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View Full Version : New study - Y-DNA analysis of Jats Hindu/Sikh/Muslim hot off the press



bmoney
10-12-2017, 12:25 PM
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5611447/pdf/fgene-08-00121.pdf

It also became evident that the Jats did not have a unique set of genes, but shared an underlying genetic unity with several other ethnic communities in the Indian subcontinent.

Most interesting for me is that Jats carry the IVC/Zagros Farmer associated haplogroup L at 37% vs 7-15% frequency seen in the rest of India and carry haplogroup R at 29% vs Hindu Brahmins who carry this at much higher %ages 41% R1a1 vs 8% Haplogroup L. R1a1 peaks in Eastern Indian Brahmin lines UP Brahmin 68%, West Bengal Brahmin at 72% and Bihari Brahmins at 61%. http://web.vu.lt/rstc/a.pazeraite/files/2014/10/The-Indian-origin-of-paternal-haplogroup-R1a1-20082a1.pdf

I believe this is because Jats have strong CHG/Zagros Farmer IVC lineage as they moved from Sindh/Baluchistan to Punjab more recently. They are one of the few communities not dominated paternally by the R1a bringing Brahmins and were Vedicized and placed into the Hindu caste system relatively more recently: Grewal, J. S. (1998), The Sikhs of the Punjab, Cambridge University Press, p. 5, ISBN 978-0-521-63764-0, retrieved 12 November 2011 Quote: "... the most numerous of the agricultural tribes (in the Punjab) were the Jats. They had come from Sindh and Rajasthan along the river valleys, moving up, displacing the Gujjars and the Rajputs to occupy culturable lands. (page 5)"

Haplogroup L (36.8%)
This is the largest haplogroup in the Jat sample population. It is present in the Indian population at an overall frequency of about 7–15% (Basu et al., 2003; Cordaux et al., 2004). Genetic studies suggest that this may be one of the original haplogroups of the creators of Indus Valley Civilization (McElreavey and Quintana-Murci, 2005; Sengupta et al., 2006). It has a frequency of about 28% in western Pakistan and Baluchistan, from where the agricultural creators of this civilization emerged (Qamar et al., 2002). The origins of this haplogroup can be traced to the rugged and mountainous Pamir Knot region in Tajikistan (Wells, 2007).

Haplogroup R (28.5%)
This haplogroup originated in north Asia about 27,000 years ago (ISOGG, 2017). It is one of the most common haplogroups in Europe, with its branches reaching 80% of the population in some regions. One branch is believed to have originated in the Kurgan culture, known to be the first speakers of the Indo-European languages and responsible for the domestication of the horse (Smolenyak and Turner, 2004). From somewhere in central Asia, some descendants of the man carrying the M207 mutation on the Y chromosome headed south to arrive in India about 10,000 years ago (Wells, 2007). This is one of the largest haplogroups in India and Pakistan. Of its key subclades, R2 is observed especially in India and central Asia.

Thoughts?

A Norfolk L-M20
10-12-2017, 12:42 PM
For personal reasons, I wish that they had tested below the haplogroup level. I really would have liked to see which sub clades of L were found - I'm guessing downstream of L1a. But it's still a great report, and thank you for sharing.

bmoney
10-12-2017, 01:14 PM
For personal reasons, I wish that they had tested below the haplogroup level. I really would have liked to see which sub clades of L were found - I'm guessing downstream of L1a. But it's still a great report, and thank you for sharing.

Thanks!, yes that would have been great, also knowing what the r1a and r2 split is, as R2 is much older than R1a in India and pre-Indo-European.

The Jatt L would most probably be L1a and L1c: L1a and L1c-M357 are found at 24% among Balochis, L1a and L1c are found at 8% among the Dravidian-speaking Brahui, L1c is found at 25% among Kalash, L1c is found at 15% among Burusho.

I'm guessing your L is a more ancient split, probably from the L Urheimat (Caucasus/Iran)

Further to my link to the IVC: The greatest concentration of Haplogroup L-M20 is along the Indus River in Pakistan where the Indus Valley Civilization flourished during 3300–1300 BC with its mature period between 2600–1900 BCE. L-M357's highest frequency and diversity is found in the Balochistan province at 28%[10] with a moderate distribution among the general Pakistani population at 11.6% (Firasat 2007)). It is also found in Afghanistan ethnic counterparts as well, such as with the Pashtuns and Balochis. L-M357 is found frequently among Burusho (approx. 12% (Firasat 2007)) and Pashtuns (approx. 7% (Firasat 2007)).

A Norfolk L-M20
10-12-2017, 03:45 PM
Thanks!, yes that would have been great, also knowing what the r1a and r2 split is, as R2 is much older than R1a in India and pre-Indo-European.

The Jatt L would most probably be L1a and L1c: L1a and L1c-M357 are found at 24% among Balochis, L1a and L1c are found at 8% among the Dravidian-speaking Brahui, L1c is found at 25% among Kalash, L1c is found at 15% among Burusho.

I'm guessing your L is a more ancient split, probably from the L Urheimat (Caucasus/Iran)

Further to my link to the IVC: The greatest concentration of Haplogroup L-M20 is along the Indus River in Pakistan where the Indus Valley Civilization flourished during 3300–1300 BC with its mature period between 2600–1900 BCE. L-M357's highest frequency and diversity is found in the Balochistan province at 28%[10] with a moderate distribution among the general Pakistani population at 11.6% (Firasat 2007)). It is also found in Afghanistan ethnic counterparts as well, such as with the Pashtuns and Balochis. L-M357 is found frequently among Burusho (approx. 12% (Firasat 2007)) and Pashtuns (approx. 7% (Firasat 2007)).

We are talking slightly different nomenclature when you mention L1c but I understand. Under the older nomenclature, my L1b would have been L2. Yes, my SNP SK1414 (L1b2c) was first recorded in a Balochi speaker in Makran, Pakistan. It's also been found in Druze.

khanabadoshi
10-12-2017, 05:44 PM
We are talking slightly different nomenclature when you mention L1c but I understand. Under the older nomenclature, my L1b would have been L2. Yes, my SNP SK1414 (L1b2c) was first recorded in a Balochi speaker in Makran, Pakistan. It's also been found in Druze.

Interestingly, I am of supposed Baloch-descent paternally in a subclade shared with a Druze.

parasar
10-13-2017, 12:40 AM
Interestingly, I am of supposed Baloch-descent paternally in a subclade shared with a Druze.

Ha! Long lost connections.
Maybe there is something to the Druze = Druhyu after all!!

Yadu, Turvasu, Druhyu, Anu and Puru - 5 Vedic tribes.
The Anu are supposed to be Aryans.
The Puru the main/core Indic lines of Indo-Gangetic plains.
The Yadu of Gujarat, Jaisalmer, Mathura, etc.
The Turvasu are boundary folk such as the Shak - Tura traditional enemies of the Arya.
The Druhyu? They are also often mentioned with the Anu, but kind of disappear from the accounts.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-13-2017, 01:56 AM
There are good amount of R1a1a jatts, especially in Haryana, I get them as my matches on both gedmatch and 23 and me. I wonder where it came from.

bmoney
10-13-2017, 04:41 AM
There are good amount of R1a1a jatts, especially in Haryana, I get them as my matches on both gedmatch and 23 and me. I wonder where it came from.

With the Indo-Europeans, who brought the Indo-Aryan languages to North/West/East India. Punjabi is a IA language.

R1a1a also was successful in Dravidian south India but wasn't able to achieve language shift there like it did in the rest of South Asia, though got a good amount of their loan words in via Brahminic Sanskrit.

It was just interesting to me that the Jats, who are considered the representative population of Indo-Aryans, are actually more paternally related to the IVC then any other caste in south Asia except the original Baloch/Brahui and the closely related Sindhis. The most Indo-European y-dna castes found so far are West Bengal Brahmins, Sindhi Mohanna and Terai Hindus from Nepal

And were just talking y-dna here, autosomal is a different story. Most Punjabis will cluster together autosomally despite their y-dna lineages

noman
10-13-2017, 04:41 AM
Jatt R2a here.

bmoney
10-13-2017, 04:45 AM
Jatt R2a here.

Interesting, Chauhan is one of the most famous Rajput lineages in India

noman
10-13-2017, 05:55 AM
Interesting, Chauhan is one of the most famous Rajput lineages in India

Yep!
Chauhan could be found in Rajput, Gujjar, and Jatt.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-13-2017, 04:40 PM
There’s J2 and J1 jatts as well, both are gills.

noman
10-13-2017, 05:57 PM
There’s J2 and J1 jatts as well, both are gills.

Can confirm. I have a lot of J2 matches.

RCO
10-13-2017, 07:29 PM
One Indian J1 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/

MonkeyDLuffy
10-13-2017, 07:42 PM
One Indian J1 here https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-ZS3684/

there was a Punjabi jatt user here Paul gill who was J1a1.

thejkhan
08-21-2018, 10:33 PM
Most interesting for me is that Jats carry the IVC/Zagros Farmer associated haplogroup L at 37% vs 7-15% frequency seen in the rest of India and carry haplogroup R at 29% vs Hindu Brahmins who carry this at much higher %ages 41% R1a1 vs 8% Haplogroup L. R1a1 peaks in Eastern Indian Brahmin lines UP Brahmin 68%, West Bengal Brahmin at 72% and Bihari Brahmins at 61%. http://web.vu.lt/rstc/a.pazeraite/files/2014/10/The-Indian-origin-of-paternal-haplogroup-R1a1-20082a1.pdf


It is L1a1 that is strongly associated with IVC/Zagros Farmer. The Jat L subclade is L1a2 (correct me if I'm wrong) which is most likely a later arrival from Central Asia as they score high Steppe with most calculators -- maybe L1a2 is associated with the Kushans and Hepthalites?

bmoney
08-22-2018, 02:38 AM
It is L1a1 that is strongly associated with IVC/Zagros Farmer. The Jat L subclade is L1a2 (correct me if I'm wrong) which is most likely a later arrival from Central Asia as they score high Steppe with most calculators -- maybe L1a2 is associated with the Kushans and Hepthalites?

Thats my exact thinking.

L1a1 is a secondary/minor/tag-along lineage compared to R2 and J2, the primarly IVC/Zagros farmer lineages of the South Asian branch/

L1a2 came from the Pamir Knot region probably with the Kushans

Raza94
09-02-2018, 04:55 AM
Are Jatts mostly L1a2? Are there any jatts who are R1a1?

Jatt1
09-02-2018, 06:33 AM
Are Jatts mostly L1a2? Are there any jatts who are R1a1?

L1a2 and R1a are the top two haplogroups among Jatts.

aaronbee2010
09-02-2018, 04:49 PM
L1a2 and R1a are the top two haplogroups among Jatts.

This is correct. I looked at my Jatt male relatives on 23andme and 27/41 (65.9%) were either L or R1a. Makes me feel a little bit left out :P

Raza94
09-03-2018, 04:38 AM
L1a2 and R1a are the top two haplogroups among Jatts.

Ahhh okay. All the jatts I matched with on 23&me were L so I was just wondering.

Sorry to sound like a total idiot but how are R1a and R-Y6 related? Or are they not related at all?

Sorry I am a total noob at this

Jatt1
09-03-2018, 07:00 AM
Ahhh okay. All the jatts I matched with on 23&me were L so I was just wondering.

Sorry to sound like a total idiot but how are R1a and R-Y6 related? Or are they not related at all?

Sorry I am a total noob at this

Yes they are related to you at L657 sublade, R-Y4 is a branch of L657 and R-Y6 is a branch of R-Y4. This link should be helpful. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y6/

Raza94
09-03-2018, 08:06 AM
Yes they are related to you at L657 sublade, R-Y4 is a branch of L657 and R-Y6 is a branch of R-Y4. This link should be helpful. https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y6/

Cool thank you man!

vintage_sky
09-03-2018, 01:18 PM
R2a jatt also but we descend from the Pakhreel clan which is Rajput, inducive of the Azad Kashmir 'aal' Jats. We are not an ethnic jatt clan. I know that much but apparently my terminal SNP Y1331 is over 6000 years old and associated with Zagros.

bored
09-03-2018, 02:05 PM
R2a jatt also but we descend from the Pakhreel clan which is Rajput, inducive of the Azad Kashmir 'aal' Jats. We are not an ethnic jatt clan. I know that much but apparently my terminal SNP Y1331 is over 6000 years old and associated with Zagros.

You said you are Rajput from Jammu?

aaronbee2010
09-05-2018, 12:39 PM
R2a jatt also but we descend from the Pakhreel clan which is Rajput, inducive of the Azad Kashmir 'aal' Jats. We are not an ethnic jatt clan. I know that much but apparently my terminal SNP Y1331 is over 6000 years old and associated with Zagros.

According to jatland.com, my gotra claim descent from Jammu Rajputs. If that's true then I don't have a Jatt paternal lineage. Do you know of any other R2a Jatts on this forum other than us two, and if so does their clan claim descent from AJK Rajputs?

