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Claudio
10-06-2017, 07:42 PM
I found an old post on the internet where some one had posted comparisons of Ashkenazim,Sephardim,Italkim and East Sicilians all compared on Eurogenes K13 (I think) Sadly I can't seem to transfer it and post it here.. The Italkim scores were quite interesting and I was surprised that the italkim East Med score was slightly higher than both the Ashkenazim and East Sicilian but most surprised that it was almost level on par with the Sephardim..
Does anyone out there have any 23andMe,ancestry DNA, or any other commercial test results for a full Italkim?
Or if not hypothesizes what they think they would score? Would they score more Ashkenazi than a full Sephardim who normally score a small amount of Ashkenazi on commercial tests.
What do you think a full italkim would come up like Results wise on 23andMe etc ?
Any ideas? 🤔

Claudio
10-07-2017, 01:58 PM
I found an old post on the internet where some one had posted comparisons of Ashkenazim,Sephardim,Italkim and East Sicilians all compared on Eurogenes K13 (I think) Sadly I can't seem to transfer it and post it here.. The Italkim scores were quite interesting and I was surprised that the italkim East Med score was slightly higher than both the Ashkenazim and East Sicilian but most surprised that it was almost level on par with the Sephardim..
Does anyone out there have any 23andMe,ancestry DNA, or any other commercial test results for a full Italkim?
Or if not hypothesizes what they think they would score? Would they score more Ashkenazi than a full Sephardim who normally score a small amount of Ashkenazi on commercial tests.
What do you think a full italkim would come up like Results wise on 23andMe etc ?
Any ideas? 🤔

Nobody? lol

Claudio
10-07-2017, 11:09 PM
19194

Claudio
10-07-2017, 11:13 PM
19195

JerryS.
10-08-2017, 12:59 AM
sorry, Ancestry does not show me with any Jew, but several GEDmatch calculators do (Ashkenazi, Iraqi Jew, Romanian Jew......)

Bobbyjohnson88
10-08-2017, 02:17 AM
Very interesting topic, I am studying regarding my Jewish ancestor I will post some results when I can post links

Bobbyjohnson88
10-08-2017, 05:31 AM
South Polish K13

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.5% Estonian_Polish + 12.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.38
2 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.44
3 89.4% Estonian_Polish + 10.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.49
4 86.6% Belorussian + 13.4% Ashkenazi @ 3.5
5 88.5% Belorussian + 11.5% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.5
6 88.6% Belorussian + 11.4% Italian_Jewish @ 3.6
7 78.7% Lithuanian + 21.3% Ashkenazi @ 3.66
8 90.2% Estonian_Polish + 9.8% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.7
9 89.7% Estonian_Polish + 10.3% Sephardic_Jewish @ 3.72
10 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Italian_Jewish @ 3.73
11 84.1% Belorussian + 15.9% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.76
12 90.3% Estonian_Polish + 9.7% Libyan_Jewish @ 3.77
13 85.4% Estonian_Polish + 14.6% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.79
14 87.9% Estonian_Polish + 12.1% West_Sicilian @ 3.8
15 81.4% Lithuanian + 18.6% Algerian_Jewish @ 3.82
16 88.9% Estonian_Polish + 11.1% South_Italian @ 3.84
17 87.9% Belorussian + 12.1% South_Italian @ 3.87
18 89.5% Belorussian + 10.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 3.88
19 88.2% Estonian_Polish + 11.8% East_Sicilian @ 3.89
20 79.6% Belorussian + 20.4% Bulgarian @ 3.9

Cascio
10-08-2017, 12:44 PM
19194

Do we know for certain that these figures are specifically for "Italkim" and not merely Jews in Italy who could be of Sephardi, Ashkenazi or Italki origin?

Cascio
10-08-2017, 12:47 PM
Deleted

Claudio
10-08-2017, 01:40 PM
Do we know for certain that these figures are specifically for "Italkim" and not merely Jews in Italy who could be of Sephardi, Ashkenazi or Italki origin?

