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JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-01-2017, 09:31 PM
There has been a bit of discussion about people with British ancestry and small percentages from unexpected parts of the World. I know from my own results that Basque, SW Asia etc. have featured on various tests and calculators. To me these relatively genetically isolated populations may suggest an early ancestral signature.
This isn't very scientific but I was wondering whether there is any geographical pattern within the UK and Ireland. I was tempted to include Orkney, but that isn't quite so out-of place with British ancestry. It isn't going to prove anything for sure and if anyone can come up with a better method, great. :)
Does Wales and possibly Ireland contain any current evidence of "older" DNA? I would be interested to know whether people with known Welsh (or Welsh borders) or known Irish ancestry tend to get these percentages more than other parts of the UK.
So in "Complete" mode who gets unexpected percentages from outside the the UK and do you have known Welsh/Borders or Irish ancestry, yes or no? John
My results.
Yes significant Wales/Borders ancestry
Europe (South) 2.6%
Basque 1.5%
Sardinia 1%
Asia (Central) 1.4%
Northwest Caucasus 1.4%
Asia (South) 1.4%
Burusho 1.4%

FionnSneachta
09-01-2017, 10:59 PM
It's an interesting idea and who knows maybe a pattern will develop. I get 1.8% Scandinavia and my ancestry is from Ireland, more specifically the Connacht region.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 04:17 AM
It's an interesting idea and who knows maybe a pattern will develop. I get 1.8% Scandinavia and my ancestry is from Ireland, more specifically the Connacht region.

I notice you get some Finnish on Ancestry - I've had that too. It may show an early but different influence from Basque/Sardinia/SW Asian maybe? Of course these things could be nothing but if they come up on different tests..... John

JerryS.
09-02-2017, 04:39 AM
i have significant English ancestry from Shropshire and Kent as well as Bremen Germany. I don't show Basque or Sardinian but I do show significant west Asian. of course I do have some Italian ancestry as well.

Jessie
09-02-2017, 05:03 AM
Both my brother and me are Irish. The only non British & Irish ancestry he gets is 9% Scandinavian and I get 1.4% Chechyna and 1.3% Pashtun and the rest all Britain and Ireland.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 08:35 AM
Both my brother and me are Irish. The only non British & Irish ancestry he gets is 9% Scandinavian and I get 1.4% Chechyna and 1.3% Pashtun and the rest all Britain and Ireland.

I'm no expert but :-
"According to some genetic research the Pashto-speaking Pashtuns relate mainly to other Iranian peoples as well as the Burusho of the Northern Areas of Pakistan, who speak a language isolate."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjomquuhYbWAhUFKsAKHQiKDoYQFghRMAo&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.newworldencyclopedia.org%2Fen try%2FPashtun&usg=AFQjCNG4UQOqdHFesYv9az8OLd7o2qY0Dw

and :-

"In conclusion, there was a genetic study done in different regions of Armenia, that detected that the characteristic genetic code prevalent in Welsh, Basques and Irish, called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, is also present in Armenian population of Syunik and Artsax. These are two Armenian provinces predominantly isolated in the mountains, which precluded genetic admixture with neighboring ethnic groups and nations╗. The Armenian modal haplotype is also the modal R1b3 haplotype."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=11&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi0jqWPiYbWAhXLFsAKHfNxD7kQFghbMAo&url=https%3A%2F%2Fnarinnamkn.wordpress.com%2F2013% 2F12%2F26%2Fbasques-and-armenians%2F&usg=AFQjCNFi_3gNjUeXHIdnyPNLDaeM7tvc9Q

and :-

"They clustered closer to European populations than Middle Eastern populations this time, but were closer to Western European populations (Basques and Britons) than to Eastern European populations (Russians and other Slavs, as well as Estonians), despite living in the East. They actually clustered about as close to Basques as they did to Ingush"

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi1-PPSh4bWAhWJF8AKHRO-DvsQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FCheche ns&usg=AFQjCNG257GU7AA5LPdTyX8O5Hj0GEPBcQ

I don't know if the above claims are valid and I'm not suggesting these peoples are related, just that possibly there may be a common factor in the respective populations maybe? Happy to be corrected on any of this. John

L1983
09-02-2017, 09:33 AM
My family get small %'s of Iberian, Italy/Greece, Caucasus, Middle Eastern, South Asian, Finnish, Native American, East Asian and Jewish dna, but that's with Ancestry and all less than 5%. Mum's family are English: South London/Kent/Sussex/Somerset/Lincolnshire/rural Essex. Dad's: East London/Hertfordshire/Staffordshire/Cork.

Pylsteen
09-02-2017, 09:47 AM
Some (but not the Basque) could be related to the Bell Beakers settling hugely in the Atlantic fringe, without encountering many people to mix with, keeping a lot of steppe DNA, I think.

FionnSneachta
09-02-2017, 11:53 AM
I notice you get some Finnish on Ancestry - I've had that too. It may show an early but different influence from Basque/Sardinia/SW Asian maybe? Of course these things could be nothing but if they come up on different tests..... John

I agree with you. I'm inclined to believe that the Finnish and Scandinavian ancestry could be real rather than noise when two different tests have found a small percentage of ancestry in the same region. It could from an early influence from Viking times. It could also be from my 3x great grandmother on my mum's side who was Knott and when I look up the surname, the surname was first found in Derbyshire where traditionally the name was descended from the Scandinavian King Canute. I also have the surname Broderick on my mum's side which is supposed to be derived from a Norse personal name. The only ancestry outside of Ireland that my paternal aunt got was 1% Great Britain. Either way I'd say that it's from a long time ago if it is real.

Phoebe Watts
09-02-2017, 12:09 PM
I have Chuvashia in Central Asia at 1.1%. I'm 67%+ North Wales and South Wales and all the rest is attributed to England and Scotland.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 12:51 PM
Some (but not the Basque) could be related to the Bell Beakers settling hugely in the Atlantic fringe, without encountering many people to mix with, keeping a lot of steppe DNA, I think.

What would your thoughts be on Basque please?
"Reich’s team calculates that Britain saw a greater than 90% shift in its genetic make-up. But Roberts says he doesn’t see evidence for such a huge shift in the archaeological record. The rise of cremation in Bronze Age Britain could have biased the finding, he cautions, because it might have eliminated bones that could have been sampled for DNA. "

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjOoKnjwobWAhWjDMAKHcc0AvsQFggoMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nature.com%2Fnews%2Fancient-genome-study-finds-bronze-age-beaker-culture-invaded-britain-1.21996&usg=AFQjCNHXqsQtODin0cRtitkj4LjrpqlhSg

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 12:54 PM
i have significant English ancestry from Shropshire and Kent as well as Bremen Germany. I don't show Basque or Sardinian but I do show significant west Asian. of course I do have some Italian ancestry as well.

I would say Shropshire being a border County would have a fairly significant Welsh influence. I'm not sure what influence Italian ancestry might have. John

Pylsteen
09-02-2017, 01:55 PM
What would your thoughts be on Basque please?



I wouldn't know. To me it seems that the Basque component arose during the Bronze Age, because the Basques show being a mixture of older Neolithic and some Bell Beaker, followed by isolation. Maybe from the Atlantic Bronze Age; maybe from medieval Gascony (though I would expect that more in England and not Wales); maybe some of it is indeed a remnant from Megalithic times.

See here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=280958&viewfull=1#post280958) for a map of the K36 Basque component

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 05:09 PM
I wouldn't know. To me it seems that the Basque component arose during the Bronze Age, because the Basques show being a mixture of older Neolithic and some Bell Beaker, followed by isolation. Maybe from the Atlantic Bronze Age; maybe from medieval Gascony (though I would expect that more in England and not Wales); maybe some of it is indeed a remnant from Megalithic times.

