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R.Rocca
08-13-2013, 08:16 PM
While the "Genomes of the Netherlands" project (GoNL) is still processing their data, here is the preliminary P312 breakdown based on summary level data:

Of the 500 male samples:

P312 All: 18.6%
U152: 7.2%
Z195: 4.4%
L21: 3.2%
DF19: 2.0%
DF99: 0.8%
L238: 0.0%

DF27 was not in their test data for whatever reason, so only 88 of the 93 P312+ samples cound be classified, so that still leaves 5 samples unaccounted for. It is either DF27(xZ195) or P312**. Either way, that number is 1% and will not change the frequency much. It will be interesting to see how much of the P312(xU152,L21,xZ195) that Larmuseau (2013) found in Belgium will wind up being upstream DF27, DF19 and DF99.

For comparison, the GoNL P312-All frequency of 18.6% is in line with the 16.1% found in 87 samples by Myres (2010), albeit with different subclade frequencies:

P312 All: 16.1%
P312(xU152,L21): 6.9%
L21: 5.7%
U152: 3.4%

Needless to say, P312 takes a backseat to it brother clade U106 that makes up 33.0% (165 of 500) of the samples.

http://www.genoomvannederland.nl/?page_id=9

GoldenHind
08-14-2013, 12:51 AM
I am more than a little surprised to read that DF99 was found in the study, not because of the number (four out of a sample of 500, which more than doubles the number we knew about yesterday), but because this subclade was only publicly identitifed a couple of days ago. Presumably the people doing this study in the Netherlands have known about it for some time, though they don't seem to be aware of DF27, which I believe was discovered about two years ago.

Very odd indeed.

R.Rocca
08-14-2013, 01:27 AM
I am more than a little surprised to read that DF99 was found in the study, not because of the number (four out of a sample of 500, which more than doubles the number we knew about yesterday), but because this subclade was only publicly identitifed a couple of days ago. Presumably the people doing this study in the Netherlands have known about it for some time, though they don't seem to be aware of DF27, which I believe was discovered about two years ago.

Very odd indeed.

They don't call it DF99, they just posted the data of tens of thousands of derived values. In it, they show that four samples are derived 'A' at position 8829491 which is the same position and derived value for DF99. As for DF27, it could be that it falls outside the filter they used. Too early to tell until they make the full genomes available to the public.

razyn
08-14-2013, 02:38 AM
they show that four samples are derived 'A' at position 8829491 which is the same position and derived value for DF99.
This is a cool trick, it's been possible to do it with 23andme results for a long time but the coverage there is pretty light. (It's where my L484 was discovered, though, by Adriano Squecco's data mining operation.) Hans van Vliet has been doing it on request for a few weeks, since he got his full genome via DNA-DTC; and it should be possible with the several Y chromosome full sequences that have recently been ordered. Knowing where to look, and what to look for there, is the hard part -- once you know that, it's so simple a septuagenarian can do it.

Ryan
05-21-2014, 11:51 AM
A remark from The Netherlands.

The area the website is about, is the northern part of The Netherlands.

P312 is higher in the South.

This information is gathered by The Brabant project.

http://www.brabant-dna.org/

rms2
05-21-2014, 03:58 PM
A remark from The Netherlands.

The area the website is about, is the northern part of The Netherlands.

P312 is higher in the South.

This information is gathered by The Brabant project.

http://www.brabant-dna.org/

Does it say somewhere in the Genomes of the Netherlands Project web site where the samples were collected? I am interested in finding out.

Ryan
05-21-2014, 07:26 PM
Does it say somewhere in the Genomes of the Netherlands Project web site where the samples were collected? I am interested in finding out.

I don't know, but the cities mentioned are from the north.
Amsterdam, Leiden, Groningen and Rotterdam.

During the 80 year war with Spain, (1568-1648) a lot of people from the south went to the north, to evade the Spanish.

That is the reason why P312 also exists in the North of the Netherlands.

But most of the YDNA P312 in the south is considered as coming from the origin of the Duchy of Brabant in nowadays Belgium, but also from Northern France.

It was a surprise to me that I have the same YDNA as 99% of the population of Ireland.

I was raised by the story that the Dutch were a mixture of 3 tribes, Franks, Saxons, and Frisians (Vikings).
But in the South, we are Celts. :)
So, We are the indigenous people in the Netherlands. at least in the south!!! :)
The other 3 tribes came much later.. :)

Gray Fox
05-21-2014, 08:20 PM
@Ryan

I was thinking you were SRY2627/M167? Though I may be mistaking you for another person of similar background.

razyn
09-06-2019, 06:26 PM
Just for the "all things come to him who waits" file: https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?709-New-DNA-Papers&p=598115&viewfull=1#post598115

I happened to notice that Larmuseau (of the Belgium study cited by Rocca, six years ago in the original post here) is a co-author of the new Netherlands YDNA paper.

