.8%
WEST EUROPEAN FARMERS (4000-5000 years)0.0%
LEVANT (4000-8000 years)4.5%
NEOLITHIC-CHALCOLITHIC IRAN-CHG (5000-12000 years)19.3%
EAST EUROPEAN FARMERS (5000-8000 years)0.0%

AFRICAN4.3%
EAST AFRICAN (modern)0.3%
WEST AFRICAN (modern)4.0%

EASTERN NON AFRICANS (modern)2.7%

WESTERN EUROPEAN & SCANDINAVIAN HUNTER GATHERERS (4000-5000 years)2.4%

Nice! Yea there are multiple origins theory for us, Hindu tarkhans claim Brahmin origins, which I can see. Surprisingly Sikh Tarkhans/Ramgarhias look very Punjabi kind while the Hindu Tarkhans have very Brahmin/soft features kind of look. So probably during rise of sikhism there was some mixing happened.

I hail from Ropar/Anandpur sahib region.

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 09:07 PM
Same list, sorted by N-ChL Iran - CHG:






W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN
ENA


Saba123 [Iran; Qashqai/Bakhtiari]
3.8
4.8
24.5
31.5
10
1.1
11.2
0
6
7.1
0
0


Baloch; Iran
1.16
6.81
21.85
18.31
21.15
8.22
9.93
0
2.61
8.74
0
2.21


XooR [Turkish Laz]
19.6
7.2
21.3
30.4
10.4
3.5
7.2
0
0
0.5
0
0


Kurd; North Iraq 3 [Kurmanji]
1.87
7.52
21.13
34.13
5.13
10.23
9.75
0
6.44
0
2.8
1


Saba123 (Aunt) (Qashqai)
0
4.8
21
36.6
8.9
10.7
7.4
0
4.1
5.8
0
0.7


heksindhi [Sindhi]
7.2
6.7
20.5
5.7
21.1
3.4
12.4
1.2
15.8
5.3
0
0.7


Zephyrous [Assyrian]
17.85
12.32
19.91
31.16
3.76
7.5
1.99
0
1.87
3.48
0
0.16


bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4
2.7


Mohmand Agency [Pashtun]
9.8
4.6
18.3
7.4
17.6
12.1
11.6
0.6
16.8
1.1
0
0.2


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0
5.2


khanabadoshi
0
4.9
18
15.9
19.5
4.1
13
0
22.6
0.9
0
1.1


Ruhka [Tajik/Pashtun]
1.71
3.24
17.99
18.1
16.87
12.7
10.34
2.95
13.57
0
1.11
1.42


Jesus [Iran; SW]
13.18
10.25
17.92
22.38
6.85
5.56
5.26
0
8.13
6.53
2.29
1.66


Sapporo [Punjabi; Jatt]
0
5.1
17.8
11.9
20.3
7
12.9
0.1
20.3
1.3
2
1.4


Bahawalpur - Cousin [Leghari]
0
5.1
17.8
16.8
8.1
9.5
12.8
1.6
23.2
3.2
0
1.9


noman [Chauhan]
7.7
5.5
17.7
2.9
12.3
14.3
12
0
23.8
1.7
0
2.2


pUncle - Jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0
5
17.4
16.6
10.9
6.9
11.8
1.2
23.3
3.7
0
3.2


Turkish [Kayseri 23271]
17.06
6.73
17.35
30.42
9.69
6.78
8.56
0
2.42
0.73
0
0.28


Punjabi [Rajput]
0.18
4.35
17.27
11.86
9.16
9.15
11.43
3.19
27.14
2.79
0
3.48


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
1.9
6
17.1
7.9
13
13.4
10.9
4.1
22.1
2.1
0.4
1.2


Abd.H [Syrian]
21.5
7.9
16.8
29
7.5
3.3
4.5
0
1.9
7
0
0.6


mGM - Brother [Kho/Uzbek]
0
3.6
16.7
11.1
18.1
12.1
9.7
3.3
24.6
0.2
0
0.6


Kurd-SE
12.56
5.63
16.4
7.8
26.46
6.66
9.55
0
13.22
0.62
0
1.11


mGFSister - Sadia
0
5.9
16.4
14.6
15.1
4.3
11.6
0.1
25.7
3.9
0
2.4


khana Brother
0
5.9
15.8
17.7
21.6
1.9
14.1
0
19
2.7
0
1.2


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0
4.9
15.7
12.3
18.8
10.4
10.1
0
22.9
2.1
0
2.8


khana Sister - .hanif
0
4.8
15.6
18.3
25.2
2.8
12.4
0
18
0
1
2.1


MonkeyDLuffy [Punjabi; Tarkhan]
0
5.1
15.6
14.3
20.2
8.4
9.5
1
21.3
0.5
0.5
3.5


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0
2.6


Kurd; North Iraq 1
16.87
8.43
15.16
23.52
9.61
9.32
7.61
0
6.85
0
2.34
0.28


khana (mGM - balq)
0
3.5
15.1
16.6
25.3
8.5
11.7
1.3
17.8
0
0
0.2


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5
3.8


Kurd; North Iraq 2 [Feyli]
13.83
6.94
14.76
27.77
8.88
11.06
7.09
0
5.7
3.8
0
0.16


mAunt - Farida
0
4.9
14.7
9
22.6
11.7
11.1
0
23.8
0
2.2
0


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8
3.8


Konya
16
6.3
13.6
30.1
14.3
3.3
7.8
0
5.2
3.1
0
0.4


Reza Mother
0.1
3.7
13
6.7
6
9.3
7
0.8
47.7
2
0
3.7


Reza [Bengali]
1.67
3.11
12.75
0.99
14.37
2.94
7.65
4.06
48.16
2.32
0
1.97


ssamlal [Indo-Trinidadian]
3.6
5.3
12.3
7.2
0
9
10.5
0
46.9
1.7
0
3.4


Turkish [Balikesir 16653]
17.35
7.4
12.27
22.79
25.54
0
4.63
0
5.78
3.92
0
0.31


Copt 1 [Egypt]
22.55
14.05
11.47
34.01
0
0
0
0
2.43
15.48
0
0


Zayd [Bengali]
0
5.6
10.3
7.3
0.1
8.7
9.6
2.6
49.9
1.2
0
4.8


JFWinstone (Mother)
12.2
3.3
3.5
8.8
7.4
8
2.5
9.3
28.1
2.7
13.6
0.5

anthroin
10-16-2017, 09:08 PM
I'm inclined to be partial to this explanation: "The more rational Keralolpathi states that they came in together with the namboothriis from the North."

We are Trihotras or those performing half the duties of brahmans. As per tradition, the other duties had to be abandoned once land was accepted from Parashuram, so we are also referred to as Parashuram Brahmans. Nambuthiris, GSBs and Chitpavans also stake the claim of being Parashuram Brahmans.

In Kerala these were referred to as aardha-brahmanar per the Kerala-Utpatti. "The origin of the name of Arddha-Bramhanar is because they received Land from Sri-Parasu-Rama, one half of their Brahminhood was diminished"

The historical marker I would say would be the appearance of Durga in the south. Parashuram reportedly established many images of Durga on the sea shore per the Kerala-Utpatti.

Durga/Nana was a Shak Kushan goddess who I believe was brought to Kerala in the Gupta period.
Nana Durga:
"Vettikkara Nana Durga Navagraha Temple" https://www.facebook.com/vettikkaratemple/
"Perumbi Nana Durga Temple" https://www.facebook.com/perumbi.sreenanadurga
Manjukulangara Bhagavathy (Nana Durga) Temple "The presiding deity of this temple is goddess durga in the form of "nana durga"" http://www.thekeralatemples.com/templeinfo/bhagavathy/manjukulangara_bhagavathy.htm

Under this scenario the Rakhigarhi folk should be close to Nairs, but without the Steppe element the Nairs are showing. Eurogenes blog reports the paper should be out - "Very soon, perhaps even this year"

So a connection with the Brahmins is also talked about earlier in the literature (but it is still unbelievable, considering the totally non-north-Indian-appearing customs of Nairs (the Ezhavas with their Buddhist affinities appear more north Indian in culture to me than Nairs- actually most modern south Indians appear more north Indian in culture to me personally when compared to groups like Nairs, with the normal Vishnu/Shiva/Devi worship being major as against the relatively less frequent nAgapUjAs and others). It appears complete apologies to the user pegasus are in order from my side. Sorry again pegasus garu.

bmoney
10-16-2017, 09:09 PM
Nice! Yea there are multiple origins theory for us, Hindu tarkhans claim Brahmin origins, which I can see. Surprisingly Sikh Tarkhans/Ramgarhias look very Punjabi kind while the Hindu Tarkhans have very Brahmin/soft features kind of look. So probably during rise of sikhism there was some mixing happened.

I hail from Ropar/Anandpur sahib region.

I've never seen a Hindu Ramgarhia, have only seen Sikhs. My fiances family is half Nawanshahr/half Ludhiana

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 09:12 PM
I've never seen a Hindu Ramgarhia, have only seen Sikhs. My fiances family is half Nawanshahr/half Ludhiana

Hindu and muslim Tarkhans call themselves "tarkhans". Sikh Tarkhans use Ramgarhia.

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 09:23 PM
For ease of comparison: Kush [Telegu Reddy], Varun R [Tamil Brahmin], Saraswat Brahmin + Chamar siblings, and yourself.







W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN


bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8






The W Euro Farmer scores is something consistent with the Brahmins/Pashtuns/certain populations vs the rest of the South Asians in this calculator. Most everyone else scores 0. It's an interesting pattern:



Mohmand Agency [Pashtun]
9.8


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2


noman [Chauhan]
7.7


heksindhi [Sindhi]
7.2


Saba123 [Iran; Qashqai/Bakhtiari]
3.8


ssamlal [Indo-Trinidadian]
3.6


serena297 Brother
2.6


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
1.9


Kurd; North Iraq 3 [Kurmanji]
1.87


Ruhka [Tajik/Pashtun]
1.71


Reza [Bengali]
1.67


Baloch; Iran
1.16


Punjabi [Rajput]
0.18


Reza Mother
0.1


Zayd [Bengali]
0


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0


bmoney
0


mGFSister - Sadia
0


mGM - Brother [Kho/Uzbek]
0


mAunt - Farida
0


pUncle - Jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0


Bahawalpur - Cousin [Leghari]
0


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0


khanabadoshi
0


MonkeyDLuffy [Punjabi; Tarkhan]
0


Sapporo [Punjabi; Jatt]
0


khana Brother
0


khana Sister - .hanif
0


khana (mGM - balq)
0


Saba123 (Aunt) (Qashqai)
0

bmoney
10-16-2017, 09:29 PM
Hindu and muslim Tarkhans call themselves "tarkhans". Sikh Tarkhans use Ramgarhia.

After the Misl leader right. It's interesting how Sikh Ramgarhias have a higher caste position than Hindus or Muslims.

What I meant was I have never seen Hindu or Muslim Tarkhans, most people from that community here in Oz would be Sikhs

pnb123
10-16-2017, 09:31 PM
[QUOTE=parasar;297404]For Chitwan:
17 out of the 25 samples were R1a1 (initially reported as 18/26 or 69.2% in the source paper) and of these 17, 16 were L657+ (M780+) and one Z93+Z94+Z95+ M780-, Z2125- per Underhill 2014.

For Tharu:
14 out of 170 samples were R1a1 and all 14 were L657+(M780+).

Despite 30/31 being L657, the STR age was relatively deep:

Nepal Hindu 2857
Nepal Tharu 4167 (I would discount the deep age in the Tharu as it is likely a delta STR distribution)
(for comparison: 30 European Roma R1a1 samples gave an age of 500 years)


So, they did not break up the results by ethnic groups. I think both Pahari and Madheshi Hindus were included in the research. From what I've seen in 23andme, majority of my Nepali relatives had R1a1a haplogroup, but 23andme doesn't show specifically which type is it, I'm also R1a1a, but I don't know if it's L657+ or Z93+. I guess L657+ is the oldest one & the Z93+ came with later Indo-Aryans, if I'm not wrong? What's your y-dna type btw ?

bmoney
10-16-2017, 09:32 PM
The W Euro Farmer scores is something consistent with the Brahmins/Pashtuns/certain populations vs the rest of the South Asians in this calculator. Most everyone else scores 0. It's an interesting pattern:

Very interesting, could be a Brahmin/Indo-Aryan marker? Brahmin castes are known to have small founder populations

pnb123
10-16-2017, 09:33 PM
For ease of comparison: Kush [Telegu Reddy], Varun R [Tamil Brahmin], Saraswat Brahmin + Chamar siblings, and yourself.







W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN


bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8






The W Euro Farmer scores is something consistent with the Brahmins/Pashtuns/certain populations vs the rest of the South Asians in this calculator. Most everyone else scores 0. It's an interesting pattern:



Mohmand Agency [Pashtun]
9.8


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2


noman [Chauhan]
7.7


heksindhi [Sindhi]
7.2


Saba123 [Iran; Qashqai/Bakhtiari]
3.8


ssamlal [Indo-Trinidadian]
3.6


serena297 Brother
2.6


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
1.9


Kurd; North Iraq 3 [Kurmanji]
1.87


Ruhka [Tajik/Pashtun]
1.71


Reza [Bengali]
1.67


Baloch; Iran
1.16


Punjabi [Rajput]
0.18


Reza Mother
0.1


Zayd [Bengali]
0


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0


bmoney
0


mGFSister - Sadia
0


mGM - Brother [Kho/Uzbek]
0


mAunt - Farida
0


pUncle - Jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0


Bahawalpur - Cousin [Leghari]
0


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0


khanabadoshi
0


MonkeyDLuffy [Punjabi; Tarkhan]
0


Sapporo [Punjabi; Jatt]
0


khana Brother
0


khana Sister - .hanif
0


khana (mGM - balq)
0


Saba123 (Aunt) (Qashqai)
0



Which calculator is this?

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 09:39 PM
After the Misl leader right. It's interesting how Sikh Ramgarhias have a higher caste position than Hindus or Muslims.

What I meant was I have never seen Hindu or Muslim Tarkhans, most people from that community here in Oz would be Sikhs

The Hindu Tarkhans usually come from Haryana and Himachal. They have different surnames from us, and are called "Khatis/Brahi". We dont intermarry with them for some reason. They usually have surnames like Dhiman. Ajay Devgan is a Hindu Tarkhan.

Muslim Tarkhans are not the wealthiest bunch tbh, and to this day they live in poverty/middle class in Pakistan Punjab.

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 09:43 PM
Very interesting, could be a Brahmin/Indo-Aryan marker? Brahmin castes are known to have small founder populations

I am not sure. I don't think so because it's a pattern/cline I can't resolve in that sense.

A Pashtun, a Sindhi, all the Brahmins (North/South), the Syed, a Bengali, and a Chauhan all score some percentage. Why does the Sindhi and Chauhan score, but not myself? Why does the Pashtun from Mohmand (likely of some Dardic background) score, but not my Grandmother? Why does that Pashtun score close to 10% while the Tajik/Pashtun in Afghanistan scores only ~2%? Why is the only person in the South scoring any percentage a Brahmin, and how does he also score ~10%? What is the significance of this? Why are other northern populations not scoring any?

I can't explain the scoring by geography, ethnicity, religion, y-DNA lineages, or a temporary population introgression during the Indo-Greek or any other era, or by some connection to the IVC, or some connection to the Steppe, or anything else really, and satisfactorily account for its scope.

EDIT: The only thing I can think of is that maybe the underestimation of Iran N went into this category for some people.
DOUBLE EDIT: Maybe it is Indo-Aryan related --- Given that the Saraswat+Chamar siblings are half-half, I'd assume their father would score 6-7%. Then we'd have the Mohmand, Tamil Brahmin, Chauhan, Sindhi, and them in a similar range. If we assume that Varun's lineage is not only originally from the North, but more Western as well, and that the Mohmand is originally Dardic -- then we may have the semblance of some pattern forming.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 09:51 PM
Which calculator is this?

K12, its on geneplaza.

parasar
10-16-2017, 09:55 PM
[QUOTE=parasar;297404]For Chitwan:
17 out of the 25 samples were R1a1 (initially reported as 18/26 or 69.2% in the source paper) and of these 17, 16 were L657+ (M780+) and one Z93+Z94+Z95+ M780-, Z2125- per Underhill 2014.

For Tharu:
14 out of 170 samples were R1a1 and all 14 were L657+(M780+).

Despite 30/31 being L657, the STR age was relatively deep:

Nepal Hindu 2857
Nepal Tharu 4167 (I would discount the deep age in the Tharu as it is likely a delta STR distribution)
(for comparison: 30 European Roma R1a1 samples gave an age of 500 years)


So, they did not break up the results by ethnic groups. I think both Pahari and Madheshi Hindus were included in the research. From what I've seen in 23andme, majority of my Nepali relatives had R1a1a haplogroup, but 23andme doesn't show specifically which type is it, I'm also R1a1a, but I don't know if it's L657+ or Z93+. I guess L657+ is the oldest one & the Z93+ came with later Indo-Aryans, if I'm not wrong? What's your y-dna type btw ?

L657 is just a variety of Z93 most prevalent in South Asia and seems to peak in the Nepal/E India region.
I'm (my sample# YF01382): Z93+ L657+ Y9+ Y2392+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2392/

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 09:57 PM
Which calculator is this?

Kurd's K12 Rare Alleles Neolithic calculator. It's available on GenePlaza for $5.

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 10:12 PM
[QUOTE=pnb123;297847]

L657 is just a variety of Z93 most prevalent in South Asia and seems to peak in the Nepal/E India region.
I'm (my sample# YF01382): Z93+ L657+ Y9+ Y2392+ https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2392/

We really need to encourage some more South Asians to go beyond the basic autosomal testing and get the deeper y-DNA clades. It's hard to infer the modern ethnogenesis of the region, when all we have to go on is that someone is R1a1a. It's much too ambiguous. Men bring their y-DNA with them, and that y-DNA can give a sense of time and direction. The deeper one tests, the less we have to guess.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-16-2017, 10:15 PM
Too expensive mate, most of us stop caring after getting Admixture results. although I might go for Big Y somewhere in future.

Also, is Y-37 is enough to know the strain of R1a1a I belong to?

khanabadoshi
10-16-2017, 10:37 PM
Too expensive mate, most of us stop caring after getting Admixture results. although I might go for Big Y somewhere in future.