I don't know much about my terminal SNP (Y1383) and only two men on YFull have it (one is from Gujarat and one is from Punjab (Pakistan). R-Y1383 comes under R-SK2142, which is observed a lot (including subclades) in the Arabian peninsula (YFull and r2dna.org) so my lineage also traces to the Zagros mountains within the last 6900 years. Our lineages probably entered South Asia at around the same time.

bored
09-05-2018, 01:03 PM
According to jatland.com, my gotra claim descent from Jammu Rajputs. If that's true then I don't have a Jatt paternal lineage. Do you know of any other R2a Jatts on this forum other than us two, and if so does their clan claim descent from AJK Rajputs?

I don't know much about my terminal SNP (Y1383) and only two men on YFull have it (one is from Gujarat and one is from Punjab (Pakistan). R-Y1383 comes under R-SK2142, which is observed a lot (including subclades) in the Arabian peninsula (YFull and r2dna.org) so my lineage also traces to the Zagros mountains within the last 6900 years. Our lineages probably entered South Asia at around the same time.

R2 seems big in this area and adjoining pahari areas. Iím from jammu and R2 as well but not Rajput or Jat.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-05-2018, 02:26 PM
According to jatland.com, my gotra claim descent from Jammu Rajputs. If that's true then I don't have a Jatt paternal lineage. Do you know of any other R2a Jatts on this forum other than us two, and if so does their clan claim descent from AJK Rajputs?

I don't know much about my terminal SNP (Y1383) and only two men on YFull have it (one is from Gujarat and one is from Punjab (Pakistan). R-Y1383 comes under R-SK2142, which is observed a lot (including subclades) in the Arabian peninsula (YFull and r2dna.org) so my lineage also traces to the Zagros mountains within the last 6900 years. Our lineages probably entered South Asia at around the same time.

R2 is one of the highest occurring Halogroup among Tarkhans as well followed by J2/J1, not to mention all tarkhan samples we have seem to score identical to pahari people. R1a is minority so far.

Sapporo
09-05-2018, 04:08 PM
According to jatland.com, my gotra claim descent from Jammu Rajputs. If that's true then I don't have a Jatt paternal lineage. Do you know of any other R2a Jatts on this forum other than us two, and if so does their clan claim descent from AJK Rajputs?

I don't know much about my terminal SNP (Y1383) and only two men on YFull have it (one is from Gujarat and one is from Punjab (Pakistan). R-Y1383 comes under R-SK2142, which is observed a lot (including subclades) in the Arabian peninsula (YFull and r2dna.org) so my lineage also traces to the Zagros mountains within the last 6900 years. Our lineages probably entered South Asia at around the same time.

For all the Jatt haplogroup date I have collected, there are the following R2's:

1. 5th cousin Tomar (unsure if they are Hindu Jat or Jatt Sikh based on first name)
2. Unidentified gotra/clan Haryana/UP Jat (HRP0131)
3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)

It's not as common as L1a2 or R1a1a but it's one of the more common minority haplogroups among Jatt Sikhs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Jatt1
09-05-2018, 05:04 PM
For all the Jatt haplogroup date I have collected, there are the following R2's:

1. 5th cousin Tomar (unsure if they are Hindu Jat or Jatt Sikh based on first name)
2. Unidentified gotra/clan Haryana/UP Jat (HRP0131)
3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)

It's not as common as L1a2 or R1a1a but it's one of the more common minority haplogroups among Jatt Sikhs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?pli=1#gid=0

These generally are R1a

3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)


This generally is L1a2

5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)


These generally are R2

4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)
Please note, Bains is a major Jatt clan like Sidhu and Dhaliwal.

MonkeyDLuffy
09-05-2018, 05:09 PM
These generally are R1a

3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)


This generally is L1a2

5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)


These generally are R2

4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)
Please note, Bains is a major Jatt clan like Sidhu and Dhaliwal.

Also Bains is found the most in Ropar area, present day SAS nagar district.

Raza94
09-05-2018, 05:20 PM
These generally are R1a

3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)


This generally is L1a2

5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)


These generally are R2

4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)
Please note, Bains is a major Jatt clan like Sidhu and Dhaliwal.

What about Bajwa? Are they mostly R1a?

Jatt1
09-05-2018, 06:28 PM
Also Bains is found the most in Ropar area, present day SAS nagar district.

Ropar may be second to Hoshiarpur, in Hoshiarpur there are too many Bains villages, but Bains are found allover though, just too many of them.

aaronbee2010
09-06-2018, 01:54 AM
Hey its funny you guys mention those R2 Jatt clans.I had a look at my R2 Jatt matches on 23andme and I have three R2 Jatt matches, one R-M479 (M124-, likely R2b) Goraya Jatt and two R-L295 (L294-) Jatts (One of them is a Sidhu Jatt and the other one is a Bains Jatt just like you guys said!).

The only thing is that I cant find another M124+, L295- Jatt like myself however this is probably due to my paternal lineage possibly not being Jatt.


For all the Jatt haplogroup date I have collected, there are the following R2's:

1. 5th cousin Tomar (unsure if they are Hindu Jat or Jatt Sikh based on first name)
2. Unidentified gotra/clan Haryana/UP Jat (HRP0131)
3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)

It's not as common as L1a2 or R1a1a but it's one of the more common minority haplogroups among Jatt Sikhs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Hey would I be able to PM you and send you my details for that spreadsheet? Would really appreciate it.

Also 23andme recently had a paternal haplogroup reassignment for some of its customers so it may be worth having another look at your own 23andme matches on that spreadsheet.


R2 seems big in this area and adjoining pahari areas. Iím from jammu and R2 as well but not Rajput or Jat.

R2 is common for a minority haplogroup in Rajputs, and also West Punjab (its not common in East Punjab though). While R2 in India is mainly observed in SE India, there is another R2 cluster of decent size around North Pakistan, where you see most R2 (L295-) men today.


R2 is one of the highest occurring Halogroup among Tarkhans as well followed by J2/J1, not to mention all tarkhan samples we have seem to score identical to pahari people. R1a is minority so far.

That makes sense. Considering Tarkhans have a close relation to North Pakistanis It would make sense that Tarkhans would have similar Y-DNA to North Pakistanis as well which should mean relatively high levels of R2 in Tarkhans as you stated. I ordered an FTDNA (67 Y-STRs) to see who my closest Y-DNA matches are. Considering I might not have a Jatt paternal lineage and no other R2a (L295-) Jatt clans exist as far as I know, my results may be interesting.

Sapporo
09-06-2018, 04:36 AM
These generally are R1a

3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)


This generally is L1a2

5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)


These generally are R2

4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)
Please note, Bains is a major Jatt clan like Sidhu and Dhaliwal.

Sandhu is also L1a2 dominant and Gill is heavily L1a2 alongside R1a1a. Most of the Dhillon I've found have also been L1a2 or some type of J.

Sapporo
09-06-2018, 04:44 AM
Hey would I be able to PM you and send you my details for that spreadsheet? Would really appreciate it.

Also 23andme recently had a paternal haplogroup reassignment for some of its customers so it may be worth having another look at your own 23andme matches on that spreadsheet.

Yes, you can pm me your details or share with me on 23andMe. It's up to you. I check 23andMe every few weeks for new relatives (to update the sheet with) or haplogroup reassignments. I'm actually eagerly awaiting my maternal 1st cousin's (Mann/Sidhu) 23andMe results to see my maternal Y-DNA.

Jatt1
09-06-2018, 06:06 AM
Sandhu is also L1a2 dominant and Gill is heavily L1a2 alongside R1a1a. Most of the Dhillon I've found have also been L1a2 or some type of J.

Those deviations are due to adoption etc., Sandhu are basically or should I say originally only R1a1a, also Gill and Dhillon are basically L1a2.

Sapporo
09-06-2018, 06:58 AM
Those deviations are due to adoption etc., Sandhu are basically or should I say originally only R1a1a, also Gill and Dhillon are basically L1a2.

Wait, how are you so sure Sandhu are originally only R1a1a and that Gill and Dhillon are basically L1a2? Only 2 out of like 15 male Sandhus I have data for were R1a1a. 9 were L1a2 (2 of them were Muslim) and 1 was a L from FTDNA that I am unsure is L1a2 or L1a1. I also have two unrelated Sandhu matches showing up as L-M20 on FTDNA. Although, I think one of them may be a Sandhu I also share with on 23andMe.

aaronbee2010
09-06-2018, 07:01 AM
Yes, you can pm me your details or share with me on 23andMe. It's up to you. I check 23andMe every few weeks for new relatives (to update the sheet with) or haplogroup reassignments. I'm actually eagerly awaiting my maternal 1st cousin's (Mann/Sidhu) 23andMe results to see my maternal Y-DNA.

Thank you, I've PMed my email address to you.

I'm also curious about my mothers paternal line (Nahal) so I've been trying to persuade my mothers brother to get his test from 23andme. He says he wants to but doesn't get around to it.

Jatt1
09-06-2018, 07:05 AM
Wait, how are you so sure Sandhu are originally only R1a1a and that Gill and Dhillon are basically L1a2? Only 2 out of like 15 male Sandhus I have data for were R1a1a. 9 were L1a2 (2 of them were Muslim) and 1 was a L from FTDNA that I am unsure is L1a2 or L1a1. I also have two unrelated Sandhu matches showing up as L-M20 on FTDNA. Although, I think one of them may be a Sandhu I also share with on 23andMe.

These are tribal people originally thus unmixed, and the majority Haplogroup is generally retained unless females are free to do whatever they want to. You can see this trend even among tribals of today, in tribal dna studies.

Sapporo
09-06-2018, 07:20 AM
These are tribal people originally thus unmixed, and the majority Haplogroup is generally retained unless females are free to do whatever they want to. You can see this trend even among tribals of today, in tribal dna studies.
Females don't affect paternal ancestry and Y-DNA though. There is no clear pattern or consistency to Jatt Sikh mt-DNA in contrast to Y-DNA.

I think in terms of two of the largest clans/gotras, Sidhu and Sandhu have different preferences. One seem to be almost exclusively (R1a1a) while the other is dominated by L1a2 with some minor R1a1a.

Jatt1
09-06-2018, 07:43 AM
Interesting, Chauhan is one of the most famous Rajput lineages in India

I think it is not Chauhan but Chou Hun originally?

Jatt1
09-06-2018, 07:58 AM
Females don't affect paternal ancestry and Y-DNA though. There is no clear pattern or consistency to Jatt Sikh mt-DNA in contrast to Y-DNA.

I think in terms of two of the largest clans/gotras, Sidhu and Sandhu have different preferences. One seem to be almost exclusively (R1a1a) while the other is dominated by L1a2 with some minor R1a1a.

Not only that they do, they basically control it, and this is just one of the many ways they do that, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15233-News-about-Rurikid-Y-DNA-Ingegerd-cheated-on-Yaroslav-I.

Adoption is nothing new either.

Not only Sandhu but Sandher a similar sounding surname is also mostly R1a1a. Sandhu surname may be based on Sindh(Indus) River, so yes, there may be different haplogroups that are going by Sandhu name. I don't think we yet have yDNA of all kinds of Sandhu Jatts to say much with surety about this surname but my instincts are that they are mostly R1a1a.

AmjadPak
09-06-2018, 09:23 PM
Those deviations are due to adoption etc., Sandhu are basically or should I say originally only R1a1a, also Gill and Dhillon are basically L1a2.

According to Glossary of tribes and castes of Punjab and north west frontier complied around the beginning of 20th century by the British officiers, the largest clan of Punjab Jatts numerically was Sidhu which was closely followed by Sandhu, both of them were concentrated in villages of of Lahore and Amritsar districts. So when one talks about the real frequency of a particular Y lineage in Jatts they must take into account the numerical strength of the clans and not just occurrence of a particular lieange among random clans which might have insignificant numers in terms of over all Jatt popluation of central Punjab. It is quite possible that combined numerical strength of just Sidhu and Sandhu clans surpasses the combined numerical strength of dozens of other Jatt clans in central and eastern Punjab put together.

Sapporo
09-06-2018, 11:39 PM
Not only that they do, they basically control it, and this is just one of the way they do that, https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?15233-News-about-Rurikid-Y-DNA-Ingegerd-cheated-on-Yaroslav-I.

Adoption is nothing new either.

Not only Sandhu but Sandher a similar sounding surname is also mostly R1a1a. Sandhu surname may be based on Sindh(Indus) River, so yes, there may be different haplogroups that are going by Sandhu name. I don't think we yet have yDNA of all kinds of Sandhu Jatts to say much with surety about this surname but my instincts are that they are mostly R1a1a.

Haha, I don't buy that argument. That's assuming females will cheat in many or most instances. Anyways, adoption is certainly possible but you aren't providing any concrete evidence that Sandhu is or was originally R1a1a. Why are you so insistent on it anyways? Per the Mahal paper, L1a2 is slightly more common or just as common as R1a1a among Jatts anyways. Imo, itís clear that there were likely a few founder paternal ancestors (L1a2 and R1a1a being the main ones followed by Q) among Jatts with the rest being assimilated and mixed in.

I am unsure of the true relationship between Sandhar and Sandhu but I only have 2 individual Sandher Y-DNA and I've never heard anyone note that Sandhu and Sandher are the same clan/gotra in real life. It's more likely that Sandher is an offshoot or sub-clan of Sandhu like Brar is to Sidhu.

