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firemonkey
09-06-2017, 12:37 AM
In my case 15% Great Britain. I get 38% Irish. My known ancestry English 50% Scottish 31% Irish 19%

Sikeliot
09-06-2017, 12:44 AM
In my case 15% Great Britain. I get 38% Irish. My known ancestry English 50% Scottish 31% Irish 19%

This is my opinion: Ancestry.com poorly chose a very Anglo-Saxon influenced part of England to be the 'Great Britain' reference population, which makes the less Anglo-Saxon parts of England come up more Irish, as well as the Scottish and Welsh scoring higher Ireland. The Irish component is likely the more indigenous one in the British isles, and it would have been more meaningful to have "Great Britain" be centered on a more indigenous part of the UK, which would reduce the amount of Irish that the British are scoring.

spruithean
09-06-2017, 12:45 AM
Likely something to do with the overall similarities between the people of Ireland and Britain along with the similarities to people in the rest of Europe. I feel ethnic estimations are not an exact science.

EDIT:

Also Sikeliot has a valid point that I had not yet thought about!

Sikeliot
09-06-2017, 12:57 AM
Also the fact that the British score more Irish than the reverse implies that the Irish is the "original" British Isles component and the British descend from Irish-like people, rather than the reverse, though I do believe with all of Ireland sampled, you would find some Irish scoring substantial British, especially around Dublin and along the southeastern coast (Cork, Waterford, Wexford) and likely some in the more Norman-influenced parts of Connacht.

However, due to the fact that all of these Northwest Europeans are primarily Bell Beaker descendants, on GEDmatch it is difficult to tell recent from ancient ancestry and the Irish, English, Scots, and Welsh are nearly indistinguishable on there.

If I had to guess, I would assume the "Great Britain" component is centered around Kent, East Anglia, or Essex.

sktibo
09-06-2017, 12:59 AM
Their GB reference population seems to be strongly Southern (Southeast I think) English, which we know now to be a highly mixed population for the English - and the people I've seen who get extraordinarily high GB percentages have been Southern English or people from mixed backgrounds. There's a thread I started somewhere exploring how the GB category splits into Scandinavia, EW, and Ireland when the same person tests twice, while many other European populations remain the same on the second test.

What did you get for Europe West? a lot of people with English ancestry seem to land closer to Europe West than they do to Ancestry's "Great Britain"


This is my opinion: Ancestry.com poorly chose a very Anglo-Saxon influenced part of England to be the 'Great Britain' reference population, which makes the less Anglo-Saxon parts of England come up more Irish, as well as the Scottish and Welsh scoring higher Ireland. The Irish component is likely the more indigenous one in the British isles, and it would have been more meaningful to have "Great Britain" be centered on a more indigenous part of the UK, which would reduce the amount of Irish that the British are scoring.

I think so, although interestingly there's a YouTube video of a Welsh individual talking about his and his father's Ancestry DNA results: His dad, although being North Welsh from time immemorial, got a pretty high GB percentage. IIRC it was about 60% GB 30% Ireland. The individual who made the video was also Welsh but got about an even split between Ireland and Great Britain... 50 50 ish IIRC. I've ranted about this elsewhere but I'll say it again here, I'd love to see Ancestry's test without the GB component, those results would be a lot more useful.

Sikeliot
09-06-2017, 01:07 AM
Their GB reference population seems to be strongly Southern (Southeast I think) English, which we know now to be a highly mixed population for the English - and the people I've seen who get extraordinarily high GB percentages have been Southern English or people from mixed backgrounds.

Based on the spreadsheet made by a user here who compiled results, West Midlands, northern England, and even some parts of the east that are not the far southeast scored more of the Irish component than any other. Southeast England and East Anglia are the ones scoring (and likely comprising) the Great Britain component.

As for the Irish, the Great Britain component seems highest (2-3%, which is almost nothing) in the south of Ireland, Munster province, but a few people from Connacht scored 1-2%. These people, otherwise, score nearly full Irish. One person from Northern Ireland scored 88% Irish, 5% Europe West, but no British.

firemonkey
09-06-2017, 01:10 AM
Their GB reference population seems to be strongly Southern (Southeast I think) English, which we know now to be a highly mixed population for the English - and the people I've seen who get extraordinarily high GB percentages have been Southern English or people from mixed backgrounds. There's a thread I started somewhere exploring how the GB category splits into Scandinavia, EW, and Ireland when the same person tests twice, while many other European populations remain the same on the second test.

What did you get for Europe West? a lot of people with English ancestry seem to land closer to Europe West than they do to Ancestry's "Great Britain"

My full breakdown: Irish 38% Scandinavian 23% Europe West 22% Great Britain 15% Europe East <1% Italy/Greece <1%

sktibo
09-06-2017, 01:14 AM
My full breakdown: Irish 38% Scandinavian 23% Europe West 22% Great Britain 15% Europe East <1% Italy/Greece <1%

Thought that would be the case. I think it is a good indication of a problematic reference population when your Europe West population is a closer match than Great Britain for people with significant English ancestry


Based on the spreadsheet made by a user here who compiled results, West Midlands, northern England, and even some parts of the east that are not the far southeast scored more of the Irish component than any other. Southeast England and East Anglia are the ones scoring (and likely comprising) the Great Britain component.

As for the Irish, the Great Britain component seems highest (2-3%, which is almost nothing) in the south of Ireland, Munster province, but a few people from Connacht scored 1-2%. These people, otherwise, score nearly full Irish. One person from Northern Ireland scored 88% Irish, 5% Europe West, but no British.

Thank goodness for Don Felipe collecting those results, going off of what Ancestry DNA publishes could drive a beginning DNA tester crazy with confusion. I think it's JDay on here who is a mixture of Irish, German, and English, and he got over 90% Great Britain IIRC, while belonging to an Irish genetic community. His results are a great example of how a mixed Northern European will appear to Ancestry as almost entirely Great Britain, and we do know that the Southeastern English are the most mixed of the English genetic groups so I think this is why this sort of thing happens. I'm 73% Great Britain myself on Ancestry DNA and you can see in my signature that I'm quite mixed.

Edit: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1473-AncestryDNA-Ethnicity-Estimates&p=240152#post240152
Jday's results. Post #157. 91% Great Britain, only 3% Ireland despite significant Irish ancestry, looks to be mostly German.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-06-2017, 06:54 AM
Ancestry seem to have a very limited understanding of British origins. They seem to think British and Anglo Saxon are the same thing. I wouldn't test with them to be honest not for British ancestry anyway. John

L1983
09-06-2017, 07:31 AM
I got 61% Europe West and <1% GB with Ancestry. Mum got roughly 30/40 split between Europe West and GB without looking.

Edit: added our results

Edit: We are also predominantly Southern English, with my dad having a grandmother from Cork.

L-R Me, dad, mum

JerryS.
09-06-2017, 01:51 PM
I am a mix of "Colonial American", North German, and Southern Italian. Ancestry .com gave me a higher Great Britain score than the average native Great Britain person.

ADW_1981
09-06-2017, 01:52 PM
In my case 15% Great Britain. I get 38% Irish. My known ancestry English 50% Scottish 31% Irish 19%

Good question. I get 2% GB and 67% Europe West.

sktibo
09-06-2017, 03:42 PM
I got 61% Europe West and <1% GB with Ancestry. Mum got roughly 30/40 split between Europe West and GB without looking.

Edit: added our results

Edit: We are also predominantly Southern English, with my dad having a grandmother from Cork.

Which part(s) of southern England?


Good question. I get 2% GB and 67% Europe West.

Can you remind me which parts of England your people came from?


I am a mix of "Colonial American", North German, and Southern Italian. Ancestry .com gave me a higher Great Britain score than the average native Great Britain person.

