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Jon
09-06-2017, 06:23 PM
Hi All,

After a recent trip to Scotland to visit the old Pictish sites (!), and reading a bunch of stuff (including Tim Clarkson's excellent 'The Picts'), I've been getting more excited about the possible ancient lines which we might have represented in our HG.

In the spirit of (fun) speculation, I was wondering if we could start a thread where we discuss which possible known historical lines could be in L513, given the new results coming in and the better picture that is emerging, combined with historical background info.

For my tuppence worth, and since my line is A7/L193 within L513, here goes:

Scottish lines in L193 seem to be pretty well-spread, but with hotspots in the SW, Perthshire and the western coastal areas. Not as specific to Pictland as other HG's, but no clear connection to Ireland, for example, like with M222.

My best guess for this line so far is a Scotto/Pictish line from the west, which spread east. Earlier clades like S5668 seem to be further west, in Ireland and western Scotland, which would trace the line east into the later areas of L193 expansion. So perhaps this was found among the Scottish 'Cenela' of Dalriada.

I'm putting my neck out, hopefully not putting my foot in my mouth, and looking forward to any other ideas...!

Jon

Muireagain
09-07-2017, 05:34 PM
I personal of the current belief that Scottish FGC13499 branch of L513 came from the Inner Hebrides and before that Ireland, i.e., the Airgiallan allies of Dal Riada.

Working backward from A8 branch. The A8 branch is associated with families from Ayrshire:
1. Clan Kennedys
2. Clan Little.

Looking at A3, which is older then A8 we have three lines under it:
1. Clan Kennedys and Clan Little from Ayrshire
2. Clan Vans from Wigtownshire
3. Clan Glendinning from Dumfriesshire

Ayrshire, Wigtownshire and Dumfriesshire were lands identified with those of the Gall-Goídil.

Right now if you are A3 it looks like you trace from ancestors through Ayrshire and if you are A8 you probably will trace your ancestors through the lands of the Gall Gaidheil. (Both have no recent yDNA relationship with Clan MacKenzies.)

Now for the parent of A3, i.e. L193, we have four separate line (all lines have to originate from one original location/person):
1. The A8 population from the lands of the Gall Gaidheil
2. Clan MacLean from the Isle of Mull
3. Clan Drummonds from the parish of Drymen within Lennox
4. Clan Elliots from Roxburghshire

Have move from young to old: A3 is specific to Ayrshire, A8 to the lands of the Gall Gaidheil, and L193 which is spread from Mull to Loch Lomond to Galloway and to the Borders.

Where did the L193 population come from? The parent to L193 is FGC13499, which we have two lines:
1. The L193 population spread from Mull to Loch Lomond to Galloway and to the Borders
2. Clan MacKenzies from lands of Wester Ross (formerly known as North Argyll) within the Lordship of the Isles.

Where do these two branches intersect? Simple, within the lands associated with Lordship of the Isle or more precisely within the area of the Inner Hebrides.

So hence the simplest explanation of the FGC13499 line is that it starts in the Inner Hebrides, with one branch (L193) successfully spreading south into what became southern Scotland.

Looking at S5668 branch of FGC13499:
1. Clan Mackenzie and the Clans that are L193+, possible originating from the Inner Hebrides.
2. Maguires of Fermangh, a family associated with Airgialla

Given Scottish history I believe the Scottish S5668+ families are Airgiallan allies of Dal Riada..., based on today's evidence.

Bernard.

Jon
09-07-2017, 06:39 PM
Thanks for your thoughts Bernard. So according to your model, the Airgialla would have been present in Scotland as well as in Ireland, as per Ewan Campbell's hypothesis of an indigenous Gaelic population. Would these Scots have been members of the ruling Cenela of Dalriada, or in your theory, simply 'allies' of them?

Some have also suggested Pictish origins for L193, but I agree, the west->east direction looks fairly convincing for the lines under S5668.

Anyone have any other thoughts on this, or alternatives?

Muireagain
09-07-2017, 10:47 PM
I want to add these three reference to Airgiallan forces in Scotland:

7th century Senchus Fer nAlban “the armed muster of the Cinel Loarn was 700 men ; but it is of the Airgialla that the seventh hundred is.”

U727.3 The encounter of Irros Foichnae between Selbach and the 'family' of Echaid, grandson of Domnall, in which some of the Airgialla fell.

M835.15 Gofraidh, son of Fearghus, chief of Oirghialla, went to Alba, to strengthen the Dal Riada, at the request of Cinaeth, son of Ailpin.

Jon
09-08-2017, 06:05 AM
Great, thanks for the references Bernard. Just to play devil's advocate: but if the Airgialla were a predominantly Irish tribe (I'm not sure?); and L193 was carried by them, would we not see more L193 in modern Ireland?

Robert1
09-08-2017, 03:06 PM
Jon, excellent topic for a thread!

While I can't hazard a guess for S5668 and farther back my deep haplogroup leads back to MacIvers of Skye then the Isle of Lewis around 1600 AD. Hopefully this may be of use as your discussion continues...