Jatt1
09-07-2018, 05:57 AM
Haha, I don't buy that argument. That's assuming females will cheat in many or most instances. Anyways, adoption is certainly possible but you aren't providing any concrete evidence that Sandhu is or was originally R1a1a. Why are you so insistent on it anyways? Per the Mahal paper, L1a2 is slightly more common or just as common as R1a1a among Jatts anyways. Imo, it’s clear that there were likely a few founder paternal ancestors (L1a2 and R1a1a being the main ones followed by Q) among Jatts with the rest being assimilated and mixed in.

I am unsure of the true relationship between Sandhar and Sandhu but I only have 2 individual Sandher Y-DNA and I've never heard anyone note that Sandhu and Sandher are the same clan/gotra in real life. It's more likely that Sandher is an offshoot or sub-clan of Sandhu like Brar is to Sidhu.

To know true relationship between Sandhu, Sandher, Sandhar, Sindhu and Sidhu we probably need to go back 1500 ybp, as no one kept the records so it is basically impossible to know now, but names sound close to each other, it probably have something to do either with Indus River or Sindh Province, have anybody ever tried to find Jatt R1a1a relationship to people of Sindh who are rich in R1a1a?

You just need one mistake and once outsider becomes the insider of a clan and if given the opportunity to flourish it will become a significant part of that clan overtime. And some of the Sandhus you have possibly is a related bunch thus doesn't represent the Sandhu clan properly.

Sapporo
09-07-2018, 09:58 AM
To know true relationship between Sandhu, Sandher, Sandhar, Sindhu and Sidhu we probably need to go back 1500 ybp, as no one kept the records so it is basically impossible to know now, but names sound close to each other, it probably have something to do either with Indus River or Sindh Province, have anybody ever tried to find Jatt R1a1a relationship to people of Sindh who are rich in R1a1a?

You just need one mistake and once outsider becomes the insider of a clan and if given the opportunity to flourish it will become a significant part of that clan overtime. And some of the Sandhus you have possibly is a related bunch thus doesn't represent the Sandhu clan properly.

I can certainly see that. The names are close enough to one another and to the regional/historical name of Sindh so there may be a conceivable relation.

Regarding outsiders, that may be possible but I'm not going to go down that road unless there is concrete evidence to suggest so. Finally, the Sandhus I have Y-DNA for includes two unrelated Muslim Jatts from Pakistan (one is in Harappa) and one of the original Harappa participants (first 5) named Simranjit. 5 out of the remaining 6 are distant relatives of mine on 23andMe and unrelated to one another. The only related ones (brother and sister pair) have now been clearly marked and reduced the L1a2 count by one. For the remaining 8 to all be L1a2 and not be related to one another suggests to me that L1a2 is likely to be dominant among Sandhu's.

On a separate note, the only two R1a1a Sandhu on there are from FTDNA and collected by Dr_McNinja.

Sapporo
09-07-2018, 10:15 AM
EDIT: Double post

Jatt1
09-07-2018, 06:30 PM
I can certainly see that. The names are close enough to one another and to the regional/historical name of Sindh so there may be a conceivable relation.

Regarding outsiders, that may be possible but I'm not going to go down that road unless there is concrete evidence to suggest so. Finally, the Sandhus I have Y-DNA for includes two unrelated Muslim Jatts from Pakistan (one is in Harappa) and one of the original Harappa participants (first 5) named Simranjit. 5 out of the remaining 6 are distant relatives of mine on 23andMe and unrelated to one another. The only related ones (brother and sister pair) have now been clearly marked and reduced the L1a2 count by one. For the remaining 8 to all be L1a2 and not be related to one another suggests to me that L1a2 is likely to be dominant among Sandhu's.

On a separate note, the only two R1a1a Sandhu on there are from FTDNA and collected by Dr_McNinja.

I have come across some haplogroups for Sandhu, they are 1 R1a1a, 1 J M172, 1 L-M357, 1 L-M27.

I don't think we have enough information on them, we need at least 1 sample from each Sandhu village to know for sure what haplogroup majority of them belong to.

prashantvaidwan
09-07-2018, 06:44 PM
I have come across some haplogroups for Sandhu, they are 1 R1a1a, 1 J M172, 1 L-M357, 1 L-M27.

I don't think we have enough information on them, we need at least 1 sample from each Sandhu village to know for sure what haplogroup majority of them belong to.

What is your opinion on certain bard stories claiming origin of many Jatt clans from some Rajput noble as Sidhu/barad from bhattis?

Jatt1
09-07-2018, 07:03 PM
What is your opinion on certain bard stories claiming origin of many Jatt clans from some Rajput noble as Sidhu/barad from bhattis?

I think it is other way around. Rajputs probably originally were some Jatts, Gujjars and also some south Indians like Rashtrakuta people. Sorry, don't know much about it so can't say anything much about it with certainty, Rajputs only have little if any importance in Punjab. But one thing is for sure, if Jatts were from Rajputs then today Jatts had lower NE Euro than Rajputs, and we know for certain that that is not the case at all.

parasar
09-07-2018, 07:22 PM
I think it is other way around. Rajputs probably originally were some Jatts, Gujjars and also some south Indians like Rashtrakuta people. Sorry, don't know much about it so can't say anything much about it with certainty, Rajputs only have little if any importance in Punjab. But one thing is for sure, if Jatts were from Rajputs then today Jatts had lower NE Euro than Rajputs, and we know for certain that that is not the case at all.

It is both.
Jatt precedes Rajput so a royal Jatt scion would be counted among Rajputs. In the Turko-Mughal period the term Rajput gained prestige and currency and if you lost that esteem for some reason, you were downgraded to a Jatt, etc. With the rise of the Sikhs that balance was to change somewhat whereby in some areas Jatt became as or more prestigious. On average I would say that not counting the gharana/kothi/privy purse types, Jatts were more prosperous than Rajputs by the end of the British period.

midichlorian
09-07-2018, 07:23 PM
Wait so this says that haplogroup L is indicative of Zagrosian farmers, but I thought J2 was? Did the Zagrosian farmers have more than two dominant y haplogroups?

parasar
09-07-2018, 07:36 PM
I think it is not Chauhan but Chou Hun originally?

As per their early records Chahmans were Gurjar Brahmans (Bijolia Inscription http://asijaipurcircle.nic.in/Bijolia%20inscription%20parsvnath%20temp.html).
The earliest records of the Chahmans is from Broach, Gujarat area (Hansot, Navasari).

Some think Chahman=Vahman which would make them of Persian origin (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vahman-Ardashir)

bmoney
09-08-2018, 01:29 AM
Wait so this says that haplogroup L is indicative of Zagrosian farmers, but I thought J2 was? Did the Zagrosian farmers have more than two dominant y haplogroups?

The IVC peoples probably were J2, L, G, H (local) etc an assortment and this mostly came via the Zagros component

in terms of ultimate origins of the haplogroup J2 and L, it probably originated with ancient farmers with basal Eurasian ancestry

Sapporo
09-08-2018, 11:53 AM
I have come across some haplogroups for Sandhu, they are 1 R1a1a, 1 J M172, 1 L-M357, 1 L-M27.

I don't think we have enough information on them, we need at least 1 sample from each Sandhu village to know for sure what haplogroup majority of them belong to.

I definitely see your point but I think it would be quite presumptuous to assume all of the Sandhu individuals that are L1a2 and I've collected data from are all from the same village/pind. Especially, considering Sandhu is one of the top 2-3 most common Jatt Sikh clans/gotras alongside Sidhu. If you're really curious, I could go ahead and message some of them and find out their origins.

Anyways, regarding Sandhu, my best guess is they will have a significant L1a2 percentage with a significant or somewhat similar R1a1a proportion with the rest being mixed of various haplogroups found in Jatts. So far Sidhu seem to be almost exclusively R1a1a but I'm sure L1a2 and other Y-DNA such as J2, R2, L1a1, etc. exist among them.

bmoney
09-09-2018, 03:23 AM
The IVC peoples probably were J2, L, G, H (local) etc an assortment and this mostly came via the Zagros component

in terms of ultimate origins of the haplogroup J2 and L, it probably originated with ancient farmers with basal Eurasian ancestry

Forgot R2

Rahuls77
09-09-2018, 09:10 AM
I think it is other way around. Rajputs probably originally were some Jatts, Gujjars and also some south Indians like Rashtrakuta people. Sorry, don't know much about it so can't say anything much about it with certainty, Rajputs only have little if any importance in Punjab. But one thing is for sure, if Jatts were from Rajputs then today Jatts had lower NE Euro than Rajputs, and we know for certain that that is not the case at all.

Even this may be in error, as it is highly probable, and as a friend has said, Indian Rajputs are 'empowered Indic classes', who benefited from a hunnic/scythian tumult in the Indian society through the first Me AD.

Sapporo
09-22-2018, 03:23 AM
Update:

My maternal 1st cousin (Mann/Sidhu) had his 23andMe V5 results came in. Lots of new Jatt Sikh matches that my parents and myself didn't get in relative finder (will add them to the spreadsheet). More importantly, his haplogroup data:

Y-DNA: L1a1 (L-M27)
mtDNA: U7

So, it seems I was slightly off. A decent chunk of the L from the Mahal study is probably L1a1 rather than L1a2 (still should be overwhelmingly majority). I'll post some of his GEDMatch results later when I convert it from 23andMe V5 to V3.

https://wilhelmhgenealogy.wordpress.com/convert-23andme-to-myheritage-and-gedmatch-classic/

@Jatt1

Do you mind sharing some of the info of your L1a1 relative with me via pm so I can add them to the spreadsheet? Now, I'm curious if the other L-M22 Mann I found on 23andMe is actually L1a1 rather than L1a2. This individual is a 5th cousin to both my father and my maternal 1st cousin. I'll see if 23andMe updated his subclade or not.

edit: They haven't. Some individuals including that Mann are still only designated L-M22. By the way, I found 2 more Sandhu individuals through my cousin's matches and both are L (1 is L1a2 and another was labeled L-M2481). I also found a few more L1a1 Jatt Sikhs (Deol, Basi, Taggar) so there are 6-7 of them now along with the 3-4 Jatt Sikhs only designated L-M2481 (so designated L1a but not L1a1 or L1a2 specifically?) .

pegasus
09-22-2018, 11:31 AM
What is your opinion on certain bard stories claiming origin of many Jatt clans from some Rajput noble as Sidhu/barad from bhattis?

If your talking about that Rajputs that have classically dominated parts of Northern India, they are a Marwari type pop with extra Steppe but significantly AASI shifted compared to say the Rajasthan/Haryana Jatt,. Some of their peculiar customs suggests a late Hunnic influence. Overall they seem to form a tight group akin to how the Habsburgs, Capetian and Bourbons dominated Western Europe for a long time. I don't think are some ancient Vedic related group. As someone mentioned with rise of Sikhs post the Mughal Era, you had Jat Sikhs who filed that niche in Punjab.

Sapporo
09-22-2018, 11:47 AM
Some of my Mann/Sidhu 1st cousin's GEDMatch results (converted V5 to V3):



Harappa:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.5
2 S-Indian 29.44
3 NE-Euro 12.38
4 Caucasian 9.59
5 Mediterranean 3.97
6 American 1.77
7 SE-Asian 1.29
8 NE-Asian 1.17
9 Siberian 0.92
10 SW-Asian 0.59
11 W-African 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 3.66
2 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.78
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.8
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.99
5 haryana-jatt (harappa) 6.05
6 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.31
7 punjabi (harappa) 6.33
8 kashmiri (harappa) 6.66
9 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.7
10 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.81
11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 7.04
12 nepalese-a (xing) 7.05
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 7.6
14 sindhi (harappa) 7.81
15 up-muslim (harappa) 7.94
16 bhatia (harappa) 9
17 pathan (hgdp) 9.1
18 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 9.46
19 sindhi (hgdp) 9.77
20 burusho (hgdp) 9.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.7% french (hgdp) @ 2.28
2 91.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.4% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.42
3 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% british (1000genomes) @ 2.44
4 91.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.7% hungarian (behar) @ 2.47
5 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% n-european (xing) @ 2.5
6 91.9% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.1% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.53
7 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% n-european (xing) @ 2.54
8 54.4% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 45.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.54
9 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% utahn-white (hapmap) @ 2.55
10 89.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.7% hungarian (behar) @ 2.56
11 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.58
12 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% spaniard (behar) @ 2.59
13 91.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.5% slovenian (xing) @ 2.6
14 89.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.5% slovenian (xing) @ 2.62
15 90% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.62
16 89.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.1% british (1000genomes) @ 2.62
17 91.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.9% puerto-rican (1000genomes) @ 2.63
18 89.7% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 10.3% hungarian (behar) @ 2.63
19 91.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.2% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.65
20 91.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.6% italian (hgdp) @ 2.66




