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Lara101
09-08-2017, 02:32 AM
Few years ago I remember haryana jatts showed very high northern euro component at 20%, the most in South Asia. How come they were not tested further? And how come no interest was taken to learn about their history and where they came from? 20% Northern Euro is very high for a indian group, it is a mystery

Lara101
09-09-2017, 08:37 PM
Any replies.

VelvetNono
09-10-2017, 02:17 AM
There is a similar topic here if you are interested in reading it: Indian friend with European segments (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10586-Indian-friend-with-European-segments).

The user Pegasus (commenting on the topic in the link) gave a good explaintion for this "North Euro" results:

The "North Euro" component in S/SC Asians is not really from Northern Europe its from Pontic Steppe in Southern Ukraine of Yamnaya people. Who themselves were largely a mix between a West Asian population (CHG) closely related to Neolithic Iranians and the other half from EHGs who mainly derive their genome from North Asiatic Siberians like MA1 and AG3

Northern European like Baltic countries and even Scots have a lot of that Yamnaya like ancestry and in modern calculators its assigned as North Euro, British, etc.

parasar
09-10-2017, 03:26 AM
There is a similar topic here if you are interested in reading it: Indian friend with European segments (http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10586-Indian-friend-with-European-segments).

The user Pegasus (commenting on the topic in the link) gave a good explaintion for this "North Euro" results:

pegasus may be right, but we can't be sure as yet.
IMO this North Euro is R1a1-M417 related. Therefore I am inclined to believe that the Pontic steppe was not involved in the initial dispersal of this component. It was the forest-steppe zone from where I think a spur went SW to central Europe (Corded Ware CTS4385 Z283) and a spur went SE to South Asia (Z93). This is the same as the Arctic component we see in northern Europeans.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-10-2017, 04:13 AM
Heck the same NE euro shows in Native americans. On ANE K7 it turns into high WHG and ANE, but less ENF. Keep in mind Jatts are less likely to marry outside in comparison to other communities, hence they preserved more euro, but 14-15% euro has shows up in other groups as well. 13% for myself. How I know that it's the same euro? those samples were all R1a1a and 2 of those samples matched with me on Gedmatch.

pegasus
09-10-2017, 05:09 AM
pegasus may be right, but we can't be sure as yet.
IMO this North Euro is R1a1-M417 related. Therefore I am inclined to believe that the Pontic steppe was not involved in the initial dispersal of this component. It was the forest-steppe zone from where I think a spur went SW to central Europe (Corded Ware CTS4385 Z283) and a spur went SE to South Asia (Z93). This is the same as the Arctic component we see in northern Europeans.
He is not talking about uniparental markers , you can have different uniparental markers and be genetically the same. Yes , Forrest Steppe plays a huge role in the formation of Balto Slavs and Proto Indo Iranians, that looks like Middle Dneiper/Balanovo cultures but those are still rooted in Yamnaya. Conversely Northern Europeans scoring the "Baloch" component was not because they had mixed with Pakistanis but because Yamnaya related peoples brought it. Likewise with S/SC Asians its the same thing, the component was brought by Indo Iranian nomads. Yeah they are some unresolved things but with wrt to Harappa dna , what I said is right because what other population would mainly bring that NE component to South Asia but that test is from 2012-13 so things have become more complicated since then.

parasar
09-10-2017, 04:36 PM
He is not talking about uniparental markers , you can have different uniparental markers and be genetically the same. Yes , Forrest Steppe plays a huge role in the formation of Balto Slavs and Proto Indo Iranians, that looks like Middle Dneiper/Balanovo cultures but those are still rooted in Yamnaya. Conversely Northern Europeans scoring the "Baloch" component was not because they had mixed with Pakistanis but because Yamnaya related peoples brought it. Likewise with S/SC Asians its the same thing, the component was brought by Indo Iranian nomads. Yeah they are some unresolved things but with wrt to Harappa dna , what I said is right because what other population would mainly bring that NE component to South Asia but that test is from 2012-13 so things have become more complicated since then.

I said NE Euro is R1a1-M417 related.
This relationship is not causal but correlational. When 50-80% of a populations line is of a certain Y type that correlation is strong, if it is 10% or so, not so much.