See here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=280958&viewfull=1#post280958) for a map of the K36 Basque component

Thanks for that. I notice there is a big gap in Britain and Ireland - could that be under-representation maybe? I'm thinking Wales or at least part of it was relatively isolated genetically until recent times and Ireland was also. I don't know of any specific research into Welsh DNA. I know I'm not the only UK person to get Basque.
These are my K36 results :-
Amerindian 0.13
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 2.26
Central_African -
Central_Euro 4.06
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.86
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.49
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 2.67
Fennoscandian 10.37
French 9.54
Iberian 13.53
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 10.05
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 13.18
North_Caucasian 2.04
North_Sea 19.02
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 2.81
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

Pylsteen
09-02-2017, 05:33 PM
I have 0,63% Basque in K36, which may be noise or from the few Huguenots from around Bordeaux which I have in my tree. I have 10,31% Iberian. Viewing the map that is, like yours a normal score for the area I am from. Still, it is your South-Central-Asian which is the most intriguing.

Nive1526
09-02-2017, 05:43 PM
I get 3.32% Basque with five chromosomes above 10% on K36, yet it doesn┤t show up in my Admixture at Living DNA (Using my Living DNA kit).
My paper-trail ancestry is exclusively central European.

Amerijoe
09-02-2017, 06:24 PM
Thanks for that. I notice there is a big gap in Britain and Ireland - could that be under-representation maybe? I'm thinking Wales or at least part of it was relatively isolated genetically until recent times and Ireland was also. I don't know of any specific research into Welsh DNA. I know I'm not the only UK person to get Basque.
These are my K36 results :-
Amerindian 0.13
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 2.26
Central_African -
Central_Euro 4.06
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 1.86
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 8.49
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 2.67
Fennoscandian 10.37
French 9.54
Iberian 13.53
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 10.05
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 13.18
North_Caucasian 2.04
North_Sea 19.02
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian 2.81
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural -
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

John, the more I look at this; it would seem your Jones and my Jones may have more in common than one would assume. My 3rd great father, William, was from Ireland, but Jones surname is thought to originate in Wales. Livingdna does give me a small percentage of Southern Wales. Again I point out the trade in goods and services between the two countries over the millenia. As with any good trading partner the mixing of genes is a natural by-product. Here is my breakdown on K36.

Basque 3.88
Central_Euro 5.43
East_Balkan 4.63
East_Central_Euro 1.74
Eastern_Euro 4.66
Fennoscandian 7.75
French 4.96
Iberian 12.85
Italian 7.97
North_Atlantic 20.33
North_Caucasian 1.04
North_Sea 21.48
South_Central_Asian 2.19
Volga-Ural 1.08

FionnSneachta
09-02-2017, 07:22 PM
Well I get Basque and South Central Asian (admittedly small percentages) with K36 too but I've never really given the GEDmatch admixture calculators much heed except for if they're linked to oracle. I get a small percentage of Amerindian and Sub-Saharan on K13 but I think it's just noise. It seems that they might reveal more than I thought though. Is it more ancient DNA or something like that? Here's mine anyway:

Basque 1.77
Central_Euro 6.90
East_Balkan 1.76
East_Central_Euro 6.86
Eastern_Euro 6.47
Fennoscandian 7.90
French 8.65
Iberian 15.00
Italian 1.76
North_Atlantic 19.50
North_Caucasian 1.63
North_Sea 20.40
South_Central_Asian 0.35
Volga-Ural 0.42
West_Caucasian 0.64

I have six chromosomes heading towards 20% with Iberian and one with 30.6% Iberian.
I have one chromosome with South Central Asian over 10%.
I have one chromosome with 16.7% North Caucasian.
I have seven chromosomes over 10% with Fennoscandian including one at 25.4%.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 07:29 PM
I have 0,63% Basque in K36, which may be noise or from the few Huguenots from around Bordeaux which I have in my tree. I have 10,31% Iberian. Viewing the map that is, like yours a normal score for the area I am from. Still, it is your South-Central-Asian which is the most intriguing.

Yes I get Kalash, Baloch etc. (NW Pakistan region) on various tests and calculators. I also get around 1% Native American/Amerindian on various tests and calculators. John
"According to outgroup f3 statistics, the Kalash share a high level of genetic drift with MA-1, a Paleolithic Siberian hunter-gatherer skeleton dated to ∼24,000 years ago, but not a very high level with La Bra˝a 1, the Mesolithic European hunter-gatherer (skeletal remains dated to ∼7,000 years ago) or the European farmers represented by Ítzi, the Tyrolean Iceman dated to ∼5,300 years ago (Figure 3). Similar to Native Americans, the Kalash share a high proportion of genetic drift with MA-1. In comparison with other populations from Pakistan and India, the Kalash also share a higher proportion of genetic drift with La Bra˝a 1 and Ítzi. The level of drift shared with La Bra˝a 1 and Ítzi is comparable to that of other North European populations Figure 3B. We also used TreeMix to estimate the proportion of Neandertal ancestry from the high-coverage archaic Altai Neandertal who lived ∼50,000 years ago. The jackknife estimate of Neandertal-to-Kalash gene flow was 2.4% ▒ 0.48%."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj2tqmNnIfWAhUmDsAKHfgnD1sQFggoMAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%2Fpmc%2Fart icles%2FPMC4570283%2F&usg=AFQjCNHca7CJXpyJwibz-b82gdRoj_ZQdg

JerryS.
09-02-2017, 07:41 PM
I stand corrected, using the k36 I do have some basque.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 07:42 PM
Well I get Basque and South Central Asian (admittedly small percentages) with K36 too but I've never really given the GEDmatch admixture calculators much heed except for if they're linked to oracle. I get a small percentage of Amerindian and Sub-Saharan on K13 but I think it's just noise. It seems that they might reveal more than I thought though. Is it more ancient DNA or something like that? Here's mine anyway:

Basque 1.77
Central_Euro 6.90
East_Balkan 1.76
East_Central_Euro 6.86
Eastern_Euro 6.47
Fennoscandian 7.90
French 8.65
Iberian 15.00
Italian 1.76
North_Atlantic 19.50
North_Caucasian 1.63
North_Sea 20.40
South_Central_Asian 0.35
Volga-Ural 0.42
West_Caucasian 0.64

I have six chromosomes heading towards 20% with Iberian and one with 30.6% Iberian.
I have one chromosome with South Central Asian over 10%.
I have one chromosome with 16.7% North Caucasian.
I have seven chromosomes over 10% with Fennoscandian including one at 25.4%.

I'm very inadequate when it comes to understanding DNA. My suspicion is that if they come up frequently on different tests and calculators, there may be a hint at early ancestral origins. I've noticed that the "unexpected" small percentages I get are usually from relatively genetically isolated populations which may have an "older" ancestral profile. I suppose it could be some sort of odd coincidence, but I suppose the aim of my post was to see if there is any sort of geographical pattern which might indicate that it may not be entirely random. Not exactly a scientific study I know. :) John

Phoebe Watts
09-02-2017, 07:47 PM
Some Basque in my mainly Welsh DNA in K36 too.