Eurogenes K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 42.41
2 West_Asian 33.89
3 North_Atlantic 10.04
4 Baltic 8.19
5 Amerindian 2.17
6 Siberian 1.36
7 East_Asian 1.29
8 East_Med 0.34
9 Red_Sea 0.22
10 Sub-Saharan 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi_Jat 3.76
2 Pathan 8.45
3 Sindhi 9.58
4 Burusho 10.76
5 Kalash 11.7
6 Brahmin_UP 14.63
7 Gujarati 16
8 Afghan_Pashtun 17.46
9 Kshatriya 17.5
10 Bangladeshi 22.13
11 Balochi 22.33
12 Brahui 23.16
13 Makrani 23.51
14 Tadjik 24.35
15 Dharkar 25.52
16 Afghan_Tadjik 25.6
17 Kanjar 26.52
18 Velamas 29.11
19 Uttar_Pradesh 29.4
20 Kurumba 29.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.2% Punjabi_Jat + 2.8% French_Basque @ 3.19
2 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Hezhen @ 3.23
3 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Xibo @ 3.24
4 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Japanese @ 3.25
5 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Tu @ 3.25
6 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Naxi @ 3.28
7 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% East_Greenlander @ 3.28
8 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Yizu @ 3.28
9 95.4% Punjabi_Jat + 4.6% Aghan_Hazara @ 3.29
10 97.5% Punjabi_Jat + 2.5% Mongolian @ 3.29
11 97.2% Punjabi_Jat + 2.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.3
12 97.6% Punjabi_Jat + 2.4% Tibeto-Burman_Burmese @ 3.3
13 97% Punjabi_Jat + 3% Kirgiz @ 3.31
14 96.1% Punjabi_Jat + 3.9% Uygur @ 3.31
15 98.2% Punjabi_Jat + 1.8% Tujia @ 3.32
16 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Chukchi @ 3.32
17 98.2% Punjabi_Jat + 1.8% Miaozu @ 3.33
18 97.1% Punjabi_Jat + 2.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.33
19 98.1% Punjabi_Jat + 1.9% Oroqen @ 3.34
20 98.3% Punjabi_Jat + 1.7% She @ 3.34



SNP count is around 187k for Harappa and 182k for Eurogenes K13

aaronbee2010
09-22-2018, 07:57 PM
My maternal 1st cousin (Mann/Sidhu) had his 23andMe V5 results came in. Lots of new Jatt Sikh matches that my parents and myself didn't get in relative finder (will add them to the spreadsheet). More importantly, his haplogroup data:

Y-DNA: L1a1 (L-M27)
mtDNA: U7

Noice :D

Raza94
09-23-2018, 01:10 AM
Some of my Mann/Sidhu 1st cousin's GEDMatch results (converted V5 to V3):



Harappa:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baloch 38.5
2 S-Indian 29.44
3 NE-Euro 12.38
4 Caucasian 9.59
5 Mediterranean 3.97
6 American 1.77
7 SE-Asian 1.29
8 NE-Asian 1.17
9 Siberian 0.92
10 SW-Asian 0.59
11 W-African 0.38

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 punjabi-jatt-sikh (harappa) 3.66
2 singapore-indian-c (sgvp) 5.78
3 punjabi-brahmin (harappa) 5.8
4 kashmiri-pandit (reich) 5.99
5 haryana-jatt (harappa) 6.05
6 punjabi-khatri (harappa) 6.31
7 punjabi (harappa) 6.33
8 kashmiri (harappa) 6.66
9 punjabi-jatt-muslim (harappa) 6.7
10 punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) 6.81
11 kashmiri-pahari (harappa) 7.04
12 nepalese-a (xing) 7.05
13 punjabi-arain (xing) 7.6
14 sindhi (harappa) 7.81
15 up-muslim (harappa) 7.94
16 bhatia (harappa) 9
17 pathan (hgdp) 9.1
18 gujarati-muslim (harappa) 9.46
19 sindhi (hgdp) 9.77
20 burusho (hgdp) 9.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 91.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.7% french (hgdp) @ 2.28
2 91.6% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.4% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.42
3 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% british (1000genomes) @ 2.44
4 91.3% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.7% hungarian (behar) @ 2.47
5 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% n-european (xing) @ 2.5
6 91.9% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.1% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.53
7 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% n-european (xing) @ 2.54
8 54.4% haryana-jatt (harappa) + 45.6% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) @ 2.54
9 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% utahn-white (hapmap) @ 2.55
10 89.3% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.7% hungarian (behar) @ 2.56
11 89.8% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.2% utahn-white (1000genomes) @ 2.58
12 91.7% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.3% spaniard (behar) @ 2.59
13 91.5% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.5% slovenian (xing) @ 2.6
14 89.5% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.5% slovenian (xing) @ 2.62
15 90% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10% orcadian (hgdp) @ 2.62
16 89.9% kashmiri-pahari (harappa) + 10.1% british (1000genomes) @ 2.62
17 91.1% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.9% puerto-rican (1000genomes) @ 2.63
18 89.7% punjabi-ramgarhia (harappa) + 10.3% hungarian (behar) @ 2.63
19 91.8% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.2% spaniard (1000genomes) @ 2.65
20 91.4% singapore-indian-c (sgvp) + 8.6% italian (hgdp) @ 2.66




Eurogenes K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 South_Asian 42.41
2 West_Asian 33.89
3 North_Atlantic 10.04
4 Baltic 8.19
5 Amerindian 2.17
6 Siberian 1.36
7 East_Asian 1.29
8 East_Med 0.34
9 Red_Sea 0.22
10 Sub-Saharan 0.09

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Punjabi_Jat 3.76
2 Pathan 8.45
3 Sindhi 9.58
4 Burusho 10.76
5 Kalash 11.7
6 Brahmin_UP 14.63
7 Gujarati 16
8 Afghan_Pashtun 17.46
9 Kshatriya 17.5
10 Bangladeshi 22.13
11 Balochi 22.33
12 Brahui 23.16
13 Makrani 23.51
14 Tadjik 24.35
15 Dharkar 25.52
16 Afghan_Tadjik 25.6
17 Kanjar 26.52
18 Velamas 29.11
19 Uttar_Pradesh 29.4
20 Kurumba 29.9

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 97.2% Punjabi_Jat + 2.8% French_Basque @ 3.19
2 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Hezhen @ 3.23
3 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Xibo @ 3.24
4 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Japanese @ 3.25
5 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% Tu @ 3.25
6 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Naxi @ 3.28
7 97.7% Punjabi_Jat + 2.3% East_Greenlander @ 3.28
8 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Yizu @ 3.28
9 95.4% Punjabi_Jat + 4.6% Aghan_Hazara @ 3.29
10 97.5% Punjabi_Jat + 2.5% Mongolian @ 3.29
11 97.2% Punjabi_Jat + 2.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 3.3
12 97.6% Punjabi_Jat + 2.4% Tibeto-Burman_Burmese @ 3.3
13 97% Punjabi_Jat + 3% Kirgiz @ 3.31
14 96.1% Punjabi_Jat + 3.9% Uygur @ 3.31
15 98.2% Punjabi_Jat + 1.8% Tujia @ 3.32
16 97.9% Punjabi_Jat + 2.1% Chukchi @ 3.32
17 98.2% Punjabi_Jat + 1.8% Miaozu @ 3.33
18 97.1% Punjabi_Jat + 2.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.33
19 98.1% Punjabi_Jat + 1.9% Oroqen @ 3.34
20 98.3% Punjabi_Jat + 1.7% She @ 3.34



SNP count is around 187k for Harappa and 182k for Eurogenes K13

How were you able to convert from V5 to V3?

Raza94
09-23-2018, 05:15 AM
So I converted mine and this was the difference between the two:

MDLP K16 v5:

# Population Percent
1 Indian 54.48
2 Caucasian 23.67
3 Steppe 7.00
4 SouthEastAsian 4.22
5 Australian 4.04
6 Siberian 2.99
7 NearEast 1.59
8 NorthEastEuropean 1.16

1 Gujjar_Punjab @ 5.803017
2 Sindhi_Sindh @ 6.841821
3 Jatt_Muslim @ 7.284512
4 Meena_Rajasthan @ 7.333642
5 Jatt_Pahari @ 7.436093
6 Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir @ 7.642800
7 Pathan_Punjab @ 8.761565
8 Kshatriya_India @ 9.348858
9 Brahmin_India @ 9.396464
10 Burusho_Pakistan @ 9.842859
11 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu @ 10.216638
12 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh @ 10.995768
13 Vaish_Odisha @ 11.207556
14 Meghawal_Gujarat @ 11.758006
15 GujaratiA_Gujarat @ 12.124769
16 Kalash_Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa @ 12.943550
17 Jew_Mumbai @ 13.637907
18 Jew_Cochin @ 14.081803
19 Balochi_Baluchistan @ 14.212347
20 Brahui_Baluchistan @ 14.258526

v3:
# Population Percent
1 Indian 52.33
2 Caucasian 19.40
3 Steppe 9.49
4 SouthEastAsian 5.28
5 Siberian 2.77
6 NearEast 2.30
7 Australian 2.16
8 NorthEastEuropean 2.09
9 Amerindian 1.29
10 Neolithic 1.17


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Jatt_Muslim @ 2.914793
2 Brahmin_India @ 4.862192
3 Burusho_Pakistan @ 5.013893
4 Kshatriya_India @ 6.142229
5 Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir @ 6.320632
6 Jatt_Pahari @ 6.868000
7 Meena_Rajasthan @ 7.174900
8 Vaish_Odisha @ 7.510009
9 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh @ 7.538482
10 Gujjar_Punjab @ 7.763913
11 Sindhi_Sindh @ 7.838473
12 Pathan_Punjab @ 8.661748
13 Meghawal_Gujarat @ 10.048042
14 GujaratiA_Gujarat @ 10.616253
15 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu @ 10.804688
16 Jatt_Haryana @ 11.634295
17 Jew_Cochin @ 12.673909
18 Jew_Mumbai @ 13.580567
19 Srivastava_India @ 13.603160
20 Thakur_Maharashtra @ 13.981433

Harrapa v5:
1 Baloch 37.86
2 S-Indian 34.96
3 Caucasian 13.85
4 NE-Euro 4.37
5 SW-Asian 3.07
6 Siberian 1.99
7 NE-Asian 1.34
8 E-African 1.16

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 4.137795
2 punjabi_harappa @ 6.080265
3 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.583158
4 up-muslim_harappa @ 7.050639
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 7.075553
6 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 7.357648
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.368240
8 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.245827
9 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 8.384118
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.498767
11 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.607004
12 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.511598
13 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.515594
14 sindhi_harappa @ 10.216156
15 sindhi_hgdp @ 11.575945
16 nepali_harappa @ 11.715089
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.918376
18 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 12.368030
19 up-brahmin_harappa @ 12.378859
20 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 12.625798

v3:
1 Baloch 36.75
2 S-Indian 35.09
3 Caucasian 11.61
4 NE-Euro 4.97
5 SW-Asian 3.26
6 Siberian 2.15
7 NE-Asian 1.81
8 Mediterranean 1.40
9 American 1.23

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 3.925164
2 up-muslim_harappa @ 4.812606
3 punjabi_harappa @ 5.287800
4 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.481483
5 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 6.672230
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 6.757223
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.413502
8 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 7.497286
9 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 7.590878
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 7.627254
11 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 7.650193
12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.449482
13 nepali_harappa @ 9.604247
14 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.831407
15 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 10.559455
16 up-brahmin_harappa @ 10.639169
17 sindhi_harappa @ 10.781695
18 nepalese-a_xing @ 10.783221
19 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 11.214695
20 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.244663

Some changes for MDLP but not much different for Harrapa and on MDLP my distances changed quite a bit

MonkeyDLuffy
09-23-2018, 01:30 PM
So I converted mine and this was the difference between the two:

MDLP K16 v5:

# Population Percent
1 Indian 54.48
2 Caucasian 23.67
3 Steppe 7.00
4 SouthEastAsian 4.22
5 Australian 4.04
6 Siberian 2.99
7 NearEast 1.59
8 NorthEastEuropean 1.16

1 Gujjar_Punjab @ 5.803017
2 Sindhi_Sindh @ 6.841821
3 Jatt_Muslim @ 7.284512
4 Meena_Rajasthan @ 7.333642
5 Jatt_Pahari @ 7.436093
6 Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir @ 7.642800
7 Pathan_Punjab @ 8.761565
8 Kshatriya_India @ 9.348858
9 Brahmin_India @ 9.396464
10 Burusho_Pakistan @ 9.842859
11 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu @ 10.216638
12 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh @ 10.995768
13 Vaish_Odisha @ 11.207556
14 Meghawal_Gujarat @ 11.758006
15 GujaratiA_Gujarat @ 12.124769
16 Kalash_Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa @ 12.943550
17 Jew_Mumbai @ 13.637907
18 Jew_Cochin @ 14.081803
19 Balochi_Baluchistan @ 14.212347
20 Brahui_Baluchistan @ 14.258526

v3:
# Population Percent
1 Indian 52.33
2 Caucasian 19.40
3 Steppe 9.49
4 SouthEastAsian 5.28
5 Siberian 2.77
6 NearEast 2.30
7 Australian 2.16
8 NorthEastEuropean 2.09
9 Amerindian 1.29
10 Neolithic 1.17