Also, is Y-37 is enough to know the strain of R1a1a I belong to?

Parasar will navigate you through the best of options. You have to do one of the Y-## tests just to see where you stand before knowing what is enough. I was lucky, in that 23andme wrote R-Z282, and so I knew something was different. Ironically, had I tested now, I wouldn't be clued in because now I'm just R-M417 like everyone else on 23andme.

TBH though, if some studies would just do deep testing of the 100s of HGDP samples instead of just telling me "70% of W Bengal Brahmins are R1a1a" -- that'd save us all a lot of time, effort, cash, and unresolved questions.

anthroin
10-16-2017, 11:09 PM
Could you break this down in layman's terms:

Southern Neolithic culture, was it a successor to the IVC or independent ASI-only culture?

You somehow seem to me to be thinking that there was one civilised IVC (and pre-IVC cultures) in the northwest and then one single hunting-gathering culture in India proper, one you term "ASI-only culture". Please forgive me if I understood you incorrectly, but I think it is not a good idea to think of archaeological cultures in genetic terms (unless reliable data like aDNA, etc. are available from those sites; but for the time being, I can perhaps assure you that physical anthropological studies of skeletons of all the neolithic, iron age, whatever cultures in both Pakistan and India could not confirm any notions of racial purity in these sites. I may definitely be wrong but that's the way I understood it.), for example IVC as "ANI-only" or the neolithic tradition of Odisha as "ASI-only". I mean, it may even be remotely okay if we say things like "ANI dominated" or "ASI rich" or such things, but it's not at all sensible to think of constructs like "ASI-only" or such stuff with respect to archaeological cultures, in my view. That too, in the case of neolithic cultures and not even some old upper paleolithic cultures or early mesolithic cultures.

There were many distinct cultural traditions in India alongside the Indus Valley Tradition of Pakistan and India. Many of them may have received initial impetus of origins of basic pastoralism, etc. from the IVT but that's about it; they all made very different kinds of pottery, sometimes it even appears that they showcased their distinct identity by pottery. About languages, we don't know much at all. There are several cultural complexes belonging to non-IVT in Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh and surrounds itself- Ganeshwar-Jodhpura Culture, Ahar-Kayatha culture, Anarta Cultural Tradition of north Gujarat, etc. In the east, there was a distinctive mesolithic (emphasis on fishing) and wild-rice-using (with a good chance of rice domestication also) culture before the northwestern crops of wheat and barley began to show up there beginning from around 2500 BC. In the peninsula, there was the extremely distinctive Southern Neolithic Cultural Tradition beginning at around 2800 BC in the doab between the Krishna and the Tungabhadra rivers in modern day Raichur district, Karnataka and Mahabubnagar district, Telangana. The only connection of that culture with the IVT was the zebu cows, likely first domesticated in 6th-5th millennia BC in the IVT, and seen everywhere in the Southern Neolithic sites. The Neolithic Tradition of the IVT transforms itself to become the IVC beginning at around 2500 BC in Harappa, while the Southern Neolithic begins at around 2800 BC in the Deccan. So Southern Neolithic was definitely not a successor to the IVC, because of the contemporaneity, but it may perhaps be called the "successor" of the IVT on a broad scale, if you consider the zebu cows. But that's about it. The IVT in fact did not influence the Southern Neolithic Culture at all in its heyday in the IVC; there were far fewer evidences of contacts between IVC and the Southern Neolithic than there are for the more northern Indian cultures. (IVC just made full use of Mesopotamia as their market though.). Southern Neolithic Cultural Tradition is characterised by the distinctive ashmounds in the core cultural region in the Raichur Doab, created by burning huge heaps of cattle dung to high temperatures; it's pretty much accepted that these ashmounds were one of the most culturally salient entities for the Southern Neolithic people. Now lay people (non-archaeologists) like us may compare these with the brick buildings of the IVC and say these were some waste, inferior people; perhaps they were, but it is not such a problem for me personally; in fact, I like the Southern Neolithic people as equally as the IVC people, if not more (please note that I'm not talking of any links between Southern Neolithic Cultures and Dravidian languages or "ASI-only" or "20 ASI 80 ANI" or "50-50" or some such extremely stupid stuff here). There is growing acceptance that two pulses and two millets were domesticated in the southern Deccan by the Southern Neolithic people, there also seems to be a good amount of likelihood for the domestication to have been primary- i.e. involving complete internal development with minimal cultural inputs from outside.



This makes sense for me, because upper caste modern Dravidian people have low genetic distance with modern Gujaratis

It doesn't make sense to me personally based on several other factors, some of which I tried to outline through these posts, but I agree I may very well be wrong. Time will prove me wrong or right.



Could be right, could be Munda languages as Witzel alluded to, or could be Burushaski or Nuristani predecessors being the official IVC language. Having said that Dravidian languages in south India have low time depth and low variation, suggesting that the origin of the language group was somewhere else.

Also for me Haplogroup J and Ls presence in Baluchistan/Sindh and south India suggests a Dravidian link

Witzel spoke of a "Para-Munda" language, a choice perhaps to highlight the prefixing nature of the detected language though he talked of some possible lexical connections with the actual Munda languages too. Anyway, he changed the name of this supposed substrate from "Para-Munda" to "Kubha-Vipas substrate". I don't know the significance of this name change. Nuristani languages also belong to the Indo-Iranian branch of the Indo-European language family, so if they were present in the IVC, then there is no reason Indo-Aryan and Indo-Iranian were not present as well. The linguistic center of gravity principle (https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-linguistic-centre-of-gravity-principle-and-why-is-it-considered-valid) puts Proto-Dravidian in the northeastern peninsula (please see this paper (http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~fsouth/Proto-DravidianAgriculture.pdf)). While I don't know much about the low diversity, it is still imaginable that the population in the southern Deccan would have been scarce anyway before the Neolithic-Megalithic transition and relatively stay put too- such as in the vicinities of the Krishna-Tungabhadra systems. I of course strongly believe that there were other languages too in south India in the Neolithic, especially in southerly parts of Tamil Nadu and Kerala, whose speakers likely language-shifted to Dravidian after the spread of Iron Age South Dravidian-speaking groups.

I cannot claim to know anything about the haplogroups but the mere presence of L and J does not tell me when exactly these L1as and Js may have come to south India (I am not competent enough to consider and evaluate TMRCAs and stuff). Anyway, it does not bother me much because I hold the (Pre-) Proto Dravidian speakers to have arrived from the Indo-Iranian border lands or some such place only ultimately, just that I believe they were there in the peninsula by 3000 BC (likely the northern peninsula first- in the region including the Dry Deciduous Forest and Moist Deciduous Forest zones of Madhya Pradesh and Gujarat, etc. You may perhaps be interested in this (http://www.homepages.ucl.ac.uk/~tcrndfu/articles/Fuller%20in%20Petraglia&Allchin.pdf)). That said, I do think it is a mystery why L is not found in eastern north India, it's a place in the area where the Late Harappan people are supposed to have gone, no? (Maybe because of the high R1a? I'm just speculating with no basis though. Please don't take my thoughts seriously here.)

Edit: Just wanted to mention about this (I know, I feel exceptionally guilty for keeping on doing this but still a sort of platform appears to have been formed with some good audience at this stage in here in some way, so I'll transgress again): I quite recently found out about and went through this brilliant paper titled "Pleonastic Compounding:
An Ancient Dravidian Word Structure" (http://www.laurasianacademy.com/pleonastic.pdf) by Periannan Chandrasekaran which establishes with what appear to me (with me some significant amount of exposure to Dravidian linguistics) to be very sound arguments, the existence of a productive pleonastic compounding pattern in word formation in the Proto-Dravidian stage which also continues to be productive in modern languages too (Pleonastic compounding essentially means using two words meaning nearly the same thing to mean a thing that again means nearly the same- to illustrate, we in Telugu sometimes have a tendency to say pEparkAgitam meaning 'paper' formed of the English loanword pEpar, 'paper' and kAgitam also meaning 'paper'. This is an example from modern languages and with loan words but the paper discusses evidence for pleonastic compounding at many proto-stages of Dravidian). Now the remarkable thing is that this compounding principle helps provide what appear to be very rigorous and more satisfactory Dravidian etymologies to some (some, not all yet lol- but one amusing thing is that two of the four or five words connected have to do with snakes- Sa. SarkoDa connected to the pleonastic Dravidian compound *car-kOTTu, *car- and *kOTTu both having 'snake' related meanings; the second one is the more well known Sa. karkoTa connected to Dravidian proto form *car-kOTTu again but via one word-initial (I think so) *c --> *k sound change that is considered rare and to sporadically occur in the North Dravidian languages) of the non-IE origin words of the Rigveda, some of which were posited to have come from the hypothetical "Para-Munda" source (like the SarkoDa above). So with more and more breakthroughs like this and the feverish (hopefully) research that follows those breakthroughs, the role of Dravidian (and other languages) in the prehistoric Indus Valley (it appears to have been present there after all in that timeframe, come to think of it, doesn't it? How would the Southern Neolithic get its African millets if not via the Indus Valley? (This is also the moment where I should correct my incorrect statement earlier that the IVT did not influence the Southern Neolithic except for the zebu.) Were the now lost Dravidian-speakers of the IVC (edit again: ayyO not "Dravidian-speakers of the IVC" lol- it better be written as "Dravidian speakers who appear to have been detected in the IVC" and using IVC is of course not correct also, since the evidence comes from the Vedic texts which are later than the IVC proper)the Snake-Keepers of the ancient Indus Valley? Or were they the people in-charge of the zoos? Did the IVC have any zoos? I'm just joking of course and am saying that just to ensure no one considers for a moment that I am not joking, hopefully.).

Varun R
10-17-2017, 12:04 AM
I am not sure. I don't think so because it's a pattern/cline I can't resolve in that sense.

A Pashtun, a Sindhi, all the Brahmins (North/South), the Syed, a Bengali, and a Chauhan all score some percentage. Why does the Sindhi and Chauhan score, but not myself? Why does the Pashtun from Mohmand (likely of some Dardic background) score, but not my Grandmother? Why does that Pashtun score close to 10% while the Tajik/Pashtun in Afghanistan scores only ~2%? Why is the only person in the South scoring any percentage a Brahmin, and how does he also score ~10%? What is the significance of this? Why are other northern populations not scoring any?

I can't explain the scoring by geography, ethnicity, religion, y-DNA lineages, or a temporary population introgression during the Indo-Greek or any other era, or by some connection to the IVC, or some connection to the Steppe, or anything else really, and satisfactorily account for its scope.

EDIT: The only thing I can think of is that maybe the underestimation of Iran N went into this category for some people.
DOUBLE EDIT: Maybe it is Indo-Aryan related --- Given that the Saraswat+Chamar siblings are half-half, I'd assume their father would score 6-7%. Then we'd have the Mohmand, Tamil Brahmin, Chauhan, Sindhi, and them in a similar range. If we assume that Varun's lineage is not only originally from the North, but more Western as well, and that the Mohmand is originally Dardic -- then we may have the semblance of some pattern forming.

Well, my dad's family is of the same cloth as Parasar's branch- coming from Ahicchatra, as per legend. Don't quite know where the Iyers are from originally....
Not coincidentally, my family guardian (per traditional custom) is Durga.

parasar
10-17-2017, 12:26 AM
...

TBH though, if some studies would just do deep testing of the 100s of HGDP samples instead of just telling me "70% of W Bengal Brahmins are R1a1a" -- that'd save us all a lot of time, effort, cash, and unresolved questions.

This is a pet peeve! And that Jat paper has retrogressed to predicting haplogroups from STRs - reminds one of the early days of FTDNA!

MonkeyDLuffy
10-17-2017, 12:43 AM
This is a pet peeve! And that Jat paper has retrogressed to predicting haplogroups from STRs - reminds one of the early days of FTDNA!

Prasar, do you think Y-37 is enough to know my R1a1a strain? The price is still really high in Canada for that ($168!!)

parasar
10-17-2017, 01:05 AM
Prasar, do you think Y-37 is enough to know my R1a1a strain? The price is still really high in Canada for that ($168!!)

Not worth it. I can probably figure it out from 37 STRs whether you are L657 or not, but to be sure SNP testing is the better way to go. R1a1-Z645 overall is too young for a conclusive 37 marker determination. We tend to forget that all 300 million or so R1a1 in South Asia have a common ancestor from 2500BC and nearly all Ra1a1 worldwide have a common ancestor from 3000BC!

Since you are from the Punjab likelihood is high that you are R1a1-Y7. http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11867

pegasus
10-17-2017, 06:27 AM
Jats have definitely been linked to Scythians.

Kurd still does on Geneplaza. Would be interesting to see your results, its called the K12 Ancient Admixture Calc.

I don't think it is as accurate as K9ASI as it attributes a lot of Iran_N to the steppe. Maybe the Iran_N people had ancient steppe admixture, who knows

The Sakas who swept through NW South Asia , already had established kingdoms in Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) and but their main power base was in Southern Afghanistan and part of SE Iran ie Sakastan, its called Sistan in Iran. The closest group to Scythians are Yagnobhi and they have a lot of Iran_Chl surprsingly. I don't think Jats have much if any direct Scythian admixture. The candidate for direct descendents of Scythians would be those Ormuri Pashtuns or Pashtuns in Southern Afghanistan, as they have elevated Steppe admixture and a good amount of Iran_Chl and and most importantly they are East Iranic speakers just like Scythians were. Chinese chroniclers were meticulous in their descriptions of them and described them as "bushy hairy" and often having some degree of rufosity. Of the 7 Ginger Pashtuns I have met, 6 were from southern Afghanistan. My hunch is MC1R genes was carried by these people but not by Bronze Age Indo Aryans. Interestingly my Nuristani and Kalash friends tell me while blondism is common, nobody in their villages had natural red hair unless they dyed it with Henna.

bmoney
10-17-2017, 10:30 AM
The Sakas who swept through NW South Asia , already had established kingdoms in Bactria (Northern Afghanistan) and but their main power base was in Southern Afghanistan and part of SE Iran ie Sakastan, its called Sistan in Iran. The closest group to Scythians are Yagnobhi and they have a lot of Iran_Chl surprsingly. I don't think Jats have much if any direct Scythian admixture. The candidate for direct descendents of Scythians would be those Ormuri Pashtuns or Pashtuns in Southern Afghanistan, as they have elevated Steppe admixture and a good amount of Iran_Chl and and most importantly they are East Iranic speakers just like Scythians were. Chinese chroniclers were meticulous in their descriptions of them and described them as "bushy hairy" and often having some degree of rufosity. Of the 7 Ginger Pashtuns I have met, 6 were from southern Afghanistan. My hunch is MC1R genes was carried by these people but not by Bronze Age Indo Aryans. Interestingly my Nuristani and Kalash friends tell me while blondism is common, nobody in their villages had natural red hair unless they dyed it with Henna.

What about the Karasuk Scythian component. Seems to be very high in MonkeyDLuffy and Sapporo.

Also what would be the 'mongoloid' proportion, for lack of a better word, of the Scythians in your opinion?

The Yaghnobi definitely look like the original Indo-Iranians, very fair haired, possibly linked to the red bearded Tocharians? though I read the Tocharians formed a separate branch of IE

According to Eupedia that only R1b is associated with red hair though, R1a is more associated with blond hair.

in contrast to the Iranians who are more Western Farmer/Levant/Caucasus mixed

Nuristani and Kalash friends? What neck of the woods are you from? Thought you were European for some reason

pegasus
10-17-2017, 12:35 PM
What about the Karasuk Scythian component. Seems to be very high in MonkeyDLuffy and Sapporo.

Also what would be the 'mongoloid' proportion, for lack of a better word, of the Scythians in your opinion?

The Yaghnobi definitely look like the original Indo-Iranians, very fair haired, possibly linked to the red bearded Tocharians? though I read the Tocharians formed a separate branch of IE

According to Eupedia that only R1b is associated with red hair though, R1a is more associated with blond hair.

in contrast to the Iranians who are more Western Farmer/Levant/Caucasus mixed

Nuristani and Kalash friends? What neck of the woods are you from? Thought you were European for some reason

Ancient calculators are great for Europeans as there are a good amount of ancient genomes from the region. A lot of these Scythian samples from Central Asia have a good amount of ENA, so if you lump them in they do share superficial common ancestry. But these are not the Scythian groups relevant to South Asia at all.
Again attaching predicted phenotypes to uniparental markers which is not a good idea for complex genomes.
Areni Cave Armenian sample who is L1a had red hair and blue eyes. Rufosity occurs all over West Asia, it occurs sporadically with Levantines, Kurds, and to a lesser degree plateau Iranians. Blondism is more vague , because it occured on its own in Europe with WHGs, Near Easterners and even Aborigines in Australia.
Actually Yaghnobi are not that fair haired ie blond, that distinction goes to remote Pamiri Tajik groups in Badakhshan, followed by Nuristani/Kalash in the Hindu Kush IMO.

parasar
10-18-2017, 04:11 PM
Well, my dad's family is of the same cloth as Parasar's branch- coming from Ahicchatra, as per legend. Don't quite know where the Iyers are from originally....
Not coincidentally, my family guardian (per traditional custom) is Durga.

It has been referenced a few times on this thread that Naag has Dravidian connotation/origin that somehow excludes Aryans. I would submit there is no such mutual exclusivity.
As you note the core point of expansion has Ahi in its name, which along with the Kavis, Devs, Usigs, Karpans has a negative connotation in Zoroastrian (Azhi Dahaka). But we know that it was not pre-existing negativity but came due to the break Zarathustra had from the Kavi-Karpan alliance of which he himself was a member of prior his reformation.

Also in the time-frame of the movement south of many of the Brahman clans it is fascinating how snake oriented northern India was. From Takshshila (Takshak naag) to Saisunaags of Magadh, naags were everywhere. When Samudragupt conquered Aryavart these are names of Aryavart kings he lists:
"the forcible extermination of many kings of Āryāvarta such as Rudradēva, Matila, Nāgadatta, Chandravarman, Gaṇapatināga, Nāgasēna, Āchyuta-Nandin and Balavarman"

Prior to the Gupts/Licchavis, we had the Bhaarshivs for whom the naag was a common motif. So much so that the Bharshivs are often referred to as naags (of Vidisha, Mathura, Padmavati, Kantipuri etc. ).

parasar
10-18-2017, 07:34 PM
...
The W Euro Farmer scores is something consistent with the Brahmins/Pashtuns/certain populations vs the rest of the South Asians in this calculator. Most everyone else scores 0. It's an interesting pattern:
...

