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Principe
09-02-2017, 05:24 PM
This is the Breakdown for Basilicata, same concept as Puglia, the sample size is a bit larger at 43.

This is the Haplogroup Breakdown:

J2a: 24%
G: 21%
E: 16%
R1b: 16%
J1: 7%
I2: 7%
T: 5%
I1: 2%
R1a: 2%

For J2a: We have 1 J-L254, 1J-FGC21360, 1 J-Y15222 (me), 1 J-CTS900, 1 J-PF5191, 1 J-SK1337, 1 J-PH2651, 1 J-PF5456, 1 J-S21160, and 1 J-L581.

For G: We have 2 G-Z39308, 1 G-Z17887, 1 G-Z725, 1 G-L497, 1 G-Z27264, 1 G-M342 (G1), 1 G-U1, and 1 G-L140.

For E: We have 5 under E-V13, well 1 is E-L618 (so pre E-V13), 1 E-CTS9320, 1 E-S7461, 1 E-Z5017 and 1 E-Y3183. We have 1 E-V12 and 1 E-PF6751 (E-M84).

For R1b: We have 2 just at R-M269, 1 R-BY3294, 1 R-L21, 1 R-Z36 and 2 at R-U152.

For J1: We have 1 J-L858, 1 J-M9119 (J1-YSC76) and 1 J-ZS9034 (J1-YSC76).

For I2: We have 2 just at I-M223 and 1 I-P37.

For T: We have 1 T-CTS933 and 1 T-Y8614 (T-Y14629 to be precise).

For I1: We have 1 I-S20289.

For R1a: We have 1 R-YP1337.

Sorcelow
09-06-2017, 04:20 AM
Any J2a-M319?

Principe
09-06-2017, 11:45 AM
Any J2a-M319?

At the moment no, at least none on ftdna, the sample size for Basilicata is quite small at 43 individuals, I am sure it would appear if the sample size was larger.

Principe
10-09-2019, 10:10 PM
A little update as there are 52 samples from Matera which are usually used in genetic papers involving Southern Italy.

E: 22%
J2a: 21%
R1b: 19%
G: 17%
I2: 6%
T: 6%
J1: 3%
R1a: 3%
L: 2%
I1: 1%

Interesting observations that L was found, and that E becomes the most frequent Y line in Basilicata, J2a remains a close second. G and R1b essentially swap places, although G is still high at 17%.

E breakdown: there are an additional 7 E-V13's all of which are under Z5017, so that would make E-V13 make 12 out of the 20 samples (60% of E), 4 additional E-V12's coupled with the other makes 5 of the 20 samples (25% of E) all of the E-V12 including the one used from ftdna come from Matera so this might be a founder effect, looks like Matera has the highest % of E-V12 in Europe. The remaining 2 new samples are E-V22 and E-L791>Y4972, so with the E-M84 result makes E-M123 2 of the 20 samples (10% of E) and 1 out of 20 being E-V22 (5% of E).

J2a breakdown: there are an additional 2 J2a-SK1336 coupled with the previous two would make J-SK1336 4 out of 19 samples (21% of J2a), 2 additional Z6271 which added with the other results makes J-Z6271 3 out of 19 samples (16% of J2a), 1 additional J2a-CTS900 and 1 additional J2a-PH2651 (M92>CTS2906) bring both to 2 out of 19 (10% of J2a), new samples include 2 new J2a-YP879 samples (10% of J2a) and 1 new J2a-Z6057 (5% of J2a). Other older single samples include J2a-Y15222, J2a2-PF5008, J2a-L254, J2a-PF5191>PF5177, and J2a-PF5456 all of course represent (5% of J2a).

R1b breakdown: we have an additional 3 R1b-U152 all samples seem to belong to L2 but I won't put it as certain, in total R1b-U152 makes up 6 of the 17 samples (35% of R1b), we have 1 R1b-Z2103>L584, 1 R1b-Z2103>PH4902, and 2 R1b-Z2103>Y4362>BY13830, making Z2103 total 5 out 17 samples (29% of R1b), we have 1 additional R1b-L21 making it 2 out of 17 samples (11% of R1b), as well as 2 new R1b-DF27 (11% of R1b), as well as a new R1b-U106 (6% of R1b).