Armenian 3.23
Basque 3.61
Central_Euro 2.17
East_Balkan 0.57
East_Central_Euro 5.08
Eastern_Euro 7.88
Fennoscandian 5.14
French 4.19
Iberian 11.02
Italian 10.62
North_Atlantic 19.45
North_Sea 26.21
Volga-Ural 0.77
West_Med 0.07

JerryS.
09-02-2017, 07:52 PM
what is your GEDmatch Dodecad V3 two population model (regular oracle, not 4)? if you are mixed like I am with a majority of UK and or German, but you also have some Mediterranean, id like to see how they break down your data into two groups.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 07:53 PM
John, the more I look at this; it would seem your Jones and my Jones may have more in common than one would assume. My 3rd great father, William, was from Ireland, but Jones surname is thought to originate in Wales. Livingdna does give me a small percentage of Southern Wales. Again I point out the trade in goods and services between the two countries over the millenia. As with any good trading partner the mixing of genes is a natural by-product. Here is my breakdown on K36.

Basque 3.88
Central_Euro 5.43
East_Balkan 4.63
East_Central_Euro 1.74
Eastern_Euro 4.66
Fennoscandian 7.75
French 4.96
Iberian 12.85
Italian 7.97
North_Atlantic 20.33
North_Caucasian 1.04
North_Sea 21.48
South_Central_Asian 2.19
Volga-Ural 1.08

Jones is very possibly Wales Joe. I'm not exactly sure where my two Jones lines are from, one maybe North Wales the other maybe
South or Central Wales. People moved South East from all over during the Industrial revolution and from Ireland. Your South Central Asian means I'm not alone. :) John

Nive1526
09-02-2017, 07:54 PM
Basque average from the unofficial Eurogenes K36 reference populations:

Wales 3,12
Ireland 2,27
Orcadian 1,17
Scotland 2,05
Brit. mixed 1,88
England 2,38

Many other western European show up levels between 2-3%, while geographically closer populations, like southern French or Spanish people score higher. Basques themselfs get around 33-35%.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 07:59 PM
what is your GEDmatch Dodecad V3 two population model (regular oracle, not 4)? if you are mixed like I am with a majority of UK and or German, but you also have some Mediterranean, id like to see how they break down your data into two groups.

Hi Jerry who is that question to? I'm British and all - British ancestry as far as I know. John

FionnSneachta
09-02-2017, 08:03 PM
I'll post my paternal aunt's results on K36 as well if it helps but she hasn't done Living DNA. She's 100% Irish and 1% Great Britain with Ancestry DNA.

Amerindian 0.29
Armenian 0.09
Basque 1.59
Central_Euro 6.56
East_Balkan 2.22
East_Central_Euro 3.47
Eastern_Euro 6.02
Fennoscandian 7.07
French 8.61
Iberian 17.89
Italian 2.46
North_Atlantic 21.60
North_Caucasian 0.55
North_Sea 21.59

There's only one chromosome with over 10% Basque.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 08:05 PM
Basque average from the unofficial Eurogenes K36 reference populations:

Wales 3,12
Ireland 2,27
Orcadian 1,17
Scotland 2,05
Brit. mixed 1,88
England 2,38

Many other western European show up levels between 2-3%, while geographically closer populations, like southern French or Spanish people score higher. Basques themselfs get around 33-35%.

Very interesting. We have to bear in mind you have to cross a sea to get to Britain and Ireland so you mind think Basque would be lower than continental Europe?
Not really sure what that means but it's obviously highest in Wales and slightly less in Ireland. You might think Ireland would be less "diluted" than Wales. Maybe it's just geography, closest point to Western continental Europe?
Scotland - Irish links maybe?
Any idea what Bretons score? John

L1983
09-02-2017, 08:09 PM
Added mum/mine/dads K36 for reference

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-02-2017, 08:22 PM
Added mum/mine/dads K36 for reference

Fairly significant Irish ancestry? Any near the Welsh border? Notice some South Central Asian there too. John

JerryS.
09-02-2017, 08:24 PM
Hi Jerry who is that question to? I'm British and all - British ancestry as far as I know. John

it was for you since youre the OP. as far as you know youre all U.K. but there is something else it might seem, that's why I wondered what Dodecad V3 might detect using only two population models from the regular Oracle. Oracle 4 does not always accurately reflect ethnicity because it only breaks it down to the 25%, so if you have 10% Greek it would not be properly represented. the regular Oracle while only using two population groups, narrows it down to which ones fit best. MDLP 23b does this adequately too.

Nive1526
09-02-2017, 08:30 PM
Bretons aren't listed, but northwestern France as a whole is.
France_NorthWest 3,28

Maybe there's a map of Basque admixture in the unofficial K36 oracle thread, haven't found one.
I could imagine two things. Either there is a cline of actual Basque admixture across Europe that starts from 35% and ends with no Basque admixture or there's a certain noise level all Western and Central Europeans show due to common ancestral populations and everything above is gene flow.

Pylsteen
09-02-2017, 08:35 PM
Bretons aren't listed, but northwestern France as a whole is.
France_NorthWest 3,28

Maybe there's a map of Basque admixture in the unofficial K36 oracle thread, haven't found one.
I could imagine two things. Either there is a cline of actual Basque admixture across Europe that starts from 35% and ends with no Basque admixture or there's a certain noise level all Western and Central Europeans show due to common ancestral populations and everything above is gene flow.


See here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=280958&viewfull=1#post280958) for a map.

L1983
09-02-2017, 09:12 PM
Fairly significant Irish ancestry? Any near the Welsh border? Notice some South Central Asian there too. John

Dad's mum's maternal side are Irish. No known Welsh, but my dad's mum's maidens name is Griffiths. Traced them back to Shropshire. The South Asian appears with my mum also, although dad also has small traces.

Edit: Sorry, not Shropshire at all! Staffordshire

Jessie
09-03-2017, 04:05 AM
Here's my K36. With these you have to compare to other populations. Also some components that are labelled with a geographic country aren't always correctly labelled. From looking at some of the threads the French component seems to be larger in the British Isles than France itself.

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 0.88
Central_African -
Central_Euro 8.43
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 3.84
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 5.14
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 6.80
Fennoscandian 7.54
French 8.34
Iberian 14.23
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 0.69
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 21.03
North_Caucasian 1.33
North_Sea 19.48
Northeast_African -
Oceanian -
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.32
West_African -
West_Caucasian 1.95
West_Med -

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 06:09 AM
it was for you since youre the OP. as far as you know youre all U.K. but there is something else it might seem, that's why I wondered what Dodecad V3 might detect using only two population models from the regular Oracle. Oracle 4 does not always accurately reflect ethnicity because it only breaks it down to the 25%, so if you have 10% Greek it would not be properly represented. the regular Oracle while only using two population groups, narrows it down to which ones fit best. MDLP 23b does this adequately too.

Jerry, I've had various suggestions/theories from people about possible ancestral connections outside the UK, one of them being Roma ancestry. I've had Acadian, Native American, Indian, Gascon etc.. My known ancestry is almost entirely in Wales and the Welsh borders. I haven't yet found any ancestors from outside the UK. It's not an area which generally had a diverse presence apart from Roma. If it is Roma ancestry, which is possible, no-one has been able to confirm this from the DNA and I have asked several people. I also understand that
NW Asian DNA even amongst people with known Roma ancestry isn't that common, but I'm no expert.
I've also noticed on this thread that a number of other people who have posted with British ancestry have had similar results to mine, like including SW Asian, so maybe it isn't that unusual.
I don't have a lot of experience with using and interpreting the calculators you mention. If you want to have a look you would be very welcome and I would be interested in your thoughts. My kit number is T034724. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 06:39 AM
Bretons aren't listed, but northwestern France as a whole is.
France_NorthWest 3,28

Maybe there's a map of Basque admixture in the unofficial K36 oracle thread, haven't found one.
I could imagine two things. Either there is a cline of actual Basque admixture across Europe that starts from 35% and ends with no Basque admixture or there's a certain noise level all Western and Central Europeans show due to common ancestral populations and everything above is gene flow.