Any ideas why that may be the case?

anthroin
10-18-2017, 08:42 PM
It has been referenced a few times on this thread that Naag has Dravidian connotation/origin that somehow excludes Aryans. I would submit there is no such mutual exclusivity.
As you note the core point of expansion has Ahi in its name, which along with the Kavis, Devs, Usigs, Karpans has a negative connotation in Zoroastrian (Azhi Dahaka). But we know that it was not pre-existing negativity but came due to the break Zarathustra had from the Kavi-Karpan alliance of which he himself was a member of prior his reformation.

Also in the time-frame of the movement south of many of the Brahman clans it is fascinating how snake oriented northern India was. From Takshshila (Takshak naag) to Saisunaags of Magadh, naags were everywhere. When Samudragupt conquered Aryavart these are names of Aryavart kings he lists:
"the forcible extermination of many kings of Āryāvarta such as Rudradēva, Matila, Nāgadatta, Chandravarman, Gaṇapatināga, Nāgasēna, Āchyuta-Nandin and Balavarman"

Prior to the Gupts/Licchavis, we had the Bhaarshivs for whom the naag was a common motif. So much so that the Bharshivs are often referred to as naags (of Vidisha, Mathura, Padmavati, Kantipuri etc. ).

Great to know. Thank you very much and sorry for my ignorance and inaccuracies.

bmoney
10-19-2017, 12:29 AM
It has been referenced a few times on this thread that Naag has Dravidian connotation/origin that somehow excludes Aryans. I would submit there is no such mutual exclusivity.
As you note the core point of expansion has Ahi in its name, which along with the Kavis, Devs, Usigs, Karpans has a negative connotation in Zoroastrian (Azhi Dahaka). But we know that it was not pre-existing negativity but came due to the break Zarathustra had from the Kavi-Karpan alliance of which he himself was a member of prior his reformation.

Also in the time-frame of the movement south of many of the Brahman clans it is fascinating how snake oriented northern India was. From Takshshila (Takshak naag) to Saisunaags of Magadh, naags were everywhere. When Samudragupt conquered Aryavart these are names of Aryavart kings he lists:
"the forcible extermination of many kings of Āryāvarta such as Rudradēva, Matila, Nāgadatta, Chandravarman, Gaṇapatināga, Nāgasēna, Āchyuta-Nandin and Balavarman"

Prior to the Gupts/Licchavis, we had the Bhaarshivs for whom the naag was a common motif. So much so that the Bharshivs are often referred to as naags (of Vidisha, Mathura, Padmavati, Kantipuri etc. ).

Agreed, I only added that it was absent at the Indo-Iranian level, so it was either IVC or indigenous Indian, like maternal motifs and cow worship and were incorporated in the Vedic religion to later become what we know as Hinduism.

As I mentioned earlier, the Nagavanshi are a major Jat lineage and snakes are seen throughout modern Indo-Aryan culture.

Also, Nambudiri brahmins probably are the best proxy for the historical Vedic religion as they are very strict on maintaining this lineage. They do not include worship of snakes AFAIK

Edit I see what you mean parasar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zahhak - wonder if there is a connection

Random commentator on a wiki talk page:

Nairi people of Central asia and Armenia may give Nairs the name. The Scythian people who assimilated the Nairi people in 600 BC practised Matriarchy and were fierce warriers who were slave keepers. The Scythian Nairi or Saka People invaded India 200 yrs before christ.The Saka era started by them.While Megasthanes mentions them as Nairis in 300 BC Herodatus calls them Neuri while the ancient Egyptians called Nairis as Naharins indicating that the Nairis are closely related to Indian Nagas or the Parent stock. The word Nairi got Indianised and called Nayyars in Punjab, Nehras who mixed with Jats, Newars in Nepal, and Nairs who mixed with Nagas of Ahichatra and Nepal.The Naga scythian Nairis were called Nayaras in Karnataka prior to 800 AD Barkur inscriptions and Grama paddathi of Tulunad.After the repeated attacks of Rashtrakuta Nairs appeared in Kerala history around 970 ad, possibly during the reign of Rashtrakuta king Krishna 2 whose name is mentioned in Keralolpathi as the emperor who sent a Banapperumal prince as Cheraman Perumal with a Nair army to Kerla. The Tamil-Malayalam equivalent of Nairis is Nayar as it appears on the Thiruvalla shasanam around 1030 ad. Though in Malayalam it is written as Nayar the original name of the tribe is Nairi and is quite appropriate to name the article as Nair. Nativedravidan (talk) 14:23, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Both Keralolpathy and Karnataka accounts of Kadamba king Mayuravarma say that Bunt of Karnataka and Nairs are the Kshatriyas, who accompanied the Brahmins (Namboothiris,Pottis and Shivalli Brahmins) as slaves from Ahichatra the Naga kingdom. Mayuravarma brought them from Uttarpradesh/Uttarkhand at the Indo Nepalese border in the year 345 ad to Banavasi his capital. Naga Scythians were considered untouchables by the Aryans since atleast 2000 yrs. Nairs though fair are ethnically identical to the North Indian Nagas who form bulk of the Kshatriya population of North India. The Non Dravidian Kshatriya north Indian origins of Nairs should be included in the article.

Nativedravidan (talk) 14:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Chera was Tamil Villavar king who was called Villavarkon.Mukkuvars descend from Meenavar ancient Pandiyan people.Uzhavars became Vellalas not Ezhavas(Illavar). Ezhavas are another clan of Villavar people. Nairs are not related to Cheras but a North India NagaScythian (Indo-Scythian)Saka tribe from Ahichatra in Uttarpradesh who appeared in Kerala history only after the Northern (Vaduka) attacks by Rashtrakutas in the late first millenium. But they served the Later Chera kingdom as Generals and warriors in the last hundred years.(Padamala Nairs, Pada Nairs, Eradis etc).

Scythian Nairis or Naga Scythian Nairs of Ahichatra
As mentioned by the Keralolpathi and Kerala Mahatmiyam the Bunts and Nairs are Sudras accompanied the Brahmins from Ahichatra, a Naga kingdom in the Uttar Panchala in the present day Uttarkhand and the adjacent areas of Nepal.The Brahmins include the Namboothiris and Tulu Brahmins who may have common origins at Uttarpradesh. The Nagas were considered low caste by the Namboothiris possibly because of their foreign and Naga origins. Even now most of the low castes of north India have Naga origins. The Naga as well as Scythians were Buddhists and not Hindus in the ancient times which contributed to the degradation. Nairs might have been Buddhists in the ancient times.

bmoney
10-19-2017, 01:57 AM
@parasar and Nepali Brahmins.

What is your ANE% according to Eurogenes ANE K7 admixture.

For me you guys represent Brahmin lines the most on this forum, I want to understand what the ANE levels were in the Indo-Aryans

bmoney
10-19-2017, 02:42 AM
Perhaps you should visit the Lazardis paper its open to the public.
NO South Indian population is going to have high CHG, with exceptions being Parsis settled in South India.



As far as languages go it could be either Dravidian , early Vedic, or even Para Munda which is considered the main language for IVC zone along the Indus.

Hey Pegasus I think I have the explanation to why Paniyas show 20% steppe according to Lazaridis. I think Lazaridis means pure ANE when he talks about steppe

Its definitely not Indo-Aryan in Paniyas rather comes from the Iran_N component which itself is 39% ANE according to a BasalK7 reference spreadsheet I received from user Observer. edit: you linked the same spreadsheet so you're probably already across it

Paniyas also get the Basal eurasian component from the same population, the rest of their ancestry comes from Oceanian, East Asian and South-East Asian populations

Steppe/ANE seems to be coming into South Asia through multiple migrations from the north/west in various proportions

Varun R
10-20-2017, 06:46 PM
Any ideas why that may be the case?

Perhaps we are seeing evidence of multiple waves of Steppe ancestry into the subcontinent, with one wave being more eastern and intermixing into more populations than the other...

Gravetto-Danubian
10-22-2017, 05:45 PM
It might be that people from northern India have different history to EMBA steppe and Iranic speakers.

Yamnaya are, well, western steppians, formed from 3 late Glacial components - 1) Vilabruna 2) Afantova Siberians arrived c. 10000 BC and 3) CHG of Caucasus variety.

Yamnaya_Samara
Kotias:KK1 46.7 %
Villabruna:I9030 30.9 %
AfontovaGora3:I9050.damage 22.4 %
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 0 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 0 %

Looking to Kalasha:

Kalash
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 48.7 %
MA1:MA1 42.3 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 7.2 %
Ust_Ishim 1.8 %

A combination of a different, older 'Siberian' ancestry in form of MA-1, and Iran Neolithic.

Gujarat similar, but with 'ASI' ancestry appearing in the form of Ust-Ishm in my runs

GujaratiA
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 43.9 %
MA1:MA1 38.6 %
Ust_Ishim 17.4 %
Iran_Hotu:I1293 0.1 %

'Steppe Iranics', like Tahjiks, are formed on same basis, but they have notable west Asian admixture (CHG, ANF) perhaps mediated via BMAC e.a.

Tajik_Ishkashim
MA1:MA1 42.6 %
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 21.7 %
Kotias:KK1 15.6 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 15.3 %

I realise this is probably wrong 'pseudo-steppe' babble, but what the hey.

parasar
10-22-2017, 06:24 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?2551-Experimentation-with-TreeMix-Software&p=41429&viewfull=1#post41429
Shared drift with MA1


@parasar and Nepali Brahmins.

What is your ANE% according to Eurogenes ANE K7 admixture.

For me you guys represent Brahmin lines the most on this forum, I want to understand what the ANE levels were in the Indo-Aryans

MonkeyDLuffy
10-22-2017, 07:46 PM
Mahn I miss everest. He disappeared.

btw here's mine ANE k7

ANE 30.32
ASE 17.06
WHG-UHG 7.01
East_Eurasian 4.32
West_African -
East_African 2.16
ENF 39.13

parasar
10-23-2017, 05:34 AM
Mahn I miss everest. He disappeared.

btw here's mine ANE k7

ANE 30.32
ASE 17.06
WHG-UHG 7.01
East_Eurasian 4.32
West_African -
East_African 2.16
ENF 39.13

Yes everest59 had some very informative posts.

We have also seen the trend that Gravetto-Danubian pointed as we go from south east to the NW.
The S/E is more Ust Ishim like, the north/NW ANE like, the NW more Iran-Neolithic like, and it only when we get to the central Asian Tajiks that CHG and Neolithic become major factors.

This is accordance with my thinking that Ust was on the ancestral ASI side of the OoA (or OoSEA) split.
"Ust-Ishim is essentially ancestral ASI so that looks in line."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3462-GEDmatch-Archaic-Matching/page4&p=58940#post58940
"Ust-Ishim looks to be just on the ancestral ASI side of the ANI-ASI split."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3745-Y-DNA-of-Mesolithic-east-Europeans(EHG)&p=66478&viewfull=1#post66478

bmoney
10-24-2017, 02:04 AM
It might be that people from northern India have different history to EMBA steppe and Iranic speakers.

Yamnaya are, well, western steppians, formed from 3 late Glacial components - 1) Vilabruna 2) Afantova Siberians arrived c. 10000 BC and 3) CHG of Caucasus variety.

Yamnaya_Samara
Kotias:KK1 46.7 %
Villabruna:I9030 30.9 %
AfontovaGora3:I9050.damage 22.4 %
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 0 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 0 %

Looking to Kalasha:

Kalash
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 48.7 %
MA1:MA1 42.3 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 7.2 %
Ust_Ishim 1.8 %

A combination of a different, older 'Siberian' ancestry in form of MA-1, and Iran Neolithic.

Gujarat similar, but with 'ASI' ancestry appearing in the form of Ust-Ishm in my runs

GujaratiA
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 43.9 %
MA1:MA1 38.6 %
Ust_Ishim 17.4 %
Iran_Hotu:I1293 0.1 %

'Steppe Iranics', like Tahjiks, are formed on same basis, but they have notable west Asian admixture (CHG, ANF) perhaps mediated via BMAC e.a.

Tajik_Ishkashim
MA1:MA1 42.6 %
Iran_Neolithic:I1290 21.7 %
Kotias:KK1 15.6 %
Barcin_Neolithic:I1099 15.3 %

I realise this is probably wrong 'pseudo-steppe' babble, but what the hey.

What is the barcin_neolithic component? - Kotias is roughly CHG?

is Ust_ishim interchangable with ASI?

Also, Yamnaya ancestry is present in south Indians as well:







W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN


bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8

bmoney
10-24-2017, 02:11 AM
Yes everest59 had some very informative posts.

We have also seen the trend that Gravetto-Danubian pointed as we go from south east to the NW.
The S/E is more Ust Ishim like, the north/NW ANE like, the NW more Iran-Neolithic like, and it only when we get to the central Asian Tajiks that CHG and Neolithic become major factors.

This is accordance with my thinking that Ust was on the ancestral ASI side of the OoA (or OoSEA) split.
"Ust-Ishim is essentially ancestral ASI so that looks in line."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3462-GEDmatch-Archaic-Matching/page4&p=58940#post58940
"Ust-Ishim looks to be just on the ancestral ASI side of the ANI-ASI split."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3745-Y-DNA-of-Mesolithic-east-Europeans(EHG)&p=66478&viewfull=1#post66478

Good summary, I would like to add the more east you go in South Asia the more East Asian and SE Asian. According to Razib Khan, the Austronesian component came into South Asia from the East.

Possibly bring premixed E Asian with them (this is my theory not Razibs) as modern Bengalis have East as well as SE Asian ancestry (probably peaks in Orissa). In Nepal this is probably due to actual Sino-Tibetan mix and Newari substrate

bmoney
10-24-2017, 02:36 AM
Mahn I miss everest. He disappeared.

btw here's mine ANE k7

ANE 30.32
ASE 17.06
WHG-UHG 7.01
East_Eurasian 4.32
West_African -
East_African 2.16
ENF 39.13

Your NW shift presents itself with the WHG-UHG component but I expected your ANE to be higher. I expect Parasar to be higher ANE as he shares some of the highest drift with MA_1 among users in the forum. Also I think the calculator is probably a bit old and superseded now

Mine:

Population
ANE 29.25
ASE 20.95
WHG-UHG 0.95
East_Eurasian 4.12
West_African -
East_African 5.41
ENF 39.32

Parasar, good quote:
When ancestral ASI split into ASI and ENA, the portion that formed ANE is closer to the latter. So I will have both those portions - ASI from ancestral ASI (direct from South Asia) and ANE via ENA (wrapping around via SE Asia, E. Asia, Siberia, C. Asia, into South Asia).

Makes sense that ANE split from ENA if you follow haplogroups K2b and then basal P (SE Asia now found in Luzon Philippines) to P1 in Siberia then R in MA-1 Siberia and then back West (r1a r1b in the steppe, r1a offshoot back to South Asia) and to South and West Asia (r2). R1 also went to the Americas through the Bering Strait - Q also went this way from the Siberian split of P1:

Other authorities point to the greater similarity between haplogroup R1 subclades found in North America and those found in Siberia (e.g. Lell [11] and Raghavan [12]), suggesting prehistoric immigration from Asia and/or Beringia, deriving from two major Siberian migrations. The first migration came from middle Siberia with the founding haplotype P-M45(x Q-M3). A second migration came from southeastern Siberia (Lower Amur/Sea of Okhkotsk/Kamchatka region) with the founding haplotype P-M45(x R1-M173), delineated by the RPS4Y-T marker, and took place at 7,000–9,500 years before present. Significant frequencies of RPS4Y-T are found in several northern Amerindian and Na-Dene populations (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999), and in Lake Baikal region and Mongolia (Karafet et al. 1999), but is absent in Europeans (Bergen et al. 1999), reaching its highest frequencies in the populations of eastern Siberia. The P-M45(x R1-M173) subhaplogroup essentially seems to connect the population of eastern Siberians with the North- and Central-American Na-Dene and the surrounding Amerindian speakers. The RPS4Y-T diversification lends toward east Asia. The data correlates well with previous conclusions about the maternal migrations into Americas.[13]

R1-positive P-M45 tested populations: Udegeys, Koryaks, North- and Central-American natives

MonkeyDLuffy
10-24-2017, 03:19 AM
Your NW shift presents itself with the WHG-UHG component but I expected your ANE to be higher. I expect Parasar to be higher ANE as he shares some of the highest drift with MA_1 among users in the forum. Also I think the calculator is probably a bit old and superseded now

Mine:

Population
ANE 29.25
ASE 20.95
WHG-UHG 0.95
East_Eurasian 4.12
West_African -
East_African 5.41
ENF 39.32

Parasar, good quote:
When ancestral ASI split into ASI and ENA, the portion that formed ANE is closer to the latter. So I will have both those portions - ASI from ancestral ASI (direct from South Asia) and ANE via ENA (wrapping around via SE Asia, E. Asia, Siberia, C. Asia, into South Asia).

Makes sense that ANE split from ENA if you follow haplogroups K2b and then basal P (SE Asia now found in Luzon Philippines) to P1 in Siberia then R in MA-1 Siberia and then back West (r1a r1b in the steppe, r1a offshoot back to South Asia) and to South and West Asia (r2). R1 also went to the Americas through the Bering Strait - Q also went this way from the Siberian split of P1:

Significant frequencies of RPS4Y-T are found in several northern Amerindian and Na-Dene populations (Bergen et al. 1999; Karafet et al. 1999), and in Lake Baikal region and Mongolia (Karafet et al. 1999), but is absent in Europeans (Bergen et al. 1999), reaching its highest frequencies in the populations of eastern Siberia. The P-M45(x R1-M173) subhaplogroup essentially seems to connect the population of eastern Siberians with the North- and Central-American Na-Dene and the surrounding Amerindian speakers. The RPS4Y-T diversification lends toward east Asia. The data correlates well with previous conclusions about the maternal migrations into Americas.[13]

R1-positive P-M45 tested populations: Udegeys, Koryaks, North- and Central-American natives

you might find this spreadsheet neat:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuXBmvmgdkfVdFMtRHVlZDBuQ3lMcjhxMDE4V3JoY lE&usp=drive_web#gid=7

also on an update calculator ANE K8, I scored same level of ANE as haryana jatt. Check out in the spreadsheet.

poi
10-25-2017, 11:33 PM
@parasar and Nepali Brahmins.

