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Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 10:15 PM
I2a introduced Indo-European to Atlantic Europe (?)

Hope the title grabs your attention/imagination.....

OK - so we all now know that Beaker R1b-L21 introduced Indo European into the Isles. The Olalde paper gives aDNA 'proof' that Eastern Beaker was 'first in' to the Isles with Steppe DNA (with the people probably speaking Indo European). The Olalde Middle Bronze Age sample from Canada Farm shows that L21 took over and dominated the Isles from its arrival.
That is great because I have had that in my archaeogenetic modelling for years - to the extent I gave myself (as an R1b-L21 male) the name Net down G5L - a Wessex culture Bronze Age barrow burial from Southern England (Shrewton G5L barrow on Net Down). So, I was right all those years about the Wessex Culture being R1b-L21..........or was I???

I am now 'thinking the unthinkable' and wondering if the Wessex Culture - with its strong trading links to Unetice - could have been I2a2 dominated. The archaeology shows the Wessex Culture clearly 'conflicted' with R1b-L21 dominated Beaker in southern England.
And also 'thinking the unthinkable' .......... could an I2a dominated culture have been the first in to Atlantic Europe carrying Indo European?

Why the about turn? Well, not so much a u-turn - but as some of you have seen - I have always been looking to push the bounds beyond the 'received wisdom' to explore and test a new hypothesis. The new Mathieson update samples, other recent papers, Anthrogenica discussions (including some of Gravetto Danubian's provocative comments), and Eurogenes blog contributions raise a few questions for me.

So, here are some background observations.......

- For some years, I have modelled I2a as spreading the megalithic culture with a migration from the Balkans - via France - to the Atlantic (south to Iberia and North to the Isles/Scandinavia introducing passage graves).
- I recently suggested, speculatively, that I2a2 (possibly from the Balkans via France and Belgium?) could have had a further input to Orkney c.3200BCE introducing the Orkney vole (and also be related to Grooved Ware, henges, stone circles etc).
- I have also very recently been thinking about the Needham's 'Lost Halberd Culture' that potentially links Copper Age Italy, Iberia, France, Isles, the Unetice culture and....also ... possibly the Mycenae.

That raises questions for me, such as:

- what is the relationship between Eastern Europe, (Jean's) Stelae (people), the distribution of halberds, Maritime Beaker people, and the Lost Culture of the Halberd Bearers?; and,

- how do these 'interactions' relate to I2a2, the Balkans, the spread of copper working....... and, possibly, the spread of Indo European language?


My next post will be a starter on the 'Lost Culture of the Halberd Bearers'

Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 10:20 PM
The Lost Culture of the Halberd Bearers

I have had 'Celtic from the West 3' sitting on my bookshelf for some time. I only recently read Needham's chapter 2 'The Lost cultures of the Halberd Bearers; A Non-Beaker Ideology in Later Third Millenium Atlantic Europe'

My very simplified summary of his chapter is that he suggests there was a division of territories between competing cultures in swathes of Atlantic Europe in the later 3rd Millenium BCE. Beaker expansion was 'opposed' by 'halberd bearing people' who could have either been the existing pre-Beaker population of the areas (united against Beaker invasion) or could be mixed with a parallel migration of halberd bearing people who introduced copper working into (for example) France.
Needham's diagram shows the distribution over time of Neolithic/Bronze age halberd deposition (so possible 'halberd related culture').
The map shows the possible Chalcolithic division of Ireland between Beaker communities and copper halberd bearer communities.

1909919100


So what Y dna were the halberd bearer communities?
Well, the existing 'megalithic' population may have been I2a dominated. And any fresh Balkan migrants may have been I2a2 dominated........but what sub-clades and what related haplogroups? That is where it gets interesting and at the limits of our knowledge. I also wonder what the autosomal data will tell us when we look for changes in EHG in (eg Balkan, Orkney) I2a2 (pre-CHG).

rms2
10-01-2017, 10:22 PM
So, where is your PIE Urheimat? The Balkans?

I guess you have dispensed with the need for steppe dna, if you are arguing that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic, since thus far none of the ancient I2a in western Europe has any steppe dna.

Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 10:34 PM
So, where is your PIE Urheimat? The Balkans?

I guess you have dispensed with the need for steppe dna, if you are arguing that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic, since thus far none of the ancient I2a in western Europe has any steppe dna.

