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sonofhatton
10-01-2017, 04:39 AM
Which one is truely Germanic, Europe West or Great Britain?

Im half German descended from Western Germany[Baden, Wurtemberg, and Westphalia]
Yet somewhat suprisingly I have 0%-0% range Europe West.
Hidden in my lineage are english and french hughnot unrecognized due to marrying catholics.
What do full German people get as their main genetic type on ancestrydna?
Quite interested aswell in regional variation of primary genetic type in different states of Germany.

Thank you for any responses :)

CelticGerman
10-01-2017, 05:43 AM
I am not sure what a full German is, for we are all the result of admixture events in the past. Nevertheless, I might be the kind of German you are looking for. According to paper trail I am 96% German (70% North German). Besides this there are a few Danish, Austrian, Swiss and Czech ancestors.

My ancestry result is here (range 0-72% for Europe West, 0-49% for Great Britain .... which means other ancestry percentages are possible).
19083

For comparison:

FTDNA 100% West and Central Europe. 19084

Living DNA. 19085

23andMe. 19086

By the way, it seems difficult to make a difference between Europe West and Great Britain. Great Britain is part of Western Europe. You will find strong Germanic influence in Britain due to migration events in the past. However, the Celtic is still there.

Germany is not "purely" Germanic, because there are important Celtic contributions as well, more in the south than in the north or the east. And there are Slavic contributions above all in the east.

Did you upload your data to GEDmatch? There are many possibilities to analyse your DNA. Tools made available by different people are much better than results from commercial companies.

Finn
10-01-2017, 07:18 AM
Which one is truely Germanic, Europe West or Great Britain?

Im half German descended from Western Germany[Baden, Wurtemberg, and Westphalia]
Yet I have 0-0% Europe West.
Hidden in my irish lineage are unrecognized english/saxons and french hughnot due to marrying catholics.
What do full German people get as their main genetic type on ancestrydna?
Quite interested aswell in regional variation of primary genetic type in different states of Germany.

Thank you for any responses :)

As from North Dutch stock I got some mixed results indeed.

On FTDNA:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/zkgvm6fbzg4l9.png
0% West and Central Europe

or Gencove:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/vvcpclp5pnud8.png

On DNA Land:
https://www.mupload.nl/img/uiziosra3gmpk.png

The last one is most accurat.

When there is no Northwest European category my admixture get's diffused...

But even then!! ;)

This is the result from my heritage with a North-West European category:

https://www.mupload.nl/img/ywukgbpctcpf4.png

:confused::

So on the whole the admixtures aren't very sharp.....

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2017, 09:12 AM
I am not sure what a full German is, for we are all the result of admixture events in the past. Nevertheless, I might be the kind of German you are looking for. According to paper trail I am 96% German (70% North German). Besides this there are a few Danish, Austrian, Swiss and Czech ancestors.

My ancestry result is here (range 0-72% for Europe West, 0-49% for Great Britain .... which means other ancestry percentages are possible).
19083

For comparison:

FTDNA 100% West and Central Europe. 19084

Living DNA. 19085

23andMe. 19086

By the way, it seems difficult to make a difference between Europe West and Great Britain. Great Britain is part of Western Europe. You will find strong Germanic influence in Britain due to migration events in the past. However, the Celtic is still there.

Germany is not "purely" Germanic, because there are important Celtic contributions as well, more in the south than in the north or the east. And there are Slavic contributions above all in the east.

Did you upload your data to GEDmatch? There are many possibilities to analyse your DNA. Tools made available by different people are much better than results from commercial companies.

Interesting that Living DNA didn't place you into a GB category.I wonder if AncestryDNA classes GB as more of a Germanic category rather than an actual GB category?

I'd do a LivingDNA test if it weren't for its insufficient Irish data.

Finn
10-01-2017, 09:38 AM
Interesting that Living DNA didn't place you into a GB category.I wonder if AncestryDNA classes GB as more of a Germanic category rather than an actual GB category?

I'd do a LivingDNA test if it weren't for its insufficient Irish data.

I presume a little commercial interest to, most costumers are either American or British. When the Anglo Saxon component leads them to NW European continent they are probably confused, so from commercial interest it's safer to do this reverse!?

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2017, 09:41 AM
I don't know, but I find it bizarre that a German would have more GB than someone from GB. I think all the mixing was the other way around i.e from Germany to GB, not GB to Germany.

I doubt any of his ancestry is from Britain.

Finn
10-01-2017, 09:43 AM
I don't know, but I find it bizarre that a German would have more GB than someone from GB. I think all the mixing was the other way around i.e from Germany to GB, not GB to Germany.

Correct but then a quite deal of the British would be labeled as German.... ;)

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2017, 09:48 AM
You mean English. ;)

CelticGerman
10-01-2017, 11:19 AM
Interesting that Living DNA didn't place you into a GB category.I wonder if AncestryDNA classes GB as more of a Germanic category rather than an actual GB category?

I'd do a LivingDNA test if it weren't for its insufficient Irish data.

The initial result from LivingDNA was more British/English (see attached map), but the up-date changed it (closer to reality, I guess. 19088

LivingDNA's "Germanic" area seems a little bit simplistic, because Celtic and Slavic admixture is not visible at all.

CelticGerman
10-01-2017, 11:32 AM
I don't know, but I find it bizarre that a German would have more GB than someone from GB. I think all the mixing was the other way around i.e from Germany to GB, not GB to Germany.

I doubt any of his ancestry is from Britain.

Generally speaking, you are probably right. Nevertheless, you can notice some movements from Britain to Germany in history as well (Scottish settlers in Eastern Germany, missionaries, mercenaries during Thirty Years' War). And I am quite sure Anglosaxons brought people from Britain to their initial homelands (as slaves maybe, no proof however).