What is your ANE% according to Eurogenes ANE K7 admixture.

For me you guys represent Brahmin lines the most on this forum, I want to understand what the ANE levels were in the Indo-Aryans

Population
ANE 28.20
ASE 15.71
WHG-UHG 7.23
East_Eurasian 10.72
West_African 0.85
East_African 1.31
ENF 35.98

bmoney
10-26-2017, 02:03 AM
Population
ANE 28.20
ASE 15.71
WHG-UHG 7.23
East_Eurasian 10.72
West_African 0.85
East_African 1.31
ENF 35.98

Not very different to North Indian samples at all... except for the extra 5% E Eurasian and slightly lower ASE hmmm

If Karasuk peaks in Pakistanis, maybe they have the highest ANE admixture

pegasus
10-29-2017, 03:43 AM
Hey Pegasus I think I have the explanation to why Paniyas show 20% steppe according to Lazaridis. I think Lazaridis means pure ANE when he talks about steppe

Its definitely not Indo-Aryan in Paniyas rather comes from the Iran_N component which itself is 39% ANE according to a BasalK7 reference spreadsheet I received from user Observer. edit: you linked the same spreadsheet so you're probably already across it

Paniyas also get the Basal eurasian component from the same population, the rest of their ancestry comes from Oceanian, East Asian and South-East Asian populations

Steppe/ANE seems to be coming into South Asia through multiple migrations from the north/west in various proportions

Pania have 0 Steppe they do have 20%-25 ANE depending on whose calculator you use. Malas are modeled as 20% Steppe but again they do not have Steppe either. Steppe and ANE are not the same, Steppe has CHG and EHG but underlying them they have a lot of UHG/Villabruna like components to them, but yeah as other members are saying its floating Steppe . Steppe in South Asia comes in the Bronze Age for the most part. ANE is different, my hunch it entered SA in the Paleolithic or Mesolithic, the one paper on Indian Mtdnas alluded to it.
https://www.nature.com/articles/srep46044/tables/1

parasar
10-29-2017, 04:44 PM
Added bmoney to the spreadsheet. Sorted South Asians and other regional ethnic groups by Karasuk E Scythian.







W EURO FARMERS
LEVANT
N/ChL IRAN-CHG
E EURO FARMERS
KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN
ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA
YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA
W EURO - SHG
SE. EURASIAN
E. AFRICAN
W. AFRICAN
ENA


Kurd-SE
12.56
5.63
16.4
7.8
26.46
6.66
9.55
0
13.22
0.62
0
1.11


Turkish
17.35
7.4
12.27
22.79
25.54
0
4.63
0
5.78
3.92
0
0.31


khana (mGM - balq)
0
3.5
15.1
16.6
25.3
8.5
11.7
1.3
17.8
0
0
0.2


khana Sister - .hanif
0
4.8
15.6
18.3
25.2
2.8
12.4
0
18
0
1
2.1


mAunt - Farida
0
4.9
14.7
9
22.6
11.7
11.1
0
23.8
0
2.2
0


khana Brother
0
5.9
15.8
17.7
21.6
1.9
14.1
0
19
2.7
0
1.2


Baloch; Iran
1.16
6.81
21.85
18.31
21.15
8.22
9.93
0
2.61
8.74
0
2.21


heksindhi [Sindhi]
7.2
6.7
20.5
5.7
21.1
3.4
12.4
1.2
15.8
5.3
0
0.7


Sapporo [Punjabi; Jatt]
0
5.1
17.8
11.9
20.3
7
12.9
0.1
20.3
1.3
2
1.4


MonkeyDLuffy [Punjabi; Tarkhan]
0
5.1
15.6
14.3
20.2
8.4
9.5
1
21.3
0.5
0.5
3.5


serena297 Brother
2.6
4.9
14.6
9.5
19.8
6.24
4.9
0
30.8
2.1
0.8
3.8


khanabadoshi
0
4.9
18
15.9
19.5
4.1
13
0
22.6
0.9
0
1.1


Lahore - [Rajput/Kashmiri]
0
4.9
15.7
12.3
18.8
10.4
10.1
0
22.9
2.1
0
2.8


mGM - Brother [Kho/Uzbek]
0
3.6
16.7
11.1
18.1
12.1
9.7
3.3
24.6
0.2
0
0.6


Mohmand Agency [Pashtun]
9.8
4.6
18.3
7.4
17.6
12.1
11.6
0.6
16.8
1.1
0
0.2


Ruhka [Tajik/Pashtun]
1.71
3.24
17.99
18.1
16.87
12.7
10.34
2.95
13.57
0
1.11
1.42


serena297 [Bramhin; Saraswat + Chamar]
2.1
6
15.4
4.1
16.5
8
7.1
2.9
32.8
2.6
0
2.6


mGFSister - Sadia
0
5.9
16.4
14.6
15.1
4.3
11.6
0.1
25.7
3.9
0
2.4


Reza [Bengali]
1.67
3.11
12.75
0.99
14.37
2.94
7.65
4.06
48.16
2.32
0
1.97


Konya
16
6.3
13.6
30.1
14.3
3.3
7.8
0
5.2
3.1
0
0.4


[B]bmoney
0
4.5
19.3
0
13.2
6.1
14.9
2.4
32.5
0.3
4
2.7


Multan - [Syed/Durrani]
1.9
6
17.1
7.9
13
13.4
10.9
4.1
22.1
2.1
0.4
1.2


noman [Chauhan]
7.7
5.5
17.7
2.9
12.3
14.3
12
0
23.8
1.7
0
2.2


Varun R [Tamil Brahmin; Iyer]
9.2
4.3
15
0
11.1
11.5
10.4
0.6
30.9
2.7
0.5
3.8


pUncle - Jam [Baloch/Kashmiri]
0
5
17.4
16.6
10.9
6.9
11.8
1.2
23.3
3.7
0
3.2


XooR [Turkish Laz]
19.6
7.2
21.3
30.4
10.4
3.5
7.2
0
0
0.5
0
0


Saba123 [Iran; Qashqai/Bakhtiari]
3.8
4.8
24.5
31.5
10
1.1
11.2
0
6
7.1
0
0


Turkish [Kayseri 23271]
17.06
6.73
17.35
30.42
9.69
6.78
8.56
0
2.42
0.73
0
0.28


Kurd; North Iraq 1
16.87
8.43
15.16
23.52
9.61
9.32
7.61
0
6.85
0
2.34
0.28


Punjabi [Rajput]
0.18
4.35
17.27
11.86
9.16
9.15
11.43
3.19
27.14
2.79
0
3.48


Saba123 (Aunt) (Qashqai)
0
4.8
21
36.6
8.9
10.7
7.4
0
4.1
5.8
0
0.7


Kurd; North Iraq 2 [Feyli]
13.83
6.94
14.76
27.77
8.88
11.06
7.09
0
5.7
3.8
0
0.16


Bahawalpur - Cousin [Leghari]
0
5.1
17.8
16.8
8.1
9.5
12.8
1.6
23.2
3.2
0
1.9


Abd.H [Syrian]
21.5
7.9
16.8
29
7.5
3.3
4.5
0
1.9
7
0
0.6


JFWinstone (Mother)
12.2
3.3
3.5
8.8
7.4
8
2.5
9.3
28.1
2.7
13.6
0.5


Jesus [Iran; SW]
13.18
10.25
17.92
22.38
6.85
5.56
5.26
0
8.13
6.53
2.29
1.66


Reza Mother
0.1
3.7
13
6.7
6
9.3
7
0.8
47.7
2
0
3.7


kush [Telugu; Reddy]
0
3.6
18.2
8
5.7
7.9
6.6
0
41
3.7
0
5.2


Kurd; North Iraq 3 [Kurmanji]
1.87
7.52
21.13
34.13
5.13
10.23
9.75
0
6.44
0
2.8
1


Zephyrous [Assyrian]
17.85
12.32
19.91
31.16
3.76
7.5
1.99
0
1.87
3.48
0
0.16


Zayd [Bengali]
0
5.6
10.3
7.3
0.1
8.7
9.6
2.6
49.9
1.2
0
4.8


ssamlal [Indo-Trinidadian]
3.6
5.3
12.3
7.2
0
9
10.5
0
46.9
1.7
0
3.4


Copt 1 [Egypt]
22.55
14.05
11.47
34.01
0
0
0
0
2.43
15.48
0
0





Going by your table it appears to me that YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA is very old in South Asia. I think it is certain to appear in both the Rakhigarhi and the Swat samples and likelier represents a migration to the steppes rather than from the steppes.

KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN is puzzling.
"it migrated southwards to the upper reaches of the Indus River and further westwards to eastern Anatolia ..." This comports well with highs in Kurds and the Indus area.
"The funerary complex discovered in northern India, in the Swat Valley, or the so-called “Gandhara grave culture” has turned out to be the closest in terms of its rite to the burials of the Sayan complex ... The Okunevo population dominated this complex of people, providing an ideological influence on others and uniting all into one super-ethnos, under a single ethnonym – Arya. "
http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034web/07Sokolova(434-456).pdf

If this is Aryan, then what is ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA?

My data: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11669-New-K12-Ancient-Calculator&p=301249&viewfull=1#post301249

khanabadoshi
10-29-2017, 06:44 PM
Going by your table it appears to me that YAMNAYA.AFANASIEVO.POLTAVKA is very old in South Asia. I think it is certain to appear in both the Rakhigarhi and the Swat samples and likelier represents a migration to the steppes rather than from the steppes.

KARASUK-E. SCYTHIAN is puzzling.
"it migrated southwards to the upper reaches of the Indus River and further westwards to eastern Anatolia ..." This comports well with highs in Kurds and the Indus area.
"The funerary complex discovered in northern India, in the Swat Valley, or the so-called “Gandhara grave culture” has turned out to be the closest in terms of its rite to the burials of the Sayan complex ... The Okunevo population dominated this complex of people, providing an ideological influence on others and uniting all into one super-ethnos, under a single ethnonym – Arya. "
http://www.clarkriley.com/JIES4034web/07Sokolova(434-456).pdf

If this is Aryan, then what is ANDRONOVO-SRUBNAYA?

My data: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11669-New-K12-Ancient-Calculator&p=301249&viewfull=1#post301249

How did the modern South Asian get this much ANE but not that much WHG from those groups? And how did they do so without losing Iran_N?


If all ANE (MA1 + AG2) and WHG in modern South Asians is mediated via an EHG (75% ANE) to Steppe_EMBA (42.6% ANE) to ANI route, and ANI is Iran_N + Steppe_EMBA, then you cannot account for the ANE or WHG scores in modern South Asians. In order to account for the ANE in the modern population you have to increase Steppe_EMBA contribution to ANI at the expense of Iran_N and benefit of WHG (because WHG is mediated via the same route). That can't be, because modern South Asians are low in WHG. On the flip-side how do you increase Steppe-like ancestry in the South without increasing ANI?

The effect of decreasing the Iran_N contribution to ANI could be offset and negligible if we have a pre-AMT IVC populace that is heavily Iran_N. If the IVC populace is heavily Iran_Hotu, you'd come much closer to resolving the issue. Iran_Hotu is 90% Iran_N + 10% EHG (6-7% ANE), and thus is a viable source for ANE (though not much), independent from Steppe_EMBA. The problem with Iran_Hotu is that it may not give enough ANE to compensate and it also would increase WHG by 1-2%.

What population(s) can give ANI more ANE without increasing WHG or can give a post-ANI+IVC populace more ANE without decreasing Iran_N in modern South Asians? And is that population's contribution in leiu of or in conjunction with Steppe_EMBA?

Is it, Below_Steppe_X + Steppe_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI? Is it, Steppe_NOT_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI? Is it, Above_Steppe_X + Steppe_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI?

I think ANI has to be just Steppe_EMBA (or related group) + Iran_N, and the extra ANE is mediated via a much older contribution to a pre-AMT-IVC populace. This accounts for high ANE/low WHG in high ANI populations. At the same time you can resolve the "Steppe-related" (ANE) ancestry in low-ANI populations without introducing a Steppe_EMBA-like population into their mix.


My line of thinking is that you have an ANI populace that is heavily Steppe_EMBA and the remainder Iran_N. Concurrently, you have an IVC populace that is Iran_N-like with ANE, that by this time has already interacted with more Southern and Eastern populations giving rise to an Iran_N + ANE + Onge-like + ENA population gradient. When the 2 groups merge, you get a new population (ANI+IVC) that is Iran N + Steppe_EMBA + WHG + ANE + Onge-like+ENA (ASI), let's call this group Indo-Aryan (for sake of a name). This interaction doesn't happen in the southern/eastern groups who are Iran N + ASI + ANE; let's call these people Indo-Dravidian (for sake of a name). The, now formed, Indo-Aryan population migrates East, post-Harappa, and interacts with Indo-Dravidian groups who are still sitting on various points of the older, larger, and ultimately more significant, IVC-ASI cline. Recurrent interaction with peoples on various points of this cline forms a new cline and thus, the population gradients we see today. This give the impression of an ANI/ASI cline, but the cline is really an ANI/IVC cline layered over an Iran_N/Onge+ENA cline. In this scenario, Iran_N in the IVC is mediated by a West to East movement of an Iran_N-like populace who settle there. All one needs to account for is a secondary population that gives them ANE but is older than Steppe_EMBA, then you resolve the ANE in low-ANI groups as well as the ANE and Steppe_EMBA in high-ANI groups -- all while keeping WHG low everywhere and retaining Iran N. The reason I think ANE has got to be sourced via [something] + pre-AMT IVC and not [something] + Onge/ENA (before the IVC) is that it can't be tied to ASI either, otherwise higher ASI would also mean higher ANE. I don't tie it to [something] + Steppe_EMBA, because then ANE is tied exclusively to ANI, and we'd still need a source for ANE in low-ANI populations. So it needs to be tied to Iran_N, the only component ANI and IVC can source independently of each other, and thus people in Northern and Southern populations can have an abundance of without interaction with one another. Simplest answer is Iran_Hotu, but it's probably something more involved.



This thought experiment all stems from this:



Lazaridis et al. (2016) "While the Early/Middle Bronze Age ‘Yamnaya’-related group (Steppe_EMBA) is a good genetic match (together with Neolithic Iran) for ANI (Ancestral North Indians), the later Middle/Late Bronze Age steppe population (Steppe_MLBA) is not." Lazaridis et al. (2016) "The demographic impact of steppe related populations on South Asia was substantial, as the Mala, a south Indian population with minimal ANI along the ‘Indian Cline’ of such ancestry is inferred to have ~18% steppe-related ancestry, while the Kalash of Pakistan are inferred to have ~50%, similar to present-day northern Europeans." Lazardis et al. (2016) study estimated 50%–30% steppe related admixture in Northern South Asians and 20% to 6% in Southern South Asians.
Lazaridis et al. (2016) further notes that "A useful direction of future research is a more comprehensive sampling of ancient DNA from steppe populations, as well as populations of central Asia (east of Iran and south of the steppe), which may reveal more proximate sources of the ANI than the ones considered here, and of South Asia to determine the trajectory of population change in the area directly."


On top of all this, however you model it, you have to take into account the yDNA and mtDNA frequencies of the region. It's layer upon layer of things to keep track of and difficult not have contradictions!

pegasus
10-29-2017, 08:48 PM
How did the modern South Asian get this much ANE but not that much WHG from those groups? And how did they do so without losing Iran_N?


If all ANE (MA1 + AG2) and WHG in modern South Asians is mediated via an EHG (75% ANE) to Steppe_EMBA (42.6% ANE) to ANI route, and ANI is Iran_N + Steppe_EMBA, then you cannot account for the ANE or WHG scores in modern South Asians. In order to account for the ANE in the modern population you have to increase Steppe_EMBA contribution to ANI at the expense of Iran_N and benefit of WHG (because WHG is mediated via the same route). That can't be, because modern South Asians are low in WHG.
On the flip-side how do you increase Steppe-like ancestry in the South without increasing ANI?

The effect of decreasing the Iran_N contribution to ANI could be offset and negligible if we have a pre-AMT IVC populace that is heavily Iran_N. If the IVC populace is heavily Iran_Hotu, you'd come much closer to resolving the issue. Iran_Hotu is 90% Iran_N + 10% EHG (6-7% ANE), and thus is a viable source for ANE (though not much), independent from Steppe_EMBA. The problem with Iran_Hotu is that it may not give enough ANE to compensate and it also would increase WHG by 1-2%.

What population(s) can give ANI more ANE without increasing WHG or can give a post-ANI+IVC populace more ANE without decreasing Iran_N in modern South Asians? And is that population's contribution in leiu of or in conjunction with Steppe_EMBA?

Is it, Below_Steppe_X + Steppe_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI? Is it, Steppe_NOT_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI? Is it, Above_Steppe_X + Steppe_EMBA + Iran_N = ANI?

I think ANI has to be just Steppe_EMBA + Iran_N, and the extra ANE is mediated via a much older contribution to a pre-AMT-IVC populace. This accounts for high ANE/low WHG in high ANI populations. At the same time you can resolve the "Steppe-related" (ANE) ancestry in low-ANI populations without introducing a Steppe_EMBA-like population into their mix.


My line of thinking is that you have an ANI populace that is heavily Steppe_EMBA and the remainder Iran_N. Concurrently, you have an IVC populace that is Iran_N-like with ANE, that by this time has already interacted with more Southern and Eastern populations giving rise to an Iran_N + ANE + Onge-like + ENA population gradient. When the 2 groups merge, you get a new population (ANI+IVC) that is Iran N + Steppe_EMBA (ANE + WHG) + ANE + Onge-like+ENA (ASI), let's call this group Indo-Aryan (for sake of a name). This interaction doesn't happen in the southern/eastern groups who are Iran N + ASI + ANE; let's call these people Indo-Dravidian (for sake of a name). The now formed Indo-Aryan population migrates East post-Harappa and interacts with Indo-Dravidian groups who are still sitting on various points of the older, larger, and ultimately more significant, IVC-ASI cline. Recurrent interaction on various points of this cline forms a new cline and the population gradients we see today. This give an impression of an ANI/ASI cline, but the cline is really a ANI/IVC cline layered over an Iran_N-like/Onge+ENA cline. In this scenario, Iran_N in the IVC is mediated by a West to East movement of an Iran_N-like populace who settle there. All one needs to account for is a secondary population that gives them ANE but is older than Steppe_EMBA, then you resolve the ANE in low-ANI groups as well as the ANE and Steppe_EMBA in high-ANI groups -- all while keeping WHG low everywhere and retaining Iran N. The reason I think ANE has got to be sourced via [something] + pre-AMT IVC and not [something] + Onge/ENA (before the IVC) is that is can't be tied to ASI either, otherwise higher ASI would also mean higher ANE. So it needs to be tied to Iran_N, the only component ANI and IVC can source independently of each other, and thus people in Northern and Southern populations can have and abundance of without interaction with one another. Simplest answer is Iran_Hotu, but it's probably something more involved.