Forrest-steppe is related to but not rooted in Yamna.

parasar
09-10-2017, 04:57 PM
Heck the same NE euro shows in Native americans. On ANE K7 it turns into high WHG and ANE, but less ENF. Keep in mind Jatts are less likely to marry outside in comparison to other communities, hence they preserved more euro, but 14-15% euro has shows up in other groups as well. 13% for myself. How I know that it's the same euro? those samples were all R1a1a and 2 of those samples matched with me on Gedmatch.

Yes that NE Euro in Amerindians is ultimately of the same origin. It is more diffuse as the Amerindians separated earlier. The reason I brought in the term Arctic is that it may have entered Europe first from the Arctic zone.


But components derived from modern populations are virtually useless if you are looking to find ancestral components. It is likely just shared ancestry. The so called NE European or even Arctic component is also perhaps only shared ancestry.
Right now for South Asians we are forced to use just modern populations - once we have ancient DNA data from the region we will be on better grounds to figure as to what is ancestral and what is shared.

Lara101
09-10-2017, 05:35 PM
Heck the same NE euro shows in Native americans. On ANE K7 it turns into high WHG and ANE, but less ENF. Keep in mind Jatts are less likely to marry outside in comparison to other communities, hence they preserved more euro, but 14-15% euro has shows up in other groups as well. 13% for myself. How I know that it's the same euro? those samples were all R1a1a and 2 of those samples matched with me on Gedmatch.

Are you jatt? Yes the 14 15% is found in UP and Nepali brahmins. But is the same source as jatts. Also what is surprising is kalash have lower of this then these north indic groups

Lara101
09-10-2017, 05:36 PM
On a side note. I know this nepali brahmin. He looks very caucasian. I want him to get tested too

pegasus
09-10-2017, 06:27 PM
I said NE Euro is R1a1-M417 related.
This relationship is not causal but correlational. When 50-80% of a populations line is of a certain Y type that correlation is strong, if it is 10% or so, not so much.

Forrest-steppe is related to but not rooted in Yamna.

Ofcourse it is, much like Corded Ware.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-10-2017, 06:29 PM
Are you jatt? Yes the 14 15% is found in UP and Nepali brahmins. But is the same source as jatts. Also what is surprising is kalash have lower of this then these north indic groups

I don't recall UP nepali brahmins getting 15% euro on harrapa. UP brahmins are more ASI shifted and Nepali Brahmins usually slightly East Asian shifted. The max I've seen in a Nepali brahmin is around 13%.

No, I'm not a jatt. I'm Tarkhan. Kalash people are really inbred, whatever their source ancestry was, they kept it within community with inbreeding. Living in remote area helped them preserve their ancestry from invasions while NW plains of South Asia was open ground for invaders.

You can look like mongolian and have high NE euro (Siberian and Native americans). It is an ancient admixture whose source population may not look like present day "Caucasians". That's why terms like Caucasian, Mongoloid etc etc kind of become useless in genetics world.

pegasus
09-10-2017, 07:27 PM
I don't recall UP nepali brahmins getting 15% euro on harrapa. UP brahmins are more ASI shifted and Nepali Brahmins usually slightly East Asian shifted. The max I've seen in a Nepali brahmin is around 13%.

No, I'm not a jatt. I'm Tarkhan. Kalash people are really inbred, whatever their source ancestry was, they kept it within community with inbreeding. Living in remote area helped them preserve their ancestry from invasions while NW plains of South Asia was open ground for invaders.

You can look like mongolian and have high NE euro (Siberian and Native americans). It is an ancient admixture whose source population may not look like present day "Caucasians". That's why terms like Caucasian, Mongoloid etc etc kind of become useless in genetics world.

Ironically Kalash do not marry first cousins but clearly have a founder effect. Nuristanis across the border are more or less the same as them but are far more numerous. Khana had a sample of one them he was like a Kalash. Kalash are not all that different genetically from upper caste NW South Asians , just less ASI shifted and more Steppe shifted . What makes them interesting is their men have typical South Asian Y dna ( R2, L, H) but Kalash women have no South Asian Mtdna M whatsoever. There is no doubt these people are the closest to the proto Vedic Indo Aryans.