Finn
10-01-2017, 11:56 AM
Generally speaking, you are probably right. Nevertheless, you can notice some movements from Britain to Germany in history as well (Scottish settlers in Eastern Germany, missionaries, mercenaries during Thirty Years' War). And I am quite sure Anglosaxons brought people from Britain to their initial homelands (as slaves maybe, no proof however).

With permission. But I guess that the initiatal spread from the NW parts of the continent (Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Frisii etc etc) had more impact than the other way around. Not to mention the Bell Beaker movement before. And yes there were slavetraders (the Frisians were specialized in it it seemed, they traded everything-some things never change-;) but my impression is that this was one the whole marginal. but I could be wrong.....

CelticGerman
10-01-2017, 12:04 PM
With permission. But I guess that the initiatal spread from the NW parts of the continent (Saxons, Angles, Jutes, Frisii etc etc) had more impact than the other way around. Not to mention the Bell Beaker movement before. And yes there were slavetraders (the Frisians were specialized in it it seemed, they traded everything-some things never change-;) but my impression is that this was one the whole marginal. but I could be wrong.....

No doubt.

I still have the attached analysis from David W. in my memory ... 19089

By the way, there was more recent German immigration in Britain: http://www.mawer.clara.net/ppanayi.html

JerryS.
10-01-2017, 01:49 PM
I am 1/4 German, traced to Bremen Germany (and one from Palatinate? Germany) and those people only mixing once with English/Scottish once they got to America. Ancestry (bless their hearts) did at least get that right for me with a 27% West European category. FTDNA completely missed it and gave me a 0% western European. just about all of the GEDmatch calculators show some German or at least Dutch/Frisian when they do rough groupings for me.

Finn
10-01-2017, 02:56 PM
or at least Dutch/Frisian when they do rough groupings for me.

makes sense with Bremen..

JerryS.
10-01-2017, 03:09 PM
I have "full German" ancestors. I do not know what their DNA would have shown, but here is mine from various calculators. Some are obviously slanted towards the North and West European regions but they still show either German or bordering areas, with the exception of the Scottish grouping because I'm half Colonial American (English with a little Scottish). If you used various calculators and did not get German as a headliner at least on some listings, then I'd say your German has been quite watered down with other regions.


Dodecad

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 West_European 50.71
2 Mediterranean 26.83
3 East_European 10.45
4 West_Asian 9.5
5 South_Asian 1
6 Northwest_African 0.96
7 East_African 0.55
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.1% Tuscan (HGDP) @ 1.3
2 84.1% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 15.9% O_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
3 86.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 13.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.46
4 86.9% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13.1% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.51
5 88.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.7% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.52
6 88.7% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 11.3% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.55
7 80.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 19.1% N_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.58
8 87.7% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.3% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.59
9 87.8% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.2% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.6
10 88.5% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.5% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.61
11 87.4% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 12.6% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
12 88.1% Orcadian (HGDP) + 11.9% Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.66
13 88% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 12% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.71
14 87.8% Orcadian (HGDP) + 12.2% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.76
15 85.3% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 14.7% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.78
16 92.6% CEU (HapMap) + 7.4% S_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
17 87% Orkney (1000 Genomes) + 13% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) @ 1.79
18 86.2% Orcadian (HGDP) + 13.8% C_Italian (Dodecad) @ 1.81
19 92.1% CEU (HapMap) + 7.9% Greek (Dodecad) @ 1.82
20 81.5% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 18.5% TSI (HapMap) @ 1.84

MDLP

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 35.2
2 European_Early_Farmers 27.46
3 Caucasian 25.13
4 South_Central_Asian 5.31
5 Ancestral_Altaic 4.02
6 Australoid 1.39
7 North_African 0.97
8 Archaic_Human 0.28
9 Khoisan 0.23
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.4% Frisian ( ) + 17.6% Greek_Thessaloniki ( ) @ 1.89
2 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Albanian_Tirana ( ) @ 1.89
3 79.7% Frisian ( ) + 20.3% Kosovar ( ) @ 1.93
4 82% Frisian ( ) + 18% Greek_Thessaly ( ) @ 1.94
5 85.9% Frisian ( ) + 14.1% Italian_South ( ) @ 1.99
6 85.5% Frisian ( ) + 14.5% Greek_Athens ( ) @ 1.99
7 83.8% Frisian ( ) + 16.2% Central_Greek ( ) @ 2
8 84.9% Frisian ( ) + 15.1% Sicilian_Center ( ) @ 2.04
9 79.2% Frisian ( ) + 20.8% Bulgarian ( ) @ 2.05
10 88.5% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.5% Georgian_Tbilisi ( ) @ 2.05
11 83.4% Frisian ( ) + 16.6% Ashkenazi ( ) @ 2.08
12 79.3% Frisian ( ) + 20.7% Greek_Northwest ( ) @ 2.08
13 88.8% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 11.2% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.08
14 85.4% Frisian ( ) + 14.6% Greek ( ) @ 2.09
15 93.2% Belgian ( ) + 6.8% Georgian_Laz ( ) @ 2.1
16 84.5% Frisian ( ) + 15.5% Romanian_Jew ( ) @ 2.1
17 84.3% Frisian ( ) + 15.7% Gagauz ( ) @ 2.11
18 82.1% Frisian ( ) + 17.9% Greek_Peloponnesos ( ) @ 2.14
19 93% Belgian ( ) + 7% Georgian_Imereti ( ) @ 2.15
20 84.3% English_Kent_GBR ( ) + 15.7% Circassian ( ) @ 2.16