This thought experiment all stems from this:



On top of all this, however you model it, you have to take into account the yDNA and mtDNA frequencies of the region. It's layer upon layer of things to keep track of and difficult not have contradictions!

These paradoxes can only be resolved with ancient genomes. SAs are a lot like North Africans and Horners ,so only mesolithic ,eneolithic and bronze age genomes in particular from SC Asia will resolve these issues, till than your going to get crappy fits. EBA steppe provides a better fit here because there are lack of proper of Mesolithic Iranian samples ( Hotu is damaged) as well samples in general. It also should be noted Pania are modeled as 40% Iran_N in the outgroup but have like a good amount of ANE , what makes this more complicated is they are one of the most "ASI" shifted group (80-85%) .
There was a paper 2 years which proposed Kalash represent an isolated population with high shared drift with MA1, it was flawed in ways because it said they were isolated for 12 000 years from other South Asians, which is not true as well they do have a lot of Steppe Yamnaya ancestry. That being said, it does allude to MA1 rich populations in the region. The same MA1 people who went to Iran, also definitely proceeded to SC Asia. In Eurasia, after Siberians it peaks in the Hindu Kush area and at almost similar levels approx (35-40%)

anthroin
10-30-2017, 12:09 AM
EBA steppe provides a better fit here because there are lack of proper of Mesolithic Iranian samples ( Hotu is damaged) as well samples in general.

This is interesting. I don't understand much of what you guys write here, but I quite sense that there is one "high ANE problem", so to speak, in South Asian population genetics. If there is a possibility that the ANE percentage was higher (than the low figure seen in the Hotu cave guy) in the mesolithic Iranians/ borderline central Asians near the area where that ancient sample was collected, i.e. Turkmenistan, it is a bit better for south Indians in my view, because a physical Yamna EMBA steppe ancestry model (and one with high percentages like 15~20% at that) for historically low caste and currently-tribal south Indians makes very little sense, assuming the Yamna/nearby to be the original homeland of the Indo-European cultures, and this is likely the case even after taking into consideration the possibility that the earliest satem dialect-speaking Indo-Europeans of India did come from a very early migration (compared to the traditional date of 1900 BC) directly from the Yamna steppe (and were the people of IVC and all that). And if I may speculate quite indiscriminately here, there may be a remote possibility that Iran_Hotu (whom I consider a central Asian guy really, at least going by his location) with its Iran_N+ANE was the genetic signature of the earliest Dravidian speakers (no idea whatsoever how the numbers add up though, i.e. the distribution of ANE in modern populations and all that, the Dravidian area is generally thought to be the south of India plus Maharashtra and the areas where the South Dravidian-II languages like Gondi and Central Dravidian languages of Parji, etc. are being spoken now- the northern limit for a predominantly Dravidian language distribution perhaps may have been Malwa in central India with occasional pockets in Punjab or Sindh as seen by the loan words in Vedic and others), if the high percentages of (CHG+EHG aka Steppe_EMBA) currently being modelled in south Indians are correct. That may perhaps also explain the here-and-there lexical links that Dravidian seems to have with Uralic- linguist F.C. Southworth in his "Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia" connects words such as PDr *cAL, a kinship term with meanings such as 'wife's brother, son-in-law, etc.' (which is also thought by some to be the source in India of the Indo-Aryan Sanskrit SyAla, Hindi sAlA, 'wife's brother', etc.) with Uralic words like Finnish käly, 'husband's sister, wife's sister' (Of course there is the possibility that both Uralic and Dravidian independently borrowed the word in question from Indo-Aryan but the word is currently very deeply rooted within Dravidian- so if the direction was from Indo-Aryan/Indo-European to Dravidian then it has to be at a much older date, even at the Proto-Dravidian stage, which opens up a set of problems regarding the antiquity of Dravidian in India). Other examples include PDr *muñAl, 'hare', Uralic Lappish-Norwegian njoammel, 'hare', Mordwin numolo 'hare', and PDr *ñamil 'peacock' with Uralic Samoyed ñIberu, Ostyak-Samoyed ñimere. If these lexical connections between Uralic and Dravidian are legitimate, then it may indicate a contact of Dravidian with Uralic in a very distant past and there is a possibility that this could have happened in or nearby Turkmenistan/Afghanistan.

In such a case, the Iran_N seen in south Indians may have, hypothetically, come from the post-collapse IVC who language-shifted to Dravidian in south India (though there is currently no archaeological evidence for such a movement of IVC people into the South-Dravidian-speaking area, i.e. the five states of south India; the IVC people extended just until Maharashtra in the south and east into the Gangetic plains, whether pre-collapse or post-collapse of their urban phase.)

Then there is Y-DNA haplogroup R2 also, which is distributed quite throughout the subcontinent, especially in India and which does not appear to be connected to the Indo-Aryan migrations, whenever the Indo-Aryans may have come. Sure some may have come from BMAC-type places during and after neolithic began, but there is so much R2 in deep southern groups like Irula also. It almost appears that the R2 seen in south Indian Brahmins and the Irula have very different histories- the former may have been more recent compared to the latter; it also appears that the R2 in Irula may be alongside or just slightly newer than the original C and H (which itself is likely later than the C) haplogroups of the Irulas (and other archaic south Indian groups, most of whom likely don't exist today). I don't know how R2 relates to the hypothetical early Dravidian speakers though; because it is present in significant quantities in eastern India where Dravidian languages had no significant presence during any points in prehistory. But please don't take my thoughts on this matter seriously at all, as I know next to nothing about the subject other than the superficialities I noted and the paragraph also includes many wild speculations.

Finally, I wish you guys all the best for your ANE problem though. Hopefully, some high amount of mesolithic era ANE comes to be seen in Afghanistan and surrounds as you expect.

bmoney
10-30-2017, 12:36 AM
My line of thinking is that you have an ANI populace that is heavily Steppe_EMBA and the remainder Iran_N. Concurrently, you have an IVC populace that is Iran_N-like with ANE, that by this time has already interacted with more Southern and Eastern populations giving rise to an Iran_N + ANE + Onge-like + ENA population gradient. When the 2 groups merge, you get a new population (ANI+IVC) that is Iran N + Steppe_EMBA + WHG + ANE + Onge-like+ENA (ASI), let's call this group Indo-Aryan (for sake of a name). This interaction doesn't happen in the southern/eastern groups who are Iran N + ASI + ANE; let's call these people Indo-Dravidian (for sake of a name). The, now formed, Indo-Aryan population migrates East, post-Harappa, and interacts with Indo-Dravidian groups who are still sitting on various points of the older, larger, and ultimately more significant, IVC-ASI cline. Recurrent interaction with peoples on various points of this cline forms a new cline and thus, the population gradients we see today. This give the impression of an ANI/ASI cline, but the cline is really an ANI/IVC cline layered over an Iran_N/Onge+ENA cline. In this scenario, Iran_N in the IVC is mediated by a West to East movement of an Iran_N-like populace who settle there. All one needs to account for is a secondary population that gives them ANE but is older than Steppe_EMBA, then you resolve the ANE in low-ANI groups as well as the ANE and Steppe_EMBA in high-ANI groups -- all while keeping WHG low everywhere and retaining Iran N. The reason I think ANE has got to be sourced via [something] + pre-AMT IVC and not [something] + Onge/ENA (before the IVC) is that it can't be tied to ASI either, otherwise higher ASI would also mean higher ANE. I don't tie it to [something] + Steppe_EMBA, because then ANE is tied exclusively to ANI, and we'd still need a source for ANE in low-ANI populations. So it needs to be tied to Iran_N, the only component ANI and IVC can source independently of each other, and thus people in Northern and Southern populations can have an abundance of without interaction with one another. Simplest answer is Iran_Hotu, but it's probably something more involved.

Nailed it m8 - the best explanation so far

Your theory of Indo-Dravidian (Iran_N + ANE + Onge + ENA) later admixed with ANI (Steppe EMBA + Iran_N) makes a lot of sense also supports the Moorjani finding of the primary difference between IA and Dravidians are that IA populations received a later admixture event - which brought ANI or additional ANI

19469

I think im probably the most representative of the Indo-Dravidian (Harappan) component in these forums so far based on admixture - (or Balochs if Rakhigarhi proves to be low ASI) having said that Steppe EMBA (Yamnaya) is also found in Dravidian middle-castes - whats the explanation for this? Just common ANE ancestry being lumped there or actual Steppe EMBA

As @Anthroin mentioned above earlier ANE could be associated with the R2 haplogroup in South Asia

bmoney
10-30-2017, 12:56 AM
this is likely the case even after taking into consideration the possibility that the earliest satem dialect-speaking Indo-Europeans of India did come from a very early migration (compared to the traditional date of 1900 BC) directly from the Yamna steppe (and were the people of IVC and all that). And if I may speculate quite indiscriminately here, there may be a remote possibility that Iran_Hotu (whom I consider a central Asian guy really, at least going by his location) with its Iran_N+ANE was the genetic signature of the earliest Dravidian speakers (no idea whatsoever how the numbers add up though, i.e. the distribution of ANE in modern populations and all that, the Dravidian area is generally thought to be the south of India plus Maharashtra and the areas where the South Dravidian-II languages like Gondi and Central Dravidian languages of Parji, etc. are being spoken now- the northern limit for a predominantly Dravidian language distribution perhaps may have been Malwa in central India with occasional pockets in Punjab or Sindh as seen by the loan words in Vedic and others), if the high percentages of (CHG+EHG aka Steppe_EMBA) currently being modelled in south Indians are correct. That may perhaps also explain the here-and-there lexical links that Dravidian seems to have with Uralic- linguist F.C. Southworth in his "Linguistic Archaeology of South Asia" connects words such as PDr *cAL, a kinship term with meanings such as 'wife's brother, son-in-law, etc.' (which is also thought by some to be the source in India of the Indo-Aryan Sanskrit SyAla, Hindi sAlA, 'wife's brother', etc.) with Uralic words like Finnish käly, 'husband's sister, wife's sister' (Of course there is the possibility that both Uralic and Dravidian independently borrowed the word in question from Indo-Aryan but the word is currently very deeply rooted within Dravidian- so if the direction was from Indo-Aryan/Indo-European to Dravidian then it has to be at a much older date, even at the Proto-Dravidian stage, which opens up a set of problems regarding the antiquity of Dravidian in India). Other examples include PDr *muñAl, 'hare', Uralic Lappish-Norwegian njoammel, 'hare', Mordwin numolo 'hare', and PDr *ñamil 'peacock' with Uralic Samoyed ñIberu, Ostyak-Samoyed ñimere. If these lexical connections between Uralic and Dravidian are legitimate, then it may indicate a contact of Dravidian with Uralic in a very distant past and there is a possibility that this could have happened in or nearby Turkmenistan/Afghanistan.

In such a case, the Iran_N seen in south Indians may have, hypothetically, come from the post-collapse IVC who language-shifted to Dravidian in south India (though there is currently no archaeological evidence for such a movement of IVC people into the South-Dravidian-speaking area, i.e. the five states of south India; the IVC people extended just until Maharashtra in the south and east into the Gangetic plains, whether pre-collapse or post-collapse of their urban phase.)

Then there is Y-DNA haplogroup R2 also, which is distributed quite throughout the subcontinent, especially in India and which does not appear to be connected to the Indo-Aryan migrations, whenever the Indo-Aryans may have come. Sure some may have come from BMAC-type places during and after neolithic began, but there is so much R2 in deep southern groups like Irula also. It almost appears that the R2 seen in south Indian Brahmins and the Irula have very different histories- the former may have been more recent compared to the latter; it also appears that the R2 in Irula may be alongside or just slightly newer than the original C and H (which itself is likely later than the C) haplogroups of the Irulas (and other archaic south Indian groups, most of whom likely don't exist today). I don't know how R2 relates to the hypothetical early Dravidian speakers though; because it is present in significant quantities in eastern India where Dravidian languages had no significant presence during any points in prehistory. But please don't take my thoughts on this matter seriously at all, as I know next to nothing about the subject other than the superficialities I noted and the paragraph also includes many wild speculations.

Finally, I wish you guys all the best for your ANE problem though. Hopefully, some high amount of mesolithic era ANE comes to be seen in Afghanistan and surrounds as you expect.

Very plausible based on linguistic evidence - Yamnaya peoples (possible R2 y-dna) might have migrated to the IVC before the IE languages were developed.

Also migrations without archaeological tracks can happen, if R1a1-z93 can be one of the biggest haplogroups in Kerala and religion changed to Hinduism, a Dravidian migration to south and east India is possible even if its further south than any IVC archaeological site - maybe a peaceful merge with an existing Onge like peoples which explains the high SE Eurasian % seen in the south and east along with a language shift. These people also went East to Bengal as Bengal itself is meant to be named after a Dravidian tribe and this also explains the Iran_N component in Bengal: theories on the origin of the term Banga point to the Proto-Dravidian Bong tribe that settled in the area circa 1000 BCE and the Austric word Bong (Sun-god).[21][22]

Dravidian is proposed as the earliest split from the proto Eurasiatic superfamily probably spoken in Central Asia, so this can explain the specific areal features common to Uralic IE and Dravidian due to common geography of proto-speakers

19470

Paper here: http://www.pnas.org/content/110/21/8471.full thanks @Observer

anthroin
10-30-2017, 01:59 AM
Very plausible based on linguistic evidence - Yamnaya peoples (possible R2 y-dna) might have migrated to the IVC before the IE languages were developed.

Also migrations without archaeological tracks can happen, if R1a1-z93 can be one of the biggest haplogroups in Kerala and religion changed to Hinduism, a Dravidian migration to south and east India is possible even if its further south than any IVC archaeological site - maybe a merge with an existing Onge like peoples which explains the high SE Eurasian % seen in the south and east along with a language shift. These people also went East to Bengal as Bengal itself is meant to be named after a Dravidian tribe and this also explains the Iran_N component in Bengal: theories on the origin of the term Banga point to the Proto-Dravidian Bong tribe that settled in the area circa 1000 BCE and the Austric word Bong (Sun-god).[21][22]

Dravidian is proposed as the earliest split from the proto Eurasiatic superfamily probably spoken in Central Asia

19470

Paper here: http://www.pnas.org/content/110/21/8471.full thanks @Observer

But the thing is that R2 appears to have no strong links with either the Indo-European R1a or the European R1b. As far as I learned from going through these forums, they found no R2 so far in all these Indo-European prehistoric sites in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and the later extensions like Corded Ware, etc. Maybe it has something to do with not finding the right R2 guy, but still, the distribution of R2 and the mechanism of its spread in India, for example, seems to indicate that its pretty much not connected with R1a in India (again my knowledge courtesy Anthrogenica). There are wonderful discussions about R2 in this forum- you will find them very informative and enlightening, I'm sure- go through the R2 subforum and also do a general search for R2 and enjoy. But you have to be content with just a vAZappaZam though, the ONa sadya (edit : let's just make it some generic sadya-why attach the spiritually important ONa sadya with the haplogroup discussion forums?)you may get only in R1b and R1a subforums. (And I personally didn't dare to enter those R1a and R1b subforums as I'm not that interested in those haplogroups personally. Perhaps because R2 is "another R" or for some other reason (of course the remark I made in jest majorly), discussions on it seem to me to be high compared to other haplogroups of interest to me like H and L.)

You are perhaps true about the migrations and archaeological trails-part. But still, there are certain things very detectable I think, based on details whether it is agricultural people vs. pastoralists who are migrating. For example, agriculturalists, especially settled ones, may migrate making settlements along the way, while pastoralist settlements are fewer and likely to be of a more low scale and temporary nature. In fact, archaeologist Dorian Fuller argues something similar to this to explain the lack of archaeological trail from western, central and northwestern India or beyond into the southern Deccan to support his Dravidians = Southern Neolithic = Mesolithics-turned pastoralists and savanna cultivators from pre-Indus Gujarat idea. Anyway, leaving that frustrating topic aside, in the case of Late Harappan phase, i.e. after 1900 BC, Indus-related settlements increased a lot in the Gangetic plains. This is seen as the eastward movement of the agriculturalists of the Indus valley into the Gangetic regions. And that appears not to have happened in south India (which also did not have any Indus-related cultural features to it to begin with). Anyway, I definitely acknowledge that your scenario is definitely possible.

And who are these Dravidian Bong tribe? I don't know about them. Could you please give me a reference?

About the Eurasiatic, as a devoted amateur linguistics student (very superficially only though, at the same time), I personally reject long range genetic super family proposals like Eurasiatic, Nostratic, etc. While I don't deny the possibility of existence of Nostratic in remote times, I don't think the amount of evidence available now permits us to establish such connections with the amount of confidence required in science. Too many languages of the world died and are dying and have been dying! Quite undeniably so, don't you think? Take Konda for example- its phonology is considered to be the most conservative in South Dravidian-II to which Telugu belongs and Telugu is notorious for its liberalism in these matters. So if God forbid Konda becomes extinct, won't Proto-South-Dravidian-II reconstruction be more difficult and with less confidence than in the case with having it? Pengo with its 2000 speakers, I read, has some of the most stable vowels in Dravidian languages. And Nihali which is not apparently connected to any known language in the world has 2500 speakers. Imagine how many languages would have died out in the neolithic and how difficult it would be to try to posit such long range macrofamilies and establish cognacy between all these disparate language families, with the required confidence, but with loads of lost, unrecoverable data. It is also the case that languages change like anything, always. Also, the Uralic-Dravidian connections I gave did not have anything to do with these superfamilies and I also wrote that what I had been doing with these hypothetical Uralic-Dravidian lexical connections is something that is too speculative. While Professor Southworth in his book entertains the possibility (yes, just possibility) of a genetic connection of Uralic with Dravidian, I, along with him, interpreted these examples as possibly being arisen from a contact situation at some archaic point in prehistory, and chance resemblance is not out of the window too. My conservatism is perhaps extreme, but at least Uralo-Dravidian or Elamo-Dravidian or a Uralo-Elamo-Dravidian and the Nostratic family are not some established language families in the historical linguistics mainstream currently.

parasar
10-30-2017, 03:24 AM
But the thing is that R2 appears to have no strong links with either the Indo-European R1a or the European R1b. As far as I learned from going through these forums, they found no R2 so far in all these Indo-European prehistoric sites in the Pontic-Caspian steppe and the later extensions like Corded Ware, etc. Maybe it has something to do with not finding the right R2 guy, but still, the distribution of R2 and the mechanism of its spread in India, for example, seems to indicate that its pretty much not connected with R1a in India (again my knowledge courtesy Anthrogenica). There are wonderful discussions about R2 in this forum- you will find them very informative and enlightening, I'm sure- go through the R2 subforum and also do a general search for R2 and enjoy ...

