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View Full Version : L21 hotspots that aren't British Isles or Bretagne



Mikewww
08-15-2013, 08:55 PM
Richard Rocca pointed out on another thread some of the Southern European hotspots for L21.

10.3% __ Bologna, Emilia-Romagna, Italy (Boattini 2013)
19.4% __ Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
11.1% __ Marseilles, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
08.2% __ Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Myres 2010)

I wouldn't call this a hotspot, but L21 even shows up in the Mediterranean on the Island of Sardinia.

There are L21 folks mixed in with some of the Pyrenees populations so I'll bet there is a location or two with decent numbers there somewhere. There are a couple of spots on the Scandinavian Peninsula that might qualify too.

Mikewww
08-15-2013, 09:12 PM
The Old Norway Project probably has the best survey of regions in Scandinavia. Here were the high spots for L21. I did some "eye" calculations of pie charts to estimate these from the project slide.

10.0%~ _ Skaraborg, Sweden (Old Norway Project 2011)
09.0%~ _ inland Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)
11.0%~ _ unassigned Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)
05.0%~ _ coastal Norway (Old Norway Project 2011)

rms2
08-15-2013, 09:39 PM
I think L21 may have first arisen in France or possibly western Germany, and it's hard not to attribute those French and Italian results to Celtic Gauls, who also would have had strong U152 and DF27 components.

But Scandinavia is problematic. There were Beaker settlements in SW Norway, but every time the subject of L21 in Scandinavia comes up, the age-old "British thrall" argument rears its ugly head. Even Maciamo Hay of Eupedia endorses it, at least in part. Honestly, I have mixed feelings on the issue myself.



The stronger presence of L21 in Norway and Iceland can be attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway.

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21

ilmari
08-15-2013, 10:09 PM
My mom's direct paternal lineage is back to 1700 western Finland with likely eastern Finland border roots. He has another L21+ match at 65/67 and we can't find the common ancestor yet, but both have the same two locations with the eastern location as only a clue at the moment.

Mikewww
08-15-2013, 10:31 PM
... There were Beaker settlements in SW Norway, but every time the subject of L21 in Scandinavia comes up, the age-old "British thrall" ... Even Maciamo Hay of Eupedia endorses it...

Maciamo Hay wrote,
"attributed to the Norwegian Vikings, who had colonised parts of Scotland and Ireland and taken slaves among the native Celtic populations, whom they brought to their new colony of Iceland and back to Norway."

There probably was some redistribution of people from the Isles as result of the Viking trade, but these L21 percentages are quite high for low class males, not culturally and climatically adapted to a Scandinavia environment.

The available genetic evidence shows the ratio of L21xM222 to M222 is several times higher in Scandinavia than in the northern parts of Ireland and Scotland so you have to rule those areas out and say the Vikings did all there damage in the southern parts of Ireland or Wales.

If P312* brothers to L21 could have made it to Scandinavia in the Chalcocolithic or Bronze Ages, it's hard to understand why L21 guys would not have. Bell Beakers folks certainly did. If L21 did reach Scandinavia then, they would have had a big head start (i.e. 1000-2000 years) to go with a more elite status.

Besides, my understanding was women were more often involved in this trade and the bulk of the trade was with buyers who had something of value to exchange. In other words, the continent was a more likely target area than Scandinavia.

There were also other historic period migrations besides thralls. There were craftsmen and merchants. The Scottish Barony web site says,
"During the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries there was significant emigration from Scotland to Norway, Sweden and Denmark. Some of this was by economic migrants, mainly by merchants and craftsmen, in search of career opportunities, however the majority of Scots arrived in Scandinavia as soldiers of fortune seeking employment in the armies of Sweden and Denmark-Norway under leaders especially Gustavus Adolphus. The majority of migrants originated along the east coast of Scotland and the Northern Isles." http://baronytitles.com/index.php?mact=News,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt01articleid=22&cntnt01returnid=19

It would be interesting to see a granular breakdown of Y DNA in Iceland. Has anyone seen such a thing?

Mikewww
08-15-2013, 10:42 PM
My mom's direct paternal lineage is back to 1700 western Finland with likely eastern Finland border roots. He has another L21+ match at 65/67 and we can't find the common ancestor yet, but both have the same two locations with the eastern location as only a clue at the moment.
What's his kit #? I've found a guy in Finland who looks like a match for my cluster - 128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari)

R.Rocca
08-15-2013, 11:32 PM
Richard Rocca pointed out on another thread some of the Southern European hotspots for L21.

10.3% __ Bologna, Emilia-Romagna, Italy (Boattini 2013)
19.4% __ Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
11.1% __ Marseilles, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
08.2% __ Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Myres 2010)

I wouldn't call this a hotspot, but L21 even shows up in the Mediterranean on the Island of Sardinia.

There are L21 folks mixed in with some of the Pyrenees populations so I'll bet there is a location or two with decent numbers there somewhere. There are a couple of spots on the Scandinavian Peninsula that might qualify too.

Likely more so than anywhere else outside of the Isles or Bretagne...

Ramos-Luis (2012):
27.3% __ Baztan France
22.8% __ Gipuzkoa-SW, Spain
21.6% __ Araba, Spain
20.8% __ Roncal, Spain
19.1% __ Gipuzkoa, Spain
15.0% __ Nafarroa-CW, Spain
14.3% __ Bearn, France
13.6% __ Nafarroa, France
12.3% __ Bizkaia, Spain
11.1% __ La Rioja, Spain
10.5% __ Bizkaia-W, Spain
10.3% __ Chalosse, France
09.8% __ Nafarroa-NW, Spain
06.8% __ Bigorre, France
05.7% __ Zuberoa, France

GoldenHind
08-16-2013, 12:10 AM
Maciamo seems to have modified his views, at least to a certain extent. Within the past few days he wrote the following on the Eupedia forum:

"P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 can be attributed to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades."

I'm glad he is finally coming to terms with the idea that P312 is not exclusively Celtic, though the evidence has been there for years for anyone with an open mind. I used to get a chuckle out of his Eupedia R1b chart which listed L238 as the Celtic-Nordic branch of R1b. I don't know if he's changed it.

The idea that the substantial amount of L21 in Scandinavia must have been brought in as Viking slaves shows little understanding of how the Vikings utilized slaves, and is based on the completely different model of African slaves in America. In my opinion this belief has been largely endorsed by Celtic purists who refuse to acknowedge a Germanic elelment among L21, and U106 purists who refuse to acknowledge any type of R1b-P312 as Germanic.

ilmari
08-16-2013, 02:01 AM
What's his kit #? I've found a guy in Finland who looks like a match for my cluster - 128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari)

They are WAMH.

My mother's paternal kit number is 130937 and 65/67 match is 153101.

I find it odd why they are in different segments of the R-L21+ project, so could anyone please explain what is needed from one of the kits or the other?

My family kit is under: A. L21+ (If you can, test for DF13 status)

The other kit is under: C. DF13+ (L21>DF13; check for the DF13+ SNPs below)

So, can I assume that I should do the DF13 test for 130937? Is it called that in the advanced SNPs? Sorry for being ignorant.

Any others I should order at the same time? I think I recall asking something like this and then life got crazy on me.

AJL
08-16-2013, 03:31 AM
Not a hotspot either, and not meaning to distract, but one of the more baffling pockets of L21 is the "Baltic Jewish L21" group:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

(On Ysearch, users T8A6N, D6T5T, 534VG, B2BNR, BV6P8, 9HPG7, 9NR3T).

This is of some interest to me both because some of these men claim Ashkenazi Levite ancestry, and also because I am related to at least one of these men autosomally. I imagine this group most likely arose in Germany, Italy, France or Spain but since none of these lines can be reliably traced before 1800, who knows?

evon
08-16-2013, 06:15 AM
There have been multiple waves of settlement from various locations that could account for L21+ in Norway, many post-middle ages (Scottish/English, Dutch and German) immigrant groups hailed from L21+ locations..

Here is a simple overview with maps and everything, can be translated using google:

http://195.159.218.27/nyenordmenn/nettustillinger/NF_ML/2/img/euro_blank.gif

http://195.159.218.27/nyenordmenn/nettustillinger/NF_ML/2/index.htm

dartraighe
08-16-2013, 07:32 AM
Maciamo seems to have modified his views, at least to a certain extent. Within the past few days he wrote the following on the Eupedia forum:

"P312 and its subclades make up 55% of all Scandinavian R1b, enough to break the stereotype that U106 is the only Germanic branch of R1b. Naturally a lot of L21 can be attributed to Irish and Scottish slaves brought by the Vikings, but that cannot explain all subclades."


I'm glad he is finally coming to terms with the idea that P312 is not exclusively Celtic, though the evidence has been there for years for anyone with an open mind. I used to get a chuckle out of his Eupedia R1b chart which listed L238 as the Celtic-Nordic branch of R1b. I don't know if he's changed it.

The idea that the substantial amount of L21 in Scandinavia must have been brought in as Viking slaves shows little understanding of how the Vikings utilized slaves, and is based on the completely different model of African slaves in America. In my opinion this belief has been largely endorsed by Celtic purists who refuse to acknowedge a Germanic elelment among L21, and U106 purists who refuse to acknowledge any type of R1b-P312 as Germanic.

There are also the U106 Germanic purists who wont accept any Celts in their group even thought the founder was around 6000 years ago.

rms2
08-16-2013, 11:29 AM
There are also the U106 Germanic purists who wont accept any Celts in their group even thought the founder was around 6000 years ago.

You've beat that same old drum enough. This thread is about L21.

R.Rocca
08-16-2013, 11:33 AM
Let's not understate the importance of more recent migrations either. As per Larmuseau et al (2013), genealogical versus present data showed L21 frequency doubling in the western part of Flanders in the last 400 years or so.

rms2
08-16-2013, 11:41 AM
Let's not understate the importance of more recent migrations either. As per Larmuseau et al (2013), genealogical versus present data showed L21 frequency doubling in the western part of Flanders in the last 400 years or so.

Good point. I understand Scandinavia suffered heavily during the plague and then experienced an influx of foreigners from Germany and elsewhere afterwards. Hard to sort all that out and know what to attribute to which period.

rms2
08-16-2013, 11:44 AM
Likely more so than anywhere else outside of the Isles or Bretagne...

Ramos-Luis (2012):
27.3% __ Baztan France
22.8% __ Gipuzkoa-SW, Spain
21.6% __ Araba, Spain
20.8% __ Roncal, Spain
19.1% __ Gipuzkoa, Spain
15.0% __ Nafarroa-CW, Spain
14.3% __ Bearn, France
13.6% __ Nafarroa, France
12.3% __ Bizkaia, Spain
11.1% __ La Rioja, Spain
10.5% __ Bizkaia-W, Spain
10.3% __ Chalosse, France
09.8% __ Nafarroa-NW, Spain
06.8% __ Bigorre, France
05.7% __ Zuberoa, France

It seems to me not enough attention has been paid to those startling figures. I wish we could get some downstream SNP results for them.

greystones22
08-16-2013, 01:58 PM
Rich
Really fascinating
Those French/Iberian frequencies are close to the levels in England. I would be interested to see them mapped together with the Busby and Myres L21 datasets, to get an impression of the broad L21 Atlantic distribution?? This could help a little with interpretation, and possibly with rationalising new variants discovered below L21, and investigating the relative frequencies of DF13,DF63 in Iberia.
Andy


Likely more so than anywhere else outside of the Isles or Bretagne...

Ramos-Luis (2012):
27.3% __ Baztan France
22.8% __ Gipuzkoa-SW, Spain
21.6% __ Araba, Spain
20.8% __ Roncal, Spain
19.1% __ Gipuzkoa, Spain
15.0% __ Nafarroa-CW, Spain
14.3% __ Bearn, France
13.6% __ Nafarroa, France
12.3% __ Bizkaia, Spain
11.1% __ La Rioja, Spain
10.5% __ Bizkaia-W, Spain
10.3% __ Chalosse, France
09.8% __ Nafarroa-NW, Spain
06.8% __ Bigorre, France
05.7% __ Zuberoa, France

Mikewww
08-16-2013, 02:05 PM
It seems to me not enough attention has been paid to those startling figures. I wish we could get some downstream SNP results for them.

Agreed. I think that frequency cline maps tend to smooth things out, which makes sense, but then you might miss the tree in the forest. Some trees are very important.

Outside of high frequency zones, understanding sub-region geographic or ethnic hotspots can be very helpful.

For L21, this really points out the need to have a much better survey of France.

... wait a minute. I didn't even know there was a Ramos-Luis article in 2012! I only was aware of the 2009 "French Phylogeography of French male lineages" article which did not test for L21 (although it did for M222).

Richard R, did they have a 2012 update? If so, can you point us to the supplementary data?

greystones22
08-16-2013, 02:12 PM
Its actually form this paper, Ramos-Luis is an author, but not the first-named.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/29/9/2211.long
The supplement you need is the .xls file. Most informative.


Agreed. I think that frequency cline maps tend to smooth things out, which makes sense, but then you might miss the tree in the forest. Some trees are very important.

Outside of high frequency zones, understand sub-region geographic or ethnic hotspots can be very helpful.

For L21, this really points out the need to have a much better survey of France.

... wait a minute. I didn't even know there was a Ramos-Luis article in 2012! I only was aware of the 2009 "French Phylogeography of French male lineages" article which did not test for L21 (although it did for M222).

Richard R, did they have a 2012 update? If so, can you point us to the supplementary data?

AJL
08-16-2013, 02:23 PM
Good point. I understand Scandinavia suffered heavily during the plague and then experienced an influx of foreigners from Germany and elsewhere afterwards. Hard to sort all that out and know what to attribute to which period.

