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GoldenHind
11-18-2016, 01:13 AM
Another DF99 identified today, in addition to the one from Sicily above, this one from the P312 SNP pack test, where he tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136. Unlike most of that group, he is negative for FGC16979. He indicates an English origin, and I am reliably advised most of the DF99 in England is S16136+. His ancestral surname appears to be an unusual French personal name which seems to have been introduced to England by the Normans. Obviously that doesn't necessarily indicate a Norman origin. It almost goes without saying that he has the characteristic 12 at DYS389-1.

He is in the P312 project, but has not yet joined the DF99 project, which is not easy to find.

EDIT: He has now joined the DF99 Project. He believes his EKA was born on the Isle of Wight, England, in the late 17th C. Apparently there is an unconfirmed family tradition the family are of French Hugenot origin.

R.Rocca
11-18-2016, 02:26 AM
Thanks for adding him to the DF99 project. I wondered how he managed to find it.

He is the first DF99 in Italy outside of the extreme north of that country. It is tempting to assign a Norman origin to him, as we know DF99 is present in Normandy. I note however that the Vandals were in Trapiani in the 5th C., so that is another possibility. Obviously there are other possibilities. I guess we will need to wait to see where else in Italy DF99 is found.

Though he only has 12 markers, he does have the characteristic 12 at DYS389-1.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the surname?

There was a very large migration from northern Italy to Sicily during the Middle Ages and DF99 seems more common in the Alps than Normandy. So, I think a northern Italian origin is much more likely.

The Sinacori surname is much more common in Sicily than in peninsular Italy.

ChrisR
11-19-2016, 02:42 PM
Do you have any idea of the origin of the surname?
The Sinacori surname is much more common in Sicily than in peninsular Italy.NW Sicily seems the distribution center (http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Sinacori&x=0&y=0). Sinacori possibly is a more ancient form of SenzaCuori which means "WithoutHearts".

GoldenHind
11-19-2016, 07:01 PM
NW Sicily seems the distribution center (http://www.gens.info/italia/it/turismo-viaggi-e-tradizioni-italia?cognome=Sinacori&x=0&y=0). Sinacori possibly is a more ancient form of SenzaCuori which means "WithoutHearts".

Thanks very much. Your map shows the surname is present in northern Italy, where four DF99 have been identified (Liguria, Piedmont, Veneto and an anonymous one from Tuscany). This lends some support to the suggestion by Rich that he may be a descendant of an immigrant from northern Italy in the Middle Ages.

It would be interesting to see if he has any higher level matches, but unfortunately he only has tested 12 markers.

GoldenHind
11-22-2016, 12:33 AM
I have done a bit of research on the difference between the DF99 modal (taken from the P312 and DF99 Projects) and the P312 modal (from Ysearch XQJ7H compiled by Mike W) to answer a question someone asked me.

Of course the really significant difference is at DYS389-1, where virtually all DF99 has a 12 vs. an almost universal 13 for the rest of R1b. DF99 has a modal 28 at 389-2 vs. a 29 for P312, but because of the way it is compiled, this is actually the same.

A few other differences are:

449: DF99 28, P312 29

456: DF99 15, P312 16

446 : DF99 14, P312 13

Because there are only around 70 or so DF99 in the above two projects, their modal could change as the numbers grow. However there is no doubt whatsoever about 389-1= 12 being a significant difference in DF99. Only two related individuals who have tested DF99+ have the P312 modal value of 13 there. Of the four differences, I believe 449 and 456 are relatively fast mutators.

EDIT: It appears FTDNA lists 446 as a fast mutator as well. That leaves only 389-1 as the only slow marker which differs in the modals for DF99 and P312.

GoldenHind
12-06-2016, 12:13 AM
Another DF99+ identified today, from the M343 R1b backbone test. His ancestry doesn't extend beyond the USA, but his surname is English (most frequent in the southern counties, from Kent to Cornwall). This was no surprise as he is a close match at 67 markers to a number of people with different surnames who have tested DF99+. He has FGC16979 on order, as several of his matches have tested positive for that subclade of DF99, and I have no doubt he will be positive for that as well.

GoldenHind
12-24-2016, 08:45 PM
The person referred to in post 501 above has had his Big Y raw data analyzed by Alex W. He and the only other person so far identified as DF99>FGC16982>S16136+ and FGC16979- share a total of 15 SNPs below DF99. Their GD however is 16 at 67 markers. One is of English origin, though possibly originally French, and the other is almost certainly of German or Swiss origin.

There are several more DF99 Big Y orders pending, though most of them are closely related individuals in the FGC16979 group. What remains constant so far is that every DF99 who has done NGS testing falls into one of three subclades directly below DF99: FGC847, FGC16982 and BY3449. To date FGC847 appears to be the least common, while the other two are roughly equal.

GoldenHind
12-29-2016, 12:36 AM
Another DF99 has joined the project. I was very interested to see that he has a Spanish surname. On checking he is a 66/67 match to three different people named Fimbres, who are his only matches at 67 markers. Two of his Fimbres matches have tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979. I contacted him and he tells me his great-grandfather has an unknown origin but was living in Arizona in the late 19 C. He was always considered to be a Yaqui Indian, so he was quite surprised by his DF99+ result, as well as his close matches to the Fimbres family. He now has FGC16979 on order.

The Fimbres have been documented to be descended from a 17th C Flemish cloth merchant who took his business to Bilbao in Spain (where he had another Flemish partner named de Winthysen). From Spain the Fimbres family ultimately went to those northern parts of Mexico which were ceded to the USA after the Mexican-American war. Other members of the family crossed the Channel to England, presumably as part of the large influx of Flemings to England. This was discussed (with permission) in post 99 on page 10 of this thread.

An interesting sidelight is this new member and the two DF99+ Fimbres are the only three among the over 70 plus DF99 so far identified who have the P312 modal of 13 at DYS389-1. All the rest of them have the distinctive 12 there. There seems to be general agreement that the new member is genetically a Fimbres.

Despite some tantalizing hints that DF99 may be present in Spain, we still don't have a concrete example, despite a large number of samples of Iberian origin in the FTDNA database and the 1KG project. My best guess is that some will eventually turn up, but that DF99 will prove to be extremely rare there.

GoldenHind
01-05-2017, 12:40 AM
I recently came across someone who tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979 in the Big Y. He is not in either the P312 or DF99 projects. I have emailed him twice requesting he join those projects, and suggesting he make his raw data available to Alex W. for analysis. I never received any response. I never know whether this is due to privacy concerns (if so, why make their results public?) or if my emails go into their spam files and are never read. In this case the person has a Welsh surname but ancestry only to the USA in the 19th C.

There is another family with similar Big Y results who withdrew from the P312 project before their Big Y results came in, and never rejoined. In this case it is an English surname, and he also has never responded to my emails.

I find this all very frustrating!

GoldenHind
01-10-2017, 07:48 PM
Another DF99 in today. He is a 5/111 match to the person mentioned in post 501 above, and is a descendant of a very early immigrant to the USA from England. This is the same surname as that of Winston Churchill's American maternal grandfather, who may well be descended from the same immigrant.

He is in the P312 project, and I will ask him to join the DF99 project as well.

GoldenHind
01-13-2017, 06:38 PM
A very interesting DF99>FGC16979+ Big Y result in today which should answer the question of whether DF99 is present in Iberia. He is a Brazilian with ancestry from Portugal. I haven't been in contact with him yet, but I will post more information once I have it.

EDIT: At this point I can only say he has the characteristic 12 at 389-1, and while he has 111 markers, he has no matches whatsoever above 12 markers, and only a very few at 12.

TigerMW
01-13-2017, 07:23 PM
A very interesting DF99>FGC16979+ Big Y result in today which should answer the question of whether DF99 is present in Iberia. He is a Brazilian with ancestry from Portugal. I haven't been in contact with him yet, but I will post more information once I have it.
I transferred him over from the R1b project. This is new information in terms of location.
I'm starting to realize the potential in the "Dutch model" for the Bell Beakers but that is hard to make work in toto too.

GoldenHind
01-16-2017, 10:40 PM
I discovered a DF99>FGC16979 today from a Big Y test. He has a Scottish surname and indicates an origin in Scotland, though apparently only has ancestry to the USA. According to Reaney his surname means a foreign Briton amongst the Gaels. I checked the surname DNA project and he appears to be a singleton. Oddly enough, most members of the surname project in question are U106. Another interesting aspect is that his four 67 marker matches includes one English surname, two who list their origin as Germany, and another with an apparent German surname. He does have the DF99 characteristic 12 at 389-1, as well as as 15 at 456 and 14 at 446, which are modal for DF99 (as opposed to respectively 16 and 15, which are modal values for P312).

He has now joined the DF99 project. He has also already submitted his raw data to Alex for analysis.

This is only the second DF99 with Scottish origins, though the other one does not have a Gaelic surname.

GoldenHind
01-21-2017, 11:07 PM
A very interesting DF99>FGC16979+ Big Y result in today which should answer the question of whether DF99 is present in Iberia. He is a Brazilian with ancestry from Portugal. I haven't been in contact with him yet, but I will post more information once I have it.

EDIT: At this point I can only say he has the characteristic 12 at 389-1, and while he has 111 markers, he has no matches whatsoever above 12 markers, and only a very few at 12.

This person has been contacted both by me in English and in Portuguese by another DF99 project member, but neither of us has been able to get much information from him.

GoldenHind
01-26-2017, 07:05 PM
Another DF99 with German origins in today from the M343 test. He has ancestry from the Duchy of Nassau in the Rhineland area.

TricoloRJ
01-28-2017, 11:38 AM
Yes, I'm the person who you are talking about. I sent my *.csv to you by email. Please consider inform any information you discover. Best Regards.

GoldenHind
02-07-2017, 01:35 AM
Yes, I'm the person who you are talking about. I sent my *.csv to you by email. Please consider inform any information you discover. Best Regards.

Welcome and thanks very much. However we still need your vcf file so Alex can compare your results with the others the others.

GoldenHind
02-07-2017, 01:45 AM
Another new DF99+ in today. This one was entirely predictable from both STRs and matches. He only has ancestry to the USA in the 19th century, but believes the family came to the USA from Britain. The surname does not appear to be English in origin. The world surname profiler shows it is primarily found in Belgium and in the counties along the Channel coast in England. My guess is the surname is most likely of Flemish origin, but perhaps went to England from Flanders in one of the many such migrations over the centuries.

GoldenHind
02-11-2017, 06:23 PM
The FTDNA DF99 Project has now reached 75 members. There are also around a dozen or so confirmed DF99+ in the P312 Project who have yet to join the DF99 Project, as well as an unknown number who are in neither project.

TricoloRJ
02-25-2017, 12:12 AM
Welcome and thanks very much. However we still need your vcf file so Alex can compare your results with the others the others.

I would send by email. please inform how can I do it. Regards.

GoldenHind
02-25-2017, 08:34 PM
I would send by email. please inform how can I do it. Regards.

Excellent. We don't need your BAM file, just the vcf file. I will send you an email with step by step instructions on how to do this.

GoldenHind
02-27-2017, 07:59 PM
FTDNA considerably expanded their tree below DF99 last week. Presumably this is based on an analysis of recent Big Y results. Almost all of the new ones are BY series SNPs. I am trying to get details concerning them at the moment to compare against Alex W's DF99 tree.

andywxman
03-01-2017, 05:31 AM
FTDNA considerably expanded their tree below DF99 last week. Presumably this is based on an analysis of recent Big Y results. Almost all of the new ones are BY series SNPs. I am trying to get details concerning them at the moment to compare against Alex W's DF99 tree.

Interesting... i was going to order BY15507 but i can't seem to find a way to do so.

castle3
03-01-2017, 06:00 AM
Interesting... i was going to order BY15507 but i can't seem to find a way to do so.

I don't know if this helps. but when I tied to order SNP R-Z30600 for my HG, I couldn't find R-Z30600. I then tried Z30600 with no joy, then found it as 30600. Try dropping the letters when searching for yours.

GoldenHind
03-01-2017, 09:31 PM
Interesting... i was going to order BY15507 but i can't seem to find a way to do so.

I have confirmed that someone at FTDNA has been going through the Big Y results of DF99+ men looking for downstream novel SNPs shared by two or more people. These have now been added to their DF99 tree. Most if not all of these appear on Alex W.'s DF99 tree under their chromosome position numbers rather than the new BY numbers.

It doesn't appear to me that they are currently offering individual testing for these new SNPs outside of the Big Y. I don't know if they plan on doing so in the near future. I will ask them and post their answer here.

EDIT: I see you managed to place the order BY15507 after all, despite the fact it and the other new SNPs on the tree don't have an "Add" box next to it. I hope I was wrong and separate orders for all of them are now available. Please tell us how you did it.

andywxman
03-02-2017, 02:48 AM
I have confirmed that someone at FTDNA has been going through the Big Y results of DF99+ men looking for downstream novel SNPs shared by two or more people. These have now been added to their DF99 tree. Most if not all of these appear on Alex W.'s DF99 tree under their chromosome position numbers rather than the new BY numbers.

It doesn't appear to me that they are currently offering individual testing for these new SNPs outside of the Big Y. I don't know if they plan on doing so in the near future. I will ask them and post their answer here.

EDIT: I see you managed to place the order BY15507 after all, despite the fact it and the other new SNPs on the tree don't have an "Add" box next to it. I hope I was wrong and separate orders for all of them are now available. Please tell us how you did it.


I hope that it's the right one... i went to Advanced and searched for Y15507

GoldenHind
03-03-2017, 12:02 AM
I hope that it's the right one... i went to Advanced and searched for Y15507

As I told you by email, the best I can tell from Ybrowse (which I am not very handy with), BY15507 is a different SNP than Y15507. Let us know what FTDNA has to say.

andywxman
03-06-2017, 07:40 PM
Thanks for contacting us. You're right, Y15507 and BY15507 are different SNPs. I've cancelled your order for Y15507, but BY15507 is not available as an individual test. I'm issuing you a full refund for the Y15507 SNP test that you ordered. You will be credited $39 back to the card you used to pay for this test within the next 7 business days.

Theconqueror
03-13-2017, 04:39 PM
Am I the only one that stumbled upon this SNP map of DF99 on FTDNA? It looks like the size of the dots are much bigger in Sweden. Any new insights on DF99 origin distribution?

14513

Torc Seanathair
03-13-2017, 04:54 PM
I had browsed for that map before , but don't remember it showing those clusters. Some of those are very interesting - Normandy, Calais, Sicily, Switzerland, ...

MitchellSince1893
03-13-2017, 04:54 PM
Am I the only one that stumbled upon this SNP map of DF99 on FTDNA? It looks like the size of the dots are much bigger in Sweden. Any new insights on DF99 origin distribution?

14513

It's just a map distortion on dot sizes. The further north the bigger the dots.

Theconqueror
03-13-2017, 05:49 PM
Yes it is interesting. I am just not sure what it means. There is only two selections: SNP, and cluster size, which is only the overall area on the map. There is no mention of what the size of each dot means, although in mapping terms it should represent the number of DF99 individuals in a specific location. If this is true, then there are more DF99 in Sweden than anywhere else.


I had browsed for that map before , but don't remember it showing those clusters. Some of those are very interesting - Normandy, Calais, Sicily, Switzerland, ...

Theconqueror
03-13-2017, 05:50 PM
It could be but why?


It's just a map distortion on dot sizes. The further north the bigger the dots.

MitchellSince1893
03-13-2017, 05:59 PM
It could be but why?

Because of the inherent distortion in mercator map projection. The closer to the poles the larger the object.

14515

The dots on the DF99 map get bigger as you go north. Sicily has smallest, Sweden has biggest.

GoldenHind
03-13-2017, 07:24 PM
Am I the only one that stumbled upon this SNP map of DF99 on FTDNA? It looks like the size of the dots are much bigger in Sweden. Any new insights on DF99 origin distribution?

14513

I don't know why. but this map is missing ancestral locations of a number of people who have tested DF99+. For example Moscow, SE Poland, northern Ireland and at least one or two in England. I suspect the map looks at terminal SNPs only, and excludes those who have a terminal SNP below DF99. I suggest looking at the map on the DF99 project and selecting the "all" option, which includes all of those in the project who have tested positive for DF99 and have entered a geographic location for their EKA. This doesn't include a few in the P312 Project DF99 section who haven't joined the DF99 project.

Neither of those alters the overall pattern in the map you show: they are just fill in the area in question.

I am hopeful that when the long awaited ancient DNA from the Bell beakers is finally released, they may shed some light on the origin. My current hypothesis for its spread is along the north European plain.

Theconqueror
03-14-2017, 03:38 PM
I would be more interested to know about Corded Ware culture and its relevance for DF99.


I don't know why. but this map is missing ancestral locations of a number of people who have tested DF99+. For example Moscow, SE Poland, northern Ireland and at least one or two in England. I suspect the map looks at terminal SNPs only, and excludes those who have a terminal SNP below DF99. I suggest looking at the map on the DF99 project and selecting the "all" option, which includes all of those in the project who have tested positive for DF99 and have entered a geographic location for their EKA. This doesn't include a few in the P312 Project DF99 section who haven't joined the DF99 project.

Neither of those alters the overall pattern in the map you show: they are just fill in the area in question.

I am hopeful that when the long awaited ancient DNA from the Bell beakers is finally released, they may shed some light on the origin. My current hypothesis for its spread is along the north European plain.

GoldenHind
03-14-2017, 06:00 PM
I would be more interested to know about Corded Ware culture and its relevance for DF99.

I believe that to date no P312 of any type has been found in a CW context, while it has been found in BB. Of course that could change in the future. I certainly wouldn't rule out a possible connection with CW for at least a portion of DF99.

There were eastern Beaker settlements in what is now Poland, which apparently reached the southern shore of the Baltic. They may have spread to the west and north at some point, where they may been incorporated into the area of the expanding Jastorf culture. A further expansion could have occurred during the Migration Era. Such a scenario could explain what we currently know of the distribution of DF99.

However this is highly speculative and I think there are other scenarios which are also possible.

GoldenHind
03-27-2017, 05:54 PM
Last week I stumbled across a new DF99+ individual who is in neither the P312 nor the DF99 project. From his name and email address I suspect him to be a German national. I have attempted to contact him, so far without success.

TigerMW
03-27-2017, 06:22 PM
Last week I stumbled across a new DF99+ individual who is in neither the P312 nor the DF99 project. From his name and email address I suspect him to be a German national. I have attempted to contact him, so far without success.
Is he in any R1b project or in the Germany project?

GoldenHind
03-27-2017, 06:50 PM
Is he in any R1b project or in the Germany project?

I have not been able to find him in either of those, although as you know since some people keep their results private or don't post an ancestral surname, it isn't always possible to identify individuals on public websites. I did find what appears to be a German national with that surname on Ysearch, but his markers don't suggest he is likely to be DF99.

I will send you his name; perhaps you would be willing to check your projects for me.

GoldenHind
03-30-2017, 07:52 PM
I have discovered yet another unidentified person who has tested DF99+ and is not a member of either the DF99 or P312 Projects. This one is only listed by his initials, and I know nothing else about him. Like the previous example (post 538 above), he tested with Igenea. They are based in Switzerland, although the actual testing is performed by FTDNA, and they are entered in the FTDNA database. It appears they can only be contacted through Igenea, and for some reason I have had no success with contacting any of them. Perhaps the company doesn't forward the emails on.

R.Rocca
03-31-2017, 07:45 PM
I have discovered yet another unidentified person who has tested DF99+ and is not a member of either the DF99 or P312 Projects. This one is only listed by his initials, and I know nothing else about him. Like the previous example (post 538 above), he tested with Igenea. They are based in Switzerland, although the actual testing is performed by FTDNA, and they are entered in the FTDNA database. It appears they can only be contacted through Igenea, and for some reason I have had no success with contacting any of them. Perhaps the company doesn't forward the emails on.

It may be that they send some but not others, but without a doubt I have gotten replies back from testers through Igenea.

GoldenHind
04-06-2017, 06:35 PM
Another new DF99 in. His ancestry only goes to the USA (North Carolina, Virginia), but he has a distinctly English surname. His DF99 status was entirely predictable from STRs and matches. Fortunately I am in contact with this one, and have requested he join the DF99 project.

GoldenHind
04-15-2017, 05:15 PM
Another new DF99 in. His ancestry only goes to the USA (North Carolina, Virginia), but he has a distinctly English surname. His DF99 status was entirely predictable from STRs and matches. Fortunately I am in contact with this one, and have requested he join the DF99 project.

This person has now joined the DF99 Project.

GoldenHind
04-19-2017, 08:11 PM
One of the DF99 project members got positive results for the FGC847 subclade in the Big Y today. I suspect he is also positive for FGC864, which is below FGC847, but unfortunately not on the FTDNA tree. I ahve requested he submit his raw data to Alex W for analysis. This family apparently stems from Warwickshire. So far the FGC847 subclade is primarily English, but it also includes someone of German origin as well as our Russian Moscow Boyar descendant.

TigerMW
04-19-2017, 08:16 PM
One of the DF99 project members got positive results for the FGC847 subclade in the Big Y today. I suspect he is also positive for FGC864, which is below FGC847, but unfortunately not on the FTDNA tree. I ahve requested he submit his raw data to Alex W for analysis. This family apparently stems from Warwickshire. So far the FGC847 subclade is primarily English, but it also includes someone of German origin as well as our Russian Moscow Boyar descendant.
Very good!
If you now have two people that are FGC864+ and you also have an FG847+ FGC864- person out here somewhere you can get FGC864 added to the haplotree. Just email Michael Sager with the kit #s of the three people.