True we have not yet found R2 on the steppe or in Europe as yet, but I have been convinced since the Myres* paper that there has been disparate expansions. We have some old R1b lines in southern Asia and some old R2 lines in Europe. R1a1 is the only one that had a major expansion both in Europe and in southern Asia.

*http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer&p=110144&viewfull=1#post110144

anthroin
10-30-2017, 04:20 AM
True we have not yet found R2 on the steppe or in Europe as yet, but I have been convinced since the Myres* paper that there has been disparate expansions. We have some old R1b lines in southern Asia and some old R2 lines in Europe. R1a1 is the only one that had a major expansion both in Europe and in southern Asia.

*http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1646-Genome-of-a-late-Neolithic-Iberian-farmer&p=110144&viewfull=1#post110144

I am not at all competent enough to address what you wrote above but I guess my major problem is the seeming deeprootedness and ancientness of R2 in tribal groups- Irula or the Karmali of West Bengal (who may have had bottlenecks or drift or something which the Telugu-speaking and farming Kamma, Kapu, etc. of coastal Andhra also had perhaps; but I do remember reading you connecting R2s of Andhra with Satavahanas and other Indo-Aryans; even if the R2s you had in mind were some other different groups than these farming castes); but one thing that appears to me is that it is very unlikely that the south Indian tribal groups got the R2 (or whatever Indo-Aryan related haplogroups) from Indo-Aryans directly. For the R2 to have come from Indo-Aryans, it would have to first get into Dravidian middle (non-Brahmin upper) castes or something and then get into the tribals, the likelihood of which I'm not competent to evaluate. So for me, your scenario is definitely possible in theory, though I'd personally be inclined to consider evaluations presented by users (administrators) like DMXX, Tomasso29, etc. as looking probable.

DMXX
10-30-2017, 06:06 AM
I've commented on Y-DNA R2-M479 several times over the past few years. We haven't had much development in that time:



Myres et al. did find R2*-M479 scattered all across West and Central Eurasia at low frequencies (e.g. northern Italy, Ossetia, Pakistan).

I think parasar's perspective on this (which he's shared several times over the years since DNA-Forums) is partially based on one of the older papers on Subcontinental Y-DNA (Sahoo et al. from memory?), which concluded that R1a1a and R2a had a certain degree of association with one another in terms of frequency. In northern India, for instance, when R1a1a frequency is higher in one group, R2a tends to exhibit a similar trend, albeit at lesser frequencies. I vaguely recall Sharma et al.'s data demonstrated this as well.

The problem with this perspective is it completely ignores both Y-STR and Y-SNP data and focuses purely on frequency:
Y-SNPs: As Megalophias points out, the absolute majority of South Asian R1a1a is Z93+. There appears to be no such replication here with respect to R2a, where (based on current data) the southern half of India is mostly L295+ and the north is mostly L295- (I should also mention L295- is the predominant form in West and Central Asia).
Y-STRs: The majority of Indian R1a1a share at least a 10-12 STR haplotype, which is shared (either fully or mostly) with European R1a1a. Again, there is no such replication here with respect to R2a. My own private work on the subclade's phylogenetic structure shows plenty of cluster diversity in India, even if one were to focus on L295- alone.

Clearly, based on the above, R1a1a and R2a in the Indian Subcontinent cannot be inextricably linked to one another in an absolute sense, as those earlier paper(s) indicated. The MRCA dating just makes this proposition even more implausible.

This leaves us with at least three potentially mutually inclusive possibilities:
- Some of the R2a-M124 L295- (alongside L1c-M357, J2-M172 plus others?) in northern India were carried by Iron Age Indo-Aryans after their ancestor's passage through both the BMAC and the IVC.
- The frequency mirroring between R1a1a and R2a was a statistical anomaly due to chance sample capture
- R2a-M124 was in fact the most dominant subclade in pre-Indo Aryan north India and its' usual "secondary" position is simply a function of proportional reduction

Due to the presence of R1a1a-M17, L1c-M357, J2a-M410 and R2a-M124 in practically every region outside of the steppes where Indo-Iranian languages are (or were) spoken (including the Pamirs), I've favoured the first option for several years. Though it could be wrong.

Regarding R2a-M124 L295-'s status, we certainly need more data to see if any STR star clusters form with an MRCA no older than 4kya. Last I checked three years ago, haven't found anything resembling this just yet.


It has been my view for some time that the Y-DNA R2 and mtDNA U2c in SC and S Asia are northern Central Asian/Siberian introductions stemming from the paleolithic. Such a population would, most certainly, be chock-full of ANE.

I'm going to predict that we will not find any R2-M479+ in the EMBA or LNBA with extant branches anywhere in Eurasia. Instead, I predict we'll find rather some divergent forms of R2-M479 (mostly M124-) across the Eurasian steppelands going back to the paleolithic.

Zayd
10-30-2017, 12:53 PM
Very plausible based on linguistic evidence - Yamnaya peoples (possible R2 y-dna) might have migrated to the IVC before the IE languages were developed.

Also migrations without archaeological tracks can happen, if R1a1-z93 can be one of the biggest haplogroups in Kerala and religion changed to Hinduism, a Dravidian migration to south and east India is possible even if its further south than any IVC archaeological site - maybe a peaceful merge with an existing Onge like peoples which explains the high SE Eurasian % seen in the south and east along with a language shift. These people also went East to Bengal as Bengal itself is meant to be named after a Dravidian tribe and this also explains the Iran_N component in Bengal: theories on the origin of the term Banga point to the Proto-Dravidian Bong tribe that settled in the area circa 1000 BCE and the Austric word Bong (Sun-god).[21][22]

Dravidian is proposed as the earliest split from the proto Eurasiatic superfamily probably spoken in Central Asia, so this can explain the specific areal features common to Uralic IE and Dravidian due to common geography of proto-speakers

19470

Paper here: http://www.pnas.org/content/110/21/8471.full thanks @Observer

The word Bong/Bonga is a Santhali word and It means Demigod/God/Spirit. I remember, few years ago in a bengali radio program about supernatural entities, a Santhal women talked about a specific demigod named Gudro-Bonga(or Dwarf-Demigod), though I dont know if the word Gudro is an Indo aryan loanword or Austroasiatic as in bengali "Khudro" means small. A post IVC dravidian migration toward Bengal is very possible anyway, but first we need confermation if there existed any pre IVC ANI components.

poi
11-03-2017, 04:02 AM
# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 48.17
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 13.93
3 SE_Asian 12.65
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 11.05
5 WHG 9.08
6 Siberian_E_Asian 2.28
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 1.92
8 SW_Asian 0.92
What does this all mean?
BTW I am a Nepali Bahun.

I'm same ethnicity as you, but with completely different breakdown beyond the top 2 (CHG and ASI).

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 46.60
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 15.52
3 SE_Asian 9.73
4 Siberian_E_Asian 8.24
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.87
6 SW_Asian 6.31
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 4.15
8 WHG 2.58

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 01:07 AM
I'm same ethnicity as you, but with completely different breakdown beyond the top 2 (CHG and ASI).

# Population Percent
1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 46.60
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 15.52
3 SE_Asian 9.73
4 Siberian_E_Asian 8.24
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 6.87
6 SW_Asian 6.31
7 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 4.15
8 WHG 2.58
That’s cool! Sorry for the late reply! Why do think our results are not exactly consistent beyond the Indian components (top 2)?

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 01:29 AM
Are you from the Chitwan district? from Wiki regarding y-dna r1a1a: Hindus of Chitwan District in the Terai region Nepal show it at 69% which is some of the highest levels recorded among castes in South Asia.

My guess is that you have a relatively high level of descent from the Indo-Aryans/Steppe given that your EHG+WHG is at nearly 20%

SE Asian is probably high from the level of Sino-Tibetan admixture generally seen in Nepalis, but you wouldn't be anywhere near what Newaris from the Kathmandu Valley would show it at.

I used to work with a Nepali Hindu with light brown hair and freckled fair skin. Looked very much like a Pamiri/Tajik, and he probably would score similar to you.

Punjabis in contrast look more Iranian than European as they have more IVC ancestry

Sorry for the late reply. Khas Brahmins can sometimes exhibit lighter or darker tendencies. I was born with sandy brown hair and lighter skin (olive pale). It is interesting you describe your coworker to be Tajik looking because “Khas” people were said to migrate from the mountains of Tajikistan. Anyways, no I am not from Chitawan, I am from Western Nepal from a district called Gulmi. You can look it up. Also Nepalis can get freckles, although not common. Some of my family members do have that, including myself but they only are in small amounts in my case. Also, would Nepali Brahmins look more Iranian, European or Sino-Tibetan? Just curious! Lol

bmoney
11-24-2017, 02:34 AM
Sorry for the late reply. Khas Brahmins can sometimes exhibit lighter or darker tendencies. I was born with sandy brown hair and lighter skin (olive pale). It is interesting you describe your coworker to be Tajik looking because “Khas” people were said to migrate from the mountains of Tajikistan. Anyways, no I am not from Chitawan, I am from Western Nepal from a district called Gulmi. You can look it up. Also Nepalis can get freckles, although not common. Some of my family members do have that, including myself but they only are in small amounts in my case. Also, would Nepali Brahmins look more Iranian, European or Sino-Tibetan? Just curious! Lol

Most Indo-Aryan Nepalis IMO won't pass for a Sikh Punjabi or Punjabi Pakistani but definitely could pass for high steppe like pops like India like Kashmiri Pandits or Himachal people maybe Tajik even - I wouldnt say European but definitely steppe like ie common ancestry to SC Asians and Europeans

I guess in admixture terms this would translate as less Iran_N, high steppe, and relatively higher Siberan + E Asian

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 02:44 AM
Most Indo-Aryan Nepalis IMO won't pass for a Sikh Punjabi or Punjabi Pakistani but definitely could pass for high steppe like pops like India like Kashmiri Pandits or Himachal people maybe Tajik even - I wouldnt say European but definitely steppe like ie common ancestry to SC Asians and Europeans

I guess in admixture terms this would translate as less Iran_N, high steppe, and relatively higher Siberan + E Asian + SE Asian

So we are basically less Iranian and relatively higher Euro and NE Asian? Also, how do my results compare to other South Asian populations? Thanks!

pnb123
11-24-2017, 02:58 AM
Most Indo-Aryan Nepalis IMO won't pass for a Sikh Punjabi or Punjabi Pakistani but definitely could pass for high steppe like pops like India like Kashmiri Pandits or Himachal people maybe Tajik even - I wouldnt say European but definitely steppe like ie common ancestry to SC Asians and Europeans

I guess in admixture terms this would translate as less Iran_N, high steppe, and relatively higher Siberan + E Asian + SE Asian

SE Asian is not the kind of mongoloid admixture Nepali brahmins have. It's a Tibetid type & in the range of 1-5%. I think Siberian admixture came with Steppe type people, who contributed to other NW Indians too.

bmoney
11-24-2017, 04:09 AM
SE Asian is not the kind of mongoloid admixture Nepali brahmins have. It's a Tibetid type & in the range of 1-5%. I think Siberian admixture came with Steppe type people, who contributed to other NW Indians too.

Yes you are right its not SE Asian, I will edit my post earlier

EDIT: i think there is NE Asian for a certain amount of Nep Brahmins are from Tibeto Burman contact and not steppe -E Asian levels are higher for poi >8% but gyanwali is a typical Indian Pahari if not more steppe shifted - NW Indians will not score that high Siberian. Parasar whos closest to Nep Brahmins geographically and caste wise scores none same with NW Indian MonkeyDluffy.

Bengalis along with Nepalis also have Siberian E Asian at 5% and above

bmoney
11-24-2017, 04:11 AM
So we are basically less Iranian and relatively higher Euro and NE Asian? Also, how do my results compare to other South Asian populations? Thanks!

Use the oracle on K9ASI that will tell you - post your top 10 matches

Magnetic
11-24-2017, 04:14 AM
lol I love how in such threads where the OP asks something about his result ..other people suddenly post their own :lol:

ok why not here is mine

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent

1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 37.28
2 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 22.35
3 SW_Asian 20.75
4 WHG 7.95
5 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 5.37
6 SE_Asian 2.53
7 Siberian_E_Asian 1.91
8 Ancestral_South_Indian 1.86

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance

1 Azeri 3.37
2 Kurd_N 5.79
3 Iranian 6.57
4 Georgian 7.48
5 Abkhasian 7.66
6 Turkish 8.54
7 Armenian 8.58
8 Azeri_Dagestan 8.61
9 Adygei 8.83
10 Kumyk 9.31
11 Georgian_Jew 10.02
12 Chechen 11.11
13 Kurd_C 11.42
14 Iranian_Jew 12.07
15 Lezgin 13.38
16 Druze 16.16
17 Iraqi_Jew 16.34
18 Lebanese 17.1
19 Cypriot 17.41
20 Syrian 17.42

Angoliga
11-24-2017, 04:55 AM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 W_African 91.28
2 SW_Asian 4.3
3 SE_Asian 2.24
4 Ancestral_South_Indian 1.97
5 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 0.2

Oracle

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Esan 10.87
2 Yoruba 10.87
3 MOTA 12.72
4 Masai 29.17
5 Ust_Ishim 94.21
6 Yemen 95.25
7 BedouinA 102.2
8 Jordanian 103.73
9 Syrian 104.5
10 Papuan 106.02
11 Lebanese 106.18
12 Turkmen_Afghan 107.13
13 Maltese 107.32
14 Turkmen 107.33
15 Uzbek 107.67
16 Turkish 108.45
17 Hazara_Afghan 108.66
18 Uzbek_Afghan 108.74
19 Sicilian 108.83
20 Tajik_Afghan 109.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 54.1% Yoruba + 45.9% MOTA @ 2.34
2 54.1% Esan + 45.9% MOTA @ 2.34
3 73.8% Yoruba + 26.2% Masai @ 3.46
4 73.8% Esan + 26.2% Masai @ 3.46
5 91.8% Esan + 8.2% Saudi @ 3.67
6 91.8% Yoruba + 8.2% Saudi @ 3.67
7 90.3% Esan + 9.7% Yemen @ 3.75
8 90.3% Yoruba + 9.7% Yemen @ 3.75
9 91.6% Yoruba + 8.4% Yemenite_Jew @ 3.86
10 91.6% Esan + 8.4% Yemenite_Jew @ 3.86
11 91% Esan + 9% BedouinA @ 3.91
12 91% Yoruba + 9% BedouinA @ 3.91
13 90.3% Esan + 9.7% Ust_Ishim @ 3.97
14 90.3% Yoruba + 9.7% Ust_Ishim @ 3.97
15 91.2% Esan + 8.8% Jordanian @ 4.32
16 91.2% Yoruba + 8.8% Jordanian @ 4.32
17 91.3% Yoruba + 8.7% Syrian @ 4.32
18 91.3% Esan + 8.7% Syrian @ 4.32
19 91.4% Yoruba + 8.6% Papuan @ 4.43
20 91.4% Esan + 8.6% Papuan @ 4.43

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 05:10 AM
Use the oracle on K9ASI that will tell you - post your top 10 matches

Burusho 6.48
2 Punjabi 10.66
3 Pathan 10.68
4 Pashtun_Afghan 12.71
5 Kurd_SE 16
6 Tajik_Afghan 16.09
7 Kalash 16.15
8 Tajik_Pomiri 16.44
9 Uzbek_Afghan 17.65
10 Bengali 17.75
11 Balochi 20.9
12 Brahui 21.6
13 Makrani 22.87
14 Hazara_Afghan 23.09
15 Lezgin 27.76
16 KOTIAS 28.89
17 Azeri_Dagestan 29.35
18 Turkmen 29.47
19 Chechen 29.56
20 Turkmen_Afghan 30.03

pnb123
11-24-2017, 06:19 AM
Yes you are right its not SE Asian, I will edit my post earlier

EDIT: i think there is NE Asian for a certain amount of Nep Brahmins are from Tibeto Burman contact and not steppe -E Asian levels are higher for poi >8% but gyanwali is a typical Indian Pahari if not more steppe shifted - NW Indians will not score that high Siberian. Parasar whos closest to Nep Brahmins geographically and caste wise scores none same with NW Indian MonkeyDluffy.

Bengalis along with Nepalis also have Siberian E Asian at 5% and above

Yes, Poi deviates from us. I have around 3% Siberian and Gyanwali has 2% in this calculator. It almost seems that Poi's WHG is taken away by Siberian admixture. Maybe Siberian admixture in this calculator captures some of the Tibeto-Burman component. If you compare my results & Gyanwali's results, they look pretty much similar with 1-2% difference.

1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 45.28
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 14.25
3 SE_Asian 11.24
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 10.69
5 WHG 7.14
6 SW_Asian 4.32
7 Siberian_E_Asian 3.42
8 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.71

Also, I should have been clearer that I was talking about the Siberian component from HarappaWorld admixture. Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Even though Parasar and us both belong to Brahmin group & live in close proximity, we have been separated by Himalayas for a really long time. Our migration was from the West & it has been said that we only started appearing in Nepal around 1200 AD, but it is unknown where exactly we migrated from.

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 12:51 PM
Yes, Poi deviates from us. I have around 3% Siberian and Gyanwali has 2% in this calculator. It almost seems that Poi's WHG is taken away by Siberian admixture. Maybe Siberian admixture in this calculator captures some of the Tibeto-Burman component. If you compare my results & Gyanwali's results, they look pretty much similar with 1-2% difference.