We know I2a made excursions into the Steppe and was present in the Ukraine pre CHG.

Does the Olalde paper study changes in the EHG in I2a of the Isles between the early/middle and late Neolithic?

I am interested in the possible impact of I2a movements to the archaeology of the Atlantic. I don't care much about the actual language but put IE in the title to catch attention. However, I see no reason why PIE could only be spoken by people with a CHG component in their DNA. Remember, the Steppe existed before CHG arrived there so ancient DNA from the Steppe does not have to contain CHG.

rms2
10-01-2017, 10:40 PM
We know I2a made excursions into the Steppe and was present in the Ukraine pre CHG.

Does the Olalde paper study changes in the EHG in I2a of the Isles between the early/middle and late Neolithic?

I am interested in the possible impact of I2a movements to the archaeology of the Atlantic. I don't care much about the actual language but put IE in the title to catch attention. However, I see no reason why PIE could only be spoken by people with a CHG component in their DNA. Remember, the Steppe existed before CHG arrived there so ancient DNA from the Steppe does not have to contain CHG.

Olalde et al said the Neolithic population of Britain was closest to the Neolithic population of Iberia. I think that means mostly EEF+WHG with no EHG.

I think we're looking at a population native to western Europe since the Mesolithic if not earlier.

Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 10:48 PM
Olalde et al said the Neolithic population of Britain was closest to the Neolithic population of Iberia. I think that means mostly EEF+WHG with no EHG.

I think we're looking at a population native to western Europe since the Mesolithic if not earlier.

Suggest you try looking at the actual data and the additional info in the Olalde paper. What is there - and what is not there - is interesting and what you think may well be wrong.

So - to the point of the initial posts - what is your view on Needhams Halberd bearers? Could his analysis be a crucial 'missing link' in understanding the Chalcolithic/early Bronze Age of the Atlantic?

rms2
10-01-2017, 10:58 PM
Suggest you try looking at the actual data and the additional info in the Olalde paper. What is there - and what is not there - is interesting and what you think may well be wrong.

So - to the point of the initial posts - what is your view on Needhams Halberd bearers? Could his analysis be a crucial 'missing link' in understanding the Chalcolithic/early Bronze Age of the Atlantic?

The Olalde et al raw data have not been released, and I don't recall any discussion, tables or figures of EHG for Neolithic Britain in the paper. It's already pretty well known that Neolithic Iberians did not have EHG, but were a combination of EEF and WHG.

I have read Olalde et al more than once. I may have some wrong ideas about it, but I haven't seen any evidence in it that even remotely supports the idea that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic.

Here's this from page 3 of Olalde et al:



British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion.


I don't know who the Halberd bearers were.

rms2
10-01-2017, 11:10 PM
Suggest you try looking at the actual data and the additional info in the Olalde paper. What is there - and what is not there - is interesting and what you think may well be wrong . . .

I've got a suggestion: You're making the claim and pushing the boundaries, etc., why don't you look at the data and use them to support your claim?

BTW, I have looked at the Olalde et al data pretty carefully. No steppe dna or R1b-P312 in Britain before Bell Beaker, but I2a was there in the steppe-dna-free Neolithic population, a population which most closely resembled the Neolithic population of Iberia.

Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 11:11 PM
"British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion"

OR - a proportion of both Iberian and British Neolithic "farmers" were from the same megalithic population source.
There can be different interpretations of the data presented.





I don't know who the Halberd bearers were.

Try reading Needhams work. He is one of Britains most knowledgable and thoughtful archaeologists.

alexfritz
10-01-2017, 11:33 PM
"British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion"

OR - a proportion of both Iberian and British Neolithic "farmers" were from the same megalithic population source.
There can be different interpretations of the data presented.