GoldenHind
04-19-2017, 11:10 PM
Assuming the new FGC847+ is in fact FGC846+ as well, we actually will have four FGC847>FGC864 examples and one FGC847+FGC864- sample. However two of the former got their FGC864+ result from outside of FTDNA: one from FullGenomes and one from YSEQ. The FGC864- example is from the 1KG project. This is because FTDNA does offer testing for FGC864 outside of the Big Y. I doubt FTDNA will recognize those results. However if the new person agrees to submit his raw data to Alex W. and is found to be FGC864+ (he definitely matches a very strong STR signature with those in the FGC864+ group), I will indeed contact Mr. Sager to see what he can do. I also note though that he identified and named several new SNPs from other DF99 subclades from Big Y tests, and they still do not appear on FTDNA's tree and they still do not offer testing for them.

andywxman
04-27-2017, 11:53 PM
It's been a while since I did a PCA analysis of the DF99 group on FTDNA.

The numbers correspond to the number on the row number on the FTDNA table. I did it for members that had done 67 Markers or more.

Me (#44) is still hanging out in no mans land with no close matches!

15463

Theconqueror
05-11-2017, 11:59 PM
It's been a while since I did a PCA analysis of the DF99 group on FTDNA.

The numbers correspond to the number on the row number on the FTDNA table. I did it for members that had done 67 Markers or more.

Me (#44) is still hanging out in no mans land with no close matches!

15463

great stuff, you should include 37 or more, then i would be part of it!

GoldenHind
05-12-2017, 02:05 PM
Better yet, you or one of your surname group should upgrade to 67 markers!

GoldenHind
05-12-2017, 02:08 PM
Another DF99 in, one long suspected to be DF99+ from his STR markers and matches. He tested FGC16979 in the P312 SNP pack. This appears to be the most common DF99 variety in England, although it is also known to be present in Flanders.

Roaring
05-14-2017, 05:09 PM
Another DF99 in, one long suspected to be DF99+ from his STR markers and matches. He tested FGC16979 in the P312 SNP pack. This appears to be the most common DF99 variety in England, although it is also known to be present in Flanders.

What about a new paper on Bell Beakers? Anything interesting for DF-99? As far as i understand we should most likely look for ancient DF99 among them.

Dewsloth
05-14-2017, 06:41 PM
What about a new paper on Bell Beakers? Anything interesting for DF-99? As far as i understand we should most likely look for ancient DF99 among them.

There are a bunch of samples in the recent papers that were just called P312. I'm hoping further analysis (and new discoveries, of course) will show some to be DF19 and DF99. Can't let L21 and U152 have all the fun.;)

Roaring
05-14-2017, 08:17 PM
There are a bunch of samples in the recent papers that were just called P312. I'm hoping further analysis (and new discoveries, of course) will show some to be DF19 and DF99. Can't let L21 and U152 have all the fun.;)

As far as i understand we don't yet know of any more or less ancient DF99?

GoldenHind
05-15-2017, 12:22 PM
Unfortunately I am away from home for a while and have only sporadic internet access, so I can't answer any of the above questions. I would expect early DF99 to be found among Bell Beaker, but Corded Ware and Globular Amphora Culture are also possibilities. I was afraid there would be some P312(XL21,U152) results which weren't tested to the level of the other P312 subclades DF99, DF19, L238, etc., and so not entirely helpful to us. If and when I get a handle on it I will report on it here.

EDIT: I'm told Globular Amphora can be ruled out as it was devoid of any P312.

GoldenHind
05-15-2017, 12:25 PM
Another DF99 in, one long suspected to be DF99+ from his STR markers and matches. He tested FGC16979 in the P312 SNP pack. This appears to be the most common DF99 variety in England, although it is also known to be present in Flanders.

Since it is too late to edit this post, I will add the following. I should have mentioned that the FGC16979 subclade of DF99 also contains people with ancestry from Italy (Tuscany), Portugal, Wales and Germany.

GoldenHind
05-15-2017, 12:44 PM
great stuff, you should include 37 or more, then i would be part of it!

Apologies for my earlier reply. It appears one of your surname group does have 67 markers. I assume he is no. 27 on Andy's chart.

andywxman
05-17-2017, 01:07 AM
I realized that my graph caused confusion as the row numbers on FTDNA change when members are added or dropped... here is a table that matches my graph

Row Number Kit Number
1 441960
2 248700
3 N113736
4 175392
5 133095
6 94821
7 213585
8 N47076
9 N114363
10 N47555
11 B6530
12 506888
13 222329
14 267370
15 251215
16 226388
17 N64856
18 252354
19 B48213
20 312219
21 361977
22 N118013
23 449494
24 39244
25 328344
26 E13368
27 219050
28 69514
29 92458
30 479402
31 494551
32 395054
33 551969
34 160082
35 192606
36 464502
37 93823
38 309454
39 28934
40 27064
41 99385
42 326703
43 123803
44 167399
45 118045
46 216789
47 B4732
48 22627
49 162230
50 440829
51 272715
52 29073
53 235824
54 396503
55 15260
56 321394
57 325133
58 95543
59 60656
60 N35880
61 159818
62 214571
63 285565
64 366557
65 N11571
66 244991
67 21572
68 309525
69 20092
70 531528
71 323935
72 159178
73 110476
74 B10054
75 415839
76 330524
77 510187

GoldenHind
05-18-2017, 11:35 AM
Two additional DF99+ in today. One from Tuscany and another of English origin. The Italian has no matches above 25 markers, and most of those at that level are English. He continues the pattern of DF99 in northern Italy.

The one of English origin, who has tested DF99>FGC847 in the Big Y, is a same surname match with others in the DF99 project, but has not yet joined it.

TigerMW
05-18-2017, 12:43 PM
Two additional DF99+ in today. One from Tuscany and another of English origin. The Italian has no matches above 25 markers, and most of those at that level are English. He continues the pattern of DF99 in northern Italy.

The one of English origin, who has tested DF99>FGC847 in the Big Y, is a same surname match with others in the DF99 project, but has not yet joined it.
I joined the one from the R1b All Subclades project. Is the other in that project? If so, I can help. If you would like, go ahead and look for any DF99+ there. Are the haplogroup labels working correctly or do we need to update the FTDNA haplotree?

The geographic diversity of DF99 is something else!

GoldenHind
05-27-2017, 12:17 PM
An interesting new DF99>FGC847 in from the Big Y. He has an English surname and lists his EKA as a tenant-in-chief of numerous manors in the time of William the Conqueror. I will contact him to ask him to join the DF99 project.

There are now three recent DF99>FGC847 results from the Big Y. Previously FGC847 appeared to have been the least common subclade of DF99. When I'm back home again, I will contact all three to ask they send their raw data to Alex W for analysis.

Torc Seanathair
06-02-2017, 12:18 PM
And these three are FGC864-?

GoldenHind
06-04-2017, 10:44 AM
And these three are FGC864-?

I believe all three are FGC864+, but since it isn't yet on the FTDNA tree (I have requested they add it), I need to check their Big Y results by chromosome number when I return home next week.

GoldenHind
06-08-2017, 10:19 PM
I have now confirmed that all three of the recent Big Y DF99>FGC847 are also FGC864+. FGC864 is not yet on FTDNA's tree, though I have requested they add it. However I have checked the Big Y results of the three, and all three show 14209332 as G-A, which is what constitutes FGC864. The only known FGC847+ who is FGC864- is the anonymous Peruvian from the 1KG project.

GoldenHind
06-12-2017, 10:09 PM
All three of the recent DF99>FGC847>FGC864 have now joined the DF99 project. Unfortunately two of them do not appear on the public website, presumably due to their privacy settings. I will see if I can get them to change that.

Theconqueror
06-14-2017, 11:46 AM
I have now confirmed that all three of the recent Big Y DF99>FGC847 are also FGC864+. FGC864 is not yet on FTDNA's tree, though I have requested they add it. However I have checked the Big Y results of the three, and all three show 14209332 as G-A, which is what constitutes FGC864. The only known FGC847+ who is FGC864- is the anonymous Peruvian from the 1KG project.

Any other snps that are definitive under DF99?

GoldenHind
06-15-2017, 11:52 PM
Any other snps that are definitive under DF99?

I'm not entirely certain what you mean by definitive.

Virtually everything we know about the substructure of DF99 at the moment comes from the SNP analysis by Alex W of 23 DF99 individuals (two or three more should be added very soon). These include 19 Big Y tests, 2 who did similar testing at Full Genomes Corp, and 2 anonymous samples from the 1000 Genomes Project (one from Lima, Peru, who may or may not be of Spanish origin, and the other from Tuscany in Italy.

Alex's DF99 chart may be seen on his website. Note this only includes those 23 samples who have done NGS testing.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=186


To date all 23 fall into one of three DF99 subclades. These are:

FGC847

FGC16982

BY3450

Each of the three subclades above is known to have a further substructure defined by additional SNPs, as shown on Alex's chart. A few of these are offered for individual testing or in the P312 SNP pack by FTDNA. I am hopeful that additional DF99 SNPs will be available for testing soon.

As there are many who have not yet tested beyond DF99, it is possible that there are other DF99 subclades as well, but I think that is unlikely.

To date only one SNP has been found between DF99 and the above three subclades. All DF99+ men are positive for it. This is Z29643. If this holds up, it indicates that the three DF99 subclades came into existence very soon after DF99 itself.

Another interesting fact is that all of the three DF99 subclades appears to be multinational. FGC847 includes examples from England, Russia and Germany. FGC16982 includes England, Wales, Flanders, Germany, Italy, Portugal and possibly Scotland and France. BY3450 includes Italy, Germany, England and Poland. However despite its very widespread presence, there seems to be little doubt that the concentration of DF99 is in England and Germany. Of course this could change as further data becomes available.

Dewsloth
06-16-2017, 12:27 AM
To date only one SNP has been found between P312 and DF99, for which all DF99+ men are also positive. This is Z29643. If this holds up, it indicates that the three DF99 subclades came into existence very soon after DF99 itself.

Another interesting fact is that all of the three DF99 subclades appears to be multinational. FGC847 includes examples from England, Russia and Germany. FGC16982 includes England, Wales, Flanders, Germany, Italy, Portugal and possibly Scotland and France. BY3450 includes Italy, Germany, England and Poland. However despite its very widespread presence, there seems to be little doubt that the concentration of DF99 is in England and Germany. Of course this could change as further data becomes available.

It's funny how DF19 and DF99 have roughly the same shape in the "All" maps for their FTDNA groups. DF19 doesn't have the extra SNP between P312, but it has two main groups (DF88 and Z302) soon after and also one family that is neither. Both large DF19 subclades stretch from Germany to Britain/Ireland with members in Scandinavia, and the other (non DF88 or Z302) family is English.

I suspect the P312 cousins were travelling together. ;)

GoldenHind
06-18-2017, 01:47 AM
What about a new paper on Bell Beakers? Anything interesting for DF-99? As far as i understand we should most likely look for ancient DF99 among them.

I have now looked into this and can provide some information. None of the recently published ancient DNA of Bell Beakers tested DF99+. However there were several who were only tested to P312+. I gather that eventually the BAM files may be made public, which will allow the SNP sleuths to run their computer programs through the data to see if any P312 subclades can be identified or inferred.

There is a fair amount of both direct and circumstantial evidence which suggests P312 and its subclades spread through Europe with the Bell Beakers. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that part or all of DF99 may have been present in the Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture, though at this point there is virtually no evidence to support that. There is another thread on this forum which suggests P312 may have have split off from Corded Ware to form the Beaker Culture.

Roaring
06-18-2017, 03:33 PM
I have now looked into this and can provide some information. None of the recently published ancient DNA of Bell Beakers tested DF99+. However there were several who were only tested to P312+. I gather that eventually the BAM files may be made public, which will allow the SNP sleuths to run their computer programs through the data to see if any P312 subclades can be identified or inferred.

There is a fair amount of both direct and circumstantial evidence which suggests P312 and its subclades spread through Europe with the Bell Beakers. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that part or all of DF99 may have been present in the Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture, though at this point there is virtually no evidence to support that. There is another thread on this forum which suggests P312 may have have split off from Corded Ware to form the Beaker Culture.

Thanks, as far as i understand DF-99 still correlates mainly with Germanic expansion based on information we have now?

GoldenHind
06-18-2017, 06:01 PM
That appears to be the case to me, based on the currently available data, though with the caveat of "mainly." DF99 has been found primarily in Germanic language countries, and appears to be sparse to non-existent outside those countries. Ireland is an excellent example. It is undoubtedly the most represented country of origin in the FTDNA database, yet the only two DF99 found with an origin in Ireland to date are two Ulster examples who are undoubtedly of English origin. However there certainly an element of DF99 in Wales. So I don't think one can rule out some presence of DF99 in pre-Anglo-Saxon Celtic England.

Italy is another example. To date, with one exception from Sicily, DF99 has been found only in the far north of that country, an area of heavy settlement by Germanic people after the collapse of Rome. The one exception in Sicily may well be an immigrant from the north during the 19C. I think if DF99 was equally distributed throughout all of Italy, some evidence to that effect would have turned up by now.

France is another example. To date DF99 is only found on the northern and eastern fringes, Normandy and Savoy.

This leads me to suspect that much if not all of DF99 was incorporated at an early date into the Jastorf culture. There are various ways this could have occurred. One is that DF99 may have been absorbed into Jastorf from Hallstatt Celts. Or DF99 may have been the descendants of Bell Beakers living in what is now northern Poland. Or both.

Until we have further evidence, the origin and early spread of DF99 remains a mystery.

GoldenHind
06-19-2017, 05:32 PM
Another new DF99+ of German origin in today from the M343 test. Ancestry from Baden. He has joined the DF99 Project, but he does not appear in the public website results, presumably due ti his privacy settings.

TigerMW
06-20-2017, 02:59 AM
I have now looked into this and can provide some information. None of the recently published ancient DNA of Bell Beakers tested DF99+. However there were several who were only tested to P312+. I gather that eventually the BAM files may be made public, which will allow the SNP sleuths to run their computer programs through the data to see if any P312 subclades can be identified or inferred.

There is a fair amount of both direct and circumstantial evidence which suggests P312 and its subclades spread through Europe with the Bell Beakers. I wouldn't however rule out the possibility that part or all of DF99 may have been present in the Battle Axe/Corded Ware culture, though at this point there is virtually no evidence to support that. There is another thread on this forum which suggests P312 may have have split off from Corded Ware to form the Beaker Culture.
I want to add a little more specification about the Bell Beakers. There were different regional groups and phases. It is the East Bell Beakers during the 2500-2100 BC period that seem to be particularly important to the expansion of P312 and possibly U106 too. If DF99 was not in the East Bell Beaker mix it would appear that P312 itself sprung out of Corded Ware or the Danubian Yamnaya. DF19 and L238 might have also trended north more so than west like much of P312.

GoldenHind
06-22-2017, 07:29 PM
Some good news. After some lobbying with FTDNA, they have agreed to make FGC864 available for testing as a single order. The cost is the same as most other individual SNP tests, $39. FGC864 is known is to beneath FGC847, which forms one of three subclades of DF99. It is known that the anonymous sample from Peru in the 1000 Genomes Project is DF99>FGC847+ but negative for FGC864, which appears to divide that subclade. I strongly urge those who have tested DF99>FGC847+ but haven't tested for FGC864 to order it.

andywxman
06-24-2017, 01:12 AM
Still no R-BY15507 single test available.

GoldenHind
07-09-2017, 05:00 PM
Still no R-BY15507 single test available.

I will see if anything can be done to make it available outside of the Big Y.

TigerMW
07-09-2017, 09:42 PM
Still no R-BY15507 single test available.
Some project admin, any project admin, can "Request" an SNP for Sanger Sequencing/Advanced Tests single SNP ordering. In the GAP tool for project admins, you must go to the genetic reports and then to Y DNA SNP reports where you will see the blue "Request an SNP" button on the top.

Telfermagne
07-15-2017, 02:31 AM
Put in an order for FGC864, so we shall see what happens next over the next few weeks.

GoldenHind
07-25-2017, 06:21 PM
There is an interesting development regarding the newly available FGC864, which appeared to divide the FGC847 subclade of DF99. Two results came in today for FGC864 for individuals who have previously tested positive for FGC847. One was positive, the other negative. The positive result was the the DF99 from Moscow. The negative result was for someone with ancestry from central Germany (near Göttingen). Previously everyone who had tested FGC847+ was also positive for FGC864, with the exception of the anonymous Peruvian from the 1000 Genomes Project. So now we have proof that FGC864 does indeed divide the FGC847 subclade into at least two parts.

GoldenHind
07-26-2017, 10:22 PM
Still no R-BY15507 single test available.

I have requested FTDNA make individual testing for BY15505 available, and I believe it will be soon.

GoldenHind
07-28-2017, 03:10 AM
Another new DF99 today from the latest round of R1b backbone tests. His ancestry is from Luxembourg, where the surname is not uncommon. The surname is also found in Holland, especially around Utrecht, as well as in England, especially in East Anglia. According to Reaney the surname in England derives from an Old English (i.e. Anglo-Saxon) word for warrior. It is also present at a low rate throughout Germany.

GoldenHind
07-29-2017, 12:08 AM
Another new DF99 today from the latest round of R1b backbone tests. His ancestry is from Luxembourg, where the surname is not uncommon. The surname is also found in Holland, especially around Utrecht, as well as in England, especially in East Anglia. According to Reaney the surname in England derives from an Old English (i.e. Anglo-Saxon) word for warrior. It is also present at a low rate throughout Germany.

I have now been in touch with him and he says there is an unconfirmed family tradition that the family were originally English and fled to Luxembourg during the reign of Henry VIII due to their Catholic faith.

GoldenHind
07-30-2017, 06:49 PM
I have now been in touch with him and he says there is an unconfirmed family tradition that the family were originally English and fled to Luxembourg during the reign of Henry VIII due to their Catholic faith.

On the other hand, I note this family tradition is unconfirmed and that his closest match (62/67) is to someone who lives in Zurich and gives the location of his EKA as Baden in Germany.

GoldenHind
08-06-2017, 12:10 AM
Another DF99+ in today from the M343 R1b backbone test. He has an English surname derived from an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) personal name, and appears to have ancestry to somewhere in the East Midlands (Northamptonshire?) in the late 17C. He hasn't joined the DF99 project yet.

TigerMW
08-06-2017, 01:44 PM
Another DF99+ in today from the M343 R1b backbone test. He has an English surname derived from an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) personal name, and appears to have ancestry to somewhere in the East Midlands (Northamptonshire?) in the late 17C. He hasn't joined the DF99 project yet.
I joined him to the R-P312 project so you should be able to contact him.

GoldenHind
08-06-2017, 06:04 PM
Another DF99+ in today from the M343 R1b backbone test. He has an English surname derived from an Old English (Anglo-Saxon) personal name, and appears to have ancestry to somewhere in the East Midlands (Northamptonshire?) in the late 17C. He hasn't joined the DF99 project yet.

He has now joined the DF99 Project, but like several others, his privacy settings prevent him from appearing on the public project website.

His surname appears to be very localized in England, primarily in the Northamptonshire-Peterborough area, with a smaller cluster around Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight.

GoldenHind
08-07-2017, 04:36 AM
Another DF99+ result today from the R1b backbone test, which has been a real boon for the DF99 subclade. This one has an Anglicized German surname with ancestry to the 19C in Prussia. For those skeptics who suspect such examples are self-deluding Germanic warrior "wannabees," this individual has a 67 marker match with someone who retains the original German version of the surname and looks to be a German or possibly a Swiss national.

Theconqueror
08-10-2017, 11:40 AM
So what should we conclude at this point? Is DF99 completely of germanic stock?

GoldenHind
08-12-2017, 09:03 PM
So what should we conclude at this point? Is DF99 completely of germanic stock?

This is a very difficult question to answer. I have never supported the belief that it is possible to identify ancient SNPs like P312 or DF99 exclusively with Iron Age cultures (such as Germanics or Celts) that did not develop until a thousand or two thousand years later. There were trading routes in Europe during the Bronze Age, and I think it is probable there was a lot movement around Europe during that period within the R1b-M269 haplogroup.

I do think we have enough data now to say that the primary portion of the DF99 subclade is associated with the Germanic people. DF99 is largely absent from the areas which are primarily of Celtic stock. For example, Ireland is undoubtedly more represented in the FTDNA database than any other country, yet the only two DF99 samples found there to date are from Ulster and undoubtedly families of English origin. The one exception is Wales. DF99 is undoubtedly present there, though does not appear to be an important segment of Welsh DNA. When U106 is found in Wales in people with Welsh surnames, the response from many has been that they are descendants of Anglo-Saxons who wandered over the border into Wales, and that the Welsh did not adopt surnames until a relatively late period. I have never found that argument particularly convincing, although it is certainly not impossible. In opposition to the scarcity of DF99 in Celtic areas, we have a concentration of DF99 in Germanic language areas. As much as some would love it to be the case, I don't think it is possible to associate DF99 primarily with the Celts. However I don't think one can rule out the possibility that some portion of DF99, probably a relatively small one, was part of the Celtic culture at one time. On the other hand, I think it is also entirely possible that all of DF99 was of Germanic origin. There really isn't a single DF99 example that has an established origin in a location outside Germanic language countries where Germanic tribes (such as Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Lombards, Burgundians etc.) didn't settle during the Migration Age.