1 Caucausus_Hunter_Gatherer 45.28
2 Ancestral_South_Indian 14.25
3 SE_Asian 11.24
4 Eastern_Hunter_Gatherer 10.69
5 WHG 7.14
6 SW_Asian 4.32
7 Siberian_E_Asian 3.42
8 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 2.71

Also, I should have been clearer that I was talking about the Siberian component from HarappaWorld admixture. Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l87nGSIYTP-h7m-VKjB-BZcuEoWdz765nU4f_krOdd4/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Even though Parasar and us both belong to Brahmin group & live in close proximity, we have been separated by Himalayas for a really long time. Our migration was from the West & it has been said that we only started appearing in Nepal around 1200 AD, but it is unknown where exactly we migrated from.

Some Brahmins migrated directly north into the himalaya from the plains to escape Muslim invasions. Anything other than that, I dont know!

poi
11-24-2017, 05:33 PM
Some Brahmins migrated directly north into the himalaya from the plains to escape Muslim invasions. Anything other than that, I dont know!

I think due to the aversion to Khas ancestry, when the British were writing history for all of us during the early colonial years, there was a preference for descendency from the cultured Indo-Gangetic plain brahmins rather than the rustic western Himalayan hill brahmins. The Nepali rulers, bahuns and chettris, of the time started their transition away from western and Khas to southern and Gangetic.

poi
11-24-2017, 05:41 PM
Yes you are right its not SE Asian, I will edit my post earlier

EDIT: i think there is NE Asian for a certain amount of Nep Brahmins are from Tibeto Burman contact and not steppe -E Asian levels are higher for poi >8% but gyanwali is a typical Indian Pahari if not more steppe shifted - NW Indians will not score that high Siberian. Parasar whos closest to Nep Brahmins geographically and caste wise scores none same with NW Indian MonkeyDluffy.

Bengalis along with Nepalis also have Siberian E Asian at 5% and above

In my case, a more direct Tibetan admixture would be detected by 23andme, right? They are calling me 99.8% 'South Asian'. So, my Siberian East Asian must be either indirect or pretty far back in time. Or should I just ignore 23andme lol?

gyanwali
11-24-2017, 06:16 PM
In my case, a more direct Tibetan admixture would be detected by 23andme, right? They are calling me 99.8% 'South Asian'. So, my Siberian East Asian must be either indirect or pretty far back in time. Or should I just ignore 23andme lol?

It may be farther back, as people did intermix before the arrival of the caste system.

pnb123
11-24-2017, 08:32 PM
Some Brahmins migrated directly north into the himalaya from the plains to escape Muslim invasions. Anything other than that, I dont know!

Yes, that's possible & they must've mixed with brahmins living in the hills. So, it can be said that brahmins of the hills are primarily formed from mixing of various brahmins that started migrating to the hills from the plains over the course of hundreds of years. Otherwise, it would not be possible for them to be brahmins, if they were not brahmins in the first place. But the intermixing must've stopped at some point because now we don't mix with any other brahmin tribes and we also don't remember our ancestors marrying freely with brahmins of other tribes freely.
Based on admixtures, it can be said that hill & other brahmins that lived to the West of us got some extra West Asian admixture, which I think we didn't get. But we also were able to preserve better steppe ancestry than them. If you look at HarappaWorld admixtures of Nepali brahmins, you will see that we score higher NE Euro than Caucasian, but Jammu/Himachal/Kashmiri brahmins are getting higher Caucasian than NE Euro. But Punjabi brahmins for some reasons are still getting higher NE Euro than Caucasian. Here's the link:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XGY-UIBC2GcUWGl1FizNvu9ofle4ZPHvfNmbrVYxGMo/edit#gid=6

pnb123
11-24-2017, 08:44 PM
In my case, a more direct Tibetan admixture would be detected by 23andme, right? They are calling me 99.8% 'South Asian'. So, my Siberian East Asian must be either indirect or pretty far back in time. Or should I just ignore 23andme lol?

23andme is only good for tracing ancestries for less than 500 years in time. So not that accurate.

gyanwali
11-25-2017, 08:02 PM
Yes you are right its not SE Asian, I will edit my post earlier

EDIT: i think there is NE Asian for a certain amount of Nep Brahmins are from Tibeto Burman contact and not steppe -E Asian levels are higher for poi >8% but gyanwali is a typical Indian Pahari if not more steppe shifted - NW Indians will not score that high Siberian. Parasar whos closest to Nep Brahmins geographically and caste wise scores none same with NW Indian MonkeyDluffy.

Bengalis along with Nepalis also have Siberian E Asian at 5% and above

What do you mean by steppe-shifted?

bmoney
11-26-2017, 12:30 AM
What do you mean by steppe-shifted?

component is called NE Euro, EHG, WHG in various calcs, Nepali Brahmins in general are one of the most steppe Indo-Aryan groups in South Asia minus Afghanistan

Would you guys know how Chettris (Kshatriyas) compare to you guys - im guessing there is more of a Siberian shift due to more mixing

One of Indias best ever football players is Sunil Chettri, he looks E Asian shifted

gyanwali
11-26-2017, 01:45 AM
component is called NE Euro, EHG, WHG in various calcs, Nepali Brahmins in general are one of the most steppe Indo-Aryan groups in South Asia minus Afghanistan

Would you guys know how Chettris (Kshatriyas) compare to you guys - im guessing there is more of a Siberian shift due to more mixing

One of Indias best ever football players is Sunil Chettri, he looks E Asian shifted

They are more mixed than Brahmins. Guessing that they have a lot more East Asian because even tribals (rai, limbu, magar) and Chhetris make Chhetri. What does steppe ancestry signify though? Also, are you sure Nepali Brahmins score amoung the most steppe ancestry? I only score about 11% on my K9, which is pretty insignificant!

bmoney
11-26-2017, 02:18 AM
They are more mixed than Brahmins. Guessing that they have a lot more East Asian because even tribals (rai, limbu, magar) and Chhetris make Chhetri. What does steppe ancestry signify though? Also, are you sure Nepali Brahmins score amoung the most steppe ancestry? I only score about 11% on my K9, which is pretty insignificant!

Look at the Kurd K12 ancients forum at other South Asian samples - I think khana has a spreadsheet of forum members, you can see the steppe breakdown scythian + yamnaya + andronovo

pnb123
11-26-2017, 03:05 AM
They are more mixed than Brahmins. Guessing that they have a lot more East Asian because even tribals (rai, limbu, magar) and Chhetris make Chhetri. What does steppe ancestry signify though? Also, are you sure Nepali Brahmins score amoung the most steppe ancestry? I only score about 11% on my K9, which is pretty insignificant!

I think WHG could also be considered part of our steppe ancestry, as the migration occurred to South Asia thru the Central Asian steppe. I think high steppe ancestry is related to Indo-Aryan migration & Scythian migration to South Asia.

gyanwali
11-26-2017, 03:35 AM
I think WHG could also be considered part of our steppe ancestry, as the migration occurred to South Asia thru the Central Asian steppe. I think high steppe ancestry is related to Indo-Aryan migration & Scythian migration to South Asia.

Do you think Scythians contributed to the Nepali gene pool? Lol

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 03:55 AM
Bruh so far Punjabis scored really high steppe on kurd’s k12. My scores ain’t that different from sapporo on it and yet he looks very punjabi jatt kind I look more east asian than a bangladeshi/filipino. Genetics are weird. My elder brother who has same genetics as me lacks small eyes and looks afghan/paki to everyone.

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 04:12 AM
Bruh so far Punjabis scored really high steppe on kurd’s k12. My scores ain’t that different from sapporo on it and yet he looks very punjabi jatt kind I look more east asian than a bangladeshi/filipino. Genetics are weird. My elder brother who has same genetics as me lacks small eyes and looks afghan/paki to everyone.

lol some Afghan ethnic groups have small eyes.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 04:16 AM
lol some Afghan ethnic groups have small eyes.

I know jiiii, I meant in terms of stereotypical look. You’ve seen my brother, he looks like rukha lol

pnb123
11-26-2017, 04:18 AM
Do you think Scythians contributed to the Nepali gene pool? Lol

Possible, as Scythian samples had NE Euro & Gedrosia as their main component. Scythians were like Yamnaya & Andronovo people genetically with tad bits of East Eurasian component.

jesus
11-26-2017, 04:21 AM
I know jiiii, I meant in terms of stereotypical look. You’ve seen my brother, he looks like rukha lol

Agreed. But I think 40-50% of afghans are at least 15% east Eurasian(steppe and Turko Mongol related). That gives them a unique look.

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 04:26 AM
Agreed. But I think 40-50% of afghans are at least 15% east Eurasian(steppe and Turko Mongol related). That gives them a unique look.

ah ha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjIU3wAIqH8

pnb123
11-26-2017, 04:28 AM
Bruh so far Punjabis scored really high steppe on kurd’s k12. My scores ain’t that different from sapporo on it and yet he looks very punjabi jatt kind I look more east asian than a bangladeshi/filipino. Genetics are weird. My elder brother who has same genetics as me lacks small eyes and looks afghan/paki to everyone.

Do you have some recent ancestry from Himalayas? If so, then your small eyes could be due to that ancestry.

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 04:31 AM
Do you have some recent ancestry from Himalayas? If so, then your small eyes could be due to that ancestry.

you mean borealization :biggrin1:
dkm MDL

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 04:32 AM
Do you have some recent ancestry from Himalayas? If so, then your small eyes could be due to that ancestry.

Nope, my mom side is from Doaba and grandmom from Nawan shehr area which is technically doaba. Although I have mentioned it before that Tarkhans have Central Asian connection which shows in my results from time to time. Also Tarkhans score higher NE asian and Siberian (not se asian) as well in comparison to other Punjabis. We’re like a weird blend of High baloch and central asian.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 04:33 AM
you mean borealization :biggrin1:
dkm MDL

You are a bae zahra/

jesus
11-26-2017, 04:35 AM
ah ha

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjIU3wAIqH8

Their dress/music/mannerisms are very Pashtun like (and panjshiri too)

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 04:38 AM
Their dress/music/mannerisms are very Pashtun like (and panjshiri too)

;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udALVHSH9T4

pnb123
11-26-2017, 04:42 AM
you mean borealization :biggrin1:
dkm MDL

Yes and No. Borealization does occur in higher altitudes and also people in Himalayas have elevated East Eurasian admixture compared to people in the plains. You could also have small eyes even if you don't have any East Eurasian ancestry.

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 04:57 AM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bYLJvjkmw

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 05:04 AM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bYLJvjkmw

very scythian culture, massive archaeological treasure content. :D

kush
11-26-2017, 06:14 AM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.

I'm not sure if this is true looking at the genetic aspect. If they did mix in the past, then rest of indians did as well since rest of indians north of us regardless of caste have those components you mentioned in higher proportions. I do agree though some kammas look very north indian shifted and they end up dominating the telugu film industry, but majority of kammas look very stereotypically south indian..

pegasus
11-26-2017, 09:43 AM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bYLJvjkmw

Wow now I know your batshit crazy.

Magnetic
11-26-2017, 09:51 AM
Wow now I know your batshit crazy.

:p

no it is true south india is hungary and armenia admixed . löl

pegasus
11-26-2017, 09:55 AM
Agreed. But I think 40-50% of afghans are at least 15% east Eurasian(steppe and Turko Mongol related). That gives them a unique look.

Its definitely higher in northern areas.

pegasus
11-26-2017, 09:59 AM
19979
19980
NTR Andhras
related to ancient Hurrians

Possibly Assyrians & Akkad first empire

I have seen some crazy posters in my life you definitely win in that category. In the other thread you were linking modern day success to Bronze civilizations which have been dead for almost 4000 years now you are linking an actor to Eneolithic Anatolians? I change my earlier assessment
https://media1.tenor.com/images/c3c89ecf2922e1426689c0b3ba923887/tenor.gif?itemid=7369894

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 02:34 PM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bYLJvjkmw

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/000/115/766/stonercomics.jpg

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 03:28 PM
I'm not sure if this is true looking at the genetic aspect. If they did mix in the past, then rest of indians did as well since rest of indians north of us regardless of caste have those components you mentioned in higher proportions. I do agree though some kammas look very north indian shifted and they end up dominating the telugu film industry, but majority of kammas look very stereotypically south indian..

Not many NorthIndian have very high Hungary bronze age admixture. They score in calculators due to lot of extra ANI/Caucausian elements but not with the actual populations. Only few specific Jat populations/Rajput/Nepali people have this high actual admixture to the published Bronze age

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 03:32 PM
Not many NorthIndian have very high Hungary bronze age admixture. They score in calculators due to lot of extra ANI/Caucausian elements but not with the actual populations. Only few specific Jat populations/Rajput/Nepali people have this high actual admixture to the published Bronze age

Any study or papers for the claim?

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 03:47 PM
Any study or papers for the claim?

Well lot of people in this group wouldn't agree for a formal study since they are well off in the society. Can you ask Jats from small princely estates to give samples for a population study ? Say later If the study has scientific problems then there will be big time problems with publishing etc...

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 03:50 PM
Well lot of people in this group wouldn't agree for a formal study since they are well off in the society. Can you ask Jats from small princely estates to give samples for a population study ? Say later If the study has scientific problems then there will be big time problems with publishing etc...

I'm sorry, but what?

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 03:54 PM
I'm sorry, but what?

Tell me what is need for rich people with big estates to publish study with few Phd students ?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 03:59 PM
Tell me what is need for rich people with big estates to publish study with few Phd students ?

I'm not rich or have big estates lol. I'm simply asking for published papers or genetic studies for your claims. The claims you made should be supported by the genetic results, so if you have kamma people results with elevated "Caucasian" or "Euro", please post them here.

For example, couple of posts earlier I was talking about Central Asian/Sindh connection among tarkhans, which kind of shows in our results via elevated NE asian and Baloch.

1 Baloch 36.49
2 S-Indian 35.15
3 NE-Euro 12.79
4 Caucasian 10.81
5 Siberian 1.72
6 SW-Asian 0.82
7 Beringian 0.75
8 American 0.71
9 NE-Asian 0.62
10 Papuan 0.15

Rip Sohan (Punjabi Tarkhan, Ludhiana)

1 Baloch 40.64
2 S-Indian 31.82
3 Caucasian 12.49
4 NE-Euro 9
5 Mediterranean 1.71
6 SE-Asian 1.57
7 Beringian 1.14
8 American 0.79
9 SW-Asian 0.36
10 San 0.22
11 Papuan 0.17
12 W-African 0.05
13 NE-Asian 0.02
14 E-African 0.01

Punjabi Tarkhan: Amritsar

1 Baloch 38.16
2 S-Indian 32.89
3 NE-Euro 11.48
4 Caucasian 11.2
5 Siberian 1.8
6 NE-Asian 1.28
7 SW-Asian 1.05
8 American 0.94
9 Beringian 0.39
10 Mediterranean 0.32
11 SE-Asian 0.28
12 San 0.19

Punjabi Tarkhan : Amritsar/Jalandhar

1 Baloch 40.14
2 S-Indian 31.51
3 Caucasian 12.78
4 NE-Euro 10.13
5 NE-Asian 2.2
6 Mediterranean 0.99
7 W-African 0.71
8 SW-Asian 0.55
9 American 0.52
10 Beringian 0.26
11 E-African 0.17
12 San 0.04

Punjabi Tarkhan Amritsar/Jalandhar

1 Baloch 40.33
2 S-Indian 32.16
3 Caucasian 11.61
4 NE-Euro 8.62
5 NE-Asian 2.32
6 Mediterranean 1.87
7 Papuan 1.09
8 SW-Asian 1.05
9 Beringian 0.41
10 American 0.38
11 E-African 0.17
12 Siberian 0.01

Punjabi Tarkhan Ambala (Haryana)

1 Baloch 39.77
2 S-Indian 33.32
3 Caucasian 12.55
4 NE-Euro 7.94
5 Mediterranean 1.99
6 NE-Asian 1.44
7 SW-Asian 1.23
8 Beringian 0.84
9 American 0.77
10 San 0.15

Punjabi Tarkhan Hoshiyarpur

1 Baloch 38.67
2 S-Indian 33.1
3 NE-Euro 12.26
4 Caucasian 9.43
5 Mediterranean 1.72
6 American 1.6
7 Beringian 1.32
8 NE-Asian 0.94
9 SE-Asian 0.75
10 E-African 0.19

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 04:13 PM
I'm not rich or have big estates lol. I'm simply asking for published papers or genetic studies for your claims. The claims you made should be supported by the genetic results, so if you have kamma people results with elevated "Caucasian" or "Euro", please post them here.

I posted mine. The kamma groups with U2/HV mtdna I have seen average 700+ cM matches to Hungary samples and LBK samples. There are a lot of informal studies but not a paper as I know of.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 04:22 PM
I posted mine. The kamma groups with U2/HV mtdna I have seen average 700+ cM matches to Hungary samples and LBK samples. There are a lot of informal studies but not a paper as I know of.

Can you post those studies? and the averages you are talking about with 700+CM with hungary and LBK samples. Thanks

gyanwali
11-26-2017, 04:24 PM
Kamma population in south india had huge mixture in past with Scythian, Pallava, Hunas etc with high Armenian bronze age mixture, Hungary mixture, Russian RISE mixture. Even original Andaman/Australian mixture due to Chola empire.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4bYLJvjkmw

Could you be a little more clear on who you are talking about? Who are the Kamma?

kush
11-26-2017, 04:43 PM
Could you be a little more clear on who you are talking about? Who are the Kamma?

Kammas are a non-brahmin group in andhra pradesh, state in southern india. In andhra, they don't have the concrete four varna class system like they do in north india and nepal. We just have brahmins, non-brahmins, and dalits. Kammas, reddys, and velamas are the most dominant non-brahmin caste groups in andhra/telangana and they are somewhere between kshatriya and shudra if we go by their roles in the past since these communities were both farmers and rulers depending on the time. Right now they are landowning castes so kshatriya currently? not sure again since we don't have the strong varna system.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-26-2017, 05:22 PM
Kammas are a non-brahmin group in andhra pradesh, state in southern india. In andhra, they don't have the concrete four varna class system like they do in north india and nepal. We just have brahmins, non-brahmins, and dalits. Kammas, reddys, and velamas are the most dominant non-brahmin caste groups in andhra/telangana and they are somewhere between kshatriya and shudra if we go by their roles in the past since these communities were both farmers and rulers depending on the time. Right now they are landowning castes so kshatriya currently? not sure again since we don't have the strong varna system.