Another example of Ancestry DNA assigning a huge amount of GB to a mixed individual. My friend who I suggested Ancestry to for an entry level DNA kit (and he still hasn't forgiven me for it!) ended up getting 88% Great Britain, 6% Ireland, and the rest trace regions. Although he is mostly British, he's about 25% Scottish, much of which is Gaelic/Highland, and the rest Aberdeenshire area. He's also 12.5% Swedish. He was really shocked (disappointed) to see no Scandinavian percentage. In the end, we concluded that Ancestry's GB category "ate" his Scandinavian and the Ireland percentage he would/should have received from his Scottish ancestry and averaged them into the Great Britain category. He was worried he wasn't actually Swedish, but in his family his Swedish ancestry is quite recent.. in the end he took 23andme which correctly identified him as part Scandinavian, in an acceptable percentage for his known ancestry. The fact that Ancestry assigned 0% Scandinavian to an individual who has a great-grandparent who was born in Scandinavia, while assigning my father 11% (whose only Scandinavian connection is a tiny amount of Orcadian ancestry) is impressively bad in my opinion.

L1983
09-06-2017, 04:09 PM
Which part(s) of southern England?



Can you remind me which parts of England your people came from?





Known ancestry maternal: Kent, Essex, South London, Sussex, Somerset, Lincolnshire

Paternal: East London, South London, Hertfordshire, Cork, Staffordshire, Sussex

Probably more but haven't looked for ages.

Edit: Mums paternal side seemed to have been in South London from at least 1750. Haven't gone much further back. Bit of a shock as I thought they were Scottish at first!

sktibo
09-06-2017, 04:10 PM
Known ancestry maternal: Kent, Essex, South London, Sussex, Somerset, Lincolnshire

Paternal: East London, South London, Hertfordshire, Cork, Staffordshire, Sussex

Probably more but haven't looked for ages.

Thank you, so it is your mom's results that show the 36% GB then?

L1983
09-06-2017, 04:14 PM
Thank you, so it is your mom's results that show the 36% GB then?

Yes sorry. Mine was 61% Europe West. Mum's is split between Europe West + GB (34%) and dad's has majority Irish (48%) according to Ancestry.

Shaikorth
09-06-2017, 04:21 PM
This happens because ADMIXTURE-based methods are not precise enough to tell many Northwest Europeans apart from each other.

As seen in the table below, the academic GBR samples from 1000genomes (all 4 grandparents British, mostly from Cornwall and Kent), get basically anything between 0% and 100% Great Britain using the AncestryDNA platform. Median is just 36%. It's even worse for HGDP French who tend to get more GB than West European (supposed to represent French and German).
http://www.nature.com/article-assets/npg/ncomms/2017/170207/ncomms14238/extref/ncomms14238-s4.xlsx

Nqp15hhu
09-06-2017, 06:41 PM
In my case 15% Great Britain. I get 38% Irish. My known ancestry English 50% Scottish 31% Irish 19%
I'm from NI and I got 0% GB meanwhile getting 1% Pacific Island, I have similar feelings.

Nqp15hhu
09-06-2017, 06:47 PM
I am a mix of "Colonial American", North German, and Southern Italian. Ancestry .com gave me a higher Great Britain score than the average native Great Britain person.
I find it interesting how the Americans seem to record higher GB % than Native born Brits.

Stephen1986
09-06-2017, 07:42 PM
I get the following -

Europe West 38% (range 11-64%)
Ireland 27% (range 10-45%)
Great Britain 26% (0-57%) - the range is quite large
Scandinavia 7% (0-23%)

Here's my known ancestry (the one in the English Channel is actually my great great grandma who was born in Dover, her parents were Irish from Roscommon and Dublin counties) -

18583

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-06-2017, 07:46 PM
If you want to understand why Ancestry get "British" so badly wrong, apart from technical shortcomings maybe, read the link below (a very basic understanding of British History is require) :) .
Basically it goes something like this. Some of your British ancestors only arrived here (in Britain) about 1,500 years ago with the Anglo Saxons and Norse, therefore you aren't really British, you are German and Scandinavian. This is from a time when Countries didn't actually exist.
Here is an amazing surprise, since we are an island, we all came here from somewhere else over the last several thousand years, therefore we aren't really British (so did everyone else, just about everywhere). We are all Africans really aren't we, on this logic?
"It found that, despite the pervasive myth among some people of the ‘real’ Brit, the average UK resident is actually mixed ethnicity – 36.9% Anglo Saxon, 21.6% Celtic, and 19.9% Western (continental) European"
British is basically Anglo Saxon, they say, the earlier inhabitants over the previous several thousand years seem to be mainly French and Spanish.
The really bad news is if you are from America or somewhere else that has seen huge migration over the last few hundred years and you think you are an American or whatever, you ain't, you ain't even close. I'll leave it to you to decide whether this is just a lack of understanding. John

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwje-5aboJHWAhWIbhQKHTKpA4QQFghRMAY&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmetro.co.uk%2F2016%2F07%2F28%2Fit s-more-than-likely-youre-not-ethnically-british-6034191%2F&usg=AFQjCNFaCoio0VyFbHfyJCRSPnta7UsfPQ

JerryS.
09-06-2017, 07:48 PM
I find it interesting how the Americans seem to record higher GB % than Native born Brits. on Ancestry .com that is. this company seems slanted towards the American audience......

sktibo
09-06-2017, 07:50 PM
I find it interesting how the Americans seem to record higher GB % than Native born Brits.

I'm fairly sure it's because Americans are often of mixed descent, and the GB category on Ancestry uses a fairly mixed reference population for its Great Britain category, the southeast English. It is interesting, and very confusing! The Irish and Western Scottish aside, Ancestry seems to be a very bad choice for people of British Isles descent a lot of the time, as we can see from the inconsistency in the results posted here

Amerijoe
09-06-2017, 09:19 PM
Ireland 49% range 25-72
Great Britain47%. range 21-72%
Low Confidence Region
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece < 1%
Europe West < 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%

Livingdna Isles results break down as follows.
Scotland/N. Ireland 51.8%
English related. 27.7%
Ireland. 14.7%.

Due to circumstances beyond my control, I cannot confirm or refute these results. In my opinion, this is a concerted effort to 'Knock the Scot' out of me. The start of this effort was first encountered in earnest upon my arrival to the States. This has been recently verified by the US State Department issuing me an updated passport where place of birth has been changed from Scotland to the U.K. Now if I could only knock the Scot out of Ancestry's categories or are they in on it. Shouldn't have read the thread on neuroticism. ;)

Trixster
09-06-2017, 09:21 PM
Ancestry seem to have a very limited understanding of British origins. They seem to think British and Anglo Saxon are the same thing. I wouldn't test with them to be honest not for British ancestry anyway. John

John, I have read that about several of the DNA testing companies. Do not know for a fact though (I have no known or identified British ancestry myself). I am going to have to educate myself as well on the terms you just mentioned.

sktibo
09-06-2017, 10:29 PM
All ancestry does, like all these ethnicity tests, is match you with the best "match".

What I'm saying is that if you pick a population that is mixed, then other people which are mixed are going to match with that population. We know that mixed people often get a lot of Great Britain, and that someone with all ancestry from Kent got 94% Great Britain, indicating that SE England is a place where lots of samples are from for the GB category. We also know that the southeast English are a genetically mixed population. So, mixed people end up matching with a mixed population; and to clarify that when I say mixed here I'm referring to mixed NW European people.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:45 AM
Mixed what though? They must share something to match up.

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2017, 06:43 AM
John, I have read that about several of the DNA testing companies. Do not know for a fact though (I have no known or identified British ancestry myself). I am going to have to educate myself as well on the terms you just mentioned.