So I think it is likely that most if not all of DF99 was absorbed into the Jastorf Culture, often regarded as the origin of the Germanic people, at a very early date. I don't think it is possible to say at this point if DF99 was part of the Nordic Bronze Age Culture which originated in Scandinavia and expanded to the south, or whether DF99 was part of the Hallstatt Celts or some other culture which was absorbed into Jastorf.

My working hypothesis, which is admittedly speculative, is that DF99 arose somewhere in eastern Europe, and had an expansion point somewhere in the Baltic area, perhaps in what is now northern Poland. Other possibilities could be somewhere along the Rhine or somewhere near the Alps, but I think these are less likely. Until we get some ancient DF99 DNA, all we can do is hypothesize based on what we know about its modern distribution.

Torc Seanathair
08-14-2017, 12:28 PM
The questions I'm left with here are is the fraction of DF99 in England in keeping with the fraction of DF99 in the regions of Germanic nations that settled in England after Rome receded, and if not, how did DF99 get to England? It is my perception that DF99 is under-represented in England compared to other "Saxon" SNP's.

TigerMW
08-14-2017, 01:50 PM
The questions I'm left with here are is the fraction of DF99 in England in keeping with the fraction of DF99 in the regions of Germanic nations that settled in England after Rome receded, and if not, how did DF99 get to England? It is my perception that DF99 is under-represented in England compared to other "Saxon" SNP's.
I don't think we should expect the mixes of Y haplogroup across the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and later Danes should be the same so we can't expect their migrations to one geographic destination should be proportioned the same.

I think the key might be if DF99 was over-represented in the England versus the areas where the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes came from. If it was then that would add weight (albeit inconclusive) to DF99 coming from another source, like the prior Romano-Celtic populations of Britain. I don't think that is the case. DF99 is not more dense in Britain, right?

Torc Seanathair
08-14-2017, 05:01 PM
Yes, what I'm meaning to say is that the actual occurrence of DF99 in England seems to be a much smaller portion relative to Germanic areas of the continent. There is a reason it is less common in England. What would be that reason?

GoldenHind
08-14-2017, 11:06 PM
I don't think we should expect the mixes of Y haplogroup across the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and later Danes should be the same so we can't expect their migrations to one geographic destination should be proportioned the same.

I think the key might be if DF99 was over-represented in the England versus the areas where the Angles, Saxons, Jutes and Danes came from. If it was then that would add weight (albeit inconclusive) to DF99 coming from another source, like the prior Romano-Celtic populations of Britain. I don't think that is the case. DF99 is not more dense in Britain, right?

Taking into consideration the enormous over-weighting of samples from the British Isles and Ireland compared to those from the continent in the FTDNA database, I have little doubt that DF99 is more dense in central Europe, especially Germany and surrounding environs, than in Britain. Secondly DF99 in the Isles is overwhelmingly from England as opposed to Ireland, Scotland or Wales. Looking at the map of DF99 in England, the vast majority of them give ancestral locations in the eastern half of England, where Anglo-Saxon settlement was heaviest. We also have examples in the areas specified by Bede for settlement by Angles, Saxons and Jutes, namely East Anglia (Norfolk), Kent and the Isle of Wight.

To respond to specific query, I don't think we have a reliable sampling from those areas where the Anglo-Saxons etc.originated. Further some contend that area was de-populated after they left for Britain, and that those who moved in to replace them may have been of different origin. We do however have a DF99 example who is a German national living in a village in Niedersachsen/Lower Saxony, traditional homeland of the Saxons (unfortunately he does not appear on the DF99 map), as well as others whose surnames suggest an origin in the same general area.

While I do suspect that most of DF99 in England got there with the Anglo-Saxons, I doubt very much that all of it was. We have a French-Canadian DF99 family from Normandy whose origin does not depend on a "My ancestors came to England with William the Conqueror" claim. I see no reason to doubt that DF99 is present in Normandy to some extent, so one can't exclude a possible Norman origin for at least some DF99 in England. How it may have got to Normandy is another question. The available evidence suggests DF99 is very rare in France in general. There is a DF99 family from England who lists their EKA as Domesday tenant Walter fitz Other. I haven't seen their paper trail, so I can't vouch for its accuracy. However if accurate, this man clearly appears to be a Norman, from his name Walter, which is a common Norman name, as well as his status. His father's name Other is more problematic, but English name expert P. H. Reaney gives a derivation as from the Old Norse name Ottar.

Despite the skepticism of some, I also think a Scandinavian origin for at least some of the DF99 in England can't be ruled out. Although DF99 doesn't appear to common there, we do have DF99 from Sweden, and I have seen several others from there as well as Denmark and Norway whose markers and matches suggest a high probability of being DF99. Unfortunately I haven't yet been able to date to persuade them to test for it. We do have DF99 in the old Danelaw area of England where Scandinavian settlement was heaviest. There is also a DF99 with ancestry from Yorkshire whose closest match appears to be the DF99 from Moscow. I think the most likely explanation for this, though not by any means the only possible one, is a common origin in Sweden.

Finally, as I have pointed out several times previously, I think the possibility that some DF99 was present in Britain prior to the arrival of the Romans. DF99 is both ancient and fairly widespread in Europe, so I doubt that its presence in Britain is due to a single source.

I want to emphasize that this is all speculative, based on circumstantial evidence, which is suggestive rather than conclusive.

Theconqueror
08-15-2017, 02:53 PM
Thanks for all your insights. This all makes a lot of sense to me.

GoldenHind
08-16-2017, 09:07 PM
Deleted

GoldenHind
08-21-2017, 05:53 PM
There are now five DF99 individuals I am aware of who have the Big Y on order. I am hopeful their results will extend our current knowledge of the DF99 substructure.

GoldenHind
10-07-2017, 07:39 PM
There are two new members of the DF99 Project worthy of noting. One has tested DF99>FGC16982>FGC16979>BY15482>BY15484 in the Big Y. He has an English surname with ancestry to early 18C Virginia. There are a number of this surname group who have tested DF99+ in the FTDNA system, but he is the only one who has joined the project.

The second is a bit mysterious, as he hasn't listed an address or any information at all about his ancestry. He has only tested to DF99+. His surname appears to be French, and I suspect he is a Swiss national, but I haven't yet been in contact with him.

GoldenHind
10-09-2017, 10:53 PM
Interesting... i was going to order BY15507 but i can't seem to find a way to do so.

I am told by FTDNA that BY15507 failed validation, but that S23763 is thought to have an equivalent position and is now available to order.

Roaring
10-26-2017, 04:26 PM
I am told by FTDNA that BY15507 failed validation, but that S23763 is thought to have an equivalent position and is now available to order.

Wanted to share with you some news - had a new 4-steps 37 match with someone claiming Dirck Storm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirck_Storm) as his ancestor. I've wrote him an email asking to buy M269 pack.

GoldenHind
10-26-2017, 06:14 PM
Wanted to share with you some news - had a new 4-steps 37 match with someone claiming Dirck Storm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirck_Storm) as his ancestor. I've wrote him an email asking to buy M269 pack.

Thanks. Let me know if you hear back from him.

GoldenHind
11-01-2017, 12:18 AM
The results of a YDNA survey of 270 men in Flanders has been reported on another post on this forum:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12511-Defining-Y-SNP-variation-among-the-Flemish-population-(Western-Europe)-by-full-genome&p=304204&viewfull=1#post304204

There was only a single DF99 man in the sample of 270 It is not surprising that it is present there, as we have a DF99 family in the project with an origin in Flanders, although the rate is surprisingly low.

It is interesting to compare this to a previous study of 500 males in the Netherlands, where four were DF99. If these results are representative, one could say that DF99 is roughly twice as common in Holland as it is in Flanders. This is some support for the idea that the frequency of DF99 on the continent tends to decrease from east to west.

Celt_??
11-01-2017, 12:29 AM
.....It is interesting to compare this to a previous study of 500 males in the Netherlands, where four were DF99.

Do you have a link to the previous study of 500 males in the Netherlands results? Thank you

Alain
11-01-2017, 01:42 AM
Hello is the Unetice culture typical for Celts i have by Gedmatch Results 19% Unetice Culture and 7% Britania York?

Alain
11-01-2017, 01:07 PM
Is this forum for Celts?

GoldenHind
11-01-2017, 09:33 PM
Do you have a link to the previous study of 500 males in the Netherlands results? Thank you

All I have is a preliminary analysis of the P312 data from this study posted on this forum by rrocca back in 2013. The study was conducted by the Genomes of the Netherlands (GoNL) project. You may be able to find it on the archived section of this forum, where the thread was entitled P312 in the Netherlands. He provided the following link at the time:

www.genoomvannederland.nl

I assume you are interested in the U152 subclade. The result was 36 out of 500 or 7.2% of the total.

GoldenHind
11-01-2017, 09:39 PM
Is this forum for Celts?


If you mean this thread, the answer is no. This thread is for news, updates and questions about the DF99 subclade of R1b-P312. While I wouldn't deny the possibility that some portion, probably a small one, of DF99 might have been present at one time or another among the Celts, current evidence strongly suggests a much closer connection with the Germanic people.

Celt_??
11-01-2017, 09:47 PM
All I have is a preliminary analysis of the P312 data from this study posted on this forum by rrocca back in 2013. The study was conducted by the Genomes of the Netherlands (GoNL) project. You may be able to find it on the archived section of this forum, where the thread was entitled P312 in the Netherlands. He provided the following link at the time:

www.genoomvannederland.nl

I assume you are interested in the U152 subclade. The result was 36 out of 500 or 7.2% of the total.

Good presumption !! Thank you

Roaring
11-04-2017, 01:31 AM
Thanks. Let me know if you hear back from him.

Wrote to all of my 4 matches, so far only a Swede ordered M269 pack.

GoldenHind
11-05-2017, 03:32 AM
Wrote to all of my 4 matches, so far only a Swede ordered M269 pack.

I have already informed you of this, but others may be interested. I have identified the Ysearch entry for your match in Sweden and compared your results. You and he share an incredible 10 off-modal marker values just in the first 37 markers. This may be the strongest example of an STR signature I have yet encountered. I have no doubt that not only will he test DF99+, but that the two of you share the same terminal SNP marker below DF99.

TigerMW
11-05-2017, 03:38 PM
I have already informed you of this, but others may be interested. I have identified the Ysearch entry for your match in Sweden and compared your results. You and he share an incredible 10 off-modal marker values just in the first 37 markers. This may be the strongest example of an STR signature I have yet encountered. I have no doubt that not only will he test DF99+, but that the two of you share the same terminal SNP marker below DF99.

I take it that is just one STR signature within DF99. If so, this is just another indicator that DF99 is quite old.

GoldenHind
11-05-2017, 06:06 PM
I take it that is just one STR signature within DF99. If so, this is just another indicator that DF99 is quite old.

Correct. There is another DF99 STR signature which is found in the DF99>FGC847>FGC864 group. It has only six off modals, two in the first 37, three in the 37-67 panel and one in the 68-111 panel. The only off-modal common to both signatures is DYS389-1 = 12, which is characteristic of DF99 as a whole.

Roaring
11-05-2017, 09:26 PM
I have already informed you of this, but others may be interested. I have identified the Ysearch entry for your match in Sweden and compared your results. You and he share an incredible 10 off-modal marker values just in the first 37 markers. This may be the strongest example of an STR signature I have yet encountered. I have no doubt that not only will he test DF99+, but that the two of you share the same terminal SNP marker below DF99.

Thanks, this however rises an interesting question regarding my EKA's ethnic affilation, since he came from Denmark-Norway and only document i have is a recruitment paper by Peter the Great i used to think of him as of German, but considering a relatievly close match with a swede i guess he may have been a Scandinavian also? It's interesting considering that Surname has two peaks- In Tyrol and Rhine area, both are pretty removed from North-German-Scando cluster.

P.S. A little bit off-topic, but do you happen to have any similar knowledge on I-M253? My grandad happens to belong to it, but have 0 matches even on 12 markers! I do find it odd, considering it's a well tested and relatievly young haplo.

GoldenHind
11-06-2017, 03:09 AM
Thanks, this however rises an interesting question regarding my EKA's ethnic affilation, since he came from Denmark-Norway and only document i have is a recruitment paper by Peter the Great i used to think of him as of German, but considering a relatievly close match with a swede i guess he may have been a Scandinavian also? It's interesting considering that Surname has two peaks- In Tyrol and Rhine area, both are pretty removed from North-German-Scando cluster.

P.S. A little bit off-topic, but do you happen to have any similar knowledge on I-M253? My grandad happens to belong to it, but have 0 matches even on 12 markers! I do find it odd, considering it's a well tested and relatievly young haplo.

I do think an ultimate Scandinavian origin is entirely possible for you, though by no means certain. Your connection with the Swede is probably from a time centuries before the advent of surnames. I also think your EKA most likely was from somewhere in northern Germany, probably Schleswig or Holstein, both of which were formerly under Danish rule. One of your earlier ancestors could have settled there from Scandinavia sometime between the early middle ages and c. 1700. One very close variant of your surname is well represented there. I also believe the surname variant you used is found in Mecklenburg and Pomerania in north eastern Germany as well as the Rhineland. Consider the case of there famous Prussian general Helmut von Moltke. He was from a Mecklenburg family of the lesser nobility, and he was born there. However his father was a general in the Danish army and the family moved to Holstein. Helmut began his military career in the Danish army before leaving it to join the Prussian army, which he felt offered better chances for advancement.

As for your second question, I know absolutely nothing about I-M253. I suggest checking the HG I topics and posting your question there.

cazimer
11-07-2017, 12:42 PM
I have already informed you of this, but others may be interested. I have identified the Ysearch entry for your match in Sweden and compared your results. You and he share an incredible 10 off-modal marker values just in the first 37 markers. This may be the strongest example of an STR signature I have yet encountered. I have no doubt that not only will he test DF99+, but that the two of you share the same terminal SNP marker below DF99.

Your comments about STR family signatures being linked to or defined by off-modal matches and the example you sited as a possible 'strongest example' peaked my interest and prompted this post. As I read this, I was reasonably sure that I had found a match that contained even more off-modal matches in an even more dense collection than the above example. My kit# is 330524 and the match I refer to is kit#593795. He appeared in the FTDNA data base several months ago and I discovered him by accident since the only project that he seemed to have joined was "Germanna DNA Project" and this is the only place that I could see his results. Compared to me he is gd=2 @67, a surname match, and after double checking, I see the following off-modal matches: 5 at 12, 15 at 37, and 18 at 67 STR's and also the tell-tale 12 result for DYS389i suggesting that he is a fellow DF99+. He and I have corresponded and compared family trees and have mutually concluded that we have a common male ancestor that lived in the second half of the 1700's, Virginia Colony. His interests lie primarily in the 1800's. Unfortunately, he is not really keen on any additional testing or at least I get this impression and when I realized this stance during our correspondence I did not have a good set of reasons to counter this attitude other than just MY curiosity. I did suggest that he join the R-M269 Project but he has not done this so as far as I have seen. So, I would appreciate that you check my understanding of off-modal matches and from your perspective, tell me what could be gained by any additional testing that he could do? What reasons could be used to persuade him to test? Are there any reasons that would help him to unravel the family's mysteries of the 19th century? My interests lie in the period 500 AD to 1700 AD. Depending on what is possible, I am certainly amenable to contributing to his expenses...

GoldenHind
11-08-2017, 07:59 PM
Your comments about STR family signatures being linked to or defined by off-modal matches and the example you sited as a possible 'strongest example' peaked my interest and prompted this post. As I read this, I was reasonably sure that I had found a match that contained even more off-modal matches in an even more dense collection than the above example. My kit# is 330524 and the match I refer to is kit#593795. He appeared in the FTDNA data base several months ago and I discovered him by accident since the only project that he seemed to have joined was "Germanna DNA Project" and this is the only place that I could see his results. Compared to me he is gd=2 @67, a surname match, and after double checking, I see the following off-modal matches: 5 at 12, 15 at 37, and 18 at 67 STR's and also the tell-tale 12 result for DYS389i suggesting that he is a fellow DF99+. He and I have corresponded and compared family trees and have mutually concluded that we have a common male ancestor that lived in the second half of the 1700's, Virginia Colony. His interests lie primarily in the 1800's. Unfortunately, he is not really keen on any additional testing or at least I get this impression and when I realized this stance during our correspondence I did not have a good set of reasons to counter this attitude other than just MY curiosity. I did suggest that he join the R-M269 Project but he has not done this so as far as I have seen. So, I would appreciate that you check my understanding of off-modal matches and from your perspective, tell me what could be gained by any additional testing that he could do? What reasons could be used to persuade him to test? Are there any reasons that would help him to unravel the family's mysteries of the 19th century? My interests lie in the period 500 AD to 1700 AD. Depending on what is possible, I am certainly amenable to contributing to his expenses...

Welcome to the forum. It's good to have you here.

There are really three parts to your question. First, a 65/67 same surname match is pretty well guaranteed to be related, although there could be some exceptions. Also I think that level match is consistent with a common ancestor who lived somewhere around 1700, though due to the random nature of STR mutations one can only make a rough estimate. Also the markers which are different are important, as some (such as CDYa/b) mutate very rapidly and others mutate only very rarely. In your case, it looks like your match is listing the same EKA (earliest known ancestor) as you, so he seems to have accepted the connection.

I have done a lot of work looking for STR signatures within P312. The term (not coined by me) refers to people within a general haplogroup (such as R1b) who have a number of matching off- modal markers. This is very good evidence that they share a common ancestry sometime in the past and are likely to be in the same R1b subclade, despite the lack of evidence of any obvious relationship. The method was first developed by scientist and DNA hobbiest Ken Nordtvedt, and its validity is firmly established.

To determine what STRs are off-modal, one has to choose a modal to compare them with. For any P312 group, including DF99, I use the P312 modal, which appears at Ysearch XQJ7H (entered I believe by Mike W.). You must have used something else, as I only see 3 off-modals in your first 12 markers, and another 4 in the 13-25 panel. Almost everyone who is P312 will have a number of markers which differ from the P312 modal. I consider it to be an STR signature when a number of people with different surnames share a substantial number of matching off-modal marker values. This indicates a common descent from a period before the time of surname adoption. Basic STR signatures are utilized by the various haplogroup predictor websites to predict haplogtoups and subclades.

Finally there is the question of how to persuade reluctant matches to do further testing. I wish I knew the answer to that. I have sent out a large number of emails to people whose markers and matches suggest they are likely to be DF99+. I would estimate that about 75% of them don't even bother to respond. I can say that the I have found the best lure is an offer of a "free" test, meaning of course that someone else pays for it. This almost always works. I have only made this offer in cases where I thought the result would be especially important.

I have some ideas on how to offer a free test to your match, which I will send you by email.

Roaring
11-19-2017, 12:35 AM
I do think an ultimate Scandinavian origin is entirely possible for you, though by no means certain. Your connection with the Swede is probably from a time centuries before the advent of surnames. I also think your EKA most likely was from somewhere in northern Germany, probably Schleswig or Holstein, both of which were formerly under Danish rule. One of your earlier ancestors could have settled there from Scandinavia sometime between the early middle ages and c. 1700. One very close variant of your surname is well represented there. I also believe the surname variant you used is found in Mecklenburg and Pomerania in north eastern Germany as well as the Rhineland. Consider the case of there famous Prussian general Helmut von Moltke. He was from a Mecklenburg family of the lesser nobility, and he was born there. However his father was a general in the Danish army and the family moved to Holstein. Helmut began his military career in the Danish army before leaving it to join the Prussian army, which he felt offered better chances for advancement.

As for your second question, I know absolutely nothing about I-M253. I suggest checking the HG I topics and posting your question there.


A little update, just found this information, my German is not enough to understand it, but as far as logic tells it suggest that Heisel is native to Holstein, which goes very well with all other information i have. I guess we can be almost be certain that my Y-dna came from this area.
https://i.imgur.com/KRcALsn.png

GoldenHind
11-19-2017, 08:21 PM
A little update, just found this information, my German is not enough to understand it, but as far as logic tells it suggest that Heisel is native to Holstein, which goes very well with all other information i have. I guess we can be almost be certain that my Y-dna came from this area.
https://i.imgur.com/KRcALsn.png

Although my German is pretty rusty, I believe it says that in contrast to the name Heissler, which is concentrated in northern Baden, Heisler is scattered throughout Germany, but forms a cluster (literally builds a nest) in Heilingenhafen, where it may certainly be treated as originating from the settlement name Heisel in Holstein.

Heilingenhafen is a fishing village on the Baltic coast in Schleswig-Holstein, and Heisel is or was a village located very close to the Danish/German border, in Kreis Tondern in Prussia. I'm not sure on which side of the border, which has moved back and forth since the Prussian-Danish war of 1864, Heisel is currently found, but it would certainly been under Danish rule in the 17 and 18C.

This certainly fits with your circumstances, and is undoubtedly worth investigating.

EDIT: I have done a little more investigating regarding the location of Heisel. Třnder/Tönder is currently in Denmark, just across the border from Germany. I couldn't find a village called Heisel in Germany, but I don't have a detailed map of that part of Germany. I do have a very detailed map of Denmark, and I found a village called Hessel near Tonder. Whether this is the same place as the Heisel in Kreis Tonder formerly in Prussia I cannot say.

