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Sergi
09-27-2017, 11:16 AM
Can someone explain to me how it's possible that sephardic Jewish kits match with Ashkenazi Jews? Last month I learned my mother (she has Imazighen Jewish ancestry) matches with alot of Ashkenazi Jews at Gedmatch. This made me conclude there must have been an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor in our family tree. Some persons told me thats not necessarily the case and that Sephardic Jews share DNA segments with the Ashkenazim. That I understand, ofcourse. They both descend of the same people from the Middle-East, but this is like 2000 years ago. How is it possible to genetically match this strong with people while the shared ancestors are from more then 1000 years back? Can this really make you match to more then 90 Ashkenazi Jews?

Another question; Is there someone with or who knows someone with a sephardic Jewish kit @ Gedmatch that doesn't have any Ashkenazi ancestors? I would like to see if other Sephardic Jews match to this many Ashkenazim also.

Nive1526
09-27-2017, 12:02 PM
Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#/media/File:Sepharadic_Migrations.jpg

Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
T892307

Sergi
09-27-2017, 01:21 PM
Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#/media/File:Sepharadic_Migrations.jpg

Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
T892307

First I want to say thanks for the kit-nr. I will look into that later this day. Second, I don't know if that can be the case in my situation. The Jewish family i come from (da Mesquita) is known to have resided in the Netherlands after coming from Portugal, then got sent to Suriname during the colonial era. Also, when there, they still used their Portuguese surname. Didn't Jews always changed their name into a common sounding name at the place they resided?

Edit:
When typing this I suddenly remembered that around the 1800's the Sephardic and Ashkenazi Jews became one of the poorest groups in Amsterdam and started to assimilate through marriage. Maybe a sephardic ancestor married an Ashkenazi girl. I still need to check when exactly this took place. Possibly I can find my answer there.

But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?

Nive1526
09-27-2017, 01:55 PM
But I understand that it's not possible to match this close with Ashkenazim if you're 100% sephardic? So a recent Ashkenazi ancestor is required?

Im not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?

Sergi
09-27-2017, 03:10 PM
Im not so well-read on autosomal matches, my thoughts. 100% Sephardic matching with Ashkenazis is certainly possible due to the sephardic intogression to the Ashkenazim communities and the size of matching segments is mostly dependent on how long ago this event took place.
Matches amongst Jews also appear to be more recent than they actually are due to endogamy. Ancestral components find together into larger segments more often if closer related descendants mate.
If I remember your past threads correctly, you have Eastern European ancestors on your paternal? side and match with Ashkenazim of more than 20cM size on most of your chromosomes.
What are your thoughts having both Ashkenazi and Sephardic or North African Jewish heritage from multiple sources?

Yes... I learned alot more about my family history since then. My father descends of crypto Jews from Russia (Blank family) which is Ashkenazi. I dind't know that back then. But thing is, regardless of my fathers dna, my mothers dna kit matches with ashkenazi Jews but she descends of the Sephardic branch (da Mesquita family). Thats what confused me. My mother also has a little Italian and a trace amount of east-european in her estimate. I thought maybe the eastern-european indicates a little Ashkenazi, but the myheritage specialist I spoke to on the phone told me he leans more towards the assumption that my mother is of Sephardic descend because he, also a sephardic Jew, also has traces of east-europe and italian, but has no eastern-european nor italian ancestors. I find that a little hard to believe though, or I didn't get him correctly (the connection wasn't that wonderful either). I think I'm gonna place my bet on the "sephardic man that married an ashkenazi girl in the 1800's before his descendand got sent to Suriname" theory

Pylsteen
09-27-2017, 03:54 PM
both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, also Italkim are closely related, probably come together in the Roman age.