I am not sure..
I found these results on some random genetics forum (Apricity or something)
So I cannot verify there legitimacy.
Though I Would love to see the 23andMe results of a full italkim to compare to Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

Aristobule
10-09-2017, 10:42 AM
I am not sure..
I found these results on some random genetics forum (Apricity or something)
So I cannot verify there legitimacy.
Though I Would love to see the 23andMe results of a full italkim to compare to Ashkenazim and Sephardim.

Hi Claudio
I don't have Italkim 23andme results but
you should not focus on 23andme results which tend to be unsettled according the chip they use
, and especially since the V5 CHIP has been launched because it only genotypes 17% common SNP's with the former chips .
I noticed Sephardic and north african jews V5 results have significantely moved in their ancestry compistion since then.

Have you ever seen the Eurogenes K15 data base average results ? which is quiet rich and includes all sort of jewish groupe including italkim

Claudio
10-09-2017, 01:11 PM
Hi Claudio
I don't have Italkim 23andme results but
you should not focus on 23andme results which tend to be unsettled according the chip they use
, and especially since the V5 CHIP has been launched because it only genotypes 17% common SNP's with the former chips .
I noticed Sephardic and north african jews V5 results have significantely moved in their ancestry compistion since then.

Have you ever seen the Eurogenes K15 data base average results ? which is quiet rich and includes all sort of jewish groupe including italkim

Hey thanks for the reply.
No I have not seen the Eurogenes K15 data?
Could you post some examples or a link to data? Any chance you could post those Sephardic results before and after v5 or if not elaborate or list the differences?
Or even post some Sephardic jew 23andMe results as I am curious how much Ashkenazi Sephardic Jews score on average on 23andMe through shared ancestry and I can only find one example.

lukaszM
10-10-2017, 09:42 AM
Shortly I will publish PCA and averages (based on K36 results) with such Jewish samples taken from Behar.

- Sephardim Turkey
- Sephardim Bulgaria
-Moroccan Jews
-Libyan Jews
-Tunisian Jews
-Syrian Jews
- Iraq Jews
-Iran Jews
-Azeri Jews
-Georgian Jews
-Uzbek Jews
-Indian Jews
-Italian Jews (Italkim)
-French Jews
-Dutch Askhenazi (or they are Sephardi?)
-Romanian Askhenazi
-Austrian and German Askhenazi
-Polish Askhenazi
-Belarus and Russian Askhenazi
-Lithuanian and Latvian Akshenazi

Claudio
10-10-2017, 08:10 PM
Shortly I will publish PCA and averages (based on K36 results) with such Jewish samples taken from Behar.

- Sephardim Turkey
- Sephardim Bulgaria
-Moroccan Jews
-Libyan Jews
-Tunisian Jews
-Syrian Jews
- Iraq Jews
-Iran Jews
-Azeri Jews
-Georgian Jews
-Uzbek Jews
-Indian Jews
-Italian Jews (Italkim)
-French Jews
-Dutch Askhenazi (or they are Sephardi?)
-Romanian Askhenazi
-Austrian and German Askhenazi
-Polish Askhenazi
-Belarus and Russian Askhenazi
-Lithuanian and Latvian Akshenazi

Thanks a lot LukaszM
Much appreciated 🙂

lucperri
10-10-2017, 10:12 PM
Claudio,
I wish I could help, but my Dad's side of the family tests as part Ashkenazi on 23andMe and FTDNA. They lived in Southern Italy when the Nazi's found them. I'm pretty sure their ancestors immigrated from elsewhere. Of course, being southern Italian is almost synonymous with "part Greek". I don't think we are Italkim, although we do have the nose.

selectivememri
10-10-2017, 10:15 PM
lucperri, i dont think you should rule out italkim ancestry based on 23andme and ftdna, if i'm correct neither of those testing companies have a category for italian jewish ancestry, so i assume both figuring your father's side of the family as ashkenazi just comes down to it being the best fit....also love the sophisticated euro spelling of luke perry ;)

Claudio
10-10-2017, 11:11 PM
Claudio,
I wish I could help, but my Dad's side of the family tests as part Ashkenazi on 23andMe and FTDNA. They lived in Southern Italy when the Nazi's found them. I'm pretty sure their ancestors immigrated from elsewhere. Of course, being southern Italian is almost synonymous with "part Greek". I don't think we are Italkim, although we do have the nose.