EUtest

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 28.71
2 ATLANTIC 22.28
3 SOUTH_BALTIC 12.74
4 WEST_MED 11.44
5 EAST_EURO 11.15
6 EAST_MED 6.71
7 WEST_ASIAN 6.1
8 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.58
9 EAST_AFRICAN 0.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:


# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.3% NL + 5.7% Armenian @ 2.62
2 94.7% NL + 5.3% GE @ 2.63
3 93.5% NL + 6.5% TR @ 2.65
4 94.5% NL + 5.5% Assyrian @ 2.66
5 74.7% NO + 25.3% Tuscan @ 2.68
6 94.3% NL + 5.7% Kurdish @ 2.7
7 94.2% NL + 5.8% IR @ 2.73
8 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.78
9 96.9% West_&_Central_German + 3.1% GE @ 2.86
10 94.2% NL + 5.8% Lezgin @ 2.88
11 95.3% NL + 4.7% Druze @ 2.89
12 96.9% West_&_Central_German + 3.1% Armenian @ 2.92
13 96.5% West_&_Central_German + 3.5% TR @ 2.95
14 92.9% NL + 7.1% GR @ 2.96
15 73.9% South_&_Central_Swedish + 26.1% Tuscan @ 2.96
16 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 2.96
17 96.7% West_&_Central_German + 3.3% Lezgin @ 2.97
18 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 2.97
19 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% Assyrian @ 2.98
20 78.9% English + 21.1% Serbian @ 2.99

Jtest

Admix Results (sorted):
# Population Percent
1 NORTH-CENTRAL_EURO 28.34
2 ATLANTIC 21.65
3 SOUTH_BALTIC 12.66
4 EAST_EURO 10.88
5 WEST_MED 10.78
6 WEST_ASIAN 5.31
7 EAST_MED 5.19
8 ASHKENAZI 4.44
9 SOUTH_ASIAN 0.54
10 EAST_AFRICAN 0.21

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.2% NO + 24.8% Tuscan @ 2.73
2 94.5% NL + 5.5% Armenian @ 2.81
3 93.7% NL + 6.3% TR @ 2.84
4 94.9% NL + 5.1% GE @ 2.84
5 94.6% NL + 5.4% Assyrian @ 2.85
6 94.4% NL + 5.6% Kurdish @ 2.88
7 94.9% NL + 5.1% Mandean @ 2.92
8 94.4% NL + 5.6% IR @ 2.92
9 93.1% NL + 6.9% AJ @ 2.93
10 78.7% English + 21.3% Serbian @ 3
11 95.5% West_&_Central_German + 4.5% AJ @ 3.01
12 91.8% English + 8.2% Kurdish @ 3.07
13 74.3% South_&_Central_Swedish + 25.7% Tuscan @ 3.07
14 90.9% English + 9.1% TR @ 3.08
15 79.7% DK + 20.3% Tuscan @ 3.08
16 93% NL + 7% GR @ 3.09
17 94.5% NL + 5.5% Lezgin @ 3.09
18 92.6% NL + 7.4% South_Italian_&_Sicilian @ 3.09
19 95.5% NL + 4.5% Druze @ 3.1
20 97.2% West_&_Central_German + 2.8% GE @ 3.12

Pylsteen
10-01-2017, 03:15 PM
@ Celtic German, interesting amount of Germanic with LivingDNA. I wonder what they use for "Germanic"; my Dutch had been done by them as 68% British, 20% Scandinavian, and only 1,5% Germanic.

Nive1526
10-01-2017, 03:43 PM
My LivingDNA results in standard mode:

Europe: 98.8%
39.4% Germanic
34.9% Great Britain and Ireland
23% Tuscany
1.5% Europe unassigned

Near East
1.2% Arabia

All my known ancestors are from either Central or Southern Germany.
LivingDNA states that southern and Eastern German ancestry is less well represented in their panel.

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2017, 04:42 PM
Pretty much all of my GEDMATCH results say Irish or Scottish.

mwauthy
10-01-2017, 05:00 PM
I think Europe West has a strong Frankish element to it. My father is Wallonian Belgium and he received 66% Europe West and only 4% Great Britain.

JerryS.
10-01-2017, 06:01 PM
My LivingDNA results in standard mode:

Europe: 98.8%
39.4% Germanic
34.9% Great Britain and Ireland
23% Tuscany
1.5% Europe unassigned

Near East
1.2% Arabia

All my known ancestors are from either Central or Southern Germany.
LivingDNA states that southern and Eastern German ancestry is less well represented in their panel.

I haven't done a living DNA thing, but yours has obvious signs of you being 1/4 Italian. the percent (23 Tuscany + 1.5 European unassigned + 1.2 Arabia) easily makes this conclusion reasonable. you also appear to have quite a bit German, and coupled with the fact that England has a bit of German DNA, I'd dare say your profile is similar to mine.

Nive1526
10-01-2017, 06:33 PM
I haven't done a living DNA thing, but yours has obvious signs of you being 1/4 Italian. the percent (23 Tuscany + 1.5 European unassigned + 1.2 Arabia) easily makes this conclusion reasonable. you also appear to have quite a bit German, and coupled with the fact that England has a bit of German DNA, I'd dare say your profile is similar to mine.

I knew my grandparents pretty well and none of them is Italian or British.:)
Some of the Tuscan could be derived from the Roman era of southern Germany, it's not very uncommon for Northwestern Europeans to score Tuscan in LivingDNA, but 23% is still greatly above the average.
I suspect having a more "exotic" ancestor on my maternal side, that lived before the 20th century.

Finn
10-01-2017, 07:22 PM
And the Eurogenes K13 and K15?

