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View Full Version : Any progress on R1b-L11* (known at FTDNA as P310+ U106- P312-) ?



lgmayka
08-14-2013, 11:32 AM
A new project member, kit 276726, is a fairly close match to kit E4034, who has tested L11+ P310+ U106- P312- . The first guy is wondering whether it would be worth the money to order Geno 2.0. I am hesitant because--if I recall correctly--Geno 2.0 does not detect P312. Thus, he may have to spend $39 in addition to the $220 or so to order Geno 2.0 from overseas.

Has Geno 2.0 been any help at all for R1b-L11* ?

GoldenHind
08-14-2013, 05:08 PM
You are correct that Geno 2.0 does not test for P312.
I can't answer the rest of your question.

TigerMW
08-14-2013, 09:58 PM
A new project member, kit 276726, is a fairly close match to kit E4034, who has tested L11+ P310+ U106- P312- . The first guy is wondering whether it would be worth the money to order Geno 2.0. I am hesitant because--if I recall correctly--Geno 2.0 does not detect P312. Thus, he may have to spend $39 in addition to the $220 or so to order Geno 2.0 from overseas.

Has Geno 2.0 been any help at all for R1b-L11* ?

Please ask 276726 to join the R1b project but I need to ask everyone for help.
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1b/default.aspx?vgroup=r1b&section=yresults

Go down to the bottom of the classic results and you'll see this subgrouping I created because I haven't figured out what to do with them.

Ungrouped temporarily but Geno 2 tested (will be moved to subgrouping)

227955 Clemens Luscher, b. 1632, d. aft 1680 Switzerland R1b1a2a1a1
248180 John Carpenter b.1788 d.1865, Lycoming PA England R1b1a2a1a1
109950 Henrik Räihä Toiwakainen,1723 -1782, Ii, Finland Finland R1b1a2a1a1
248663 John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a1
N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a1
273775 Joseph Mandeville, b 1884, Quebec Canada R1b1a2a1a1
N113291 William Holme, 1690 United Kingdom R1b1a2a1a1

Because P312 isn't in Geno 2 I don't know if they are P312+ or P312-. I was hoping we'd see some of the CTS SNPs that might have equivalents that I don't know about (and that FTDNA doesn't seem to comprehend yet either haplogroup-wise.)

My action item was to load them into both my P312xL21 file and my R1b-Early-Clades file and see if there were matches, but I guess either way I have to ask them to test P312 a la carte. I just haven't gotten around to it, but the big R1b Gateway project is the right place for these guys. I just need to get on the stick or get help.

lgmayka
08-14-2013, 11:41 PM
Two members of your project have Geno 2.0 results, are listed as R-P310, and have explicitly tested P312- : kits N24160 and 16296. Morley's predictor (http://ytree.morleydna.com/) claims that both of them are R1b1a2a1a2~2, meaning P312+ (wrong) and CTS4528+ (possibly significant). Other kits that have tested CTS4528+ are 248663, N112805, and N4846. Unfortunately, N4846 has tested P312+ , so perhaps CTS4528 is unstable.

ballardgen
02-02-2014, 01:33 PM
These posts needed updating they are misleading to new readers. Currently!!!!

Geno 2.0 Does no test for P312 - so its absence does not make it a positive - CTS4528 exists as a Terminal Haplogroup
http://www.semargl.me/de/dna/ydna/item-snp/2243/

L11*/P312* (P312x U106x) x="negative" should join the correct project - for up to date testing advice.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a

Heber
02-02-2014, 02:06 PM
Here is my Geno 2.0 analysis for DF21
1349
And here is my Geno 2.0 coverage analysis.
1350

http://www.pinterest.com/gerardcorcoran/genographic/

Rathna
02-02-2014, 02:36 PM
These posts needed updating they are misleading to new readers. Currently!!!!