Yes, the Swedish Empire had extensive links to Scotland (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/jmh/summary/v068/68.4furgol.html) as well.

greystones22
08-16-2013, 02:24 PM
The Ramos Luis 2012 paper is a very localised study, but the data is nicely laid out by linguistic affiliation, so I quickly calculated the average frequency of L21 by language group:

L21 Frequency by Linguistic affiliation
Basque: 16.5%
French: 10.8%
Spanish: 6.5%

Mikewww
08-16-2013, 02:37 PM
The Ramos Luis 2012 paper is a very localised study, but the data is nicely laid out by linguistic affiliation, so I quickly calculated the average frequency of L21 by language group:

L21 Frequency by Linguistic affiliation
Basque: 16.5%
French: 10.8%
Spanish: 6.5%

Shoot, I was hoping for a survey with a broader coverage of locations in France rather than the "Evidence of Pre-Roman Tribal Genetic Structure in Basques from Uniparentally Inherited Markers" focus. The Basques get all of the attention. Still, it is good to have.

I suspect there are other hotspot localities in France that we don't know about and possibly in Germany and Switzerland as well.

As far as L21+ DF13-

.. This could help a little with interpretation, and possibly with rationalising new variants discovered below L21, and investigating the relative frequencies of DF13,DF63 in Iberia.
Our Iberian deep testing is so weak I wouldn't make too much of it.
So far the main L21 subclades seem to be Z253 and the infamous 9919-A (459=9,9 YCAII=19,19) subgroups which seem to be DF13+.

The L21+ DF13- DF63- guys to date are mostly Britain-ish or French with surnames like:
Blancett, Davis, Hale, Leblanc, Lyles, Maddox, Meadows, Wildes, Wilson

greystones22
08-16-2013, 02:50 PM
So I haven't digested the paper fully, but one take on the Basque L21 data would be that their longstanding linguistic and cultural barriers have maintained high levels of L21, that were either high in the founding population, or drifted to a high frequency over time by virtue of their isolation. On the other hand Spanish and French speaking populations will have seen immigration and movement??

I guess I'm seeing parallels to the reasons that L21 is high in Ireland, Wales and Brittany compared with England and France.




Shoot, I was hoping for a survey with a broader coverage of locations in France rather than the "Evidence of Pre-Roman Tribal Genetic Structure in Basques from Uniparentally Inherited Markers" focus. The Basques get all of the attention. Still, it is good to have.

I suspect there are other hotspot localities in France that we don't know about and possibly in Germany and Switzerland as well.

jdean
08-16-2013, 03:27 PM
Anybody else surprised at how low U152 is ?

[[[ Mikewww/moderator on 08/16/2013: I setup a new thread in the U152 section to follow-up on that, but I do think the patterns of L21 vis a vis U152 could be meaningful. http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1226-U152-in-Iberia-and-the-Pyrenees-region&p=11610#post11610 ]]]

evon
08-16-2013, 04:26 PM
Yes, the Swedish Empire had extensive links to Scotland (http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/jmh/summary/v068/68.4furgol.html) as well.

After the great Northern war in the early 1700's wrecked havoc on the small Carolan army of the Swedish empire, many mercenaries came in to fill the ranks, this included many Germans and likely also Scots. There is also a link between Scandinavian Romani and the Swedish king Charles XII's recruitment of mercenaries during this return from Ottoman territory, this sort of phenomena would have been wide spread during the hostile late middle ages and onwards due to a need for armed personnel on a short notice..

GoldenHind
08-16-2013, 05:14 PM
The L21+ DF13- DF63- guys to date are mostly Britain-ish or French with surnames like:
Blancett, Davis, Hale, Leblanc, Lyles, Maddox, Meadows, Wildes, Wilson

Davis is one of the most common surnames in Wales. Maddox and its many variants is also Welsh, from the Old Welsh personal name Matoc.

AJL
08-16-2013, 05:15 PM
After the great Northern war in the early 1700's wrecked havoc on the small Carolan army of the Swedish empire, many mercenaries came in to fill the ranks, this included many Germans and likely also Scots. There is also a link between Scandinavian Romani and the Swedish king Charles XII's recruitment of mercenaries during this return from Ottoman territory, this sort of phenomena would have been wide spread during the hostile late middle ages and onwards due to a need for armed personnel on a short notice..

Some Romani might also have come to Scandinavia from Scotland as soldiers

http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/borders.html

though I expect this would not account for L21 since I don't believe there are any known Roma I lines that are L21?

jdean
08-16-2013, 05:23 PM
Davis is one of the most common surnames in Wales. Maddox and its many variants is also Welsh, from the Old Welsh personal name Matoc.

I think Davis is the second, after Jones of course : )

I've 4 separate Davis lines in the last 6 generations on my mothers side.

rms2
08-16-2013, 11:14 PM
Mattox has a family tradition of French ancestry and an anglicization of the surname from Matteaux (or something like that) to Mattox.

There is no DF13- DF63- Davis in the R-L21 Plus Project. I hadn't heard of that one. I couldn't even find a DF13- Davis in the R-L21 Plus Project. But I couldn't find a DF13- Hale or Wilson, either, so apparently those three just aren't in the project.

Mikewww
08-17-2013, 01:23 AM
Mattox has a family tradition of French ancestry and an anglicization of the surname from Matteaux (or something like that) to Mattox.

There is no DF13- DF63- Davis in the R-L21 Plus Project. I hadn't heard of that one. I couldn't even find a DF13- Davis in the R-L21 Plus Project. But I couldn't find a DF13- Hale or Wilson, either, so apparently those three just aren't in the project.
I found out I messed up the DF63 portion of my R1b-L21 spreadsheet yesterday. They are in the last couple of columns that I knocked off the edge. I didn't think I messed up the DF13- guys right next to them, but there is a chance I did so let me recheck and reload that data.

Mikewww
08-17-2013, 03:44 AM
Okay, I did copy/paste the wrong names. Here is the true L21* group, although LeBlanc needs to test for DF63. He's one of the most unique with no one around I can match with.

f37201 Berry England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
f167223 LeBlanc France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne
f26883 Tupper England, South East, West Sussex, Bury
f290662 Wildes Unknown
fN49494 zzzUnk(Wildes) zzzUnkOrigin
f8814 Blancett zzzUnkOrigin
f236395 Bishop England
fN80403 Bishop England, London
f94428 Meadows England
f25304 Maddox France

The following are people who fit in clusters with the above. The Hale, Lyles and Wilson are pretty good bets for the "1313" variety. There is a Davis group that I think are L21* as they match with the Maddox group, but they are a little more of a stretch. None of the Davis folks have SNP tested but they have an unusual STR signature of 385=13,14 426=11 439<=11 458>=17 576<-17 557<-17 (464=14,14,15,17) in common with Maddox. It's pretty hard not to notice especially with the 426=11 and the hit on DYS464.


f37201 Berry X13- uas England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
f167223 LeBlanc X13- uas France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne
f26883 Tupper X13- uas England, South East, West Sussex, Bury
f290662 Wildes X13- uas Unknown
fN49494 zzzUnk(Wildes) X13- uas zzzUnkOrigin
f12733 Blancett X13-1011 UK
f41108 Blancett X13-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f8814 Blancett X13-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f37707 Blanchet X13-1011 zzzUnkOrigin
f29568 Blanchett X13-1011 Ireland
f236395 Bishop X13-1313 England
fN80403 Bishop X13-1313 England, London
f23955 Hale X13-1313 England
f280782 Hale X13-1313 England
f210615 Lyles X13-1313 zzzUnkOrigin
f94428 Meadows X13-1313 England
f224598 Meadows X13-1313 zzzUnkOrigin
f176877 Wilson X13-1313 zzzUnkOrigin
f44113 zzzUnk(Hale) X13-1313 zzzUnkOrigin
f44114 zzzUnk(Hale) X13-1313 zzzUnkOrigin
f117433 Davis X13-131411 UK
f178565 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
fN82291 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
f36001 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
f15580 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
f52253 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
f47238 Davis X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin
f25304 Maddox X13-131411 France
f226438 Maddox X13-131411 zzzUnkOrigin

GoldenHind
08-17-2013, 05:21 AM
There have been multiple waves of settlement from various locations that could account for L21+ in Norway, many post-middle ages (Scottish/English, Dutch and German) immigrant groups hailed from L21+ locations..



I don't doubt that events within the historic era, including the Viking period, could have increased the amount of L21 in Scandinavia. However I doubt very much that explains all of it. Such events aren't likely to account for the substantial presence of other P312 subclades in Scandinavia. It is hard to dismiss the data from the Old Norway Project which shows P312* (composed of DF27XSRY2627, L238 and P312**) outnumbering U106 in coastal Norway as the result of immigration in the historic period. If other P312 subclades reached Scandinavia before the Roman period, L21 may have as well.

it would be interesting to investigate the composition of L21 subclades in Scandinavia to see if they are different from those in areas such as Ireland and Scotland.

evon
08-17-2013, 09:36 AM
Some Romani might also have come to Scandinavia from Scotland as soldiers

http://www.scottishgypsies.co.uk/borders.html

though I expect this would not account for L21 since I don't believe there are any known Roma I lines that are L21?

Here are some results from the Scandinavian Romani project:
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/romanimanuch/default.aspx?section=ycolorized

From what ive seen with regards to Romani cousins on FTDNA and 23andme it seems that L21+ will likely be found within this population also, but if this particular group of people are part of the wave of bringing L21+ to Scandinavia (or increasing the results), they would be a very minor contributor, the much more common Scottish and German immigration is likely a much bigger contributor.

evon
08-17-2013, 09:40 AM
I don't doubt that events within the historic era, including the Viking period, could have increased the amount of L21 in Scandinavia. However I doubt very much that explains all of it. Such events aren't likely to account for the substantial presence of other P312 subclades in Scandinavia. It is hard to dismiss the data from the Old Norway Project which shows P312* (composed of DF27XSRY2627, L238 and P312**) outnumbering U106 in coastal Norway as the result of immigration in the historic period. If other P312 subclades reached Scandinavia before the Roman period, L21 may have as well.

it would be interesting to investigate the composition of L21 subclades in Scandinavia to see if they are different from those in areas such as Ireland and Scotland.

Its actually quite erroneous to say Norway with regards to DNA, since the country is divided into 3 major zones of regional DNA distribution with a clear divide in both autosomal and genepool results, the major regions are Western Norway, Eastern Norway and Northern Norway, which all have very different DNA components, with the Western region having strong links to Germany, UK/Ireland, Holland ect, and the Eastern region having strong links to Sweden, Denmark, Finland, and the Northern region having strong links to Finland, UK/Ireland...

rms2
08-17-2013, 11:21 AM
One thing almost no one mentions when discussing the whole "British thrall" idea with regards to Scandinavia is that L21 isn't the only y haplogroup in those areas of England from which the Vikings, especially Danish Vikings, took slaves. In fact, it was eastern England that was dominated by the Danes, and eastern England has the lowest frequency of L21 in the Isles. U106 is more common there. So, if we accept the idea that the Vikings hauled a lot of British slaves back home to Scandinavia, we have to infer that many if not most of them would have been U106. And remember, much of what we now consider as Sweden, i.e., the more populous South, was part of Denmark during the Viking Period.

625

rms2
08-17-2013, 11:46 AM
With regard to P312 (including L21) in Scandinavia, I think we can be pretty sure that L238 is solidly old Scandinavian, and probably of Scandinavian origin, since it is closely connected to Ken Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster and is overwhelmingly Scandinavian and found only sparingly in the Isles.

About the rest, I don't think we can be so sure. That's not to say they aren't ancient in Scandinavia - they might be - but the jury is out.

When I had the R-L21 Plus Project organized in geographic categories, it was easier to check our Scandinavians, but, working from memory, I know we have a few who belong to the Scots Modal Cluster. There is at least one Norwegian who is DF63+ who has a paper trail to a Scottish seafarer. We have a man of Swedish ancestry who is DF41+ but whose closest match (60/67), a Burns, is a Scot. I know of at least one L159.2+ Scandinavian, but, given the distribution of L159.2, it seems likely that one is of British Isles provenance, as well. I believe there are others who are likely to be of British Isles ancestry, too. When I get the chance, I'll make a more thorough search.

I think it also likely that what little U152 there is in Scandinavia is of more recent origin than the Viking Period and may have come from Germany.

I'm not sure about the rest of P312 in Scandinavia. It's not something I've looked into.

rms2
08-17-2013, 12:46 PM
Here are the relevant figures from Busby et al for Scandinavia (rounded to the nearest tenth of a percent):

Norway

N = 138

P312xL21,U152 = 11%

L21xM222 = 7%

M222 = 1%

U152 = 4%

Total P312 = 23%

U106 = 20%

Denmark North

N = 42

P312xL21,U152 = 7

L21xM222 = 10

M222 = 0

U152 = 5

Total P312 = 22

U106 = 24

Denmark Southeast

N = 49

P312xL21,U152 = 4

L21xM222 = 4

M222 = 0

U152 = 2

Total P312 = 10

U106 = 12

Denmark West

N = 19

P312xL21,U152 = 5

L21xM222 = 5

M222 = 0

U152 = 0

Total P312 = 10

U106 = 21

Sweden South

N = 139

P312xL21,U152 = 2

L21 = 6

M222 = 1

U152 = 2

Total P312 = 11

U106 = 4

Sweden Saami

N = 35

Total P312 = 0

U106 = 6

We can talk about these figures, but I think the Saami figure could indicate that U106 has been in Scandinavia longer than P312 has, or least got farther north.

On L21 in Norway, we see that of the 8% figure, 1/8 is M222 and so likely to be of Isles origin. In my opinion, given what I know of the Scandinavians in the R-L21 Plus Project, the remaining 7% could be largely, but maybe not entirely, of Isles origin, as well. That is difficult for me to admit, and probably won't be popular. Anyway, I would bet at least half of it is. I also seriously doubt that the U152 there is ancient either.