GoldenHind
11-29-2017, 01:05 AM
A new DF99 (and FGC16982>S16981>FGC16979+) from the Big Y joined both the P312 and DF99 projects today. He has ancestry from a small village in Dorset near the Channel coast, not far from Bournemouth. This is old Wessex, land of the West Saxons.

Another current project member had Big Y results come in today with a DF99>FGC16982+. His ancestry is from the London area (Southwark).

castle3
11-29-2017, 06:27 AM
A new DF99 (and FGC16982>S16981>FGC16979+) from the Big Y joined both the P312 and DF99 projects today. He has ancestry from a small village in Dorset near the Channel coast, not far from Bournemouth. This is old Wessex, land of the West Saxons.

Another current project member had Big Y results come in today with a DF99>FGC16982+. His ancestry is from the London area (Southwark).

I'm sure you're all aware that Southwark was a major Huguenot centre.

GoldenHind
11-29-2017, 07:24 PM
I'm sure you're all aware that Southwark was a major Huguenot centre.

Although I certainly am aware of the large number of Huguenots who went to England (and Prussia), I didn't know that Southwark was a center. There is one multiple branched DF99 family of Flemish origin and there are some DF99's from England who may well be of Huguenot origin. However I don't think that is likely to be the case with this particular individual, as his surname is of Anglo-Saxon (Old English) origin.

GoldenHind
11-29-2017, 07:28 PM
Big Y results came in today for the DF99 with ancestry from Luxembourg. He is FGC847+ but FGC864-. The only other person in this category so far has ancestry from central Germany.

Roaring
12-05-2017, 04:54 PM
Big Y results came in today for the DF99 with ancestry from Luxembourg. He is FGC847+ but FGC864-. The only other person in this category so far has ancestry from central Germany.

Is this person ethnic Luxembourgian (Germanic)?

GoldenHind
12-05-2017, 06:40 PM
Is this person ethnic Luxembourgian (Germanic)?

He is an American with male line ancestry back to the late 17C in a small village in the south of Luxembourg. His surname is of Germanic origin, from an old Germanic word for warrior. The identical surname is also found in England, where it has a similar origin from a related word in Old English (Anglo-Saxon).

His closest match at 67 markers is someone in Zurich who indicates ancestry from a town in Baden. Unfortunately this match, who is P312+, has not tested for DF99.

Telfermagne
12-07-2017, 06:08 AM
FGC864+ at long last. I've been out of the loop for a while, what's the BY21728? And any scoop on the Norman named guy from the 11th century?

GoldenHind
12-08-2017, 01:12 AM
FGC864+ at long last. I've been out of the loop for a while, what's the BY21728? And any scoop on the Norman named guy from the 11th century?

As you probably know, FGC847 constitutes one of three known subclades of DF99, It is currently divided into two separate groups, those who are also positive for FGC864 and those who are negative for it. FGC864 is further divided into two divisions- those who are also positive for BY21728 and those who are negative for it. The person who claims descent from a Domesday tenant is in the latter group ((ie BY21728-). I don't think FTDNA offers testing for BY21728 outside the Big Y.

The FGC847>FGC864 group has a fairly strong STR signature, which you match, which is why your result didn't surprise me. However the signature appears to apply to both subclades of FGC864, so I can't predict whether you are positive or negative for BY21728.

GoldenHind
01-07-2018, 12:55 AM
The DF99 Project is now approaching 100 members, with almost 30 Big Y tests plus a couple from FullGenomes and three from the 1000 Genomes Project. There are others who have tested DF99+ but have not joined the project, plus many more whose surname and STR markers virtually guarantee a DF99+ result if only they would test for it. These two groups would easily double the current number of project members.

To date all those who have done Big Y or other NGS testing, as well as all those who have done individual SNP testing, have tested positive for one of three known subclades directly below DF99: FGC847, S16982 and BY3450. In other words, no one has tested DF99*. At this point I think it is unlikely, though not impossible, that any further subclades directly below DF99 currently exist (if they ever did). Of course each of those three subclades is known to have a further substructure.

DF99 is very widespread in Europe, having been found from northern Ireland in the west to Moscow in the east, central Sweden in the north to Sicily in the south. However the vast majority have origins in Germanic language countries, especially England and Germany. It may be noteworthy that all three of the above mentioned subclades have men of both English and German origin.

Roaring
01-07-2018, 01:25 AM
The DF99 Project is now approaching 100 members, with almost 30 Big Y tests plus a couple from FullGenomes and three from the 1000 Genomes Project. There are others who have tested DF99+ but have not joined the project, plus many more whose surname and STR markers virtually guarantee a DF99+ result if only they would test for it. These two groups would easily double the current number of project members.

To date all those who have done Big Y or other NGS testing, as well as all those who have done individual SNP testing, have tested positive for one of three known subclades directly below DF99: FGC847, S16982 and BY3450. In other words, no one has tested DF99*. At this point I think it is unlikely, though not impossible, that any further subclades directly below DF99 currently exist (if they ever did). Of course each of those three subclades is known to have a further substructure.

DF99 is very widespread in Europe, having been found from northern Ireland in the west to Moscow in the east, central Sweden in the north to Sicily in the south. However the vast majority have origins in Germanic language countries, especially England and Germany. It may be noteworthy that all three of the above mentioned subclades have men of both English and German origin.

So sofar we can't use subclades for any futher ethnical\geographical association?

GoldenHind
01-07-2018, 09:32 PM
So sofar we can't use subclades for any futher ethnical\geographical association?

Not at least for the top level of DF99 subclades. Here are some ancestral locations for the three subclades directly below DF99.

FGC847 England, Germany, Luxembourg, Russia and Peru

S16982 England, Wales, Belgium (Flanders), Italy, Portugal and Germany

BY3450 England, Wales, Germany, Italy and Poland

I hope as we work down the tree the younger subclades will correlate more with national origin. There is one branch of BY3450 that is several steps below that which has only two people to date, and one is from northern Italy and the other from Germany.

The geographic diversity of each subclade suggests to me that spread of DF99 in Europe did not occur immediately after its foundation, but possibly at a considerably later date. A dispersal during the Migration Age would fit well, at least for the majority of DF99.

GoldenHind
01-09-2018, 08:12 AM
Another interesting DF99+ result in today. We now have the third DF99 from Sweden. He has ancestry from the southern Swedish province of Smĺland, now Kronoberg. Like one of the other two, he is a Swedish national. His closest STR match is to Roaring of Russia, whose ancestry appears to be from Denmark or northern Germany. He is not a close STR match to the other two DF99 from Sweden.

GoldenHind
01-22-2018, 08:19 PM
The DF99 Project has finally reached 100 members, though there is one person who remains despite a DF99- test result. I have now identified a number of others who have either tested DF99+ or who are extremely close matches to project members and who would almost certainly test DF99+ if they would only order it. I will try to contact as many as I can to ask them to join. The numbers will likely grow exponentially as each new DF99 is identified.

Theconqueror
02-01-2018, 05:51 PM
As you probably know, FGC847 constitutes one of three known subclades of DF99, It is currently divided into two separate groups, those who are also positive for FGC864 and those who are negative for it. FGC864 is further divided into two divisions- those who are also positive for BY21728 and those who are negative for it. The person who claims descent from a Domesday tenant is in the latter group ((ie BY21728-). I don't think FTDNA offers testing for BY21728 outside the Big Y.

The FGC847>FGC864 group has a fairly strong STR signature, which you match, which is why your result didn't surprise me. However the signature appears to apply to both subclades of FGC864, so I can't predict whether you are positive or negative for BY21728.

I guess I missed this one, so what is the Norman connection again. In previious conversations, I made the point that many of the Brisitsh folks on the DF99 list had Anglo-Norman names or appeared to be having conenction the the continent.

Webb
02-21-2018, 03:56 PM
Please see this link. It appears sample CL94 of this study is DF99.



https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13543-Understanding-6th-Century-Barbarian-Social-Organization-and-Migration-through-Paleoge/page2

GoldenHind
02-22-2018, 12:17 AM
I guess I missed this one, so what is the Norman connection again. In previious conversations, I made the point that many of the Brisitsh folks on the DF99 list had Anglo-Norman names or appeared to be having conenction the the continent.

Your family is the best evidence we have of a connection between DF99 and Normandy. There is also a DF99 from England who claims to be descended from a tenant in chief in Domesday Book (1086) named Walter fitz Other. I can't vouch for the accuracy of the claimed descent, but that man was clearly a Norman, based on both his name and status. There are other DF99 men of English origin whose surnames derive from Old French personal names, which could but does not necessarily indicate a Norman origin. A number have surnames derived from English place names, a practice common with Normans who adopted the name of their English manors for their surname, but again this is hardly conclusive, as not every person with an English place name for a surname is of Norman origin.

There is also a family from Devon in England whose surname according to Reaney drives from the French nickname "bon couer." Their markers and matches makes it highly probable they are DF99. The only one who has tested to 67 markers is a 64/67 match with a known DF99.

I can say that outside of Normandy, DF99 currently appears to be extremely rare in France. The only other DF99 man from France found to date is a French national with ancestry from Savoy, near the borders with Switzerland and northern Italy. I expect there is more there, but I think is highly likely to be extremely rare.

In summary I would say that there is a intriguing possibility that some of the DF99 in England could be of Norman origin.

GoldenHind
02-24-2018, 08:01 PM
A new and very interesting DF99 in today from the M343 R1b backbone test, although something of a head scratcher. He is a Ukrainian national with ancestry to the 18C in the central Ukrainian district of Poltava. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25, but does have the characteristic 12 at DYS389-1. Yet another indication of the more eastern orientation of DF99 compared to other P312 subclades.

Perhaps a descendant of a Swedish Viking or an early medieval migrant from Germany? Or could it be an indication of a presence of DF99 among Corded Ware, which to date appears to be almost entirely R1a?

He has joined the P312 Project, but is not yet in the DF99 project. I will contact him and ask him to join.

GoldenHind
02-24-2018, 11:49 PM
Please see this link. It appears sample CL94 of this study is DF99.

https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?13543-Understanding-6th-Century-Barbarian-Social-Organization-and-Migration-through-Paleoge/page2

My thanks to Webb for pointing this out. I have taken some time to investigate this before replying. The link supplied by Webb is to a thread on this forum discussing a recent genetic study of two ancient Lombard graveyards from Pannonia in modern Hungary and Collegno near Turin in Piedmont, northern Italy. To my knowledge this may be the first study of ancient DNA study which actually tested for the DF99 marker. It is certainly the first to find it.

The study is entitled, "Understanding the 6th Century Barbarian Social Organization and Migration through Paleogenetics."

I have read through the comments posted on the thread on this forum, and also delved into the study itself, which is quite lengthy (the supplementary material alone runs to over 150 pages and is filled with various charts and graphs), to see what information I could glean about the DF99 man.

The Lombards or Langobards were an ancient East Germanic tribe which conquered northern Italy during the late 6th century AD., during the period known as the Migration Age. The province of Lombardy is named for them. Historical sources, whose accuracy has been questioned, maintain they migrated south from a location east of the Elbe river in northern Germany, first to Pannonia and then to northern Italy in the late 6th century. At the time the area was under the control of the Ostrogoths, another East Germanic tribe which had arrived a few centuries earlier.

Genetic testing of the remains identified one of the individuals interred in the Collegno cemetery as having YDNA DF99; they use the alternate name for the SNP, S11987. He is identified in the study as CL94, and was found in the earliest phase (570-590 AD) of this multi-generation burial ground. Isotopic studies established that he was clearly not of local origin, but the study apparently doesn't specify from where he may have come. Someone on this forum noted he appears to have been of "highish" status, but the only mention I could find in the study itself said his was one of the graves where there were indications of disturbance and the grave goods found may not be representative of those originally interred in the burial.

The results of the admixture ancestry comparison for this individual are somewhat puzzling, and to keep this post from being over lengthy, I will report the finding in a further post at a later date.

GoldenHind
02-26-2018, 12:08 AM
A new and very interesting DF99 in today from the M343 R1b backbone test, although something of a head scratcher. He is a Ukrainian national with ancestry to the 18C in the central Ukrainian district of Poltava. He has no matches at 37 markers and only one at 25, but does have the characteristic 12 at DYS389-1. Yet another indication of the more eastern orientation of DF99 compared to other P312 subclades.

Perhaps a descendant of a Swedish Viking or an early medieval migrant from Germany? Or could it be an indication of a presence of DF99 among Corded Ware, which to date appears to be almost entirely R1a?

He has joined the P312 Project, but is not yet in the DF99 project. I will contact him and ask him to join.

The person in question has now joined the DF99 Project and I have been in touch with him. He tells me his surname is actually Lithuanian and his ancestry goes back to the 14C, when his EKA was castellan of the castle at Vilnius in that country. He speculates his ancestors may came to the area as mercenaries of the Teutonic Knights, who certainly operated in that area.

Roaring
03-03-2018, 11:27 PM
The person in question has now joined the DF99 Project and I have been in touch with him. He tells me his surname is actually Lithuanian and his ancestry goes back to the 14C, when his EKA was castellan of the castle at Vilnius in that country. He speculates his ancestors may came to the area as mercenaries of the Teutonic Knights, who certainly operated in that area.

Is there a story of Teutons in this area? As of 14C in my understanding relations between Teutons, who had just conquered Livonia, Estland, and Kurland and Lithuanians, the last free Balts of the region must've been pretty unfriendly.

GoldenHind
03-05-2018, 12:57 AM
The results of the admixture ancestry comparison for this individual are somewhat puzzling, and to keep this post from being over lengthy, I will report the finding in a further post at a later date.

I admit to not fully understanding the significance of this man's admixture results. It is based on an analysis of his autosomnal DNA, which I have never really studied. If someone understands this better than me, perhaps he can explain further.

The study in question apparently compared his autosomnal DNA with modern examples from the 1000 Genomes Project. That project sampled DNA from several different regions of the world, each region consisting of 100 samples. Those relevant here are:
GBR British in England and Scotland
CEU Utah Residents with Northern and Western European Ancenstry
TSI Tuscany in Italia
IBS Iberian Population in Spain
FIN Finnish in Finland

The authors then run a comparison of the DNA of the autosomnal markers of the ancient samples in the study against the modern ones in the !KG project using some sort of statistical analysis program. However they say they are unable to distinguish between the GBR and CEU samples, so they are lumped together. A number of the remains in the Collegno cemetery were overwhelmingly CEU+GBR, which the authors took as an indication of northern European ancestry, consistent with an East Germanic origin. A number were entirely or primarily TSI, which they saw as an indication of southern ancestry, although Tuscany is not very far south of Piedmont and had previously been settled by Ostrogoths. Then there were a number whose results were mixed. The DF99 man was one of these few with very mixed results. Although the bar chart makes it difficult to be precise, he appears to be approximately a third each of CEU+GBR, TSI and IBS, with a sliver of FIN. I am not entirely certain what to make of this, since these autosomes probably came from his maternal ancestral lines, and don't tell us much about his YDNA.

GoldenHind
03-05-2018, 01:00 AM
Is there a story of Teutons in this area? As of 14C in my understanding relations between Teutons, who had just conquered Livonia, Estland, and Kurland and Lithuanians, the last free Balts of the region must've been pretty unfriendly.

Yes, I think you are correct. That was highly speculative on his part, as he admits. It is merely one of many possibilities how DF99 may have got to Lithuania by the 14C.

Roaring
03-07-2018, 11:29 PM
Yes, I think you are correct. That was highly speculative on his part, as he admits. It is merely one of many possibilities how DF99 may have got to Lithuania by the 14C.

Does he have any meaningfull matches?

GoldenHind
03-08-2018, 08:22 PM
Does he have any meaningfull matches?

Not really. He has only tested 37 markers, and has no matches at that level. He has only one match at 25 markers (GD 2), and that is with someone predicted as M269 who lists an EKA in Kent, England in the 16C. At 12 markers he has almost 900 matches, which I wouldn't consider meaningful. For comparison, I have only three matches at 12 markers, but six at 67. That is because I have some unusual marker results in the first 12.

According to the Anglo-Saxon historian Bede, Kent was heavily settled by Jutes, who are thought to have come from Jutland. That could explain an ancient connection, but seems pretty tenuous. We do have another DF99 with ancestry from Kent.

GoldenHind
03-10-2018, 10:57 PM
I have found a little more information concerning the DF99 man identified in the late 6th century Lombard graveyard in northern Italy. There is a graph showing the autosomal Adminxture based on the three prehistoric groups they say form the basis of modern European genetic variation. These are: 1) Paleolithic hunter gatherers (WHG), 2) Neolithic farmers (EEF) and 3) Bronze Age steppe herders (SA). The study says those with greater EEF ancestry are more similar to modern southern ancestry, while those with greater WHG+SA more closely resemble modern northern Europeans, with WHG being more predominate in modern NW Europeans and SA being more predominant in modern NE Europeans. Once again the results are presented in bar graph form, so it makes it difficult to determine an exact percentage. However the DF99 man appears to be slightly more WHG+SA than EEF, with the SA portion being about 35%. If I am following this correctly, this means he is more similar to modern NE Europeans, but has a substantial southern European component.

Finally I read that the Lombards were accompanied by a number of other Germanic tribes in their invasion of Italy, including Ostrogoths, Saxons, Thuringians, Heruli and Gepids. It may be that the DF99 man was from one of these groups. It may also be the case that his mother or grandmother was primarily of southern European origin.

Frithnanth
03-11-2018, 09:00 PM
I have found a little more information concerning the DF99 man identified in the late 6th century Lombard graveyard in northern Italy. There is a graph showing the autosomal Adminxture based on the three prehistoric groups they say form the basis of modern European genetic variation. These are: 1) Paleolithic hunter gatherers (WHG), 2) Neolithic farmers (EEF) and 3) Bronze Age steppe herders (SA). The study says those with greater EEF ancestry are more similar to modern southern ancestry, while those with greater WHG+SA more closely resemble modern northern Europeans, with WHG being more predominate in modern NW Europeans and SA being more predominant in modern NE Europeans. Once again the results are presented in bar graph form, so it makes it difficult to determine an exact percentage. However the DF99 man appears to be slightly more WHG+SA than EEF, with the SA portion being about 35%. If I am following this correctly, this means he is more similar to modern NE Europeans, but has a substantial southern European component.

Finally I read that the Lombards were accompanied by a number of other Germanic tribes in their invasion of Italy, including Ostrogoths, Saxons, Thuringians, Heruli and Gepids. It may be that the DF99 man was from one of these groups. It may also be the case that his mother or grandmother was primarily of southern European origin.

I'm just a rookie in autosomal analysis, but according to the study it seems CL94 is closer to modern southern european populations (especially iberians).

22055

22056

22057

GoldenHind
03-12-2018, 01:06 AM
I'm just a rookie in autosomal analysis, but according to the study it seems CL94 is closer to modern southern european populations (especially iberians).




I'm afraid I am also a rookie in dealing with these types of autosomal analysis. I don't know whether these charts are based on the comparison with those from the 1KG project or not, but I suspect so. If so, the comparison is based on autosomes from modern samples. It could be the case that the matching autosomes come from the large amount of various P312 subclades that ended up in Iberia and Italy and which he might have inherited from common P312 ancestors. We also know that DF99 is present to some extent in Tuscany (one of the 100 samples from Tuscany in the 1KG Project is DF99, and we have another from there in the DF99 project). Or, as I speculated above, it might have come from his maternal side. I don't think a case can be made for DF99 Y-DNA being primarily from southern Europe, due to its scarcity in any location south of northern Italy (in which I include Tuscany) and very strong presence in Germany and England. The only two we have to date are one from Portugal and one from Sicily.

As for the presence of DF99 in Iberia, the 1KG Project included 100 samples from Spain, 90 from Puerto Rico, 89 each from Columbia and Peru and 70 of Mexican ancestry from Los Angeles. Of the total of all of these there was only one DF99 man, from Peru, and we don't even know for sure if his ancestry is from Spain.

I just don't think it is very likely that the DF99 man in the Collegno cemetery got there from Iberia, based solely on an autosomal comparison to modern populations. However I wouldn't say it is impossible. The Roman Empire had largely collapsed by then, so I doubt he was a Roman soldier from Iberia. I suppose he could be a descendant of a Visigoth from Spain who had mixed with the local population.The only things we know for sure is that he was clearly not of local origin (based on isotopic analysis) and he ended up in the late 6th century AD in a Lombard cemetery in Piedmont. It's just our luck that the first identified DF99 man from ancient DNA turns out to be something of an enigma.

Frithnanth
03-13-2018, 12:19 AM
Maybe he was local to Italy, not from Collegno but from another part of the country. He could be a roman (inappropriate term) from Cisalpine Gaul with mixed italic and celtic, or even ligurian ancestry.

I think it's difficult to draw any conclusions with this single sample, even more with his autosomal composition, unusual for a barbarian supposely from northern Germany.

But as you said, maybe his mother was southern european.

Dewsloth
03-13-2018, 12:39 AM
I admit to not fully understanding the significance of this man's admixture results. It is based on an analysis of his autosomnal DNA, which I have never really studied. If someone understands this better than me, perhaps he can explain further.

