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View Full Version : R1b-DF27 frequencies on the continent: Iberia, France and ?



TigerMW
08-09-2013, 12:24 PM
This is has come before so let's start a thread on it. We are still in the early "projection" stages for drawing frequency maps for DF27. Doing the projections depends on the estimated rates of P312+ L21- U152- (and DF19- L238-) people coming out DF27+ versus DF27-.

It appears that in Iberia and Southern France this will be particularly high in DF27+, but we are still just projecting. The previous P312 project administrator was calculating a rate of more than 80% DF27+ out of P312+ L21- U152- people but I think that was just a general rate not focused on Iberia where the rate might be higher.


I am all for further testing, but I don't have much doubt about it. I just went through the public list of DF27+ in the P312 results pages and made a quick calculation of those with Iberian origins or new world Hispanic surnames.

DF27: 66
P312**: 1 (this is the person who says his ancestor was a Flemish merchant who settled in Spain in the 17C, so really shouldn't count as having an Iberian origin)

I don't think there are any of Iberian origin in the DF19 list yet, so if we exclude the Flemish P312** entry, that indicates that 66 of 66 people of probable Iberian origin who have tested for DF27 got positive results. Pretty good odds.

I am not suggesting there is no P312** in Iberia. I would be surprised if that were the case. I just don't think there is a significant number. Whether P312** turns out to be more plentiful in England than Iberia awaits a time when testing in Iberia matches that in Britain, which may never happen.

However we have hijacked the U152 in Sardinia thread, so we should cease this or move it elsewhere. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1180-U152-in-Sardinia-Francalacci-et-al-2013&p=11096&viewfull=1#post11096

TigerMW
08-09-2013, 01:44 PM
Here are the two versions we have so far. Richard Rocca produced the first version several months ago. The second version is Maciamo Hay's.

Richard Rocca/U152.org
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png

Maciamo Hays/Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

TigerMW
08-09-2013, 01:51 PM
I don't think Maciamo Hays is on this forum, but he does have a different perspective. He may be a bit more conservative in his projections. I'm not sure what is point is here. We probably should dust of the Adams study.

I hate to post something from another forum from someone who can communicate directly. He's been invited over here. Hopefully, he'll join.

I have looked for the North-South cluster STR's in the data of the Iberian study by Adams et al., as well as in the FTDNA projects for Scandinavia, Ireland, Scotland and the Benelux. I have revised the frequencies accordingly for Iberia and Gascony. However the frequencies of DF27 do not seem to exceed 5% anywhere in northern Europe.

I wonder how Richard Rocca gets the same frequency of DF27 in Cantabria + Asturias, where there is 55% of R1b, and in the Basque country + Catalonia, where R1b exceeds 85% of the population. That would mean that DF27 makes up
a much higher proportion of R1b subclades in Cantabria and Asturias. I don't think that is the case. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28933-New-map-of-R1b-DF27-(SRY2627-M153)?p=413525&viewfull=1#post413525

R.Rocca
08-09-2013, 06:15 PM
Mike, I had added the Martínez-Cruz (2012) data to Myres and busby to make the map. It was for P312(xU152,L21) so in the case of Cantabria, all samples were P312(xU152,L21) so 55% "predicted" DF27 seems about right.

razyn
08-09-2013, 07:50 PM
If we start with L11 and look at its main early subsets, would it be too speculative to suggest that DF27 became genetically more successful in places one needed to reach via lengthy maritime voyages (much of it at sea)? L21 has flourished in places to which one could not walk, but could reach by short channel-crossings; and U152 and U106 in places one had to walk to -- what with all those cows, geese, wives, etc.

Yeah, probably that would be way too speculative. But all the descendants of L11 started somewhere, and I still don't see much reason on the haplotree to believe it was Iberia or Italy, for any of them. On these modern-distribution maps, maybe.

Gray Fox
08-10-2013, 07:05 AM
Looks more like a map of just SRY2627! Thanks for stirring the coals back up, Mike.

GoldenHind
08-10-2013, 06:55 PM
This is has come before so let's start a thread on it. We are still in the early "projection" stages for drawing frequency maps for DF27. Doing the projections depends on the estimated rates of P312+ L21- U152- (and DF19- L238-) people coming out DF27+ versus DF27-.

It appears that in Iberia and Southern France this will be particularly high in DF27+, but we are still just projecting. The previous P312 project administrator was calculating a rate of more than 80% DF27+ out of P312+ L21- U152- people but I think that was just a general rate not focused on Iberia where the rate might be higher.



Henry had a group of those who had tested negative for both L21 and U152, the old P312* group. I believe this was his Group A. Presumably most of these had taken the former R1b deep clade test. His observation, based on tracking the results, was that 80% of this group, of whatever origin, got positive results when ordering DF27. As he placed probable L238 in a separate group, the remaining 20% were necessarily either DF19 or P312**. Since no DF19 or P312** of Iberian origin have been found yet, that means 100% of those of Iberian origin who were confirmed L21- and U152- got positive results on ordering DF27. This is another way of demonstrating the point I tried to make in the post you quoted above.