Try reading Needhams work. He is one of Britains most knowledgable and thoughtful archaeologists.

the way i understand it is that the common populations source for all farmers (incl megalithic farmers) are the common anatolian farmers i.e. megalithic farmers in britain, scandinavia and iberia share a common root in anatolia; examplified by madame ballynahatty(megalithic site) and the TRB gökham farmers; in olalde et al the england_neolithic and scotland_neolithic (rich in I2a) are suppTableS4 as >70% anatolian_n (>20%WHG) and 0%yamnaya_samara; NE1 (danubian farmer) Ballynahatty (atlantic megalithic farmer) affinities to modern pops - cassidy et al;
19102

what i have read though is that the atlantic farmers possessed the lacPersis mutation(in minority) in contrast to the other farmers so far tested Witas et al / Plantinga et al;
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n7/full/ejhg2011254a.html?foxtrotcallback=true

rms2
10-01-2017, 11:44 PM
"British Neolithic farmers were genetically similar to contemporary populations in continental Europe and in particular to Neolithic Iberians, suggesting that a portion of the farmer ancestry in Britain came from the Mediterranean rather than the Danubian route of farming expansion"

OR - a proportion of both Iberian and British Neolithic "farmers" were from the same megalithic population source.
There can be different interpretations of the data presented.

It matters little which interpretation one accepts in this case. Either way, they were Neolithic farmers and at least some of their ancestors came from the same source population. They had no steppe dna.



Try reading Needhams work. He is one of Britains most knowledgable and thoughtful archaeologists.

Any ancient dna from the Halberd bearers? Not that I've heard, but maybe you know.

I may read Needham sometime. Right now I don't have the time or the inclination.

Net Down G5L
10-01-2017, 11:49 PM
I've got a suggestion: You're making the claim and pushing the boundaries, etc., why don't you look at the data and use them to support your claim?

BTW, I have looked at the Olalde et al data pretty carefully. No steppe dna or R1b-P312 in Britain before Bell Beaker, but I2a was there in the steppe-dna-free Neolithic population, a population which most closely resembled the Neolithic population of Iberia.

I think what you mean to say is that there is no evidence of CHG in the DNA of Neolithic samples from the Isles.

I think the possible 'Halberd culture / connection' is very interesting because it shows some strong links between I2a populations pre-CHG (e.g. France, Iberia etc) and post CHG e.g. (Unetice).

Look at the timescales on the initial diagram I posted.

I think most people would expect Unetice to be PIE.......and it had very strong links to the Halberd communities of Ireland and the Wessex Culture of S England in the EBA (also Italy, France, Iberia, Mediterranean). Untangling a halberd culture (if such a thing existed) from Maritime Beaker and the Stelae story is potentially interesting and challenging.

Wessex Culture is interesting because it did not have halberds...but did have exotic prestige (gold covered) halberd pendants. I was assuming after Rathlin was DF21 that Wessex would be another DF13 early 'explosion' such as Z253 or DF49 but the competition with L21 Beaker people (Martin 2011) and the halberd connection has made me stop and think. Is it really that simple? Did all I2a keel over and die of the plague when L21 arrived from the Steppe (Olalde's 93% replacement) ....or was Parker Pearson right when he suggested that the collared urn cremation people (Wessex etc) were the Neolithic population making a comeback (so I2a).

Maybe Needham is wrong.

But if he is right, it suggests a possible complex I2a2 network that was in competition to the Eastern Beaker network....and quite how Iberian Beaker would relate...???

Whether or not any pre-CHG I2a had a PIE connection is not important. What is important is understanding the people and the connectivity - that could give an explanation to some of the archaeology 'puzzles' that have remained unsolved for many years.
O' Flaherty raised the question - what is the link between these halberd groups - back in 1988. He considered it impossible to answer. Perhaps an I2a2 DNA link is a key step forward towards understanding it?

The Early Bronze Age Halberd: A History of Research and a Brief Guide to the Sources
Ronan O'Flaherty
The Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland
Vol. 128 (1998), pp. 74-94

rms2
10-01-2017, 11:51 PM
I think to assert that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic one is forced to postulate a PIE Urheimat other than the steppe, since the ancient I2a in western Europe thus far has no steppe dna. Or one has to accept Renfrew's Anatolian farmer hypothesis for IE (which also means an Anatolian PIE Urheimat).

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 12:06 AM
the way i understand it is that the common populations source for all farmers (incl megalithic farmers) are the common anatolian farmers i.e. megalithic farmers in britain, scandinavia and iberia share a common root in anatolia;


Thanks for the valuable input.

What puzzles me is this....what are the sub-clades of I2a that have been discovered in Anatolian aDNA and how do they relate to, for example, Orkadian Neolithic 'farmers'?

rms2
10-02-2017, 12:06 AM
I think what you mean to say is that there is no evidence of CHG in the DNA of Neolithic samples from the Isles.