G breakdown: There are 2 additional G-M406 samples which coupled with older results makes it 3 out of 16 samples (19%), there are 2 additional G-Z1903 samples making it 3 out of 16 samples (19% of G), 1 additional G-L497 sample making it 3 out of 16 (19% of G), 1 new G sample of G-L91 (6% of G) and 1 new G-Z6552 (6% of G).

I2 breakdown: 2 new samples belong to I2-Y3709, 1 new sample of I2-Y5561 and 1 new sample of I-L621.

T breakdown: There is 1 additional sample of T-CTS54 making it 2 out 7 samples (28% of T), 2 new samples belong under T-Y4911 making it 2 out of 7 samples (28% of T), and 1 new sample of T-L131>Y13244 (14% of T).

R1a breakdown: We have 2 new samples 1 belonging to R1a-Z284 and the 1 belong to R1a-Z93>Y934.

L breakdown: L was discovered amongst these samples both L samples belong to L1b-M317>M349 (100% of L).

Bane
10-10-2019, 05:35 AM
A little update as there are 52 samples from Matera which are usually used in genetic papers involving Southern Italy.

E: 22%

E breakdown: there are an additional 7 E-V13's all of which are under Z5017

Thank you!
How did you determine those are all Z5017? Are STR or SNP results available somewhere? Is it possible to break those down to even lower subbranches?

vettor
10-10-2019, 08:33 AM
A little update as there are 52 samples from Matera which are usually used in genetic papers involving Southern Italy.

E: 22%
J2a: 21%
R1b: 19%
G: 17%
I2: 6%
T: 6%
J1: 3%
R1a: 3%
L: 2%
I1: 1%

Interesting observations that L was found, and that E becomes the most frequent Y line in Basilicata, J2a remains a close second. G and R1b essentially swap places, although G is still high at 17%.

E breakdown: there are an additional 7 E-V13's all of which are under Z5017, so that would make E-V13 make 12 out of the 20 samples (60% of E), 4 additional E-V12's coupled with the other makes 5 of the 20 samples (25% of E) all of the E-V12 including the one used from ftdna come from Matera so this might be a founder effect, looks like Matera has the highest % of E-V12 in Europe. The remaining 2 new samples are E-V22 and E-L791>Y4972, so with the E-M84 result makes E-M123 2 of the 20 samples (10% of E) and 1 out of 20 being E-V22 (5% of E).

J2a breakdown: there are an additional 2 J2a-SK1336 coupled with the previous two would make J-SK1336 4 out of 19 samples (21% of J2a), 2 additional Z6271 which added with the other results makes J-Z6271 3 out of 19 samples (16% of J2a), 1 additional J2a-CTS900 and 1 additional J2a-PH2651 (M92>CTS2906) bring both to 2 out of 19 (10% of J2a), new samples include 2 new J2a-YP879 samples (10% of J2a) and 1 new J2a-Z6057 (5% of J2a). Other older single samples include J2a-Y15222, J2a2-PF5008, J2a-L254, J2a-PF5191>PF5177, and J2a-PF5456 all of course represent (5% of J2a).

R1b breakdown: we have an additional 3 R1b-U152 all samples seem to belong to L2 but I won't put it as certain, in total R1b-U152 makes up 6 of the 17 samples (35% of R1b), we have 1 R1b-Z2103>L584, 1 R1b-Z2103>PH4902, and 2 R1b-Z2103>Y4362>BY13830, making Z2103 total 5 out 17 samples (29% of R1b), we have 1 additional R1b-L21 making it 2 out of 17 samples (11% of R1b), as well as 2 new R1b-DF27 (11% of R1b), as well as a new R1b-U106 (6% of R1b).

G breakdown: There are 2 additional G-M406 samples which coupled with older results makes it 3 out of 16 samples (19%), there are 2 additional G-Z1903 samples making it 3 out of 16 samples (19% of G), 1 additional G-L497 sample making it 3 out of 16 (19% of G), 1 new G sample of G-L91 (6% of G) and 1 new G-Z6552 (6% of G).