Nive1526
10-01-2017, 07:30 PM
K13 Oracle:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 71% Southwest_English + 29% Greek_Thessaly @ 2.3
2 80.6% West_German + 19.4% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.34
3 82.9% West_German + 17.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.36
4 81.2% West_German + 18.8% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.37
5 81.8% West_German + 18.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.41
6 77.7% West_German + 22.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.43
7 92.7% West_German + 7.3% Sardinian @ 2.44
8 79.4% West_German + 20.6% Portuguese @ 2.45
9 79.5% West_German + 20.5% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.46
10 58.5% North_Dutch + 41.5% North_Italian @ 2.47
11 79.9% West_German + 20.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.5
12 83.6% West_German + 16.4% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.5
13 74.8% Southwest_English + 25.2% Central_Greek @ 2.51
14 81.7% West_German + 18.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.53
15 53.7% West_German + 46.3% French @ 2.54
16 81.5% West_German + 18.5% Southwest_French @ 2.55
17 81.9% West_German + 18.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.6
18 75.4% Southwest_English + 24.6% East_Sicilian @ 2.72
19 82.7% South_Dutch + 17.3% North_Italian @ 2.78
20 53.8% Norwegian + 46.2% North_Italian @ 2.8


K15 Oracle:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.7% West_German + 5.3% Sardinian @ 4.42
2 86.3% West_German + 13.7% Spanish_Galicia @ 4.53
3 89.3% West_German + 10.7% Portuguese @ 4.66
4 90.1% West_German + 9.9% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 4.67
5 92.1% West_German + 7.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 4.73
6 92.4% West_German + 7.6% North_Italian @ 4.75
7 90.7% West_German + 9.3% Spanish_Cataluna @ 4.75
8 91.9% West_German + 8.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 4.75
9 81.9% West_German + 18.1% French @ 4.78
10 93.9% West_German + 6.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 4.8
11 92.9% West_German + 7.1% Spanish_Murcia @ 4.8
12 94.1% West_German + 5.9% Spanish_Aragon @ 4.81
13 99% West_German + 1% Papuan @ 4.81
14 93.8% West_German + 6.2% Southwest_French @ 4.81
15 97.1% West_German + 2.9% Moroccan @ 4.82
16 94.1% West_German + 5.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 4.83
17 94.7% West_German + 5.3% Tuscan @ 4.83
18 97.2% West_German + 2.8% Mozabite_Berber @ 4.84
19 94.2% West_German + 5.8% Spanish_Valencia @ 4.84
20 98.9% West_German + 1.1% NAN_Melanesian @ 4.85



My genome has been an enigma for me, so far.

A Norfolk L-M20
10-01-2017, 07:47 PM
I'm not German, I'm English of mainly East Anglian ancestry. However, as you are comparing to English - and it has been suggested by POBI and Living DNA that East Anglian is closest to German, here are some of my results briefly.

My unphased 23andme results included:

32% British & Irish
27% French & German
7% Scandinavian
29% Broadly NW European
2% Broadly Southern European (including 0.5% Iberian)

My FT-DNA:

51% British Isles
46% West and Central Europe

My Ancestry.com:

68% Great Britain
16% Europe West
6% Scandinavia

Very high confidence Genetic Community East Anglia & Essex

LivingDNA:

70% Great Britain
9% Tuscany
6% Scandinavia
4% Germanic
2.2% Aegean
1.2% France

My MDLP K16 nearest GDs:

1 German (Germany) 2.37
2 French (NorthwestFrance) 4.05
3 French (EastFrance) 4.17
4 French (France) 4.55
5 French (WestFrance) 4.69

Eurogenes K13 nearest GDs:

1 South_Dutch 3.89
2 Southeast_English 4.35
3 West_German 5.22
4 Southwest_English 6.24
5 Orcadian 6.97

Eurogenes K15 nearest GDs:

1 Southwest_English 2.7
2 South_Dutch 3.98
3 Southeast_English 4.33
4 Irish 6.23
5 West_German 6.25

Dewsloth
10-01-2017, 08:55 PM
@ Celtic German, interesting amount of Germanic with LivingDNA. I wonder what they use for "Germanic"; my Dutch had been done by them as 68% British, 20% Scandinavian, and only 1,5% Germanic.

Right. According to LivingDNA, my dad (who was born in Germany just before WWII) has zero "Germanic.":behindsofa:

Great Britain and Ireland 71.1%
Europe (South) 14.3% (11+% North Italy)
Europe (North and West) 8.2% (Scandinavian in complete mode)
Europe (East) 6.4%

Nqp15hhu
10-01-2017, 09:01 PM
One can see that I don't have much of an exotic ancestry!


K13
# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 96% Irish + 4% Balochi @ 2.34
2 96.1% Irish + 3.9% Brahui @ 2.35
3 95.7% Irish + 4.3% Kalash @ 2.39
4 96.2% Irish + 3.8% Sindhi @ 2.42
5 95.9% Irish + 4.1% Burusho @ 2.47
6 95% West_Scottish + 5% Balochi @ 2.47
7 95.8% Irish + 4.2% Punjabi_Jat @ 2.48
8 96.2% Irish + 3.8% Makrani @ 2.48
9 95.2% West_Scottish + 4.8% Brahui @ 2.49
10 94.6% West_Scottish + 5.4% Kalash @ 2.5
11 96% Irish + 4% Pathan @ 2.52
12 95.5% Irish + 4.5% Afghan_Pashtun @ 2.53
13 96.6% Irish + 3.4% Gujarati @ 2.6
14 95.3% Irish + 4.7% Tadjik @ 2.65
15 96.7% Irish + 3.3% Kshatriya @ 2.66
16 96.4% Irish + 3.6% Brahmin_UP @ 2.67
17 95.2% West_Scottish + 4.8% Makrani @ 2.68
18 94.9% West_Scottish + 5.1% Burusho @ 2.69
19 95.9% Irish + 4.1% Ossetian @ 2.7
20 95.8% Irish + 4.2% Afghan_Tadjik @ 2.7


Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 95.7% Orcadian + 4.3% Kalash @ 3.49
2 95% Orcadian + 5% Tabassaran @ 3.53
3 96.1% Orcadian + 3.9% Burusho @ 3.58
4 95.5% Orcadian + 4.5% Afghan_Pashtun @ 3.58
5 96.2% Orcadian + 3.8% Pathan @ 3.63
6 96.2% Orcadian + 3.8% Punjabi_Jat @ 3.64
7 95.6% Orcadian + 4.4% Lezgin @ 3.65
8 96.2% Orcadian + 3.8% Balochi @ 3.68
9 96.4% Orcadian + 3.6% MA-1 @ 3.69
10 96.4% Orcadian + 3.6% Brahui @ 3.7
11 95.5% Orcadian + 4.5% Tadjik @ 3.71
12 96.7% Orcadian + 3.3% Sindhi @ 3.73
13 95.9% Orcadian + 4.1% Afghan_Tadjik @ 3.73
14 96.1% Orcadian + 3.9% Chechen @ 3.76
15 95.4% Orcadian + 4.6% Chuvash @ 3.76
16 96.6% Orcadian + 3.4% Makrani @ 3.78
17 96% Orcadian + 4% Afghan_Uzbeki @ 3.78
18 97.2% Orcadian + 2.8% Gujarati @ 3.81
19 96.2% Orcadian + 3.8% Mari @ 3.82
20 97.2% Orcadian + 2.8% Brahmin_UP @ 3.84

CelticGerman
10-01-2017, 09:47 PM
Genetic communities works quite good in my case.

19098

sktibo
10-02-2017, 12:54 AM
At this point I'm quite sure there isn't much difference genetically between Ancestry's Europe West and Great Britain. Both these categories are incredibly mixed for NW Europeans, and most likely contain genetic signatures from Celtic, Germanic, and probably Southern European groups too. I had both of my parents tested -
My mother got 31% Great Britain and 22% Europe West.
My father got 28% Europe West and 26% Great Britain.
I got 73% Great Britain and 2% Europe West.
As you can clearly tell, these numbers don't even come close to adding up - and thus the most likely explanation is that I was assigned the set of results I received because they're so similar; there's pretty much no difference between EW and GB in Ancestry's test.
So to answer the original question posed here, which one is more Germanic? I don't think that one is more Germanic than the other. They appear to be somewhat interchangeable.


Which one is truely Germanic, Europe West or Great Britain?

Im half German descended from Western Germany[Baden, Wurtemberg, and Westphalia]
Yet somewhat suprisingly I have 0%-0% range Europe West.
Hidden in my lineage are english and french hughnot unrecognized due to marrying catholics.
What do full German people get as their main genetic type on ancestrydna?
Quite interested aswell in regional variation of primary genetic type in different states of Germany.

Thank you for any responses :)

One thing that does matter in this case is that your ethnicity is listed as "Irish and German" and in another thread, I explored what happened to GB percentages when the same person tested twice, and the GB category usually splits into Ireland and Scandinavian percentages. I'm guessing that you received a very large Great Britain percentage, over 60%. Can you verify?

It appears that mixed people usually get stupid high Great Britain percentages on Ancestry, and because you aren't fully German, (half is it?) that throws off the question when examining your results in this case. Similar questions have been explored in detail on this forum in the Ancestry DNA category. It's very confusing because British people don't often get high British percentages, the consistent thing is that those who get high British percentages are from mixed backgrounds.

mwauthy
10-02-2017, 01:24 AM
Itís very confusing because British people don't often get high British percentages, the consistent thing is that those who get high British percentages are from mixed backgrounds.

I think there will always be outliers in any dataset and that people who receive odd scores are more likely to flock to these genetics forums to find answers. However, if we look at the data that Ancestry provides the typical native of Great Britain receives 60% on average.

sktibo
10-02-2017, 01:41 AM
I think there will always be outliers in any dataset and that people who receive odd scores are more likely to flock to these genetics forums to find answers. However, if we look at the data that Ancestry provides the typical native of Great Britain receives 60% on average.

The data ancestry provides appears to be unreliable

mwauthy
10-02-2017, 01:54 AM
The data ancestry provides appears to be unreliable

Those typical native percentages were compiled based on the initial reference groups of a few hundred. It would be interesting to see those typical native percentages updated after a few million customers.

sktibo
10-02-2017, 03:55 AM
Those typical native percentages were compiled based on the initial reference groups of a few hundred. It would be interesting to see those typical native percentages updated after a few million customers.

I would also like to see them updated, even another hundred would be interesting

sonofhatton
10-02-2017, 12:22 PM
At this point I'm quite sure there isn't much difference genetically between Ancestry's Europe West and Great Britain. Both these categories are incredibly mixed for NW Europeans, and most likely contain genetic signatures from Celtic, Germanic, and probably Southern European groups too. I had both of my parents tested -
My mother got 31% Great Britain and 22% Europe West.
My father got 28% Europe West and 26% Great Britain.
I got 73% Great Britain and 2% Europe West.
As you can clearly tell, these numbers don't even come close to adding up - and thus the most likely explanation is that I was assigned the set of results I received because they're so similar; there's pretty much no difference between EW and GB in Ancestry's test.
So to answer the original question posed here, which one is more Germanic? I don't think that one is more Germanic than the other. They appear to be somewhat interchangeable.