As I said before, this does not prove there is no DF19 or P312** in Iberia. It does suggest that 1) DF27 is more common among P312 (XL21,U152) in Iberia than the average in other parts of Europe, and 2) DF19 and P312** combined is less frequent in Iberia than the average in the rest of Europe.

Further data may alter the picture; this is just the inference from currently available FTDNA testing.

R.Rocca
08-11-2013, 02:27 AM
Henry had a group of those who had tested negative for both L21 and U152, the old P312* group. I believe this was his Group A. Presumably most of these had taken the former R1b deep clade test. His observation, based on tracking the results, was that 80% of this group, of whatever origin, got positive results when ordering DF27. As he placed probable L238 in a separate group, the remaining 20% were necessarily either DF19 or P312**. Since no DF19 or P312** of Iberian origin have been found yet, that means 100% of those of Iberian origin who were confirmed L21- and U152- got positive results on ordering DF27. This is another way of demonstrating the point I tried to make in the post you quoted above.

As I said before, this does not prove there is no DF19 or P312** in Iberia. It does suggest that 1) DF27 is more common among P312 (XL21,U152) in Iberia than the average in other parts of Europe, and 2) DF19 and P312** combined is less frequent in Iberia than the average in the rest of Europe.

Further data may alter the picture; this is just the inference from currently available FTDNA testing.

With additional samples from subsequent 1KG phases and some of the older samples re-sequenced, the number of DF27+ as a percentage of P312(xU152,L21) is now 98%, so they match the FTDNA testing results. The percentage of DF27 was lower in British and Tuscany P312(xU152,L21) samples, but still the majority.

As for France, I don't know, but I'm assuming the percentage will be very high.

razyn
08-22-2013, 04:35 PM
I've been mostly below the radar for about a month -- am slowly digging my way back up, and I don't want to see this particular thread die on the vine, because it strongly correlates with what I perceive as the main point of doing all this haplogroup mincing and dicing. To me, it appears that Maciamo Hay may be getting a little ahead of the curve, cartographically -- although the per capita ratio of lunatics posting on his forum is high, and some of the best informed persons are posting here (not on Eupedia). His map is accompanied by a much broader discussion -- not only of DF27, but (by scrolling up or down) also of its close phylogenetic relatives under R1b-L11. There's a link within the DF27 discussion that takes one to a digression concerned specifically with the Basques. That leads off into many directions, as usual -- with contributions from some of the wilder theorists now posting anywhere. But Mike W has also participated, and several others who know whereof they speak. (Since Eupedia nicknames often differ from those on other forums, these may include other experts posting here.)

Anyway, it's part of the still-developing R1b-P312-DF27 story, and is worth a look: http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#DF27

Webb
08-23-2013, 02:43 AM
I'm still sticking to my other than Iberia origin for DF27, particularly the Z196 group. I'm patiently waiting for more DF17 guys to take the Geno 2.0 test in order to verify that they are indeed Z274. DF17 is one of the other than Iberia groups, and by carrying Z274 places them splitting off from the north/south cluster somewhere between Z209 and Z196 somewhere outside of Iberia. So Z209 couldn't have been born in Iberia and then traveled to Germany and the Low Countries and still share an upstream ancestor with DF17.

TigerMW
08-23-2013, 03:09 PM
I'm still sticking to my other than Iberia origin for DF27, particularly the Z196 group. I'm patiently waiting for more DF17 guys to take the Geno 2.0 test in order to verify that they are indeed Z274. DF17 is one of the other than Iberia groups, and by carrying Z274 places them splitting off from the north/south cluster somewhere between Z209 and Z196 somewhere outside of Iberia. So Z209 couldn't have been born in Iberia and then traveled to Germany and the Low Countries and still share an upstream ancestor with DF17.

I would never say never as there apparently were some early movements out of Iberia into the core of the continent, but I absolutely agree we need to get more definition out of the early branching, such of Z274, Z209 and Z196. Everyone in the DF27 project has been invited to the following forum and there are 164 members. I invite you to band the SNP testing drum and provide any exploratory suggestions you have.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-DF27-Project/

breckenheimer
08-23-2013, 11:30 PM
I'm still sticking to my other than Iberia origin for DF27, particularly the Z196 group. I'm patiently waiting for more DF17 guys to take the Geno 2.0 test in order to verify that they are indeed Z274. DF17 is one of the other than Iberia groups, and by carrying Z274 places them splitting off from the north/south cluster somewhere between Z209 and Z196 somewhere outside of Iberia. So Z209 couldn't have been born in Iberia and then traveled to Germany and the Low Countries and still share an upstream ancestor with DF17.

Webb, Both
26772 Hart http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?section=ysnp, and
N30509 Brisset http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage,frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=ysnp who tested for DF17/CTS7768 are also positive for Z274 in their Geno 2.0 results.

Webb
08-23-2013, 11:43 PM
Webb, Both
26772 Hart http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-DF27/default.aspx?section=ysnp, and
N30509 Brisset http://www.familytreedna.com/public/frenchheritage,frenchheritage/default.aspx?section=ysnp who tested for DF17/CTS7768 are also positive for Z274 in their Geno 2.0 results.