The study in question apparently compared his autosomnal DNA with modern examples from the 1000 Genomes Project. That project sampled DNA from several different regions of the world, each region consisting of 100 samples. Those relevant here are:
GBR British in England and Scotland
CEU Utah Residents with Northern and Western European Ancenstry
TSI Tuscany in Italia
IBS Iberian Population in Spain
FIN Finnish in Finland

The authors then run a comparison of the DNA of the autosomnal markers of the ancient samples in the study against the modern ones in the !KG project using some sort of statistical analysis program. However they say they are unable to distinguish between the GBR and CEU samples, so they are lumped together. A number of the remains in the Collegno cemetery were overwhelmingly CEU+GBR, which the authors took as an indication of northern European ancestry, consistent with an East Germanic origin. A number were entirely or primarily TSI, which they saw as an indication of southern ancestry, although Tuscany is not very far south of Piedmont and had previously been settled by Ostrogoths. Then there were a number whose results were mixed. The DF99 man was one of these few with very mixed results. Although the bar chart makes it difficult to be precise, he appears to be approximately a third each of CEU+GBR, TSI and IBS, with a sliver of FIN. I am not entirely certain what to make of this, since these autosomes probably came from his maternal ancestral lines, and don't tell us much about his YDNA.

The Roman in the study below was about half Iberian/IBS, moderate TSI and almost no CEU, so maybe the Collegno DF99 guy in the cemetery had a Roman mother and a northern father?

See Figure 3 at http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1719880115

See also: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8066-DISCUSSION-THREAD-FOR-quot-Genetic-Genealogy-and-Ancient-DNA-in-the-News-quot&p=362890&viewfull=1#post362890

GoldenHind
03-14-2018, 01:21 AM
For the reasons I mentioned above, I am not convinced that the comparison of the autosomes of DF99 man from Collegno with modern day samples necessarily provides an accurate picture of his ancestry, and this is certainly true for his YDNA, which is only a very small part of his total DNA. But let us assume for the sake of argument that it is in fact accurate, We still have to explain why approximately one third of his autosomes corresponds to CEU+GBR, which the study takes as signifying a northern European origin. Having thought about it a bit, I have come up with a scenario that I think fits. The Ostrogoths, another Germanic tribe thought to have originated in the Baltic area, had conquered Italy about a century before the arrival of the Lombards. According to the Wikipedia article on them (which seems to be well sourced), the Ostrogoths were settled pretty thickly in northern Italy. According to the same source, on the arrival of the Lombards they joined with them in their conquest of Italy. If the DF99 man's ancestors had arrived in Italy with the Ostrogoths a century or more before the Lombards, they might well have married local women over two or three generations. Such a scenario could explain why he was a mixture of CEU+GBR, IBS and TSI. If he joined forces with the Lombards, it could also explain why he ended up in a Lombard cemetery.

But this is clearly speculation, and I agree with Frithnarth that it is difficult to draw any firm conclusions from this single sample.

R.Rocca
03-14-2018, 02:29 AM
For the reasons I mentioned above, I am not convinced that the comparison of the autosomes of DF99 man from Collegno with modern day samples necessarily provides an accurate picture of his ancestry, and this is certainly true for his YDNA, which is only a very small part of his total DNA. But let us assume for the sake of argument that it is in fact accurate, We still have to explain why approximately one third of his autosomes corresponds to CEU+GBR, which the study takes as signifying a northern European origin. Having thought about it a bit, I have come up with a scenario that I think fits. The Ostrogoths, another Germanic tribe thought to have originated in the Baltic area, had conquered Italy about a century before the arrival of the Lombards. According to the Wikipedia article on them (which seems to be well sourced), the Ostrogoths were settled pretty thickly in northern Italy. According to the same source, on the arrival of the Lombards they joined with them in their conquest of Italy. If the DF99 man's ancestors had arrived in Italy with the Ostrogoths a century or more before the Lombards, they might well have married local women over two or three generations. Such a scenario could explain why he was a mixture of CEU+GBR, IBS and TSI. If he joined forces with the Lombards, it could also explain why he ended up in a Lombard cemetery.

But this is clearly speculation, and I agree with Frithnarth that it is difficult to draw any firm conclusions from this single sample.

Of all of the 1000 Genomes groups that were used, the most "Celtic" of them is GBR. In most studies, CEU is almost indistinguishable from GBR as they are likely Americans with of heavy British ancestry. See here for a PCA of just one of the studies: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep04666/figures/3

So,you have two parts Mediterranean and one part NW European.

MitchellSince1893
03-14-2018, 03:02 AM
Here is a map plot of CEU from this study https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms14238

https://anthrogenica.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=13850&d=1486510110


If you are wondering why it comes out more Danish than British I would remind folks that in this Danish DNA study, Danes are genetically closest to Brits and it near impossible to distinguish them genetically
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10218-2016-Nationwide-Genomic-Study-in-Denmark-Reveals-Remarkable-Population-Homogeneity

GoldenHind
03-14-2018, 08:14 PM
Of all of the 1000 Genomes groups that were used, the most "Celtic" of them is GBR. In most studies, CEU is almost indistinguishable from GBR as they are likely Americans with of heavy British ancestry. See here for a PCA of just one of the studies: https://www.nature.com/articles/srep04666/figures/3

So,you have two parts Mediterranean and one part NW European.

While I admit that I am a novice with auDNA admixture studies, and I certainly cannot vouch for the reliability of the study's conclusions, I see several objections to your contention.

1) There were 29 samples from the first phase of the Collegno burials, including the DF99 man, for whom admixture studies were done. Nine of them, identified by the study as Lombard immigrants, were found to be 90-100% CEU+GBR. Some, including the DF99 man, had varying small amounts of FIN (Finland). It seems to be settled that the Lombards were an East Germanic tribe and not of NW European or Celtic origin. Five samples identified as local and whom seem likely to have at least some Italo-Celtic ancestry, had no CEU+GBR at all, but were about 80-100% TSI.

2) I have some familiarity with residents in Utah, where my mother was born and where I still have many relatives. Utah was heavily settled in the 19C by immigrants from both Britain and Scandinavia, most of the latter of whom I believe were Danes. The small town in central Utah where my mother was born, which is pretty typical, was composed of half immigrants from England and half from Denmark. My mother's four grandparents included one born in England, one born in Denmark, one born in Sweden, and one American of mixed English and Scottish ancestry. Again this is pretty typical of the area. One must also consider the heavy settlement into England over the centuries by both the Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians (principally Danes), and the difficulty in distinguishing between CEU and GBR. I don't know anything about the composition of the 1 KG CEU sample, other than they are Utah residents with Northern and Western European ancestry, so they must certainly include a significant amount of individuals of Scandinavian or part Scandinavian ancestry

For those reasons, as well as the study Mitchell posted a link to above, I think it is an error to see either CEU or GBR as mostly Celtic as opposed to an indistinguishable mixture of Celtic and Germanic.

3) According to the study, modern southern Europeans can be distinguished from both NW and NE Europeans by comparing the autosomal breakdown of EEF (Neolithic farmers), SA (steppe ancestry) and WHG (Paleolithic hunter gathers). They claim southern Europeans have greater EEF, while northern Europeans have greater WHG+SA, with WHG being predominant in NW Europeans and SA in NE Europeans. Again I can't vouch for the accuracy of this contention. The samples analyzed all had a substantial SA component, and the primary difference appears to be the amount of EEF vs. WHG, although the EEF segment was larger than WHG in all of them. From the bar graph, the DF99 man appears to be close to 50% EEF, about 35% SA and about 15% WHG, but a very slightly larger total of SA+WHG. His SA is clearly substantially larger than his WHG. If the assertions of the study are correct, I suppose this could mean he had a mixture of both southern and NE European ancestry.

Theconqueror
03-19-2018, 01:03 PM
Anybody looked at the new study by Veeramah et al. 2018 on medieval germany(bavaria)? I wonder if any DF99 were found.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1719880115

Roaring
03-20-2018, 11:22 AM
Anybody looked at the new study by Veeramah et al. 2018 on medieval germany(bavaria)? I wonder if any DF99 were found.

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2018/03/06/1719880115

They did not test Y as far as i know.

GoldenHind
03-24-2018, 11:19 PM
For some time I have toyed with a hypothesis that at least a major part of DF99 may have spread from an area south of the Baltic which is now northern Poland. They might have come from the eastern Beaker settlements on the Oder and Vistula rivers, both of which flow northwards into the Baltic, and might have been involved in the amber trade. We do have confirmed DF99 from Sweden on the western side of the Baltic, and have recently added another from Lithuania on the east side of the Baltic. Now I have identified a man in Helsinki with a Finnish surname whose markers and matches strongly suggest he is DF99. Contact was made through a Finnish speaking intermediary, and I am told he is interested, but so far he hasn't ordered a test for it or joined the project.

There are two pending DF99 tests from individuals with origins from very near the southern shore of the Baltic. One is from Schleswig-Holstein and the other is from the former Prussian province of Pomerania (Pommern). If these two are DF99+, as I strongly suspect, and the man from Finland can be persuaded to test and is also DF99+, we will pretty much have the Baltic encircled. While they all could be descendants of more modern immigrants to the area, it seems unlikely to me this is merely a coincidence. Perhaps they may be remnants of an ancient presence there.

This general area is of additional interest because many of the East Germanic tribes (such as Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Lombards, Burgundians etc) are thought to have spread from this area (though some may have got there from southern Sweden) during the Migration Age.

Roaring
04-03-2018, 09:08 PM
For some time I have toyed with a hypothesis that at least a major part of DF99 may have spread from an area south of the Baltic which is now northern Poland. They might have come from the eastern Beaker settlements on the Oder and Vistula rivers, both of which flow northwards into the Baltic, and might have been involved in the amber trade. We do have confirmed DF99 from Sweden on the western side of the Baltic, and have recently added another from Lithuania on the east side of the Baltic. Now I have identified a man in Helsinki with a Finnish surname whose markers and matches strongly suggest he is DF99. Contact was made through a Finnish speaking intermediary, and I am told he is interested, but so far he hasn't ordered a test for it or joined the project.

There are two pending DF99 tests from individuals with origins from very near the southern shore of the Baltic. One is from Schleswig-Holstein and the other is from the former Prussian province of Pomerania (Pommern). If these two are DF99+, as I strongly suspect, and the man from Finland can be persuaded to test and is also DF99+, we will pretty much have the Baltic encircled. While they all could be descendants of more modern immigrants to the area, it seems unlikely to me this is merely a coincidence. Perhaps they may be remnants of an ancient presence there.

This general area is of additional interest because many of the East Germanic tribes (such as Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Lombards, Burgundians etc) are thought to have spread from this area (though some may have got there from southern Sweden) during the Migration Age.

Would be interesting to see the Schleswig-Holstein one, any possibility of bein related to me?

GoldenHind
04-03-2018, 11:25 PM
Would be interesting to see the Schleswig-Holstein one, any possibility of bein related to me?

He appears on your 25 marker match list as a 25/26 match (i.e. a GD of 1). However he is not a match to you at 37 markers, so he is not likely to be closely related to you. At 37 and 67 markers, he has only one match, to a confirmed DF99+ of unknown ancestry. I wouldn't be surprised if you both turn out to be in the same DF99 subclade, but we don't know what that might be. His ancestry is from a small town near Kiel.

GoldenHind
04-10-2018, 06:39 PM
The DF99 test result came in today for the person with recent ancestry from Schleswig-Holstein (his father was born there), and, as I suspected, he is positive. As I said before, his ancestry is from a village near Kiel. The one from Pomerania is still pending.

EDIT: He now tells me that his ancestry in the vicinity near Kiel extends back to the mid 17th century.

GoldenHind
04-11-2018, 06:43 PM
Interesting results in today from the P312 SNP pack test for a DF99 with a German surname and ancestry from Canton Bern, Switzerland from the 16th cent. This test includes the upper level of markers below DF99, including the three known DF99 subclades. He was positive for DFF99 subclade BY3450/3449 (these appear to have an equivalent position), but negative for BY3447, the only marker known so far to be directly beneath BY3450/3449. There is to date only one other known person in this category, a person with ancestry from Veneto in NE Italy.

I can see two different explanations for this: 1) they are both remnants of an ancient presence of DF99 in the Alpine area, or 2) the Italian is a descendant of one of the numerous Germanic tribes that poured into northern Italy as the Roman Empire was collapsing.

Perhaps relevant to the question are three DF99 who are DF99>BY3450/3449>BY3447+ plus another some 18 SNPs below that. Two of the three (who are distantly related) have ancestry from SW Germany and the third has ancestry from Piedmont in the far north of Italy. The same possibilities apply to them, but the large number of matching SNPs suggests to me that their connection is more likely to be more recent than merely just sharing a common ancient Alpine origin.

Theconqueror
04-13-2018, 02:47 PM
Interesting results in today from the P312 SNP pack test for a DF99 with a German surname and ancestry from Canton Bern, Switzerland from the 16th cent. This test includes the upper level of markers below DF99, including the three known DF99 subclades. He was positive for DFF99 subclade BY3450/3449 (these appear to have an equivalent position), but negative for BY3447, the only marker known so far to be directly beneath BY3450/3449. There is to date only one other known person in this category, a person with ancestry from Veneto in NE Italy.

I can see two different explanations for this: 1) they are both remnants of an ancient presence of DF99 in the Alpine area, or 2) the Italian is a descendant of one of the numerous Germanic tribes that poured into northern Italy as the Roman Empire was collapsing.

Perhaps relevant to the question are three DF99 who are DF99>BY3450/3449>BY3447+ plus another some 18 SNPs below that. Two of the three (who are distantly related) have ancestry from SW Germany and the third has ancestry from Piedmont in the far north of Italy. The same possibilities apply to them, but the large number of matching SNPs suggests to me that their connection is more likely to be more recent than merely just sharing a common ancient Alpine origin.

Is it possible that Y full was updated, I see more than one individual under BY3449, a fellow from Baden-Wurtemburg

-DF99Z6001/DF99/S11987formed 4500 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
R-DF99*
R-Y2832Y2832/FGC7556 * Y2833/FGC847 * Y2834/FGC846formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 4200 ybpinfo
id:YF01418
id:HG02008PER
R-BY3449BY3450 * BY3449 * Y22677formed 4200 ybp, TMRCA 4100 ybpinfo
R-BY3449*
id:YF02364ITA [IT-RO]
R-BY3447Y22150 * Y22671 * Y22670+2 SNPsformed 4100 ybp, TMRCA 2600 ybpinfo
R-BY3447*
id:YF06490
R-Y22144Y22149 * Y22146 * Y22147+11 SNPsformed 2600 ybp, TMRCA 1400 ybpinfo
id:YF06273
id:YF05990DEU [DE-BW]

Anyhow, I decided to test for BY3447. Results should be available soon.

GoldenHind
04-14-2018, 06:09 PM
The first DF99 from the Czech Republic, with a Czech surname. He tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136>BY15507 (FGC16979-) in the Big Y. Although he has 111 markers, he has no matches above 12 markers, and only two at that level.

Roaring
04-16-2018, 06:42 PM
The first DF99 from the Czech Republic, with a Czech surname. He tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136>BY15507 (FGC16979-) in the Big Y. Although he has 111 markers, he has no matches above 12 markers, and only two at that level.

Are you shure that his surname is Czech (slavic)? Czechs often have slavified German surnames that may appear slavic-like for people witout deep knowledge.

TigerMW
04-16-2018, 07:43 PM
Are you shure that his surname is Czech (slavic)? Czechs often have slavified German surnames that may appear slavic-like for people witout deep knowledge.
Is there a reference document for "slavified German" surnames? My mothers side has about one quarter Scottish/English but the rest is all Czech.... Kulhanek, Kovarik, Vana, Sestak, Petracek. My Mom's auDNA has some East Europe but has more West Europe (centering on mid-southern Germany). The leader of their immigration group after an 1848 Prague Rebellion was named John Herman.

razyn
04-17-2018, 12:18 AM
The leader of their immigration group after an 1848 Prague Rebellion was named John Herman.

That's a familiar name, of Czech/Bohemian origin, in the Chesapeake Bay area's earlier colonial history. (Perhaps also in New York and New Jersey, although I never spent much time studying that.) In case you haven't run across cousin Augustine, he produced a famous map in 1673 or so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_Herman

GoldenHind
04-17-2018, 01:15 AM
Are you shure that his surname is Czech (slavic)? Czechs often have slavified German surnames that may appear slavic-like for people witout deep knowledge.

It would be hard to find anyone who has less knowledge of Slavic surnames than me, but it doesn't look like any German surname I know of, so I am assuming it is Czech. I have asked him about the origin of his surname, but haven't as yet heard back from him.

GoldenHind
04-19-2018, 06:36 PM
I have not yet heard from the new DF99 in the Czech Republic yet, but I can report that his ancestry goes back to the 17th C. in eastern Moravia. There was a German minority there, but they were all expelled after WWII. My guess is that his family is not of recent German origin. This area was once home to the Celtic Boli, but I read that they withdrew from the area and were replaced in the Migration Era by a variety of Germanic tribes, including the Marcomanni and the Quadi. They were later overwhelmed by the arrival of the Slavic tribes. Since P312 in general and DF99 specifically aren't likely to have been present in the early Slavic tribes, I think we must look for an earlier origin of the Czech DF99.

GoldenHind
04-19-2018, 06:40 PM
That's a familiar name, of Czech/Bohemian origin, in the Chesapeake Bay area's earlier colonial history. (Perhaps also in New York and New Jersey, although I never spent much time studying that.) In case you haven't run across cousin Augustine, he produced a famous map in 1673 or so: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_Herman

I don't have much doubt that Herman in Bohemia was originally Hermann and of German origin. I don't have enough knowledge to comment about the other Czech surnames listed by Mike.

andywxman
04-26-2018, 03:47 AM
I found this podcast and it's amazing background on migrations and really interesting.... I'm about 20 episodes in and I'm sure I'll listening to all of them. Super interesting

http://historyofenglishpodcast.com

GoldenHind
04-30-2018, 12:52 AM
There are two pending DF99 tests from individuals with origins from very near the southern shore of the Baltic. One is from Schleswig-Holstein and the other is from the former Prussian province of Pomerania (Pommern). If these two are DF99+, as I strongly suspect, and the man from Finland can be persuaded to test and is also DF99+, we will pretty much have the Baltic encircled. While they all could be descendants of more modern immigrants to the area, it seems unlikely to me this is merely a coincidence. Perhaps they may be remnants of an ancient presence there.



The second of the probable DF99 individuals of German ancestry from the southern shore of the Baltic finally received his long delayed DF99 test results, and like the first from Schleswig-Holstein, he is also positive. This one has ancestry from a small village near the former German town of Kolberg in Pomerania. These two are not matches at even 37 markers, so obviously aren't closely related. It appears to me that there was a DF99 presence in what was formerly northeast Germany (now part of Poland) along the southern shore of the Baltic, and that it extended northwards into Sweden on the western side of the Baltic and at least to Lithuania and probably Finland on the eastern side.

Unfortunately there is no progress to report about getting the man in Finland to test for it, but I will try again.

Theconqueror
05-03-2018, 12:35 AM
I stumbled unpon an old post on this forum from Tomenable, which goes like that:

>>>
In several Projects of Family Tree DNA I've gathered all samples from people born before WW2 in Silesia.

Most of these men lived in the 19th, 18th, early 20th, but some in the 17th, 15th, one even died in the 12th century.

In total I have found 100 Y-DNA samples from descendants of pre-war inhabitants of Silesia. Here we go:

Sample/kit # - place of origin of most distant ancestor, ancestor's SURNAME (last SNP tested):

(I list modern names of settlements, if you copy & paste a name in Google, German version will show up too):

I1-M253 haplogroup - 13 samples from Silesia:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

J2-M172 haplogroup - 5 samples from Silesia:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

E1b1b haplogroup - 4 samples from Silesia:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

G2a haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

N1c haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

G2b haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

J1 haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

I2a haplogroup - only 1 sample:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

T haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Q haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

R1b-M269 haplogroup - only 11 samples from Silesia:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)
>>>

Did you see the individual from Silesia who is DF99? kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)

Theconqueror
05-03-2018, 11:57 AM
I wonder if there is a BAM file of this individual?

GoldenHind
05-03-2018, 05:30 PM
Did you see the individual from Silesia who is DF99? kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)

Yes, he is a German national living in Berlin who tested DF99+ back in 2015. His ancestor lived in what was then Neusalz an der Oder in the Prussian province of Silesia. The town was a major port on the Oder for the shipment of salt. The province was awarded to Poland after WWII and its German population was expelled.

He hasn't tested beyond DF99 and hasn't done the Big Y, hence no BAM file.

I have wondered if he might be a descendant of those Beakers who settled along the Oder river, but obviously that is highly speculative.

Incidentally I try not to use surnames when discussing people's results on a public forum, but Tomenable let the cat out of the bag.

GoldenHind
05-20-2018, 11:23 AM
A new DF99+ result in, distantly related to one previously confirmed. The country of origin is either Canton Bern in Switzerland or the Palatine in Germany, but which of the two is unclear.

Theconqueror
05-28-2018, 03:32 PM
Is this FTDNA group expected to continue in the context of the new EU law?

GoldenHind
05-28-2018, 03:50 PM
Is this FTDNA group expected to continue in the context of the new EU law?

Time will tell, but I hope to continue it. I have always tried to be very careful about respecting the privacy of project members, and not disclosing their identities publicly. I think however the new law could well be an impediment in seeking to locate prospective new DF99 individuals, as this has largely been done by looking at the matches of current project members.