One thing that does matter in this case is that your ethnicity is listed as "Irish and German" and in another thread, I explored what happened to GB percentages when the same person tested twice, and the GB category usually splits into Ireland and Scandinavian percentages. I'm guessing that you received a very large Great Britain percentage, over 60%. Can you verify?

It appears that mixed people usually get stupid high Great Britain percentages on Ancestry, and because you aren't fully German, (half is it?) that throws off the question when examining your results in this case. Similar questions have been explored in detail on this forum in the Ancestry DNA category. It's very confusing because British people don't often get high British percentages, the consistent thing is that those who get high British percentages are from mixed backgrounds.

mother is 1/4th german from Westphalia and Wurtemburg rest catholic Irish. Father is half german mother from Baden then irish paternally Methodist who married a Irish catholic with unrecognized Hughnot and English then with some blood from the westerwald.

Came out.:
55% irish
37% british
2% finnish/Russian
2% scandanavian
<1% European east
<1% Italy/Greece
<1% jewish
<1% Iberian Peninsula
1% Caucasus

Not surprising really now that I think
about it.

Finn
10-02-2017, 12:22 PM
IMO there are three categories:

1. Northwest Europeans, mostly people with ancestors (very) close to the North Sea, Danes, Nores, North Dutch etc.

2. West Europeans, mostly people with ancestors from beneath the Rhine, the old Belgae and Frankish territory, so South Dutch, Belgium, Northern France, Southwest Germany (Rhineland etc).

3. The Isles; England, Ireland, Scotland etc with combinations of influences from 1 and/or 2.

Just a try....plausible?

mwauthy
10-02-2017, 12:38 PM
IMO there are three categories:

1. Northwest Europeans, mostly people with ancestors (very) close to the North Sea, Danes, Nores, North Dutch etc.

2. West Europeans, mostly people with ancestors from beneath the Rhine, the old Belgae and Frankish territory, so South Dutch, Belgium, Northern France, Southwest Germany (Rhineland etc).

3. The Isles; England, Ireland, Scotland etc with combinations of influences from 1 and/or 2.

Just a try....plausible?

I agree with this post and to tie it back to the OP I think Great Britain has a higher North Germanic element to it than Europe West. That is why people native to Great Britain get higher Scandinavian scores than people from Belgium. Europe West seems to peak in Belgium. This is also why the Dutch and North Germans often get high Great Britain scores. If you look at the historical migrations of these areas it makes perfect sense as well.

Nqp15hhu
10-02-2017, 01:06 PM
IMO there are three categories:

1. Northwest Europeans, mostly people with ancestors (very) close to the North Sea, Danes, Nores, North Dutch etc.

2. West Europeans, mostly people with ancestors from beneath the Rhine, the old Belgae and Frankish territory, so South Dutch, Belgium, Northern France, Southwest Germany (Rhineland etc).

3. The Isles; England, Ireland, Scotland etc with combinations of influences from 1 and/or 2.

Just a try....plausible?

I would classify the British Isles as North Western Europe and Germany as Central Europe.

mwauthy
10-02-2017, 03:21 PM
I would classify the British Isles as North Western Europe and Germany as Central Europe.

I donít like associating nationalistic borders with ethnicity regions. I think northern Germany is different from southern Germany and western Germany is different than eastern Germany. So I wouldnít categorize all of Germany as Central Europe. The same applies to many other countries such as France.

sktibo
10-02-2017, 04:41 PM
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8801-Reference-populations-for-AncestryDNA

In this thread there's a screenshot of where Ancestry's European reference populations come from. Europe West is almost entirely German & Low Countries references, Great Britain is almost entirely English.



mother is 1/4th german from Westphalia and Wurtemburg rest catholic Irish. Father is half german mother from Baden then irish paternally Methodist who married a Irish catholic with unrecognized Hughnot and English then with some blood from the westerwald.

Came out.:
55% irish
37% british
2% finnish/Russian
2% scandanavian
<1% European east
<1% Italy/Greece
<1% jewish
<1% Iberian Peninsula
1% Caucasus

Not surprising really now that I think
about it.

Interesting, thank you for posting your results. Clearly in your case your German ancestry fell under Britain.



I agree with this post and to tie it back to the OP I think Great Britain has a higher North Germanic element to it than Europe West. That is why people native to Great Britain get higher Scandinavian scores than people from Belgium. Europe West seems to peak in Belgium. This is also why the Dutch and North Germans often get high Great Britain scores. If you look at the historical migrations of these areas it makes perfect sense as well.

Looking at the table of collected samples by Don Felipe, I notice that there are about 46 British results, only 3 Belgian results and 10 Dutch ones. There's only one German result, from CelticGerman I believe, who is abt. 70% North German IIRC and his British result is 23% - Europe West is higher in his case at 36%. Of the ten Dutch results 6 of them have Europe West as their highest component, 3 have GB, and one has Scandinavia. So, I don't think it is accurate to say that "the Dutch and North Germans often get high Great Britain scores" while this is sometimes the case, it doesn't look like often is the right word for it. We do need more than one North German sample too. While all three Belgian samples have Europe West as their primary component, a Dutch sample has the highest at 94%... so it could be that EW peaks in Belgium but it is probably safer to say it peaks in the Low Countries for the time being. Of the ~46 British samples, about 10 have Scandinavian percentages of 20% or higher, about 27 (counting quickly) have less than 10% Scandinavian. So it looks to be that less than half of the British get significant Scandinavian percentages, and while the three Belgian samples have no significant Scandinavian percentages, there are only three of them, so we definitely need more Belgian testers. However, I think that your observation could be correct on this one but at the time being we can't say for sure.
So, most of the Dutch samples collected by Don Felipe have higher Europe West than British, and the one mostly North German result also has more Europe West than GB, and therefore the evidence provided by this doesn't seem to indicate that Great Britain has a higher North Sea Germanic element to it than Europe West does. What it looks like to me is that these two categories have a very similar North Germanic element to them, as it appears to be able to go either way for these populations. Looking at the reference population locations, Europe West has a lot of Low Countries and North Germans in its references and Great Britain as a lot of Southeast English. When trying to split apart which of these is more Germanic I have a feeling that we'll end up going back and fourth as we collect more evidence more or less trying to split hairs to see which one is higher than the other because I believe these populations have quite a lot more in common than not.