Have you traced back the Sephardic ancestor to Amsterdam? If you need help with the Amsterdam Sephardim, you can ask. Maybe you know:
- Amsterdam marriages (https://archief.amsterdam/indexen/ondertrouwregisters_1565-1811/zoek/) before 1811:
- specific for Sephardim (https://www.dutchjewry.org/phpr/amsterdam/tim_sephard_marriages/amsterdam_tim_sephard_marriages_list.php):
- funeral registers (http://www.dutchjewry.org/phpr/amsterdam/port_isr_gem_burials/amsterdam_port_isr_gem_burials_list.php)of the Portuguese Jewish cemetery, Beth Haim.

Sergi
09-27-2017, 04:24 PM
both the Ashkenazi and Sephardi, also Italkim are closely related, probably come together in the Roman age.

Have you traced back the Sephardic ancestor to Amsterdam? If you need help with the Amsterdam Sephardim, you can ask. Maybe you know:
- Amsterdam marriages (https://archief.amsterdam/indexen/ondertrouwregisters_1565-1811/zoek/) before 1811:
- specific for Sephardim (https://www.dutchjewry.org/phpr/amsterdam/tim_sephard_marriages/amsterdam_tim_sephard_marriages_list.php):
- funeral registers (http://www.dutchjewry.org/phpr/amsterdam/port_isr_gem_burials/amsterdam_port_isr_gem_burials_list.php)of the Portuguese Jewish cemetery, Beth Haim.


I know his name was Laurens Aron de Mesquita (the Jewish ancestor in Suriname). Beyond him... Absolutely nothing. Searching if someone from the de Mesquita family married an Ashkenazi girl in the 1800's has no point. It can be a Jew from any Sephardic family, since it does not nessesarily have to be a de Mesquita family member. Maybe a 2/4 Ashkenazi, 2/4 sephardic daughter of this man married a de Mesquita leading to Laurens Aron de Mesquita. Genealogy can be really frustrating at times.

I will have to hire a genealogist to see if they can find something about the ancestors of L.A. de Mesquita and trace it back to Amsterdam. But as I think you know, as we say in the Netherlands, thats an expensive joke :P (Dutch saying). But seriously, Surinamese genealogy is very difficult. Some people I know that are of Surinamese descend don't even come further then 4 generations back in their ancestry. I don't own the needed expertise to really dig deep into it. I will have to wait until I can hire this genealogist and until then I will have to be satisfied with knowing the names of only two ancestors that brought Jewishness in our family (Laurens Aron de Mesquita (maternal) and Francina Wijnberg Blank (paternal)) and beyond that having to use my imagination and somewhat vague ethnicity estimates.

Pylsteen
09-27-2017, 04:35 PM
No, I don't know his name. I will hire a genealogist to see if they can find something, but as I think you know, as we say in the Netherlands, thats an expensive joke :P
But seriously, Surinamese genealogy is very difficult. Some people I know that are of Surinamese descend don't even come further then 4 generations back in their ancestry. I don't own the needed expertise to really dig deep into it

Yep... you can only hope that you can push further back, as you see, when you find a connection with the Sefardic community in Amsterdam (or London etc.), there is good chance to get back even further; if I remember well, the JHM (or other archives, both Amsterdam and in The Hague) have large libraries, I know there are books of Jewish families also from the Antilles, so likely there are some about the Jewish communities in Suriname. But, as you indicate, getting a name would be necessary first... I don't have knowledge about Suriname genealogy, it must indeed be difficult; I know from experience from Dutch East Indies that colonial sources are often full of hiatus. GL.

Sergi
09-27-2017, 04:50 PM
Yep... you can only hope that you can push further back, as you see, when you find a connection with the Sefardic community in Amsterdam (or London etc.), there is good chance to get back even further; if I remember well, the JHM (or other archives, both Amsterdam and in The Hague) have large libraries, I know there are books of Jewish families also from the Antilles, so likely there are some about the Jewish communities in Suriname. But, as you indicate, getting a name would be necessary first... I don't have knowledge about Suriname genealogy, it must indeed be difficult; I know from experience from Dutch East Indies that colonial sources are often full of hiatus. GL.