I would have thought a company telling people whether or not they have British ancestry should at least understand how that ancestry is made up.
The term "Briton" was first used widely by the Romans who invaded about 44 AD to describe the Celtic or Brythonic peoples who lived in what is now Scotland England and Wales, although these countries didn't exist that far back. Supposedly the Romans left little genetic impact on that population.
The next big migration event was the Anglo Saxons and Vikings from about 410 AD. The Anglo Saxons did leave a significant genetic impact mainly in what is now England but even there it didn't entirely replace the DNA of the earlier population. Even in Eastern England which had the biggest impact, the Anglo Saxon DNA is estimated to be around one third at most, in other parts of England in the West it is considerable less.
Then you had the invasion of the Normans in 1066 who apparently also left little genetic impact because of relatively small numbers.
Britain is not England or "Angle Land". The pre-Anglo Saxon populations are most strongly represented in Scotland and Wales but also in England. This is a bit simplified, but just shows that it's much more complicated than presented.
In my personal opinion the only existing DNA testing company that deals with Britain reasonable effectively is LivingDNA, at least they are realistic about what they can and can't tell you. John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2017, 07:03 AM
What I'm saying is that if you pick a population that is mixed, then other people which are mixed are going to match with that population. We know that mixed people often get a lot of Great Britain, and that someone with all ancestry from Kent got 94% Great Britain, indicating that SE England is a place where lots of samples are from for the GB category. We also know that the southeast English are a genetically mixed population. So, mixed people end up matching with a mixed population; and to clarify that when I say mixed here I'm referring to mixed NW European people.

but it's misleading to tell people you can identify their ancestral origins(by country) if you can't. John

Jessie
09-07-2017, 07:46 AM
but it's misleading to tell people you can identify their ancestral origins(by country) if you can't. John

I personally think they shouldn't give a name like Ireland or Great Britain to some of these categories. They could possibly name something like Ireland "Insular Celtic" which I think Dubhthach suggested and Great Britain as Skitbo has said is more a mixed category and could be incorporated into Europe West. I often see people that get something like Ireland 5% think this means actual Irish ancestry and say they didn't know they had Irish ancestry and they start looking for it. :) I've also seen people dumbfounded about why they don't get the Great Britain category when they are British.

I think they are trying to appeal to Americans who want to know their ancestry. I know people with very high Ireland scores are Irish and the component reaches a maximum there but a lot of people get Ireland without any Irish ancestry. It confuses people.

09-07-2017, 10:12 AM
I think Ancestry, and all DNA companies have to appeal to the masses, and what they can understand. They have a business model they follow.

Some of us here plainly have a deep understanding of History, others a Deep understanding of DNA, others a passing interest, but the majority of testers I think it's fair to say do not have this level of knowledge or interest.

They just a curious to know where their family originates. The difficulty is pleasing all of the people all of the time.

Clearly there were different Celtic Migrations to Britain and Ireland, hence why Q-Celic is older than P-Celtic, Bell Beaker Migrations, early form of Proto Celtic, then Halstadt Celtic, later still La Tene Celtic populations and languages washed onto these islands, creating different tribes and languages, I believe the later germanics, were more corded ware, which brought different subclades of r1b, and I that was already present and some r1a later.

Whatever we call these group names, we will not be able to please all of the people all of the time (What about how myheritage does it? (Ireland, Scotland, and Wales), and then England, and of course we have the massive overlap in between.
I suppose it would be interesting if some of these companies could add different Reports into their tool.

Calculation of Celtic to Anglo Saxon,
How much Viking I have
Any Roman?
etc etc
Might help people better answer their questions, I guess we all though have a little bit of everything if the truth be told. :beerchug:

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2017, 12:42 PM
I personally think they shouldn't give a name like Ireland or Great Britain to some of these categories. They could possibly name something like Ireland "Insular Celtic" which I think Dubhthach suggested and Great Britain as Skitbo has said is more a mixed category and could be incorporated into Europe West. I often see people that get something like Ireland 5% think this means actual Irish ancestry and say they didn't know they had Irish ancestry and they start looking for it. :) I've also seen people dumbfounded about why they don't get the Great Britain category when they are British.

I think they are trying to appeal to Americans who want to know their ancestry. I know people with very high Ireland scores are Irish and the component reaches a maximum there but a lot of people get Ireland without any Irish ancestry. It confuses people.

Yes I agree with you. On the other hand telling people something which isn't accurate doesn't help them much and Europe West doesn't tell them much either. If they can't tell the difference, fair enough, but they should say so. They seem quick enough to identify French, German, Spanish, Finnish, Russian etc. but they can't identify British accurately - really? I think part of the problem is, unlike LivingDNA they are lumping everything "British" together based on very limited data everything else is French, German or whatever.:) John

JohnHowellsTyrfro
09-07-2017, 12:46 PM
I think Ancestry, and all DNA companies have to appeal to the masses, and what they can understand. They have a business model they follow.

Some of us here plainly have a deep understanding of History, others a Deep understanding of DNA, others a passing interest, but the majority of testers I think it's fair to say do not have this level of knowledge or interest.

They just a curious to know where their family originates. The difficulty is pleasing all of the people all of the time.

Clearly there were different Celtic Migrations to Britain and Ireland, hence why Q-Celic is older than P-Celtic, Bell Beaker Migrations, early form of Proto Celtic, then Halstadt Celtic, later still La Tene Celtic populations and languages washed onto these islands, creating different tribes and languages, I believe the later germanics, were more corded ware, which brought different subclades of r1b, and I that was already present and some r1a later.

Whatever we call these group names, we will not be able to please all of the people all of the time (What about how myheritage does it? (Ireland, Scotland, and Wales), and then England, and of course we have the massive overlap in between.
I suppose it would be interesting if some of these companies could add different Reports into their tool.

Calculation of Celtic to Anglo Saxon,
How much Viking I have
Any Roman?
etc etc
Might help people better answer their questions, I guess we all though have a little bit of everything if the truth be told. :beerchug:

It doesn't take a very deep understanding to know Britain isn't just England and British history didn't start with the Anglo Saxons. Nothing against the Anglo Saxons. ;) John

Jessie
09-07-2017, 02:01 PM
Yes I agree with you. On the other hand telling people something which isn't accurate doesn't help them much and Europe West doesn't tell them much either. If they can't tell the difference, fair enough, but they should say so. They seem quick enough to identify French, German, Spanish, Finnish, Russian etc. but they can't identify British accurately - really? I think part of the problem is, unlike LivingDNA they are lumping everything "British" together based on very limited data everything else is French, German or whatever.:) John

They can't identify French, German, Russian etc either. They all will get a varied AC. The only groups they are fairly good at are some less admixed populations like the Finnish, Basque and possibly Irish but even these groups don't often get 100%.

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 02:04 PM
What about people who get 100% Irish?

Jessie
09-07-2017, 02:39 PM
What about people who get 100% Irish?

Yes it happens but the majority don't get that. Most Irish do get very high amounts of Ireland though but do have small amounts of admixture. Getting 100% would not be a common thing for any group.

sktibo
09-07-2017, 03:08 PM
Mixed what though? They must share something to match up.

The southeast English are geographically closer to mainland Europe. They're more mixed because they probably received more admixture from the Anglo-Saxons, which is probably a northern German and or Scandinavian genetic similarity. Then during the middle ages it looks like there was a fair bit of movement to and from continental Europe and SE England, notably from the low countries, probably France, later on Italy IIRC. No matter how exactly it got there, the result appears to be that the SE English have a more southern European genetic signal than the other English genetic groups.
So, let's look at the case of JerryS, if we may: we have an individual who is English, Italian, German, and a bit of Scottish IIRC and he's claimed he gets GB as his largest component "More GB than the average native" (I'm assuming he means over 60% by this) so this category could well be matching all of his ethnic backgrounds to some extent.
Myself, English, German, Scottish & Scotch Irish, French, Eastern European, ect (see signature) 73% GB.
I think for whatever reason Ancestry's calculator is more inclined to assign people this category if their mix resembles the SE English population rather than accurately splitting an individual's ancestry apart. What is interesting to me is that with less mixed people we can sometimes see a greater variety of results, Ancestry shows myself as homogeneous, but breaks my father's DNA into various regions. He is roughly 44% English, 29% Scottish, 16% French, 6% Welsh, 4% Native American, which is about 80% British Isles and compared to myself is quite unvaried. Here are his Ancestry DNA results:

Europe West 28
Great Britain 26
Ireland 19
Scandinavia 11
Iberia 5
Italy/Greece 3
Finland/NW Russia 2
Asia Central 2
Native American 2
European Jewish <1
Middle East <1

So it has split, fairly evenly, his NW European ancestry into EW, GB, Ireland, and Scandinavia. Despite having many more ethnic backgrounds thanks to my mother, here is how ancestry assigns me:

Great Britain 73
Ireland 6
Iberia 6
Europe East 4
Scandinavia 3
Europe West 2
Finland/NW Russia 2
Native American 2
Italy/Greece <1
Polynesia <1

Let's go back to firemonkey's results, OTTOMH, he's approx 50% English 50% Scottish:
Irish 38% Scandinavian 23% Europe West 22% Great Britain 15% Europe East <1% Italy/Greece <1%
and yet he looks more evenly varied than myself.