Yes, I wondered about that. Is it just actually similarity to Basque as a modern population or does it partly suggest migration?
Either could be the case, there is a pretty obvious migratory route from Iberia and Western France to the West coast of Britain and Ireland. On the other hand you might expect to find an "older" DNA signature in these places because they were less affected by subsequent migrations from across the North Sea and English channel? Other "bits" like Kalash/Baloch/Chetchen etc. are obviously not migration but matching with isolated populations that may have more "old" DNA (I like technical terms) :) .
It would be interesting to see what the results would be when compared to Eastern/Central/Northern England and Scotland but that's complicated and beyond my pay grade. :) As far as I can see, the majority of people who have posted here with these "oddities" seem to have ancestry in or near Wales and Ireland. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 06:54 AM
See here (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10347-(Unofficial)-oracle-for-Eurogenes-K36-256-reference-populations&p=280958&viewfull=1#post280958) for a map.

The Ukrain region is interesting, Sardinia (I get that too). Doesn't tell us much about Britain and Ireland though - lack of data? John

Pylsteen
09-03-2017, 10:22 AM
The Ukrain region is interesting, Sardinia (I get that too). Doesn't tell us much about Britain and Ireland though - lack of data? John

You can click on the link above it, it shows a table per population.

JerryS.
09-03-2017, 11:12 AM
Jerry, I've had various suggestions/theories from people about possible ancestral connections outside the UK, one of them being Roma ancestry. I've had Acadian, Native American, Indian, Gascon etc.. My known ancestry is almost entirely in Wales and the Welsh borders. I haven't yet found any ancestors from outside the UK. It's not an area which generally had a diverse presence apart from Roma. If it is Roma ancestry, which is possible, no-one has been able to confirm this from the DNA and I have asked several people. I also understand that
NW Asian DNA even amongst people with known Roma ancestry isn't that common, but I'm no expert.
I've also noticed on this thread that a number of other people who have posted with British ancestry have had similar results to mine, like including SW Asian, so maybe it isn't that unusual.
I don't have a lot of experience with using and interpreting the calculators you mention. If you want to have a look you would be very welcome and I would be interested in your thoughts. My kit number is T034724. John


here is your Dodecad V3 using the two population model. there isn't even one double digit secondary population, which leads me to believe this is just some ancient trace showing up from the caucuses.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.2% CEU (HapMap) + 3.8% Balochi (HGDP) @ 0.8
2 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 0.81
3 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Makrani (HGDP) @ 0.85
4 96.1% CEU (HapMap) + 3.9% Pathan (HGDP) @ 0.92
5 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 0.97
6 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) @ 1
7 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Pakistani (Xing) @ 1.01
8 96.7% CEU (HapMap) + 3.3% Kalash (HGDP) @ 1.01
9 96.6% CEU (HapMap) + 3.4% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 1.03
10 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Burusho (HGDP) @ 1.1
11 96.2% CEU (HapMap) + 3.8% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 1.17
12 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Iranians (Behar) @ 1.19
13 97% CEU (HapMap) + 3% Cochin_Jews (Behar) @ 1.19
14 96.6% CEU (HapMap) + 3.4% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 1.2
15 97% CEU (HapMap) + 3% Meghawal (Reich) @ 1.24
16 97.4% CEU (HapMap) + 2.6% Velama (Reich) @ 1.27
17 97.2% CEU (HapMap) + 2.8% TN_Brahmin (Xing) @ 1.27
18 96.9% CEU (HapMap) + 3.1% Vaish (Reich) @ 1.28
19 97.2% CEU (HapMap) + 2.8% Srivastava (Reich) @ 1.28
20 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 1.29

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 11:45 AM
here is your Dodecad V3 using the two population model. there isn't even one double digit secondary population, which leads me to believe this is just some ancient trace showing up from the caucuses.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.2% CEU (HapMap) + 3.8% Balochi (HGDP) @ 0.8
2 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Brahui (HGDP) @ 0.81
3 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Makrani (HGDP) @ 0.85
4 96.1% CEU (HapMap) + 3.9% Pathan (HGDP) @ 0.92
5 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Kashmiri_Pandit (Reich) @ 0.97
6 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Bnei_Menashe_Jews (Behar) @ 1
7 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Pakistani (Xing) @ 1.01
8 96.7% CEU (HapMap) + 3.3% Kalash (HGDP) @ 1.01
9 96.6% CEU (HapMap) + 3.4% Sindhi (HGDP) @ 1.03
10 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Burusho (HGDP) @ 1.1
11 96.2% CEU (HapMap) + 3.8% Kurd (Dodecad) @ 1.17
12 96.5% CEU (HapMap) + 3.5% Iranians (Behar) @ 1.19
13 97% CEU (HapMap) + 3% Cochin_Jews (Behar) @ 1.19
14 96.6% CEU (HapMap) + 3.4% Iranian (Dodecad) @ 1.2
15 97% CEU (HapMap) + 3% Meghawal (Reich) @ 1.24
16 97.4% CEU (HapMap) + 2.6% Velama (Reich) @ 1.27
17 97.2% CEU (HapMap) + 2.8% TN_Brahmin (Xing) @ 1.27
18 96.9% CEU (HapMap) + 3.1% Vaish (Reich) @ 1.28
19 97.2% CEU (HapMap) + 2.8% Srivastava (Reich) @ 1.28
20 96.3% CEU (HapMap) + 3.7% Uzbekistan_Jews (Behar) @ 1.29

Thank you for that. That's broadly what I was thinking. Any thoughts on the origins please? I've sort of been thinking Steppe-related. Is CEU Central Europe? or Continental Europe? John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 11:46 AM
You can click on the link above it, it shows a table per population.

Thank you. I hadn't picked that up. John

L1983
09-03-2017, 12:21 PM
Added dads and mums V3 for comparison/if of interest.

FionnSneachta
09-03-2017, 01:28 PM
I'll throw in mine and my aunt's V3 as well. They're quite different in the mixed mode population sharing. Irish is number 17 on the single population for me but interestingly enough my top mixed mode sharing is Orkney at 97.2% and Finnish at 2.8% so just replace Orkney with Ireland and it seems like it might be quite accurate. Irish isn't even suggested in mixed mode.
18526
18527

Phoebe Watts
09-03-2017, 03:14 PM
Is CEU Central Europe? or Continental Europe? John

I get CEU too - but not this high. It's Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry. This population has a high proportion of people of Welsh ancestry. Several of my relatives and lots of their neighbours went to Utah from Carmarthenshire so it does seem to make sense.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 07:18 PM
I get CEU too - but not this high. It's Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry. This population has a high proportion of people of Welsh ancestry. Several of my relatives and lots of their neighbours went to Utah from Carmarthenshire so it does seem to make sense.

I still don't have a clue what CEU is. :) John

Amerijoe
09-03-2017, 07:30 PM
I still don't have a clue what CEU is. :) John

Northern Europeans from Utah. Thank the Mormons and your Welsh ancestors for that one.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-03-2017, 07:33 PM
Northern Europeans from Utah. Thank the Mormons and your Welsh ancestors for that one.