Using 1 population approximation:
1 Jatt_Muslim @ 2.914793
2 Brahmin_India @ 4.862192
3 Burusho_Pakistan @ 5.013893
4 Kshatriya_India @ 6.142229
5 Kashmiri_Pandit_Kashmir @ 6.320632
6 Jatt_Pahari @ 6.868000
7 Meena_Rajasthan @ 7.174900
8 Vaish_Odisha @ 7.510009
9 Brahmin_Uttar_Pradesh @ 7.538482
10 Gujjar_Punjab @ 7.763913
11 Sindhi_Sindh @ 7.838473
12 Pathan_Punjab @ 8.661748
13 Meghawal_Gujarat @ 10.048042
14 GujaratiA_Gujarat @ 10.616253
15 Brahmin_Tamil_Nadu @ 10.804688
16 Jatt_Haryana @ 11.634295
17 Jew_Cochin @ 12.673909
18 Jew_Mumbai @ 13.580567
19 Srivastava_India @ 13.603160
20 Thakur_Maharashtra @ 13.981433

Harrapa v5:
1 Baloch 37.86
2 S-Indian 34.96
3 Caucasian 13.85
4 NE-Euro 4.37
5 SW-Asian 3.07
6 Siberian 1.99
7 NE-Asian 1.34
8 E-African 1.16

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 4.137795
2 punjabi_harappa @ 6.080265
3 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.583158
4 up-muslim_harappa @ 7.050639
5 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 7.075553
6 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 7.357648
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.368240
8 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 8.245827
9 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 8.384118
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 8.498767
11 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 8.607004
12 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.511598
13 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.515594
14 sindhi_harappa @ 10.216156
15 sindhi_hgdp @ 11.575945
16 nepali_harappa @ 11.715089
17 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.918376
18 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 12.368030
19 up-brahmin_harappa @ 12.378859
20 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 12.625798

v3:
1 Baloch 36.75
2 S-Indian 35.09
3 Caucasian 11.61
4 NE-Euro 4.97
5 SW-Asian 3.26
6 Siberian 2.15
7 NE-Asian 1.81
8 Mediterranean 1.40
9 American 1.23

Using 1 population approximation:
1 gujarati-muslim_harappa @ 3.925164
2 up-muslim_harappa @ 4.812606
3 punjabi_harappa @ 5.287800
4 kashmiri-pandit_reich @ 6.481483
5 kashmiri-pahari_harappa @ 6.672230
6 punjabi-jatt-muslim_harappa @ 6.757223
7 kashmiri_harappa @ 7.413502
8 singapore-indian-c_sgvp @ 7.497286
9 punjabi-ramgarhia_harappa @ 7.590878
10 pushtikar-brahmin_harappa @ 7.627254
11 punjabi-brahmin_harappa @ 7.650193
12 punjabi-arain_xing @ 9.449482
13 nepali_harappa @ 9.604247
14 punjabi-khatri_harappa @ 9.831407
15 bihari-brahmin_harappa @ 10.559455
16 up-brahmin_harappa @ 10.639169
17 sindhi_harappa @ 10.781695
18 nepalese-a_xing @ 10.783221
19 rajasthani-brahmin_harappa @ 11.214695
20 punjabi-jatt-sikh_harappa @ 11.244663

Some changes for MDLP but not much different for Harrapa and on MDLP my distances changed quite a bit

The only difference I noticed in harappa after conversion to v3 from v4 is that my SI went down. And the SNP coverage is way better on V3.


# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.54
2 S-Indian 34.25
3 NE-Euro 12.78
4 Caucasian 10.74
5 Siberian 1.91
6 SW-Asian 1.22
7 Beringian 1.09
8 American 0.77
9 NE-Asian 0.32
10 Mediterranean 0.17
11 Papuan 0.13
12 W-African 0.05
13 Pygmy 0.02

SNP coverage 187756

Population Percent
1 Indian 49.69
2 Caucasian 21.39
3 Steppe 10.48
4 SouthEastAsian 6.44
5 NorthEastEuropean 5.04
6 Oceanic 1.38
7 Siberian 1.34
8 Amerindian 1.33
9 Australian 0.82
10 Arctic 0.78
11 NearEast 0.68
12 Neolithic 0.35
13 Ancestor 0.24
14 Subsaharian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 3.9
2 Jatt (Muslim) 3.97
3 Brahmin (India) 4.7
4 Jatt (Pahari) 5.09
5 Burusho (Pakistan) 5.24
6 Pathan (Punjab) 5.86
7 Gujjar (Punjab) 6.56
8 Jatt (Haryana) 7.27
9 Kshatriya (India) 7.78
10 Meena (Rajasthan) 7.81
11 Brahmin (Uttar_Pradesh) 8.5
12 Vaish (Odisha) 8.58
13 Sindhi (Sindh) 9.29
14 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.55
15 GujaratiA (Gujarat) 11.35
16 Jew (Mumbai) 11.56
17 Meghawal (Gujarat) 11.65
18 Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) 11.83
19 Jew (Cochin) 12.75
20 Kalash (Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa) 13.84



So overall in every calc my SI/ASI/Indian went down 1-3%. Now I seem more closer to Tarkhan average.

Raza94
09-24-2018, 07:17 AM
The only difference I noticed in harappa after conversion to v3 from v4 is that my SI went down. And the SNP coverage is way better on V3.


# Population Percent
1 Baloch 36.54
2 S-Indian 34.25
3 NE-Euro 12.78
4 Caucasian 10.74
5 Siberian 1.91
6 SW-Asian 1.22
7 Beringian 1.09
8 American 0.77
9 NE-Asian 0.32
10 Mediterranean 0.17
11 Papuan 0.13
12 W-African 0.05
13 Pygmy 0.02

SNP coverage 187756

Population Percent
1 Indian 49.69
2 Caucasian 21.39
3 Steppe 10.48
4 SouthEastAsian 6.44
5 NorthEastEuropean 5.04
6 Oceanic 1.38
7 Siberian 1.34
8 Amerindian 1.33
9 Australian 0.82
10 Arctic 0.78
11 NearEast 0.68
12 Neolithic 0.35
13 Ancestor 0.24
14 Subsaharian 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 3.9
2 Jatt (Muslim) 3.97
3 Brahmin (India) 4.7
4 Jatt (Pahari) 5.09
5 Burusho (Pakistan) 5.24
6 Pathan (Punjab) 5.86
7 Gujjar (Punjab) 6.56
8 Jatt (Haryana) 7.27
9 Kshatriya (India) 7.78
10 Meena (Rajasthan) 7.81
11 Brahmin (Uttar_Pradesh) 8.5
12 Vaish (Odisha) 8.58
13 Sindhi (Sindh) 9.29
14 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.55
15 GujaratiA (Gujarat) 11.35
16 Jew (Mumbai) 11.56
17 Meghawal (Gujarat) 11.65
18 Brahmin (Tamil_Nadu) 11.83
19 Jew (Cochin) 12.75
20 Kalash (Khyber_Pakhtunkhwa) 13.84



So overall in every calc my SI/ASI/Indian went down 1-3%. Now I seem more closer to Tarkhan average.

Hmm intersting On Harrapa my SI went up but on MDLP it went down. Does the distances changing mean anything?

vintage_sky
09-24-2018, 10:13 AM
You said you are Rajput from Jammu?

Yes and No is the answer. The Pakhreel clan in my area of Azad Kashmir classify themselves as Jatt and according to my missing tree, all the Pakhreels in my famililial area of Azad Kashmir descend from one guy. But the origins of the Pakhreels seems to be in Jammu where you can find many in the Akhnoor and Rajauri areas. Many Muslim Pakhreels settled in the Chakwal areas of Pakistan, during Partition.

It is believe the Pakhreels descend from the Rajput. Many pakhreel still ascribe to their Rajput status. Interestly though, my paternal ancestor settled in Azad Kashmir from present day Rawalpindi some 200+ years ago. What gives?! I cant find any record of Pakhreels in Rawalpindi. They may have got about. Although national borders aside, Rajauri and Akhnoor are not actually very far from where he settled in Azad Kashmir. So he may have just returned home!

vintage_sky
09-24-2018, 10:34 AM
According to jatland.com, my gotra claim descent from Jammu Rajputs. If that's true then I don't have a Jatt paternal lineage. Do you know of any other R2a Jatts on this forum other than us two, and if so does their clan claim descent from AJK Rajputs?

I don't know much about my terminal SNP (Y1383) and only two men on YFull have it (one is from Gujarat and one is from Punjab (Pakistan). R-Y1383 comes under R-SK2142, which is observed a lot (including subclades) in the Arabian peninsula (YFull and r2dna.org) so my lineage also traces to the Zagros mountains within the last 6900 years. Our lineages probably entered South Asia at around the same time.

What is your gotra? Its interesting that you are Sikh Jatt with a gotra associated with the Rajput. The vast majority of Sikh jatt clans are ethnic jatts who descend from the peasantry of Sindh and whose status was lifted through Sikhism.

I don't know of another R2a jatt but I know so far of a Rathore R2a and Chauhan who are both based in Kashmir. There was another chap who has gone off the radar, he was R2a and claimed to be from Kashmiri Ancestry. Im not sure what caste.

I think our branches entered the same time. Both our terminal snps descend from V3714. Interestingly mine SNP only matches a Kuwaiti. I wonder how his ancestors and mine interacted. Whether they split in the Zagros or in present day Pakistan or even India.

R2a is found in the Ganj e Dareh excavations and there is other evidence to suggest R2a may have come into india during the first Iranian farmer settlers into the Subcontinent. I have always hypothesised the hightened R2 in South India is a result of movement of R2 further south and becoming water locked by the Oceans and further migration was not possible. I think the Rakhighari excavations have evidentially suggested that the Out of India theory is a myth and thus any studies suggest otherwise are flawed.

vintage_sky
09-24-2018, 10:54 AM
if you lost that esteem for some reason, you were downgraded to a Jatt, etc.

I always thought the downgrade was a result of not having rulership. What else could you do than cultivate land which you had or could get your hands on. And you were assumed to take Jatt status. Zamindaars. See in Azad Kashmir the aal jats put emphasis on the titular statement of being Chaudhary Jatts. Not quite sure why?! I suppose it dintinguishes them somehow.

You will find those who are not ethnic jats like my family whose gotras trace to the Rajput have an affinity genticially towards the Kshaytria clans. How this works, I don't know. I never did any pharolla pharaali into this lol. I do find my own genetics is picking up as having a link to Brahmins too. I haven't quite worked out why. We also seem to be getting links with Muslim relgious tribes like the Qureshis, Bukharis and Sayeds.

Jatt1
09-24-2018, 07:30 PM
What is your gotra?

I don't know of another R2a jatt but I know so far of a Rathore R2a and Chauhan who are both based in Kashmir. There was another chap who has gone off the radar, he was R2a and claimed to be from Kashmiri Ancestry. Im not sure what caste..

Bains and many other Jatt clans are mainly R2a. Bains is a huge Jatt clan.

tipirneni
09-24-2018, 07:40 PM
What is your gotra? Its interesting that you are Sikh Jatt with a gotra associated with the Rajput. The vast majority of Sikh jatt clans are ethnic jatts who descend from the peasantry of Sindh and whose status was lifted through Sikhism.

I don't know of another R2a jatt but I know so far of a Rathore R2a and Chauhan who are both based in Kashmir. There was another chap who has gone off the radar, he was R2a and claimed to be from Kashmiri Ancestry. Im not sure what caste.

I think our branches entered the same time. Both our terminal snps descend from V3714. Interestingly mine SNP only matches a Kuwaiti. I wonder how his ancestors and mine interacted. Whether they split in the Zagros or in present day Pakistan or even India.

R2a is found in the Ganj e Dareh excavations and there is other evidence to suggest R2a may have come into india during the first Iranian farmer settlers into the Subcontinent. I have always hypothesised the hightened R2 in South India is a result of movement of R2 further south and becoming water locked by the Oceans and further migration was not possible. I think the Rakhighari excavations have evidentially suggested that the Out of India theory is a myth and thus any studies suggest otherwise are flawed.

R2 is found heavily in Andhra. There is old saying that Andhra were neighbours to Dardic tribes during Iron Age. Their old language Desi is classified as Dardic. Now they are thoroughly mixed with Dravidian & AASI tribals so Telugu has more of these notes.

bmoney
09-25-2018, 04:05 AM
Noice :D


My maternal 1st cousin (Mann/Sidhu) had his 23andMe V5 results came in. Lots of new Jatt Sikh matches that my parents and myself didn't get in relative finder (will add them to the spreadsheet). More importantly, his haplogroup data:

Y-DNA: L1a1 (L-M27)
mtDNA: U7

noice

aaronbee2010
09-25-2018, 01:28 PM
What is your gotra? Its interesting that you are Sikh Jatt with a gotra associated with the Rajput. The vast majority of Sikh jatt clans are ethnic jatts who descend from the peasantry of Sindh and whose status was lifted through Sikhism.

I don't know of another R2a jatt but I know so far of a Rathore R2a and Chauhan who are both based in Kashmir. There was another chap who has gone off the radar, he was R2a and claimed to be from Kashmiri Ancestry. Im not sure what caste.