Previously, Ancestry was planning on separating Great Britain and France into one Western Europe and Britain category and moving the Eastern half of Europe West into a Central Europe category, indicating they are (were?) aware of the problem with the similarity of these two categories. Unfortunately it appears they've changed their mind on this somewhat recently... http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2016/03/coming-down-ethnicity-admixture-pike.html

"Great Britain combined with Europe West — while combining these two sub-continental categories makes sense because they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of genetic affinity to each other (see Leslie et al; Schiffells et al), scientists have been able to parse British Isles from Ireland from the rest of Western Europe (see Dr. Tim Wilson's post). So DNA testers from this region expecting more specific breakdowns will be sorely disappointed."

"Europe Central cluster addition— might prove instrumental for people with genetic ancestry from populations in Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Switzerland but it remains to be seen what final biogeographical area this cluster will cover. This cluster may prove valuable with customers whose ancestors are from crossroads areas such as the Istrian peninsula (as seen on PBS Finding Your Roots [view here] with guest Lidia Bastinach, who discovered she had both Italian and Croatian roots due to the Istrian exodus). Apparently there will also be an European East cluster, which is even better. "


Based on GEDmatch calculator results I've seen for Finn I think his Ancestry DNA results would be relevant to this conversation as he appears to have a lot of "North Sea / Germanic" admixture and so if you're reading this Finn I encourage you to test with Ancestry if you are able to!

mwauthy
10-03-2017, 12:34 AM
You make a good point that Europe West might actually peak in the Netherlands rather than Belgium. I agree we need many more samples though to make any generalizations.

Whatís interesting is that Iíve never seen a sample where Europe West was the largest percentage and Scandinavian was over 20%. However, I have seen a few samples where Great Britain was the highest percentage and Scandinavia was over 20% leading me to think that the two categories might have some correlation.

sktibo
10-03-2017, 02:08 AM
You make a good point that Europe West might actually peak in the Netherlands rather than Belgium. I agree we need many more samples though to make any generalizations.

What’s interesting is that I’ve never seen a sample where Europe West was the largest percentage and Scandinavian was over 20%. However, I have seen a few samples where Great Britain was the highest percentage and Scandinavia was over 20% leading me to think that the two categories might have some correlation.

I started a thread a while ago where I posted people who had tested twice with Ancestry, (I can't seem to find this thread - might have been removed somehow?) The most consistent observation was that when people with a Great Britain percentage tested twice, the second time the Great Britain percentage split a bit into Scandinavia and or Ireland. In one case it also split into Europe West as well. Quite often, we also see people with GB percentages get significant Irish results - more often than Scandinavia, according to Don Felipe's data. There is only one GB tester who didn't get any Irish percentage - and 7 who didn't get any Scandinavia. I count 9 people who get 20% or higher Ireland who have Great Britain as their highest percentage, versus 4 Scandinavia percentages of 20% or greater who have GB as their highest percentage. My theory is that the Great Britain category is something of a split between Ireland and Scandinavia, so when the same person tests twice with a GB percentage, the percentage will most likely split into these two categories.
So, I think there is a correlation with Scandinavia for this category, but also a correlation with Ireland. I believe that this category is mostly comprised of Southeastern English references, and if my belief is correct then this would make sense as we know SE England to be a well mixed combination between Danes, Saxons, and Celts (along with many other things but I think these are the primary components more or less...)
What I'd really like to know is would we see a similar split in testers who have a lot of Europe West if they test twice? would it split into Scandinavia and Ireland as well? I'm going a bit off the rails of this thread here but I think you're correct in observing the connection to the Scandinavian category and wanted to share my thoughts on that.

On a slightly different note,
I was looking at the data and noticed that the French testers most often appear to receive Great Britain as their highest percentage, and not Europe West.. I think that is quite interesting. Only three have EW as their highest, vs. 7 for GB.

Nqp15hhu
10-03-2017, 07:22 AM
Do French people actually have any GB ancestry realistically?

People down here do have a sort of Olive skin complexion or at least a darker skin colour than the rest of the British Isles, so I wouldn't be surprised if there had been some mixing.

Finn
10-03-2017, 11:07 AM
You make a good point that Europe West might actually peak in the Netherlands rather than Belgium. I agree we need many more samples though to make any generalizations.

What’s interesting is that I’ve never seen a sample where Europe West was the largest percentage and Scandinavian was over 20%. However, I have seen a few samples where Great Britain was the highest percentage and Scandinavia was over 20% leading me to think that the two categories might have some correlation.

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8801-Reference-populations-for-AncestryDNA

In this thread there's a screenshot of where Ancestry's European reference populations come from. Europe West is almost entirely German & Low Countries references, Great Britain is almost entirely English.




Interesting, thank you for posting your results. Clearly in your case your German ancestry fell under Britain.