I assume you are joking Joe. ;) John

Amerijoe
09-03-2017, 08:28 PM
I assume you are joking Joe. ;) John

That's with a nod and a wink. It seems with Mormon genealogical research, largest in world, being responsible for the term's use and the influx of both Welsh and Basque immigrants in the 1800's to Utah, the thanks may not be as remote as it sounds. There are other Northern and Western European ancestries who also are included under the CEU heading. I'm just pointing out that you have close affinity with CEU and many Utah residents share part of your ancestry. :) Joe

Additional info:

Mormon missionaries in Wales in the 1840s and 1850s proved persuasive, and many converts emigrated to Utah. By the mid-nineteenth century, Malad City, Idaho was established. It began largely as a Welsh Mormon settlement and lays claim to having more people of Welsh descent per capita than anywhere outside Wales.[29] This may be around 20%.[30] In 1951 the National Gymanfa Association of the United States and Canada sponsored a collection of Welsh books at the Harold B. Lee Library at Brigham Young University.[31]:75

Phoebe Watts
09-03-2017, 08:56 PM
The explanation of HapMap population samples is here

http://www.sanger.ac.uk/resources/downloads/human/hapmap3.html

JerryS.
09-04-2017, 02:51 AM
my V3 results.... Dodecad must love some Scottish! my English is Colonial American that I trace to Shropshire and Kent back to 1757. my German I traced back to Bremen, coming to the U.S.A. in 1862, but some how those two regions add up to Orkney/Argyll?

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.3
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.51
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.58
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.59
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.61
11 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
12 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.76
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
18 86.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.81
19 92.1% CEU (HapMap) + 7.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.82
20 81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.84

JerryS.
09-04-2017, 02:59 AM
Jerry, I've had various suggestions/theories from people about possible ancestral connections outside the UK, one of them being Roma ancestry. I've had Acadian, Native American, Indian, Gascon etc.. My known ancestry is almost entirely in Wales and the Welsh borders. I haven't yet found any ancestors from outside the UK. It's not an area which generally had a diverse presence apart from Roma. If it is Roma ancestry, which is possible, no-one has been able to confirm this from the DNA and I have asked several people. I also understand that
NW Asian DNA even amongst people with known Roma ancestry isn't that common, but I'm no expert.
I've also noticed on this thread that a number of other people who have posted with British ancestry have had similar results to mine, like including SW Asian, so maybe it isn't that unusual.
I don't have a lot of experience with using and interpreting the calculators you mention. If you want to have a look you would be very welcome and I would be interested in your thoughts. My kit number is T034724. John

here is your MDLP k23b

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.2% North_European ( ) + 12.8% Tabassaran ( ) @ 1.56
2 87.6% North_European ( ) + 12.4% Avar ( ) @ 1.75
3 87.6% North_European ( ) + 12.4% Lezgin ( ) @ 1.79
4 87.1% North_European ( ) + 12.9% Lak ( ) @ 1.82
5 85.4% North_European ( ) + 14.6% Stalskoe_Kumyk ( ) @ 1.89
6 87.2% North_European ( ) + 12.8% Dargin_Urkarah ( ) @ 1.94
7 87.5% North_European ( ) + 12.5% Azeri_Dagestan ( ) @ 1.95
8 88.7% North_European ( ) + 11.3% Chechen ( ) @ 2.02
9 88% North_European ( ) + 12% Kumyk ( ) @ 2.03
10 88.6% North_European ( ) + 11.4% Kabardin ( ) @ 2.09
11 90% English ( ) + 10% Tabassaran ( ) @ 2.13
12 86.5% Irish ( ) + 13.5% Kuban_cossack ( ) @ 2.14
13 88.8% Icelandic ( ) + 11.2% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.16
14 98.2% Dutch ( ) + 1.8% Brahui ( ) @ 2.17
15 88.5% Icelandic ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.19
16 98.2% Dutch ( ) + 1.8% Balochi ( ) @ 2.19
17 98.1% Dutch ( ) + 1.9% Makrani ( ) @ 2.2
18 98.5% Dutch ( ) + 1.5% Kalash ( ) @ 2.21
19 88.1% Icelandic ( ) + 11.9% Georgian_Megrelia ( ) @ 2.23
20 90% English ( ) + 10% Lak ( ) @ 2.28

*** here is mine: notice how the Frisian region is about half way between England and northern German.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.5% Frisian ( ) + 17.5% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.8% Frisian ( ) + 20.2% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 86% Frisian ( ) + 14% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.6% Frisian ( ) + 14.4% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.9% Frisian ( ) + 16.1% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 85% Frisian ( ) + 15% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.5% Frisian ( ) + 16.5% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.07
12 79.4% Frisian ( ) + 20.6% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.9% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.1% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.09
16 84.6% Frisian ( ) + 15.4% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.4% Frisian ( ) + 15.6% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.2% Frisian ( ) + 17.8% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 84.4% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.6% Circassian ( ) @ 2.15
20 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15

Jessie
09-04-2017, 03:14 AM
I've never found Dodecad particularly accurate. Irish is always distant for me and all my family. Also it doesn't make sense that Argyll, Orkney would be so far from Irish when in other calculators those populations are quite close.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European 55.75
2 Mediterranean 22.7
3 East_European 12.84
4 West_Asian 7.79
5 Southwest_Asian 0.44
6 Northeast_Asian 0.33
7 South_Asian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 1.47
2 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 2.56
3 Orcadian (HGDP) 2.63
4 N._European (Xing) 2.92
5 CEU (HapMap) 3.59
6 German (Dodecad) 4.88
7 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 7.83
8 Dutch (Dodecad) 9.17
9 Kent (1000 Genomes) 11.04
10 British_Isles (Dodecad) 12.39
11 British (Dodecad) 12.81
12 Swedish (Dodecad) 12.81
13 French (HGDP) 13.51
14 Cornwall (1000 Genomes) 13.51
15 French (Dodecad) 13.82
16 Norwegian (Dodecad) 14.12
17 Irish (Dodecad) 15.06
18 Slovenian (Xing) 16.83
19 Hungarians (Behar) 20.99
20 FIN (1000Genomes) 22.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 3.8% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 0.78
2 94.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.3% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 0.78
3 97.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.1% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 0.94
4 97.8% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 0.94
5 81.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.7% German (Dodecad) @ 0.98
6 97.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.4% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.03
7 97.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.09
8 97.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.7% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.1
9 97.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.6% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.12
10 62% German (Dodecad) + 38% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.17
11 98.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 1.6% Chuvashs_16 (Behar) @ 1.24
12 94.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.25
13 79.7% Dutch (Dodecad) + 20.3% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.26
14 69.9% German (Dodecad) + 30.1% Kent (1000 Genomes) @ 1.26
15 58.3% Irish (Dodecad) + 41.7% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.26
16 93.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 6.8% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.27
17 65.8% German (Dodecad) + 34.2% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.29
18 93.5% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 6.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.35
19 79.4% Dutch (Dodecad) + 20.6% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.36
20 97.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.4% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.38

In the K23b I do get Irish and Pashtun.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Mumbai_Jew ( ) @ 0.79
2 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Parsi ( ) @ 0.82
3 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Cochin_Jew ( ) @ 0.83
4 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Pakistani_Pushtun ( ) @ 0.85
5 97.3% Irish ( ) + 2.7% Roma_Slovenian ( ) @ 0.88
6 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Roma_Macedonian ( ) @ 0.88
7 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Roma_Bulgarian ( ) @ 0.89
8 97.9% Irish ( ) + 2.1% Roma ( ) @ 0.91
9 96.9% Irish ( ) + 3.1% Lithuanian ( ) @ 0.92
10 96.7% Irish ( ) + 3.3% Latvian ( ) @ 0.92
11 96.6% Irish ( ) + 3.4% Estonian ( ) @ 0.93
12 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Afghan_Pushtun ( ) @ 0.93
13 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Yemen ( ) @ 0.93
14 86.9% Irish ( ) + 13.1% North_German ( ) @ 0.93
15 97% Irish ( ) + 3% Russian_Center ( ) @ 0.94
16 94.2% Irish ( ) + 5.8% German ( ) @ 0.94
17 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Uzbek_Afghan ( ) @ 0.94
18 96.2% Irish ( ) + 3.8% Russian-North-West ( ) @ 0.94
19 97.6% Irish ( ) + 2.4% Tajik_Afghan ( ) @ 0.94
20 96.8% Irish ( ) + 3.2% Belarusian_South ( ) @ 0.94

JerryS.
09-04-2017, 04:17 AM
I've never found Dodecad particularly accurate. Irish is always distant for me and all my family. Also it doesn't make sense that Argyll, Orkney would be so far from Irish when in other calculators those populations are quite close.