Cheers for the input 🙂
There is also the Sephardic Jewish history in South Italy but they Could have been Italkim! As for the Sephardic Jews of Spain who ventured to North Africa and Turkey instead I have seen some 23andMe results in older threads of North African Sephardic Jews and they always score some Ashkenazi on 23andMe..
I'm just really curious what an Italkim Jew would score on 23andMe?
Especially when one could argue they were partially one of the ancestor seed populations of the Ashkenazi Jews?
Would they score even more Ashkenazi on a 23andMe test than the Sephardics I mentioned earlier??
Who knows?
But I'd love to find out lol

JerryS.
10-10-2017, 11:21 PM
Claudio,
I wish I could help, but my Dad's side of the family tests as part Ashkenazi on 23andMe and FTDNA. They lived in Southern Italy when the Nazi's found them. I'm pretty sure their ancestors immigrated from elsewhere. Of course, being southern Italian is almost synonymous with "part Greek". I don't think we are Italkim, although we do have the nose.

:laugh: you're alright in my book, bro.

Aristobule
10-11-2017, 07:45 AM
Hey thanks for the reply.
No I have not seen the Eurogenes K15 data?
Could you post some examples or a link to data? Any chance you could post those Sephardic results before and after v5 or if not elaborate or list the differences?
Or even post some Sephardic jew 23andMe results as I am curious how much Ashkenazi Sephardic Jews score on average on 23andMe through shared ancestry and I can only find one example.

Enjoy !

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177[/URL]



Roughly 23AND RESULTS

Ashkenazi Jews :
V4 chip 96-97 % ashkenazi ancestry
V5 chip 99%

Pure sephardi (Greece, Turkey)

V4 chip

Middle Eastern 10%
North Africa 18%
Broadly Middle East & North Afrca 8%
Italian 26%
Broadly southern European 12%
Ashkenazi Jewish 13%
Broadly European 13%

V5 chip

Middle Eastern 40%
North Africa 5%
Broadly Middle East & North Afrca 8%
Italian 4%
Broadly southern European 13%
Ashkenazi Jewish 19%
Broadly European 8%
unassigned 3%

Aristobule
10-11-2017, 08:09 AM
Shortly I will publish PCA and averages (based on K36 results) with such Jewish samples taken from Behar.

- Sephardim Turkey
- Sephardim Bulgaria
-Moroccan Jews
-Libyan Jews
-Tunisian Jews
-Syrian Jews
- Iraq Jews
-Iran Jews
-Azeri Jews
-Georgian Jews
-Uzbek Jews
-Indian Jews
-Italian Jews (Italkim)
-French Jews
-Dutch Askhenazi (or they are Sephardi?)
-Romanian Askhenazi
-Austrian and German Askhenazi
-Polish Askhenazi
-Belarus and Russian Askhenazi
-Lithuanian and Latvian Akshenazi


Great !
What about calculator effects on K36, raised up by Davidsky
May you tell us a bit more ?

lukaszM
10-11-2017, 10:04 AM
Great !
What about calculator effects on K36, raised up by Davidsky
May you tell us a bit more ?

Calculator's effect could be only for Ethiopian and Yemen Jews because there were used by him as part of references of NE-African and Arabian components respectively. So I won't use them. But what is one the list in my post above, could be use without problem.

Pylsteen
10-11-2017, 10:15 AM
Shortly I will publish PCA and averages (based on K36 results) with such Jewish samples taken from Behar.


-Dutch Askhenazi (or they are Sephardi?)