Dewsloth
09-06-2019, 06:33 PM
There is more discussion (and Y-SNP breakdowns) in this thread:
https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12511-Defining-Y-SNP-variation-among-the-Flemish-population-(Western-Europe)-by-full-genome

MitchellSince1893
09-06-2019, 07:34 PM
P312 maps from the study. I edited the labels to include the more commonly used names e.g. P312 vs S116, L21 vs M529.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/dd/2f/a0/dd2fa08fd05d6bafcdc3cec2109362ad.png

Ric
10-20-2019, 03:54 PM
Is it reasonable to expect that maritime and navigation TECHNOLOGIES were shared between Netherlanders R1b-P312 men living in the marshes, and the DF27 Basques, since the Basques have a very strong connection with the sea ? Are there any traces of that (ancient boats and construction methods, Keel, sail set arrangement, wind records, knowledge of the connection between Lunar phases and tides, navigation on star, Oceanic Mythology... ?

Following this question in the ancient vocabulary aspect, it is also reasonable to assume that the Basques men originally spoke a Nordwestblock dialect that could have survived in maritime/navigational basque technology ? Any comment on that ?

rms2
10-20-2019, 08:55 PM
Here's my comment: the Basques aren't that significant in the P312 story. They aren't behind the spread of P312 or even of DF27 beyond their own small region. Basque-mania is a relic of the period of about 2005-2010. It still lurks here and there on the internet, but it's obsolete misinformation that has been superseded by the facts uncovered by ancient dna results.

Ric
10-21-2019, 12:30 PM
Here's my comment: the Basques aren't that significant in the P312 story. They aren't behind the spread of P312 or even of DF27 beyond their own small region. Basque-mania is a relic of the period of about 2005-2010. It still lurks here and there on the internet, but it's obsolete misinformation that has been superseded by the facts uncovered by ancient dna results.

Yeah but what if it's the other way around: Basques originated from an early pool of men who left the Nordwestblock 2500BC. Perhaps they never stayed in this area, they just transited. Regardless, this is not important for my question.
What is important is that I assume that the early DF27 men already had a set of maritime skills that they put to use in contact with the sea in the Netherlands, and also in Basque country. And therefore Basques may have had kept remnants of that shared technology in their vocabulary.
I could investigate myself in Wikipedia and google search for the navigational techniques of the early Basques and compare with early Bell Beaker of the Netherlands, but the point of a forum is to ask questions in hope of receiving answers from knowledgeable experts.

rms2
10-21-2019, 02:24 PM
Well, it’s not “the other way around”, because the other way around from what I wrote would mean that ancient dna supported the silliness of about ten years ago, that the Basques were central in the P312 story. You should do a little more reading about the whole Northwestblock idea, because it has little or nothing to do with the Basques.

R1b-P312 probably arrived in Europe west of the steppe with Corded Ware and was Indo-European speaking. The Basques were a Neolithic Iberian people whose y-dna profile was mostly if not entirely I2a. They worshipped an earth mother goddess called Mari and had a matrilocal marriage tradition. That means the groom went to live with the bride’s family. In this way, outsider y-dna, when introduced among the Basques, was not also accompanied by a corresponding change in language and culture. Drift led to the predominance of DF27 while Basque traditions and language were preserved.

Ric
10-21-2019, 05:25 PM
Well, it’s not “the other way around”, because the other way around from what I wrote would mean that ancient dna supported the silliness of about ten years ago, that the Basques were central in the P312 story. You should do a little more reading about the whole Northwestblock idea, because it has little or nothing to do with the Basques.

R1b-P312 probably arrived in Europe west of the steppe with Corded Ware and was Indo-European speaking. The Basques were a Neolithic Iberian people whose y-dna profile was mostly if not entirely I2a. They worshipped an earth mother goddess called Mari and had a matrilocal marriage tradition. That means the groom went to live with the bride’s family. In this way, outsider y-dna, when introduced among the Basques, was not also accompanied by a corresponding change in language and culture. Drift led to the predominance of DF27 while Basque traditions and language were preserved.

Sorry but 'the other way around' in my sentence, in the context of your previous comment, means precisely that the Basque may originate from the area bordering the sea around the Netherland. In fact my first post/question does not imply any direction of migration or place of origin at all, just that there may have been a common navigational technology shared by the Basques and the Bell Beakers in the Nordwestblock.
Assuming the Iberian Neolithics didn't have this technology, they should not have the words for it and therefore the navigational skills of the Basques should have been bring by IE males, including DF27 men, and in this case the IE vocabulary necessary to navigate the sea may have been preserved with a recognizable IE roots in Euskara language.

Even if the Neolithics had already a pretty advanced technology in navigation, incoming IE may have bring some new tech. The sudden archeological appearance of new way to make boats or use sail 2600 BC would fit nicely with the arrival of IE technology.
I am not an expert in prehistoric navigation, obviously, that's why I ask the question, but roughly one could consider the entrance of boat making, anywhere, anytime, with the canoe/pirogue, of the wood dugout canoe style most likely. Polynesians used rafts, perhaps Iberian Neolithic people had rafts as well? But my guess is the ocean facing the basque country is too rough for canoeing so Neolithic Iberian must have had something better than a raft or canoe, perhaps basic sailboat. Yet, incoming IE could have bring something new, like the keel, which is not an obvious addon to a sailboat. But it could be something else, I don't know.

So that was my question, only pertaining to sea faring and navigation technologies (an vocabulary) shared between the Basques and the Nordwest Bell Beakers, 2600BC.

PS: when I say Basque, I mean non-Neolithic Basques, or df27 basques.

rms2
10-21-2019, 05:28 PM
The biggest problem with what you suggest is that there is absolutely no reason to believe it's true.