No, I don't think that's what I meant to say. If there was EHG in the Neolithic samples in the Isles they would have borne at least some resemblance to Yamnaya, minus the CHG, but they don't. Instead they are typical Neolithic farmers like those in Iberia and elsewhere on the continent, about 75% Anatolia Neolithic and 25% WHG (see Table S4 in the Olalde et al Supplementary Information, p. 85).




I think the possible 'Halberd culture / connection' is very interesting because it shows some strong links between I2a populations pre-CHG (e.g. France, Iberia etc) and post CHG e.g. (Unetice) . . .

You're jumping the gun, aren't you? Has any I2a been found among the Halberd bearers?

From what little I have read of the halberds, they were produced between 2400 and 2200 BC, which was part of the Beaker period in the Isles. I always thought they were of BB manufacture. What if the halberd bearers were simply a particular group of BB people who made halberds?



Maybe Needham is wrong.


Has he claimed a connection between I2a and the halberd bearers?



But if he is right, it suggests a possible complex I2a2 network that was in competition to the Eastern Beaker network....and quite how Iberian Beaker would relate...??? . . .

How does it suggest an I2a2 network?

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 12:10 AM
I think to assert that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic one is forced to postulate a PIE Urheimat other than the steppe, since the ancient I2a in western Europe thus far has no steppe dna. Or one has to accept Renfrew's Anatolian farmer hypothesis for IE (which also means an Anatolian PIE Urheimat).

If you want to postulate that - fine. I am not.

I believe if you understand the genetics and the archaeology first then you will find it easier to slot in the language.

So, understanding of the archaeology and genetics? Halberds and sub-clades of I2a??

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 12:24 AM
From what little I have read of the halberds, they were produced between 2400 and 2200 BC, which was part of the Beaker period in the Isles. I always thought they were of BB manufacture. What if the halberd bearers were simply a particular group of BB people who made halberds?



If you know nothing about halberds or the dates they were around, or the locations and how they relate to Beaker - at least look at the images I went to the trouble to upload for you.

And no, Needham is not a geneticist. I am the one suggesting that there may be an I2a link between Unetice, Remedello, Neolithic Atlantic Iberia, France and the Isles. I am sure everybody on this forum is aware of the aDNA papers that include Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age samples across and cultures those locations so I have no intention to list them all out.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2017, 12:31 AM
So, where is your PIE Urheimat? The Balkans?

I guess you have dispensed with the need for steppe dna, if you are arguing that I2a brought IE to the Atlantic, since thus far none of the ancient I2a in western Europe has any steppe dna.

it has been recapped several times that there are so many different I2a Clades spread so far and with completely contrasting autosomal genomics even beyond the neolithic

alexfritz
10-02-2017, 12:59 AM
Thanks for the valuable input.

What puzzles me is this....what are the sub-clades of I2a that have been discovered in Anatolian aDNA and how do they relate to, for example, Orkadian Neolithic 'farmers'?

i think the Ychr I2a lineage is from the intermixed with WHG folks; how that dynamic played out is truly still puzzling in detail as mathieson et al suppTable5 suggests the WHG admix in Iberia_Chl folks to be derived dominantly from males rather than females as also the GAC folks display their WHG admix being more dominantly male than female; that I2a became the dominant farmers lineages spanned the entire continent and is still evident in modern sards (I2a1aM26);

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2017, 01:18 AM
I don't know much about halberd specifically, but you are right to suggest that early copper in Western Europe was introduced by certain I2a2 varieties from Hungary / north Balkans/ eastern alps, exactly which requires more raw data
I would separate these from the true megalithics, who are I2a1-L161
It would be hard to argue either were PIE for western europe, given the large scale lineage replacemement which arrived with BB from 2400BC.

But of course, there is steppe variety I2a2; and I2s in Unetice but that's more pertinent to Central and SEE.

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 02:16 AM
I don't know much about halberd specifically, but you are right to suggest that early copper in Western Europe was introduced by certain I2a2 varieties from Hungary / north Balkans/ eastern alps, exactly which requires more raw data
I would separate these from the true megalithics, who are I2a1-L161
It would be hard to argue either were PIE for western europe, given the large scale lineage replacemement which arrived with BB from 2400BC.