Admix Results (sorted):


# Population Percent
1 West_European 55.75
2 Mediterranean 22.7
3 East_European 12.84
4 West_Asian 7.79
5 Southwest_Asian 0.44
6 Northeast_Asian 0.33
7 South_Asian 0.15

Single Population Sharing:


# Population (source) Distance
1 Argyll (1000 Genomes) 1.47
2 Orkney (1000 Genomes) 2.56
3 Orcadian (HGDP) 2.63
4 N._European (Xing) 2.92
5 CEU (HapMap) 3.59
6 German (Dodecad) 4.88
7 Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) 7.83
8 Dutch (Dodecad) 9.17
9 Kent (1000 Genomes) 11.04
10 British_Isles (Dodecad) 12.39
11 British (Dodecad) 12.81
12 Swedish (Dodecad) 12.81
13 French (HGDP) 13.51
14 Cornwall (1000 Genomes) 13.51
15 French (Dodecad) 13.82
16 Norwegian (Dodecad) 14.12
17 Irish (Dodecad) 15.06
18 Slovenian (Xing) 16.83
19 Hungarians (Behar) 20.99
20 FIN (1000Genomes) 22.14

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96.2% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 3.8% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 0.78
2 94.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.3% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 0.78
3 97.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.1% Lithuanian (Dodecad) @ 0.94
4 97.8% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.2% Lithuanians (Behar) @ 0.94
5 81.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.7% German (Dodecad) @ 0.98
6 97.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.4% Russian (HGDP) @ 1.03
7 97.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.1% Belorussian (Behar) @ 1.09
8 97.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.7% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.1
9 97.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.6% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.12
10 62% German (Dodecad) + 38% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.17
11 98.4% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 1.6% Chuvashs_16 (Behar) @ 1.24
12 94.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 5.7% Swedish (Dodecad) @ 1.25
13 79.7% Dutch (Dodecad) + 20.3% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 1.26
14 69.9% German (Dodecad) + 30.1% Kent (1000 Genomes) @ 1.26
15 58.3% Irish (Dodecad) + 41.7% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.26
16 93.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 6.8% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.27
17 65.8% German (Dodecad) + 34.2% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 1.29
18 93.5% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 6.5% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 1.35
19 79.4% Dutch (Dodecad) + 20.6% Polish (Dodecad) @ 1.36
20 97.6% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 2.4% Hungarians (Behar) @ 1.38

In the K23b I do get Irish and Pashtun.

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Mumbai_Jew ( ) @ 0.79
2 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Parsi ( ) @ 0.82
3 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Cochin_Jew ( ) @ 0.83
4 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Pakistani_Pushtun ( ) @ 0.85
5 97.3% Irish ( ) + 2.7% Roma_Slovenian ( ) @ 0.88
6 98% Irish ( ) + 2% Roma_Macedonian ( ) @ 0.88
7 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Roma_Bulgarian ( ) @ 0.89
8 97.9% Irish ( ) + 2.1% Roma ( ) @ 0.91
9 96.9% Irish ( ) + 3.1% Lithuanian ( ) @ 0.92
10 96.7% Irish ( ) + 3.3% Latvian ( ) @ 0.92
11 96.6% Irish ( ) + 3.4% Estonian ( ) @ 0.93
12 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Afghan_Pushtun ( ) @ 0.93
13 97.8% Irish ( ) + 2.2% Yemen ( ) @ 0.93
14 86.9% Irish ( ) + 13.1% North_German ( ) @ 0.93
15 97% Irish ( ) + 3% Russian_Center ( ) @ 0.94
16 94.2% Irish ( ) + 5.8% German ( ) @ 0.94
17 97.7% Irish ( ) + 2.3% Uzbek_Afghan ( ) @ 0.94
18 96.2% Irish ( ) + 3.8% Russian-North-West ( ) @ 0.94
19 97.6% Irish ( ) + 2.4% Tajik_Afghan ( ) @ 0.94
20 96.8% Irish ( ) + 3.2% Belarusian_South ( ) @ 0.94

could it be that your Irish is descendant from the Scottish?

Angoliga
09-04-2017, 05:03 AM
These haplotypic comparisons show the Irish Neolithic remains (Ballynahatty) are closest to modern populations in Sardinia and Spain:


"Haplotype-based approaches are more powerful than those using unlinked genetic loci in identifying fine genetic structure, such as that displayed among Europeans, and are relatively robust to bias from marker ascertainment (35, 36). We ran ChromoPainter in fineSTRUCTURE (Version 2) (35) to decompose each ancient genome into a series of haplotypic chunks, and identified which modern individuals from a diverse set of Eurasian populations (37) shared the same, or most similar, haplotype at each given chunk. We then considered the pattern of chunk donation between each ancient genome and modern populations.

Unsurprisingly, the pattern of haplotypic affinity of Ballynahatty among modern European populations is strongly correlated to that of the earlier Neolithic samples (SI Appendix, Fig. S14.2; r > 0.74, P < 10−7), with southern Mediterranean samples in each analysis showing highest levels of chunk copying... the Irish Neolithic has highest values in the west (Sardinian and Spanish)."




Comparison of Irish ancient genomes for haplotype-based affinity to modern populations:

https://i.imgur.com/zbqcnHJ.png

Interpolated heatmaps comparing relative haplotype donations by two Irish (Ballynahatty, Rathlin1)
(Cassidy, 2015 (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full))


The later Irish BA remains (Rathlin1) show haplotypic similarities closest to modern populations in Ireland/Scotland/Whales, so maybe your minor Sardinian/Basque affinities are just relics of earlier neolithic groups which were absorbed by later dominant BA (bell-beaker) migrations.
- since these Mediterranean neolithic farmers were most similar to EEFs from in-and-around the Levant, that might explain some of the SW-Asian ADMIXTURE.


I came across this paper while trying to figure out how my paternal hg (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults) (A-M13) came into the Middle-East--Sardinia--U.K. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7187-A-M13-in-an-Englishman)
Current data (TMRCAs (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/)/locations) suggests a distant connection of minor "North-East African" in EEFs.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-04-2017, 06:05 AM
my V3 results.... Dodecad must love some Scottish! my English is Colonial American that I trace to Shropshire and Kent back to 1757. my German I traced back to Bremen, coming to the U.S.A. in 1862, but some how those two regions add up to Orkney/Argyll?