Problem with the Dutch jews is that, especially in Amsterdam, there was mixture between Ashkenazi and Sephardi; quite some full Dutch Jews are Ashkenazi in majority, but do have a Sephardic component.
Both the Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities still operate, likely there are also many full Ashkenazi jews, but the Sephardi are likely to have quite some Ashkenazi input, since their community was smaller.

lukaszM
10-11-2017, 10:44 AM
Problem with the Dutch jews is that, especially in Amsterdam, there was mixture between Ashkenazi and Sephardi; quite some full Dutch Jews are Ashkenazi in majority, but do have a Sephardic component.
Both the Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities still operate, likely there are also many full Ashkenazi jews, but the Sephardi are likely to have quite some Ashkenazi input, since their community was smaller.

In Behar paper they were called Dutch Askhenazi so rather not Sephardi as you said.

Claudio
10-11-2017, 03:29 PM
Enjoy !

docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19c_bZjUV_RouKyGyLHmMDw57WwAVabXFJOaso_gcuRE/edit#gid=1872836177[/URL]



Roughly 23AND RESULTS

Ashkenazi Jews :
V4 chip 96-97 % ashkenazi ancestry
V5 chip 99%

Pure sephardi (Greece, Turkey)

V4 chip

Middle Eastern 10%
North Africa 18%
Broadly Middle East & North Afrca 8%
Italian 26%
Broadly southern European 12%
Ashkenazi Jewish 13%
Broadly European 13%

V5 chip

Middle Eastern 40%
North Africa 5%
Broadly Middle East & North Afrca 8%
Italian 4%
Broadly southern European 13%
Ashkenazi Jewish 19%
Broadly European 8%
unassigned 3%

Thanks..
Pretty significant changes between v4 and v5!

Claudio
10-11-2017, 04:37 PM
Problem with the Dutch jews is that, especially in Amsterdam, there was mixture between Ashkenazi and Sephardi; quite some full Dutch Jews are Ashkenazi in majority, but do have a Sephardic component.
Both the Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities still operate, likely there are also many full Ashkenazi jews, but the Sephardi are likely to have quite some Ashkenazi input, since their community was smaller.

I was gonna say what about English Jews?
But that being said the English Jewish history in London almost mirrors exactly what happened in Holland Amsterdam.
Rich Separdi Crypto Jew merchants set up communities in both Holland(the Portuguese synagogue) and London(Bevis Marks Synague) and these first separdi's helped migrate and established the first Ashkenazi communities in both Amsterdam and London with a shared community at first only later divisions occurring when further influx of Ashkenazi migration came setting up there separate communities.
I wonder though what the Genetic makeup would of been like of these first Spanish/Portuguese Crypto jews who mixed with first Ashkenazi's communities who settled in london and Amsterdam?
The original Separdi jews of 600 years earlier of al andulus Islamic Berber/Arab spain, and leading into the time of the later spanish reconquest of Spain would have been a mixture of middle eastern Jewish,Italian Jewish, mixed with over 700 years of admix with islamic spain period with Arab Arabians/Arab North African Berbers and native Iberians but after the re-conquest and the later alhambra decree the remaining Separdi New Christians who spent the next 100 years as converso's first in spain and then a further 100 years in portugal slowly lost there ladino language and mostly there religion.
I was actually in Amsterdam in september this year (up to no good lol) but I took the time to visit Amsterdams Jewish historical quarter (Portuguese Synagogue,Jewish history museum,Holocaust museum,Anne Frank house,etc.)
and I remember reading in the museum that the first separdi communities setup by these Crypto jew merchants had to learn everthing concerning there religion and language from scratch.
(I can't remmember if they re-learned everything from the Ashkenazi's or from Eastern Sephardic jew immigrants from Turkey/Greece north Africa I really can't remmember) but the reason I bring it up is the fact that they lost recollection of so much of there history (even taking gentile spanish/Portuguese names) that I imagine that they probably gained quite a large amount of iberian southern european admix in those last 200 years as New Christians in spain and Portugal leading up to establishing those earlier mentioned first communities of london and Amsterdam.
Any thoughts?