So as I hope these results display, Ancestry's calculator took myself, someone who is very mixed, and given me an absolutely massive amount of Great Britain, and taken my father, someone for whom it would make sense to receive 73% Great Britain, and modeled him as more mixed than I am (and far less British). The case isn't that I am more British than my father, not a chance, but that Ancestry's calculator assigns mixed individuals their Great Britain category and this is most likely because their GB category is based upon a highly mixed reference population, the SE English.

Does this answer your question?

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 03:13 PM
What about people who get 100% Irish?

We just call them Healy-Rae's, if ye ever watched a TV interview one, well the less said the better ;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HCxQTNmB2Lc

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 03:16 PM
'NW Insular European' or 'NW European' is what I'd prefer as a label for 'Irish' component in Ancestry.

sktibo
09-07-2017, 03:37 PM
I think Ancestry, and all DNA companies have to appeal to the masses, and what they can understand. They have a business model they follow.

Some of us here plainly have a deep understanding of History, others a Deep understanding of DNA, others a passing interest, but the majority of testers I think it's fair to say do not have this level of knowledge or interest.

They just a curious to know where their family originates. The difficulty is pleasing all of the people all of the time.

Clearly there were different Celtic Migrations to Britain and Ireland, hence why Q-Celic is older than P-Celtic, Bell Beaker Migrations, early form of Proto Celtic, then Halstadt Celtic, later still La Tene Celtic populations and languages washed onto these islands, creating different tribes and languages, I believe the later germanics, were more corded ware, which brought different subclades of r1b, and I that was already present and some r1a later.

Whatever we call these group names, we will not be able to please all of the people all of the time (What about how myheritage does it? (Ireland, Scotland, and Wales), and then England, and of course we have the massive overlap in between.
I suppose it would be interesting if some of these companies could add different Reports into their tool.

Calculation of Celtic to Anglo Saxon,
How much Viking I have
Any Roman?
etc etc
Might help people better answer their questions, I guess we all though have a little bit of everything if the truth be told. :beerchug:

Personally I think it'd be better if a test took only Irish individuals and used them to form a category called "British Isles" than doing what MyHeritage has done and has (what I think is arbitrarily) grouped Scottish, Irish, and Welsh into one category. It's all good to group the Scottish and Irish together, but the Welsh appear to be their own group from a genetic stand point, at least according to the PCA graphs we have seen so far. At first I thought it would have been good to see a DNA test with as many genetic groupings as possible, but now I'm not sure this is actually a good approach. I'd love to see a DNA test that creates categories only using the less admixed groups of Europe and models testers based on those: in terms of Western Europe, omit the English, French, Low Countries, Germans, Central Europeans, and be left with Scandinavia, Europe East, Ireland, Iberia, maybe Italy Greece.. you folks get the idea


'NW Insular European' or 'NW European' is what I'd prefer as a label for 'Irish' component in Ancestry.

While IMO this would be a step in the right direction I think they would have to remove the GB category to do this as for some of us it would show us as little to no NW European. Would be interesting to see a label change for "Europe West" into " Western Continental Europe" and Ireland into "Insular Western Europe" but unfortunately that might only happen in my dreams

mwauthy
09-07-2017, 04:18 PM
I agree with your idea of Great Britain being assigned for people who are a northwestern mixture. However, I think it primarily applies to people who have large mixtures of Irish and German. I myself am a mix of Belgian and French Canadian and only received 6% Great Britain. My father who is Belgian on paper only received 4% Great Britain. So I think it's the pull of the Irish or Scottish genes that give some mixed people the Great Britain scores.

sktibo
09-07-2017, 04:30 PM
I agree with your idea of Great Britain being assigned for people who are a northwestern mixture. However, I think it primarily applies to people who have large mixtures of Irish and German. I myself am a mix of Belgian and French Canadian and only received 6% Great Britain. My father who is Belgian on paper only received 4% Great Britain. So I think it's the pull of the Irish or Scottish genes that give some mixed people the Great Britain scores.

IIRC a lot of German people get high GB scores too, and French often get it as their largest component. I suspect Ancestry's GB and EW categories are actually incredibly similar. I'm curious as to what you and your father got for Ireland percentage

Dubhthach
09-07-2017, 04:46 PM
Well supposedly the ancestry British component is so close to 'Western European' component that it's hard to tell them apart. There was a beta version of ancestry component (which added extra components such as Sardinian and spilt Native american into South vs. North), in this beta they had merged the 'GB' component with western half of 'Western European' (at same time spilting out eastern part into a new 'Central European' component). I'm not sure what the story is with rolling this out. Given how rapidly their database has grown, I imagine having to rerun admixture calculations on 4million+ samples would be computationally expensive!

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 05:04 PM
Personally I think it'd be better if a test took only Irish individuals and used them to form a category called "British Isles" than doing what MyHeritage has done and has (what I think is arbitrarily) grouped Scottish, Irish, and Welsh into one category. It's all good to group the Scottish and Irish together, but the Welsh appear to be their own group from a genetic stand point, at least according to the PCA graphs we have seen so far. At first I thought it would have been good to see a DNA test with as many genetic groupings as possible, but now I'm not sure this is actually a good approach. I'd love to see a DNA test that creates categories only using the less admixed groups of Europe and models testers based on those: in terms of Western Europe, omit the English, French, Low Countries, Germans, Central Europeans, and be left with Scandinavia, Europe East, Ireland, Iberia, maybe Italy Greece.. you folks get the idea



While IMO this would be a step in the right direction I think they would have to remove the GB category to do this as for some of us it would show us as little to no NW European. Would be interesting to see a label change for "Europe West" into " Western Continental Europe" and Ireland into "Insular Western Europe" but unfortunately that might only happen in my dreams

So your view is that the English are a seperate Ethnic group?

Nqp15hhu
09-07-2017, 05:07 PM
Well supposedly the ancestry British component is so close to 'Western European' component that it's hard to tell them apart. There was a beta version of ancestry component (which added extra components such as Sardinian and spilt Native american into South vs. North), in this beta they had merged the 'GB' component with western half of 'Western European' (at same time spilting out eastern part into a new 'Central European' component). I'm not sure what the story is with rolling this out. Given how rapidly their database has grown, I imagine having to rerun admixture calculations on 4million+ samples would be computationally expensive!

So, if you score "Europe West", where would these ancestors come from?

mwauthy
09-07-2017, 05:53 PM
IIRC a lot of German people get high GB scores too, and French often get it as their largest component. I suspect Ancestry's GB and EW categories are actually incredibly similar. I'm curious as to what you and your father got for Ireland percentage

Father: Belgian

Europe West 66%
Iberian Peninsula 10%
Ireland 6%
Scandinavia 5%
Great Britain 4%
Italy/Greece 4%
Europe East 1%
Caucuses 4%


Mother: French Canadian

Iberian Peninsula 32%
Great Britain 23%
Scandinavia 17%
Italy/Greece 15%
Ireland 9%
Europe East 4%


Me: Mix

Europe West 47%
Iberian Peninsula 25%
Scandinavia 13%
Great Britain 6%
Ireland 3%
Italy/Greece 3%
Europe East 2%
European Jewish <1%

sktibo
09-07-2017, 06:37 PM
So your view is that the English are a seperate Ethnic group?