Thanks. I'll check semargl's website. As the results are posted, I place them in a spreadsheet listing each individuals snps that they have tested positive through the Geno 2.0 test. I started with just the north/south cluster and because of Z274, inadvertently added Hart to my list. That's when I took notice of Z274 being a common snp with DF17 and the north/ south cluster.

Webb
08-24-2013, 12:43 PM
I would never say never as there apparently were some early movements out of Iberia into the core of the continent, but I absolutely agree we need to get more definition out of the early branching, such of Z274, Z209 and Z196. Everyone in the DF27 project has been invited to the following forum and there are 164 members. I invite you to band the SNP testing drum and provide any exploratory suggestions you have.
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/R1b-DF27-Project/

Mikewww, I don't know if you've ever used semargl's website, it takes a month or two for tests to get posted there, but it includes FTDNA and Geno 2.0 results. The best feature is that you can run searches by snp. So I can run a search on Z274 and everyone who has tested positive will show up with their kit#.

razyn
09-04-2013, 07:35 PM
There's a regionally specialized subset of the Genographic project that involves 100 people from Asturias and 100 from County Mayo, publicized recently by Spencer Wells. I assume these are Geno 2 tests. Here's a url for the sketchy story:
https://e.nationalgeographic.com/pub/sf/FormLink?_ri_=X0Gzc2X%3DWQpglLjHJlYQGtCM7jrzghzfMK zad89h1vNAe7Jb1zaYECjzedzfbVXMtX%3DWQpglLjHJlYQGh0 UFeqzbnHAv9zcsjuFDq9LDI5zdq2zcdtG06k&_ei_=EtqJGdqPzpzB1DVNkOeChMw

It's not clear that the selection of these specific subregions had anything to do with each other -- but the Asturias testing in particular might be relevant to this thread, if its data become visible somehow.

Humanist
09-12-2014, 11:04 PM
Here are the two versions we have so far. Richard Rocca produced the first version several months ago. The second version is Maciamo Hay's.

Richard Rocca/U152.org
http://www.u152.org/images/stories/P312_BB_Palmeta_Points_v001.png

Maciamo Hays/Eupedia:
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1b-DF27.gif

Thanks. Was looking around for one of these. The link to Richard's version appears to be dead.

TigerMW
09-13-2014, 02:37 AM
Thanks. Was looking around for one of these. The link to Richard's version appears to be dead.

DF27 is bit of an enigma. My g-grandfather is DF27 North-South cluster which is in the Z220+ subclade. They don't call it North-South for nothing. They are spread all over and the M153 Basque types of Z220 are just a youthful subset.

Webb
09-13-2014, 12:46 PM
DF27 is bit of an enigma. My g-grandfather is DF27 North-South cluster which is in the Z220+ subclade. They don't call it North-South for nothing. They are spread all over and the M153 Basque types of Z220 are just a youthful subset.

I think if Mher turns out to be DF27, it will only add to the enigma. My gut instinct is leaning towards a founder effect in Armenia, particularly if it turns out that there is very little variance, or everyone turns out to belong to the same subtype. However, if there turns out to be multiple types of DF27 present in Armenia then it will just muddle things in regards to DF27 rather than clarifying. DF27 just does not make much sense.

Gray Fox
09-13-2014, 01:22 PM
Crusaders as someone else mentioned are a good candidate, though certainly not the only one.

Gray Fox
09-13-2014, 01:24 PM
I think if Mher turns out to be DF27, it will only add to the enigma. My gut instinct is leaning towards a founder effect in Armenia, particularly if it turns out that there is very little variance, or everyone turns out to belong to the same subtype. However, if there turns out to be multiple types of DF27 present in Armenia then it will just muddle things in regards to DF27 rather than clarifying. DF27 just does not make much sense.

I was thinking Razyn/Dick already confirmed that?

razyn
09-13-2014, 01:29 PM
That's what I think, also. There are three more P312 guys from Mher's hometown in the FTDNA Armenian project, no SNP tests that I know of, but enough STRs present that I'd say they are probably in his subclade too. Others may feel free to dissent.

Webb
09-13-2014, 02:43 PM
I was thinking Razyn/Dick already confirmed that?

I believe he alluded to it. So I was confirming Razyn's confirmation.

ADW_1981
09-13-2014, 02:49 PM
I think if Mher turns out to be DF27, it will only add to the enigma. My gut instinct is leaning towards a founder effect in Armenia, particularly if it turns out that there is very little variance, or everyone turns out to belong to the same subtype. However, if there turns out to be multiple types of DF27 present in Armenia then it will just muddle things in regards to DF27 rather than clarifying. DF27 just does not make much sense.

He is DF27 and shares a node with a German and a Spaniard. If I recall the group of Armenians is close but not extremely close, I think separated by 6 GD at 67 markers. Only 2 of the 4 share the same documented ancestor.

Mher
09-13-2014, 04:58 PM
all 4 mans from Khndzoresk have P312 and general ancetor 800 year