Geno 2.0 Does no test for P312 - so its absence does not make it a positive - CTS4528 exists as a Terminal Haplogroup
http://www.semargl.me/de/dna/ydna/item-snp/2243/

L11*/P312* (P312x U106x) x="negative" should join the correct project - for up to date testing advice.
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a

Hi, descendant of Simone Bellardi from Lucca. I think that we cannot expect to-day to find an R-L11* as we don't find an R-P297* nor an R-L23*, because from when those haplotypes existed every descendant has had many other SNPs (mutations in his Y), about 40 if one is tested by the BigY or more if tested by the Full Y.
This doesn't falsify your idea that those Bellardis were of Langobard descent nor that the subclades of L11/CTS4528 come from North Europe where German peoples lived.
Only by collecting and examining all these subclades of L11*, beginning from P312*, we'll be able to understand where L11* lived, as I am trying to understand where L23* lived by examining all the subclades beginning from L51 but also from my Z2110* and before Z2106* etc.

ballardgen
02-02-2014, 05:51 PM
Hi Rathna,

Would you not agree that if the samples from this L11/CTS4528 group were dated against each other we would find CTS4528 to be "non recent"


6.a. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> - Geno 2.0 tested 258423 Ballard John Ballard c.1300. Eywas Lacy, Herefordshire, England. England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12
278944 Bickford William Ballard, b. 1805 - Bristol, England. (Illig son of Miss Bickford) England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 21-23 14 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
142454 Troost Jacob Jobse 1551/1626 Ouddorp Netherland. Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 38-41 12 12
16296 Foster James Foster b. 1826 Madison Co Ky. England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 18 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 27 26 19 12 12 14 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 24 15 19 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 15 9 12 11
226232 Carnley Lewis Carnley, 1770-1843. - Baden-Württemberg. Germany R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 18 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 24 21 13 12 11 11 11 11 12 12
248663 Crew John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 14 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 28
249898 Marker Henry Marker, b. 1848 Honiton, Devon d 1926 NZ. - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 13 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

6.b. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS2813 - Geno 2.0 tested
N115452 Steyn Johannes Jacobus Steyn abt 1855 - STEYN, Douw Gerbrandts (arr c 1669 S/Africa), Netherlands R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 18 36-44 12 12

6.c. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS10694> CTS1195> CTS7141> CTS7354 - Geno 2.0 tested
211617 Walker Thomas Walker (b abt 1781 Lincolnshire, England - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a* 13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12

Rathna
02-02-2014, 06:33 PM
In fact from these series I think that the most recent common ancestor is many thousands of years ago:

8 10 10 8 9 10
8 10 10 8 10 10
8 11 10 8 10 10

11 13 11 11 12 11
11 14 11 11 12 12
11 11 11 11 12 12


6.a. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> - Geno 2.0 tested 258423 Ballard John Ballard c.1300. Eywas Lacy, Herefordshire, England. England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12
278944 Bickford William Ballard, b. 1805 - Bristol, England. (Illig son of Miss Bickford) England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 10 11-14 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 16-16-16-17 10 11 19-23 16 15 18 15 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 9 10 12 21-23 14 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 11
142454 Troost Jacob Jobse 1551/1626 Ouddorp Netherland. Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-12 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 38-41 12 12
16296 Foster James Foster b. 1826 Madison Co Ky. England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 29 16 9-9 11 11 25 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 11 19-23 15 15 17
17 37-38 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-24 18 10 12 12 14 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 14 11 11 12 12 36 15 9 15 12 27 26 19 12 12 14 12 11 9 12 12 10 11 11 30 12 14 24 13 10 10 24 15 19 12 24 17 12 15 24 12 23 18 10 14 15 9 12 11
226232 Carnley Lewis Carnley, 1770-1843. - Baden-Württemberg. Germany R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 12-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 29 14-15-17-17 11 11 19-23 17 15 18 18 36-37 12 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 12 23-23 16 10 12 12 16 8 13 24 21 13 12 11 11 11 11 12 12
248663 Crew John Crew b.1690, Ayot St Peter,Hertfordshire England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 13 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 17 30 15-15-17-17 10 11 19-23 15 15 17 16 36-37 13 12 11 9 15-16 8 10 10 8 10 10 14 23-23 17 10 12 12 16 8 12 22 20 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12
N112805 Rinck Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 12 14 28
249898 Marker Henry Marker, b. 1848 Honiton, Devon d 1926 NZ. - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 15 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 14 30 17 9-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 14-15-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 15 19 17 36-37 13 13 11 9 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 10 12 23-25 16 10 12 12 15 8 12 22 20 12 12 11 13 11 11 12 12