Looking at the table of collected samples by Don Felipe, I notice that there are about 46 British results, only 3 Belgian results and 10 Dutch ones. There's only one German result, from CelticGerman I believe, who is abt. 70% North German IIRC and his British result is 23% - Europe West is higher in his case at 36%. Of the ten Dutch results 6 of them have Europe West as their highest component, 3 have GB, and one has Scandinavia. So, I don't think it is accurate to say that "the Dutch and North Germans often get high Great Britain scores" while this is sometimes the case, it doesn't look like often is the right word for it. We do need more than one North German sample too. While all three Belgian samples have Europe West as their primary component, a Dutch sample has the highest at 94%... so it could be that EW peaks in Belgium but it is probably safer to say it peaks in the Low Countries for the time being. Of the ~46 British samples, about 10 have Scandinavian percentages of 20% or higher, about 27 (counting quickly) have less than 10% Scandinavian. So it looks to be that less than half of the British get significant Scandinavian percentages, and while the three Belgian samples have no significant Scandinavian percentages, there are only three of them, so we definitely need more Belgian testers. However, I think that your observation could be correct on this one but at the time being we can't say for sure.
So, most of the Dutch samples collected by Don Felipe have higher Europe West than British, and the one mostly North German result also has more Europe West than GB, and therefore the evidence provided by this doesn't seem to indicate that Great Britain has a higher North Sea Germanic element to it than Europe West does. What it looks like to me is that these two categories have a very similar North Germanic element to them, as it appears to be able to go either way for these populations. Looking at the reference population locations, Europe West has a lot of Low Countries and North Germans in its references and Great Britain as a lot of Southeast English. When trying to split apart which of these is more Germanic I have a feeling that we'll end up going back and fourth as we collect more evidence more or less trying to split hairs to see which one is higher than the other because I believe these populations have quite a lot more in common than not.

Previously, Ancestry was planning on separating Great Britain and France into one Western Europe and Britain category and moving the Eastern half of Europe West into a Central Europe category, indicating they are (were?) aware of the problem with the similarity of these two categories. Unfortunately it appears they've changed their mind on this somewhat recently... http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2016/03/coming-down-ethnicity-admixture-pike.html

"Great Britain combined with Europe West — while combining these two sub-continental categories makes sense because they are virtually indistinguishable in terms of genetic affinity to each other (see Leslie et al; Schiffells et al), scientists have been able to parse British Isles from Ireland from the rest of Western Europe (see Dr. Tim Wilson's post). So DNA testers from this region expecting more specific breakdowns will be sorely disappointed."

"Europe Central cluster addition— might prove instrumental for people with genetic ancestry from populations in Austria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Germany, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia, and Switzerland but it remains to be seen what final biogeographical area this cluster will cover. This cluster may prove valuable with customers whose ancestors are from crossroads areas such as the Istrian peninsula (as seen on PBS Finding Your Roots [view here] with guest Lidia Bastinach, who discovered she had both Italian and Croatian roots due to the Istrian exodus). Apparently there will also be an European East cluster, which is even better. "


Based on GEDmatch calculator results I've seen for Finn I think his Ancestry DNA results would be relevant to this conversation as he appears to have a lot of "North Sea / Germanic" admixture and so if you're reading this Finn I encourage you to test with Ancestry if you are able to!


This is obviously done with a lack of knowledge of the Dutch situation. Above and beneath the Rhine there is a significant genetical difference.

Let's take K36 oracle done by member LukaszM. It gives a good impression of the differences. NW Europeans are high in the North Sea component. See this picture

https://www.mupload.nl/img/6mpyqke2wdnph.jpg

and you can see that North Dutch North Sea results are very different from the Belgian one!

Belgium is typical West Europe (old Belgae and Frankish territory). North Dutch are Anglo, Saxon, Jutes like!

mwauthy
10-03-2017, 05:44 PM
Do French people actually have any GB ancestry realistically?

People down here do have a sort of Olive skin complexion or at least a darker skin colour than the rest of the British Isles, so I wouldn't be surprised if there had been some mixing.

France might be the most admixed country in Europe and thatís why on average the highest percentage for any region is usually in the 30% range. There is no ďFrenchĒ genetic ethnicity. It all depends on the region of France you are taking about. I think people from northwestern France get high Great Britain scores because of all the travel back and forth. Celts went to Brittany from England. Normandy was ruled by the king of England for 300 years.

If you are talking about central or Southwestern France I donít think there is very much of a Great Britain influence and instead you will see much higher percentages of Iberian and Italian.

Finn
10-03-2017, 07:18 PM
France might be the most admixed country in Europe and that’s why on average the highest percentage for any region is usually in the 30% range. There is no “French” genetic ethnicity. It all depends on the region of France you are taking about. I think people from northwestern France get high Great Britain scores because of all the travel back and forth. Celts went to Brittany from England. Normandy was ruled by the king of England for 300 years.

If you are talking about central or Southwestern France I don’t think there is very much of a Great Britain influence and instead you will see much higher percentages of Iberian and Italian.

In K36 is Iberian also a difference between West and Northwest European.

mwauthy
10-03-2017, 07:50 PM
In K36 is Iberian also a difference between West and Northwest European.

Iberian is definitely more of a Western European category on Ancestry than a Southern European component. Some companies like to differentiate between the two while others donít. For example on Ancestry I get 25% Iberian and on FTDNA 2.0 I get 0% and 23andMe I get 0.8%.

Finn
10-03-2017, 07:52 PM
Isn’t Iberian in K36 a West Med, West EEF factor?

mwauthy
10-03-2017, 07:56 PM
Isn’t Iberian in K36 a West Med, West EEF factor?

Iím not quite sure for K36; especially, how they differentiate between Iberian and Basque. On Ancestry Basque tend to score 100% Iberian.