Gotra: https://www.jatland.com/home/Balagan (My surnames spelled "Ballagan" though). I can't say how valid my clans claim about Rajput descent is, unfortunately.

I ordered a 67 marker Y-STR test with FTDNA so I'm looking forward to seeing what South Asian matches I get, particularly in the last 400-700 years or so. That might give me a clue as to whether the claim of Rajput descent is correct or not. It doesn't help that my gotra has very little information on it, relatively speaking. I'm not sure if 67 STRs is enough, I might have to upgrade to 111 STRs when a winter offer pops up.


I think our branches entered the same time. Both our terminal snps descend from V3714. Interestingly mine SNP only matches a Kuwaiti. I wonder how his ancestors and mine interacted. Whether they split in the Zagros or in present day Pakistan or even India

The problem is that not a lot of South Asian men on YFull between our branches and R-V3714 due to relative rarity, so its hard to say anything conclusive due to a low sample size. What I can tell is that, looking at the frequency and distributions of our branches, there are some differences. R-Y1331 seems to be more successfully distributed among India (reaching out as far as Arunachal Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh in India, as well as Bangladesh) while R-Y1383 doesn't seem to go any further east in India than Gujarat (there are only two Y1383+ men on YFull who can be identified by state though).

Also, the MRCA of all SA men between R-V3714 and R-Y1331 lived around 6400 years ago whereas the MRCA of all SA men been R-V3714 and R-Y1383 (except one) lived around 5300 years ago.

The distributions and MRCA times of R-Y1331 and R-Y1383 would suggest to me that your branch entered South Asia before mine and therefore had more time to spread out eastwards.

Here's a list of my closest Y-SNP matches on r2dna.org:

https://i.gyazo.com/d89b36fd8fd6f265d109a7981f559e0b.png

Compared to them, I'm SK2142+, Y1377+ and Z29272+. Also, 3 of the 6 Z29272+ men on YFull are in the Arabian Peninsula.

Looking at your subclade, there are two Y1331+ men on r2dna.org and they're both Saudis, however neither of them were tested positive for a SNP below Y1331, same as the R-Y1331* Kuwaiti on YFull.

Looking at other branches of R-Y1280 and R-SK2142, there is a lot of men in the Arabian peninsula, and while I can't rule out a back-migration from South Asia to the Arabian peninsula for some of these results, the distribution of other descendants of R-V3714 (and even R-P267) suggests the vast majority of movement was from the Middle East to South Asia.


R2a is found in the Ganj e Dareh excavations and there is other evidence to suggest R2a may have come into india during the first Iranian farmer settlers into the Subcontinent. I have always hypothesised the hightened R2 in South India is a result of movement of R2 further south and becoming water locked by the Oceans and further migration was not possible. I think the Rakhighari excavations have evidentially suggested that the Out of India theory is a myth and thus any studies suggest otherwise are flawed.

I completely agree with your hypothesis on the R2a in South Asia coming pretty much exclusively from the Zagros Mountains. The vast majority of South Asian R2a comes under R2a2b1b-Y8766, which is descended from R2a2-P267, both of which appear to have originated in or near the Zagros mountains. The Out-Of-India Theory is worse than flawed, its outright biased. It's basically Indian Afrocentrism -_-. To quote myself from another post:


Most R2 men are located in E/SE/S India however the origin of R2 was not near that region. To give an example, the most common subclade in Western Europe is R-M269 (R1b1a1a2 - ISOGG 2018), with its levels being highest in Wales and Ireland. However the origin of R-M269 is known to either be SE Europe or West Asia, it is merely the case that men carrying the M269 mutation moved Northwest into Europe (around the Neolithic period) and concentrations of R-M269 increased the most along the western edge of Europe due to the Atlantic preventing further expansion westwards.

Its the same logic with R2. Most R2 men in the world (and roughly 100% of R2 men in India) come under a subclade called R-P267 (R2a2 - ISOGG 2018), which has it origins in or near the Zagros Mountains (SW/W Iran). R2 would've been introduced into the Indian subcontinent through various waves of migration from Iran beginning at around 10500 years ago. By far the most successful subclade in India comes under a subclade of R-P267 known as R-L295 (R2a2b1b2b - ISOGG 2018) and, despite being located all throughout India, peaks along the Southeastern coast due to the eastern half of the Indian Ocean preventing further expansion in the SE direction.

Jatt1
09-25-2018, 06:42 PM
Gotra: https://www.jatland.com/home/Balagan (My surnames spelled "Ballagan" though). I can't say how valid my clans claim about Rajput descent is, unfortunately.

I ordered a 67 marker Y-STR test with FTDNA so I'm looking forward to seeing what South Asian matches I get, particularly in the last 400-700 years or so. That might give me a clue as to whether the claim of Rajput descent is correct or not. It doesn't help that my gotra has very little information on it, relatively speaking. I'm not sure if 67 STRs is enough, I might have to upgrade to 111 STRs when a winter offer pops up.



The problem is that not a lot of men between our branches and R-V3714 due to relative rarity, so the sample size is quite low. What I can tell is that the distribution of R-SK2142 and R-Y1280 are quite similar in number and distribution.

Here's a list of my closest Y-SNP matches on r2dna.org:

https://i.gyazo.com/d89b36fd8fd6f265d109a7981f559e0b.png

Compared to them, I'm SK2142+, Y1377+ and Z29272+. Also, 3 of the 6 Z29272+ men on YFull are in the Arabian Peninsula.

Looking at your subclade, there are two Y1331+ men on r2dna.org and they're both Saudis, however neither of them were tested positive for a SNP below Y1331, same as the R-Y1331* Kuwaiti on YFull.

Looking at our branches being observed a lot in the Arabian Peninsula, It seems they entered South Asia around a similar time period, around 5500-6000 years ago. I can't rule out a back-migration from South Asia to the Arabian peninsula for some of these results, but looking at the distribution of other descendants of R-P267 suggests the vast majority of movement was from the Middle East to South Asia.



I completely agree with your hypothesis on the R2a in South Asia coming pretty much exclusively from the Zagros Mountains. The vast majority of South Asian R2a comes under R2a2b1b-Y8766, which is descended from R2a2-P267, both of which appear to have originated in or near the Zagros mountains. The Out-Of-India Theory is worse than flawed, its outright biased. It's basically Indian Afrocentrism -_-. To quote myself from another post:

There are not too many South Asians with 67 or 111 STRs so they are unlikely to be of any use to you, I do not understand why you will waste your money on STRs while you can have a WGS by Dente Labs for around $499 and may be even cheaper than that.

aaronbee2010
09-25-2018, 06:50 PM
There are not too many South Asians with 67 or 111 STRs so they are unlikely to be of any use to you, I do not understand why you will waste your money on STRs while you can have a WGS by Dente Labs for around $499 and may be even cheaper than that.

If I'm paying for NGS then I would rather get a Y Elite service from Full Genomes Corp. I know its not a Whole Genome Sequence, but I'm only interested in my Y-DNA, and their coverage of Y-DNA is the best in the business as far as I know. I'll consider NGS when I have more money but Y-STRs are fine for now.

I initially bought 37 markers but afterwards an FTDNA sale came up and an upgrade from 37 to 67 markers was only $69. Still a decent amount of money but much less than NGS is right now.

Jatt1
09-25-2018, 06:56 PM
If I'm paying for NGS then I would rather get a Y Elite service from Full Genomes Corp. I know its not a Whole Genome Sequence, but I'm only interested in my Y-DNA, and their coverage of Y-DNA is the best in the business as far as I know. I'll consider NGS when I have more money but Y-STRs are fine for now.

I initially bought 37 markers but afterwards an FTDNA sale came up and an upgrade from 37 to 67 markers was only $69. Still a decent amount of money but much less than NGS is right now.

WGS yDNA information be as good as from Y Elite but you also get aDNA and Full mtDNA in addition, it also costs less plus provides you with 500 or so STRs.

aaronbee2010
09-25-2018, 07:16 PM
WGS yDNA information be as good as from Y Elite but you also get aDNA and Full mtDNA in addition, it also costs less plus provides you with 500 or so STRs.

I believe Y Elite gives you 80x coverage on your Y-DNA compared to 30x WGS from Dante Labs. I'm not interested in aDNA or mtDNA either.

Dante Labs is definitely the cheapest NGS option available today, but $499 is a little too much for me at the moment. I would like to do NGS in the near future, but right now I can't afford it.

bmoney
09-25-2018, 11:49 PM
Gotra: https://www.jatland.com/home/Balagan (My surnames spelled "Ballagan" though). I can't say how valid my clans claim about Rajput descent is, unfortunately.

I ordered a 67 marker Y-STR test with FTDNA so I'm looking forward to seeing what South Asian matches I get, particularly in the last 400-700 years or so. That might give me a clue as to whether the claim of Rajput descent is correct or not. It doesn't help that my gotra has very little information on it, relatively speaking. I'm not sure if 67 STRs is enough, I might have to upgrade to 111 STRs when a winter offer pops up.



The problem is that not a lot of South Asian men on YFull between our branches and R-V3714 due to relative rarity, so its hard to say anything conclusive due to a low sample size. What I can tell is that, looking at the frequency and distributions of our branches, there are some differences. R-Y1331 seems to be more successfully distributed among India (reaching out as far as Arunachal Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh in India, as well as Bangladesh) while R-Y1383 doesn't seem to go any further east in India than Gujarat (there are only two Y1383+ men on YFull who can be identified by state though).

Also, the MRCA of all SA men between R-V3714 and R-Y1331 lived around 6400 years ago whereas the MRCA of all SA men been R-V3714 and R-Y1383 (except one) lived around 5300 years ago.

The distributions and MRCA times of R-Y1331 and R-Y1383 would suggest to me that your branch entered South Asia before mine and therefore had more time to spread out eastwards.

Here's a list of my closest Y-SNP matches on r2dna.org:

https://i.gyazo.com/d89b36fd8fd6f265d109a7981f559e0b.png

Compared to them, I'm SK2142+, Y1377+ and Z29272+. Also, 3 of the 6 Z29272+ men on YFull are in the Arabian Peninsula.

Looking at your subclade, there are two Y1331+ men on r2dna.org and they're both Saudis, however neither of them were tested positive for a SNP below Y1331, same as the R-Y1331* Kuwaiti on YFull.

Looking at other branches of R-Y1280 and R-SK2142, there is a lot of men in the Arabian peninsula, and while I can't rule out a back-migration from South Asia to the Arabian peninsula for some of these results, the distribution of other descendants of R-V3714 (and even R-P267) suggests the vast majority of movement was from the Middle East to South Asia.



I completely agree with your hypothesis on the R2a in South Asia coming pretty much exclusively from the Zagros Mountains. The vast majority of South Asian R2a comes under R2a2b1b-Y8766, which is descended from R2a2-P267, both of which appear to have originated in or near the Zagros mountains. The Out-Of-India Theory is worse than flawed, its outright biased. It's basically Indian Afrocentrism -_-. To quote myself from another post:

Judging by your aDNA, you are closer to Haryana Jatts than any Rajput from Rajasthan

Claiming Rajput status/descent seems to be a purely status-associating manoeuvre used by many castes and tribes in the Punjab

bmoney
09-26-2018, 12:14 AM
Most R2 men are located in E/SE/S India however the origin of R2 was not near that region. To give an example, the most common subclade in Western Europe is R-M269 (R1b1a1a2 - ISOGG 2018), with its levels being highest in Wales and Ireland. However the origin of R-M269 is known to either be SE Europe or West Asia, it is merely the case that men carrying the M269 mutation moved Northwest into Europe (around the Neolithic period) and concentrations of R-M269 increased the most along the western edge of Europe due to the Atlantic preventing further expansion westwards.

Its the same logic with R2. Most R2 men in the world (and roughly 100% of R2 men in India) come under a subclade called R-P267 (R2a2 - ISOGG 2018), which has it origins in or near the Zagros Mountains (SW/W Iran). R2 would've been introduced into the Indian subcontinent through various waves of migration from Iran beginning at around 10500 years ago. By far the most successful subclade in India comes under a subclade of R-P267 known as R-L295 (R2a2b1b2b - ISOGG 2018) and, despite being located all throughout India, peaks along the Southeastern coast due to the eastern half of the Indian Ocean preventing further expansion in the SE direction.


Nice, R2, L1, J2 and G2a are all Neolithic Iran/Caucasus or Levant derived. We can easily find subclades for all of them that diverged at the source and never went into South Asia

We even have Ts. MDL found that a member of my wifes Ramgarhia clan was y-T

Kulin
09-26-2018, 12:16 AM
Judging by your aDNA, you are closer to Haryana Jatts than any Rajput from Rajasthan

Claiming Rajput status/descent seems to be a purely status-associating manoeuvre used by many castes and tribes in the Punjab

They are genetically quite different though, with Jatts being considerably more Steppe shifted, so it may not be the case that Rajputs are Jatts at all. Rajputs are more likely to be related to an elite group of Gujjars than Jatts. The mythical origin location of (Agnivanshi) Rajputs and Gujjars both lie in Mount Abu in Rajasthan as well.

bmoney
09-26-2018, 12:26 AM
They are genetically quite different though, with Jatts being considerably more Steppe shifted, so it may not be the case that Rajputs are Jatts at all. Rajputs are more likely to be related to an elite group of Gujjars than Jatts. The mythical origin location of (Agnivanshi) Rajputs and Gujjars both lie in Mount Abu in Rajasthan as well.