Michelstaedter
11-27-2017, 10:03 PM
I was gonna say what about English Jews?
But that being said the English Jewish history in London almost mirrors exactly what happened in Holland Amsterdam.
Rich Separdi Crypto Jew merchants set up communities in both Holland(the Portuguese synagogue) and London(Bevis Marks Synague) and these first separdi's helped migrate and established the first Ashkenazi communities in both Amsterdam and London with a shared community at first only later divisions occurring when further influx of Ashkenazi migration came setting up there separate communities.
I wonder though what the Genetic makeup would of been like of these first Spanish/Portuguese Crypto jews who mixed with first Ashkenazi's communities who settled in london and Amsterdam?
The original Separdi jews of 600 years earlier of al andulus Islamic Berber/Arab spain, and leading into the time of the later spanish reconquest of Spain would have been a mixture of middle eastern Jewish,Italian Jewish, mixed with over 700 years of admix with islamic spain period with Arab Arabians/Arab North African Berbers and native Iberians but after the re-conquest and the later alhambra decree the remaining Separdi New Christians who spent the next 100 years as converso's first in spain and then a further 100 years in portugal slowly lost there ladino language and mostly there religion.
I was actually in Amsterdam in september this year (up to no good lol) but I took the time to visit Amsterdams Jewish historical quarter (Portuguese Synagogue,Jewish history museum,Holocaust museum,Anne Frank house,etc.)
and I remember reading in the museum that the first separdi communities setup by these Crypto jew merchants had to learn everthing concerning there religion and language from scratch.
(I can't remmember if they re-learned everything from the Ashkenazi's or from Eastern Sephardic jew immigrants from Turkey/Greece north Africa I really can't remmember) but the reason I bring it up is the fact that they lost recollection of so much of there history (even taking gentile spanish/Portuguese names) that I imagine that they probably gained quite a large amount of iberian southern european admix in those last 200 years as New Christians in spain and Portugal leading up to establishing those earlier mentioned first communities of london and Amsterdam.
Any thoughts?

Some good observations here, but I would like to return to the topic of the Italkim.

The "pure" Italkim were the original Jewish population of the Roman Empire, and, as such, their dispersion has historically been confined to the city of Rome, although there were other centers of them in southern Italy (especially Calabria and Sicily). Expulsions later spread them further north into the peninsula, even as far north as Venice. Incidentally, the term "Italian Jew" is just as ambiguous as term "Dutch Jew".

The city of Venice is a perfect example of this. Just like Amsterdam, Venice was home to multiple Jewish ethnicities. The founding or "core" population, like in a vast majority of northeastern Italy, was in fact Ashkenazi. One only need look at some of the most common Jewish surnames in northeastern Italy: Luzzatto, from Lausitz, Morpurgo, from Marburg, Ottolenghi, from Ettlingen, Tedesco (German) Polacco (Polish) and numerous others to realize this.

Ashkenazi Jews had been living in Venice since early medieval times, and were later joined by Sephardic refugees from the Iberian Peninsula and later Italkim migrants from the south. Just as in Amsterdam, the different communities remained separate, each with their own synagogue. My own family, who were Ashkenazi Jews from Venice, worshiped specifically at the Canton synagogue there, which was a small "private" Ashkenazi rite synagogue. Yiddish was at one time spoken in Venice, but died out by the 18th century.

In terms of 23andme, the best I can give you is a second cousin of mine, whose great grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew from Venice. Her score on 23andme (V4) is 93% Ashkenazi, which is a bit on the low side but well within the expected range of somebody who is fully Ashkenazic.

For a "true" Italkim I would imagine your best bet would be somebody from the Italkim community of Rome. I have not yet come across somebody with such ancestry on 23andme, although I have come across some people of partial Calabrian Jewish descent. They show up zero percent Ashkenazi on 23andme. The onl my other Italian Jew I know of is another connection of mine on 23andme whose grandfather was a Jew from Modena, in northern Italy. She shows up as about 21% Ashkanzi.

Hope this helps.