Of the P312xL21,U152 in Norway, some of it is L238 and so undoubtedly native. Of the rest, I'm not sure. Some may be native, and some may be of more recent provenance.

About Denmark, I'm not sure. In Sweden, there is some L238, but I have my doubts about the rest of P312 there. Maybe a better sampling would be more revealing. Sweden had the lowest overall frequency of M269, about 21%, of the Scandinavian samples in Busby.

rms2
08-17-2013, 12:57 PM
Interestingly, Busby et al only tested six Basques, but two of them were U106+ and one was U152+. None was L21+.

jdean
08-17-2013, 01:33 PM
Interestingly, Busby et al only tested six Basques, but two of them were U106+ and one was U152+. None was L21+.

Which provides as good an example of the dangers of low sampling as you could get : )_

rms2
08-17-2013, 01:41 PM
Which provides as good an example of the dangers of low sampling as you could get : )_

True. I like those studies that have 500 or more samples. Those seem to be rare due to the cost.

evon
08-17-2013, 01:44 PM
With regard to P312 (including L21) in Scandinavia, I think we can be pretty sure that L238 is solidly old Scandinavian, and probably of Scandinavian origin, since it is closely connected to Ken Nordtvedt's R1b-Norse cluster and is overwhelmingly Scandinavian and found only sparingly in the Isles.

About the rest, I don't think we can be so sure. That's not to say they aren't ancient in Scandinavia - they might be - but the jury is out.

When I had the R-L21 Plus Project organized in geographic categories, it was easier to check our Scandinavians, but, working from memory, I know we have a few who belong to the Scots Modal Cluster. There is at least one Norwegian who is DF63+ who has a paper trail to a Scottish seafarer. We have a man of Swedish ancestry who is DF41+ but whose closest match (60/67), a Burns, is a Scot. I know of at least one L159.2+ Scandinavian, but, given the distribution of L159.2, it seems likely that one is of British Isles provenance, as well. I believe there are others who are likely to be of British Isles ancestry, too. When I get the chance, I'll make a more thorough search.

I think it also likely that what little U152 there is in Scandinavia is of more recent origin than the Viking Period and may have come from Germany.

I'm not sure about the rest of P312 in Scandinavia. It's not something I've looked into.

The high point of immigration to Norway was not during the Viking age, but rather during and epescially after the Norwegian golden age in the late middle ages (1200's) onwards, so slavery wount be the biggest contributor at all, but it might be part of it..I think my own L21+ linage is German in origin..I have not looked at the closest matches i have over at FTDNA, but last i checked it was a fellow Norwegian and a German...Now looking at it i am closest to a Norwegian and a bunch of Irish and English people, plus a German..i am E2711 (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R-L21/default.aspx?vgroup=R-L21&section=ycolorized)



We can talk about these figures, but I think the Saami figure could indicate that U106 has been in Scandinavia longer than P312 has, or least got farther north.


Depends on which Saami group you talk about, as Saami people are not a homogenous group, the two extremes being Northern and Southern Saami, whom speak different languages and live far apart from eachother. The northern Saami live in a region that have seen massive immigration from especially Scotland during the 1500's and onwards, giving rise to some famous Norwegians such as Peter Dass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petter_Dass). The Danish king was quite happy about this immigration due to giving an increase in tax revenue in a sparely populated region.

Dubhthach
08-17-2013, 01:51 PM
I think the key to this will be a proper breakdown of L21 subclades in Scandinavia. L21 by itself is way too old. At least if we had an idea of distribution of the "Big 8"/"Big 9" clades under DF13 it would provide an extra data-point.

-Paul
(DF41+)

jdean
08-17-2013, 02:37 PM
True. I like those studies that have 500 or more samples. Those seem to be rare due to the cost.

I don't know, I think I could put up with a few more studies like this that focus on a small area, Alpes de Haute Provence next please : )

I wounder how long we'll have to wait for them to start testing for DF SNPs ?

seferhabahir
08-17-2013, 04:52 PM
Not a hotspot either, and not meaning to distract, but one of the more baffling pockets of L21 is the "Baltic Jewish L21" group:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/JewishR1b/default.aspx?section=yresults

(On Ysearch, users T8A6N, D6T5T, 534VG, B2BNR, BV6P8, 9HPG7, 9NR3T).

This is of some interest to me both because some of these men claim Ashkenazi Levite ancestry, and also because I am related to at least one of these men autosomally. I imagine this group most likely arose in Germany, Italy, France or Spain but since none of these lines can be reliably traced before 1800, who knows?

I'll try not to distract as well, but at last count I have 35 exact 12 marker matches (plus 3 other 1 GD matches but with tell-tale DYS388=11, DYS392=14 values). There are two people in the queue for L583 test results (this is the SNP I suggested is indicative of L21 Ashkenazi Levite ancestry). If they both come back positive, that would make six with this SNP. One of is far enough off at 67 markers to qualify L583 for the ISOGG tree. These two are not aware of a Levite heritage, meaning L583 and the "Baltic Jewish L21" group may be older than previously believed.

Origins could be almost anywhere. I said before on DNA Forums that it would be interesting if the origins of this group were in the Provence area (presumed birthplace of my screen-name book, Sefer haBahir). Scholar Ronit Meroz argues there is a Babylonian stratum in the Bahir dating back to the 10th century, a time when there was probable migration from Babylonia into Narbonne. I'm still holding out for a non-Celtic origin of this cluster. Time will tell, and we'll see how many new SNPs the L555 and the L583 guys share (or don't) under Z251 when Full Genome results come back.

Tolan
08-17-2013, 05:27 PM
P312, L21 and U152 are very old, dating from the same period and are from the same region (as L21 and U152 are the son or grand-son of P312).
P312 and his son participated greatly to populate Europe

It is normal to find today, these three haplogroups present in the same areas, without resorting to more recent migrations, which are: Celtic, Roman, Germanic or Viking.
All these tribe had these three haplogroups (and others).
Who knows, L21 may already represented 10% of the original inhabitants of Scandinavia?

GoldenHind
08-17-2013, 06:27 PM
I think the key to this will be a proper breakdown of L21 subclades in Scandinavia. L21 by itself is way too old. At least if we had an idea of distribution of the "Big 8"/"Big 9" clades under DF13 it would provide an extra data-point.

-Paul
(DF41+)

My point exactly (though I have no idea what the big 8/9 are).

GoldenHind
08-17-2013, 06:38 PM
True. I like those studies that have 500 or more samples. Those seem to be rare due to the cost.

This is why I prefer the Old Norway Project to Myres. Mike and I both referred to it above. It has a sample of 604, though it includes three provinces in the south of Sweden and northern Jutland in Denmark. The breakdown is: Norway 375; Sweden 123; Denmark 106.

The Norwegian coastal samples are from Trondheim, Bergen, Stavanger, More (Tingvoll) and Sognefjord.

The Norwegian inland samples are from Namdalen, Gudbrandsdalen and Hedemark.

Dubhthach
08-17-2013, 07:57 PM
My point exactly (though I have no idea what the big 8/9 are).

So 90% of L21 is DF13+, Under DF13 you have the following major clades:

DF49
L513/DF1
Z253
Z255
DF21
DF41
CTS4466
L1335
Z251


Mike has a great diagram here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/17907527/R1b-L21_Descendency_Tree.jpg

rms2
08-18-2013, 11:31 AM
It's kind of a funny coincidence (re this thread, that is), but a Norwegian (Romstad, kit H1944) got his CTS4466+ ("Irish Type 2") result this morning. There is already a Dane (Stryhn, kit 210257) in that category.

If I get the chance today, and if I feel the motivation to do it, I may hunt down the Scandinavians in the R-L21 Plus Project to get an idea of how things stand at present relative to downstream SNPs.

Honestly, as time has gone on, the more I see of Scandinavian L21, the less Scandinavian I think it is. Just my impression.

Anglecynn
08-18-2013, 12:16 PM
Just as a side note - There was a study fairly recently of some remains in Kent i think, from the Bronze and Iron ages. (I can't remember what it was called nor do i have a link to it at the moment so would appreciate one if somebody knows the one i'm talking about). They found that in the Bronze Age at this site there were a large number of immigrants from the western Mediterranean and a small number from Scandinavia, and in the Iron age a large number from Scandinavia and a small number from the western Mediterranean. Also, from talking to someone very interested in metalworking recently learned that there is a pair of bronze swords that look like they are made by the same person, one found in eastern Britain and the other in Sweden. So i think it's likely that if there was significant trade and low level movement spanning the western Mediterranean to Scandinavia via the British Isles this may play a part in the levels of R1b-L21 in Iberia, France and also in Scandinavia. Of course you can't take one location as being typical for a whole region, but nonetheless it is evidence that there was a lot going on around west and northwest Europe during these periods, and seems a reasonable explanation for at least some of what is being talked about in this thread.

rms2
08-18-2013, 12:35 PM
I remember reading about that. The finds were on the Isle of Thanet, at the extreme southeast tip of what is now England, as I recall. It seems likely that was a trading emporium and probably not representative of the Isles nor indicative of any influx of settlers from either Scandinavia or the Mediterranean.

Jean M
08-18-2013, 02:18 PM
I remember reading about that. The finds were on the Isle of Thanet, at the extreme southeast tip of what is now England, as I recall. It seems likely that was a trading emporium and probably not representative of the Isles nor indicative of any influx of settlers from either Scandinavia or the Mediterranean.

That is correct. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia and five were from South-West Iberia. The location is typical of emporia.

We would expect the numbers of people moving in connection with Bronze Age trade networks to be relatively small. However it is worth thinking about when we find an odd sprinkling of some haplogroup far away from where we usually find it. These trade networks were long-distance and probably used by trading families.

Mikewww
08-18-2013, 08:35 PM
... Honestly, as time has gone on, the more I see of Scandinavian L21, the less Scandinavian I think it is. Just my impression.
I don't see it the same way, but I'm not sure how long one should be in Scandinavia to be defined as "Scandinavian" and this is a game of percentages.... percentages immigrated that survived by the various periods. I'm just saying the details are more complex than summary statements that can express either glasses that are "half empty" or "half full".

I do have the data from our projects. I'm including Finland and Denmark in what I call the "Nordic Countries". I'm not including the Low Countries or the Baltic States.


Below are the L21 confirmed folks, a total of 22, that I can not assign to any STR signature based variety/cluster:

fN94900 Christiansen R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Denmark
f131808 Eriksson(Lappfjärd) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Finland, Ostrobothnia, Suupohja, Lappfjärd
f174552 Gram(Buntje-Ballum) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum
f146374 Hansen(Skurup) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Sweden, Skåne, Scania Co., Skurup
f154859 Martinson R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Sweden
fN85751 Søvik(Gjemnes) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Norway, Møre og Romsdal, Nordmøre, Gjemnes
fE2711 Berge(Strandebarm) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Hordaland, Strandebarm
f216694 Bertelson(Steinkjer) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Innherad, Nord-Trøndelag, Steinkjer
f111060 Emblem R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fE10796 Fjeldtvedt R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN61802 Fuller R1b-P312>L21 Sweden
f181215 Gausel(Hetland) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Rogaland, Stavanger, Hetland
f200859 Gjon R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN55872 Halvorson(Skien) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Østlandet, Telemark, Solum/Skien
fN36461 Heihiller R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN9016 Jensen(Maribo) R1b-P312>L21 Denmark, Region Sjælland, Island of Lolland, Maribo
fN85026 Knudsen(Kragerø) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Sørlandet, Vest-Agder, Kragerø
f208799 Larsen R1b-P312>L21 Denmark
fN81389 Mullica R1b-P312>L21 Finland
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle) R1b-P312>L21 Denmark, Vejie Amt
f193070 Nilsson R1b-P312>L21 Sweden
f161355 Sundberg(Ahlainen) R1b-P312>L21 Finland, Uusimaa, Ahlainen


Below are another 27 folks that fit into STR signatures that potentially could be Scandinavian or Non-Isles of some type. I don't know.

fN5924 Måland(Hjelmeland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2* 21-314-P13-B Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
fN22259 Livschitz(Helsinki) R1b-P312>L21 251-11EE Finland, Uusimaa, Helsinki
f229805 Bøen(Høland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1121 Norway, Østlandet, Co. Akershus, Høland
f278356 Larsson Roman(Örslösa) zzL21suspect 253-1121 Sweden, Västergötland, Örslösa
f6475 Longacre(Göteborg) R1b-P312>L21 253-1121 Sweden, Västergötland län, Göteborg
f215915 Olsen(Lesja) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1716 Norway, Oppland, Lesja
f61742 Frederiksen zzL21suspect 253-1716-11 Denmark, Zealand, Præstø Amt
f148362 Bankston zzL21suspect 253-1716-11F Sweden
f132118 Bankston R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1716-11F Sweden
fN73765 Jakobsen zzL21suspect 253-1716-11F Norway
f194239 Skeie(Bergen) zzL21suspect 253-1716-P Norway, Hordaland, Bergen
f162176 Falch(Ølfernes) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>Z2185* 253-2534-2185- uas Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
f99735 Svensson(Virserum) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF41 41-1410 Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle) R1b-P312>L21 49- uas Denmark, Vejie Amt
f272519 Ersson(Västernorrland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513- uas Sweden
fN61088 Vaele(Voss)U106? zzL21suspect 513- uas Norway, Hordaland Co., Voss
fN67917 Ekholm(Stockholm) zzL21suspect 513-B2-705 Sweden, Södermanland, Stockholm
fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L706.2>L705.2+ 513-B2-705 Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult
f128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari) zzL21suspect 513-B2-705-P Finland, Etela-Suomi, Uusimaa, Tammisaari
f253986 Hautaaho(Kauhava) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z11924 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Seinäjoki sub-region, Kauhava
f176545 Jukonen(Johannes) R1b-P312>L21 z11924 Finland, Johannes
f130937 Brandstrom(Teuva) R1b-P312>L21 z1528 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Suupohja, Teuva
f153101 Mattsson(Koskinen) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z1528 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Seinäjoki, Lapua
fN64514 Holmes(Varmland) zzL21suspect z2528-A Sweden, Varmland
f33413 Andersen(Nordland) R1b-P312>L21 z4871418-N Norway, Nordland
f80884 Johnson(Marskard) R1b-P312>L21 z4871418-N Norway, Marskard
fN76294 Martinsen(Mosjøen) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z4871418-N Norway, Nordland, Vefsn, Mosjøen
f273614 Molsjord(Lenvik) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z4871418-N Norway, Troms Co., Lenvik

Mikewww
08-18-2013, 08:55 PM
... I do have the data from our projects. I'm including Finland and Denmark in what I call the "Nordic Countries". I'm not including the Low Countries or the Baltic States.