Hmmm based on what you've quoted I'm not sure how you arrived at that question? I think that might be separate from what I was talking about there

If you break things down enough you can get different "ethnic" groups out of any population I imagine. If you're looking at the British Isles, you have the groupings on a large scale broken into Orkney Islands, Wales, England, Scotland & Ireland (with Scotland being an intermediate between England and Ireland more or less) this graph displays the relationship of the Isles populations:

18604

The POBI (people of the British Isles) project broke it down further and you can easily find the results of that with a simple google search and there's tons of great discussion and info about it here on anthrogenica

It looks like the English are actually something of an intermediate population within the British isles; being in the middle of the Welsh, Irish, and Orcadians. The Scottish are interesting because some of them are basically Irish, some of them are more towards England, and there's also more of a Scandinavian drift going on.

Hope this helps

sktibo
09-07-2017, 07:04 PM
Father: Belgian

Europe West 66%
Iberian Peninsula 10%
Ireland 6%
Scandinavia 5%
Great Britain 4%
Italy/Greece 4%
Europe East 1%
Caucuses 4%


Mother: French Canadian

Iberian Peninsula 32%
Great Britain 23%
Scandinavia 17%
Italy/Greece 15%
Ireland 9%
Europe East 4%


Me: Mix

Europe West 47%
Iberian Peninsula 25%
Scandinavia 13%
Great Britain 6%
Ireland 3%
Italy/Greece 3%
Europe East 2%
European Jewish <1%

Thank you, very interesting results!
I'm especially intrigued by your mother's results, very interesting that Iberian beat out GB, but that GB is still the 2nd highest component.
What is most interesting is the complete lack of Europe West. We have English individuals that get little to no GB but get lots of EW, and French who don't get any EW but GB instead, I think that indicates a similarity in these categories

Amerijoe
09-07-2017, 08:42 PM
Maternal Aunt Ancestry Results
Ireland 67%
Great Britain 16%
Scandinavia 10%
Europe West 7%

Mine
Ireland 49%
Great Britain 47%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece < 1%
Europe West < 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia <1%

Daughter
Asia < 1%
Asia South <1%

Europe 98%
Ireland 47%
Great Britain 28%
Iberian Peninsula 7%
Europe West 5%
Europe East 5%
Finland/Northwest Russia 3%
Scandinavia 2%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece <1%

West Asia < 1%
Caucasus < 1%

Wife
Europe 99%
Europe East 41%
Great Britain 34%
Ireland 16%
Iberian Peninsula 4%
European Jewish 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%
Europe West < 1%

West Asia< 1%
Caucasus <1%

Looking for Europe West results within my family to add to the discussion, I can see why people go cuckoo trying to make sense of their DNA jigsaw puzzle.

My mAunt acting as Mum's proxy showing her @ 10% Scandinavian. My results indicate no Scandinavian. OK, washed out. Now I have to prove I'm a Scot without horns. Her Europe West @7% cast a shadow over my >1% result. What particular snp or snps, flip these results (British/EW) one way or the other? Are they that interchangeable?

My wife's results have <1% EW with 34% British. My daughter has 5% EW with 28% British. Here we have two individuals with EW each @<1%, whose offspring has 5% EW. My wife's 41% EE is reduce to 5% with my daughter's results. It seems clear to me ancestry testing still has some ways to go. Interesting my wife's Caucus shows up with my daughter. Here I have results from known family members and it still looks like a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Right now we're all driving a hand cranked car and you know what happened with that. On standby, waiting for a new car. :)

sktibo
09-07-2017, 08:50 PM
Maternal Aunt Ancestry Results
Ireland 67%
Great Britain 16%
Scandinavia 10%
Europe West 7%

Mine
Ireland 49%
Great Britain 47%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece < 1%
Europe West < 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia <1%

Daughter
Asia < 1%
Asia South <1%

Europe 98%
Ireland 47%
Great Britain 28%
Iberian Peninsula 7%
Europe West 5%
Europe East 5%
Finland/Northwest Russia 3%
Scandinavia 2%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece <1%

West Asia < 1%
Caucasus < 1%

Wife
Europe 99%
Europe East 41%
Great Britain 34%
Ireland 16%
Iberian Peninsula 4%
European Jewish 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%
Europe West < 1%

West Asia< 1%
Caucasus <1%

Looking for Europe West results within my family to add to the discussion, I can see why people go cuckoo trying to make sense of their DNA jigsaw puzzle.

My mAunt acting as Mum's proxy showing her @ 10% Scandinavian. My results indicate no Scandinavian. OK, washed out. Now I have to prove I'm a Scot without horns. Her Europe West @7% cast a shadow over my >1% result. What particular snp or snps, flip these results (British/EW) one way or the other? Are they that interchangeable?

My wife's results have <1% EW with 34% British. My daughter has 5% EW with 28% British. Here we have two individuals with EW each @<1%, whose offspring has 5% EW. My wife's 41% EE is reduce to 5% with my daughter's results. It seems clear to me ancestry testing still has some ways to go. Interesting my wife's Caucus shows up with my daughter. Here I have results from known family members and it still looks like a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Right now we're all driving a hand cranked car and you know what happened with that. On standby, waiting for a new car. :)

Very interesting analysis that highlights some of the shortcomings of this test I think, thank you for sharing this! I particularly enjoyed the <1 and <1 Europe West adding up to 5 Europe West somehow. My mother's results were just received by Ancestry so maybe we can start a parent child comparison thread for this company, and get our results along with mwauthys and any others in there.

DNA testing has been absolutely fascinating because it can do so much, and yet it still has so many shortcomings at the same time. Can't wait for mainstream full sequencing, I suppose in the meantime we'll see how far they can take imputation but I'm not going to get my hopes up on that one.

JerryS.
09-07-2017, 09:10 PM
Maternal Aunt Ancestry Results
Ireland 67%
Great Britain 16%
Scandinavia 10%
Europe West 7%

Mine
Ireland 49%
Great Britain 47%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece < 1%
Europe West < 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia <1%

Daughter
Asia < 1%
Asia South <1%

Europe 98%
Ireland 47%
Great Britain 28%
Iberian Peninsula 7%
Europe West 5%
Europe East 5%
Finland/Northwest Russia 3%
Scandinavia 2%
European Jewish 1%
Italy/Greece <1%

West Asia < 1%
Caucasus < 1%

Wife
Europe 99%
Europe East 41%
Great Britain 34%
Ireland 16%
Iberian Peninsula 4%
European Jewish 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%
Scandinavia < 1%
Europe West < 1%

West Asia< 1%
Caucasus <1%

Looking for Europe West results within my family to add to the discussion, I can see why people go cuckoo trying to make sense of their DNA jigsaw puzzle.

My mAunt acting as Mum's proxy showing her @ 10% Scandinavian. My results indicate no Scandinavian. OK, washed out. Now I have to prove I'm a Scot without horns. Her Europe West @7% cast a shadow over my >1% result. What particular snp or snps, flip these results (British/EW) one way or the other? Are they that interchangeable?

My wife's results have <1% EW with 34% British. My daughter has 5% EW with 28% British. Here we have two individuals with EW each @<1%, whose offspring has 5% EW. My wife's 41% EE is reduce to 5% with my daughter's results. It seems clear to me ancestry testing still has some ways to go. Interesting my wife's Caucus shows up with my daughter. Here I have results from known family members and it still looks like a bunch of mumbo jumbo. Right now we're all driving a hand cranked car and you know what happened with that. On standby, waiting for a new car. :)

how does all this look with the mixed mode (two population model) regular Oracle from GEDmatch Dodecad V3 and MDLP K23b?

Amerijoe
09-07-2017, 10:22 PM
Very interesting analysis that highlights some of the shortcomings of this test I think, thank you for sharing this! I particularly enjoyed the <1 and <1 Europe West adding up to 5 Europe West somehow. My mother's results were just received by Ancestry so maybe we can start a parent child comparison thread for this company, and get our results along with mwauthys and any others in there.

DNA testing has been absolutely fascinating because it can do so much, and yet it still has so many shortcomings at the same time. Can't wait for mainstream full sequencing, I suppose in the meantime we'll see how far they can take imputation but I'm not going to get my hopes up on that one.