Pylsteen
11-27-2017, 11:08 PM
and I remember reading in the museum that the first separdi communities setup by these Crypto jew merchants had to learn everthing concerning there religion and language from scratch.
(I can't remmember if they re-learned everything from the Ashkenazi's or from Eastern Sephardic jew immigrants from Turkey/Greece north Africa I really can't remmember) but the reason I bring it up is the fact that they lost recollection of so much of there history (even taking gentile spanish/Portuguese names) that I imagine that they probably gained quite a large amount of iberian southern european admix in those last 200 years as New Christians in spain and Portugal leading up to establishing those earlier mentioned first communities of london and Amsterdam.
Any thoughts?

Yes they had to learn the traditions anew, first around 1597 they got an Ashkenazi rabbi Uri Halevi from Emden, who was familiar with the traditions; afterwards they got the sephardic rabbi Joseph Pardo from Venice (though born in Salonica) (I am descended from this Pardo, and possibly too from the Halevi rabbi).

A few of my Jewish lines go directly from Italy to Amsterdam; especially the Livorno line is purely Sephardic, but the Venice line also harbours names like Spira, which to me sounds more Ashkenazi, and Zarfati, which means French Jew, maybe they were descended from the medieval French jews. Indeed, Italy has besides the Italkim, Sephardim and some Ashkenazim (especially in the north).

Michelstaedter
11-28-2017, 11:41 AM
Yes they had to learn the traditions anew, first around 1597 they got an Ashkenazi rabbi Uri Halevi from Emden, who was familiar with the traditions; afterwards they got the sephardic rabbi Joseph Pardo from Venice (though born in Salonica) (I am descended from this Pardo, and possibly too from the Halevi rabbi).

A few of my Jewish lines go directly from Italy to Amsterdam; especially the Livorno line is purely Sephardic, but the Venice line also harbours names like Spira, which to me sounds more Ashkenazi, and Zarfati, which means French Jew, maybe they were descended from the medieval French jews. Indeed, Italy has besides the Italkim, Sephardim and some Ashkenazim (especially in the north).

You are certainly right about the Livorno branches as the Livorno Jewish community was almost entirely Sephardic. Later there would even be arrivals of North African descent in Livorno, most notably Elijah Benamozegh.

Spira/Shapiro/Speyer and Zarfati are Ashkenazic names and your ancestors bearing those names would almost certainly have belonged to the Venetian-Ashkenazi community in that city. I am curious where your other Dutch Jewish lines come from?

Met vriendelijke groet

Nick

(Want Nederlands mag ook toch!)

Pylsteen
11-28-2017, 12:16 PM
Spira/Shapiro/Speyer and Zarfati are Ashkenazic names and your ancestors bearing those names would almost certainly have belonged to the Venetian-Ashkenazi community in that city. I am curious where your other Dutch Jewish lines come from?



From Sephardi, outside of Italy a few directly from Lisbon, some who are not clear, though certainly Iberian; from Ashkenazi lines, Frankfurt a/M, Mannheim, Heidelberg, Strassburg, Metz, Speyer, a few Polish, but many just popping out of nowhere in Amsterdam. Not sure therefore if one can genetically define a Dutch Ashkenazi.

eolien
11-28-2017, 01:23 PM
Some good observations here, but I would like to return to the topic of the Italkim.

The "pure" Italkim were the original Jewish population of the Roman Empire, and, as such, their dispersion has historically been confined to the city of Rome, although there were other centers of them in southern Italy (especially Calabria and Sicily). Expulsions later spread them further north into the peninsula, even as far north as Venice. Incidentally, the term "Italian Jew" is just as ambiguous as term "Dutch Jew".

The city of Venice is a perfect example of this. Just like Amsterdam, Venice was home to multiple Jewish ethnicities. The founding or "core" population, like in a vast majority of northeastern Italy, was in fact Ashkenazi. One only need look at some of the most common Jewish surnames in northeastern Italy: Luzzatto, from Lausitz, Morpurgo, from Marburg, Ottolenghi, from Ettlingen, Tedesco (German) Polacco (Polish) and numerous others to realize this.