But of course, there is steppe variety I2a2; and I2s in Unetice but that's more pertinent to Central and SEE.

1 Megalithic I2 DNA
Yes, the true megalith I2a1-L161 are present in Orkney Tomb of the Eagles, Holm of Papa Westray etc. . However, so are many I2a2a CTS10057. Are the I2a2a also "true megalithic"? I have wondered if the sample data was refined we may fand they are date to 3200BCE onwards and link to post passage grave building phase - ie. grooved ware related activity. Hence my thinking of a possible later input - Orkney vole related and all that. However, more different I2a2 sub clades to disentangle - and no halberd connections to Orkney.

2 Halberds and possible steppe connections
I recall that you had a discussion with RMS about Remedello on the Beaker thread some time ago (2 years!). RMS was arguing the Gimbutas 'kurgan' type culture and you were suggesting this would have to be with I2a DNA so Kurgan did not necessarily equal just R1b.........
.....so where are we on that two years on.......and how do halberds fit in with this?

Halberds appear in the Remedello Culture. Halberds also appear on warrier Stelae.

OK, maybe a long shot (and I am more interested in discussing the archaeology rather than speculating about language)....but why could Remedello not be a 'steppe influenced' I2a male line dominated culture. And if Steppe influenced could that have extended to language?

Generalissimo
10-02-2017, 04:20 AM
The Remedello samples don't show any hints of steppe admixture, or even anything from the Balkans.

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 07:05 AM
The Remedello samples don't show any hints of steppe admixture, or even anything from the Balkans.

This is some of what Bartelheim and Pearce 2015 had to say about copper working / Stelae in the sub-region.

19103

It gives a flavour of how complex the archaeology may be.

Of course it is possible that copper working and warrior stelae were culturally transferred by passing ideas through the Starcevo-Koros-Cris (and follow on cultures) G2a/I2a farmer network.
Or, at another extreme, it is possible we may find the Rinaldone Culture contained Z2103 migrants.
Or is it also possible there may be something extra going on in I2a communities and movements may be partially hidden under KO1 type shifts in Neolithic populations. (I honestly have no idea on that one - I am sure you do , and may well laugh it right out of court.)

But I do have serious doubts that the spread of copper working and warrior stelae (also of halberd production and use) was purely by the spread of ideas with no movement of people involved.

Generalissimo
10-02-2017, 07:44 AM
This is some of what Bartelheim and Pearce 2015 had to say about copper working / Stelae in the sub-region.

19103

It gives a flavour of how complex the archaeology may be.

Of course it is possible that copper working and warrior stelae were culturally transferred by passing ideas through the Starcevo-Koros-Cris (and follow on cultures) G2a/I2a farmer network.
Or, at another extreme, it is possible we may find the Rinaldone Culture contained Z2103 migrants.
Or is it also possible there may be something extra going on in I2a communities and movements may be partially hidden under KO1 type shifts in Neolithic populations. (I honestly have no idea on that one - I am sure you do , and may well laugh it right out of court.)

But I do have serious doubts that the spread of copper working and warrior stelae (also of halberd production and use) was purely by the spread of ideas with no movement of people involved.

The Remedello genomes aren't much different from the one late Baden sample currently available, so there may have been significant population movements between northern Italy and the Carpathian Basin before the Baden people were inhaled and replaced by migrants from the steppe.

But if this was the case, and it's the explanation for what you're seeing in the archaeological data, then it probably means this is an Old Europe phenomenon, unless of course we say that the cultures from the Carpathian Basin that Remedello had contacts with, like perhaps late Baden, were already Indo-European.

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 08:04 AM
The Remedello genomes aren't much different from the one late Baden sample currently available, so there may have been significant population movements between northern Italy and the Carpathian Basin before the Baden people were inhaled and replaced by migrants from the steppe.

But if this was the case, and it's the explanation for what you're seeing in the archaeological data, then it probably means this is an Old Europe phenomenon, unless of course we say that the cultures from the Carpathian Basin that Remedello had contacts with, like perhaps late Baden, were already Indo-European.