Lara101
09-10-2017, 08:39 PM
Ironically Kalash do not marry first cousins but clearly have a founder effect. Nuristanis across the border are more or less the same as them but are far more numerous. Khana had a sample of one them he was like a Kalash. Kalash are not all that different genetically from upper caste NW South Asians , just less ASI shifted and more Steppe shifted . What makes them interesting is their men have typical South Asian Y dna ( R2, L, H) but Kalash women have no South Asian Mtdna M whatsoever. There is no doubt these people are the closest to the proto Vedic Indo Aryans.

But wait, when Indo or proto indo aryans came to south asia, what was their genetic makeup? I was guessing they would have much more of the northern euro type component, much more then kalash. Kalash i think have mixed with south asians a lot in the last 200 to 300 years, this is why they have 20% south asian component in them

MonkeyDLuffy
09-10-2017, 09:09 PM
But wait, when Indo or proto indo aryans came to south asia, what was their genetic makeup? I was guessing they would have much more of the northern euro type component, much more then kalash. Kalash i think have mixed with south asians a lot in the last 200 to 300 years, this is why they have 20% south asian component in them

That's what we used to believe before, but SA had multiple migrations from west and north on different periods. It's not just one population that made impact on genetic structure of SAs

Lara101
09-10-2017, 09:36 PM
That's what we used to believe before, but SA had multiple migrations from west and north on different periods. It's not just one population that made impact on genetic structure of SAs

Yes, we know that through history, however indo aryans were one or few groups of people, what was their genetic makeup

pegasus
09-10-2017, 10:29 PM
But wait, when Indo or proto indo aryans came to south asia, what was their genetic makeup? I was guessing they would have much more of the northern euro type component, much more then kalash. Kalash i think have mixed with south asians a lot in the last 200 to 300 years, this is why they have 20% south asian component in them

I said they are the closest to pre Vedic Aryans , which is logical as the Vedic Aryans settled in that region first. I think you are reading too much into that calculator. Kalash are derived from the same groups other South Asians are derived from, but they are just less ASI shifted and more Steppe shifted, they are typically 12-13% ASI, while most upper caste NW South Asians(Punjabis, Sindhis) are in the 18-25% ASI range. Kalash are one of the most Iran_N rich populations and part of that SA component is Iran_N. The ones who do mix with other ethnic groups are usually Kalash who convert and intermarry with local Kho or Nuristanis from Bargimatal.

As for the first way of Indo Wave Aryans which came , my guess they would be Steppe shifted versions of Kalash or Pamiri Tajiks. But note they came in waves, so some might be different from others. But they definitely mixed with other groups before entering the region.

Lara101
09-10-2017, 10:56 PM
I said they are the closest to pre Vedic Aryans , which is logical as the Vedic Aryans settled in that region first. I think you are reading too much into that calculator. Kalash are derived from the same groups other South Asians are derived from, but they are just less ASI shifted and more Steppe shifted, they are typically 12-13% ASI, while most upper caste NW South Asians(Punjabis, Sindhis) are in the 18-25% ASI range. Kalash are one of the most Iran_N rich populations and part of that SA component is Iran_N. The ones who do mix with other ethnic groups are usually Kalash who convert and intermarry with local Kho or Nuristanis from Bargimatal.

As for the first way of Indo Wave Aryans which came , my guess they would be Steppe shifted versions of Kalash or Pamiri Tajiks. But note they came in waves, so some might be different from others. But they definitely mixed with other groups before entering the region.

Im confused. Arent majority of nw south asians baloch/gedrosia component? That component is west asian middle eastern in origin. So how can south asians be derived from steepe? Only may be 20-25% of nw south asian ancestry is from steepe, rest being west asian and Asi. Majority of other south asians are much more ASI then anything else

pegasus
09-11-2017, 02:58 AM
Im confused. Arent majority of nw south asians baloch/gedrosia component? That component is west asian middle eastern in origin. So how can south asians be derived from steepe? Only may be 20-25% of nw south asian ancestry is from steepe, rest being west asian and Asi. Majority of other south asians are much more ASI then anything else

You are still referring to Harappa. Yamnaya score 30% Baloch/Gerdosia on it btw. Looking at Iran_Hotu, he is very ANE rich and this area is more closer Central Asia. Middle Eastern is a modern construct, but yeah the ethnogenesis of these people occurs in the Iranian plateau or nearby regions of Central Asia. Also these people themselves are unique compared to Natufians and Anatolian Farmers , roughly 40-50% of their genome is coming from MA1 like peoples living in North Central/North Asia.