I2 breakdown: 2 new samples belong to I2-Y3709, 1 new sample of I2-Y5561 and 1 new sample of I-L621.

T breakdown: There is 1 additional sample of T-CTS54 making it 2 out 7 samples (28% of T), 2 new samples belong under T-Y4911 making it 2 out of 7 samples (28% of T), and 1 new sample of T-L131>Y13244 (14% of T).

R1a breakdown: We have 2 new samples 1 belonging to R1a-Z284 and the 1 belong to R1a-Z93>Y934.

L breakdown: L was discovered amongst these samples both L samples belong to L1b-M317>M349 (100% of L).

T-CTS54 and CTS933 sits with T-L131, as T-L131 is the main snp of the T1a2 branch

vettor
10-10-2019, 03:29 PM
This is the Breakdown for Basilicata, same concept as Puglia, the sample size is a bit larger at 43.

This is the Haplogroup Breakdown:

J2a: 24%
G: 21%
E: 16%
R1b: 16%
J1: 7%
I2: 7%
T: 5%
I1: 2%
R1a: 2%

For J2a: We have 1 J-L254, 1J-FGC21360, 1 J-Y15222 (me), 1 J-CTS900, 1 J-PF5191, 1 J-SK1337, 1 J-PH2651, 1 J-PF5456, 1 J-S21160, and 1 J-L581.

For G: We have 2 G-Z39308, 1 G-Z17887, 1 G-Z725, 1 G-L497, 1 G-Z27264, 1 G-M342 (G1), 1 G-U1, and 1 G-L140.

For E: We have 5 under E-V13, well 1 is E-L618 (so pre E-V13), 1 E-CTS9320, 1 E-S7461, 1 E-Z5017 and 1 E-Y3183. We have 1 E-V12 and 1 E-PF6751 (E-M84).

For R1b: We have 2 just at R-M269, 1 R-BY3294, 1 R-L21, 1 R-Z36 and 2 at R-U152.

For J1: We have 1 J-L858, 1 J-M9119 (J1-YSC76) and 1 J-ZS9034 (J1-YSC76).

For I2: We have 2 just at I-M223 and 1 I-P37.

For T: We have 1 T-CTS933 and 1 T-Y8614 (T-Y14629 to be precise).

For I1: We have 1 I-S20289.

For R1a: We have 1 R-YP1337.

What paper is this data from ?

Principe
10-10-2019, 03:55 PM
What paper is this data from ?

Its from this paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/

Principe
10-10-2019, 04:01 PM
Thank you!
How did you determine those are all Z5017? Are STR or SNP results available somewhere? Is it possible to break those down to even lower subbranches?

Well its based on str’s and nevgen so it won’t go very in depth. 3 of them appear to be under CTS9320 but I am not confident enough to put it officially because were dealing with 17 str’s its not like ftdna’s database when you have a Y25 or Y37 the snp will be easier to determine but enough to get the paraclade, even in the 5 from ftdna 2 are under Z5017 so this appears to be the dominant E-V13 branch in the area.

vettor
10-10-2019, 04:13 PM
Its from this paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/

Thanks

this paper with the recent paper of emilia-romagna + veneto showing another 7% of my line ...T-L131 .........seems to me that the ancient Umbri are deeply involved .....my thoughts

Principe
10-10-2019, 05:59 PM
Thanks

this paper with the recent paper of emilia-romagna + veneto showing another 7% of my line ...T-L131 .........seems to me that the ancient Umbri are deeply involved .....my thoughts

My pleasure!

And we’ll see so far based on the rumours it looks like the Italic tribes were a mixture of R1b-U152, G and J2b-L283.

Odysseus1
10-10-2019, 06:05 PM
My pleasure!

And we’ll see so far based on the rumours it looks like the Italic tribes were a mixture of R1b-U152, G and J2b-L283.

I still wait today a study about inland areas from Central Italy toward South. I bet that the inhabitants of these mountainous areas have predominantly italic ancestry (Campanian mountains, Calabria inland, Lazio inland etc.)…

This will show up in haplogroups as well.

vettor
10-11-2019, 01:20 AM
Its from this paper

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4757772/

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22677

Did any of your numbers come from what i attached

Sikeliot
10-11-2019, 01:48 AM
Do we see evidence in the haplogroups of Greek ancestry?