L513/DF1 > S5668 > A7 > Z21253 > S7834 > S7828 > BY11203 > BY11186 (about 320-550 years old)

Jon
09-08-2017, 08:00 PM
Thanks for your input Robert! Great to hear from another S5668 guy with Hebridean ancestry :)

I'm keen to get as much input on this topic as possible. I've seen similar threads for other HG's, so I wanted to see what we could come up with here, maybe even including actual historical lines, although I accept that at this stage that involves a lot of speculation. As I see it, the possible Scottish lines in A7/L193 could include some or other of:

- Scotti (west of Scotland)
- Picts (central, northern, eastern areas)
- Britons (particularly the Clyde region)
- Gall Gaidheal (Gaelic speaking groups in the Hebrides)
- Airgialla (surnames in Ireland under S5668 fall into this grouping, and see Bernard's posts above)

I almost hesitate to go any further, but I've been thinking about possible candidates for actual genealogical lines who could fit the bill for us, for example the line of the MacAlpin or the Cenel nGabrain, who came from the west and moved east. But I know there are competing HG's who claim Dalriadan ancestry, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone by being presumptuous. I just want to stimulate debate on the issue, and I'm glad you appreciate it! Looking forward to more input...

Muireagain
09-09-2017, 01:27 AM
The Britons of Strathclyde are likely to be DF63, if is accepted that the MacFarlanes of Lenox are their descendants.
I personally believe, given the results st hand that the Dal Riada are L1065+.

Jon
09-09-2017, 08:37 PM
Since you mentioned the Airgialla, how about the Scottish link? I always thought the Airgialla were principally found in Ireland. But it seems that from your references there were Airgialla in amongst the Dalriadan tribes in Scotland as well. Can you or anyone else say any more on that?

castle3
09-10-2017, 08:28 AM
Thanks for your input Robert! Great to hear from another S5668 guy with Hebridean ancestry :)

I'm keen to get as much input on this topic as possible. I've seen similar threads for other HG's, so I wanted to see what we could come up with here, maybe even including actual historical lines, although I accept that at this stage that involves a lot of speculation. As I see it, the possible Scottish lines in A7/L193 could include some or other of:

- Scotti (west of Scotland)
- Picts (central, northern, eastern areas)
- Britons (particularly the Clyde region)
- Gall Gaidheal (Gaelic speaking groups in the Hebrides)
- Airgialla (surnames in Ireland under S5668 fall into this grouping, and see Bernard's posts above)

I almost hesitate to go any further, but I've been thinking about possible candidates for actual genealogical lines who could fit the bill for us, for example the line of the MacAlpin or the Cenel nGabrain, who came from the west and moved east. But I know there are competing HG's who claim Dalriadan ancestry, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone by being presumptuous. I just want to stimulate debate on the issue, and I'm glad you appreciate it! Looking forward to more input...

I recall that Wolfe, Fraser & others suggested that the Cruithni may have been the tribe that Ptolemy named 'Epidii', who possibly migrated from Kintyre to Ireland. The Cruithne king Fiachne bore an ethnonym denoting 'Britons'. In all these discussions it's worth remembering that Campbell, & many others, believe movement was from Argyll to Ulster & not vice-versa. If one believes the revisionists' version of events then the situation becomes a little clearer. L513 might fit neatly into that equation.

Jon
09-11-2017, 02:17 PM
I recall that Wolfe, Fraser & others suggested that the Cruithni may have been the tribe that Ptolemy named 'Epidii', who possibly migrated from Kintyre to Ireland. The Cruithne king Fiachne bore an ethnonym denoting 'Britons'. In all these discussions it's worth remembering that Campbell, & many others, believe movement was from Argyll to Ulster & not vice-versa. If one believes the revisionists' version of events then the situation becomes a little clearer. L513 might fit neatly into that equation.

How do the Cruithne fit into the Dalriada/pictish picture? I know that in Irish, the name 'Cruithin' was also used to denote Scottish Picts, leading some to use the term 'Irish Picts'. On the other hand, some claim no connection between the two groups. Would this Cruithin/L513 hypothesis suggest that the Cruithni were part of Dalriada?

Dubhthach
09-11-2017, 02:56 PM
The term Cruithne (Cruithin in Old Irish) is cognate of the Proto-Brythonic word *Pritani which is the source word for Britanni in Latin. It derives from Proto-Goidelic *Qritani

Note the Q -> P shift in Brythonic. In Old Irish the /q/ phoneme collapse into a /k/ which is always written as a C in Irish (eg. Irish always uses a hard C sound). As a result at the most basal level the word basically means 'British' or someone from Britain. *Pritani in Proto-Brythonic is also the source word for Prydain (Britain in Welsh) and Prydyn for 'Picts'

By the time Ireland comes out of gloom of pre-history in the 5th/6th century any groups termed 'Cruithin' in medieval genealogies most certainly would have spoken Archaic Irish/Old Irish. If anything the notion of their difference might just represent historic memory of the renewed contacts we see from Northern Britain into the Northern half of Ireland post 200BC. A thousand years later of course we would see similiar situation with Gaelicised Cambro-Norman's who even though they dressed like the Irish, spoke Irish and even rode their horses like the Irish (without Stirrups) were still regarded as 'Gall' because of their patrilineal descent.