Indeed. The ideal situation would be tracing them back all the way to Morocco! But I assume that won't happen anytime soon. You never know what genealogy and genetic technology will do for us in the near future. I'm hopeful. On the other hand, I can't complain. Before all this, having Jewish ancestry was just a vague oral family story. Besides that there was no knowledge whether the Jewish ancestry was real in the first place and, given it was true, if it was Ashkenazi or Sephardic. Now I actually made these oral stories concrete and actually got two names and indications of what Jewish branch we are. Thats more then I could ever hope for three months ago.

emc
09-27-2017, 04:58 PM
Do you know when Laurens Aron de Mesquita was born?
You can find Surinamese birth records from 1777 to 1828 here: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS78-T9HJ-S?i=237&cat=222899

Jewish records start at page 238

Sergi
09-27-2017, 04:59 PM
Quite a number of Sephardic Jews dispersed into Northern and Northeastern Europe after they were expelled from Spain in 1492, resulting in a more recent shared ancestry.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardi_Jews#/media/File:Sepharadic_Migrations.jpg

Edit: This is a Tunisian Jewish kit from a genetic research program.
T892307

Do sephardic Jews score East-African in myheritage estimates? I mean ethnicities like Kenyan etc?

Nive1526
09-27-2017, 05:52 PM
Yes... I learned alot more about my family history since then. My father descends of crypto Jews from Russia (Blank family) which is Ashkenazi. I dind't know that back then. But thing is, regardless of my fathers dna, my mothers dna kit matches with ashkenazi Jews but she descends of the Sephardic branch (da Mesquita family). Thats what confused me. My mother also has a little Italian and a trace amount of east-european in her estimate. I thought maybe the eastern-european indicates a little Ashkenazi, but the myheritage specialist I spoke to on the phone told me he leans more towards the assumption that my mother is of Sephardic descend because he, also a sephardic Jew, also has traces of east-europe and italian, but has no eastern-european nor italian ancestors. I find that a little hard to believe though, or I didn't get him correctly (the connection wasn't that wonderful either). I think I'm gonna place my bet on the "sephardic man that married an ashkenazi girl in the 1800's before his descendand got sent to Suriname" theory

Your explanation seems more reasonable, but based on the Eastern Euro admixture, not the Italian.
I would expect both Sephardic and AJ to score Italian, Ashkenazim spent considerable time in Roman-era Italy before crossing the Alps and mediterranean ancestry is hard to disentangle, resulting in Sephardic Iberian ancestry being picked up as Italian. It's more reasonable to assume that only the Eastern Euro is specific to AJ.



Do sephardic Jews score East-African in myheritage estimates? I mean ethnicities like Kenyan etc?

I can't think of a reason why they should. Most of their non European and non-Levantine origin is derived from Berbers.
Never worked with myheritage or Sephardics though. Please don't assume on my J-M92 I have any elevated knowledge on these topics.:)

Do you know any living male descendants of your da Mesquita forefather?
A genealogist could result in nothing, while the Y-haplogroup always answers at least some questions of your unknown ancestry.

Sergi
09-27-2017, 06:07 PM
Your explanation seems more reasonable, but based on the Eastern Euro admixture, not the Italian.
I would expect both Sephardic and AJ to score Italian, Ashkenazim spent considerable time in Roman-era Italy before crossing the Alps and mediterranean ancestry is hard to disentangle, resulting in Sephardic Iberian ancestry being picked up as Italian. It's more reasonable to assume that only the Eastern Euro is specific to AJ.




I can't think of a reason why they should. Most of their non European and non-Levantine origin is derived from Berbers.
Never worked with myheritage or Sephardics though. Please don't assume on my J-M92 I have any elevated knowledge on these topics.:)

Do you know any living male descendants of your da Mesquita forefather?
A genealogist could result in nothing, while the Y-haplogroup always answers at least some questions of your unknown ancestry.