Principe
10-11-2019, 02:23 AM
Do we see evidence in the haplogroups of Greek ancestry?

Well I am sure quite a bit will be Greek in origin, remember Greeks haven’t done enough NGS testing to see if we have matching Y branches.

One of the J2a’s is the exact same as the Mycenaean.

Principe
10-11-2019, 02:24 AM
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajhb.22677

Did any of your numbers come from what i attached

No none did, I just checked from the paper I quoted and looked at the Matera samples.

Sikeliot
10-11-2019, 02:27 AM
Well I am sure quite a bit will be Greek in origin, remember Greeks haven’t done enough NGS testing to see if we have matching Y branches.

One of the J2a’s is the exact same as the Mycenaean.

I would expect Basilicata to be even more Greek than either Campania or Sicily. But we'll see.

Principe
10-11-2019, 02:31 AM
I would expect Basilicata to be even more Greek than either Campania or Sicily. But we'll see.

Than Campania its a guaranteed lock, but Sicily I doubt well the East Coast at least, remember Basilicata’s population is 800 000 and Sicily is 5 000 000, there’s definitely more Greek descendants in Sicily than Basilicata, but if your talking in terms of on average person, more than West and Central Sicily, definately less than the East.

vettor
10-11-2019, 04:53 PM
No none did, I just checked from the paper I quoted and looked at the Matera samples.

Basilicata, the name was only in use from 1000AD, before this they where

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucanians

Lucani an ancient Umbri tribe that spoke oscan-umbrian language

Principe
10-11-2019, 05:47 PM
Basilicata, the name was only in use from 1000AD, before this they where

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucanians

Lucani an ancient Umbri tribe that spoke oscan-umbrian language

Yes I am aware the Lucanians were a Osco-Umbrian tribe, but the Lucanians were not the only people to inhabit the area, there were Greeks and Oenotrians. The more South you go the less of genetic impact the Italic tribes had honestly. I would say Greek is the most dominant genetic profile, of course the areas more North will be more Italic like, Matera is somewhere in between as it was fairly close to 2 major Greek colonies being Taranto and Metaponto, and the South of the region had several Greek colonies.

vettor
10-15-2019, 04:19 PM
Yes I am aware the Lucanians were a Osco-Umbrian tribe, but the Lucanians were not the only people to inhabit the area, there were Greeks and Oenotrians. The more South you go the less of genetic impact the Italic tribes had honestly. I would say Greek is the most dominant genetic profile, of course the areas more North will be more Italic like, Matera is somewhere in between as it was fairly close to 2 major Greek colonies being Taranto and Metaponto, and the South of the region had several Greek colonies.

agree with what you say

I believe the bulk of italic people , not including Greeks or beyond the Po river to be of Umbri and etrusci in origin

eblashko
12-17-2020, 08:18 PM
... and 2 R1b-Z2103>Y4362>BY13830....

Sorry I'm a little late to the conversation, but any chance you remember or could check which two samples were BY13830? How were you able to come to that conclusion, just by comparing STRs or are there files with SNPs anywhere out there?

Thanks for any information!

Principe
12-17-2020, 08:48 PM
Sorry I'm a little late to the conversation, but any chance you remember or could check which two samples were BY13830? How were you able to come to that conclusion, just by comparing STRs or are there files with SNPs anywhere out there?

Thanks for any information!

Don't worry about it, it was based of the Str's of 2 of the samples via nevgen, but there is few str's to make it certain. There is a decent amount of Y4364 in Southern Italy, though it is likely all very young and won't postdate people from East migrating to Roman Italy.

eblashko
12-17-2020, 09:05 PM
Thanks for the reply.

Yes, it looks like there are a few branches of Y4364 which have made their way to Italy, of which Y4366 is one of them (NA20532 on Yfull from Firenze is the only one I can find) in addition to the other Italian Y4364 branches (BY3716 and Y58371).

Anyway, thanks for the help!