TM Charles Edwards talks about the Dál nAraidi, the main Cruithin dynastical kindred in what was left of Ulster (eg. Antrim and Down) as basically expanding aggressively against Dál Riata before basically conquering Irish Dál Riata. Of course they would then vie for the rulership of the overkingdom of Ulaid (Ulster) with the actual Ulstermen (Dál Fiatach)

https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&lpg=PP1&dq=early%20christian%20ireland&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false

(preview missing pages 55 and 56)

Jon
09-11-2017, 03:57 PM
The term Cruithne (Cruithin in Old Irish) is cognate of the Proto-Brythonic word *Pritani which is the source word for Britanni in Latin. It derives from Proto-Goidelic *Qritani

Note the Q -> P shift in Brythonic. In Old Irish the /q/ phoneme collapse into a /k/ which is always written as a C in Irish (eg. Irish always uses a hard C sound). As a result at the most basal level the word basically means 'British' or someone from Britain. *Pritani in Proto-Brythonic is also the source word for Prydain (Britain in Welsh) and Prydyn for 'Picts'

By the time Ireland comes out of gloom of pre-history in the 5th/6th century any groups termed 'Cruithin' in medieval genealogies most certainly would have spoken Archaic Irish/Old Irish. If anything the notion of their difference might just represent historic memory of the renewed contacts we see from Northern Britain into the Northern half of Ireland post 200BC. A thousand years later of course we would see similiar situation with Gaelicised Cambro-Norman's who even though they dressed like the Irish, spoke Irish and even rode their horses like the Irish (without Stirrups) were still regarded as 'Gall' because of their patrilineal descent.

TM Charles Edwards talks about the Dál nAraidi, the main Cruithin dynastical kindred in what was left of Ulster (eg. Antrim and Down) as basically expanding aggressively against Dál Riata before basically conquering Irish Dál Riata. Of course they would then vie for the rulership of the overkingdom of Ulaid (Ulster) with the actual Ulstermen (Dál Fiatach)

https://books.google.ie/books?id=g6yq2sKLlFkC&lpg=PP1&dq=early%20christian%20ireland&pg=PA54#v=onepage&q&f=false

(preview missing pages 55 and 56)

Thanks for this! Any idea of how any of this might fit into the L513 picture? Or do you think L513 in Ireland/Scotland might better fit another scenario?

Dubhthach
09-11-2017, 04:18 PM
I don't think it can tell us much about L513 given the subsequent history of Antrim and Down. It's very hard to sift any results that might trace to lines that predate John de Courcey's conquest of the kingdom of Ulaidh in 1177. For example surnames like Magennis/McGuinness might actually be Haplogroup I2 and not R1b etc.

Jon
09-11-2017, 05:43 PM
I don't think it can tell us much about L513 given the subsequent history of Antrim and Down. It's very hard to sift any results that might trace to lines that predate John de Courcey's conquest of the kingdom of Ulaidh in 1177. For example surnames like Magennis/McGuinness might actually be Haplogroup I2 and not R1b etc.

I see. From what I gather so far, though, L513 seems to be older in Ireland and Scotland than more recent historical developments. E.g. the bunch down in Munster?

castle3
09-12-2017, 07:57 AM
Fraser, in 'From Caledonia to Pictland Scotland to 795' p148/9,says:
The Cruithni may have been British incomers from various parts of the west of outer Brigantia, Argyll and the Hebrides. Later Gaelic ethnographers distinguished Dal Riata from the Cruithni in racial terms. If we set such pseudo-history aside, we are confronted by two neighbouring Early Historic peoples, one based largely in Britain with a small presence in Antrim, and the other based in Ireland but known there as 'Britons'. Together they form the kind of link between Argyll and north-east Ireland that scholars require to explain Gaelic in Argyll.'

It needs highlighting that the Druim Alban mountain range isolated the people of Argyll from their north-east neighbours, hence the containing of the Pictish language, & the promotion of Gaelic.

He goes on to promote the British incursions into Ireland theory, as opposed to the old Antrim to Argyll origin myth model. I recall he also mentioned that sadly, for political reasons, the revisionist view isn't easy to promote in large parts of Ireland.

L513 may also be due to Kingdom of Strathclyde Brythonic Celts moving to Ireland, along with the more recent Plantation movements.

I tend to keep an open mind re all this but, on balance, I favour the revisionist view.