Sktibo, I think your hypothesis on Brit/EW deserves a targeted analysis. It makes me smile adding 1 to 1 and getting 3 as illustrated by my daughters Finland/NW Russian @ 3%. Too bad finances don't work that way.

mwauthy
09-08-2017, 12:25 AM
Thank you, very interesting results!
I'm especially intrigued by your mother's results, very interesting that Iberian beat out GB, but that GB is still the 2nd highest component.
What is most interesting is the complete lack of Europe West. We have English individuals that get little to no GB but get lots of EW, and French who don't get any EW but GB instead, I think that indicates a similarity in these categories
It was pretty ironic that my mom received zero percent Europe West. Although, if I look at where French Canadians mostly came from it is not so strange. They primarily came from La Rochelle which is central west coast Atlantic seaboard. This will pull towards Iberian Basque, Roman Italy/Greece and Celtic Irish.

A large proportion also came from Normandy which had Viking settlers pulling towards Scandinavia. Plus, it was ruled by England for several centuries allowing gene flow back and forth. Plus, it's geographically very close to Ireland and England.

My father who is from Wallonia Belgium received 66% Europe West. I think this reflects the Frankish/Belgae part of Europe.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-08-2017, 09:23 AM
My paper record at Gen 6 (3 x great grandparents) is 97% South East English (predominantly East Anglian), and 3% Swiss.

AncestryDNA gives me 68% Great Britain

FT-DNA FF gives my 51% British

Living DNA gives me 70% Great Britain & Ireland

23andme initially gave me 32% British & Irish, increased to 38% with phasing and updates.

A Norfolk L-M20
09-08-2017, 11:17 AM
I'm fairly sure it's because Americans are often of mixed descent, and the GB category on Ancestry uses a fairly mixed reference population for its Great Britain category, the southeast English. It is interesting, and very confusing! The Irish and Western Scottish aside, Ancestry seems to be a very bad choice for people of British Isles descent a lot of the time, as we can see from the inconsistency in the results posted here

But for myself, much better than 23andme. What more impressed me though was that they strongly assigned me to the East Anglia & Essex Genetic Community, and to the Southern England Genetic Community.

It seems almost impossible for any autosomal DNA test for ancestry to make a reference that equally gets all British DNA.

It's not just for us though. These tests are equally confused by French, German, Dutch, and many other European populations.

mwauthy
09-10-2017, 06:14 PM
I don't think it's accurate to assign huge regions or ancient ethnic groups to describe ethnicity results. I don't think Great Britain or Anglo-Saxon properly describe that ethnicity designation.

These companies should simply show where these categories peak. Once you know where the reference population peaks then you can see how it dilutes as you spread farther away from it. So "Great Britain" should just really be labeled southeast England. Irish should be labeled southwest Ireland. Europe West should be labeled Wallonia Belgium. Iberian Peninsula should be labeled Basque.

sktibo
09-10-2017, 09:10 PM
For the record though sktibo said SE English are the "most" Anglo-Saxon that's incorrect. The title of "most Anglo-Saxon" belongs to northeastern Midlands and NE England.

The difference in continental range might be interesting for some though (lukaszM's maps):



Northumbrian. Seemingly more Anglo-Saxon




East Sussex. Seemingly more Frankish [/Norman]



Frankish versus Anglo-Saxon kingdom map 18664



Though it might not be too obvious SE British is wider/more Continental. Central France (Lyon box), for example, has a 0.87 versus the 0.74. Or Piemont (Turin box) of 0.75 versus 0.57.

Interesting... did I say that? I'm not sure that I did.
I do certainly think the SE English are more Anglo-Saxon than the Northumbrians are, not sure about most. It looks like Devon actually has a slightly higher percentage of Anglo and Saxon categories from the POBI, but less other admixture.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with an individual named Calas who would insist that the POBI wasn't a very reliable study and they knew best on these issues.
Gee... sure has been a while since "Calas" popped up and made an appearance, and they sure did like to post under a lot of different usernames....

I'm not really interested in having this discussion further.. the bottom line is, the current major study on the British Isles claims Northumbria isn't as Anglo Saxon influenced as the Southeast English are, and until something else of that scale comes out that says otherwise that's what we have to go on.

Now about the maps you've posted, Northumbria has a higher Scandinavian influence than southern England does, and that's more likely why you see that correlation there.

avalon
09-11-2017, 07:47 PM
Regarding Anglo-Saxon genetic input, probably the most reliable way of measuring this is to compare ancient Anglo-Saxon DNA with modern populations. We don't have much in the way of Anglo-Saxon genomes but we do have the one from that paper about Roman gladiators and the box plot here (b) shows that East Anglians are closest to the Anglo-Saxon. Historically, I think this would make sense.

The North of England (which is basically Northumbria in this study) on the box plot is further away from the Anglo-Saxon closer to Wales, again this would make sense historically as Celtic survival always looked to be higher in the north compared to south and east of England.

https://images.nature.com/w926/nature-assets/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f3.jpg

sktibo
09-12-2017, 02:49 AM
Regarding Anglo-Saxon genetic input, probably the most reliable way of measuring this is to compare ancient Anglo-Saxon DNA with modern populations. We don't have much in the way of Anglo-Saxon genomes but we do have the one from that paper about Roman gladiators and the box plot here (b) shows that East Anglians are closest to the Anglo-Saxon. Historically, I think this would make sense.

The North of England (which is basically Northumbria in this study) on the box plot is further away from the Anglo-Saxon closer to Wales, again this would make sense historically as Celtic survival always looked to be higher in the north compared to south and east of England.

https://images.nature.com/w926/nature-assets/ncomms/2016/160119/ncomms10326/images/ncomms10326-f3.jpg

Very interesting Avalon, thank you for sharing that. I didn't know there were other studies that looked at this topic in such detail. Is East Midlands referring to Lincolnshire area?

Judith
09-12-2017, 07:56 AM
Ancestry is pretty poor on this.
I am 50% west Europe, 18% Irish and only 13% Great Britain plus Scandinavia 11%, Iberia 4%, Finnish 3%, North Africa 1%
So in the past 6000 years probably correct. Certainly not recent which makes them an improvement over 23&me who had German and Finnish inputs in the 1800s

avalon
09-12-2017, 02:36 PM
Very interesting Avalon, thank you for sharing that. I didn't know there were other studies that looked at this topic in such detail. Is East Midlands referring to Lincolnshire area?

Well the paper was mainly about Roman York but they did have the one Anglo-Saxon genome so it's a start.

I would say the East Midlands region might refer to Lincolnshire but also Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire. I don't know precisely where the modern data used this study comes from although I know it is not POBI.

18704

Judith
09-12-2017, 10:08 PM
Ancestry is pretty poor on this.
I am 50% west Europe, 18% Irish and only 13% Great Britain plus Scandinavia 11%, Iberia 4%, Finnish 3%, North Africa 1%
So in the past 6000 years probably correct.s

BUT certainly not in line with the Ancestry work posted by Don Felipe in post 7 of this thread http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11572-AncestryDNA-results-from-across-Europe which would indicate that I should be 41% to 37% Great Britain not their 13% nor the accurate 100%!
So they have an algorithm problem or a sample base one.
Unsurprisingly my close confirmed matches have similar West Europe or Finnish ethnicity too.

Teutorigos
09-12-2017, 10:16 PM
This is my opinion: Ancestry.com poorly chose a very Anglo-Saxon influenced part of England to be the 'Great Britain' reference population, which makes the less Anglo-Saxon parts of England come up more Irish, as well as the Scottish and Welsh scoring higher Ireland. The Irish component is likely the more indigenous one in the British isles, and it would have been more meaningful to have "Great Britain" be centered on a more indigenous part of the UK, which would reduce the amount of Irish that the British are scoring.