Lara101
09-11-2017, 03:53 AM
Did they test yamnaya skeletons to get 30% gerdosia? How did they get number

Lara101
09-12-2017, 08:29 PM
You are still referring to Harappa. Yamnaya score 30% Baloch/Gerdosia on it btw. Looking at Iran_Hotu, he is very ANE rich and this area is more closer Central Asia. Middle Eastern is a modern construct, but yeah the ethnogenesis of these people occurs in the Iranian plateau or nearby regions of Central Asia. Also these people themselves are unique compared to Natufians and Anatolian Farmers , roughly 40-50% of their genome is coming from MA1 like peoples living in North Central/North Asia.

so did they test their skeletons? if so, how many of these ancient people's dna has been tested? sorry I am not up to date on what is happening in the last few years. any where I can see the results? some spreadsheet or something. Thanks

Observer
09-12-2017, 09:55 PM
so did they test their skeletons? if so, how many of these ancient people's dna has been tested? sorry I am not up to date on what is happening in the last few years. any where I can see the results? some spreadsheet or something. Thanks

Harrappa calculator is outdated and uses moderns not very helpful anymore.

Basal-rich K7 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1216001351) has ancients and moderns.

Currently relevant ancient populations for South Asians are Iran_Neolithic (mix of ANE + Basal), Iran_Hotu (mix of ANE + Basal) and Yamnaya/Afanasievo ( mix of EHG + CHG). EHG is mix of (ANE + WHG) and CHG is mix of (ANE + Basal).

South Asian admixture is mostly ANE+ Basal + ASI (unknown ghost-population related to Asians/Oceanians). ASI in K7 breaks down into East Eurasian, Southeast Asian and Oceanian in South Asians. We don't have ancient DNA from South Asia yet but things will be more clear once we do.

Lara101
09-13-2017, 11:08 PM
Harrappa calculator is outdated and uses moderns not very helpful anymore.

Basal-rich K7 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1216001351) has ancients and moderns.

Currently relevant ancient populations for South Asians are Iran_Neolithic (mix of ANE + Basal), Iran_Hotu (mix of ANE + Basal) and Yamnaya/Afanasievo ( mix of EHG + CHG). EHG is mix of (ANE + WHG) and CHG is mix of (ANE + Basal).

South Asian admixture is mostly ANE+ Basal + ASI (unknown ghost-population related to Asians/Oceanians). ASI in K7 breaks down into East Eurasian, Southeast Asian and Oceanian in South Asians. We don't have ancient DNA from South Asia yet but things will be more clear once we do.

Thanks for the spreadsheet. Interesting. How can i see haryana jatts and their numbers? I only see gujraties as the only indians on spreadsheet. Are haryana jatts similar to pathans?

Lara101
09-13-2017, 11:14 PM
Harrappa calculator is outdated and uses moderns not very helpful anymore.

Basal-rich K7 spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1tFAa7oxWpcNN-OdMMjBdb4NeWKG7EkpKMzZJVW2_MME/edit?pref=2&pli=1#gid=1216001351) has ancients and moderns.

Currently relevant ancient populations for South Asians are Iran_Neolithic (mix of ANE + Basal), Iran_Hotu (mix of ANE + Basal) and Yamnaya/Afanasievo ( mix of EHG + CHG). EHG is mix of (ANE + WHG) and CHG is mix of (ANE + Basal).

South Asian admixture is mostly ANE+ Basal + ASI (unknown ghost-population related to Asians/Oceanians). ASI in K7 breaks down into East Eurasian, Southeast Asian and Oceanian in South Asians. We don't have ancient DNA from South Asia yet but things will be more clear once we do.

Also. Although this is a good spreadsheet, i like the one with modern humans better, in terms of south asia. The reason for this is because majority of south asian admixture occured between 2000 and 4000 years ago, when many modern groups existed. This is why i want to findout who south asians mixed with within the last 4000 years. South asia has seen so many invasions over the last few thousand years

Observer
09-17-2017, 01:40 PM
Thanks for the spreadsheet. Interesting. How can i see haryana jatts and their numbers? I only see gujraties as the only indians on spreadsheet.