Ashkenazi Jews had been living in Venice since early medieval times, and were later joined by Sephardic refugees from the Iberian Peninsula and later Italkim migrants from the south. Just as in Amsterdam, the different communities remained separate, each with their own synagogue. My own family, who were Ashkenazi Jews from Venice, worshiped specifically at the Canton synagogue there, which was a small "private" Ashkenazi rite synagogue. Yiddish was at one time spoken in Venice, but died out by the 18th century.

In terms of 23andme, the best I can give you is a second cousin of mine, whose great grandmother was an Ashkenazi Jew from Venice. Her score on 23andme (V4) is 93% Ashkenazi, which is a bit on the low side but well within the expected range of somebody who is fully Ashkenazic.

For a "true" Italkim I would imagine your best bet would be somebody from the Italkim community of Rome. I have not yet come across somebody with such ancestry on 23andme, although I have come across some people of partial Calabrian Jewish descent. They show up zero percent Ashkenazi on 23andme. The onl my other Italian Jew I know of is another connection of mine on 23andme whose grandfather was a Jew from Modena, in northern Italy. She shows up as about 21% Ashkanzi.

Hope this helps.


A lot of big claims here which are historically a bit misleading. In any case, Sarfati/Zarfati is common in both Ashkenaz and Sefaradic surnames but i implies an origin from Northern France.

Michelstaedter
11-28-2017, 01:54 PM
A lot of big claims here which are historically a bit misleading. In any case, Sarfati/Zarfati is common in both Ashkenaz and Sefaradic surnames but i implies an origin from Northern France.

Which claims here are historically misleading exactly?

Nive1526
11-28-2017, 02:30 PM
I have noticed that some of the judicial and church records from 12th and 13th century Padova and other Northern Italian cities frequently contain latinized names that end on -mann, like Hermannus or Ardemannus.
Is it possible that some of them are of Jewish origin or did Germanic-sounding Jewish names appear later?
A related genealogist believes that my line traces back to an "Ardemann" family that first appeared in Western Austria around 1450.
My haplogroup is J-M92, which appears both in Jews and Italians in single-digit frequencies.

Michelstaedter
11-29-2017, 12:32 PM
I have noticed that some of the judicial and church records from 12th and 13th century Padova and other Northern Italian cities frequently contain latinized names that end on -mann, like Hermannus or Ardemannus.
Is it possible that some of them are of Jewish origin or did Germanic-sounding Jewish names appear later?
A related genealogist believes that my line traces back to an "Ardemann" family that first appeared in Western Austria around 1450.
My haplogroup is J-M92, which appears both in Jews and Italians in single-digit frequencies.

I am not sure about that. I do know that many Ashkenazim would take up he names of the towns they had settled i.e Conegliano (incidentally this was Lorenzo da Ponte's original last name). Still others would Italianize the place names of their ancestors, such as with the last name Ottolenghi (Ettlingen, near the Mainz, Speyer, Worms area). I do know that Paodova did have a large Jewish population at one point--I think the Ramchal spent much time there.

One thing that is interesting about the German Jewish last names in Italy is that they are al last always Italianate. Unlike in Eastern Europe, where there was still a vast proponderance of last names that retained their German origin such as Goldstein, Feinberg, Pressler and the like, almost all the northern Italian Jewish names seemed to have turned into Italian versions of Germanic place names. This might have to do with the fact that Yiddish was retained as the common tongue in most of Eastern Europe, whereas it died out quickly in Italy, for reasons I am unsure about...

eolien
11-29-2017, 11:02 PM
I am not sure about that. I do know that many Ashkenazim would take up he names of the towns they had settled i.e Conegliano (incidentally this was Lorenzo da Ponte's original last name). Still others would Italianize the place names of their ancestors, such as with the last name Ottolenghi (Ettlingen, near the Mainz, Speyer, Worms area). I do know that Paodova did have a large Jewish population at one point--I think the Ramchal spent much time there.