I agree that is why I have been using the British category of AncestryDNA as synonymous with Anglo-Saxon for as long as I can remember. I score 37% British/Anglo-Saxon on ancestryDNA and I have Irish, English, West German(ic) (Alsace-Lorraine) and Scottish ancestry most likely. It seems the west German(ic) just went into the Norman/Saxon DNA of the British category to a significant degree or for the most part. I dunno why the west German(ic) from Alsace-Lorraine is not showing up as west European.

jonathanmcg1990
09-15-2017, 02:48 PM
Interesting... did I say that? I'm not sure that I did.
I do certainly think the SE English are more Anglo-Saxon than the Northumbrians are, not sure about most. It looks like Devon actually has a slightly higher percentage of Anglo and Saxon categories from the POBI, but less other admixture.

This reminds me of a conversation I had with an individual named Calas who would insist that the POBI wasn't a very reliable study and they knew best on these issues.
Gee... sure has been a while since "Calas" popped up and made an appearance, and they sure did like to post under a lot of different usernames....

I'm not really interested in having this discussion further.. the bottom line is, the current major study on the British Isles claims Northumbria isn't as Anglo Saxon influenced as the Southeast English are, and until something else of that scale comes out that says otherwise that's what we have to go on.

Now about the maps you've posted, Northumbria has a higher Scandinavian influence than southern England does, and that's more likely why you see that correlation there.

Would this explain your ridiculously high Northumbria percentage over on LivingDNA.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

jonathanmcg1990
09-15-2017, 03:01 PM
What I'm saying is that if you pick a population that is mixed, then other people which are mixed are going to match with that population. We know that mixed people often get a lot of Great Britain, and that someone with all ancestry from Kent got 94% Great Britain, indicating that SE England is a place where lots of samples are from for the GB category. We also know that the southeast English are a genetically mixed population. So, mixed people end up matching with a mixed population; and to clarify that when I say mixed here I'm referring to mixed NW European people.

As you know all my Ancestry comes from Ulster half Ulster Scot, Half Ulster Irish and my Great Britain percentage is 22%, 0% Europe West, 76% Ireland and 1% Scandinavian and a bizarre 1% European Jewish.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Nqp15hhu
09-15-2017, 04:22 PM
I've picked up the European Jewish, but the 3% Eastern European was even more shocking.

spruithean
09-15-2017, 04:36 PM
As you know all my Ancestry comes from Ulster half Ulster Scot, Half Ulster Irish and my Great Britain percentage is 22%, 0% Europe West, 76% Ireland and 1% Scandinavian and a bizarre 1% European Jewish.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

I have a similar paternal ancestry a lot of Ulster-Scots, Irish and then Scottish and English, with the random French & German.

Interestingly we both have some form of I-Z140 Y-DNA.

Sktibo, Northumbria seems to have a fairly interesting connection to the Celts from what I've read. It seems a Germanic elite began to rule Bryneich (Bernicia) in the north and the Celtic people simply became "anglicized". Another Celtic kingdom of Elmet held on for a while further south near Deira. There also seems to be remains of people from Western Scotland/Northern Ireland in early graves at the Anglian fort of Bamburgh.

I'll see if I can dig up some good reads for Northumbria and its Anglo-British connections.

sktibo
09-15-2017, 04:54 PM
Would this explain your ridiculously high Northumbria percentage over on LivingDNA.

Kind Regards

Jonathan McGuinness

Well it isn't consistent, and on the K36 map tool I don't match Northeastern England. We recently learned a lot about the shortcomings of the new imputation method chips used by Living DNA and I think the most likely explanation is that imputation isn't a reliable method.. at least not for somebody as mixed as I am

LarryMc
12-31-2017, 03:55 AM
Same here...American with 57% GB

Mike McG
12-31-2017, 09:58 PM
My ancestry is 50% Irish Catholic (Co. Tipperary) and 50% Southern English Protestant (Middlesex/London). My AncestryDNA Genetic Communities are Munster/Southern Ireland and Southern England. Here are my AncestryDNA results which appear to show a high Europe West contribution from my English mother.

Ethnicity Estimate

53% Ireland/Scotland/Wales
Munster, Ireland - From your regions: Great Britain, Ireland/Scotland/Wales
34% Europe West
9% Great Britain
Southern England - From your regions: Great Britain, Ireland/Scotland/Wales, Europe West

Low Confidence Regions

3% Europe East
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
<1% Iberian Peninsula

Asuming the 50% of my DNA from my father was 48% I/S/W and 2% EW (or 96% I/S/W & 4% EW on a 100% of his DNA basis), the the contribution from my mother on a 100% basis for her would be:

10% Ireland/Scotland/Wales
64% Europe West
18% Great Britain
6% Europe East
2% Finland/Northwest Russia

In my mother's case, I expect the ~60% EW may represent some French and Danish input, but would predominately represent the Anglo-Saxon portion of her heritage.

My ancestry estimates from FTDNA and 23&Me are posted at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10199-My-origins-2-0-is-released&p=224798&viewfull=1#post224798 Message #297

Mike

Anglo-Celtic
01-01-2018, 12:12 AM
My ancestry is 50% Irish Catholic (Co. Tipperary) and 50% Southern English Protestant (Middlesex/London). My AncestryDNA Genetic Communities are Munster/Southern Ireland and Southern England. Here are my AncestryDNA results which appear to show a high Europe West contribution from my English mother.

Ethnicity Estimate

53% Ireland/Scotland/Wales
Munster, Ireland - From your regions: Great Britain, Ireland/Scotland/Wales
34% Europe West
9% Great Britain
Southern England - From your regions: Great Britain, Ireland/Scotland/Wales, Europe West

Low Confidence Regions

3% Europe East
1% Finland/Northwest Russia
<1% Iberian Peninsula

Asuming the 50% of my DNA from my father was 48% I/S/W and 2% EW (or 96% I/S/W & 4% EW on a 100% of his DNA basis), the the contribution from my mother on a 100% basis for her would be:

10% Ireland/Scotland/Wales
64% Europe West
18% Great Britain
6% Europe East
2% Finland/Northwest Russia

In my mother's case, I expect the ~60% EW may represent some French and Danish input, but would predominately represent the Anglo-Saxon portion of her heritage.

My ancestry estimates from FTDNA and 23&Me are posted at https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10199-My-origins-2-0-is-released&p=224798&viewfull=1#post224798 Message #297

Mike

Maybe you should take my user name. You really are Anglo-Celtic! That's quite a mix, eastern English and western Irish. It's almost like your parents are in a mixed marriage (kidding).

raschau
01-01-2018, 11:56 PM
I suspect Sikeliot is right on the money. I scored a whopping 64% British on my test and a mere 4% Western European; Ancestry's algorithms, whatever they may be, clearly bundled my English and German heritage together.

Nqp15hhu
01-02-2018, 08:15 AM
Is there any way of determining what country ones Western European ancestry originated in?

Vestri
01-02-2018, 10:22 AM
Here's my AncestryDNA results,

47% Europe West
29% Great Britain
12% Scandinavian
9% Ireand/Scotland/Wales

Low Confidence Regions
2% Europe East
<1 Asia South

01-02-2018, 12:14 PM
Here's my AncestryDNA results,

47% Europe West
29% Great Britain
12% Scandinavian
9% Ireand/Scotland/Wales

Low Confidence Regions
2% Europe East
<1 Asia South

Hi Vestri,
Did they split the Ireland category into "Ireland/Scotland/Wales"?

Clarke
01-02-2018, 01:34 PM
Not really split more like renamed, mine changed from 36% Irish, to 36% Ireland/Scotland/Wales.

01-02-2018, 01:57 PM
Not really split more like renamed, mine changed from 36% Irish, to 36% Ireland/Scotland/Wales.

hi Clark, Thanks for the clarification, interesting, its the same as MyHeritage define this .

msmarjoribanks
01-02-2018, 10:59 PM
I suspect Sikeliot is right on the money. I scored a whopping 64% British on my test and a mere 4% Western European; Ancestry's algorithms, whatever they may be, clearly bundled my English and German heritage together.

Interesting. For me it's the opposite. FTDNA gives me 83% British Isles, and MyHeritage (using the Ancestry results, but it's similar with the FTDNA results) gives me about 55% English and 17% Irish/Scottish/Welsh, but Ancestry gives me only 4% Great Britain. The Scottish/Irish/Welsh is similar (19%), but Ancestry gives me 28% Scandinavian (vs. 0% with FTDNA and 9% with MyHeritage) and then groups most of the rest into 42% West Europe.