In contrast, below are the L21 confirmed folks, a total of 20, that appear to be assigned to traditional (conventional wisdom) British Isles STR signature based variety/clusters:

fN5620 Backstrom(Jämtland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335>L1065* 1335-Sc Sweden, Jämtland län
f97038 Matheson zzL21suspect 1335-Sc Norway
f36081 Rannekleiv(Oestland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L1335 1335-Sc-2424 Norway, Oestland
f220430 Sanda(Hurdal) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21 21-n922-A1 Norway, Østlandet, Co. Akershus, Hurdal
f61096 Hedrickson(Fryksände) R1b-P312>L21 21-n922-A1-B Sweden, Värmland län, Fryksände
fN14161 Olsson(Laksaa) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS Norway, Nordland, Laksaa
fN71495 Romsdal R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS Norway
fN82019 Synnset(Melhus) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS Norway, Sør-Trøndelag, Gauldal, Melhus
f125806 Duoos R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-A Norway
f198811 Jørgensen(Svolvær) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-A Norway, Nordland Co., Svolvær
fN107492 Helset(Romsdal) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-D Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Møre og Romsdal, Romsdal
f231221 Olsen(Norway) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-D Norway
f211524 Ulvestadbakken(Vatne) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-D Norway, Vestlandet, Møre og Romsdal, Vatne
yKCUQZ Øverland R1b-P312>L21 255-1830-IS-G Norway
f210257 Matrois(Nakskov) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>CTS4466+ 4466-T2 Denmark, Region Sjælland, Lolland, Nakskov
fH1944 Romundstad R1b-P312>L21>DF13>CTS4466+ 4466-T2 Norway, Nordmøre, Møre og Romsdal, Rindal
f148856 Forgason R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222- uas Sweden
f124832 Johansen zzL21suspect 49-2329222- uas Norway
f249280 Lysberg(Overhalla) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222- uas Norway, Trøndelag, Nord-Trøndelag Co., Overhalla
fN55657 Skaar(Utsira) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222-1717 Norway, Vestlandet, Co. Rogaland, Utsira

The "1335-Sc" folks are "Scots Modal".

The "21-n922-A1" are "Airghelli I" (DF21).

The "466-T2" are "Irish II".

The "49-23922" are "Irish I/NW Irish" (M222).

The "255-1830-IS" folks are "Irish Sea". It it the most numerous in the list above of the traditional Irish/Scottish types. There are competing theories on where these guys are from as they are a bit scattered. Neil is the L159 (downstream of Z255) project admin. Perhaps he'll add his comments.

The other thing to keep in mind is that our DNA project data is heavily British Isles descendant dominated.

rms2
08-18-2013, 10:15 PM
I don't see it the same way, but I'm not sure how long one should be in Scandinavia to be defined as "Scandinavian" and this is a game of percentages.... percentages immigrated that survived by the various periods. I'm just saying the details are more complex than summary statements that can express either glasses that are "half empty" or "half full".

By "Scandinavian" I mean of ancient provenance there, at least predating the Viking Period.



I do have the data from our projects. I'm including Finland and Denmark in what I call the "Nordic Countries". I'm not including the Low Countries or the Baltic States.

Of course, the Low Countries and the Baltic States are not part of Scandinavia. Some folks do not include Finland because of the language family difference, but I think it's probably a good idea to include it.



Below are the L21 confirmed folks, a total of 22, that I can not assign to any STR signature based variety/cluster:

fN94900 Christiansen R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Denmark
f131808 Eriksson(Lappfjärd) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Finland, Ostrobothnia, Suupohja, Lappfjärd
f174552 Gram(Buntje-Ballum) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Denmark, Sønderjyllands Amt, Tønder, Buntje-Ballum
f146374 Hansen(Skurup) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Sweden, Skåne, Scania Co., Skurup
f154859 Martinson R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Sweden
fN85751 Søvik(Gjemnes) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 Norway, Møre og Romsdal, Nordmøre, Gjemnes
fE2711 Berge(Strandebarm) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Hordaland, Strandebarm
f216694 Bertelson(Steinkjer) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Innherad, Nord-Trøndelag, Steinkjer
f111060 Emblem R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fE10796 Fjeldtvedt R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN61802 Fuller R1b-P312>L21 Sweden
f181215 Gausel(Hetland) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Rogaland, Stavanger, Hetland
f200859 Gjon R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN55872 Halvorson(Skien) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Østlandet, Telemark, Solum/Skien
fN36461 Heihiller R1b-P312>L21 Norway
fN9016 Jensen(Maribo) R1b-P312>L21 Denmark, Region Sjælland, Island of Lolland, Maribo
fN85026 Knudsen(Kragerø) R1b-P312>L21 Norway, Sørlandet, Vest-Agder, Kragerø
f208799 Larsen R1b-P312>L21 Denmark
fN81389 Mullica R1b-P312>L21 Finland
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle) R1b-P312>L21 Denmark, Vejie Amt
f193070 Nilsson R1b-P312>L21 Sweden
f161355 Sundberg(Ahlainen) R1b-P312>L21 Finland, Uusimaa, Ahlainen


I haven't had time to go back and look at those on that list who are in R-L21 Plus Project. I knew there were some who do not yet have any western matches or SNP results downstream of L21 or DF13. They would be prime candidates for ancient Scandinavian origin . . . maybe.



Below are another 27 folks that fit into STR signatures that potentially could be Scandinavian or Non-Isles of some type. I don't know.

fN5924 Måland(Hjelmeland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2* 21-314-P13-B Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland
fN22259 Livschitz(Helsinki) R1b-P312>L21 251-11EE Finland, Uusimaa, Helsinki
f229805 Bøen(Høland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1121 Norway, Østlandet, Co. Akershus, Høland
f278356 Larsson Roman(Örslösa) zzL21suspect 253-1121 Sweden, Västergötland, Örslösa
f6475 Longacre(Göteborg) R1b-P312>L21 253-1121 Sweden, Västergötland län, Göteborg
f215915 Olsen(Lesja) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1716 Norway, Oppland, Lesja
f61742 Frederiksen zzL21suspect 253-1716-11 Denmark, Zealand, Præstø Amt
f148362 Bankston zzL21suspect 253-1716-11F Sweden
f132118 Bankston R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-1716-11F Sweden
fN73765 Jakobsen zzL21suspect 253-1716-11F Norway
f194239 Skeie(Bergen) zzL21suspect 253-1716-P Norway, Hordaland, Bergen
f162176 Falch(Ølfernes) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253>Z2534>Z2185* 253-2534-2185- uas Norway, Hordaland, Ølfernes
f99735 Svensson(Virserum) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF41 41-1410 Sweden, Kalmar län, Virserum
fN29988 Nielson(Vejle) R1b-P312>L21 49- uas Denmark, Vejie Amt
f272519 Ersson(Västernorrland) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513- uas Sweden
fN61088 Vaele(Voss)U106? zzL21suspect 513- uas Norway, Hordaland Co., Voss
fN67917 Ekholm(Stockholm) zzL21suspect 513-B2-705 Sweden, Södermanland, Stockholm
fN29541 Sunesson(Tibbhult) R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L706.2>L705.2+ 513-B2-705 Sweden, Kalmar län, Tibbhult
f128145 Holmberg(Tammisaari) zzL21suspect 513-B2-705-P Finland, Etela-Suomi, Uusimaa, Tammisaari
f253986 Hautaaho(Kauhava) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z11924 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Seinäjoki sub-region, Kauhava
f176545 Jukonen(Johannes) R1b-P312>L21 z11924 Finland, Johannes
f130937 Brandstrom(Teuva) R1b-P312>L21 z1528 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Suupohja, Teuva
f153101 Mattsson(Koskinen) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z1528 Finland, Southern Ostrobothnia, Seinäjoki, Lapua
fN64514 Holmes(Varmland) zzL21suspect z2528-A Sweden, Varmland
f33413 Andersen(Nordland) R1b-P312>L21 z4871418-N Norway, Nordland
f80884 Johnson(Marskard) R1b-P312>L21 z4871418-N Norway, Marskard
fN76294 Martinsen(Mosjøen) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z4871418-N Norway, Nordland, Vefsn, Mosjøen
f273614 Molsjord(Lenvik) R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z4871418-N Norway, Troms Co., Lenvik

I have not had the time yet to go back and look closely at all of these either, but, honestly, I have my doubts about those who belong to subclades common to the Isles. The first one on the list, kit N5924, for example, is P314.2+. I realize the Isles skew in the database could be warping our view of it, but it does cast any Scandinavian P314.2+ result in doubt (by doubt, I mean doubt that it predates the Viking Period in Scandinavia). As it is, his closest match (N28650) lists an mdka in Luxembourg.

The next one, Livschitz (ancestral surname) has only 12 markers but is in the Baltic Ashkenazi Cluster (and Livschitz is a non-Scandinavian, Ashkenazi surname).

I haven't investigated all the rest, but I think it is reasonable to have doubts about the ancientness in Scandinavia of Scandinavian samples that test positive for clades found much more commonly in the Isles and elsewhere farther west. That is not to dismiss them out of hand as Viking Period or post-Viking Period immigrants (involuntary or otherwise). It is simply wise, I think, to keep in mind the following:


L21 of all kinds is far less common in Scandinavia than elsewhere, especially the British Isles;

Men from the Isles and elsewhere have gone to Scandinavia in the historical period as thralls, merchants, mercenary soldiers, etc.; and, significantly, I think,

Those Scandinavian L21+ results that are clearly of Isles or other non-Scandinavian origin are numerous enough to cast doubt on the rest, at least on those who belong to clades much more common in the Isles and elsewhere than in Scandinavia.

rms2
08-18-2013, 10:22 PM
That is correct. Of the 22 skeletons tested, eight were local, seven were from Scandinavia and five were from South-West Iberia. The location is typical of emporia.

We would expect the numbers of people moving in connection with Bronze Age trade networks to be relatively small. However it is worth thinking about when we find an odd sprinkling of some haplogroup far away from where we usually find it. These trade networks were long-distance and probably used by trading families.

I agree, and you know what I meant (obviously, but this is for the rest): far flung oddballs in trading emporia do not necessarily indicate deeper penetration or more extensive settlement. We know, for example, that Arabs frequented the Viking slave markets in Ireland. That does not mean there was significant Arab settlement there, even though an odd Middle Eastern-looking dna result might pop up here and there among the Irish as a consequence.

Mikewww
08-18-2013, 10:48 PM
It is simply wise, I think, to keep in mind the following:


L21 of all kinds is far less common in Scandinavia than elsewhere, especially the British Isles;

Men from the Isles and elsewhere have gone to Scandinavia in the historical period as thralls, merchants, mercenary soldiers, etc.; and, significantly, I think,

Those Scandinavian L21+ results that are clearly of Isles or other non-Scandinavian origin are numerous enough to cast doubt on the rest, at least on those who belong to clades much more common in the Isles and elsewhere than in Scandinavia.


I agree other than to point out that frequency is not necessarily a good indicator of origin. Just because there are ton of L21 folks in the Isles does not mean that all neighboring L21 is from the Isles. France might be a good example.

I don't think L21 originated in Scandinavia, by any means, but I would not discount that many (how many I don't know) L21+ folks might have been in Nordic Countries prior to the Vikings and maybe even back to the Nordic Bronze Age. Just by sure presence and age, L21 might have been in the Isles for 4000 years. The North Sea is not that hard to cross and I think it is quite possible that P312 bethren not as frequent in the Isles were in the Nordic Countries prior to the Viking Age. Why not L21 too? There were no Celtic or Germanic naval blockades. We should probably start up a new thread on this as this is a whole other topic in itself.

P.S. The only reason I emphasize "Nordic" is to include Finland and some people are sensitive about the Scandinavian Peninsula versus Scandinavia versus Fenno-Scandinavia.

Anglecynn
08-19-2013, 10:34 AM
I remember reading about that. The finds were on the Isle of Thanet, at the extreme southeast tip of what is now England, as I recall. It seems likely that was a trading emporium and probably not representative of the Isles nor indicative of any influx of settlers from either Scandinavia or the Mediterranean.

Indeed, but i just meant that if there is evidence for people moving to new places along trade routes it would certainly be one of probably many different reasons for the locations of many haplogroups today, of course not the only or primary reason.

rms2
08-19-2013, 11:23 AM
I agree other than to point out that frequency is not necessarily a good indicator of origin. Just because there are ton of L21 folks in the Isles does not mean that all neighboring L21 is from the Isles. France might be a good example.