GoldenHind
07-02-2018, 07:15 PM
A very interesting new member joined the DF99 Project today after testing DF99+ in the M343 R1b background test. He is in Iceland and has a name straight out of the Viking sagas. He lists an EKA in Helsingřr in Denmark in the early 18C. This place is known as Elsinor in English and is the setting for Shakespeare's Hamlet. It is directly across the Řresund sound from Sweden. He is the first confirmed DF99 from Denmark, although there are several from Sweden. Although slightly off the Baltic, it is yet another example of DF99 in the general area of the Baltic.

Telfermagne
07-12-2018, 11:03 PM
Saw some new markers under FGC864 today. Old news for you all most likely but I'm not able to log in often. Wondering about further useful testing options. Not sure what SNPs would be worth risking the dough.

GoldenHind
07-13-2018, 07:25 PM
Saw some new markers under FGC864 today. Old news for you all most likely but I'm not able to log in often. Wondering about further useful testing options. Not sure what SNPs would be worth risking the dough.

Thanks for pointing that out. I hadn't noticed it, so it is probably very recent. FTDNA has added FGC858 below FGC847>FGC864. I am not aware of anyone who has tested positive for FGC864 but negative for FGC858, but presumably they must exist. If so, they are not in the DF99 Project. It would definitely be worthwhile for you to test for it. Unfortunately it appears to me that FGC858 is not offered as an individual order.

Looking into this, I did find two more DF99>FGC847>FGC864>FGC858 etc. individuals who have done the Big Y who aren't in the project either.

GoldenHind
07-14-2018, 08:32 PM
A very interesting new member joined the DF99 Project today after testing DF99+ in the M343 R1b background test. He is in Iceland and has a name straight out of the Viking sagas. He lists an EKA in Helsingřr in Denmark in the early 18C. This place is known as Elsinor in English and is the setting for Shakespeare's Hamlet. It is directly across the Řresund sound from Sweden. He is the first confirmed DF99 from Denmark, although there are several from Sweden. Although slightly off the Baltic, it is yet another example of DF99 in the general area of the Baltic.

I am now in touch with this person, and he informs me that he has extended the line of his EKA several generations further back to central Jutland in Denmark in the late 15C. He has the P312 SNP pack on order, so we should soon know which subclade of DF99 he is in.

GoldenHind
07-20-2018, 07:45 PM
Looking into this, I did find two more DF99>FGC847>FGC864>FGC858 etc. individuals who have done the Big Y who aren't in the project either.

One of these two has now joined both the P312 and DF99 Projects. This brings the total membership of the DF99 Project to 120, a 20% increase since the beginning of the year. However it still lags well behind the other two smaller P312 subclades, L238 and DF19. They both had a head start so we still have a lot of catching up to do. As was noted elsewhere on this forum earlier this year, the DF99 Project was growing at the most rapid rate of any R1b project. Of course all three less numerous P312 subclades pale by comparison with the more numerous P312 subclades of L21, DF27 and U152, each of which has thousands of members.

Theconqueror
07-24-2018, 04:20 PM
I just received confirmation of being positive to FGC16982. As to what it means, I am not sure.

GoldenHind
07-24-2018, 07:52 PM
I just received confirmation of being positive to FGC16982. As to what it means, I am not sure.

We now have 43 DF99 Big Y results (there are a couple still pending) plus four other NGS results, two from Fullgenomes and two from the 1000 genomes Project. These 47 results comprise everything we know about the substructure of DF99, which can be seen on the Bigtree website maintained by Alex W.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=186

Everyone of the of the 47 is in one of three DF99 subclades, so the chance that there is another subclade directly below DF99 as yet undiscovered is very slim. The three subclades directly below DF99 are:

1) FGC847
2) FGC16982
3) BY3449/3450

It doesn't appear that any of the three are limited to any specific geographical location. This split into three subclades appears to have happened very soon after the birth of DF99 itself, so the three may have existed together for some time.

The second subclade, which we now know you are in, is further divided into three groups:

1) S16136
2) BY39134
3) S16982* (SNP below as yet undiscovered)

To date the most numerous of any DF99 subclade appears to be S16982>S16136>FGC16779, but that could just be the luck of the draw.

If you want to proceed testing one SNP at a time, your next step would be to order S16136.

GoldenHind
07-25-2018, 08:07 PM
A couple of new results in today, both from the P312 SNP Pack test.. First a new DF99>BY3449 result. The individual is in the UK with ancestry in Norfolk. His surname appears to derive from the Old Germanic personal name Hugibert, which was adopted as Hubert by the Normans. I have contacted him to ask him to join the DF99 Project.

Second a DF99 person of unknown ancestry, but with several close STR matches with DF99 individuals of northern German origin, has tested DF99>S16982>S16136>FGC16979.

GoldenHind
07-25-2018, 08:10 PM
We now have 43 DF99 Big Y results (there are a couple still pending) plus four other NGS results, two from Fullgenomes and two from the 1000 genomes Project. These 47 results comprise everything we know about the substructure of DF99, which can be seen on the Bigtree website maintained by Alex W.

http://www.ytree.net/DisplayTree.php?blockID=186

Everyone of the of the 47 is in one of three DF99 subclades, so the chance that there is another subclade directly below DF99 as yet undiscovered is very slim. The three subclades directly below DF99 are:

1) FGC847
2) FGC16982
3) BY3449/3450

It doesn't appear that any of the three are limited to any specific geographical location. This split into three subclades appears to have happened very soon after the birth of DF99 itself, so the three may have existed together for some time.

The second subclade, which we now know you are in, is further divided into three groups:

1) S16136
2) BY39134
3) S16982* (SNP below as yet undiscovered)

To date the most numerous of any DF99 subclade appears to be S16982>S16136>FGC16779, but that could just be the luck of the draw.

If you want to proceed testing one SNP at a time, your next step would be to order S16136.

Since I can no longer edit this, I point out that FGC16779 above is a typo and should read FGC16979.

GoldenHind
07-27-2018, 06:37 PM
Another new DF99 in today. This one was entirely predictable due to his markers and matches. He has ancestry back to the late 16th century in Austria, and is the first DF99 from Austria. However there are quite a few in the neighboring countries of Germany, Switzerland and northern Italy.

Roaring
07-31-2018, 01:49 AM
Another new DF99 in today. This one was entirely predictable due to his markers and matches. He has ancestry back to the late 16th century in Austria, and is the first DF99 from Austria. However there are quite a few in the neighboring countries of Germany, Switzerland and northern Italy.

Not in my matches as far as i understand, but still interesting as my Surname is very concentrated currently in Tyrol, where in Austria is he from?

GoldenHind
07-31-2018, 06:38 PM
Not in my matches as far as i understand, but still interesting as my Surname is very concentrated currently in Tyrol, where in Austria is he from?

He gives a location for his EKA in the area of Längenfeld in the Tyrol. There is no doubt that DF99 has a presence in the Alpine area. When and how it got there remains a mystery. It may even have originated there.

However in your case I suspect northern Germany is more likely.

GoldenHind
08-10-2018, 05:49 PM
Another new DF99+ in today from the M343 Backbone test, interesting for two reasons. His ancestry is from Lombardy in Italy. This is hardly surprising, since we know from the study of aDNA from the late 6th Century Lombard graveyard in Collegno that DF99 has been there at least since that time. We now have DF99 in men from the northern Italian areas of Veneto, Piedmont, Liguria, Lombardy and Tuscany. However there is only one from the remainder of Italy (from Sicily).

What is unusual is that he has the P312 modal value of 13 at DYS389-1, which is extremely rare in DF99, instead of the characteristic 12.

GoldenHind
08-14-2018, 07:22 PM
The Icelander with ancestry from Denmark has tested DF99>S16982>S16136>FGC16979 in the P312 SNP pack test. To date this appears to be the most numerous variety of DF99 and is extremely widespread, although most identified so far have English origins. My suspicion is that it probably spread from a location in northern Germany in the Migration Age, or perhaps even earlier.

keyhook
08-16-2018, 09:51 PM
Do you know any other case with the P312 modal value of 13 instead of 12 and where they are distributed?

Thank you GoldenHind! :)

GoldenHind
08-17-2018, 12:36 AM
Do you know any other case with the P312 modal value of 13 instead of 12 and where they are distributed?

Thank you GoldenHind! :)

A 12 at DYS389-1 is extremely rare in P312 (and probably all of M269), aside from DF99, where it is almost universal. I believe there are less than half a dozen in the DF99 project who have the P312 modal of 13 there. They can be easily spotted in the results pages of the DF99 Project.

However even though 389-1 is a pretty stable marker, all STR markers are subject to mutation. I don't know that I would make too much out of that single marker, unless a pattern begins to emerge. There is one group which shares the same English surname where three of them have the characteristic 12, but the fourth has a 13 instead. In this case, obviously the marker has mutated from 12 to 13 in one branch of the family.

I strongly suspect the first man to have the DF99 marker already had a 12 there, and that this has passed on to nearly all of his descendants.

We do have one group of fairly closely related individuals in the FGC16979 category who all have 389-1 = 13. Their history goes from Flanders in the 17th century to Spain to Mexico to the USA.

keyhook
08-17-2018, 10:13 AM
A 12 at DYS389-1 is extremely rare in P312 (and probably all of M269), aside from DF99, where it is almost universal. I believe there are less than half a dozen in the DF99 project who have the P312 modal of 13 there. They can be easily spotted in the results pages of the DF99 Project.

However even though 389-1 is a pretty stable marker, all STR markers are subject to mutation. I don't know that I would make too much out of that single marker, unless a pattern begins to emerge. There is one group which shares the same English surname where three of them have the characteristic 12, but the fourth has a 13 instead. In this case, obviously the marker has mutated from 12 to 13 in one branch of the family.

I strongly suspect the first man to have the DF99 marker already had a 12 there, and that this has passed on to nearly all of his descendants.

We do have one group of fairly closely related individuals in the FGC16979 category who all have 389-1 = 13. Their history goes from Flanders in the 17th century to Spain to Mexico to the USA.


Thank you for the interesting information GoldenHind, I'm very new in this and I start to understand only now how it works.
I'll be back with my P312 pack test result as soon as I will receive it :-)

GoldenHind
08-17-2018, 11:22 PM
Thank you for the interesting information GoldenHind, I'm very new in this and I start to understand only now how it works.
I'll be back with my P312 pack test result as soon as I will receive it :-)

For someone new to the subject, you seem to be doing very well. In my experience, the most difficult concept for newcomers to understand is the relevance of Ydna, and that it is passed on from father to son without any input or modification from the DNA of females. This follows the same pattern as surnames, which is why it is so relevant to family history.

However once one understands how Ydna works, it is really a very simple concept. Once one understands the significance of Ydna, one only needs to understand the difference between STR and SNP markers and how they function, which is also really pretty simple.

I look forward to seeing the results of your P312 SNP Pack test and how you compare with the other DF99 men from Italy.

Roaring
08-20-2018, 09:57 PM
He gives a location for his EKA in the area of Längenfeld in the Tyrol. There is no doubt that DF99 has a presence in the Alpine area. When and how it got there remains a mystery. It may even have originated there.

However in your case I suspect northern Germany is more likely.

As of having a lot of free time currently i've dug deeper into genealogy and found an interesting piece of information. There is a biographical book written on one of my relatives and it's states this:

https://i.imgur.com/LMmX5tF.png

From documents i've found the date of arrival is 1707, so i looked up the history of Oldenburg and it seems that at that time it was under the Danish rule.

I think as for now Oldenburg area is the most likely scenario, although i think there defenietly should be way to dig deeper, as there most likely some documents left from this era.

Dewsloth
08-20-2018, 11:41 PM
A 12 at DYS389-1 is extremely rare in P312 (and probably all of M269), aside from DF99, where it is almost universal. I believe there are less than half a dozen in the DF99 project who have the P312 modal of 13 there. They can be easily spotted in the results pages of the DF99 Project.

However even though 389-1 is a pretty stable marker, all STR markers are subject to mutation. I don't know that I would make too much out of that single marker, unless a pattern begins to emerge. There is one group which shares the same English surname where three of them have the characteristic 12, but the fourth has a 13 instead. In this case, obviously the marker has mutated from 12 to 13 in one branch of the family.

I strongly suspect the first man to have the DF99 marker already had a 12 there, and that this has passed on to nearly all of his descendants.

We do have one group of fairly closely related individuals in the FGC16979 category who all have 389-1 = 13. Their history goes from Flanders in the 17th century to Spain to Mexico to the USA.

I think only 3 members of the DF19 Group at FTDNA (out of over 360 in total) have DYS389-1 = 12.

GoldenHind
08-21-2018, 05:28 PM
That is probably pretty close to average for P312 outside of DF99. However I have noticed that there is one particular branch under DF27 where that is at least fairly common.

keyhook
08-24-2018, 07:56 PM
My surname is unique for my family in Italy, and it is considered a "difficult" surname and sometimes I have to spell it even to Italians. I would say that the etymology and pronunciation are more "spanish-friendly" than Italian. Even so, in Spain the surname doesn't exist.
Today I was reading my ancestors documents dated 1748 - 1751 - 1758. They are the oldest document I own right now, and I noticed that my surname was not the same as today at that time, it happens also to many other Italian surnames (my mother's surname, for instance) but in my case is the root word to change. No even one Y ancestors of mine ever emigrated to USA or abroad so I believe that Y dna matches of more than 25 markers are quite impossible for me.

Now, after reading the XVIII century documents, the surname is even stranger and I can't see any meaning in that word.

So I'm DF99 + the 13 where there should be a 12 + unique and strange antique surname from Y people who never moved from the Countee of Lodi during at least the last 300 years.

GoldenHind
08-25-2018, 06:20 PM
As of having a lot of free time currently i've dug deeper into genealogy and found an interesting piece of information. There is a biographical book written on one of my relatives and it's states this:

https://i.imgur.com/LMmX5tF.png

From documents i've found the date of arrival is 1707, so i looked up the history of Oldenburg and it seems that at that time it was under the Danish rule.

I think as for now Oldenburg area is the most likely scenario, although i think there defenietly should be way to dig deeper, as there most likely some documents left from this era.

Very interesting. There are actually two Oldenburgs in Germany. The first and most important is Oldenburg in Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) in NW Germany. The medieval counts of Oldenburg are the ancestors of many of Europe's royal houses, including Russia, Denmark etc. Prince Philip is also a descendant of this family, and so are Prince Charles and his sons.

The second Oldenburg is a town located on the south coast of the Baltic in Holstein.

You might be interested in reading the Wikipedia articles on Oldenburg, the House of Oldenburg, and Oldenburg in Holstein.

I wouldn't rule out either Oldenburg as a likely source for your ancestors, but if I had to wager, I would put my money on the latter. Keep us posted if you tuen up anything else.

Roaring
08-25-2018, 07:55 PM
Very interesting. There are actually two Oldenburgs in Germany. The first and most important is Oldenburg in Lower Saxony (Niedersachsen) in NW Germany. The medieval counts of Oldenburg are the ancestors of many of Europe's royal houses, including Russia, Denmark etc. Prince Philip is also a descendant of this family, and so are Prince Charles and his sons.

The second Oldenburg is a town located on the south coast of the Baltic in Holstein.

You might be interested in reading the Wikipedia articles on Oldenburg, the House of Oldenburg, and Oldenburg in Holstein.

I wouldn't rule out either Oldenburg as a likely source for your ancestors, but if I had to wager, I would put my money on the latter. Keep us posted if you tuen up anything else.

Thanks, im well aware of the Oldenburg house, but Oldenburg in Holstein is a bew thing to me, it seems to correlate with surname distribution aswell.

GoldenHind
09-04-2018, 06:03 PM
An interesting DF99+ in today, which confirms a previous result from 23andme. He has a Hispanic surname, though apparently not his ancestral one, and confirmed ancestry from Cuba. Since it appears that the European population of Cuba came exclusively from Spain, I think it is safe to count him as a confirmed example of DF99 of Iberian origin. We already have a DF99 from Brazil of Portuguese ancestry, so this is the second example. There is also a DF99 of Mexican origin with a fairly unusual Spanish surname who is very probably of Spanish origin. A note of caution though, as there is another DF99+ family from Spain whose origin in Flanders has been established.

It is interesting that the new DF99 of Cuban ancestry has only one match above 25 markers and that is a 7/67 match to a man in England.

The presence of DF99 in Iberia has long been something of a mystery to me. The 1000 Genomes Project included 100 men in Spain and another total of around 340 from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Columbia and Peru. Out of the total of around 440 only one, from Lima, Peru, was DF99+. Since Peru has had a fairly large amount of immigration from several other European countries, we cannot even be certain the Peruvian is of Spanish origin.

The cumulative evidence suggests that while DF99 is present in Iberia, it is very rare there, much more so than in central Europe.

The question remains is whether DF99 in Iberia is an ancient remnant, perhaps of the Celto-iberians, or whether it only arrived in the Migration Age with Germanic tribes such as the Vandals and Visigoths. I don't think either possibility can be ruled out at this point.

keyhook
09-05-2018, 06:47 PM
Lombardy was occupied by Spaniards during 180 years from 1525 until the beginning of XVIII century. Also, some northern European countries like Holland and Flanders were Spanish. I don't know the genetic consequences of that invasion for the Iberians, but my father and other Lombards still have a lot of Iberian ethnic autosoma from what I see in their familyfinder ethnicity estimation (on myheritage too)





An interesting DF99+ in today, which confirms a previous result from 23andme. He has a Hispanic surname, though apparently not his ancestral one, and confirmed ancestry from Cuba. Since it appears that the European population of Cuba came exclusively from Spain, I think it is safe to count him as a confirmed example of DF99 of Iberian origin. We already have a DF99 from Brazil of Portuguese ancestry, so this is the second example. There is also a DF99 of Mexican origin with a fairly unusual Spanish surname who is very probably of Spanish origin. A note of caution though, as there is another DF99+ family from Spain whose origin in Flanders has been established.

It is interesting that the new DF99 of Cuban ancestry has only one match above 25 markers and that is a 7/67 match to a man in England.

The presence of DF99 in Iberia has long been something of a mystery to me. The 1000 Genomes Project included 100 men in Spain and another total of around 340 from Mexico, Puerto Rico, Columbia and Peru. Out of the total of around 440 only one, from Lima, Peru, was DF99+. Since Peru has had a fairly large amount of immigration from several other European countries, we cannot even be certain the Peruvian is of Spanish origin.

The cumulative evidence suggests that while DF99 is present in Iberia, it is very rare there, much more so than in central Europe.

The question remains is whether DF99 in Iberia is an ancient remnant, perhaps of the Celto-iberians, or whether it only arrived in the Migration Age with Germanic tribes such as the Vandals and Visigoths. I don't think either possibility can be ruled out at this point.

GoldenHind
09-09-2018, 12:03 PM
A new DF99 example in this week from the Big Y. A man in Holland who has ancestry in the northeastern area of that country back to the early 17C tested DF99>FGC16982>FGC16136>FGC16979>BY15482. He is the first man from Holland in the DF99 Project, but it was only a matter of time. The Genomes of the Netherlands Project study a few years ago found four DF99 men in that country out of a sample of 500, so we knew it had a presence there. It looks to me like the FGC16979 subclade stretches along the north European plain from Flanders in the west to what was formerly eastern Germany (now Poland since WW2) in the east, and possibly even further to the east.

Another man in the USA with a common English surname tested DF99>FGC16982 in the Big Y. This should be extended once his raw data is analyzed by Alex W.

GoldenHind
09-09-2018, 12:07 PM
DF99 appears to be much more common in northern Italy than in Iberia, so I would be very surprised if the origin of your DF99 line was in Iberia. The Iberian autosomes could have come in anytime in the last several hundred years.

Mlanting
09-10-2018, 10:24 AM
Hi there, we'll that will be my sample. I can trace my family line back to around 1640. There is evidence that me surname was already around in the NW part of Holland early as 1400. My family name suggests Germanic (Saxon?) roots although my Genoa 2.0 data suggests a 73% regional decent from Scandinavia, 11% UK, 10% Southern Europe and actual none from Western Europe. I have no idea what to make our of this although some matches on 24 marker in the UK and Ireland point to a possible (pre) Viking connection. Best, Menno

GoldenHind
09-10-2018, 11:29 AM
Hi there, we'll that will be my sample. I can trace my family line back to around 1640. There is evidence that me surname was already around in the NW part of Holland early as 1400. My family name suggests Germanic (Saxon?) roots although my Genoa 2.0 data suggests a 73% regional decent from Scandinavia, 11% UK, 10% Southern Europe and actual none from Western Europe. I have no idea what to make our of this although some matches on 24 marker in the UK and Ireland point to a possible (pre) Viking connection. Best, Menno

Since all of R1b-M269 in Europe is relatively recently related, 25 marker matches will include people with whom you have no connection within the last 4000 years or so.