The MyHeritage is pretty close to the paper trail in general (except Irish/Scottish/Welsh is a bit low), and my actual Scandinavian is probably about 12.5% (one great-grandmother was Swedish), so it seems that the Scandinavian is being added to the British Isles for the FTDNA results, and the English is getting split into the Scandinavian and West Europe for the Ancestry.

I wonder why it does that for my results and others are getting German grouped into English on the same test.

(My paper trail says 50% or more English -- more on paper, but some is likely Welsh or Scottish -- and the non English, non Celtic, non Swedish bit is a mix of German, Dutch, and French.)

Goodman
01-02-2018, 11:52 PM
Can anybody explain the difference in origins between the two categories Great Britain and Irish (now Wales, Scotland and Ireland)? I know this is one of the biggest questions of the moment and I wish I had the time to research this more.

Dubhthach
01-04-2018, 11:53 AM
Can anybody explain the difference in origins between the two categories Great Britain and Irish (now Wales, Scotland and Ireland)? I know this is one of the biggest questions of the moment and I wish I had the time to research this more.

Well the 'Great Britain' cluster appears to be more contiental shifted, if anything some of their blog posts have said it's difficult to differenate between Western European and GB, one of their beta calculators actually merged GB with Western European (just part covering France).

In which case GB might represent at moment a mix of Gallo-Brythonic and some Contiental Germanic mix, which would make sense as the English can be modelled as an admixed population between Insular Celtic speakers and Continental Germanic speakers.

As Ireland remained isolated from Britain in period post 800BC (leaving aside renewed contacts start in Iron age) to really the 12/13th century AD (with arrival of Cambro-Norman's) it shouldn't be too surprising that the Irish at least cluster seperate. The relabeling is probably reflective that this cluster basically peaks in population which are (or where in the last 300 years) speakers of Insular Celtic languages. Remember after all, English was a minority language in Ireland until 1800, the fact that Ireland is a majority english speaking country today is due to language shift as oppose to migration.

Anglo-Celtic
01-08-2018, 12:03 AM
In which case GB might represent at moment a mix of Gallo-Brythonic and some Contiental Germanic mix, which would make sense as the English can be modelled as an admixed population between Insular Celtic speakers and Continental Germanic speakers.


Hence the east-west cline within England, itself. It would be interesting to compare the results of someone from SE England and someone from NW England. Their lineage, in each area, would go back for centuries, and there would be no contemporary immigrant influence. My guess is that the SE English person would be much more likely to get "British" while the NW English person would be much more likely to get "Irish", and in other news: water is wet. :)

rms2
01-08-2018, 01:09 AM
I have not read all the posts in this thread.

Ancestry gives me the following:

56% Great Britain
26% Ireland, Scotland and Wales
8% Scandinavia

FTDNA gives me:

40% British Isles
30% Scandinavia
25% Western and Central Europe
4% Eastern Europe

My Heritage says:

99.2% English
0.8% Baltic

Gencove says:

94% Northern and Central European
3% Northeast European
2% Eastern Mediterranean
1% Southwest European

Mike McG
01-08-2018, 01:57 AM
This may have already been posted on this site, but here is a PCA plot of AncestryDNA's European West taken from this paper: https://www.ancestry.com/dna/resource/whitePaper/AncestryDNA-Ethnicity-White-Paper.pdf
20632
20631

Mike

A Norfolk L-M20
01-08-2018, 12:42 PM
Here is my latest documented origins fan chart - my direct ancestry pedigree:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=20646&d=1515413680

Yet my first geo-ethnic DNA test, 23andme, gave me only 32% "British & Irish". I wasn't insulted, I'd love to have the ancestry that they suggested. I just never believed it was true. On their Timeline, it even claims that I had a French or German grandparent. That would have been nice, but I'm afraid that my grandparents, neither my great grandparents or great great grandparents were French or German. I do have one Swiss 3rd great grandparent - 3% of my DNA on average, but unlikely to have provided the 28% French & German suggested by 23andme.

The best resource that genetic genealogy offers is DNA relative matching. However, many North Americans not only appear to share some ancestry from at least some of the early small Colonial gene pools (sort of a genetic drift factor?), but more significant, have DNA tested far more intensively than modern Europeans have. On Ancestry.co.uk for example, we tend to get far, far fewer close cousins pop up than the average USA tester. I'm very pleased that my "shared ancestor hints" are up to 12 - but I know that it very low compared with the Ancestry match results for USA testers. On 23andme, in two years, I've not yet found ONE DNA match that has a family tree sharing a MRCA with me. None-the-less, I'm trying to use DNA matching to verify my documented ancestry:

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4683/25440296148_6906700e11_z.jpg

Looks as though my grandparents are also biological. I've not had any matches yet with German or French genetic genealogists - some USA testers with German or French surnames, but of course they are their surname lines alone, picked up in the melting pot. I'm always looking for Swiss matches for that 3rd great grandfather - DNA could really help, as his surname was anglicised to Shawers or Sohores. I have no idea of his canton - a poor, illiterate, Swiss lace weaver in the East End of London.

Back on subject - no geo-ethnic test based on analysis of autosomal DNA reference panels has yet come close to matching my documentary ancestry. I'm aware that genetic ancestry can drift slowly from actual ancestry, but the main issues I suspect are:

Poor quality reference panels
Poorly thought out limits to references.
References are modern populations
We Europeans are all too closely related.
Most Europeans descend from the same foundation populations - just slightly different percentages
Geo-ethnic DNA tests really fall flat on medieval mixed populations - in other words, the English, French, German, etc
Europe is an ancient melting pot. Genes swirl around.


EDIT, as this is posted in the AncestryDNA category, I'll post my results there:

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19681&d=1510324108

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=19680&d=1510324068

Researcher212
01-11-2018, 05:26 PM
My paternal line is definitely Germanic with some Alsatian and my maternal side is Hungarian. Both sides have no known British Ancestry from both sides of my family, yet I score 29% Great Britain on Ancestry.com with only 4% western Europe? But I do get 3% Scandinavian. I read somewhere but not sure of its accuracy that there are few Germans testing their DNA so Ancestry shows said population as GB, or Scandinavian, instead of Europe West? Is this true?

Researcher212
01-11-2018, 05:33 PM
Ancestry results:
Europe East 41%
Great Britain 29%
Iberian Peninsula 7%
Europe South 7%
Low Confidence Regions

Europe West 4%
European Jewish 3%
Scandinavia 3%
Ireland/Scotland/Wales 2%
Asia South 2%
Caucasus 1%
Finland/Northwest Russia < 1%


Also, this is the only test that Ireland shows up at all; however Scandinavian is the lowest score out of all the commercial tests, generally receive around 9% and as high as 35% on Heritage for the latter. Finally, the Europan Jewish is the highest compared to other commercial tests which the average tend to show me having about 1-2%.

JerryS.
01-11-2018, 05:57 PM
My paternal line is definitely Germanic with some Alsatian and my maternal side is Hungarian. Both sides have no known British Ancestry from both sides of my family, yet I score 29% Great Britain on Ancestry.com with only 4% western Europe? But I do get 3% Scandinavian. I read somewhere but not sure of its accuracy that there are few Germans testing their DNA so Ancestry shows said population as GB, or Scandinavian, instead of Europe West? Is this true?

that could be very true. Germany doesn't have the freedoms we do in America.

Robert1
01-11-2018, 11:00 PM
For the British Isles/UK I get very high percentages from the major testing sites:

Ancestry.com - 81%
23andMe - 86.3%
FTDNA V1/V2 - 80%/57%
MyHeritage - ~90%
Living DNA - 98.7%

The remainders tend to be NW Europe and Scandinavia.
About 63% of my UK heritage is Scot/Irish/Welsh plus most of my English is west and north - which seems to be why I get these high percentages.

aafusc2988
09-23-2020, 03:11 PM
Why are you necroing such old topics?