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.3
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.51
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.58
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.59
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.61
11 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
12 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.76
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
18 86.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.81
19 92.1% CEU (HapMap) + 7.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.82
20 81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.84

On LivingDNA I and I think some others, get Orkney and NW Scotland but I have no known recent ancestry from there and I think it's improbable. My guess is it's being confused with Welsh Borders because of similar ancestral origins. In both places you could have Celtic/pre- Celtic mixed with "Germanic" in Orkey etc. Norse, Welsh borders mainly Anglo Saxon? It could relate to your Shropshire ancestry maybe? John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-04-2017, 06:41 AM
Last night I watched again on PBS America "Secrets of Stonehenge". Mike Parker Pearson, the guy who has lead the recent research on Stonehenge, said specifically that some of the first farmers in Britain settled in Wales. I don't know on what basis he said this but I assume he knows what he is talking about. He also mentioned because of the blue stones at Stonehenge that basically Wales was the ancestral homeland of the Stonehenge builders.
Ok, to me this raises the question of a Neolithic migration from West to East across Britain (not exclusively maybe) from a point of departure (to Britain and Ireland) of Iberia or the Western or North Western coast of France.
I think from the results we are discussing it is possible we are seeing traces of these Neolithic or even earlier populations in the modern Welsh and Irish.
Here is the programme. The comments about Wales are towards the end of the programme, about 48 minutes in. John


https://youtu.be/mxgtpSr7Jfc

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-04-2017, 06:47 AM
These haplotypic comparisons show the Irish Neolithic remains (Ballynahatty) are closest to modern populations in Sardinia and Spain:


(Cassidy, 2015 (http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full))


The later Irish BA remains (Rathlin1) show haplotypic similarities closest to modern populations in Ireland/Scotland/Whales, so maybe your minor Sardinian/Basque affinities are just relics of earlier neolithic groups which were absorbed by later dominant BA (bell-beaker) migrations.
- since these Mediterranean neolithic farmers were most similar to EEFs from in-and-around the Levant, that might explain some of the SW-Asian ADMIXTURE.


I came across this paper while trying to figure out how my paternal hg (https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Haplogroup_A/default.aspx?section=yresults) (A-M13) came into the Middle-East--Sardinia--U.K. (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7187-A-M13-in-an-Englishman)
Current data (TMRCAs (https://www.yfull.com/tree/A-M13/)/locations) suggests a distant connection of minor "North-East African" in EEFs.

Yes I think you are right, Basque and Sardinian are relatively genetically isolated I think, but the point is it isn't just me. It may suggest the "Celtic" portrayal of Wales and Ireland isn't the whole picture and traces of the earlier peoples hasn't disappeared entirely. :) John

avalon
09-04-2017, 02:56 PM
Last night I watched again on PBS America "Secrets of Stonehenge". Mike Parker Pearson, the guy who has lead the recent research on Stonehenge, said specifically that some of the first farmers in Britain settled in Wales. I don't know on what basis he said this but I assume he knows what he is talking about. He also mentioned because of the blue stones at Stonehenge that basically Wales was the ancestral homeland of the Stonehenge builders.
Ok, to me this raises the question of a Neolithic migration from West to East across Britain (not exclusively maybe) from a point of departure (to Britain and Ireland) of Iberia or the Western or North Western coast of France.
I think from the results we are discussing it is possible we are seeing traces of these Neolithic or even earlier populations in the modern Welsh and Irish.
Here is the programme. The comments about Wales are towards the end of the programme, about 48 minutes in. John


https://youtu.be/mxgtpSr7Jfc

I have for a long time thought that it was possible that Neolithic inhabitants may have endured the major population changes of the Bronze Age and survived, perhaps in pockets, for long periods of time in Wales or elsewhere in the UK. At the moment, I just don't think there is enough ancientDNA or modernDNA from Wales to know for sure. This small amount of Basque could well be a trace of something Neolithic.

One thing I know about Pembroskeshire and the Preseli hills is that this area is rich in Neolithic tombs, so clearly there was at one time a thriving Neolithic community there, which might be what the programme refers to. And you're right of course, these Welsh megaliths were probably derived from earlier types and influences in Brittany.

https://brian-mountainman.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/pembrokeshires-neolithic-tombs.html?m=1

Pylsteen
09-04-2017, 04:17 PM
I have for a long time thought that it was possible that Neolithic inhabitants may have endured the major population changes of the Bronze Age and survived, perhaps in pockets, for long periods of time in Wales or elsewhere in the UK.


You may be right about that; the Basques can be modelled as a mix of about 80% Neolithic and 20% Bell Beaker. It may very well be that in Britain the same type of Neolithic people (megalithic) mixed with the same type of Bell Beaker, leading to a similar mix and therefore resembling the Basque component.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-04-2017, 05:19 PM
You may be right about that; the Basques can be modelled as a mix of about 80% Neolithic and 20% Bell Beaker. It may very well be that in Britain the same type of Neolithic people (megalithic) mixed with the same type of Bell Beaker, leading to a similar mix and therefore resembling the Basque component.

So you think the West Asian "hints" could be associated with Bell Beaker? If early traces of peoples remain anywhere in Western Europe it seems logical that it would be highest in Wales (or parts of it) and Ireland which were least affected by later migrations from the East, particularly Anglo/Saxon, Norse etc.
I do wonder whether the "Celtic" impact on Wales may be a little over - played. Perhaps more remains of earlier peoples that was thought, particularly in the more remote areas of Wales, which were "remote" probably well into the 1800's.
Avalon is right, there just isn't enough information to confirm anything at the moment but the possibilities are interesting. John

Angoliga
09-04-2017, 07:23 PM
Yes I think you are right, Basque and Sardinian are relatively genetically isolated I think, but the point is it isn't just me. It may suggest the "Celtic" portrayal of Wales and Ireland isn't the whole picture and traces of the earlier peoples hasn't disappeared entirely. :) John

Hi John, yes the same would of course apply to Irish/Welsh populations in general -- I was merely referring to "you" in second person for literary effect since you're the OP :nerd:
Ben

- maybe this finally explains why Welsh/Irish actress Catherine Zeta Jones can pass for Mediterranean ;):



Catherine Zeta-Jones(L), Spanish actor Anotinio Banderas (R)
https://i.imgur.com/kFaxU94.jpg


Sardinian Actress - Caterina Murino
https://i.imgur.com/0OmPvc5.jpg

Both stunning actresses btw; I'll admit I'm a sucker for the dark brunettes:eyebrows:

Pylsteen
09-04-2017, 09:14 PM
So you think the West Asian "hints" could be associated with Bell Beaker? If early traces of peoples remain anywhere in Western Europe it seems logical that it would be highest in Wales (or parts of it) and Ireland which were least affected by later migrations from the East, particularly Anglo/Saxon, Norse etc.
I do wonder whether the "Celtic" impact on Wales may be a little over - played. Perhaps more remains of earlier peoples that was thought, particularly in the more remote areas of Wales, which were "remote" probably well into the 1800's.
Avalon is right, there just isn't enough information to confirm anything at the moment but the possibilities are interesting. John

Don't know what West-Asian actually is, is it Armenian/Kurd etc? it's not a K36 component. Sure much Neolithic may have come with the Bell Beakers, since they must have mixed in central Europe already I think. Indeed, Anglo-Saxon (and Norse) migrations probably lowered it in the rest since they come from areas with less Neolithic history. Maybe the Normans then brought again new Neolithic genes. It's still all guessing... at least we can do that.

Jessie
09-05-2017, 02:04 AM
Yes I think you are right, Basque and Sardinian are relatively genetically isolated I think, but the point is it isn't just me. It may suggest the "Celtic" portrayal of Wales and Ireland isn't the whole picture and traces of the earlier peoples hasn't disappeared entirely. :) John

I think that people that get some extra Basque or Sardinian might have a higher Neolithic Farmer percentage. From all I've read the "Insular Celts" have less farmer and more Steppe than the English.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-05-2017, 06:01 AM
I think that people that get some extra Basque or Sardinian might have a higher Neolithic Farmer percentage. From all I've read the "Insular Celts" have less farmer and more Steppe than the English.