Jon
09-12-2017, 08:20 AM
Fraser, in 'From Caledonia to Pictland Scotland to 795' p148/9,says:
The Cruithni may have been British incomers from various parts of the west of outer Brigantia, Argyll and the Hebrides. Later Gaelic ethnographers distinguished Dal Riata from the Cruithni in racial terms. If we set such pseudo-history aside, we are confronted by two neighbouring Early Historic peoples, one based largely in Britain with a small presence in Antrim, and the other based in Ireland but known there as 'Britons'. Together they form the kind of link between Argyll and north-east Ireland that scholars require to explain Gaelic in Argyll.'

It needs highlighting that the Druim Alban mountain range isolated the people of Argyll from their north-east neighbours, hence the containing of the Pictish language, & the promotion of Gaelic.

He goes on to promote the British incursions into Ireland theory, as opposed to the old Antrim to Argyll origin myth model. I recall he also mentioned that sadly, for political reasons, the revisionist view isn't easy to promote in large parts of Ireland.

L513 may also be due to Kingdom of Strathclyde Brythonic Celts moving to Ireland, along with the more recent Plantation movements.

I tend to keep an open mind re all this but, on balance, I favour the revisionist view.

Thanks for the input. I've read the Fraser and Woolf volumes, and find it pretty convincing I must say. If one simply looks at geography, a shared community separated by a mere 12 miles of sea is much more convincing than a wholesale invasion in 500AD or so. And these communities would have had easier contact than across the mountains of the central Highlands. So I guess L513 communities would or could have been in both P-Celtic populations and Q-Celtic, if we accept that Gaelic will have been spoken in Scotland from earlier than the 'invasion date' of C. 500AD...

castle3
09-12-2017, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the input. I've read the Fraser and Woolf volumes, and find it pretty convincing I must say. If one simply looks at geography, a shared community separated by a mere 12 miles of sea is much more convincing than a wholesale invasion in 500AD or so. And these communities would have had easier contact than across the mountains of the central Highlands. So I guess L513 communities would or could have been in both P-Celtic populations and Q-Celtic, if we accept that Gaelic will have been spoken in Scotland from earlier than the 'invasion date' of C. 500AD...

True, Jon. It's sad that so many gullible people latch onto nonsense such as the Scythian theory etc. Don't know if you've read Clarkson & McHardy? They're both interesting to read re Argyll etc. On a slightly different tack: I've always had great respect for Henri Hubert, too.

Dubhthach
09-12-2017, 09:48 AM
I imagine what we are seeing are contact networks, that results in development of a dialect chain stretching from Munster into Argyll. People have to remember that even though Welsh (eg. Modern Brythonic) and Irish (modern Goidelic) are quite far apart, this is due to divergence over the last 2000-2500 years. (For an english speaker perhaps an analogy would be difference between English and Swedish!). If we telegraph back to the period 200BC-200AD the difference between the two branches would have probably been on order of less of a difference seen today between German and Dutch (heck or Danish and Swedish). There would have been a number of sound-change differences (the infamous Q->P) but you would have been talking about closely related languages that were easy enough to switch between (eg. easy to be bilingual)

In such a scenario language shift/contact could easy occur due to proximity between groups. So if for example it was easier for groups in Argyll/Inner Hebrides to trade with people in NE Antrim than across mountains of central highlands well it wouldn't be surprising that you would see convergence.

Of course by the 6th century we see a major shift in both groups. The shift from Archaic Irish (as written on Ogham) to Old Irish is drastic (akin to going from Latin to say Italian of Dante), likewise we see 'Neo-Brythonic' which is parent of the modern Brythonic languages underwent both sound-shifts as well as showing influence from Latin (borrowings, pronunciation etc.), in contrast one theory about 'Pictish' is that one could see it as non-Roman impacted Brythonic eg. more conservative and more akin to language in southern Britain before Roman invasion.

Leaving aside all that, if we posit that the ruling groups in Argyll had thus taken part in linguistic shift that would eventually produce 'Old Irish' due to contact networks, than it shouldn't be surprising that they would want to have a genealogical framework that ties in with what was developing in Ireland at the time. It also ties in with idea that Dál Riata had alliances with parts of the Northern Uí Néill (Cenél nEogain if memory serves me right) who were of course expanding at expanse of the Cruithne over-kingdom in mid-Ulster (conquest of Fír Lí). In such a scenario a common enemy often leads to a favourable genealogy. In case of the Cruithne their genealogy specifically paints them as been non-Gael eg. they do not descend from the fabled Míl Espaine (whose name is a calque from Latin! obviously a literally creation)

This probably ties in with fact that a number of Dál nAraidi contested for the titular role of 'High King' (eg. King of Tara) during the 6th/7th century. Obviously in general rewriting of Irish history in the 8th century this fact was generally written out (eg. exclusion from Kings list -- the creation of idea that only the Uí Néill could hold the high-kingship etc.)

Jon
09-12-2017, 10:02 AM
Thanks to you both. Castle3, I have read Clarkson, most recently his book on the Picts. Very readable, and he seems to be well-researched. I'll check out Henri Hubert.