There are various South Asian samples there from Chamars, Brahmins, Gujarati, Velamas, Pashtun, Bengali, Baloch, Kalash to tribes like Chenchu, Gond, Panya to give an idea of admixture in entire South Asia region, who are various levels of mostly ANE+Basal+ASI admixed.


The reason for this is because majority of south asian admixture occured between 2000 and 4000 years ago, when many modern groups existed. This is why i want to findout who south asians mixed with within the last 4000 years. South asia has seen so many invasions over the last few thousand years

No, Modern populations had not fully formed yet during this period (4000 yrs ago), similar changes were taking place in Europe and West Asia around same time. Yamnaya-related group were settling in Europe and Iran_Neolithic group were being replaced by Iran_ Chalcolithic group in Iranian plateau.

Scythians (2000 yrs ago) who invaded South Asia were similar to Yamnaya-related groups or similar to Eastern Scythian groups who were mixture of Yamnaya-related group + East Eurasian.

All these ancient groups are now extinct and only exist as admixture in modern populations across Eurasia, that's why moderns are not best way to determine where source admixture comes from. Ancient DNA is helpful in determining source of these admixture.


Are haryana jatts similar to pathans?

You have better luck asking that here, there are some Jatt users on this forum.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/forumdisplay.php?164-Hindi

pnb123
10-30-2017, 11:37 PM
I don't recall UP nepali brahmins getting 15% euro on harrapa. UP brahmins are more ASI shifted and Nepali Brahmins usually slightly East Asian shifted. The max I've seen in a Nepali brahmin is around 13%.

No, I'm not a jatt. I'm Tarkhan. Kalash people are really inbred, whatever their source ancestry was, they kept it within community with inbreeding. Living in remote area helped them preserve their ancestry from invasions while NW plains of South Asia was open ground for invaders.

You can look like mongolian and have high NE euro (Siberian and Native americans). It is an ancient admixture whose source population may not look like present day "Caucasians". That's why terms like Caucasian, Mongoloid etc etc kind of become useless in genetics world.


I scored around 14% NE Euro in Harappa. I have two other relatives on Gedmatch that scored above 14% NE Euro. I will not be surprised if I find Nepali brahmin with more than 15% NE Euro.

bmoney
10-31-2017, 12:45 AM
Are you jatt? Yes the 14 15% is found in UP and Nepali brahmins. But is the same source as jatts. Also what is surprising is kalash have lower of this then these north indic groups

Kalash + Hunza people are pre IA IMO, mostly Hap L and a strong Iran_N shift - though they have high ANE

DMXX
10-31-2017, 12:42 PM
Scythians (2000 yrs ago) who invaded South Asia were similar to Yamnaya-related groups or similar to Eastern Scythian groups who were mixture of Yamnaya-related group + East Eurasian.


We don't know that for certain without aDNA from the region.

The argument in favour of a pred. EMBA-like Scythian wave into SC and S Asia would be supported by the Sarmatians possessing that profile. However, the Iron Age Scythian looks largely LNBA-derived (EMBA + EEF). That is despite the fact that both lived within a few hundred years of another and resided near the Volga-Don region.

This distinction (LNBA vs. EMBA in a contemporaneous period) happens to exist between modern Iranians and Indians. An emerging mainstream (at least in these communities) explanation for the distinction is that the Iranian speakers were LNBA and the Indo-Aryans were EMBA. That accounts for the apparent difference in affinity between Iranians and Indians.

Why the Sarmatians were mostly EMBA is a good question. My suspicion is that predominantly EMBA populations (Yamnaya offshoots which did not receive the EEF transmitted through Corded Ware or Sintashta) did exist in the P-C steppes well into the Classical period. There's circumstantial evidence of this through modern Volga-Ural populations IIRC (they are effectively the combination of Yamnaya and Eastern Eurasian you described).

We should suspect that the late PIE rump (Balto-Slavic-Indo-Iranian-Greek-?Armenian-?Phrygian) was still mostly EMBA genetically, given our Latvian Corded Ware sample, showing it was basically a Yamnaya transplant in the Baltic.

[Edit]: I'm actually surprised this thread has gone into its' third page (even with the comparably larger steppe-related input, Haryana Jatts and every other ethnic group in the region clearly aren't Europeans in any meaningful sense). There are multiple other threads to discuss the specifics of reconstructed Jatt history. I'll be closing this thread shortly.