Yes, all I'm wondering is whether the Insular Celtic might actually be lower in Wales or parts of Wales relatively speaking. My understanding is that Welsh DNA appears to be different to some extent to other parts of the UK and there is actually a difference between North and South Wales although I don't pretend to understand the fine detail. :) John

"The Welsh also showed striking differences to the rest of Britain, and scientists concluded that their DNA most closely resembles that of the earliest hunter-gatherers to have arrived when Britain became habitable again after the Ice Age.

Surprisingly, the study showed no genetic basis for a single “Celtic” group, with people living in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Cornwall being among the most different form each other genetically.

“The Celtic regions one might have expected to be genetically similar, but they’re among the most different in our study,” said Mark Robinson, an archaeologist from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History and a co-author. “It’s stressing their genetic difference, it’s not saying there aren’t cultural similarities."

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwimsJuMro3WAhXJLMAKHfW-CigQFgg5MAI&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fscience%2F 2015%2Fmar%2F18%2Fgenetic-study-30-percent-white-british-dna-german-ancestry&usg=AFQjCNHfrrvnXOQVEI59sBJFtkmZwYprMw

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-05-2017, 06:39 AM
Don't know what West-Asian actually is, is it Armenian/Kurd etc? it's not a K36 component. Sure much Neolithic may have come with the Bell Beakers, since they must have mixed in central Europe already I think. Indeed, Anglo-Saxon (and Norse) migrations probably lowered it in the rest since they come from areas with less Neolithic history. Maybe the Normans then brought again new Neolithic genes. It's still all guessing... at least we can do that.

Sorry if my use of terms is confusing. In my own case I am referring to (similarities with) NW Pakistan region, Kalsash/Baloch, Turkey/Steppe Turkic, possibly with a little Native American thrown in :) . I'm guessing that might mean Steppe-related? I don't have the level of knowledge of different cultures and migrations that some people here do but I'm trying to learn. :) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-05-2017, 06:48 AM
Hi John, yes the same would of course apply to Irish/Welsh populations in general -- I was merely referring to "you" in second person for literary effect since you're the OP :nerd:
Ben

- maybe this finally explains why Welsh/Irish actress Catherine Zeta Jones can pass for Mediterranean ;):



Catherine Zeta-Jones(L), Spanish actor Anotinio Banderas (R)
https://i.imgur.com/kFaxU94.jpg


Sardinian Actress - Caterina Murino
https://i.imgur.com/0OmPvc5.jpg

Both stunning actresses btw; I'll admit I'm a sucker for the dark brunettes:eyebrows:




Quit a few people comment on alleged physical similarities between certain Welsh people and Iberians, commencing with Tacitus in the Roman period. :)
It's not very scientific but I suppose there could be some basis to it in terms of shared ancestral origins. It would be very easy to mistake some modern Welsh people for Iberians. John

Pylsteen
09-05-2017, 08:53 AM
Sorry if my use of terms is confusing. In my own case I am referring to (similarities with) NW Pakistan region, Kalsash/Baloch, Turkey/Steppe Turkic, possibly with a little Native American thrown in :) . I'm guessing that might mean Steppe-related? I don't have the level of knowledge of different cultures and migrations that some people here do but I'm trying to learn. :) John


Steppe related would be the most logical explanation, I believe.

avalon
09-05-2017, 07:06 PM
Yes, all I'm wondering is whether the Insular Celtic might actually be lower in Wales or parts of Wales relatively speaking. My understanding is that Welsh DNA appears to be different to some extent to other parts of the UK and there is actually a difference between North and South Wales although I don't pretend to understand the fine detail. :) John


I think the current genetic evidence does point towards the Celtic areas of the Isles having more steppe like ancestry, whereas England has more of the Neolithic farmer type ancestry.

However... I know I am repeating myself, but I believe, particularly in the case of Wales, we are working with very limited data. As far as I know, the only genetic study that has actually done solid autosomalDNA testing of the Welsh population is POBI, so only a tiny fraction of the Welsh population has had it's autosomalDNA tested. And we have absolutely no data about what the Welsh population looked like 200 or 400 years ago or whatever..

In terms of ancientDNA, again I think the data is very limited for Wales, although I don't think there is much doubt that there was a major population change in the Bronze Age in Britain.

There was that recent Bell Beaker paper that had 2 Bronze Age Welsh samples but that's it as far as i know, so more research is needed and the full story since the Bronze Age is probably quite complicated and possibly varies from one place to the next.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-05-2017, 07:47 PM
I think the current genetic evidence does point towards the Celtic areas of the Isles having more steppe like ancestry, whereas England has more of the Neolithic farmer type ancestry.

However... I know I am repeating myself, but I believe, particularly in the case of Wales, we are working with very limited data. As far as I know, the only genetic study that has actually done solid autosomalDNA testing of the Welsh population is POBI, so only a tiny fraction of the Welsh population has had it's autosomalDNA tested. And we have absolutely no data about what the Welsh population looked like 200 or 400 years ago or whatever..

In terms of ancientDNA, again I think the data is very limited for Wales, although I don't think there is much doubt that there was a major population change in the Bronze Age in Britain.

There was that recent Bell Beaker paper that had 2 Bronze Age Welsh samples but that's it as far as i know, so more research is needed and the full story since the Bronze Age is probably quite complicated and possibly varies from one place to the next.

I suppose it's difficult to make a direct comparison between Wales and England that far back because England was affected much more by later migrations. If we could compare the pre- Anglo Saxon or even pre - Roman populations that would be interesting but I guess impossible.
You are right, the number of people in Wales with older Welsh ancestry who have tested must be a tiny minority, which is a shame. I wonder what happened to the Cymru Britain's DNA data? Nothing I suspect, which was a missed opportunity. Those people probably aren't going to re-test.John

avalon
09-06-2017, 07:49 AM
I suppose it's difficult to make a direct comparison between Wales and England that far back because England was affected much more by later migrations. If we could compare the pre- Anglo Saxon or even pre - Roman populations that would be interesting but I guess impossible.
You are right, the number of people in Wales with older Welsh ancestry who have tested must be a tiny minority, which is a shame. I wonder what happened to the Cymru Britain's DNA data? Nothing I suspect, which was a missed opportunity. Those people probably aren't going to re-test.John

Yes, really we need ancientDNA from various points in Welsh history, you know going right back to Neolithic, Bronze Age, Iron Age but even in historic times -Roman period, Anglo-Saxon period, Norman period, through the middle ages, etc. The problem is the availability of skeletal remains to test, archaeologists may not have very much in Wales, the acidic soils do not preserve well.

CymruDNA does seem to have been a missed opportunity, although I think their focus was mainly y-dna, rather than autosomal. That's why I'd really like to see a thorough genetic study of Wales, something like the Irish DNA Atlas.

Nqp15hhu
08-22-2020, 03:34 PM
I have south Asian that pops up in several sites. Here is my Gedmatch results.

K12b
Population
S-Indian 0.18 Pct
Baloch 12.34 Pct
Caucasian 4.74 Pct
NE-Euro 51.02 Pct
SE-Asian -
Siberian 0.35 Pct
NE-Asian -
Papuan 0.32 Pct
American -
Beringian -
Mediterranean 31.05 Pct
SW-Asian -
San -
E-African -
Pygmy -
W-African -

K13
Population
North_Atlantic 50.80 Pct
Baltic 22.63 Pct
West_Med 13.37 Pct
West_Asian 8.70 Pct
East_Med 0.16 Pct
Red_Sea 0.40 Pct
South_Asian 2.64 Pct
East_Asian -
Siberian 0.28 Pct
Amerindian 0.23 Pct
Oceanian 0.78 Pct
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

It was suggested that this was Romany but now not.

I would believe itĺs statistical noise but it continually appears on each tool, so it must be something.