Gimbutas had late Baden as an Indo-European Kurgan culture.
I remember years ago looking into Baden as an possible source/route for the arrival of cremation in the Isles (c3200-2900BCE) but finding no compelling evidence to support a link.
The Baden sample is female H and quite late (2900-2700 BCE)? Must confess I have never looked at that sample in any detail but I guess you have covered it on your blog some time in the past.

Generalissimo
10-02-2017, 08:16 AM
Gimbutas had late Baden as an Indo-European Kurgan culture.
I remember years ago looking into Baden as an possible source/route for the arrival of cremation in the Isles (c3200-2900BCE) but finding no compelling evidence to support a link.
The Baden sample is female H and quite late (2900-2700 BCE)? Must confess I have never looked at that sample in any detail but I guess you have covered it on your blog some time in the past.

Not in any great detail. It's a fairly typical Europe MN sample though, with an extra bit of WHG compared to LBK, and very similar to Remedello.

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 08:21 AM
Gimbutas had late Baden as an Indo-European Kurgan culture.


Just double checked. Gimbutas 1979 'Three Waves of Kurgan Peoples' describes Baden (on pages 123-125) as part of the Kurgan Wave 2.

edit: Eeek - don't want this thread to become 'another Gimbutas thread'. Plenty of that elsewhere.
Plenty of other discussions possible....
e.g. What about I2a2 origins? If Orkney Grooved ware I2a2 and Steppe I2a2 have a common ancestor a loooong way back (CTS 10057 - Y Full c. 8000 - 9000BCE) where might that ancestor have been living.
e.g. what about a possible I2a2 'halberd bearer' linkage - pre and post CHG arrival into I2a2 in central/western Europe?
e.g. Why does Gravetto Danubian (if I understand his posts correctly) think that Unetice has I2a2 steppe related migrants from the Balkans - and why did these people use halberds and link so closely with , for example, Irish halberd makers in the Irish Chalcolithic(in parallel/competition with Eastern Beaker if Needham is correct)?

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2017, 08:31 AM
Just double checked. Gimbutas 1979 'Three Waves of Kurgan Peoples' describes Baden (on pages 123-125) as part of the Kurgan Wave 2.

edit: Eeek - don't want this thread to become 'another Gimbutas thread'. Plenty of that elsewhere.

I wouldn't worry what Gimbutas said, it's basically antiquity. If one has the ability to read widely and contemporary, there is ample more relevant literature on such matters

alexfritz
10-02-2017, 08:42 AM
I wouldn't worry what Gimbutas said, it's basically antiquity. If one has the ability to read widely and contemporary, there is ample more relevant literature on such matters

in that regard i agree, when gimbutas published her works G2a2a ötzi wasnt even found and his unique finding with the copper axe had to back date the copper industry in the eastern alps by a good 400years; begging the actual question why than by the 3rdmilbc the alpine farmers had the luxury to lit bury their copper weapons and tools; what is def known from aDNA is that this sub region (po valley/alpine fringe) was inhabited ~2000bc by a beaker-steppe type I2478 (R1bP312) and a remedello-farmer type RISE486 (I2a1a);

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 09:00 AM
Not in any great detail. It's a fairly typical Europe MN sample though, with an extra bit of WHG compared to LBK, and very similar to Remedello.

Ok, so LBK was G2a dominated (?) and later middle Neolithic farming communities were admixed with I2a - probably (? IMO) including movement of I2a people.

So, what would the DNA of a Baden person look like if there had been some 'pre-CHG steppe admixture' that carried Kurgan ideas into Baden. (I guess the answer also depends on the level of input and the amount of time the signal had to be diluted/washed out). Given the 'overlap' between EHG/WHG 'signals' could there not be some Steppe influence hidden in the apparent WHG shift? Genuine question that I would greatly value your wisdom on.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2017, 09:04 AM
in that regard i agree, when gimbutas published her works G2a2a ötzi wasnt even found and his unique finding with the copper axe had to back date the copper industry in the eastern alps by a good 400years; begging the actual question why than by the 3rdmilbc the alpine farmers had the luxury to lit bury their copper weapons and tools; what is def known from aDNA is that this sub region (po valley/alpine fringe) was inhabited ~2000bc by a beaker-steppe type I2478 (R1bP312) and a remedello-farmer type RISE486 (I2a1a);

And that's where GSL has a point. The collapse of the Balkan copper centres 4000 BC led to reverberations far and wide,- a result of the "monopoly" held previously by places as Rudna Glava and Varna being lost. We see development of copper centres in alps and Majkop now, together with subtle evidence of population movements.
The evidence is all there, if one knows what to look for.
All the talk on other thread about BB takes yamnaya t=0, a sort of false Construct.