But still those claims are bizzare. At first I thought those were troll attempts but he seems serious.

BMG
11-26-2017, 05:24 PM
I posted mine. The kamma groups with U2/HV mtdna I have seen average 700+ cM matches to Hungary samples and LBK samples. There are a lot of informal studies but not a paper as I know of.
I only have a maximum 100cM match with ftdna familyfinder that too with a guy who is possibly related to me within 4 or 5 generations . So you matching 700cM with some ancient people is either bogus or there might be something wrong with your matching algorithm .

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 06:13 PM
I only have a maximum 100cM match with ftdna familyfinder that too with a guy who is possibly related to me within 4 or 5 generations . So you matching 700cM with some ancient people is either bogus or there might be something wrong with your matching algorithm .

These are 100/1 matches. Usually if you are related these may go high to 1000+

tipirneni
11-26-2017, 06:29 PM
Some South Indian samples

Kamma/ Coastal delta region

RISE552,Russia,4.1ky 189.5 cM
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 660.9 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 751.9 cM
IR1, Hungary, 2.9 ky 57.5 cM


punt k12 ancient

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 62.51
2 Caucasus_HG 29.12
3 Siberian 4.36
4 East_Asian 1.45
5 Oceanian 1.36
6 European_HG 0.49
7 South_African_HG 0.43
8 Amerindian 0.24
9 Anatolian_NF 0.04

Kamma coastal delta Andhra

LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 688.0 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 716.7 cM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 58.44
2 Caucasus_HG 30.25
3 East_Asian 3.66
4 European_HG 2.69
5 Oceanian 1.73
6 Amerindian 1.5
7 Siberian 0.86
8 Anatolian_NF 0.32
9 Beringian 0.28
10 South_African_HG 0.26

Kamma coastal delta Andhra
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 712.8 cM
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 636.5 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 57.13
2 Caucasus_HG 29.41
3 East_Asian 6.68
4 European_HG 3.94
5 Amerindian 1.07
6 Siberian 0.97
7 Oceanian 0.55
8 Near_East 0.24

Kamma coastal delta Andhra
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 574.7 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 650.1 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 60.85
2 Caucasus_HG 30.06
3 Oceanian 2.63
4 Amerindian 2.48
5 East_Asian 2.18
6 European_HG 1
7 Beringian 0.5
8 Siberian 0.28
9 Near_East 0.02

Kamma coastal delta Andhra

br2 487.9 cM
lbk 1,094.9 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 61.92
2 Caucasus_HG 27.95
3 Beringian 2.49
4 Oceanian 1.87
5 East_Asian 1.83
6 Siberian 1.69
7 European_HG 0.99
8 Sub-Saharan 0.8
9 Near_East 0.46



Kamma coastal delta Andhra

br2 665.0 cM
lbk 588.5 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 57.86
2 Caucasus_HG 29.43
3 Near_East 4.48
4 East_Asian 3.63
5 Beringian 1.86
6 Oceanian 1.43
7 Siberian 1.27
8 European_HG 0.05

Reddy Andhra
br2 639.4 cM
lbk 568.9 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 61.77
2 Caucasus_HG 27.78
3 East_Asian 3.24
4 Near_East 1.64
5 Amerindian 1.44
6 European_HG 1.38
7 Oceanian 1.34
8 Beringian 1.14
9 Siberian 0.25
10 Sub-Saharan 0.03

all at 100/1cm setting

at 500/2cm setting the BR2 matches are close to 10cm
late bronze age specimens are close to 5cm

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 07:37 PM
19979
19980
NTR Andhras
related to ancient Hurrians

Possibly Assyrians & Akkad first empire

For your people who are Hurrian descendants?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QpxN2VXPMLc

I hope they still play that hymn wherever your people are from.

gyanwali
11-26-2017, 07:54 PM
Some South Indian samples

Kamma/ Coastal delta region

RISE552,Russia,4.1ky 189.5 cM
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 660.9 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 751.9 cM
IR1, Hungary, 2.9 ky 57.5 cM


punt k12 ancient

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 62.51
2 Caucasus_HG 29.12
3 Siberian 4.36
4 East_Asian 1.45
5 Oceanian 1.36
6 European_HG 0.49
7 South_African_HG 0.43
8 Amerindian 0.24
9 Anatolian_NF 0.04

Kamma coastal delta Andhra

LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 688.0 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 716.7 cM
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 58.44
2 Caucasus_HG 30.25
3 East_Asian 3.66
4 European_HG 2.69
5 Oceanian 1.73
6 Amerindian 1.5
7 Siberian 0.86
8 Anatolian_NF 0.32
9 Beringian 0.28
10 South_African_HG 0.26

Kamma coastal delta Andhra
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 712.8 cM
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 636.5 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 57.13
2 Caucasus_HG 29.41
3 East_Asian 6.68
4 European_HG 3.94
5 Amerindian 1.07
6 Siberian 0.97
7 Oceanian 0.55
8 Near_East 0.24

Kamma coastal delta Andhra
LBK, Stuttgart, 7ky 574.7 cM
BR2, Hungary, 3.2ky 650.1 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 60.85
2 Caucasus_HG 30.06
3 Oceanian 2.63
4 Amerindian 2.48
5 East_Asian 2.18
6 European_HG 1
7 Beringian 0.5
8 Siberian 0.28
9 Near_East 0.02

Kamma coastal delta Andhra

br2 487.9 cM
lbk 1,094.9 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 61.92
2 Caucasus_HG 27.95
3 Beringian 2.49
4 Oceanian 1.87
5 East_Asian 1.83
6 Siberian 1.69
7 European_HG 0.99
8 Sub-Saharan 0.8
9 Near_East 0.46



Kamma coastal delta Andhra

br2 665.0 cM
lbk 588.5 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 57.86
2 Caucasus_HG 29.43
3 Near_East 4.48
4 East_Asian 3.63
5 Beringian 1.86
6 Oceanian 1.43
7 Siberian 1.27
8 European_HG 0.05

Reddy Andhra
br2 639.4 cM
lbk 568.9 cM

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 61.77
2 Caucasus_HG 27.78
3 East_Asian 3.24
4 Near_East 1.64
5 Amerindian 1.44
6 European_HG 1.38
7 Oceanian 1.34
8 Beringian 1.14
9 Siberian 0.25
10 Sub-Saharan 0.03

all at 100/1cm setting

at 500/2cm setting the BR2 matches are close to 10cm
late bronze age specimens are close to 5cm

Wait so what are you trying to prove with the genetic scores? That Kammas are descendants of whom?? Sorry, I am not trying to be rude, however please clarify, for I don’t understand!

kush
11-26-2017, 08:03 PM
ok I'm assuming you used these stats
Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 100 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 50 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

If it is, it still doesn't prove your point about kammas. the ones you posted range from 480cM to 750cM for BR2. It's just random with no cline really. That really doesn't say much about the particular caste. Here are some random ones from around the country

Mine
BR2 - 574.2 cM
IR1 -12.4 cM
LBK - 484.5 CM


M422370 (kerala-menon)
BR2- 753.6 cM
IR1- 68.4 cM
LBK- 705.1 cM

A228973 (UP)
BR2 - 751.6 cM
IR1-56.9 cM
LBK- 665 cM

A348435( nanavati- MH or gujarat)
BR2- 800.5 cM
IR1- 53.5 cM
LBK- 709.6 cM

M973454(patel)
BR2- 745.8 cM
IR1- 85.1 cM
LBK- 680.8 cM

M009838 (gujarati jain)
BR2- 708.2 cM
IR1- 41.7 cM
LBK- 665.5 cM

M232002(agarwal)
BR2- 735.4 cM

M280404 (afghan Tajik)
BR2- 750 cM
IR1- 47.6 cM
LBK- 700.7 cM

As you can see an afghan Tajik has less relations with BR2 than you and few other indian samples do with that ancient sample. Even me, I'm quite different than the Reddy you posted. I'm not sure if there really is a cline in the subcontinent atleast with having relations to these ancient samples, that's all I'm saying..

surbakhunWeesste
11-26-2017, 08:12 PM
ok I'm assuming you used these stats
Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 100 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 50 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

If it is, it still doesn't prove your point about kammas. the ones you posted range from 480cM to 750cM for BR2. It's just random with no cline really. That really doesn't say much about the particular caste. Here are some random ones from around the country

Mine
BR2 - 574.2 cM
IR1 -12.4 cM
LBK - 484.5 CM


M422370 (kerala-menon)
BR2- 753.6 cM
IR1- 68.4 cM
LBK- 705.1 cM

A228973 (UP)
BR2 - 751.6 cM
IR1-56.9 cM
LBK- 665 cM

A348435( nanavati- MH or gujarat)
BR2- 800.5 cM
IR1- 53.5 cM
LBK- 709.6 cM

M973454(patel)
BR2- 745.8 cM
IR1- 85.1 cM
LBK- 680.8 cM

M009838 (gujarati jain)
BR2- 708.2 cM
IR1- 41.7 cM
LBK- 665.5 cM

M232002(agarwal)
BR2- 735.4 cM

M280404 (afghan Tajik)
BR2- 750 cM
IR1- 47.6 cM
LBK- 700.7 cM

As you can see an afghan Tajik has less relations with BR2 than you and few other indian samples do with that ancient sample. Even me, I'm quite different than the Reddy you posted. I'm not sure if there really is a cline in the subcontinent atleast with having relations to these ancient samples, that's all I'm saying..

You are using an Afghan Tajik sample from Panjshir, She is probably going to be different than most Afghan Tajiks, other than from her area(Afghan Tajiks have quiet the diversity).

kush
11-26-2017, 08:29 PM
You are using an Afghan Tajik sample from Panjshir, She is probably going to be different than most Afghan Tajiks, other than from her area(Afghan Tajiks have quiet the diversity).

yeah maybe. Regardless though, tajiks are more euro shifted than pretty much all indians, unless they have very high east asian DNA. That is not the case with her anyways. She should have more relations with the hungarian sample than indians of any region. I'm just not sure if this comparision tool is inaccurate or the relations with the ancient samples are completely random..

BMG
11-27-2017, 01:57 AM
yeah maybe. Regardless though, tajiks are more euro shifted than pretty much all indians, unless they have very high east asian DNA. That is not the case with her anyways. She should have more relations with the hungarian sample than indians of any region. I'm just not sure if this comparision tool is inaccurate or the relations with the ancient samples are completely random..
I don't think the matches at this low threshold is useful mainly because there would be lot of false matches . Especially with the ancient genomes has so many missing calls which will be counted as a match by gedmatch . Maybe Kurd can clarify regarding this .

Kurd
11-27-2017, 02:18 AM
I don't think the matches at this low threshold is useful mainly because there would be lot of false matches . Especially with the ancient genomes has so many missing calls which will be counted as a match by gedmatch . Maybe Kurd can clarify regarding this .

The matches are biased in favor of high coverage and diploid aDNA sequences such as Stuttgart and BR2. The published low coverage and pseudo-haploids will get much lower matches. This can be clearly seen when comparing the published steppe genomes vs the same ones I diploid genotyped. Almost a 10 fold rise in some cases.

This said length of segment is more useful than number of segments (small segments). 1 or 2 cM segments are not useful IMO, unless they happen to be rare haplotypes. To determine this you would need to analyze with a program like Beagle.

If you want to compare with others I would stick with >2cM and >200 SNPs, but keep in mind different micro-arrays or DNA company data not directly comparable. All users should be same chip and company

khanabadoshi
11-27-2017, 06:13 AM
I don't think the matches at this low threshold is useful mainly because there would be lot of false matches . Especially with the ancient genomes has so many missing calls which will be counted as a match by gedmatch . Maybe Kurd can clarify regarding this .


To show your point.
At a higher threshold -- 3cM/300SNPs-- one of these is my grandmother, one is Han Chinese, and one is Ashkenazi Jewish... look at LBK, IR1 and BR2:

https://www.gedmatch.com/gifs/archaic_M964658_EB4566.gif


https://www.gedmatch.com/gifs/archaic_M963464_EB4566.gif

https://www.gedmatch.com/gifs/archaic_M772561_EB4566.gif

EDIT. Pics got deleted. Just use "archaic matches" tool on gedmatch to see a yourself/others compared to many ancients.

tipirneni
11-27-2017, 04:02 PM
ok I'm assuming you used these stats
Minimum threshold size to be included in total = 100 SNPs
Mismatch-bunching Limit = 50 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 1.0 cM

If it is, it still doesn't prove your point about kammas. the ones you posted range from 480cM to 750cM for BR2. It's just random with no cline really. That really doesn't say much about the particular caste. Here are some random ones from around the country

Mine
BR2 - 574.2 cM
IR1 -12.4 cM
LBK - 484.5 CM


M422370 (kerala-menon)
BR2- 753.6 cM
IR1- 68.4 cM
LBK- 705.1 cM

A228973 (UP)
BR2 - 751.6 cM
IR1-56.9 cM
LBK- 665 cM

A348435( nanavati- MH or gujarat)
BR2- 800.5 cM
IR1- 53.5 cM
LBK- 709.6 cM

M973454(patel)
BR2- 745.8 cM
IR1- 85.1 cM
LBK- 680.8 cM

M009838 (gujarati jain)
BR2- 708.2 cM
IR1- 41.7 cM
LBK- 665.5 cM

M232002(agarwal)
BR2- 735.4 cM

M280404 (afghan Tajik)
BR2- 750 cM
IR1- 47.6 cM
LBK- 700.7 cM

As you can see an afghan Tajik has less relations with BR2 than you and few other indian samples do with that ancient sample. Even me, I'm quite different than the Reddy you posted. I'm not sure if there really is a cline in the subcontinent atleast with having relations to these ancient samples, that's all I'm saying..

I am getting bigs hits on CHR 2 on Stuttgart LBK which is widely shared/dispersed in Europe. at 2CM/200 I get following, but there are very close segments on CHR 2 that match lot of people on GED including Kamma cluster.
Largest segment = 3.6 cM
Total of segments > 2 cM = 59.6 cM

pegasus
11-27-2017, 06:57 PM
I am getting bigs hits on CHR 2 on Stuttgart LBK which is widely shared/dispersed in Europe. at 2CM/200 I get following, but there are very close segments on CHR 2 that match lot of people on GED including Kamma cluster.
Largest segment = 3.6 cM
Total of segments > 2 cM = 59.6 cM

There is virtually no coerelation between those South Indian groups and those ancient European genome groups. African Horners have more in common with LBK Farmers because of the Levant_N connection. If anything you should be showing how dissimilar they are.

tipirneni
11-27-2017, 07:05 PM
There is virtually no coerelation between those South Indian groups and those ancient European genome groups. African Horners have more in common with LBK Farmers because of the Levant_N connection. If anything you should be showing how dissimilar they are.

Looks like these early farmers since Neolithic time have been the main maternal groups for immigrants groups from Steppe. So if any one from Steppe is admixture with NE Euro etc... and come back into Asia then likely you will find this admixture. Some papers talking about Neolithic revolution etc...

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0118316

mid-6th millennium BC in the area of present day Transdanubia, Slovakia, Austria, and the Great Hungarian Plain, and soon spread to many parts of central Europe, initiating there the Neolithic revolution,were allochthonous populations that considerably differed from the indigenous Mesolithic foragers [14], but shared an affinity with the modern-day Near East and Anatolia [15].



This lack of continuity between either LBK farmers or Mesolithic hunter-gatherers and modern populations in central Europe indicates that the formation of the genetic structure of human populations in this region was greatly affected by demographic processes (migration and admixture, assuming the absence of natural selection acting on particular mtDNA lineages) which followed the arrival of the first farmers


Looks like this some group migrated out or eliminated due to late admixture with the Hunter Gathers from north and there was a major genetic transition that occurred about 4100–2200 BC, when the mtDNA lineages of the first farmers were largely superseded. percent of H increased largely and U decreased a little other like N1 got most wiped out.

from http://mtdnaatlas.blogspot.com/2016/02/asia-has-five-mtdna-gene-pools.html
Origins of Western mtDNA in Siberia and South Asia

West Eurasian mtDNA in Asia peaks in West Siberia and South Asia at about 30%. Every where else in Asia West Eurasian mtDNA is pretty much non-existent. South Asia and Siberia received their Western mtDNA from very differnt sources. Siberian's Western mtDNA is almost entirely from Eastern Europe and South Asian Western mtDNA has unknown sources.

Siberian's Western mtDNA specifically looks like it comes from Pre-Historic Russia(U4, U5a, U2e, T1a, J1b1a1). They probably have a mixture of Mesolithic Russian and Bronze age Andronovo mtDNA(J1b1a1, T1a, J1c, I, H2a1, H6). The composite of Siberian Western mtDNA, is very similar to Catacomb and Andronovo, especially because of their strangely high frequencies of U4.

Siberians also have a string of typical West Asian subclades of U; U7, U1, and U3. It is strange that they don't have a lot non-U West Asian haplogroups. Maybe there were Ancient West Asians who were mostly U7, U1, and U3 like there were ancient Europeans who were mostly U5, U4, and U2e. I doubt it, but it's possible.

South Asian Western mtDNA is dominated by U2(xU2e) and U7. The U2(xU2e) subclades are rarely found outside of South Asia, so have probably been in South Asia for 10,000s of years and not recent arrivals from West Eurasia. The sources of South Asia's U2 is likely a population closely related to Paleolithic North Eurasians, like Ma'lta boy and Kostinki man. The high amount of U7, like in some Siberians, is very strange. U7 is popular in neighbors of South Asia, like Iranians, but it isn't nearly as popular compared to other Western lineages as U7 is in South Asia. Maybe South Asia's U7 and U2 are from the same source.

Non U7 and U2 South Asian Western mtDNA is a mixture of West Asian-specific and European-specific. West Asian-specific mtDNA in my South Asian data besides U7 is includes HV and R0a. Both are more typical of SouthWest Asia than Iran, but still fairly popular in Iran. It's hard to explain the consistent presence of U5a, U4, and J1b1a1, all typical of Bronze age East Europe, in South Asia if all their Western mtDNA is from neighbors in West Asia.