Thanks Dubhthach. Really fascinating historical and linguistic info. Do you think then that the L513 link between Scotland and Ireland (and between Fermanagh etc. and Munster) could possible reflect these Cruithin/Ulaid population groups?

castle3
09-12-2017, 11:06 AM
I imagine what we are seeing are contact networks, that results in development of a dialect chain stretching from Munster into Argyll. People have to remember that even though Welsh (eg. Modern Brythonic) and Irish (modern Goidelic) are quite far apart, this is due to divergence over the last 2000-2500 years. (For an english speaker perhaps an analogy would be difference between English and Swedish!). If we telegraph back to the period 200BC-200AD the difference between the two branches would have probably been on order of less of a difference seen today between German and Dutch (heck or Danish and Swedish). There would have been a number of sound-change differences (the infamous Q->P) but you would have been talking about closely related languages that were easy enough to switch between (eg. easy to be bilingual)

In such a scenario language shift/contact could easy occur due to proximity between groups. So if for example it was easier for groups in Argyll/Inner Hebrides to trade with people in NE Antrim than across mountains of central highlands well it wouldn't be surprising that you would see convergence.

Of course by the 6th century we see a major shift in both groups. The shift from Archaic Irish (as written on Ogham) to Old Irish is drastic (akin to going from Latin to say Italian of Dante), likewise we see 'Neo-Brythonic' which is parent of the modern Brythonic languages underwent both sound-shifts as well as showing influence from Latin (borrowings, pronunciation etc.), in contrast one theory about 'Pictish' is that one could see it as non-Roman impacted Brythonic eg. more conservative and more akin to language in southern Britain before Roman invasion.

Leaving aside all that, if we posit that the ruling groups in Argyll had thus taken part in linguistic shift that would eventually produce 'Old Irish' due to contact networks, than it shouldn't be surprising that they would want to have a genealogical framework that ties in with what was developing in Ireland at the time. It also ties in with idea that Dál Riata had alliances with parts of the Northern Uí Néill (Cenél nEogain if memory serves me right) who were of course expanding at expanse of the Cruithne over-kingdom in mid-Ulster (conquest of Fír Lí). In such a scenario a common enemy often leads to a favourable genealogy. In case of the Cruithne their genealogy specifically paints them as been non-Gael eg. they do not descend from the fabled Míl Espaine (whose name is a calque from Latin! obviously a literally creation)

This probably ties in with fact that a number of Dál nAraidi contested for the titular role of 'High King' (eg. King of Tara) during the 6th/7th century. Obviously in general rewriting of Irish history in the 8th century this fact was generally written out (eg. exclusion from Kings list -- the creation of idea that only the Uí Néill could hold the high-kingship etc.)

Excellent post, Dubhthach.
Cheers,
Bob

castle3
09-12-2017, 11:53 AM
For balance: Bridget Brennan has written a paper (see Academia) which aims to counter some of Campbell's theories. Worth reading.

Dubhthach
09-12-2017, 12:21 PM
Well Campbell use of Ringforts and Crannogs (if I recall right?) were a bit silly, as earliest dated Ringforts seem to date from the 7th century. Crannóg's are found throughout the northern half of Ireland, heck one of major Uí Néill kingship sites in Southern Brega (basically just north of Dublin) was a Crannóg.

What's interesting of course is distrubution of Crannóg's in Ireland is we are seeing part of wider pattern of a North/South divide basically following a line from Galway <-> Dublin

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xRNzboaYRA8/Vmrtq-AGQbI/AAAAAAAATzE/5oF7SISEtm4/s640/Crannog%2Bdistribution.JPG

castle3
09-12-2017, 01:36 PM
Well Campbell use of Ringforts and Crannogs (if I recall right?) were a bit silly, as earliest dated Ringforts seem to date from the 7th century. Crannóg's are found throughout the northern half of Ireland, heck one of major Uí Néill kingship sites in Southern Brega (basically just north of Dublin) was a Crannóg.

What's interesting of course is distrubution of Crannóg's in Ireland is we are seeing part of wider pattern of a North/South divide basically following a line from Galway <-> Dublin

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xRNzboaYRA8/Vmrtq-AGQbI/AAAAAAAATzE/5oF7SISEtm4/s640/Crannog%2Bdistribution.JPG

You're correct. The Crannog theory wasn't a very persuasive line to pursue. However , I think his reasoning in several other areas was sound. As ever, it's vital to look at every piece of evidence for balance.

TigerMW
09-12-2017, 02:58 PM
Fraser, in 'From Caledonia to Pictland Scotland to 795' p148/9,says:
The Cruithni may have been British incomers from various parts of the west of outer Brigantia, Argyll and the Hebrides. Later Gaelic ethnographers distinguished Dal Riata from the Cruithni in racial terms. If we set such pseudo-history aside, we are confronted by two neighbouring Early Historic peoples, one based largely in Britain with a small presence in Antrim, and the other based in Ireland but known there as 'Britons'. Together they form the kind of link between Argyll and north-east Ireland that scholars require to explain Gaelic in Argyll.'