6.b. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS2813 - Geno 2.0 tested
N115452 Steyn Johannes Jacobus Steyn abt 1855 - STEYN, Douw Gerbrandts (arr c 1669 S/Africa), Netherlands R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-14 12 12 12 13 13 29 17 8-10 11 11 25 15 19 31 15-15-16-17 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 18 36-44 12 12

6.c. P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200> CTS10694> CTS1195> CTS7141> CTS7354 - Geno 2.0 tested
211617 Walker Thomas Walker (b abt 1781 Lincolnshire, England - Ordered The Big Y England R1b1a2a1a*
13 24 14 11 11-15 12 12 11 13 13 29 17 9-10 11 11 26 15 19 30 15-15-17-18 11 10 19-23 16 15 17 17 36-37 12 12

ballardgen
02-04-2014, 01:14 PM
In fact from these series I think that the most recent common ancestor is many thousands of years ago:

8 10 10 8 9 10
8 10 10 8 10 10
8 11 10 8 10 10

11 13 11 11 12 11
11 14 11 11 12 12
11 11 11 11 12 12


These samples are from the same group - P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200

So if DF100 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position: 16775613 Ancestral allele: C Derived allele: T
AND S1200/CTS4528 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position:15697457 Ancestral allele: T Derived allele: C

and the above statements are correct?? then CTS4528 and DF100 are separate new subclades of P310/11 ??

and by the above comparisons it would be reasonable to say that CTS4528 could be 4000 to 6000 years old similar to P310/L11 itself?

Rathna
02-04-2014, 01:36 PM
These samples are from the same group - P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200

So if DF100 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position: 16775613 Ancestral allele: C Derived allele: T
AND S1200/CTS4528 - is being defined by - GRCh37 position:15697457 Ancestral allele: T Derived allele: C

and the above statements are correct?? then CTS4528 and DF100 are separate new subclades of P310/11 ??

and by the above comparisons it would be reasonable to say that CTS4528 could be 4000 to 6000 years old similar to P310/L11 itself?

Of course mine is a rough calculation, but we can see that there are 6 mutations in 6 haplotypes, thus 1 mutation to be considered. I assume that 1 mutation in these very slow mutating markers is worth about 4000/6000 years.
Anyway we should ask Anatole Klyosov, who was the first to study these markers.

If we consider all the markers and a Mutation Rate of 0.0022, probably the result should be multiplied for 2.5, as we can see if we compare the haplotypes tested by Full Y (or BigY, to consider about the same of the about 9Mbp used in the paper on the Levites R1a). I did this calculation by comparing my haplotype (R-Z2110*) and that of Silver (R-L584).

Rathna
02-21-2014, 12:07 PM
These samples are from the same group - P310* L11* > CTS4528 or S1200


Hi Ballard/Bellardi, the recent release of 2000 people tested by Chromo2 has a group of S1200/CTS4528:

numbers 569-1944 under R1b-S1194 (only 570 and 1944 are negative for S1200, then probably are another subclade, perhaps DF100, but we don't know). There is also 1 R-L11* as I posted on "R1b phylogeny".
I'll publish next the tree of these samples.

ballardgen
02-21-2014, 12:41 PM
Thank You Rathna :-)

