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TigerMW
08-08-2013, 03:16 PM
... I think there was discussion on the old DNA forums about Tajik M73 and I remember someone (maybe it was vineviz?) saying that it didn't look Turkic from the STR values.
Do you remember the topic/category or anything about the conversation with Vince V? I can't remember anything about R1b-M73 having Turkic versus non-Turkic haplotypes.

newtoboard
08-08-2013, 03:21 PM
Do you remember the topic/category or anything about the conversation with Vince V? I can't remember anything about R1b-M73 having Turkic versus non-Turkic haplotypes.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b1/default.aspx?section=yresults

TigerMW
08-08-2013, 03:25 PM
This came up on another thread but this is a good place to ask this. I've never seen any geographic analysis of R1b-M73 STRs to try to associate different clusters/varieties with different cultures, but I've never really looked for this so it might be out there. I guess we should look at the M73 project itself.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b1b1/default.aspx?section=yresults

Vince Vizachero is the project admin. He's got clusters A, B1 and B2.

A has English, French, Italian and Spanish MDKAs in it.
B1 has descendants from Turkey, Tajikistan, Uzebkistan, Russia and Luxembourg in it.
B2 has MDKAs from Kazahstan, Russia, Ukraine, Pakistan and China.

Maybe this can help in looking at bikini haplotypes from studies:
A has 393=12 390>=24
B1 has 393>=13 390<=24
B2 has 393=13 390=19

Whew! not use to the 390=19.

alan
08-08-2013, 11:11 PM
Just pasting this from another thread


Mike the problem with that is it only dates to 5000BC and its shared ancestor with M269 to 9000BC and there is no evidence of either west-east or east-west movement from the eastern steppes into the western steppes in that period. Anthony noted that this was a profound cultural barrier that probably emerged around 15000BC with the massive Caspian expansion to the north and was not really breached until 3500BC. P297 is not old enough for one group to have been located on one side and another on the other before this long period of cultural barrier. They both had to either be on one side or the other IMO. The cultural barriers to the western steppe groups were only broken down around the time when both M73 and M269 existed. The western barrier fell after 4200BC and the eastern barrier around 3500BC. Its very hard to not conclude that P297 lay between those two barriers i.e. on the western steppes which lies between them by definition.

The alternative of M73 coming south-north into its present area from SW Asia, the Caucasus, Iran etc seems to be almost impossible given the lack of M73 in those areas. Same with the idea of an origin in Old Europe. It almost has to have been located in the eastern end of the western steppes or the Urals

newtoboard
08-09-2013, 12:52 PM
Why is Central Asia not an option? What about an origin in the Inner Asian Mountain corridor and then an expansion north to the Altai or beyond it? It would then be in place where it would expand with Turks moving West. There is some M73 in Tajikistan so that would be interesting to look it. Kyrgyzstan has obviously had an R1a bottleneck though.

DMXX
08-09-2013, 01:13 PM
Regarding the R1b-M73 presence in West Asia;

- Cinnioglu et al. reported 4/~523 samples were R1b-M73 (approx. 1%)
- Grugni et al. found 1.7% of Khorasani Persians (n=59) were R1b-M73, with every other ethnic group having none

So, no, it doesn't appear a south-to-north route for M73 is likely based on these frequencies, which are barely pushing background levels.

newtoboard
08-09-2013, 01:23 PM
Regarding the R1b-M73 presence in West Asia;

- Cinnioglu et al. reported 4/~523 samples were R1b-M73 (approx. 1%)
- Grugni et al. found 1.7% of Khorasani Persians (n=59) were R1b-M73, with every other ethnic group having none

So, no, it doesn't appear a south-to-north route for M73 is likely based on these frequencies, which are barely pushing background levels.

West Asia can be ruled out but why can Central Asia be ruled out?

alan
08-09-2013, 06:20 PM
North central Asia is probably the only other option than the steppe-ural area. P297 would have to have split with M73 somehow ending up there and somehow M269 ending up further west. Starting point unknown. One way or another the Europe-central Asia divide would have had to have been breached at some point by one of those lines in the period 5000-4000BC. Really its just far simpler to place P297 at the midpoint between the area of M73 and M269 areas of strength. That would place it somewhere in the western steppes, the Caucasus etc. It seems to me we are jumping through hoops to avoid this conclusion. The relative positions can be explained by a presence in or fringing the steppes c. 5000BC with movement in two different directions from 5000-3000BC leading to the pattern we see today. After all, the great movements in that period that include both SE Europe and north central Asia are those of the steppe peoples. There is nothing else in that timespan that is common between central Asia and SE Europe.

IF the variance dates are on the money then it seems the only explanation. I was actually very much a skeptic of a steppe origin for a long time but assuming that big IF is correct then I think its the only option. I think I was fooled to some extent by the Ukraines modern lack of a high count of R1b but I am now more aware that much of the population dates back only 300 years and in its later phases was almost on an industrial scale. Even the population that was removed was itself very changes by wave after wave from the east. So I think that the area between the high M269 area in SE Europe and the high M73 from the Urals eastwards is essentially lost in terms of modern population study as a surrogate for prehistoric ones. That IMO has led to the loss of the most likely P297 centrepoint.

I think the evidence is slowly increasing that both M269 and M73 took the northern route when either travelled east of the Caspian.

DMXX
08-10-2013, 05:14 PM
West Asia can be ruled out but why can Central Asia be ruled out?

I wasn't commenting on Central Asia. I was only commenting on West Asia.

Even then, SNP frequencies alone aren't enough to rule out West Asia as a founding region. I did say it makes a south-to-north movement less likely, but it's still possible. Considering we have absolutely no intra-M73 markers, all we can do is rely on Y-STR diversity.

This entire discussion so far is mostly based on Y-SNP frequencies, which is an awfully dated way of approaching Y-DNA haplogroups. STR's are the other half of the story in most cases, but here, they're even more important than SNP validated frequencies in my opinion, because they are the only way we can gauge R1b-M73's diversity in any given location.

Farroukh
12-30-2013, 05:00 AM
Phylogenetic tree s of haplotypes from this project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1b1/default.aspx?section=yresults)

Cluster A, 37 markers, Europeans
TMRCA=3745 y.o.

http://s018.radikal.ru/i504/1311/57/fe66807a8534t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/51392caed3ed4754b9862f39cd5704f6)

Cluster B1, 25 markers, southern areas of Central Asia
TMRCA=2000 y.o.
http://s020.radikal.ru/i722/1311/4e/4c235abfbd7et.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/e47e2745c3754f65bfaea158724148b7)

Cluster B2, 25 markers, Kazakhstan
TMRCA=1200 y.o.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i601/1311/28/28b537895fd7t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/ec43e2e9a4ec455d9442e2b291fe4fa8)
Also they are L1432+, L1433+, L1434+, L1435+

All clusters in one tree, 25 markers:
TMRCA=4200 y.o.
http://s019.radikal.ru/i601/1311/57/8fd60e0ece95t.jpg (http://radikal.ru/fp/1e57824c1ad54d1f9219ce0b7d032c2a)

You can see "European cluster" is the oldest one. Two "Turkic clusters" are two different subclades too.