I don't think L21 originated in Scandinavia, by any means, but I would not discount that many (how many I don't know) L21+ folks might have been in Nordic Countries prior to the Vikings and maybe even back to the Nordic Bronze Age. Just by sure presence and age, L21 might have been in the Isles for 4000 years. The North Sea is not that hard to cross and I think it is quite possible that P312 bethren not as frequent in the Isles were in the Nordic Countries prior to the Viking Age. Why not L21 too? There were no Celtic or Germanic naval blockades. We should probably start up a new thread on this as this is a whole other topic in itself.

P.S. The only reason I emphasize "Nordic" is to include Finland and some people are sensitive about the Scandinavian Peninsula versus Scandinavia versus Fenno-Scandinavia.

I agree about frequency and origin. I don't think L21 originated in the Isles; I think it originated on the Continent. For one thing, the place with the highest frequency of L21, Ireland, is also overwhelmingly DF13+, so it isn't likely to be the birthplace of L21.

I think there may be some L21 in Scandinavia that got there in ancient times, perhaps represented by those Scandinavians with no Isles or other western matches and no membership in clades common in the Isles or elsewhere.

But Scandinavia differs a little from other parts of the Continent where L21 is found. It lies north and east of a big swathe of land that is practically devoid of L21. L21 starts dropping off, pretty drastically, as one moves east and north from France into western Germany, and continues to drop to almost nothing. Then, suddenly, one hits northern Denmark and the coast of Norway and the frequency of L21 pops back up a bit to nearly 10%: not huge, but far more than in the lands between France and the Baltic. This circumstance makes the level of L21 in Scandinavia look suspiciously like a product of some kind of interaction with the British Isles. As you said, the North Sea is not hard to cross; in fact, it's practically a highway and almost makes neighbors of the Isles and Scandinavia.

One difference between France and Scandinavia, for one thing, is that, historically, we know people moved from France to the Isles in significant numbers at various times and that movement into the Isles from the Continent was pretty constant. Although there has been movement in the opposite direction, it was nowhere near as significant. For Scandinavia, on the other hand, with the exception of the Anglo-Saxon and Viking settlements, most of the movement has been out of the Isles to Scandinavia (and most of the Anglo-Saxons came not from Scandinavia but from the continental North Sea littoral).

When L21 was new to us, as everyone involved in genetic genealogy at that time will recall, there were quite a few people who argued that it was Irish or British everywhere it was found. That always aggravated me. There was even one prominent and prolific commenter who leapt immediately to the conclusion that all L21 in Scandinavia was the product of the Viking slave trade (a few years earlier, he had said that all R1b in Scandinavia had the same source). I argued strenuously against that idea and in favor of the notion that, not only was L21 not of "thrall" origin in Scandinavia, most of it was native.

Since that time, what I have seen of Scandinavian L21 has given me pause, created doubts, and caused me to modify my position somewhat. I still don't think it's reasonable to say that all of L21 in Scandinavia signifies descent from British and Irish thralls, but I do think some of it does and that much of the rest also got to Scandinavia relatively recently, that is, in the Middle Ages and after.

Mikewww
08-19-2013, 05:41 PM
... I have not had the time yet to go back and look closely at all of these either, but, honestly, I have my doubts about those who belong to subclades common to the Isles. The first one on the list, kit N5924, for example, is P314.2+. I realize the Isles skew in the database could be warping our view of it, but it does cast any Scandinavian P314.2+ result in doubt (by doubt, I mean doubt that it predates the Viking Period in Scandinavia). As it is, his closest match (N28650) lists an mdka in Luxembourg.

I moved the bulk of this respons over to the P312/Celtic U106/Germanic thread as that is the discussion you end up in.

P314.2 is an interesting case and reminds me I should look at a list of L21 Low Countries. I think it is possible that L21 was once much more frequent in the Low Countries but was over run.

P314.2 is a good example of how we have to be careful in associating age and origin with a subclade. P314.2 fits right below DF21 which fits right below DF13. P314.2 could be quite old, itself. The maximum GD to the P314.2 modal for P314.2+ people is GD=18 at 67. In comparison, M153's (the Basque marker) maximum is GD=11 at 67.

I classify these two guys as 21-314-P13-B
fN28650 Conrardy 314.2* 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
fN5924 Måland(Hjelmeland) P314.2* Norway, Rogaland, Hjelmeland

Even though P314.2 mostly found in Ireland and Scotland, all of those people have the unusual 388=13, whereas the two guys above have the DF21 and L21 modal of 388=12. How do we know where P314.2 is from? We don't, but I wouldn't bet against the continent.

Kopfjäger
08-19-2013, 09:48 PM
I think many folks, including you and Rich, know that I disagree to some extent about L21 in Scandinavia, especially with regards to Norway. I can only speak for the Z255/L159.2 group, but am of the persuasion that the Z255 found in Norway could well have gotten there before the Viking Age. There are a number of samples who match the Z255/L159.2 modal who have ancestry from other Continental European countries, namely France and Germany, so I think Z255 is much like its father, L21, in that it is an North Atlantic-based clade.

I also think folks get caught up in the whole "ancestry pandemonium", where they are allured by some chance their ancestry is exotic or different. I don't think any L159.2 in the Isles is of Viking origin, nor do I think that most L159.2 in Norway is of British Isles provenance. Even Z255's closest relative, Z253, can be found in Norway and neighboring Sweden. The Longacres have many matches of Irish and Scottish background, but maybe this illustrates some common ancestor who scoured the Atlantic coasts some further time back, rather than a member of Lumsden's Musketeers who served King Gustavus Adolphus during the 17th century.

To me, it's not that hard to visualize a group of people who were able-bodied seamen and could travel from Spain to Scandinavia.

Mikewww
08-19-2013, 10:11 PM
I think many folks, including you and Rich, know that I disagree to some extent about L21 in Scandinavia, especially with regards to Norway. I can only speak for the Z255/L159.2 group, but am of the persuasion that the Z255 found in Norway could well have gotten there before the Viking Age. There are a number of samples who match the Z255/L159.2 modal who have ancestry from other Continental European countries, namely France and Germany, so I think Z255 is much like its father, L21, in that it is an North Atlantic-based clade.

I also think folks get caught up in the whole "ancestry pandemonium", where they are allured by some chance their ancestry is exotic or different. I don't think any L159.2 in the Isles is of Viking origin, nor do I think that most L159.2 in Norway is of British Isles provenance. Even Z255's closest relative, Z253, can be found in Norway and neighboring Sweden. The Longacres have many matches of Irish and Scottish background, but maybe this illustrates some common ancestor who scoured the Atlantic coasts some further time back, rather than a member of Lumsden's Musketeers who served King Gustavus Adolphus during the 17th century.

To me, it's not that hard to visualize a group of people who were able-bodied seamen and could travel from Spain to Scandinavia.
Thanks, Neal.

Are the L159.2+ (Irish Sea) folks in Norway somewhat different haplotype-wise? I can't see really the difference, but the whole Irish Sea STR signature seems to be based on faster moving STRs with plenty of exceptions. Does the DYS464X=2c2c test clear anything up?

Your comment "I also think folks get caught up in the whole "ancestry pandemonium", where they are allured by some chance their ancestry is exotic or different" seems to be right on. Of course, according to the astrology critics we all have some of that exotic stuff in us anyway.

rms2
08-19-2013, 10:20 PM
I think many folks, including you and Rich, know that I disagree to some extent about L21 in Scandinavia, especially with regards to Norway. I can only speak for the Z255/L159.2 group, but am of the persuasion that the Z255 found in Norway could well have gotten there before the Viking Age. There are a number of samples who match the Z255/L159.2 modal who have ancestry from other Continental European countries, namely France and Germany, so I think Z255 is much like its father, L21, in that it is an North Atlantic-based clade.

I also think folks get caught up in the whole "ancestry pandemonium", where they are allured by some chance their ancestry is exotic or different. I don't think any L159.2 in the Isles is of Viking origin, nor do I think that most L159.2 in Norway is of British Isles provenance. Even Z255's closest relative, Z253, can be found in Norway and neighboring Sweden. The Longacres have many matches of Irish and Scottish background, but maybe this illustrates some common ancestor who scoured the Atlantic coasts some further time back, rather than a member of Lumsden's Musketeers who served King Gustavus Adolphus during the 17th century.

To me, it's not that hard to visualize a group of people who were able-bodied seamen and could travel from Spain to Scandinavia.

Let's just say I have my doubts. I've already said why.

Kopfjäger
08-19-2013, 10:30 PM
Thanks, Neal.

Are the L159.2+ (Irish Sea) folks in Norway somewhat different haplotype-wise? I can't see really the difference, but the whole Irish Sea STR signature seems to be based on faster moving STRs with plenty of exceptions. Does the DYS464X=2c2c test clear anything up?

Your comment "I also think folks get caught up in the whole "ancestry pandemonium", where they are allured by some chance their ancestry is exotic or different" seems to be right on. Of course, according to the astrology critics we all have some of that exotic stuff in us anyway.

I notice that a couple of the Norwegians (Holmang/Nordland and the Romsdal cluster) do not have many 37 marker matches, and their British Isles 67 marker matches are at least 4 or more steps away. In the case of Mr. Holmang, he has no 67 markers, and only two 37 marker matches, one another Norwegian who shares a common ancestor in Nordland.

The Z255 group as a whole is fairly close to each other anyway - even those with French or German ancestry have numerous British Isles matches - so I am not sure we can get too diverse haplotype-wise before venturing into an ancestral state of being Z255-. That's why I made the Z253 reference. Many of these folks also share close British Isles matches, even Spanish.

alan
08-19-2013, 11:11 PM
I think the continental distribution of L21 has a pattern rather like that found in the isles - an old clade that has had a large dent put into it in the east. I suspect that L21 has suffered a similar massive dilution in areas like the Low Countries and perhaps even further east mainly by the large Germanic U106/I intrusions. Lets put it this way, if the beaker idea is correct for L21 in Britain then we cannot lose sight of the fact that beaker types in the isles relate closest to the lower Rhine material. This, given the association of very L21 in the isles with pre-Germanic populations or substrates, strongly suggests L21 once was more dominant further east than today on the continent, at least along the sea approaches to Britain. The strong drop off of U106 on the Germanic-Romance divisions today also suggests the possibility that L21 may have taken a dent with Germanic expansion, much as it apparently has in the isles.

I think U152 may have made inroads with the slow expansion of the influence of urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene from central Europe penetrating north and west from the late Bronze Age onwards. My impression is that L21 may have once been a big player on a line from the Garrone to the Low Countries and perhaps even Scandinavia, basically the northern maritime zone. That would have put L21 in the path of U106 and may have been the worst effected by the U106 expansion.

Kopfjäger
08-20-2013, 01:52 AM
I think the continental distribution of L21 has a pattern rather like that found in the isles - an old clade that has had a large dent put into it in the east. I suspect that L21 has suffered a similar massive dilution in areas like the Low Countries and perhaps even further east mainly by the large Germanic U106/I intrusions. Lets put it this way, if the beaker idea is correct for L21 in Britain then we cannot lose sight of the fact that beaker types in the isles relate closest to the lower Rhine material. This, given the association of very L21 in the isles with pre-Germanic populations or substrates, strongly suggests L21 once was more dominant further east than today on the continent, at least along the sea approaches to Britain. The strong drop off of U106 on the Germanic-Romance divisions today also suggests the possibility that L21 may have taken a dent with Germanic expansion, much as it apparently has in the isles.

I think U152 may have made inroads with the slow expansion of the influence of urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene from central Europe penetrating north and west from the late Bronze Age onwards. My impression is that L21 may have once been a big player on a line from the Garrone to the Low Countries and perhaps even Scandinavia, basically the northern maritime zone. That would have put L21 in the path of U106 and may have been the worst effected by the U106 expansion.

That's basically what I also think, in terms of L21's early history along the North Atlantic. Although, you have a much better grasp of the archaeological aspect of it, and can better articulate the idea.

rms2
08-20-2013, 03:37 PM
It's kind of too bad this thread degenerated into a discussion of L21 in Scandinavia - not that there's anything wrong with a little of that - because it seems to me the non-Scandinavian stats listed in the first few posts in this thread are more significant.

Maybe we could talk about them now?

Dubhthach
08-20-2013, 04:15 PM
What's evident with regards to Ireland is that Z255/L159.2 is quite intewoven with surnames connected to the major dynastical groupings with the Laighin (historic kingdom of Leinster). This can be seen by the positive results from surnames that belong to either the:

Uí Cheinnselaigh
Uí Dhúnlainge


Both of which were at varying times heavily integrated with Viking Kingdom of Dublin in forms of marriage and political/military allaince.

The prime example obviously been Máel Mórda mac Murchada who was brother-in-law to Olaf Cuaran (King of Dublin) and uncle and ally of Sigtrygg II Silkbeard Olafsson (King of Dublin).

Of coure Sigtrygg widowed mother was one of Brian Boru (Dál gCais eg. L226) divorced wives, he was also married to one of Brian's daughters.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Sihtric_989_1036_ruler_of_Dublin.jpg/482px-Sihtric_989_1036_ruler_of_Dublin.jpg

I should point out that the Byrnes of Leinster are descended from Bran son of Máel Mórda. Bran died in Cologne in 1052.

-Paul
(DF41+)

k.o.gran
08-20-2013, 05:04 PM
Okay, I did copy/paste the wrong names. Here is the true L21* group, although LeBlanc needs to test for DF63. He's one of the most unique with no one around I can match with.

f37201 Berry England, Yorkshire and Humber, West Yorkshire, Almondbury Huddersfield
f167223 LeBlanc France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne
f26883 Tupper England, South East, West Sussex, Bury
f290662 Wildes Unknown
fN49494 zzzUnk(Wildes) zzzUnkOrigin
f8814 Blancett zzzUnkOrigin
f236395 Bishop England
fN80403 Bishop England, London
f94428 Meadows England
f25304 Maddox France

I disagree that LeBlanc should be in this group. Although only 37 markers have been tested for kit f167223, those markers are very similar to those of kit f127090 LeBlanc, who has tested DF63+. I find it very interesting that we still have not seen L21** from other places than England and France.