One thing that is interesting about the German Jewish last names in Italy is that they are al last always Italianate. Unlike in Eastern Europe, where there was still a vast proponderance of last names that retained their German origin such as Goldstein, Feinberg, Pressler and the like, almost all the northern Italian Jewish names seemed to have turned into Italian versions of Germanic place names. This might have to do with the fact that Yiddish was retained as the common tongue in most of Eastern Europe, whereas it died out quickly in Italy, for reasons I am unsure about...

Have you considered the possibility that they were not Yiddish speakers at all? Moreover many of your cited surnames were taken in the 18th century. It is very possible that these communities hardly had a fixed surname at that time.

Michelstaedter
11-30-2017, 01:25 AM
Have you considered the possibility that they were not Yiddish speakers at all? Moreover many of your cited surnames were taken in the 18th century. It is very possible that these communities hardly had a fixed surname at that time.

You're totally right. Obviously those were post-Napoleanic last names.

I think what I was trying to say was that Jewish migration into Italy had stopped well before then, but it was a rather uneducated statement...

Nive1526
11-30-2017, 11:10 AM
Not at all. Both of your statements already helped me. My problem is that I trace back to people who had a remotely Jewish surname about 500 years ago, but they are mentioned exclusively as and in Christian sources. If they were Jewish before, they must have converted somewhere between the adoption of Jiddish surnames and 1450.
My question is at which point in time did Jews change to Jiddish surnames that are not based on their place of residence. Both in Italy and beyond.

Cascio
11-30-2017, 07:14 PM
I have noticed that some of the judicial and church records from 12th and 13th century Padova and other Northern Italian cities frequently contain latinized names that end on -mann, like Hermannus or Ardemannus.
Is it possible that some of them are of Jewish origin or did Germanic-sounding Jewish names appear later?
A related genealogist believes that my line traces back to an "Ardemann" family that first appeared in Western Austria around 1450.
My haplogroup is J-M92, which appears both in Jews and Italians in single-digit frequencies.

A word of caution.

From Langobard and Frankish times, Germanic names were common among Christians in Italy, especially in Northern Italy.

Claudio
12-16-2017, 07:07 PM
This seems like it might be the right place to post. My father is Italian from latium region from just outside Rome.
My Sister got her 23andme results the other day and after phasing with my British part Ashkenazi mother all British and Ashkenazi Jewish was assigned to mothers side. All italian and 0.4 Middle eastern 0.1 East Asian Yakut Was assigned to my (deceased) Italian fathers side. My sister received over 1000 DNA relatives on mother's side yet received only 30 DNA relatives on my fathers side? 10 of which are Italian and 20 which are to are surprise full Ashkenazi??
Does this just imply that my father Shared some Italian/Southern European/Middle Eastern/or Yakut ancestry with his full Ashkenazi DNA relatives?
Or that my italian father actually had some Jewish Ancestry?

eolien
12-17-2017, 11:39 AM
This seems like it might be the right place to post. My father is Italian from latium region from just outside Rome.
My Sister got her 23andme results the other day and after phasing with my British part Ashkenazi mother all British and Ashkenazi Jewish was assigned to mothers side. All italian and 0.4 Middle eastern 0.1 East Asian Yakut Was assigned to my (deceased) Italian fathers side. My sister received over 1000 DNA relatives on mother's side yet received only 30 DNA relatives on my fathers side? 10 of which are Italian and 20 which are to are surprise full Ashkenazi??
Does this just imply that my father Shared some Italian/Southern European/Middle Eastern/or Yakut ancestry with his full Ashkenazi DNA relatives?
Or that my italian father actually had some Jewish Ancestry?


I dont trust so much these kind of matches, i would transfer to gedmatch and see the cM distance and choromosome region with ashkenazi samples. For sure there is something but difficult to trace back usually.

SlytherclawRavenpuff
03-02-2018, 04:05 AM
subcribing to this thread. my dad whos family is romaniote but some of the branches are said to have come from italy originally if you find more info on italkim jews i would like to know more

coffeeprince
04-30-2018, 11:22 PM
Has anyone seen any new DNA results concerning Italkim since the last post in this thread? Very intrigued to see their results and how they would plot.