Theconqueror
09-13-2018, 12:30 PM
The Colegno CL94 on Gedmatch

Kit Num: Z104813
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
MDLP K16 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 35.74
2 Caucasian 21.99
3 Steppe 20.52
4 NorthEastEuropean 20.41


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish_Spain @ 6.251626
2 German_Germany @ 6.317736
3 French_France @ 6.351032
4 Spanish_Baleares @ 6.480787
5 French_NorthwestFrance @ 6.956025
6 French_EastFrance @ 7.131173
7 Provencal_Provence @ 7.834393
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 8.132635
9 Spanish_Extremadura @ 9.191785
10 Italian_Bergamo @ 9.335073
11 French_WestFrance @ 9.558508
12 Spanish_Galicia @ 9.688728
13 Spanish_Andalucia @ 9.904958
14 Welsh_Wales @ 10.219495
15 Spanish_Murcia @ 10.331415
16 Spanish_Valencia @ 10.356178
17 Scottish_Grampian @ 10.367092
18 English_Kent @ 10.535824
19 German_SouthGermany @ 10.590732
20 Scottish_Fife @ 10.631095

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_France +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 3.468679


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Germany +25% Greek_Thessaloniki +25% Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078206


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Serbia @ 2.953208
2 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.960322
3 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.985458
4 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.993921
5 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.998399
6 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + French_SouthFrance + Italian_Bergamo @ 3.007982
7 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 3.014373
8 German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Serbia + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.014983
9 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + French_France @ 3.030352
10 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + Italian_Bergamo + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.031044
11 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo @ 3.037704
12 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Italian_Bergamo + Pole_EastPoland @ 3.055428
13 Basque_Spain + German_Germany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 3.067595
14 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Italian_Bergamo + Pole_EastPoland @ 3.068882
15 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + German_Germany + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 3.071555
16 German_Germany + German_Germany + Greek_Thessaloniki + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078206
17 German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078804
18 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Serbian_Serbia @ 3.086179
19 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + French_France + Italian_Bergamo + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.105623
20 Basque_Spain + German_Germany + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia @ 3.114190

Theconqueror
09-13-2018, 03:09 PM
Global 25 Fit check for CL94

Input Group Name Details Fit
1 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Baleares HG01615 2.728
2 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Baleares Average 2.756
3 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Custom AGUser_MassamToulouse 2.818
4 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Andalucia HG01619 2.912
5 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French67 2.913
6 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Aragon HG01673 2.917
7 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French33 2.962
8 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Central_Europe I4885 2.98
9 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French9 2.988
10 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cataluna HG01537 3.005
11 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Central_Europe I5520 3.084
12 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Baleares HG01613 3.112
13 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Austrian Austria10 3.113
14 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ45 3.118
15 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cataluna Average 3.16
16 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Valencia HG01605 3.161
17 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Andalucia Average 3.164
18 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French3 3.189
19 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French Average 3.191
20 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo Average 3.208
21 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo HGDP01147 3.229
22 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Valencia Average 3.235
23 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Aragon Average 3.243
24 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Central_Europe E09538 3.253
25 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha Average 3.254
26 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Germany_Roman FN_2 3.261
27 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Germany_Roman Average 3.261
28 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French46 3.281
29 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Extremadura HG01510 3.29
30 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French36 3.294
31 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cantabria HG01513 3.31
32 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Murcia Average 3.314
33 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cantabria Average 3.323
34 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Custom AGUser_Massam 3.329
35 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Hungary Average 3.342
36 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon HG01506 3.37
37 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_East French24148 3.389
38 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French32 3.394
39 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Valencia HG01607 3.432
40 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ28 3.444
41 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Custom AGUser_Massam_father 3.456
42 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French4 3.459
43 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Central_Europe I5524 3.461
44 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Baleares HG01625 3.508
45 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Hungary_BA I7043 3.515
46 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French40 3.541
47 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Central_Europe I6581 3.548
48 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_East Average 3.582
49 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cantabria HG01679 3.582
50 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon Average 3.59
51 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_South SouthFrench3326 3.599
52 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Belgian Belgium6 3.615
53 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo HGDP01153 3.617
54 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha HG01503 3.646
55 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Balkans_BA I2165 3.656
56 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 German German81 3.657
57 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Extremadura Average 3.657
58 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_East French24124 3.685
59 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo S_Bergamo-1 3.692
60 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French50 3.741
61 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Hungary_BA Average 3.752
62 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Maros Average 3.756
63 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French20 3.772
64 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Cantabria HG01512 3.773
65 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_South Average 3.775
66 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Custom AGUser_Rabai 3.781
67 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Belgian Belgium25 3.785
68 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 German German83 3.787
69 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Portuguese Average 3.795
70 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha HG02238 3.804
71 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 German German48 3.817
72 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo HGDP01155 3.818
73 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italian_Bergamo HGDP01152 3.827
74 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French8 3.84
75 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Balkans_BA I4332 3.847
76 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Scythian_Hungary Average 3.867
77 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon HG01501 3.869
78 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Andalucia HG01620 3.874
79 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Extremadura HG01527 3.876
80 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Murcia HG01617 3.876
81 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Andalucia HG01623 3.886
82 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Custom AGUser_conqueror 3.886
83 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Italy_Medieval_Collegno CL47 3.891
84 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_East French24075 3.899
85 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Aragon HG01676 3.907
86 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Austrian Austria4 3.909
87 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Murcia HG01699 3.925
88 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French22 3.928
89 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Balkans_BA Average 3.935
90 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French_East French23919 3.949
91 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Northern_Italy I2478 3.956
92 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha HG01746 3.958
93 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Portuguese Portugal2 3.965
94 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Beaker_Northern_Italy Average 3.968
95 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Portuguese Portugal8 3.995
96 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Balkans_BA I4331 3.999
97 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Valencia HG01606 4.01
98 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 French French59 4.017
99 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Belgian Belgium18 4.028
100 Italy_Medieval_Collegno:CL94 Spanish_Murcia HG01618 4.03

Theconqueror
09-13-2018, 03:15 PM
My own Global 25 nMonte runner without individual custom references;

Rank Input Group Name Fit
4 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French Average 2.635
5 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East French23919 2.656
7 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Italy_Medieval_Collegno Average 2.759
9 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Average 2.769
10 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Italy_Medieval_Collegno CL63 2.802
11 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French20 2.82
12 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East Average 2.823
13 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French13 2.84
14 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German72 2.907
16 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium25 2.931
17 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French9 2.938
18 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French67 2.943
19 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German48 3.01
20 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German53 3.07
21 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium14 3.079
22 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium3 3.079
23 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium23 3.106
24 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium20 3.146
25 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French44 3.2
26 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French59 3.201
27 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French68 3.211
28 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East French24148 3.222
29 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Italy_Medieval_Collegno CL47 3.293
30 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French27 3.332
31 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium22 3.343
32 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East French24433 3.364
33 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Beaker_Central_Europe I4888 3.366
34 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hungary_Medieval_Szolad Average 3.368
35 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Beaker_Central_Europe I4887 3.37
36 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French60 3.385
37 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French61 3.395
38 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French43 3.399
39 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French55 3.42
41 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French45 3.452
42 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German43 3.455
44 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Beaker_Hungary Average 3.476
45 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French34 3.485
46 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German38 3.485
47 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French29 3.489
48 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium1 3.49
49 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium5 3.493
50 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French48 3.501
51 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Beaker_Southern_France I3874 3.502
52 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Italy_Medieval_Collegno CL57 3.521
53 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French33 3.551
54 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French42 3.566
55 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French50 3.571
56 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Scottish Scottish23 3.58
57 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German60 3.603
58 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French12 3.617
59 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium27 3.647
60 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German33 3.674
61 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German37 3.679
62 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Beaker_Central_Europe I0113 3.696
63 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium9 3.699
64 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German22 3.701
65 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German74 3.705
66 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French39 3.706
67 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French46 3.712
68 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French21 3.713
69 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East French24124 3.724
70 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French40 3.73
71 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French22 3.732
72 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German54 3.733
73 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium18 3.761
74 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German81 3.762
75 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Austrian Austria11 3.768
76 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ45 3.784
77 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ23 3.803
78 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hallstatt_Bylany Average 3.827
79 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Austrian Austria14 3.829
80 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hallstatt_Bylany DA111 3.833
81 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Hungary_Medieval_Szolad SZ38 3.844
82 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French1 3.857
83 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German30 3.86
84 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Spanish_Cantabria HG01512 3.86
85 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French32 3.872
86 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French French3 3.874
87 Custom:AGUser_conqueror English_Cornwall HG00235 3.884
88 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Spanish_Valencia HG01606 3.885
89 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Italy_Medieval_Collegno CL94 3.886
90 Custom:AGUser_conqueror French_East French24118 3.893
91 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German83 3.925
92 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German66 3.931
93 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium11 3.933
94 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Belgian Belgium10 3.934
95 Custom:AGUser_conqueror English_Cornwall HG00239 3.937
96 Custom:AGUser_conqueror English HG01790 3.944
97 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German Average 3.953
98 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German82 3.97
99 Custom:AGUser_conqueror Spanish_Valencia Average 3.97
100 Custom:AGUser_conqueror German German85 3.973

ADW_1981
09-13-2018, 03:53 PM
Lombardy was occupied by Spaniards during 180 years from 1525 until the beginning of XVIII century. Also, some northern European countries like Holland and Flanders were Spanish. I don't know the genetic consequences of that invasion for the Iberians, but my father and other Lombards still have a lot of Iberian ethnic autosoma from what I see in their familyfinder ethnicity estimation (on myheritage too)

I really don't think DF99+ is Iberian. Most certainly there has been more recent movement to the region from the north in small bursts, such as nobles defending the Christian territories. While certainly not at mass repopulation levels, certainly this was recorded in history and would have left their Y haplotypes in minority.

R1b-P312+ entered Iberia around 2500 + or - a few hundred years and mostly left branches of DF27+ that had already begun to differentiate north of the Pyrenees.

ADW_1981
09-13-2018, 04:00 PM
Hi there, we'll that will be my sample. I can trace my family line back to around 1640. There is evidence that me surname was already around in the NW part of Holland early as 1400. My family name suggests Germanic (Saxon?) roots although my Genoa 2.0 data suggests a 73% regional decent from Scandinavia, 11% UK, 10% Southern Europe and actual none from Western Europe. I have no idea what to make our of this although some matches on 24 marker in the UK and Ireland point to a possible (pre) Viking connection. Best, Menno

Depends on how close the STR are in UK/Ireland, but most certainly Saxons left a degree of presence in England, and through subsequent migrations, to Ireland. DF99 is rare enough overall to be Germanic in England (if we acknowledge these haplotypes are just a subset of Saxon men, who are in turn a minority amongst many Iron Age Celts)

keyhook
09-18-2018, 08:18 PM
I understand I'm DF99+ but there are other positive SNPs too (?) I would like to know if they can be useful for my research and how.
Thank you for your help :-)


A11710-, A11711-, A11712-, A15807-, A15808 *, A15809-, A223-, A259-, A431-, BY16680-, BY16690-, BY16692-, BY16696-, BY16698-, BY16699-, BY1713-, BY18740 *, BY2285-, CTS12684+, CTS4466 *, CTS5330 *, CTS9416-, DF19-, DF21-, DF25-, DF27 *, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF85-, DF96-, DF98-, DF99+, FGC20747-, FGC20764-, FGC31923-, FGC31929-, FGC31939-, FGC3861 *, FGC4077-, FGC4133-, FGC42003-, FGC42006-, FGC42011-, FGC5494-, FGC5780-, FGC8739-, GG445-, GG460-, L1065-, L11+, L151+, L2-, L21-, L226-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L388+, L389+, L459-, L47-, L478+, L48-, L51 *, L513-, L555-, L754+, M12149 *, M222-, M269+, M343 *, M697-, M73-, P25+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312 *, PF6289 *, PF6404+, PF6414+, PF6535+, PF7559-, PF7560-, PF7562-, PF7564-, PF7566-, PF7568-, PF7572-, PF7573-, PF7575-, PH155 *, PH2558-, PH4238-, S1026-, S1051-, S3058-, S5668-, S588-, S5982-, S6365-, S691-, S764 *, U106-, U152-, U198-, V1636-, V88-, Y31466 *, Y31467-, Y31468-, Y410+, Z156 *, Z16433-, Z16434-, Z16437-, Z18-, Z192-, Z195-, Z198 *, Z209 *, Z2103-, Z2105-, Z2185-, Z225-, Z245-, Z251-, Z253-, Z255-, Z260-, Z290-, Z29758 *, Z29764-, Z29765-, Z29766-, Z29767-, Z29782-, Z29784 *, Z29799-, Z29802-, Z3000-, Z326-, Z34609-, Z36-, Z367-, Z4161 *, Z43 *, Z49-, Z8-, ZZ12_1-, ZZ19_1-, ZZ7_1-

GoldenHind
09-20-2018, 02:14 PM
I understand I'm DF99+ but there are other positive SNPs too (?) I would like to know if they can be useful for my research and how.
Thank you for your help :-)


A11710-, A11711-, A11712-, A15807-, A15808 *, A15809-, A223-, A259-, A431-, BY16680-, BY16690-, BY16692-, BY16696-, BY16698-, BY16699-, BY1713-, BY18740 *, BY2285-, CTS12684+, CTS4466 *, CTS5330 *, CTS9416-, DF19-, DF21-, DF25-, DF27 *, DF41-, DF49-, DF63-, DF85-, DF96-, DF98-, DF99+, FGC20747-, FGC20764-, FGC31923-, FGC31929-, FGC31939-, FGC3861 *, FGC4077-, FGC4133-, FGC42003-, FGC42006-, FGC42011-, FGC5494-, FGC5780-, FGC8739-, GG445-, GG460-, L1065-, L11+, L151+, L2-, L21-, L226-, L23+, L238-, L278+, L388+, L389+, L459-, L47-, L478+, L48-, L51 *, L513-, L555-, L754+, M12149 *, M222-, M269+, M343 *, M697-, M73-, P25+, P297+, P310+, P311+, P312 *, PF6289 *, PF6404+, PF6414+, PF6535+, PF7559-, PF7560-, PF7562-, PF7564-, PF7566-, PF7568-, PF7572-, PF7573-, PF7575-, PH155 *, PH2558-, PH4238-, S1026-, S1051-, S3058-, S5668-, S588-, S5982-, S6365-, S691-, S764 *, U106-, U152-, U198-, V1636-, V88-, Y31466 *, Y31467-, Y31468-, Y410+, Z156 *, Z16433-, Z16434-, Z16437-, Z18-, Z192-, Z195-, Z198 *, Z209 *, Z2103-, Z2105-, Z2185-, Z225-, Z245-, Z251-, Z253-, Z255-, Z260-, Z290-, Z29758 *, Z29764-, Z29765-, Z29766-, Z29767-, Z29782-, Z29784 *, Z29799-, Z29802-, Z3000-, Z326-, Z34609-, Z36-, Z367-, Z4161 *, Z43 *, Z49-, Z8-, ZZ12_1-, ZZ19_1-, ZZ7_1-

Those with the plus marks are ones you have, and are all higher on the R1b tree than DF99, so they are markers all DF99 men have. Those with an asterisk/star are ones which FTDNA was unable to get a result. Odd that you have a P312* result, as I don't believe I have never seen a case before where FTDNA was unable to make a call on that marker. However all men who are DF99+are also P312+, so you need not worry about that. Those markers with a negative sign are ones you don't have, and are all to be expected for someone in the DF99 subclade. For example L21, L238 and U152 are different subclades of P312, and one can only be positive for one subclade of P312, which in your case is DF99. In other words you can safely ignore all of them except the DF99+ result.

GoldenHind
09-20-2018, 02:17 PM
The Colegno CL94 on Gedmatch

Kit Num: Z104813
Threshold of components set to 1.000
Threshold of method set to 0.25%
Personal data has been read. 20 approximations mode.
Gedmatch.Com
MDLP K16 Modern 4-Ancestors Oracle
This program is based on 4-Ancestors Oracle Version 0.96 by Alexandr Burnashev.
Questions about results should be sent to him at: [email protected]
Original concept proposed by Sergey Kozlov.
Many thanks to Alexandr for helping us get this web version developed.

MDLP K16 2xOracle and OracleX4

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 35.74
2 Caucasian 21.99
3 Steppe 20.52
4 NorthEastEuropean 20.41


Finished reading population data. 517 populations found.
16 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Spanish_Spain @ 6.251626
2 German_Germany @ 6.317736
3 French_France @ 6.351032
4 Spanish_Baleares @ 6.480787
5 French_NorthwestFrance @ 6.956025
6 French_EastFrance @ 7.131173
7 Provencal_Provence @ 7.834393
8 Spanish_Cataluna @ 8.132635
9 Spanish_Extremadura @ 9.191785
10 Italian_Bergamo @ 9.335073
11 French_WestFrance @ 9.558508
12 Spanish_Galicia @ 9.688728
13 Spanish_Andalucia @ 9.904958
14 Welsh_Wales @ 10.219495
15 Spanish_Murcia @ 10.331415
16 Spanish_Valencia @ 10.356178
17 Scottish_Grampian @ 10.367092
18 English_Kent @ 10.535824
19 German_SouthGermany @ 10.590732
20 Scottish_Fife @ 10.631095

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_France +50% Italian_Bergamo @ 3.468679


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% German_Germany +25% Greek_Thessaloniki +25% Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078206


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Serbia @ 2.953208
2 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.960322
3 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.985458
4 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Dutch_Netherlands + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.993921
5 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Lipsian_(Saxony) + Italian_Bergamo @ 2.998399
6 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + French_SouthFrance + Italian_Bergamo @ 3.007982
7 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 3.014373
8 German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Serbian_Serbia + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.014983
9 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + French_France @ 3.030352
10 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + English_Kent + Italian_Bergamo + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.031044
11 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo @ 3.037704
12 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Italian_Bergamo + Pole_EastPoland @ 3.055428
13 Basque_Spain + German_Germany + Macedonian_Macedonia + Macedonian_Macedonia @ 3.067595
14 Basque_France + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + Italian_Bergamo + Pole_EastPoland @ 3.068882
15 French_SouthFrance + German_Germany + German_Germany + Greek_Thessaloniki @ 3.071555
16 German_Germany + German_Germany + Greek_Thessaloniki + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078206
17 German_Germany + Italian_Bergamo + Macedonian_Macedonia + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.078804
18 Basque_Spain + Bulgarian_Bulgaria + German_Germany + Serbian_Serbia @ 3.086179
19 Bulgarian_Bulgaria + French_France + Italian_Bergamo + Spanish_Pais_Vasco @ 3.105623
20 Basque_Spain + German_Germany + Kosovar_Kosovo + Serbian_Serbia @ 3.114190

Thanks for running these analyses. I freely confess I have no understanding of this process, and it is all essentially gibberish to me. Can you draw any conclusions from these various runs?

Roaring
09-22-2018, 07:42 PM
Thanks for running these analyses. I freely confess I have no understanding of this process, and it is all essentially gibberish to me. Can you draw any conclusions from these various runs?

Autosomally speaking this man is SW European with no obvious NW ancestry, which would've been expected to a degree as we generally suspect that main sourse of DF-99 are Germanic tribes.

GoldenHind
09-23-2018, 01:16 PM
Autosomally speaking this man is SW European with no obvious NW ancestry, which would've been expected to a degree as we generally suspect that main sourse of DF-99 are Germanic tribes.

One has to keep in mind that the Y chromosome is only a very small part of one's entire autosomes. I assume half of it would have come from his mother.

I am away from home at present, but I remember the study itself indicated about a third of CL94's DNA profile matched the others in the cemetery who were of presumed Germanic Lombardic origin (CEU).

GoldenHind
09-23-2018, 01:16 PM
Deleted double post

rms2
09-23-2018, 01:29 PM
One has to keep in mind that the Y chromosome is only a very small part of one's entire autosomes. I assume half of it would have come from his mother.

I am away from home at present, but I remember the study itself indicated about a third of CL94's DNA profile matched the others in the cemetery who were of presumed Germanic Lombardic origin (CEU).

That's right: one inherits 23 pairs of chromosomes, half from his father and half from his mother. One pair, x and y, are the sex chromosomes. The other 22 comprise autosomal dna.

One has to be careful when looking at the results of a single ancient individual that he doesn't read too much into them. A single individual with a unique personal history could be exceptional. A few generations of mixing can make a world of difference.

One has to look at a number of samples and come as close to a population profile as he can.

keyhook
09-29-2018, 05:54 PM
I'm learning and I don't understand what the R1b1a1a2a1a2 thing is.
do they come from different haplogroups or are all DF99?


Thank you :-)

keyhook
10-03-2018, 10:46 AM
Deleted double post

apmarkey
11-13-2018, 05:17 AM
hi fellow DF99rs, I haven't logged in some time. what additional SNP would be recommended? i'd be able to represent several others with variations on my surname Markey

GoldenHind
11-13-2018, 06:56 PM
hi fellow DF99rs, I haven't logged in some time. what additional SNP would be recommended? i'd be able to represent several others with variations on my surname Markey

The best test is always the Big Y. We now have around 50 DF99 Big Y results, and everything we know about the substructure of DF99 comes from them. Everyone of them so far falls into one of three different subclades known to be directly below DF99. At this point it seems unlikely that there is a further subclade directly below DF99 yet to be discovered. These three are characterized by markers FGC847, FGC16982 and BY3449/3450. Each of these also has a further substructure. FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979 appears to be the most common. I might add that there doesn't appear to be any significant differences in the distribution of the three subclades. They are all concentrated in central Europe and England.

If you don't want to spring for the Big Y at this time, a good less expensive alternative to the Big Y is the P312 SNP pack. This will test for the above mentioned three markers, plus at least one additional further step.