It needs highlighting that the Druim Alban mountain range isolated the people of Argyll from their north-east neighbours, hence the containing of the Pictish language, & the promotion of Gaelic.

He goes on to promote the British incursions into Ireland theory, as opposed to the old Antrim to Argyll origin myth model. I recall he also mentioned that sadly, for political reasons, the revisionist view isn't easy to promote in large parts of Ireland.

L513 may also be due to Kingdom of Strathclyde Brythonic Celts moving to Ireland, along with the more recent Plantation movements.

I tend to keep an open mind re all this but, on balance, I favour the revisionist view.

Does anyone have population estimates for Wales (west of the Offa's Dyke), north in England (Hadrian's Wall) and the north in Scotland (Antonine's Wall) in the pre-Romano-Britain era and then in the pre-Anglo-Saxon era in contrast to old Romano-Britain?

I suspect that L513 along with other subclades may actually have had a larger base in Central-South-East England but moved to the west and north and over to Ireland. I think there is more Briton in the Old Irish than is politically correct.

There are at least three groups that may have impacted things.
1) The Romans
2) The Anglo-Saxons
3) and to a lesser degree Cambro-Normans

Jon
09-12-2017, 04:13 PM
I suspect that L513 along with other subclades may actually have had a larger base in Central-South-East England but moved to the west and north and over to Ireland. I think there is more Briton in the Old Irish than is politically correct.

Hi again gents,

So I've spent the afternoon dipping into my growing library on all things early medieval...including:

JMP Calise 'Pictish Sourcebook'
Stephen Driscoll 'Alba'
Koch/Carey 'The Celtic Heroic Age'
Clarke/Blackwell/Goldberg 'Early Medieval Scotland'
....all the others mentioned above so far (Fraser, Woolf, Clarkson etc.).

While I don't have the stats for population estimates, it strikes me (especially in Calise, above), the extent to which shared kinship is referred to between 'indigenous' Scottish groups (e.g. Picts, Strathclyders etc) and kinship groups in Ireland. This surely would suggest, again without prejudice, that there were P-Celtic connections between the regions. And the wonderful thing is that, as someone once said, "DNA doesn't lie". Whatever anyone's agenda may be, the patterns of DNA are undeniable. It would seem then that with L513, as well as other HG's, we're seeing a link-up between population groups both sides of the Irish Sea, whether P- or Q- speaking, and however unpalatable that may be to some people.

To try to bring things back to the thread topic, which group/s could this be? Cruithin/Ulaid have been mentioned, and there is of course the not uncontroversial suggestion that the Cruithin might have been closely related to the Picts in Scotland (although I understand that's been effectively ditched as a theory).

So who might be the elusive 'Irish' L513? Ulaid, Cruithin, Erainn?

TigerMW
09-12-2017, 04:28 PM
..
So who might be the elusive 'Irish' L513? Ulaid, Cruithin, Erainn?
Might be, but they might also be people from Belgium that moved into the Isles after the initial Bell Beaker folks push in any number of circumstances.

I ask about the population estimates pre-Roman and pre-Anglo-Saxon times because it is my understanding that the England has more fertile land and could support larger populations.

These people had a lot of pressure on them with several waves and major conflicts in England that would have pushed them north and west.

This might be why L513 appears elusive - because where they are at is not where they are from.

Jon
09-12-2017, 06:15 PM
This might be why L513 appears elusive - because where they are at is not where they are from.

I agree - but surely that could be said of any group to come to the Isles at any point in time - they had of course to come from somewhere. Being islands, that is always going to be true. But it is surely undeniable that today, the pattern so far (and of course that could change with further testing) shows L513 most strongly represented in the Isles, and within the Isles, in present-day Scotland and Ireland. I agree that they must originally have come with larger population movements into the Isles. And I read the many excellent threads which deal with the earlier movements, e.g. Bell Beakers. The question that really fascinates me, being a fan of Scottish/Irish history, is how does L513 play in the known historical kinship groups of these regions, which is why I wanted to start a thread to generate ideas.

castle3
09-12-2017, 07:01 PM
Does anyone have population estimates for Wales (west of the Offa's Dyke), north in England (Hadrian's Wall) and the north in Scotland (Antonine's Wall) in the pre-Romano-Britain era and then in the pre-Anglo-Saxon era in contrast to old Romano-Britain?

I suspect that L513 along with other subclades may actually have had a larger base in Central-South-East England but moved to the west and north and over to Ireland. I think there is more Briton in the Old Irish than is politically correct.

There are at least three groups that may have impacted things.
1) The Romans
2) The Anglo-Saxons
3) and to a lesser degree Cambro-Normans

I agree with your first statement that some findings re Ireland aren't to be tolerated by many, Mike.
I don't believe the Romans had much influence, outwith the Johnstones & a couple of other Border clans.
The Norman input is totally over-played, in my opinion, this due to the desire to match Queen Victoria's Germanic links.
Re Wales: I would say that there is a reasonable amount of DNA in S W Wales that is influenced by the Normans & Flemings.
Re the above: I've just had a session at the pub, so don't take too much of what I write seriously!
Cheers,
Bob

Dubhthach
09-13-2017, 12:21 PM
Well I don't know, anyone who reads the archaelogy with regards to the late Iron age knows there are specific ties between Northern Britain and the northern half of Ireland. Leaving that aside the Welsh are after all our closest linguistic relatives so again I doubt many people would be surprised of interconnection.