Generalissimo
10-02-2017, 09:25 AM
Ok, so LBK was G2a dominated (?) and later middle Neolithic farming communities were admixed with I2a - probably (? IMO) including movement of I2a people.

So, what would the DNA of a Baden person look like if there had been some 'pre-CHG steppe admixture' that carried Kurgan ideas into Baden. (I guess the answer also depends on the level of input and the amount of time the signal had to be diluted/washed out). Given the 'overlap' between EHG/WHG 'signals' could there not be some Steppe influence hidden in the apparent WHG shift? Genuine question that I would greatly value your wisdom on.

If Baden had significant steppe admixture, even if this admixture came without any CHG, it'd be shifted east relative to other Europe MN samples. But it's not, and in fact, Gokhem is shifted east slightly compared to Baden probably due to a little bit of local Scandinavian forager admix.

Net Down G5L
10-02-2017, 10:07 AM
If Baden had significant steppe admixture, even if this admixture came without any CHG, it'd be shifted east relative to other Europe MN samples. But it's not, and in fact, Gokhem is shifted east slightly compared to Baden probably due to a little bit of local Scandinavian forager admix.

Yes, thanks. That is why I was trying to understand wider MN genomes in case they also showed an eastern shift. e.g. I wondered if the later Orkney samples showed an eastern shift relative to the earliest Orkney samples but I could not see analysis in the Olalde paper to check that. That is why I would like to see comparison of the earliest and later Orkney genomes to see it there is any shift to the east. If I can totally rule out that possibility it narrows down the options for me.

rms2
10-02-2017, 10:50 AM
it has been recapped several times that there are so many different I2a Clades spread so far and with completely contrasting autosomal genomics even beyond the neolithic

But we are talking about western Europe and I2a samples thus far completely lacking steppe dna.

rms2
10-02-2017, 11:09 AM
If you want to postulate that - fine. I am not.

Why would I do that? You are the one who said that maybe I2a brought IE to the Atlantic. Since ancient western European I2a is thus far without steppe dna, if you are going to maintain that position, you'll need a new PIE Urheimat somewhere other than the steppe.



I believe if you understand the genetics and the archaeology first then you will find it easier to slot in the language.

The genetics include the fact that ancient western European I2a thus far is completely lacking in steppe dna. British Neolithic people were about 75% Anatolian Neolithic and 25 % WHG and most closely resembled Iberian Neolithic farmers.

The archaeology at this point involves claims about halberdiers for whom we have no ancient dna. Maybe they were I2a, but maybe they weren't.

Slotting in the language involves the realization that PIE arose somewhere between early Kartvelian on the one hand and early Uralic on the other, i.e., the steppe.

I2a2 has in fact turned up in Yamnaya, but it's eastern and loaded with steppe dna. We don't see that in ancient western European I2a thus far.



So, understanding of the archaeology and genetics? Halberds and sub-clades of I2a??

Since no one knows yet, maybe, but that's less the product of understanding than of guesswork.

rms2
10-02-2017, 11:21 AM
Gimbutas had late Baden as an Indo-European Kurgan culture . . .

My memory may be faulty on this, but, as I recall, Gimbutas said Baden was a hybrid culture with a Mediterranean-type Neolithic farmer base and an overlay of ruling Kurgan elites. I'm not at home to check on that, and I could be misremembering.

Gravetto-Danubian
10-02-2017, 04:23 PM
Found a good recording of Svend Hansen. He links to rise of daggers, halberds, chiefs, stelae spanning from Atlantic Europe to the Caucasus in late IVth millenium. Not surprisingly, these seem to have arise in the north Caucasus region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9jzT34AhI

Isidro
10-02-2017, 07:05 PM
Here is more about halberds.
http://www.academia.edu/620457/Some_Remarks_on_the_origin_and_chronology_of_halbe rds_in_Europe

Net Down G5L
10-03-2017, 08:21 AM
Here is more about halberds.
http://www.academia.edu/620457/Some_Remarks_on_the_origin_and_chronology_of_halbe rds_in_Europe

Interesting.