-Kai

Mikewww
08-20-2013, 05:13 PM
I disagree that LeBlanc should be in this group. Although only 37 markers have been tested for kit f167223, those markers are very similar to those of kit f127090 LeBlanc, who has tested DF63+. I find it very interesting that we still have not seen L21** from other places than England and France.

-Kai

Thanks for the heads up. I didn't have the other LeBlanc or I just misclassified this one. I did screw up my DF63 columns a week ago (they are at the end of my spreadsheet.)

[EDIT 08/21/2013: Since this LeBlanc was only 37 STRs I didn't pick him up as DF63 probably (by GD with the other LeBlanc) when reconstructing DF63 varieties. This is fixed and it doesn't look like I lost any rows in the spreadsheet screw-up, just columns.]

avalon
08-21-2013, 08:21 AM
Davis is one of the most common surnames in Wales. Maddox and its many variants is also Welsh, from the Old Welsh personal name Matoc.

It may seem pedantic but the surname Davis is more likely to be English. Davies is the Welsh surname. There may be a few exceptions to this, for instance, a Davies may have emigrated to America and anglicised his surname to Davis.

rms2
08-21-2013, 03:04 PM
What's evident with regards to Ireland is that Z255/L159.2 is quite intewoven with surnames connected to the major dynastical groupings with the Laighin (historic kingdom of Leinster). This can be seen by the positive results from surnames that belong to either the:

Uí Cheinnselaigh
Uí Dhúnlainge


Both of which were at varying times heavily integrated with Viking Kingdom of Dublin in forms of marriage and political/military allaince.

The prime example obviously been Máel Mórda mac Murchada who was brother-in-law to Olaf Cuaran (King of Dublin) and uncle and ally of Sigtrygg II Silkbeard Olafsson (King of Dublin).

Of coure Sigtrygg widowed mother was one of Brian Boru (Dál gCais eg. L226) divorced wives, he was also married to one of Brian's daughters.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0d/Sihtric_989_1036_ruler_of_Dublin.jpg/482px-Sihtric_989_1036_ruler_of_Dublin.jpg

I should point out that the Byrnes of Leinster are descended from Bran son of Máel Mórda. Bran died in Cologne in 1052.

-Paul
(DF41+)

So, making logical inferences as we humans are wont to do, one has to conclude that it's quite likely that either 1) the Z255 in Scandinavia came from Irishmen who were involved in this Norse-Irish alliance or 2) the Z255 in Ireland came from Norsemen who were involved in this Norse-Irish alliance.

I know which conclusion makes the most sense to me. ;)

Mikewww
08-21-2013, 07:06 PM
I think the continental distribution of L21 has a pattern rather like that found in the isles - an old clade that has had a large dent put into it in the east. I suspect that L21 has suffered a similar massive dilution in areas like the Low Countries and perhaps even further east mainly by the large Germanic U106/I intrusions. Lets put it this way, if the beaker idea is correct for L21 in Britain then we cannot lose sight of the fact that beaker types in the isles relate closest to the lower Rhine material. This, given the association of very L21 in the isles with pre-Germanic populations or substrates, strongly suggests L21 once was more dominant further east than today on the continent, at least along the sea approaches to Britain. The strong drop off of U106 on the Germanic-Romance divisions today also suggests the possibility that L21 may have taken a dent with Germanic expansion, much as it apparently has in the isles.

I think U152 may have made inroads with the slow expansion of the influence of urnfield-Hallstatt-La Tene from central Europe penetrating north and west from the late Bronze Age onwards. My impression is that L21 may have once been a big player on a line from the Garrone to the Low Countries and perhaps even Scandinavia, basically the northern maritime zone. That would have put L21 in the path of U106 and may have been the worst effected by the U106 expansion.

The Low Countries are right in the path where Germanic expansions moved through to England. I honestly thought we had more L21 folks from there. These are all confirmed L21 except Woods but I think he is a safe bet. These 10 guys don't cluster very well with the high odds British Isles clusters that I can see.

fE9807 Kaptein R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Z246* 21-246- uas Netherlands
fN28650 Conrardy R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2* 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
f76285 Woods zzL21suspect 253-2534-2185-1066-T4 Netherlands
fN3933 Ammerlaan R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513- uas Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen
f184065 Jones R1b-P312>L21 513- uas Netherlands
fN21969 Aten R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands
f224274 Lemoine R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Belgium, French Community
fN28819 Teulings R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, North Brabant, 's-Hertogenbosch
fN5223 Van Der Merwe R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, South Holland, Dordrecht
f35171 Vanover R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, Zeeland (Flanders), Sluis


As a comparison, I looked at the P312xL21 file for the Low Countries and found:
22 DF27
12 P312xL21xU152 (DF27?)
1 P312* (counted de Frimbes)
5 DF19
35 U152

The quantity of ten L21 seems exceptionally low. Am I missing something or did the Germanic expansions that totally blew L21 out of this region include some other elements of P312? or did a heavy latter period Spanish connection with the Netherlands make this a difficult comparison?
... or maybe there just wasn't that much L21 there?

One problem maybe I couldn't identify any STR based cluster members in Benelux for L21 other than the P314.2 and Irish IV/L1066 guys which were already identified by their SNPs. One way to look at that would be Benelux is undertested and the unidentified L21 might be very diverse. On the other side of the coin, it was pretty easy to pick up some DF27>Z196>Z220 NS cluster guys.

Does anyone have L21 details from the Brabant DNA study? That would be great if saw those as they would be 100x better than the DNA projects.

Alan, I see what you mean about potential late Bronze and early Iron Ages bringing more U152 (and DF27 too) to the Low Countries making a big dent on L21 there. The Germanic expansions with I1 and U106 (and maybe more P312 elements) might have just been the final nail fairly well diminishing L21.

alan
08-21-2013, 08:00 PM
I think if there is one clear pattern, its that P312 is very dominant in the former Celtic areas of France, Waloon Belgium, Iberia, the isles, Switzerland, south Germany, north Italy etc. It drops off in the more eastern parts of the Celtic lands in central and SE Europe but those were areas where Celts were mixed with other elements and in many cases clearly a late intrusive elite.

There is no comparable dominance of a single ydna line among Germanic speakers. They just seem more of a mixed bag to me and P312 including L21 seems to have been part of that mix. I would be tempted to put that down to the late origin of proto-Germanic and its even later expansion. Just no enough time between the origin of proto-German and its expansion period a few centuries later for it to have become dominated by a single clade.

Mikewww
08-21-2013, 08:15 PM
I think if there is one clear pattern, its that P312 is very dominant in the former Celtic areas of France, Waloon Belgium, Iberia, the isles, Switzerland, south Germany, north Italy etc. It drops off in the more eastern parts of the Celtic lands in central and SE Europe but those were areas where Celts were mixed with other elements and in many cases clearly a late intrusive elite...
I'll look up France next. I don't think we have as much detail as we want from real studies other than the study Richard R pointed to related to the Pyrenees region and Basques.

Alan, I'll copy over the remainder of you post to the P312/U106 Celtic/Germanic thread so we can focus on that kind of stuff over there.

alan
08-21-2013, 09:07 PM
The Low Countries are right in the path where Germanic expansions moved through to England. I honestly thought we had more L21 folks from there. These are all confirmed L21 except Woods but I think he is a safe bet. These 10 guys don't cluster very well with the high odds British Isles clusters that I can see.

fE9807 Kaptein R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Z246* 21-246- uas Netherlands
fN28650 Conrardy R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2* 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
f76285 Woods zzL21suspect 253-2534-2185-1066-T4 Netherlands
fN3933 Ammerlaan R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513- uas Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen
f184065 Jones R1b-P312>L21 513- uas Netherlands
fN21969 Aten R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands
f224274 Lemoine R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Belgium, French Community
fN28819 Teulings R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, North Brabant, 's-Hertogenbosch
fN5223 Van Der Merwe R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, South Holland, Dordrecht
f35171 Vanover R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, Zeeland (Flanders), Sluis


As a comparison, I looked at the P312xL21 file for the Low Countries and found:
22 DF27
12 P312xL21xU152 (DF27?)
1 P312* (counted de Frimbes)
5 DF19
35 U152

The quantity of ten L21 seems exceptionally low. Am I missing something or did the Germanic expansions that totally blew L21 out of this region include some other elements of P312? or did a heavy latter period Spanish connection with the Netherlands make this a difficult comparison?
... or maybe there just wasn't that much L21 there?

One problem maybe I couldn't identify any STR based cluster members in Benelux for L21 other than the P314.2 and Irish IV/L1066 guys which were already identified by their SNPs. One way to look at that would be Benelux is undertested and the unidentified L21 might be very diverse. On the other side of the coin, it was pretty easy to pick up some DF27>Z196>Z220 NS cluster guys.

Does anyone have L21 details from the Brabant DNA study? That would be great if saw those as they would be 100x better than the DNA projects.

Alan, I see what you mean about potential late Bronze and early Iron bring more U152 (and DF27 too) to the Low Countries making a big dent on L21 there. The Germanic expansions with I1 and U106 (and maybe more P312 elements) might have just been the final nail fairly well diminishing L21.

It really wouldnt make sense for Britain to be so high in L21 all over if L21 had been as low as it now is in Holland. Then agin L21 appears to have been very diluted in SE England too so perhaps the Dutch situation is just an even more extreme version of this dilution. An indirect hint that L21 was once strong on even the extreme east coast is shown in north-eastern Scotland, where despite a significant input of Medieval settlers from England and the NW Continent (land owners, towns people, fishermen etc), L21 is far and away the biggest group. The east of Scotland was well settled with beaker peoples of an eastern origin probably from both eastern England and the Lower Rhine. So, this is again indirect evidence that at one time L21 may have been dominant on all the main approaches to Britain, including the more easterly ones around Holland. It is inconcievable that L21 would dominate from NE Scotland to SW Ireland if it was not dominant along the entire continental coast from Brittany to the Holland in the beaker period. It might even be that L21's dominance was due to maritime lineages who had the ability to hop around the northern seas while away from the coast and the main south-north flowing rivers their influence may have been reduced. However there is little doubt in my mind that L21 on the continent is very similar to in the isles in terms of its general cline shape and it looks like an early clade that took some heavy knocks later. My guess was its strength on the continent may have decline after 600BC when the sea networks there declined in importance and central European dominance increased. Then there was probably an even stronger impact of the Germanic expansions curring a swath through the low countries and the Rhine which probably dramtically reduced it. This probably created a rather misleading pattern today. I suspect based on beakers that L21 was once very important on the Rhine, quite possible the origin point of L21 but that all we see now is a 'fringe' that is more western.

alan
08-21-2013, 09:20 PM
The Low Countries are right in the path where Germanic expansions moved through to England. I honestly thought we had more L21 folks from there. These are all confirmed L21 except Woods but I think he is a safe bet. These 10 guys don't cluster very well with the high odds British Isles clusters that I can see.

fE9807 Kaptein R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Z246* 21-246- uas Netherlands
fN28650 Conrardy R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>P314.2* 21-314-P13-B Luxembourg, Pratz
f76285 Woods zzL21suspect 253-2534-2185-1066-T4 Netherlands
fN3933 Ammerlaan R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513- uas Netherlands, South Holland, Wilsveen
f184065 Jones R1b-P312>L21 513- uas Netherlands
fN21969 Aten R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands
f224274 Lemoine R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Belgium, French Community
fN28819 Teulings R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, North Brabant, 's-Hertogenbosch
fN5223 Van Der Merwe R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, South Holland, Dordrecht
f35171 Vanover R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned Netherlands, Zeeland (Flanders), Sluis


As a comparison, I looked at the P312xL21 file for the Low Countries and found:
22 DF27
12 P312xL21xU152 (DF27?)
1 P312* (counted de Frimbes)
5 DF19
35 U152

The quantity of ten L21 seems exceptionally low. Am I missing something or did the Germanic expansions that totally blew L21 out of this region include some other elements of P312? or did a heavy latter period Spanish connection with the Netherlands make this a difficult comparison?
... or maybe there just wasn't that much L21 there?

One problem maybe I couldn't identify any STR based cluster members in Benelux for L21 other than the P314.2 and Irish IV/L1066 guys which were already identified by their SNPs. One way to look at that would be Benelux is undertested and the unidentified L21 might be very diverse. On the other side of the coin, it was pretty easy to pick up some DF27>Z196>Z220 NS cluster guys.

Does anyone have L21 details from the Brabant DNA study? That would be great if saw those as they would be 100x better than the DNA projects.

Alan, I see what you mean about potential late Bronze and early Iron Ages bringing more U152 (and DF27 too) to the Low Countries making a big dent on L21 there. The Germanic expansions with I1 and U106 (and maybe more P312 elements) might have just been the final nail fairly well diminishing L21.


http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/2013_Larmuseau_IncreasingPhylogeneticResolutionSti llInformativeForYChromosomalStudies.pdf

This study puts L21 at about a quarter of P312 in the northern Belgium area. P312 is fairly evenly split up in that area and appears that the highest is P312XL21XU152XSRY2627. In most places we would think that that is DF27. However, this cannot simply be assumed. This area is dominated by Dutch speakers and has a large amount of U106 so its safe to say that most P312 clades were once higher and impacted badly by the Germanic intrusion into what was Belgic Gaul. My suspicion is that before this L21 was strongest on the coastal areas of the Low Countries facing Britain and that they may have been especially badly hit. The paper I posted would support that conclusion as L21 is strongest in the west which also happens to be Flanders, a coastal area which is especially strong in Dutch speakers today. So, I think the pre-Germanic substrate may have once had a pattern of L21 being strong near the coast with other clades stronger inland.