What we keep seeing over and over again is datapoints that seem to reinforce the pseudo-historical account of binary division of Ireland into two halves, divided by line running from Galway <-> Dublin (give or take), this shows up in for example

Archaelogy:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/irelandlpria.jpg

Distrubution of Ogham Stones (the oldest written variation of Irish eg. 'Archaic Irish' -- the closest written language to which is Gaulish by the way)
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ogham-map.png

To the main isoglosses in the modern dialects of Irish:
http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/croc-isogloss.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/munster-isogloss.png

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/ao-isogloss.png

To the distribution of M222

http://compsoc.nuigalway.ie/~dubhthach/DNA/m222_spread.png

To the early medieval differences in legal tradition between the two halves, with the Senchas Már tradition of north appearing to reflect lordship carved out of swordland etc. The excavations done by Warner at Clogher hillfort (within historic territory of the Aírgialla, and name of the diocese that was setup for them in 12th century) also talks about 1st century AD evidence of what appears to be items of origin from Southern Britain (eg. might be reflective of people fleeing the Roman conquest of Britain etc.)

We also can't ignore the mechanics of medieval lordship and lineage proliferation when looking at Y-DNA lineages in Ireland.



One of the most important phenomena in a clan-based society is that of expansion from the top downwards. The seventeenth-century Irish scholar and genealogist Dualtagh Mac Firbisigh remarked that 'as the sons and families of the rulers multiplied, so their subjects and followers were squeezed out and withered away; and this phenomenon, the expansion of the ruling or dominant stocks at the expense of the remainder, is a normal feature in societies of this type. It has been observed of the modern Basotho of South Africa that 'there is a constant displacement of commoners by royals [i.e. members of the royal clan] and of collateral royals by the direct descendants of the ruling prince;, and this could have been said without adaptation , of any important Gaelic or Gaelicized lordship of late medieval Ireland.

In Fermanagh, for example the kingship of the Maguires began only with the accession of Donn Mór in 1282 and the ramification of the family - with the exception of one or two small and territorially unimportant septs - began with the sons of the same man. the spread of his descendants can be seen by the genealogical tract called Geinelaighe Fhearmanach; by 1607 they must have been in the possession of at least three-quarters of the total soil of Fermanagh, having displaced or reduced the clans which had previously held it. The rate which an Irish clan could itself must not be underestimated. Turlough an fhíona O'Donnell, lord of Tirconnell (d. 1423) had eighteen sons (by ten different women) and fifty-nine grandsons in the male line. Mulmora O'Reilly, the lord of East Brefny, who died in 1566, had at least fifty-eight O'Reilly grandsons.
Philip Maguire, lord of Fermanagh (d. 1395) had twenty sons by eight mothers, and we know of at least fifty grandsons. Oliver Burke of Tirawley (two of whose became Lower Mac William although he himself had never held that position) left at least thirty-eight grandsons in the male line.

Irish law drew no distinction in matters of inheritance between the legitimate and the illegitimate and permitted the affiliation of children by their mother's declaration (see Chapter 4), and the general sexual


Interesting when it comes to FGC9775 the convergence date in Iain McDonald's work would point to it been in right timeframe to be connected to expansion of the Maguires:

The table below gives a "best guess" at a convergence date, but the true date could be anywhere within the stated 95% confidence interval (and even then only with 95% certainty).
Clade\t Best guess 95% confidence interval
FGC9775 1140 AD (742 AD — 1440 AD)

Jon
09-13-2017, 02:00 PM
Interesting when it comes to FGC9775 the convergence date in Iain McDonald's work would point to it been in right timeframe to be connected to expansion of the Maguires:

The table below gives a "best guess" at a convergence date, but the true date could be anywhere within the stated 95% confidence interval (and even then only with 95% certainty).
Clade\t Best guess 95% confidence interval
FGC9775 1140 AD (742 AD — 1440 AD)

Wow - thanks Dubhthach: great background information. It is amazing the extent to which those archaeological zones, and linguistic categories, can be seen in some clades. Do you happen to have a distribution map for L513 similar to the M222 one you posted?

The Maguires are clearly the largest grouping within L513 in Ireland; but to my knowledge the highest overall frequency of L513 in Ireland is still down in Munster (the O'Shea grouping, for instance, which seems to be the 'Kerry core' of that surname). So there must be a genetic link between these areas, again something which comes up in the pseudo-history when there is mention of the Dal Riata migrating into the north from Munster. Plus, L513 is found in both Ulster and Munster, which doesn't entirely line up with the La Tène findings in the map?