The author has halberds later dated and spreading from Ireland in the Bronze Age.

Needham has halberds earlier and spreading from Remedello in the Chalcolithic.

However, everybody I read seems convinced there is some sort of cultural connection / transfer betweeen Ireland, Remedello, Unetice, El Argar etc.

Net Down G5L
10-03-2017, 08:51 AM
Found a good recording of Svend Hansen. He links to rise of daggers, halberds, chiefs, stelae spanning from Atlantic Europe to the Caucasus in late IVth millenium. Not surprisingly, these seem to have arise in the north Caucasus region.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6j9jzT34AhI

Thanks, I will find time to watch later today.

I am in agreement with you on the need to understand I2a clades in depth. I increasingly believe that understanding the I2a network is fundamental to understanding the Late Neolithic, Chalcolithic and Bronze Age transformations of central and western Europe.
I for one have been too transfixed on the migrations of R1a and R1b from the Steppe.

It seems to me that I2a was not only a 'power' for continuity through the middle/late neolithic and Chalcolithic/EBA but it was also a 'power' for change during that period.
However, while R1a nad R1b related change may have been tied closely to migrational events, the I2a 'change' may have been partly migration based but also much more related to the transmission of ideas/changes through its longstanding and widespread network.
I think understanding the I2a role will be rather more challenging than identifying the high level migrations for R1a and R1b.

So to facilitate discussion I am attaching two pages from my notes on I2a1 and I2a2.
It is rough and ready but small start at distinguishing clades, locations, links to aDNA samples and timescales.

1912319124

Net Down G5L
10-03-2017, 09:21 AM
Eastern Bell Beaker v Maritime Bell Beaker v Halberd Culture.

When i look at Eastern Beaker in the Isled during the Chalcolithic I see Beaker transforming during the fission phase around 2200BC and Food vessel (DF210 being a closely related but culturally slightly different 'cousin' culture.

I am wondering if Remedello / El Argar halberd societies could be regarded as closely related ' cousin' cultures to Maritime Beaker. Needham distinguishes Halberd from Beaker in Iberia but acknowledges the split is 'greyer' compared to Ireland. At various places hoards containing both Maritime Beaker Palmella points and halberds have been found.

Are Remedello, El Argar, Iberian Maritime Beaker hybrid 'indo-europeanised' cultures that adopted some Indo-European practices through culturel transmission/sharing of ideas.

If so, did this resulted in some hybrid burial practices linking single grave elements to existing megalithic elements but maybe becoming more Indo-European single grave like over time eventually adopting kurgan style burials in the Unetice and Wessex -(but still retaining Neolithic traits like cremation in the Wessex burials).

Did an I2a network adopt Indo-Europen cultural practices over time. And if so, did this, at any stage, include the Indo-Europen language? And what was the role of Stelae/stelae people in introducing these ideas (a distinct flow of ideas distinct from Corded/Eastern beaker.) And what was the dna of Stelae people if they existed.

As a throw away...
is Corded derived from Sredny Stog related origins / migrations...with Eastern Beaker closely grafted against this...
...and is Iberian/Maritime Beaker derived from a minor genetic input somewhere into central Europe (possibly isolated individuals into Iberia?) (from Yamnaya??) but primarily then cultural transmission and adaption through the I2a network.

Jean M
11-08-2017, 10:39 AM
The author has halberds later dated and spreading from Ireland in the Bronze Age.

Needham has halberds earlier and spreading from Remedello in the Chalcolithic.

Here is a stele from Arco, Northern Italy, of the Remedello Culture, showing Remedello daggers and halberds. From Brandherm D. 2004, Porteurs de hallebardes? Überlegungen zur Herkunft, Entwicklung und Funktion der bronzezeitlichen Stabklingen, Varia Neolithica III, pp. 279-334. (Via Jeunesse 2015 L’Italie et l’émergence de l’idéologie du guerrier dans la seconde moitié du 4ème millénaire av. J.-C.)

19640

[Added] Jeunesse says "We know today, thanks to the Italian discoveries (funeral furniture and iconography) that the appearance of the halberd (with flint or copper blades) must be unambiguously placed before the emergence of Bell Beaker".

creditcard
02-14-2018, 06:17 PM
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