Rathna
02-21-2014, 01:23 PM
CTS10694 (582)
CTS1195 (582)
CTS3849 (577)
CTS7141 (582)
CTS7206 (570, 575, 582)
CTS7364 (582)
CTS8326 (582)
F4036 (582)
P310 (all)
PF3231 (575)
PF4655 (unreliable) (1944)
PF6541/L52 (all)
S11481 (575, 576)
S1159/PF6543/YSC191 (all)
S1187 (571, 574, 579, 581)
S1194 (all)
S1196 (571,574, 577, 579,581, 582)
S1200/CTS4528 (all except 570, 1944)
S12023 (582)
S1211 (571, 574, 579,581)
S1253 (578)
S128 (all)
S14328 (569, 571, 574, 577-582)
S15263 (571, 574, 579, 581)
S16080 (582)
S17624 (575, 576)
S17720 (575, 576)
S17868 (571, 574, 579, 581)
S18067 (575, 576)
S19274 (575, 576)
S19837 (575, 576)
S19935 (575, 576)
S21770 (575, 576)
S22429 (578)
S22763 (580)
S23097 (582)
S23356 (580)
S24014 (571, 574, 579, 581)
S25757 (575, 576)
S3374 (575)
S4628 (577)
S4629 (577)
S4631 (578)
S516 (582)
S6157 (572, 575, 1626) [unreliable]
S6165 (572, 575, 1626) [unreliable]
S6863 (577)
S6868 (577, 582)
S826 (571)
S8520 (582)
S8933 (572, 575, 1626) [unreliable]]
S9254 (582)
S9977 (575, 576)

This is the tree:
R-L11, L52/PF6511, P310, S1194, S128
(all)
under S1200/CTS4528
there are: 569, 571, 572, 573, 574,575, 576, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582, 1626, but not 570, 1944
under S14328
there are, 569, 571, 574, 577, 578, 579, 580, 581, 582 but not 572, 573, 575, 576, 1626
under S1196
there are 571, 574, 577, 579, 581, 582 but not 569, 578, 580
under S1211, S15363, S17868, S24014
there are 571, 574, 579, 581 but not 577 and 582 which are under the SNP S6868.
582 has the most numerous SNPs tested under the separation from 577.

Under S6868 there are 577 and 582.
577: CTS3849, S4628, S4629, S6863
582: CTS10694, CTS1195, CTS7141, CTS7364, CTS8326, F4036, S12023, S16080, S23097, S516, S8520, S9254

Under S11481, SS17624, S17720, S18067, S19274, S19837, S19935, S21770, S25757, S9977 there are 575 and 576
575: P3231, S3374

ballardgen
02-21-2014, 03:54 PM
Tathna, Thanks Again - any info on the DF100, S1203's ??

Rathna
02-21-2014, 04:27 PM
Rathna, Thanks Again - any info on the DF100, S1203's ??

Ballard, do you know that DF100 is S1203? Chromo2 tests S1203, but no one is positive, then all these L11 are DF100-.
We have at least three groups:
583 is L11*, S1194- and has these SNPs: S12025, S15526, S16185, S19882, S25007, S8507.

All these people is under S1200/CTS4528, thus you are DF100-.

The other two samples (570 and 1944) are under S1194 but not S1200/CTS4528 and are DF100-.

ballardgen
02-21-2014, 04:37 PM
Rathna as all ways a great help - That is what our study and samples have shown thank you..........................

ballardgen
04-01-2014, 05:01 PM
The latest News with Big Y tests coming in DF100 must be a subclade of CTS4528 see my project page for results

http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a/disc?raw=1

Adrian Ballard
Project Manager & Admin L11*/P310* Project
http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/r1b1a2a1a
https://www.facebook.com/groups/R1b1a2a1a1/
https://www.facebook.com/SBMHL11

lgmayka
04-01-2014, 08:21 PM
Do we know yet whether the pattern of

DYS442 = 10
DYS438 = 13

is DF100+ or not?

ballardgen
04-03-2014, 04:25 PM
Do we know yet whether the pattern of

DYS442 = 10
DYS438 = 13

is DF100+ or not?

Small number of sample at present but averages would suggested Negative http://www.worldfamilies.net/surname...a1a/disc?raw=1