No, unfortunetaly. I know someone named de Mesquita that may be related in some way. Or I can ask someone else with that name (guess they're easy to find these days whit all the social media websites). But thats a little too much I think. Approaching strangers saying "Hey, we're probably related! Help me out?".

I asked if Sephardim score East-African because almost every Sephardim kit I ran the Jtest or EUtest on shows like 3 to 5% East-Africa. My mother also has a little East-African

Nive1526
09-27-2017, 09:19 PM
No, unfortunetaly. I know someone named de Mesquita that may be related in some way. Or I can ask someone else with that name (guess they're easy to find these days whit all the social media websites). But thats a little too much I think. Approaching strangers saying "Hey, we're probably related! Help me out?".


Another option is to rely on public results, like searching familytreedna projects.
There's one that lists a "Mesquita" from Portugal as R-SRY2627.
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b1c6/default.aspx?section=yresults

The easiest thing to google is this:
site:familytreedna surname

If ftdna provides the full name, place of residence or the dates of birth and death, sometimes it is possible to fit them into a genealogical tree of yours.
Otherwise these results are connected to the huge uncertainty of multiple-origin surnames or non-paternity events and therefore more or less useless.

coffeeprince
09-27-2017, 09:22 PM
My full Sephardic matches also seem to have a few pages full of Ashkenazi matches on FTDNA. I think it might be similar genetics - these full Ashkenazi matches are usually always 4+ generations back.

Sergi
09-28-2017, 01:55 PM
My full Sephardic matches also seem to have a few pages full of Ashkenazi matches on FTDNA. I think it might be similar genetics - these full Ashkenazi matches are usually always 4+ generations back.

Indeed. I ran the Jtest on several matching kits with that tunisian jewish kit and seen alot of Jewish matches get score more then 30 on the Jtest

coffeeprince
09-28-2017, 09:46 PM
Indeed. I ran the Jtest on several matching kits with that tunisian jewish kit and seen alot of Jewish matches get score more then 30 on the Jtest

I'm half Ashkenazi/half Sephardic but I only score 18 on the Jtest. Although the population group they give me usually is 50% Ashkenazi and 50% Sephardi, so that's perfectly correct.

eolien
09-29-2017, 01:31 PM
Where can i see the score on Jtest, or do you mean the ashkenazi percentage?

Sergi
09-29-2017, 02:21 PM
Yes? I don't understand your question? When you run the Jtest on a kit-nr you'll get a percentage for the ASHKENAZI score. Above 24% usually means 100% Ashkenazi Jewish

josh w.
12-07-2018, 12:52 AM
Can someone explain to me how it's possible that sephardic Jewish kits match with Ashkenazi Jews? Last month I learned my mother (she has Imazighen Jewish ancestry) matches with alot of Ashkenazi Jews at Gedmatch. This made me conclude there must have been an Ashkenazi Jewish ancestor in our family tree. Some persons told me thats not necessarily the case and that Sephardic Jews share DNA segments with the Ashkenazim. That I understand, ofcourse. They both descend of the same people from the Middle-East, but this is like 2000 years ago. How is it possible to genetically match this strong with people while the shared ancestors are from more then 1000 years back? Can this really make you match to more then 90 Ashkenazi Jews?

Another question; Is there someone with or who knows someone with a sephardic Jewish kit @ Gedmatch that doesn't have any Ashkenazi ancestors? I would like to see if other Sephardic Jews match to this many Ashkenazim also.

Atzmon found that it was difficult to separate modern Sephardim from modern Ashkenazi. Syrian Jews were also close.

CyrylBojarski
09-18-2020, 09:29 PM
I have a lof of Iberian and Latino matches, but I found only one even not fully Ashkenazi marching me on same segment. I do know why other people got a lot of Ashkenazi matches in Sephardic segment. Even through my segment what 23andme reads as 'Ashkenazi' i match only Sephardim