Its interesting for sure and definitely plausible.

Who knows who the Vedic Kshatriya tribes were, maybe the Swat IAs? but the Rajputs seem to be much more local admixed possibly of even pre Aryan tribal origins in some cases and certainly many groups were assimilated into the title

Its probably the case that Northern Punjab Rajputs like the Janjuas have Gujjar origins or even in other regions in South Asia like you say

In Sikhism, clans like Minhas/Manhas and Chohan (Chauhan) seem to be purely Rajput though with no Jatt crossover

poi
09-26-2018, 01:21 AM
There are not too many South Asians with 67 or 111 STRs so they are unlikely to be of any use to you, I do not understand why you will waste your money on STRs while you can have a WGS by Dente Labs for around $499 and may be even cheaper than that.

I promised myself that I would do WGS when the price drops to $500. I might just do it in the next few months. The only thing to do now is to convince myself that it's worth it now. The alternative is that I can test 7 more people with Ancestry/FTDNA for that price.

prashantvaidwan
09-26-2018, 01:43 AM
Judging by your aDNA, you are closer to Haryana Jatts than any Rajput from Rajasthan

Claiming Rajput status/descent seems to be a purely status-associating manoeuvre used by many castes and tribes in the Punjab
Thanks. I was anxiously waiting for this...lol...

bmoney
09-26-2018, 02:37 AM
Thanks. I was anxiously waiting for this...lol...

haha its fairly obvious youre right

Its interesting how UP/Haryana Jatts don't claim Rajput origins but some Punjabi tribes do

Jatt1
09-26-2018, 05:18 AM
Its interesting for sure and definitely plausible.

Who knows who the Vedic Kshatriya tribes were, maybe the Swat IAs? but the Rajputs seem to be much more local admixed possibly of even pre Aryan tribal origins in some cases and certainly many groups were assimilated into the title

Its probably the case that Northern Punjab Rajputs like the Janjuas have Gujjar origins or even in other regions in South Asia like you say

In Sikhism, clans like Minhas/Manhas and Chohan (Chauhan) seem to be purely Rajput though with no Jatt crossover

Chohan (Chauhan) Jatts are found in Punjab.

prashantvaidwan
09-26-2018, 07:45 AM
haha its fairly obvious youre right

Its interesting how UP/Haryana Jatts don't claim Rajput origins but some Punjabi tribes do
Similar bard stories were associated with many hindu jatt clans but hardly any hindu jat whether illiterate or educated will accept it. Recently, a bard was shooed away for propagating the same story about tomar origin..
When jats of bharatpur established their power, they were also linked with "jadaun" rajput but in their official records bharatpur simply called themselves "yaduvanshi" because after establishing power, each and every ruler of any ethnicity was supposed to originated from divine surya, chandra or yadu lines....lol...and bards did a great work for their patronages. So people may simply accept that an individual clan got divided in jatt and rajput but never the stories as a rajput noble married to a jatt girl and he downgraded to the status of jatt with the inception of a new clan. Nobles of many Sikh jatt clans went a step further and fell for the fancy of rajput word., they needed alliances with rajput states reigning in most of the north and central india and they had to rise from the humble status of a cultivator to a divine origin...and mark themselves distinct from their other brethren. royals of patiala were perpetrators of this and officially mentioned it in their records.2620026201262022620326204

pegasus
09-26-2018, 11:17 AM
They are genetically quite different though, with Jatts being considerably more Steppe shifted, so it may not be the case that Rajputs are Jatts at all. Rajputs are more likely to be related to an elite group of Gujjars than Jatts. The mythical origin location of (Agnivanshi) Rajputs and Gujjars both lie in Mount Abu in Rajasthan as well.

Those ones who dominate Northern India, are definitely not and you are correct this culture and group emanates from Rajasthan extending into the Malwa region. Gujjars generally speak a dialect of Marwari, even the ones in Kashmir do. Though both communities occupy very different spaces, one are pastoralists and the other an urbanized ruling elite. The Rajputs also seem to engage in a culture of marrying into Royal families from other far flung regions for alliances, case and point the most iconic and well known face of this community is in fact Gayatri Devi a Bengali Rajput from Cooch Bahar married into the house of Amber/Jaipur.

aaronbee2010
09-26-2018, 11:22 AM
Thanks. I was anxiously waiting for this...lol...

"Anxiously". Why? :P

pegasus
09-26-2018, 11:26 AM
Chohan (Chauhan) Jatts are found in Punjab.

So is Malik, by your logic that makes them Arab lol? Titular names are often given in honor or service. As Kulin alluded the limes of these Northern Indian Rajput lays deep in Rajastan , the Chauhans included.

prashantvaidwan
09-26-2018, 12:20 PM
Those ones who dominate Northern India, are definitely not and you are correct this culture and group emanates from Rajasthan extending into the Malwa region. Gujjars generally speak a dialect of Marwari, even the ones in Kashmir do. Though both communities occupy very different spaces, one are pastoralists and the other an urbanized ruling elite. The Rajputs also seem to engage in a culture of marrying into Royal families from other far flung regions for alliances, case and point the most iconic and well known face of this community is in fact Gayatri Devi a Bengali Rajput from Cooch Bahar married into the house of Amber/Jaipur.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajbongshi_people

she was from koch rajbongshi ethnic group..they are recognized as OBC in assam and SC in west bengal...they are adivasis and royals of this ethnic group made marriage alliances with Europeans.and were very modern in outlook....Gayatri Devi with her husband...highness of jaipur26211

vintage_sky
09-26-2018, 12:44 PM
edited

vintage_sky
09-26-2018, 12:45 PM
Gotra: https://www.jatland.com/home/Balagan (My surnames spelled "Ballagan" though). I can't say how valid my clans claim about Rajput descent is, unfortunately.

I ordered a 67 marker Y-STR test with FTDNA so I'm looking forward to seeing what South Asian matches I get, particularly in the last 400-700 years or so. That might give me a clue as to whether the claim of Rajput descent is correct or not. It doesn't help that my gotra has very little information on it, relatively speaking. I'm not sure if 67 STRs is enough, I might have to upgrade to 111 STRs when a winter offer pops up.



The problem is that not a lot of South Asian men on YFull between our branches and R-V3714 due to relative rarity, so its hard to say anything conclusive due to a low sample size. What I can tell is that, looking at the frequency and distributions of our branches, there are some differences. R-Y1331 seems to be more successfully distributed among India (reaching out as far as Arunachal Pradesh and Andhra Pradesh in India, as well as Bangladesh) while R-Y1383 doesn't seem to go any further east in India than Gujarat (there are only two Y1383+ men on YFull who can be identified by state though).

Also, the MRCA of all SA men between R-V3714 and R-Y1331 lived around 6400 years ago whereas the MRCA of all SA men been R-V3714 and R-Y1383 (except one) lived around 5300 years ago.

The distributions and MRCA times of R-Y1331 and R-Y1383 would suggest to me that your branch entered South Asia before mine and therefore had more time to spread out eastwards.

Here's a list of my closest Y-SNP matches on r2dna.org:

https://i.gyazo.com/d89b36fd8fd6f265d109a7981f559e0b.png

Compared to them, I'm SK2142+, Y1377+ and Z29272+. Also, 3 of the 6 Z29272+ men on YFull are in the Arabian Peninsula.

Looking at your subclade, there are two Y1331+ men on r2dna.org and they're both Saudis, however neither of them were tested positive for a SNP below Y1331, same as the R-Y1331* Kuwaiti on YFull.

Looking at other branches of R-Y1280 and R-SK2142, there is a lot of men in the Arabian peninsula, and while I can't rule out a back-migration from South Asia to the Arabian peninsula for some of these results, the distribution of other descendants of R-V3714 (and even R-P267) suggests the vast majority of movement was from the Middle East to South Asia.



I completely agree with your hypothesis on the R2a in South Asia coming pretty much exclusively from the Zagros Mountains. The vast majority of South Asian R2a comes under R2a2b1b-Y8766, which is descended from R2a2-P267, both of which appear to have originated in or near the Zagros mountains. The Out-Of-India Theory is worse than flawed, its outright biased. It's basically Indian Afrocentrism -_-. To quote myself from another post:

I can't say I have come across this before. Perhaps speak to Newpakhistorian (the website). They know a thing of two about these jatt gotras.

I did a Y37 and got an upgrate to Y111 when I did my big Y. Neither were helpful. Let me know how this goes for you. I would have started with Y37 and if you got a match, then upgraded. If you dont get any matches at Y37 you wont with other tests, but nonetheless the info. is useful in the future if it proves useless now.

Interesting information on the subclades, it gives me something to look into. I don't know what the craic is with the Arabs splitting off at Y1331* it could suggest a split in the Zagros of two sons. Ones lineage heading south, the other East. I have always assumed my lineage has been in India for a while. It seems the IVC may have been a pull factor. My branch doesn't seem to have pushed east. We seem to have been hanging around the area of IVC to present day. Interesting the Mtdna running in my family are U4b and U4a. Both not native to the region. There has been a lot of endogamy for generations. Im trying to tie the two together. If it can be done.

RougeS
09-26-2018, 01:16 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajbongshi_people

she was from koch rajbongshi ethnic group..they are recognized as OBC in assam and SC in west bengal...they are adivasis and royals of this ethnic group made marriage alliances with Europeans.and were very modern in outlook....Gayatri Devi with her husband...highness of jaipur26211
This
Rajbanshis live in Nepal too and are among very few people who are actually native to Terai,they obviously live in the east.They do fall in aadivashi category.Koshi river which now has taken western direction once flowed east with Teesta and Mahananda as it’s tributaries and used to form the ethinic boundary between north living Koch and Kiratas tribes and south living plains people.Koch-Behar state ruled over Koch people,and Rajbansi too are Koch.

It’s well known that Royal Families claim fake Rajput descent to justify their rule.The richest one,the Scindias of Gwalior were nothing more than soldier of previous ruler but now claim Rajput descent.
Though one of the interesting Rajput claim is from Rana Tharus of Western Nepal,who claim descent from one of the wife of Maharana Pratap,who ran to avoid Jauhar.

pegasus
09-26-2018, 02:05 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajbongshi_people

she was from koch rajbongshi ethnic group..they are recognized as OBC in assam and SC in west bengal...they are adivasis and royals of this ethnic group made marriage alliances with Europeans.and were very modern in outlook....Gayatri Devi with her husband...highness of jaipur26211

That would apply to most populations in that area, most of them are tribals who intermarry with some incoming CA nomadic group from further west. This mimics the pattern seen with those North Indian Rajputs ie significantly more AASI shifted. The caste system in this region seems a late import , even then it does not seem to hold no where near the same weight as it does in the Western Gangetic plains. Reza and Kulin can divulge more as they are Bengalis. The etymology of their name rajbongshi which sounds like Sanskrit "rajvansh" suggests a martial leaning. From what Dluffy has said OBC/SC tags don't mean much and are tags now to get access to better services and social benefits.

Kulin
09-26-2018, 08:27 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajbongshi_people

she was from koch rajbongshi ethnic group..they are recognized as OBC in assam and SC in west bengal...they are adivasis and royals of this ethnic group made marriage alliances with Europeans.and were very modern in outlook....Gayatri Devi with her husband...highness of jaipur26211


That would apply to most populations in that area, most of them are tribals who intermarry with some incoming CA nomadic group from further west. This mimics the pattern seen with those North Indian Rajputs ie significantly more AASI shifted. The caste system in this region seems a late import , even then it does not seem to hold no where near the same weight as it does in the Western Gangetic plains. Reza and Kulin can divulge more as they are Bengalis. The etymology of their name rajbongshi which sounds like Sanskrit "rajvansh" suggests a martial leaning. From what Dluffy has said OBC/SC tags don't mean much and are tags now to get access to better services and social benefits.