Mikewww
08-21-2013, 09:40 PM
Let's jump into France.

Study-wise, from the Pyrenees/Basque study, Richard R posted this (Spanish side edited out):

Ramos-Luis (2012):
...
27.3% __ Baztan, France
14.3% __ Bearn, France
13.6% __ Nafarroa, France
10.3% __ Chalosse, France
06.8% __ Bigorre, France
05.7% __ Zuberoa, France

Here are some other misc. numbers from SE France.


19.4% __ Alpes-de-Haute-Provence, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
11.1% __ Marseilles, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Ramos-Luis 2009)
08.2% __ Vaucluse, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, France (Myres 2010)

I don't think the one study on Finistere (which is Bretagne anyway) actually tested for L21 but we'll have to go find that one.

From DNA projects, here are French people that are L21+ confirmed or STR cluster matches from France that didn't list Bretagne. There's 102 with another 20 (not listed) that do mark Bretagne. Thanks to Richard S's and Alan's efforts for ensuring French MDKAs have been investigated/tested.


f119179 Rideau R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France (southern)
fN82517 Pontbriant R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Aquitaine, Dordogne, Issac
f156432 La Tours R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Aquitaine, Dordogne, Peyrignac
f176268 Gontaut R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L96+ 96-1121 France, Aquitaine, Pyrénées-Atlantiques, Biron
f78065 Lamphier R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 49-23*- uas France, Languedoc-Roussillon
f171847 Grant R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned England, Channel Islands (near France)
f21472 Johnston R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222- uas England, Channel Islands (near France)
f79112 Grenier R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253-2534-1322 France (northern)
f226116 Hebert zzL21suspect 255-1830-11 France, I'le-de-France, Paris
fN92711 Le Provost R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 49-23*- uas France, Basse-Normandie, Avranches
fE15470 Onfray R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Fresnes
fE13942 Robert(Lefèvre) R1b-P312>L21>DF13* zzDF13unassigned France, Basse-Normandie, Calvados, Merville-Franceville-Plage
fN6464 LeNormand R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Basse-Normandie, Orne, Mortagne-au-Perche
fN9039 Labelle R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Bassie-Normandie, Calvados, Saint-Benoît-d'Hébertot
f42310 St. Jorre dit Sargerie R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Bassie-Normandie, Machne
f150405 Turpin R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513 513-FA France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Brécey
f45343 St. Jorre dit Sergerie R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Le Rocher
f162326 Leprovost R1b-P312>L21 679x France, Bassie-Normandie, Manche, Lithaire
f224772 Trottier zzL21suspect 21-5909-A France, Bassie-Normandie, Orme, Mortagne-au-Perche, Le Maine
fN36294 Lessard R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Bassie-Normandie, Orne, Chambois
f18199 Landry R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Bassie-Normandie, Orne, Neuilly-sur-Eure
fE5171 Rotrou R1b-P312>L21 z1014 France, Centre, Eure-et-Loir, Cloyes-sur-le-Loir
f4568 Hebert R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Centre, Indre-et-Loire, Descartes
f1042 Amirault R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Centre, Indre-et-Loire, Tours
fN54614 Millot dit Champagne R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Champagne-Ardenne, Haute-Marne, Villers-le-Sec
f166883 Levasseur R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Bois-Guillaume
f198135 Brunet R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
f25232 DuBois R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
f87095 Dubose R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Dieppe
f72604 Couture zzL21suspect 513-B2-705-B France, Haute-Normandie, Seine-Maritime, Rouen
f133975 Delahoussaye R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Île-de-France, Paris
f197766 Thibault zzL21suspect z5651115-A France, Île-de-France, Paris
f146653 Doucet R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Île-de-France, Seine-et-Marne, La Ferté-Gaucher
f86866 Benoit zzL21suspect X1363-6919? France, Normandie
yDPVGV Thiery R1b-P312>L21 251-11EE France, Picardy, Chateau-Thierry
f82681 St Jean R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Pays de la Loire, Loire-Atlantique, Nantes
f82258 Cartier R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Pays de la Loire, Maine-et-Loire, Drain
fE5945 Secher R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z142024 France, Pays de la Loire, Maine-et-Loire, Drain
f84034 Hamon R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Pays de la Loire, Mayenne, Le Bourgneuf-la-Forêt
f167223 LeBlanc R1b-P312>L21* X1363- uas France, Poitou-Charente, Vienne, Martaizé, Vienne
f18917 Brun R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23 49-23*-11-A France, Poitou-Charentes
f85844 Bergeron R1b-P312>L21>DF13>L513>L706.2>L705.2+ 513-B2-705-O France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
f243119 Bertrand R1b-P312>L21>DF63* X1363-21 France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
f143405 Dussault R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, La Rochelle
f57411 Fournier R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222-46013 France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Marans
f160587 Bodine R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Poitou-Charentes, Charente-Maritime, Medis
f160207 Baudon R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Poitou-Charentes, Cherente-Maritime, La Jarrie
f226146 Marché R1b-P312>L21>DF13 z101710 France, Poitou-Charentes, Deux-Sèvres
f127515 Dupuis R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Poitou-Charentes, Vienne, La Chaussée
f158098 Wendling R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France, Alsace, Elsass
f75447 Gross zzL21suspect z43714 France, Alsace, Grendelbruch
fN42297 Issemann R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Alsace, Haut-Rhin, Colmar
fN67581 Bontron-Major R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF41 41-563-1411 France, Franche-Comté, Doubs, Montussaint
f47514 Ballard R1b-P312>L21 4466-T2 France, Lorraine, Meurthe-et-Moselle
f55943 Schneider R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z255>L159.2+ 255-1830-IS-C France, Lorraine, Moselle, Montbronn
f182980 Georgel R1b-P312>L21 49- uas France, Lorraine, Vosges, Gugnécourt
yCUD2R Easley R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Provence-Alpes-Côte d'Azur, Ansouis
f23nME32 Gignoux R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France, Rhône-Alpes, Iser, Grenoble
fE5371 Bellieres R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253- uas France
f229499 Bertrand R1b-P312>L21>DF63 X1363-21 France
f234677 Bertrand R1b-P312>L21>DF63* X1363-21 France
f236449 Bertrand R1b-P312>L21 X1363-21 France
f238019 Bertrand R1b-P312>L21 X1363-21 France
f207199 Bouffard zzL21suspect 253-2534-1616 France
fN72509 Bowman R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f191044 Corse R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222-44724 France
fN8440 Crapo zzL21suspect z123014 France
f61882 Crapo R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f203487 Doucet R1b-P312>L21 z4381325 France
fN58591 Doyer R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222>PF1169+ 49-2329222-48714-A France
f216381 Drouillard zzL21suspect z141121 France
f63536 Ferguson zzL21suspect 1335-Sc-2413 France
f206686 Gaston zzL21suspect 255-1830-IS France
f131104 Grandbois zzL21suspect 251-711 France
f92044 Graveron zzL21suspect 253-1716-11 France
f96218 Grenon zzL21suspect 49- uas France
f73834 Landon R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961* 49-2329-1922-J France
f53151 Landry R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f235406 Le Duc R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France
f127090 LeBlanc R1b-P312>L21>DF63 X1363- uas France
fE4911 Lefeber R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f266497 Lessard R1b-P312>L21>DF13>Z253 253- uas France
f171680 Levasseur R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France
f25304 Maddox R1b-P312>L21** X13-131411 France
f192377 Marceau(Z253?) zzL21suspect 253-1716-11 France
f158136 Montgomery R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21 21-9913 France
f211522 Pestel zzL21suspect 21-2225-EC France
f113131 Ramey zzL21suspect 253-1716-11F France
fN37432 Revi zzL21suspect z42613-B France
f58641 Rioux zzL21suspect 41- uas France
f31938 Runion zzL21suspect 21-246-255-3655-X France
f30052 Runyan zzL21suspect 21-246-255-3655-X France
f280362 Turner R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f42087 Via R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF21>Z246>DF25>DF5 21-246-255- uas France
fE13767 Vigourt R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f273510 Woodard R1b-P312>L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>Z2961>M222 49-2329222- uas France
f87958 Young zzL21suspect 4466-T2 France
f111911 zzzUnk(Byrne) zzL21suspect 255-1830-IS-B2 France
fE14775 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21>DF13 zzDF13unassigned France
f179489 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
fN7241 zzzUnknown R1b-P312>L21 zzL21unassigned France
f67944 Sterling R1b-P312>L21 21-314- uas France

alan
08-21-2013, 11:08 PM
One thing I think is fair to day about continental L21 is that although there is a cline, its also patchy in detail. I get the general impression that extremes of any P312 clade tend to occur on the geographical extremes or natural termini like the isles, Spain, Italy etc while my impression of much of the area centred on France, Belgium etc is a real jumble of P312 clades. L21 also seems to have some peaks in natural termini like NW France, the isles, the north Pyrenees, SE France etc or you could interpret these as natural lines of retreat or refuges for an older clade to remain at a higher frequency. My overall feeling is that L21 has a kind of shattered or truncated modern distribution that suggests this. On the other hand it also has a maritime feel too. Its hard to tease out the fill reason for its modern pattern. It doesnt have a simple single period explanation for its modern pattern and it seems likely that it has changed a lot over time to me.

It does seem to have had first-in advantage in the isles. On the other hand, is the high frequency in the Celtic fringe of the isles simply because the ancient pre-Roman lineages were left undisturbed there for far longer than in other places. A heck of a lot of the high frequency of L21 seems to be down to a handful or so of lineages of Medieval or late prehistoric date. So, the very high peaks there may be misleading to some degree if we try and extrapolate this back further in time.

Kopfjäger
08-22-2013, 01:39 AM
So, making logical inferences as we humans are wont to do, one has to conclude that it's quite likely that either 1) the Z255 in Scandinavia came from Irishmen who were involved in this Norse-Irish alliance or 2) the Z255 in Ireland came from Norsemen who were involved in this Norse-Irish alliance.

I know which conclusion makes the most sense to me. ;)

I don't think either is the answer to Norwegian Z255. The Norwegians who are Z255/L159.2+ do not look as closely related to the Byrnes and Kinsellas as other Irish and Scots do.

R.Rocca
08-22-2013, 01:59 AM
L21 seems to be especially low along the Rhine. The Genomes of the Netherlands has L21 at 3.2% which is similar to the 3.1% frequency Busby found in northern Germany. It drops off to ~1-2% in the middle and upper German Rhine.

alan
08-22-2013, 08:36 AM
I have my doubts about the sampling along the Rhine. It just seems so contradictory to the large amount of L21 that popped up along the Rhineland and adjacent in hobbiest testing. I know there is a bias to that area but that is not a bias that only effects L21 and its odd that the latter competes well with other R1b clades in hobbiest testing relating to the Rhineland. I suspect L21 has pockets of strength on the middle Rhine that have not been picked up in the academic sampling.

R.Rocca
08-22-2013, 12:08 PM
I have my doubts about the sampling along the Rhine. It just seems so contradictory to the large amount of L21 that popped up along the Rhineland and adjacent in hobbiest testing. I know there is a bias to that area but that is not a bias that only effects L21 and its odd that the latter competes well with other R1b clades in hobbiest testing relating to the Rhineland. I suspect L21 has pockets of strength on the middle Rhine that have not been picked up in the academic sampling.

I think the data is pretty irrefutable. We have multiple and independent datasets all telling us that L21 is anywhere from 2-4% along the Rhine (Genome of the Netherlands, Myres, and Busby from Kaiser 2005). Even when we consider Larmuseau 2013 from Limburg in the Netherlands (which is not on the Rhine but close enough) the frequency is of L21 is 4.2%. Limburg seems pretty central to the area of the Dutch Bell Beakers.

Mikewww
08-22-2013, 12:44 PM
http://secher.bernard.free.fr/DNA/2013_Larmuseau_IncreasingPhylogeneticResolutionSti llInformativeForYChromosomalStudies.pdf

This study puts L21 at about a quarter of P312 in the northern Belgium area. P312 is fairly evenly split up in that area and appears that the highest is P312XL21XU152XSRY2627. In most places we would think that that is DF27. However, this cannot simply be assumed. This area is dominated by Dutch speakers and has a large amount of U106 so its safe to say that most P312 clades were once higher and impacted badly by the Germanic intrusion into what was Belgic Gaul. My suspicion is that before this L21 was strongest on the coastal areas of the Low Countries facing Britain and that they may have been especially badly hit. The paper I posted would support that conclusion as L21 is strongest in the west which also happens to be Flanders, a coastal area which is especially strong in Dutch speakers today. So, I think the pre-Germanic substrate may have once had a pattern of L21 being strong near the coast with other clades stronger inland.

Thanks, Alan. I pulled the numbers out of the paper for everyone to see. The study is "Increasing phylogenetic resolution still informative for Y chromosomal studies on West-European populations" by Larmuseau, et. al., 2012. The total sampled is 773 so this is probably as good as we will get.

Here are the L21 frequences for Belgium and part of the Netherlands. This is listed in somewhat of a southwest (closest to France) to northeast (Netherlands) sequence:

13.8% __ French/Romance Surnames Group (not any particular region but these surnames were separated out)
07.3% __ West Flanders
06.8% __ East Flanders
06.1% __ Antwerp
07.3% __ Flemish/Walloon Brabant
05.3% __ Limburg (most northeastern part of Beligum)
06.1% __ North Brabant (southern part of the Netherlands)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_Belgium

As expected, those who might be French descended have higher L21 rates. I was a little surprised that L21 made a decent showing even all the up in the way up to the Netherlands and Limburg.

