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mala-zaba
10-07-2017, 09:16 PM
Hello, I read a lot this week to understand the migration and clades of the result/grouping of the test of my father-in-law. Being grouped by J2-M172 FTDNA group to j2b2 Z575>PH1648>Z42941>Z42983>BigY-B12464, I'm trying to find information about PH1648 and subclasses like what year the subclasses split and in which geographical region. For now, I have not found any information on the internet regarding PH1648/Z2453. If I'm not mistaken, PH1648 is equivalent to J2b2b2 since Z1827 is J2b2?

My father-in-law was born in Croatia, but I reach back his paternal ancestry to Hungary and then to Slovakia (c.1820). He was born in Croatia, but I go back his paternal ancestry to Hungary and then to Slovakia (c.1820). They are all Jews, except my father-in-law. I know the existence of the Balkan cluster M205, but his DYS392=11 and not 12.

So if I synthesizing my reading, the migration would be part of the Middle East, then Iran/Zagros or Caucasus to follow L283 in the Caspian steppe to split into PH1648 and subclass to migrate with Slave culture to Russia/Ukraine/Poland ?

Thank you for your help.

lgmayka
10-08-2017, 01:14 AM
YFull puts Z42941 on the same level as Z42942. Here is YFull's J-Z42942 haplotree (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z42942/). YFull estimates the clade to be only 2700 years old, but it includes entries from Qatar and Omsk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omsk_Oblast).

Generalissimo
10-08-2017, 02:13 AM
The migration would be part of the Middle East, then Iran/Zagros or Caucasus to follow L283 in the Caspian steppe.

J2b2 has never been recorded in any Copper/Bronze Age samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So...

mala-zaba
10-08-2017, 03:03 PM
YFull puts Z42941 on the same level as Z42942. Here is YFull's J-Z42942 haplotree. YFull estimates the clade to be only 2700 years old, but it includes entries from Qatar and Omsk.

ID:YF11065 (BigY-B12464) would be Hungarian according to J2-M172 FTDNA group. I will be happy when the analysis completed to confirm this.

mala-zaba
10-08-2017, 03:20 PM
J2b2 has never been recorded in any Copper/Bronze Age samples from the Pontic-Caspian steppe. So...

You have right, no sample found in Pontic-Caspian steppe, but on Eupedia

The most likely hypothesis is that J2b2a1 (L283) penetrated into the Pontic Steppe region during the Neolithic or Chalcolithic period, by crossing the Caucasus from western Iran, then migrated to the Volga-Ural region, where it was absorbed by the R1a-Z93 tribes in the Early Bronze Age. As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago. Other J2b lineages could have ended up in the Balkans during a number of Steppe invasions from the Bronze Age until the Middle Ages.

The oldest J2b2-L283 sample recovered among ancient DNA samples is a Late Bronze Age (1700-1500 BCE) individual from southern Croatia (Mathieson et al. 2017). His genome possessed about 30% of Steppe admixture and 15% of Eastern Hunter-Gatherer, which suggest a recent arrival from the Steppe. He was accompanied by a woman with similar admixtures, and both possessed typical Pontic-Caspian Steppe mtDNA (I1a1 and W3a). The timing, location and admixtures of these samples fit with the Illyrian colonisation of the Dinaric Alps, which is thought to have taken place between 1600 and 1100 BCE. The Illyrians may have been late Steppe migrants from the Volga region that were forced out of the Steppe by the invasion of the northern R1a tribes who established the Srubna culture (from 2000 BCE). Through a founding effect, J2b2-L283 lineages might have considerably increased their original frequency after reaching Illyria.

J-L283 is not J-Z42942, but I wonder if the hypothesis could not be the same as J-L283.

Trojet
10-08-2017, 07:12 PM
You have right, no sample found in Pontic-Caspian steppe, but on Eupedia


J-L283 is not J-Z42942, but I wonder if the hypothesis could not be the same as J-L283.

Those are just theories from Eupedia's owner, Maciamo, and should not be taken as facts. Furthermore, he seems to suggest all "J2b" branches co-migrated to Balkans/Europe since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/).

The only J2b branch that so far has proven to be in Balkans/Europe since at least the Bronze Age is J2b2a1-L283 (J-L283) and actually has a decent diversity there, while being almost non-existent outside Europe. Considering the oldest J2b-M102* in aDNA has been found in Western Iran ca. 10,000 ybp, he could very well be right that the trajectory of the migration for J-L283 was Western Iran > Caucuses > Steppe (or around the Black Sea) > Balkans. And as mentioned, in an ancient DNA context, we already have J-L283 in Bronze Age Croatia and one in Bronze Age Armenia.

The other J2b branches are still a question mark as to when they arrived to Europe and what migration was involved, IMO.
For example, your subclade, J2b-Z42942 has a match from Qatar at YFull with a TMRCA of 2700 ybp. While J2b1-M205 in aDNA is consistently being found in the Levant area.

BakodiP
10-08-2017, 07:44 PM
ID:YF11065 (BigY-B12464) would be Hungarian according to J2-M172 FTDNA group. I will be happy when the analysis completed to confirm this.
He's Hungarian Ashkenazi. There are a lot of Eastern European Jewish J2b* in the J-M172 project.

mala-zaba
10-08-2017, 08:00 PM
Those are just theories from Eupedia's owner, Maciamo, and should not be taken as facts. Furthermore, he seems to suggest all "J2b" branches co-migrated to Balkans/Europe since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/).

The only J2b branch that so far has proven to be in Balkans/Europe since at least the Bronze Age is J2b2a1-L283 (J-L283) and actually has a decent diversity there, while being almost non-existent outside Europe. Considering the oldest J2b-M102* in aDNA has been found in Western Iran ca. 10,000 ybp, he could very well be right that the trajectory of the migration for J-L283 was Western Iran > Caucuses > Steppe (or around the Black Sea) > Balkans. And as mentioned, in an ancient DNA context, we already have J-L283 in Bronze Age Croatia and one in Bronze Age Armenia.

The other J2b branches are still a question mark as to when they arrived to Europe and what migration was involved, IMO.
For example, your subclade, J2b-Z42942 has a match from Qatar at YFull with a TMRCA of 2700 ybp. While J2b1-M205 in aDNA is consistently being found in the Levant area.

Thanks Trojet for your info. So I guess I have to wait a few more years to find out more about this J2b-Z42942.

mala-zaba
10-08-2017, 08:13 PM
He's Hungarian Ashkenazi. There are a lot of Eastern European Jewish J2b* in the J-M172 project.


I try to get some info on their Facebook page, but it did not really work. He's more likely that my step-father is Ashkenazi than Sephardi I imagine.

DNADiver
05-13-2020, 08:03 PM
apparently his ancestry migrated to Croatia from the middle east

Polska
05-13-2020, 09:36 PM
Filler...