Muireagain
09-13-2017, 03:33 PM
L513 is not Ulaid, which is a branch of M222, nor are they Cruithne, for the Ui Eathach Cobha (Magennis, MacCann etc.) are I2a. L513 might be described as Erainn?

That the Kerry O'Shea are L513 is interesting for they are from Corcu Duibhne, which in turn claim to be from Síl Conairi. This makes them relatives of the Dal Riada for they both claim descent from Síl Conairi. This connection doesn't change my opinion that Dal Riada are L1065, it does for me suggest that the Dal Riada might have stolen the origin story of their allies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%ADl_Conairi

Are the L513>S5668 the Darini\Dáirine ??

"The Darini (Δαρῖνοι) (manuscript variant: Darnii [Δάρνιοι]) were a people of ancient Ireland mentioned in Ptolemy's 2nd century Geography as living in south Antrim and north Down.[1] Their name implies descent from an ancestor called Dáire (*Dārios),[2] as claimed by several historical peoples, including the Dál Riata and Dál Fiatach (Ulaidh) in the same area of eastern Ulster[3] as well the Érainn (Iverni) of Munster. An early name for Dundrum, County Down, is recorded as Dún Droma Dáirine, and the name Dáirine was applied to the Érainn dynasty."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

Jon
09-13-2017, 03:57 PM
L513 is not Ulaid, which is a branch of M222, nor are they Cruithne, for the Ui Eathach Cobha (Magennis, MacCann etc.) are I2a. L513 might be described as Erainn?

...and indeed the Erainn (Iverni) were said to be related to the Fir Bolg/Belgae, which might explain the links to present-day Britain, and the continental (also specifically Belgian) folks we're seeing in L513?

Mag Uidhir 6
09-13-2017, 09:52 PM
Somewhat speculating here but...it looks to me that L513>S5668 split at A7 & Z16340.
Z16340 has Menapia origins and they had ties to and with Veneti in pre Roman times. Both are seafaring tribes so trading and raiding were commonplace.
Taking numbers from Alex's Tree:
There are 39 Z16340 NGS men.
There 106 A7 NGS men
There are 13 Z16357 NGS men.
For a total of 160 S5668 NGS men.

Clearly these lines were related some 3800ybp (according to YFull)
A7 is est at 3800ybp where Z16340 is est at 3400ybp.

Until we dig up some of these related and separate SNPs....I'm not sure a true genealogy can be accurately determined.

Within the Maguire line (Mag Uidhir) there is such widespread speculation and/or deadset belief in a particular pedigree, that I have no problem believing many are pedigrees of convenience to offset land confiscation.

But that's just me.

Dubhthach
09-14-2017, 09:09 AM
What we are really missing is more ancient DNA from Ireland, the only examples we have our Neolithic and Early Bronze age. Several major cemetries were discovered during the economic boom in Ireland due to development. A good example is the one in Cabinteely in South Dublin (which is on southern edge of the Dublin urban area). A graveyard containing over 1500 remains covering a period of 7 centuries (earliest remains date to 5th century AD)

http://irisharchaeology.ie/2015/10/medieval-burials-discovered-at-cabinteely-co-dublin/

http://irisharchaeology.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/10E0308_22-09-2015_61_SK03.jpg

18730

see report here:
https://www.academia.edu/23975240/Directors_First_Findings_from_Excavations_in_Cabin teely

There are several such major finds with decent quality skeleton discovered in last 15-20 years. Up in South Donegal near the Fermanagh border for example there is similar site with equivalent number of bodies and usage period (well from 7th to 14th centuries).

It's only when we build up a proper database of the distrubution of Y-chromosome haplogorups throughout the historical period will we be able to set baselines for when a specific haplogroup might be in a specific geographic region.

Muireagain
10-26-2017, 06:40 PM
From 14th century Irish sources we are told:
"Dal-Raita and the Fir Alban. They are both of the seed of Coirpre Rigfota, son of Conaire, son of Mog of Munster. Great famine came on Munster, so that the seed of Coirpre Rigfota departed from it, and one division of them reached Scotland, while the other division remained in Erin: whence the Dal Riata to this day."
and
"Cairbre Rigfhota, that is a long (fota) forearm (rig) had he. Or rig ḟota, that is he made a stretching-out (rigid) afar (hi fota), to wit, getting Ireland and invading Scotland, so that afterwards from him Dál-Riatai in Scotland (is named)."

The O'Shea of Muscraighe are L513 and are said to share common ancestry with the descendants of Cairpre Righfada who settled in Scotland .Suggesting the Scottish L513 families are "descendants of Cairpre Righfada". However the Dal Riata, who settled Scotland north of Forth, would be L1065 - as reflected by the majority of highland being L1065+.

This suggests that a false assumption has arisen that the Dal Riata were descended from Cairpre Righfada. It would seem that the descendants of Cairpre Righfada settled Scotland independently of the Dal Riata, and that the two population have later become confused as one people?