Richard R, I'm seeing Limburg at 5.3% from Larmuseau, not 4.2%. Are we looking at the same column? I guess this is another half-full/half-empty glass thing. To me, 5.3% indicates signficance*, but given the all the various migrations across this area, particularly by Germanic groups, I wouldn't expect a high number for a group that may have been there 4500 years ago and been run over by possibly a lot of folks from the Urnfielders to Hallstatt/La Tene to Romans to Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic groups. Over a couple of thousand years, L21 may have found much safer haven in the Isles rather than in one of the main traffic patterns on the continent.

An alternative view is that L21 may never have been a mainstay in this region or the dominant player in the Rhenish Bell Beaker group. He may have just been in the mix but happened to be first or just extra successful in the Isles. This may just be breadcrumbs from the L21 trail. To be a member of a people, i.e. Rhenish Bell Beakers, does not require you were a majority of the population.

Note *: I guess I should re-iterate that I don't think higher frequencies are good indicators of origins for ancient populations. Therefore a high frequency is not necessarily more valuable for understanding the trail a people may have followed. I'm also not trying to associate one haplogroup with an ethnicity or group (i.e. Rhenish Beakers) as the dominant player or primary player or something like that. I don't really care who was biggest way back when. I'm just looking for a trail, and in this case it's L21's trail. Yes, at some point the a very low frequency means nothing at all because it could nothing but "background noise", modern travel and the like. I don't know what that threshold is. It may depend on the situation. I'm quite willing to discuss the value of frequency, diversity, etc. in depth, but that should be another, more general Y DNA thread. I've found studies that back up that modern frequency is not important for detecting ancient populations in places where there has been significant population growth.

R.Rocca
08-22-2013, 03:19 PM
...

Richard R, I'm seeing Limburg at 5.3% from Larmuseau, not 4.2%. Are we looking at the same column? I guess this is another half-full/half-empty glass thing. To me, 5.3% indicates signficance*, but given the all the various migrations across this area, particularly by Germanic groups, I wouldn't expect a high number for a group that may have been there 4500 years ago and been run over by possibly a lot of folks from the Urnfielders to Hallstatt/La Tene to Romans to Anglo-Saxons and other Germanic groups. Over a couple of thousand years, L21 may have found much safer haven in the Isles rather than in one of the main traffic patterns on the continent.

...



To keep it apples-to-apples, the Larmuseau study has two different datasets, one based on a 'present' population and the other based on 'genealogical' population. As I had mentioned, the current Limburg frequency is 4.2%. These numbers sometimes go up or down a little, but not much. For P312 lineages, the only one that changed substantially is that L21 frequency doubled in the coastal areas in the last 400 years or so.

I am a big believer that U106 was a big player in Rhenish Bell Beakers and that's why we see it in some areas where Germanic incursions did not occur in the Isles and conversely, missing in places like Wales where BB is missing. Of note, the R1b+ U106- Kromsdorf Bell Beaker samples were part of the Eastern BB province, not the Rhenish BB province.



[[[ Mikewww/Moderator on 08/25/2013: Richard Rocca's post #85 (here) has a paragraph on a tangent about U106 and that is fine but better explored (on that tangent) over in the P312/U106/Celtic/Germanic thread.

At about the same time, RMS2 noted in the P312/U106/Celtic/Germanic on post #118 that "It seems that in part this thread and the "L21 Hotpsots" thread in the L21 subforum are somewhat redundant, because some of the same conversation is occurring over there."

I agree with that and moved any following posts in the L21 hotspots thread that really didn't have much at all to do with L21 or were primarily Celtic/Germanic issues. I moved those over to the P312/U106/Celtic/Germanic thread. That's what I was trying to explain in post #86 on the L21 hotspots thread when I said "I think your thoughts on U106 and Rhenish Beakers are also interesting but I'll post a question on the P312/U106 Germanic/Italic thread on that because that's where it belongs."

Please realize its not easy to untangle some of these things. It hard to keep threads entirely pure and that is probably not realistic in free-flowing conversatiion. I try to respond when someone complains but sometimes the resulting actions I can take may not be perfect either. ]]]

Mikewww
08-22-2013, 03:41 PM
To keep it apples-to-apples, the Larmuseau study has two different datasets, one based on a 'present' population and the other based on 'genealogical' population. As I had mentioned, the current Limburg frequency is 4.2%. These numbers sometimes go up or down a little, but not much. For P312 lineages, the only one that changed substantially is that L21 frequency doubled in the coastal areas in the last 400 years or so.

I am a big believer that U106 was a big player in Rhenish Bell Beakers and that's why we see it in some areas where Germanic incursions did not occur in the Isles and conversely, missing in places like Wales where BB is missing. Of note, the R1b+ U106- Kromsdorf Bell Beaker samples were part of the Eastern BB province, not the Rhenish BB province.

Thanks. That's interesting. I wonder what history is that would account for Welsh or Irish going to these coastal regions over the last several hundred years? I think your thoughts on U106 and Rhenish Beakers are also interesting but I'll post a question on the P312/U106 Germanic/Italic thread on that because that's where it belongs.

I am not up on the various regional/type Beaker groups. Can you point to any papers that are good reading that get granular in describing differences between the groups?

Dubhthach
08-22-2013, 04:15 PM
Thanks. That's interesting. I wonder what history is that would account for Welsh or Irish going to these coastal regions over the last several hundred years?

Welsh and/or Irish going to coastal areas in the Low countries? Not sure I'm following there Mike. Though I will say one obvious draw for Irish to the area in the 16th/17th century was service in the "Army of Flanders" (Spanish service). Thousands serving in it during the course of the "80 year war"


The Irish tercio in Flanders fluctuated in size according to the needs of war: it consisted in theory of around a thousand men. In the seventeenth century soldiers were accompanied by close members of their natural families – wives and sons – and sometimes other relatives, ‘vassals’ or collaterals within the kin group, moved to Flanders seeking protection. Gráinne Henry, in her work on the Irish community in those territories, has estimated a migration of around 10,000 Irishmen between 1586 and 1622, and the recruitment of some 6,300 soldiers into the Army of Flanders during the period. In the Peninsula, during the first years of seventeenth century Galicia alone supported nearly a thousand enlisted Irish.

http://www.irishineurope.com/about/research/irish-military-spain

rms2
08-23-2013, 08:22 PM
I don't think either is the answer to Norwegian Z255. The Norwegians who are Z255/L159.2+ do not look as closely related to the Byrnes and Kinsellas as other Irish and Scots do.

Well, they shouldn't, should they? The Norwegians who are Z255+, if they have a y-dna origin in Ireland, could only hope to share with living Irishmen a common ancestor who was born in the 10th century, that is, over a thousand years ago, and that is at the very closest. The lines that survived in both places may have already had a bit more distance than that between them.

It's only my opinion, but it seems really likely to me that the Z255 in Norway got there from Ireland.

Mikewww
08-23-2013, 09:10 PM
Welsh and/or Irish going to coastal areas in the Low countries? Not sure I'm following there Mike. Though I will say one obvious draw for Irish to the area in the 16th/17th century was service in the "Army of Flanders" (Spanish service).

Paul, I just placed that query because Richard mentioned in regards to the "genealogical" data versus the raw data from Brabant study.

Larmuseau study... These numbers sometimes go up or down a little, but not much. For P312 lineages, the only one that changed substantially is that L21 frequency doubled in the coastal areas in the last 400 years or so.

Something seems amiss with the study. I wouldn't expect a doubling of L21 from English people coming to the coastal areas. I would have thought it had to be Irish or Welsh immigrating in but I guess you are saying we shouldn't have such an expectation.

Why would L21 frequency have doubled from the genealogical to the raw data?

rms2
08-24-2013, 10:42 AM
Paul, I just placed that query because Richard mentioned in regards to the "genealogical" data versus the raw data from Brabant study.


Something seems amiss with the study. I wouldn't expect a doubling of L21 from English people coming to the coastal areas. I would have thought it had to be Irish or Welsh immigrating in but I guess you are saying we shouldn't have such an expectation.

Why would L21 frequency have doubled from the genealogical to the raw data?

I don't have any definitive answers to offer, but it seems to me the Thirty Years War might have affected the population balance in that region, with perhaps newcomers from farther west replacing people lost in the war. I don't know that is the case; I'm just thinking out loud.

alan
08-24-2013, 07:22 PM
The paper from memory put this down to immigrants from the French areas just to the west. That seems a lot more likely than immigrants from the isles to me.

This paper mainly focussed on Dutch speaking parts of Belgium and Holland. No P312 clade is especially well represented in this zone. L21 was a respectable quarter of P312 which is very split into various clades in this area. I have to say this dividing of P312 into many clades is reminicent of parts of France, albeit P312 as a whole is less common. I also think Macciamo could almost add another line in his cline if he wasnt doing it at 5% intervals to take into account the up to 7.3% L21 in Flanders and a general pattern around 6-7% in the area. It then seems to fall to below 5% east of the Rhine in Germany. It seems a pretty smooth cline from west to east to me at least from Brittany to the Rhine.

Kopfjäger
08-24-2013, 07:42 PM
Well, they shouldn't, should they? The Norwegians who are Z255+, if they have a y-dna origin in Ireland, could only hope to share with living Irishmen a common ancestor who was born in the 10th century, that is, over a thousand years ago, and that is at the very closest. The lines that survived in both places may have already had a bit more distance than that between them.

It's only my opinion, but it seems really likely to me that the Z255 in Norway got there from Ireland.

This may be one of the few things we disagree on! I still think the Z255 in Norway is not of Irish/British extraction.

Dubhthach
08-24-2013, 09:20 PM
Féni is reused within the legal text and as you mention implies a freeman, an equivalent in some ways is to think of the word Deutsch, which litearlly means "of the people" -- and is cognate with the Irish Tuatha.

Anyways going on the legal tradition in particular Senchas Már (Seanchas Mór = Modern Irish) the Féni also included the Eoghanacht of Munster. Funny of course I was rereading the chapter about "Early Irish Law" by T. M. Charles-Edwards (in "A New History of Ireland -- Volume I Prehistoric and Early Ireland") where he mentions this.

What's interesting of course it reflects the earliest stratum of the who mileasian pseudo-history which claimed that "Dál Cuinn" (Connachta and Uí Néill) and the Eoghanacht were descended from two sons of Míl who had divided the island between them. This then of course is a common theme, so for example later we see the concept of division into Leath Cuinn (Conn's half) and Leath Mogha (half of "Mugh Nuadhat" -- grandfather of Eoghan Mór).

Personally I think this is a reflection of a piece of Realpolitik -- later as other groupings gain power or want status the pseudo-genealogies are expanded to incorporate them for political reasons -- clientelism run riot, if anything it seems vaguely familiar to modern politics in Ireland ;)

What you have to remember regarding the Ulster Cycle and the Táin is that among the oldest stories (which come from Munster no less) the action is actually centered on Tara and not Cruachan (Connacht) this can be seen in: "Conailla Medb míchuru" by the Munster poet Luccreth moccu Chiara (moccu ≠ mac eg. Moccus means "member of tribe" -- in this case the Ciaraí who give their name to modern co. Kerry).

In this account there is no CúChulainn instead Ulster is defended by Fiacc the son of Fergus -- fighting against his own father Fergus mac Roich and his exiles.

Fergus having been seduced by Medb (Maeve)

ar imgeogain ar im tóin mná fria chél fadessin
---
because he preferred the buttocks of a woman to his own people


It's probable that an earlier period that the Plains of Mide (Midhe = Mí eg Meath) and Brega (Breagha -- cognate to Briga eg. Heights) were in pocession of Leinster and that the earliest substratum of the story is to do with fighting between Leinster and Ulster. What important obvious in the later Táin tradition is that the Gálióin were broken up as a unit and spread among the army. Medb wanted them killed (as they would take the glory) but Fergus and Aillil prevailed. This is probably reflective or a rewriting of the story to diminish the import of the Leinstermen (Gálióin).

James Carney in his chapter in "A New History of Ireland..." (mentioned above) talks about a possible rewriting of the story. He mentions extracts form Leinster 10th century genealogies the authors of which obviously had access to early copies of the story then what survives today (circa 1100AD)



conid Ailill iarum do-acht Táin Bó Cuailnge cona tríchait cet Galéan
---
'so that it is Ailill who thereafter drove the driving of the cattle of Cooley with his thirty hundres of Gálióin'


The leinster poems/genealogies talk about Catháer Már (Cathaoir Mór -> Modern Irish) ruling in Tara while Conn ruled at Cenandas na Rig (Cenandas of the King eg. Ceannas Mór -> modern Kells). Of course during the fenian cycle it's mention that Cormac mac Airt was based also in "Cenadas na Rig" before moving to Tara and receiving the kingship. The fact that the site later became a monastry connected to Colmcille (who was a member of Uí Néill) points to it's importance as a site.

Basically you can't rely on the Táin as it's been subject to lots of political rewriting, that and it's Epic saga type stuff (in the vain of the Iliad)

-Paul
(DF41+)

Mikewww
08-25-2013, 04:01 PM
I think your thoughts on U106 and Rhenish Beakers are also interesting but I'll post a question on the P312/U106 Germanic/Italic thread on that because that's where it belongs.

I added some notes on the sequence of things on why I moved some posts over from this thread to the P312/Celtic/U106/Germanic thread. Please see post #85 by Rocca as there is a paragraph there that others responded to that I moved over. Richard's actual post did have some important L21 content so I left it here. I hate to break up a post and just move half of it. I also hate to move responses on the tangent but they really do belong in the other thread. The results aren't always perfect, but I'm trying to do the best I can.

Sorry for this content-free post but I'm just trying clarify so that people go over to the other thread too to delve into the tangents that are more generalized to Celtic/Germanic or P312 or R1b, etc.