The other alternative is to test the above markers individually, either one at a time or all at once, but this is likely to be more expensive in the long run than the P312 SNP pack, unless one has reason to suspect which of the three is more likely.

GoldenHind
11-13-2018, 07:51 PM
I'm learning and I don't understand what the R1b1a1a2a1a2 thing is.
do they come from different haplogroups or are all DF99?


Thank you :-)

Sorry for the belated response.

I'm not sure where you got that. I believe FTDNA has ceased to use these designations, as they are confusing and not standard. I think ISOGG may still be using them. ISOGG lists R-P312 as R1b1a2a1a2, with the addition of another letter for each P312 subclade. In the case of DF99 the letter following the final 2 is an f.

GoldenHind
11-27-2018, 12:33 AM
I read elsewhere on this forum that FTDNA data shows 156 men in their database have tested positive for DF99. Yet there are only 133 members of the DF99 project, and some of these have yet to confirm their predicted DF99+ status. So there are probably somewhere around thirty men who have tested DF99+ who are not in the project.

jdean
11-27-2018, 08:21 AM
I read elsewhere on this forum that FTDNA data shows 156 men in their database have tested positive for DF99. Yet there are only 133 members of the DF99 project, and some of these have yet to confirm their predicted DF99+ status. So there are probably somewhere around thirty men who have tested DF= who are not in the project.

Is that via BigY results ?

Frithnanth
11-27-2018, 10:19 AM
I think they saw it on FTDNA Haplotree report.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R

27312

jdean
11-27-2018, 12:32 PM
I think they saw it on FTDNA Haplotree report.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R

27312

Thanks, did look there after the previous post but see you have to ask for a country report : )

MitchellSince1893
11-27-2018, 01:17 PM
Is that via BigY results ?
It includes anyone who has tested positive for a DF99 or subclade SNP via FTDNA testing i.e. people that just ordered a single SNP test, or a SNP panel.

jdean
11-27-2018, 02:31 PM
It includes anyone who has tested positive for a DF99 or subclade SNP via FTDNA testing i.e. people that just ordered a single SNP test, or a SNP panel.

Yes, to be fair it's rather good : )
Mind I'm having trouble trying to make the nos. add up in the section I'm looking at but that's probably me : ))))

GoldenHind
11-27-2018, 08:53 PM
I think they saw it on FTDNA Haplotree report.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/y-dna-haplotree/R

27312

Yes, that is what I was referring to. Like jdean, I am having a problem getting the numbers to add up to the totals displayed.

I also note that there are DF99+ tested people in the DF99 project who list paternal ancestry from Denmark, Holland, Belgium/Flanders, Austria, Portugal, and Lithuania (and possibly others that don't come to mind) who do not appear on this chart.

Obviously there is a problem somewhere.

EDIT: Add Poland and the Czech Republic to the above list.

MitchellSince1893
11-28-2018, 12:12 AM
Yes, that is what I was referring to. Like jdean, I am having a problem getting the numbers to add up to the totals displayed
Just making sure you both realize there is more than one page to look at to get the total.

2nd page of df99 has
Wales: 2
Poland: 2
Mexico: 2
Denmark: 2
Slovakia: 1
Ukraine: 1
Spain: 1
Scotland: 1
Cuba: 1
Austria: 1

3rd page
Portugal: 1
Netherlands: 1
Belgium: 1
Czech Rep: 1
Luxembourg: 1
N Ireland: 1
Ireland: 1
Unknown: 39

GoldenHind
11-28-2018, 12:28 AM
Just making sure you both realize there is more than one page to look at to get the total.
.,.

Thanks, that probably explains it. How does one access the other page(s)?

MitchellSince1893
11-28-2018, 12:33 AM
Scroll down to see the > symbol to go to next page

MitchellSince1893
11-28-2018, 12:34 AM
Thanks, that probably explains it. How does one access the other page(s)?
Forgot to quote u in my previous post explaining how to go to next page

GoldenHind
11-28-2018, 01:42 AM
Scroll down to see the > symbol to go to next page

Thanks. I see it now.

jdean
11-28-2018, 01:47 AM
Forgot to quote u in my previous post explaining how to go to next page

Yes noticed these reports extended over multiple pages a little earlier : )

Just tried subtracting M222 from DF49 but made a complete balls of it, it's quite late here so I'm going put myself to bed in the hope of cognitive skills returning in the morrow : )

GoldenHind
11-28-2018, 07:10 PM
A couple of new DF99 of some interest. One has ancestry from Abruzzo in what I would call central Italy. Other than the one from Sicily, he is the only DF99 in Italy with origins outside the far north of that country. He has no matches above 25 markers, but one of his 25 marker matches is a DF99 from Piedmont in northern Italy. He has not yet joined the DF99 Project, but I will contact him and ask him to join.

Another tested DF99>FGC847>FGC864 in the Big Y some time ago, but has only recently joined the DF99 Project. He has identified the origin of his early immigrant ancestor to the USA as Southwark, which is now part of London.

GoldenHind
11-28-2018, 10:49 PM
Just making sure you both realize there is more than one page to look at to get the total.

2nd page of df99 has
Wales: 2
Poland: 2
Mexico: 2
Denmark: 2
Slovakia: 1
Ukraine: 1
Spain: 1
Scotland: 1
Cuba: 1
Austria: 1

3rd page
Portugal: 1
Netherlands: 1
Belgium: 1
Czech Rep: 1
Luxembourg: 1
N Ireland: 1
Ireland: 1
Unknown: 39

I have now compared the above results from FTDNA (including page 1 which is shown in a previous post) with the Country of Origin chart for DF99 Project members. Thus I am able to determine the country of origin numbers for those who have tested DF99+ but are not in the DF99 Project, Here they are, in descending order:

Germany 7
France 4
United Kingdom 2
Switzerland 2

One each:

England
Italy
Russia
Wales
Slovakia

Regarding those of German and Swiss origin, I have spotted several STR matches among project members who have German surnames and are listed as DF99+, but who have not joined the DF99 Project. Most if not all of them tested with Igenea (this is indicated by their email address being given as @igenea). This is a DNA testing company located in Switzerland, but whose testing is actually conducted by FTDNA and so they go into their system.

The single entry from Italy is probably the one from Abruzzo mentioned in my proceeding post, as he has not yet joined the DF99 project. The one from Wales is undoubtedly a DF99+ in the P312 Project who has not yet joined the DF99 Project. He is from the same family as others currently in the DF99 project.

The second example from Russia and the sole one from Slovakia are completely unknown to me.

Roaring
11-29-2018, 03:27 PM
The second example from Russia and the sole one from Slovakia are completely unknown to me.

May the second Russian be me? I remember i put Russia while during registration in some field like country of origin.

GoldenHind
11-29-2018, 06:54 PM
May the second Russian be me? I remember i put Russia while during registration in some field like country of origin.

No, it isn't you. I double checked., and you are one of two in the DF99 Project whose country of origin is listed as Denmark. There is only one person in the DF99 Project whose country of origin is listed as Russia, and that is the descendant of the Boyar family from Moscow. I looked again at his matches to see if he had a match from Russia, and he doesn't. Despite his having 111 STR markers, his closest match is to someone in Sweden at 25 markers.

Edit: I have checked the results from both the FTDNA Russian and Russian/Slavic DNA Projects, and the only DF99 in either project is the one mentioned above. Nor is there any DF99 person listed in the FTDNA Slovakia Project results. So the second Russian and the Slovakian remain a mystery.

GoldenHind
12-08-2018, 09:28 PM
I stumbled across a large group of related matching surname individuals in the FTDNA system who almost certainly are all DF99+. Many of them appear to be descendants of an early immigrant to Pennsylvania from NE Switzerland, though their surname has been anglicized to a very well known form in the USA. One of the latter has tested DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979>BY55515 in the Big Y, but has not joined either the P312 or DF99 Projects. There are a number of them in the FTDNA database, both with the original German surname and the anglicized version, and all have matching STR markers, including of course 12 at DYS389-1. One who has tested only to the P312+ level now has a test for DF99 on order.

They appear to be fairly closely related to another different surname family which appears to have roots from near Bern in Switzerland, None of this second group has tested beyond the predicted R-M269 level.

GoldenHind
12-11-2018, 07:27 PM
Another new FGC16979 [DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16879] from the Big Y. He is an Aussie with ancestry from a village in Wiltshire, just across the county line from Andover (which is in Hampshire). This is old Wessex, land of the West Saxons.

FGC16979 is shaping up to be the most common variety of DF99, and has clusters in different parts of Europe.

GoldenHind
12-20-2018, 06:29 PM
A new DF99+ (>FGC16982>Y53764) in from the Big Y. He has an English surname, from an Old English nickname, with ancestry only to early Virginia. He has several same surname STR matches, none of whom has tested beyond M269, and one of whom indicates an origin in Gloucestershire. All three people in the Y53764 category appear to be English in origin.

This one was entirely unpredictable, as he has the P312 modal 13 at DYS389-1 instead of the characteristic 12 of DF99. He is one of a very few DF99 with a 13 at that marker.

EDIT: I have now checked the FTDNA surname project for this man. Almost all of his surname STR matches have 389-1 = 12, so this is probably a case where there has been a mutation from 12 to 13 somewhere along his branch of the family.

GoldenHind
12-30-2018, 12:06 AM
New and surprising (and long delayed) Big Y results in today for a DF99 who is a Ukrainian national but has a Lithuanian surname found in Lithuania since the late 14th century. He is DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979>FGC17024>FGC16997>BY15473. The FGC16979 result is not surprising, as it appears to be the most common DF99 subclade and is found across much of Europe. Also there are a fair number with the same BY15473 marker, primarily of English origin, but all but one of them has additional markers downstream from BY15473. The only other person with the same terminal SNP is an Australian with ancestry from Gloucestershire in England, which is a long way from Ukraine or Lithuania. I suppose if one were looking for a common origin in the Iron Age, the Saxons would be the most likely explanation. There is certainly no shortage of their descendants in England, and it wouldn't surprise me if some went to the east along the south shore of the Baltic rather than across the North Sea to England. I wonder however if the common origin might instead be found in Bell Beaker trading routes from the early Bronze Age?

StevenLear
12-30-2018, 08:06 PM
A new DF99+ (>FGC16982>Y53764) in from the Big Y. He has an English surname, from an Old English nickname, with ancestry only to early Virginia. He has several same surname STR matches, none of whom has tested beyond M269, and one of whom indicates an origin in Gloucestershire. All three people in the Y53764 category appear to be English in origin.

This one was entirely unpredictable, as he has the P312 modal 13 at DYS389-1 instead of the characteristic 12 of DF99. He is one of a very few DF99 with a 13 at that marker.

EDIT: I have now checked the FTDNA surname project for this man. Almost all of his surname STR matches have 389-1 = 12, so this is probably a case where there has been a mutation from 12 to 13 somewhere along his branch of the family.

Hi, I am that DF99+ with the value of 13 at DYS389-1. My father tested to the 67 marker level at FTDNA and he has a value of 12 at 389-1.

GoldenHind
12-30-2018, 09:18 PM
Hi, I am that DF99+ with the value of 13 at DYS389-1. My father tested to the 67 marker level at FTDNA and he has a value of 12 at 389-1.

Thanks for pointing that out and welcome to this forum. Obviously the mutation from 12 to 13 at 389-1 in your line occurred with you! DYS389-1 tends to be a very stable marker, but all STR markers are subject to mutation.

GoldenHind
01-11-2019, 07:05 PM
A new DF99 in from the R1b M343 backbone test. His ancestry is from Lombardy in the far north of Italy. He has 111 markers, but no matches above the 25 marker level. He is in the P312 project, but has not yet joined the DF99 project. I will ask him to do so.

He has the P312 modal value of 13 at DYS389-1, rather than the 12 which characteristic of DF99. The other DF99 from Lombardy also has a 13 there as well. This is probably just a coincidence, but who knows?

EDIT: This person has now joined the DF99 Project. His ancestry is from Piedmont, not Lombardy.

GoldenHind
01-15-2019, 01:19 AM
I have mentioned previously that the DF99 subclade of FGC16979 is shaping up to be the largest DF99 subclade. Although this is technically only three steps below DF99 (DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979), each of those steps contains a numbers of markers (14 in all) which so far have equivalent positions, but this could change with further testing. Perhaps the rather odd ancestral distribution of this subclade is relevant to the history of DF99 as a whole, and perhaps to other P312 subclades as well.

The largest group of those who have tested FGC16979 are either of confirmed or highly probable English origin, with a solitary result listing North Wales. This is hardly surprising considering the enormous over weighting of samples from the British Isles and Ireland in the FTDNA database. However none indicate an origin in either Scotland or Ireland.

The second largest FGC16979 group indicates ancestry from the northern European plain, stretching from Flanders in the west through Holland, northern Germany and Denmark and on to Lithuania in the east. Their matches suggest this group is probably much larger than currently established. It quite likely extends to Sweden, though none of the Swedish DF99 have tested to the FGC16979 level yet. My working hypothesis is that this group is the primary source of the English group.

There is a smaller group from the Alpine area, but their matches suggest this will also be a larger group, though very probably much smaller than either of the above two. There are also two from Tuscany in northern Italy, a little farther afield.

Finally there are two from Iberia, one confirmed, the other probable.

However so far there really aren't any confirmed FGC16979 samples from the areas in between the above groups.

For a small subclade, DF99 has a very wide distribution in Europe, from Portugal in the west to Moscow in the east, from Sweden to the north to Sicily in the south. In the past I have focused on the Migration Age as the most probable explanation for their distribution, which is similar to that seen in U106, although obviously much less numerous. However I recently saw a reference on another thread of this forum which has expanded my outlook. This is an article by Johan Lang et al. (Moving Metals II: Provenancing Scandinavian Bronze Age Artifacts by Lead Isotope and Elemental Analysis) which appeared in the 2014 Journal of Archaeological Science. They performed an isotopic study of the copper in articles from the Nordic Bronze Age, and found that the metals did not come from local mines. The study concluded there was a steady supply of copper in the Nordic Bronze Age to Scandinavia from copper mines in the Alpine area, with the other main sources coming from Iberia and Sardinia. They concluded:

"Thus from the results presented here a new and complex picture emerges of possible connectivities and flows in the Bronze Age between Scandinavia and Europe."

This could of course be merely a coincidence, and no DF99 has been found in Sardinia. Or it could be at least a partial explanation for the somewhat unconnected locations of the various FGC16979 groups. If this is the case, it begs the question of whether DF99 went from the northern plain to the Alps and Iberia, or whether the reverse is the case. Even if true, this would not preclude further movement during the Migration Age. Of course furture testing could alter the present picture.

Such a population flow could also be highly relevant in the divided distribution of other P312 subclades, particularly DF27 and U152.

Theconqueror
01-25-2019, 02:08 PM
I am not entirely sure about your last complex migration route. It seems far fetch as you use trade routes to infer a potential gene flow. The only ancient DF99 found was a Lombard (Collegno) and P312 is a Bell Beaker phenomena. As far as I am concerned, I SIMPLY posit that DF99 is at its inception was part of the Dutch Beaker (Lower Rhine) and Central Beaker complex (Germany/Czech Republic). The offspring were later part of the Germanic confederation from Southern Scandinavia/Northern Germany area (Saxones, Seubi/Langobardi). Our DF99 Lombard ancient friend made it down to Northern Italy, while many left a trace through Germany and Britain through the usual migrations. The few Iberian DF99 could likely be Gothic folks migrating from Southern Scandinavia. The Alpine element can easily be explained through the Lombards south migration. My two cents.



I have mentioned previously that the DF99 subclade of FGC16979 is shaping up to be the largest DF99 subclade. Although this is technically only three steps below DF99 (DF99>FGC16982>S16136>FGC16979), each of those steps contains a numbers of markers (14 in all) which so far have equivalent positions, but this could change with further testing. Perhaps the rather odd ancestral distribution of this subclade is relevant to the history of DF99 as a whole, and perhaps to other P312 subclades as well.

The largest group of those who have tested FGC16979 are either of confirmed or highly probable English origin, with a solitary result listing North Wales. This is hardly surprising considering the enormous over weighting of samples from the British Isles and Ireland in the FTDNA database. However none indicate an origin in either Scotland or Ireland.

The second largest FGC16979 group indicates ancestry from the northern European plain, stretching from Flanders in the west through Holland, northern Germany and Denmark and on to Lithuania in the east. Their matches suggest this group is probably much larger than currently established. It quite likely extends to Sweden, though none of the Swedish DF99 have tested to the FGC16979 level yet. My working hypothesis is that this group is the primary source of the English group.

There is a smaller group from the Alpine area, but their matches suggest this will also be a larger group, though very probably much smaller than either of the above two. There are also two from Tuscany in northern Italy, a little farther afield.

Finally there are two from Iberia, one confirmed, the other probable.

However so far there really aren't any confirmed FGC16979 samples from the areas in between the above groups.

For a small subclade, DF99 has a very wide distribution in Europe, from Portugal in the west to Moscow in the east, from Sweden to the north to Sicily in the south. In the past I have focused on the Migration Age as the most probable explanation for their distribution, which is similar to that seen in U106, although obviously much less numerous. However I recently saw a reference on another thread of this forum which has expanded my outlook. This is an article by Johan Lang et al. (Moving Metals II: Provenancing Scandinavian Bronze Age Artifacts by Lead Isotope and Elemental Analysis) which appeared in the 2014 Journal of Archaeological Science. They performed an isotopic study of the copper in articles from the Nordic Bronze Age, and found that the metals did not come from local mines. The study concluded there was a steady supply of copper in the Nordic Bronze Age to Scandinavia from copper mines in the Alpine area, with the other main sources coming from Iberia and Sardinia. They concluded:

"Thus from the results presented here a new and complex picture emerges of possible connectivities and flows in the Bronze Age between Scandinavia and Europe."

This could of course be merely a coincidence, and no DF99 has been found in Sardinia. Or it could be at least a partial explanation for the somewhat unconnected locations of the various FGC16979 groups. If this is the case, it begs the question of whether DF99 went from the northern plain to the Alps and Iberia, or whether the reverse is the case. Even if true, this would not preclude further movement during the Migration Age. Of course furture testing could alter the present picture.

Such a population flow could also be highly relevant in the divided distribution of other P312 subclades, particularly DF27 and U152.

GoldenHind
02-02-2019, 10:52 PM
I am not entirely sure about your last complex migration route. It seems far fetch as you use trade routes to infer a potential gene flow. The only ancient DF99 found was a Lombard (Collegno) and P312 is a Bell Beaker phenomena. As far as I am concerned, I SIMPLY posit that DF99 is at its inception was part of the Dutch Beaker (Lower Rhine) and Central Beaker complex (Germany/Czech Republic). The offspring were later part of the Germanic confederation from Southern Scandinavia/Northern Germany area (Saxones, Seubi/Langobardi). Our DF99 Lombard ancient friend made it down to Northern Italy, while many left a trace through Germany and Britain through the usual migrations. The few Iberian DF99 could likely be Gothic folks migrating from Southern Scandinavia. The Alpine element can easily be explained through the Lombards south migration. My two cents.

As I mentioned, before coming across the study about the source of copper in bronze objects from Bronze Age Sweden, I had tended to look for the explanation of the modern distribution of DF99 from the movements of various Germanic tribes through Europe during the Migration Period. It is possible to relate just about every currently known example of DF99 to one of these migrations. However I don't think one should dismiss the possibility that at least some of the current DF99 distribution may be due to trade routes during the Bronze Age. The copper ore trade from Iberia and the Alpine area to Sweden, which was likely connected with the amber trade from the Baltic, does fit rather nicely with the rather disparate distribution of FGC16979. However it is not an either/or situation. Both scenarios may well have played a part.

As for the connection between DF99 and the Bell Beaker Culture, I am also keeping an open mind. The larger P312 subclades L21, DF27 and U152 have all been found in aDNA from the Beakers. The smaller subclades of L238, DF19 and L238 have not. That could change in the future. But I think it is also possible that they weren't part of the Beaker culture. Certainly all three have a very different modern distribution than the larger ones, and their distribution is more similar to U106 than to the rest of P312. As you know, arguments over the source of the Beakers are being waged on another thread on this forum. I think it's difficult to fit the three smaller subclades into an expansion point from the Beakers on the Lower Rhine, though it is certainly not impossible or even improbable. If DF99 was indeed part of the Beaker culture, I think the Beaker settlements on the Oder and Vistula rivers would be a better fit, at least for DF99. Wherever they were during the Beaker period, I suspect that the bulk of DF99 ended up on the northern European plain, and were at some point absorbed into the Jastorf culture as it expanded out of Jutland.

I merely suggest keeping an open mind about the various possibilities, and waiting to see where further developments take us.

Theconqueror
02-05-2019, 12:45 PM
I agree that there is a level of intricacy and complexity that suggest having an open mind about the inception of DF99.

GoldenHind
02-05-2019, 07:30 PM
The FTDNA DF99 Project has now reached 150 members, although there are about a dozen who haven't yet confirmed their probable DF99+ status, and a couple who are not DF99 and joined the project in error.

GoldenHind
02-07-2019, 08:19 PM
The FTDNA DF99 Project has now reached 150 members, although there are about a dozen who haven't yet confirmed their probable DF99+ status, and a couple who are not DF99 and joined the project in error.

It's too late to edit the above, but I should have mentioned that there are several confirmed DF99+ individuals in the P312 Project who have not joined the DF99 Project.