The Koch were originally a non-caste group of mixed origin. But, after the fall of Buddhism, they became the dominant tribe in North Bengal and parts of Assam, where they established principalities. Around this time, they became more Hindu-centric, and chose to aspire to Kshatriya status and adopted the name "Rajbangshi" or "of royal lineage". In the present-day, they are still the dominant majority in North Bengal and are mixed Hindu/Muslim and generally assimilated into the Bengali ethnicity, though there are regionalist movements in West Bengal/Assam. Appearance wise, the Rajbangshi in Bangladesh/West Bengal and Purnia Division (Bihar) generally resemble regular Bengali people, but ones in Assam/Nepal look more like Tibeto-Burman tribals. Basically, the Rajbangshi are Bengali equivalent of Jatts in the case of North Bengal, where a close knit tribal non-varna group rose to prominence in local politics and elevated themselves to a higher status. Their origins still remain a mystery though, especially the stark difference in phenotype.

jortita
09-27-2018, 01:43 AM
The Koch were originally a non-caste group of mixed origin. But, after the fall of Buddhism, they became the dominant tribe in North Bengal and parts of Assam, where they established principalities. Around this time, they became more Hindu-centric, and chose to aspire to Kshatriya status and adopted the name "Rajbangshi" or "of royal lineage". In the present-day, they are still the dominant majority in North Bengal and are mixed Hindu/Muslim and generally assimilated into the Bengali ethnicity, though there are regionalist movements in West Bengal/Assam. Appearance wise, the Rajbangshi in Bangladesh/West Bengal and Purnia Division (Bihar) generally resemble regular Bengali people, but ones in Assam/Nepal look more like Tibeto-Burman tribals. Basically, the Rajbangshi are Bengali equivalent of Jatts in the case of North Bengal, where a close knit tribal non-varna group rose to prominence in local politics and elevated themselves to a higher status. Their origins still remain a mystery though, especially the stark difference in phenotype.

Koch Rajbongshi are one of six communities that will be declared as Scheduled Tribe soon, part of the demands of the ULFA peace talk faction, these communities are: Koch Rajbongshi, Chutiya, Ahom, Tea Tribes, Moran and Motock

MonkeyDLuffy
09-27-2018, 01:56 AM
Koch Rajbongshi are one of six communities that will be declared as Scheduled Tribe soon, part of the demands of the ULFA peace talk faction, these communities are: Koch Rajbongshi, Chutiya, Ahom, Tea Tribes, Moran and Motock

Bro what.

prashantvaidwan
09-27-2018, 02:15 AM
Duplicate,.....

prashantvaidwan
09-27-2018, 02:16 AM
Koch Rajbongshi are one of six communities that will be declared as Scheduled Tribe soon, part of the demands of the ULFA peace talk faction, these communities are: Koch Rajbongshi, Chutiya, Ahom, Tea Tribes, Moran and Motock
Pardon me, chutia??...is this really a group name, how it is pronounced..this word is used in a complete different sense in north India...lol..

Kulin
09-27-2018, 02:19 AM
Pardon me, chutia??...is this really a group name, how it is pronounced..this word is used in a complete different sense in north India...lol..

It's actually pronounced "Sutia" :lol:

jortita
09-27-2018, 03:14 AM
Bro what.

Yes and I have Ahom Chutiya ancestry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutiya_people, tibeto burmese with considerable shan admixture

tipirneni
09-27-2018, 04:20 AM
Yes and I have Ahom Chutiya ancestry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutiya_people, tibeto burmese with considerable shan admixture

"distance%=1.0109"

Jortita

ssamlal,36.3333333333333
Velamas,20.6666666666667
Oakaie1_all,19.1666666666667
Khana,11
Pnb_Unscaled,9.16666666666667
Punjabi_Nai,2.16666666666667
Ju_hoan_North,1
Kurumba,0.5

pegasus
09-27-2018, 04:44 AM
Yes and I have Ahom Chutiya ancestry, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutiya_people, tibeto burmese with considerable shan admixture

Interesting there is a Chutiya Kingdom as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutiya_Kingdom

What language do Chutiyas speak typically? Are they bilingual in Assamese and Burmese?

poi
09-27-2018, 05:14 AM
We need a thread for all the cuss words that mean completely else in another language. Hindi/Punjabi "chikna" (smooth/slick/cheeky) basically means "f**k" in Nepali. So, growing up watching Bollywood movies, they used that word a lot. We tended to watch movies at home (pirated VHS) with family so cringeworthy for sure.

purohit
09-27-2018, 05:32 AM
Kya haal hai chutiyo

bol_nat
09-27-2018, 05:36 AM
Its interesting for sure and definitely plausible.

Who knows who the Vedic Kshatriya tribes were, maybe the Swat IAs? but the Rajputs seem to be much more local admixed possibly of even pre Aryan tribal origins in some cases and certainly many groups were assimilated into the title

Its probably the case that Northern Punjab Rajputs like the Janjuas have Gujjar origins or even in other regions in South Asia like you say

In Sikhism, clans like Minhas/Manhas and Chohan (Chauhan) seem to be purely Rajput though with no Jatt crossover

My gujar friend from gujrat/punjab top matches are Swat gujars on genesis gedmatch, overall he get 8-9 of them out of 13 uploaded by Khana. I don't get any and I doubt Pakistani rajput kit will either but who knows. I don't know when exactly split happened between Swat and Gujrat gujars, maybe 400-500 years ago. Not sure how recent it has to be to get in to top of gedmatch.

It would have been interesting to see Swat samples uploaded on old gedmatch as it has much more kits.

bmoney
09-27-2018, 05:59 AM
Kya haal hai chutiyo

Honey Singh Vol 1

jortita
09-27-2018, 06:16 AM
Interesting there is a Chutiya Kingdom as well
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chutiya_Kingdom

What language do Chutiyas speak typically? Are they bilingual in Assamese and Burmese?

No Assamese, but chutiya language is a tibeto burmese bodic language, which they are trying to revive

pnb123
09-27-2018, 06:32 AM
We need a thread for all the cuss words that mean completely else in another language. Hindi/Punjabi "chikna" (smooth/slick/cheeky) basically means "f**k" in Nepali. So, growing up watching Bollywood movies, they used that word a lot. We tended to watch movies at home (pirated VHS) with family so cringeworthy for sure.

Lol, I remember watching Kapil Sharma Show when he invited Manisha Koirala with everyone. They used the word “Chikai”, which probably means fun in Hindi, but f**k in Nepali. I don’t know if writers put that word intentionally though.

purohit
09-27-2018, 06:38 AM
Very siMilar to chodna

MonkeyDLuffy
09-27-2018, 12:50 PM
We need a thread for all the cuss words that mean completely else in another language. Hindi/Punjabi "chikna" (smooth/slick/cheeky) basically means "f**k" in Nepali. So, growing up watching Bollywood movies, they used that word a lot. We tended to watch movies at home (pirated VHS) with family so cringeworthy for sure.

Chikna is not a word in Punjabi.

RougeS
09-27-2018, 03:56 PM
Thanks to cikne cameli song,i always assumed it meant sexy and or smooth.And chiknai prolly means greasy.
The most amusing one tho is that word which means daughter in Rajsthani/Marwari but in ours means d**k.

Kulin
09-27-2018, 04:00 PM
Thanks to cikne cameli song,i always assumed it meant sexy and or smooth.And chiknai prolly means greasy.
The most amusing one tho is that word which means daughter in Rajsthani/Marwari but in ours means d**k.

Yeah, in Hindi, Chikne means something akin to sexy.

In Bangla, 'chikon' is the word used for thin, and chikna can be an informal/urban version meaning skinny.

The funniest thing is that in Bengali, Phuck (pronounced as fuck in some East Bengali dialects), means gap, can totally sound like the curse word.

aaronbee2010
09-27-2018, 04:11 PM
I can't say I have come across this before. Perhaps speak to Newpakhistorian (the website). They know a thing of two about these jatt gotras.

I looked on that site, and I can't find any way of contacting the author of the website. I tried googling my gotra (with both spellings) however information is relatively sparse.


I did a Y37 and got an upgrate to Y111 when I did my big Y. Neither were helpful. Let me know how this goes for you. I would have started with Y37 and if you got a match, then upgraded. If you dont get any matches at Y37 you wont with other tests, but nonetheless the info. is useful in the future if it proves useless now.

Initially, I ordered the Y37 test, but a FTDNA flash sale popped up and the upgrade to Y67 was only $69, so I thought why not? I'll see if Y111 is worthwhile depending on my Y67 matches, although that seems very unlikely based on what others have said.


Interesting information on the subclades, it gives me something to look into. I don't know what the craic is with the Arabs splitting off at Y1331* it could suggest a split in the Zagros of two sons. Ones lineage heading south, the other East. I have always assumed my lineage has been in India for a while. It seems the IVC may have been a pull factor. My branch doesn't seem to have pushed east. We seem to have been hanging around the area of IVC to present day. Interesting the Mtdna running in my family are U4b and U4a. Both not native to the region. There has been a lot of endogamy for generations. Im trying to tie the two together. If it can be done.

For me, the real elephant in the room is Northern Afghanistan, as this is where the BMAC archaeological complex is located. We know that the Indo-Aryans travelled through this area on their way and mixed with the locals to a limited extent before moving to South Asia. We know that those locals descended from the Zagros Mountains (where we've found R2a in samples). Out of 18 male skeletons recovered from the BMAC complex, 2 of them (11.1% to 3 s.f.) belonged to R2 (Narasimhan et al. 2018)

The problem is that Afghanistan is hugely under-represented on YFull, with only two R1a-Z93 (a subclade which dominates South Asia) men on YFull from Afghanistan. It would be nice to see what subclades of R2a exist there (11.4% of Northern Afghani men come under R2a compared to 2.1% of Southern Afghani men - Lacau et al. 2012). The study also says this: "The observed haplogroup distribution suggests some degree of genetic isolation of the northern population, likely due to the Hindu Kush mountain range separating it from the southern Afghans who have had greater contact with neighboring Pathans from Pakistan and migrations from the Indian subcontinent".

In both studies, we're dealing with small sample sizes, so this should be taken into account.

While we have a good idea of how our paternal lines reached South Asia, YFull samples for R2a from Afgnanistan could completely change our opinions.

If you're interesting in seeing if your parents may possibly be distant relatives due to endogamy, then there's a tool on GEDmatch (including Genesis) that can check this.

Jatt1
09-27-2018, 06:50 PM
Chikna is not a word in Punjabi.

Yes it is, generally used for clay it being very smooth and slippery, cheekni mitti.

pegasus
09-27-2018, 08:01 PM
I looked on that site, and I can't find any way of contacting the author of the website. I tried googling my gotra (with both spellings) however information is relatively sparse.



Initially, I ordered the Y37 test, but a FTDNA flash sale popped up and the upgrade to Y67 was only $69, so I thought why not? I'll see if Y111 is worthwhile depending on my Y67 matches, although that seems very unlikely based on what others have said.



For me, the real elephant in the room is Northern Afghanistan, as this is where the BMAC archaeological complex is located. We know that the Indo-Aryans travelled through this area on their way and mixed with the locals to a limited extent before moving to South Asia. We know that those locals descended from the Zagros Mountains (where we've found R2a in samples). Out of 18 male skeletons recovered from the BMAC complex, 2 of them (11.1% to 3 s.f.) belonged to R2 (Narasimhan et al. 2018)

The problem is that Afghanistan is hugely under-represented on YFull, with only two R1a-Z93 (a subclade which dominates South Asia) men on YFull from Afghanistan. It would be nice to see what subclades of R2a exist there (11.4% of Northern Afghani men come under R2a compared to 2.1% of Southern Afghani men - Lacau et al. 2012). The study also says this: "The observed haplogroup distribution suggests some degree of genetic isolation of the northern population, likely due to the Hindu Kush mountain range separating it from the southern Afghans who have had greater contact with neighboring Pathans from Pakistan and migrations from the Indian subcontinent".

In both studies, we're dealing with small sample sizes, so this should be taken into account.

While we have a good idea of how our paternal lines reached South Asia, YFull samples for R2a from Afgnanistan would completely change our opinions.

If you're interesting in seeing if your parents may possibly be distant relatives due to endogamy, then there's a tool on GEDmatch (including Genesis) that can check this.

The Narsimhan paper said they bypassed the BMAC and integrated with IVC individuals but I looked at all the 5 top Steppe shifted groups on
their list , it did not go down that way all, both Nmonte and formal stats clearly show otherwise. A composite BMAC/Steppe pop mixed move through.

poi
09-27-2018, 08:07 PM
Yes it is, generally used for clay it being very smooth and slippery, cheekni mitti.

We call it "chiplo" for slipperly. Smooth is "chillo". And we don't say "cheekni" unless we want to get beat up (or get some action -- but that's like hitting the lottery with that kind of talk lol).

Kulin
09-27-2018, 09:37 PM
Looked it up, apparently "chikkon" is a Bangla word meaning smooth, but is obviously very archaic since I've never heard it being said or seen it anywhere in literature/media.

jortita
09-28-2018, 01:08 AM
"distance%=1.0109"

Jortita

ssamlal,36.3333333333333
Velamas,20.6666666666667
Oakaie1_all,19.1666666666667
Khana,11
Pnb_Unscaled,9.16666666666667
Punjabi_Nai,2.16666666666667
Ju_hoan_North,1
Kurumba,0.5

Tipirneri, it is difficult to convince you and other people that all these Western oriented calculators have underestimated my East Asian ancestry including the data used for Eurogenes K25. When I travel within Thailand, I am spoken to in Thai and yesterday a colleague of mine was disputing the fact that it might be because I am considered Eurasian, however she agreed that my appearance could be a Eurasian of mixed Thai Chinese origin otherwise Filipino, Vietnamese mixed. My daughter looks completely Southeast Asian. Ranging from my skin tone to my features and genetic characteristics they are more East Asian. I do agree that phenotype and genetic characteristics are not directly correlated with genotype however I feel given what I have stated, that these calculators have overexaggerated my South Indian ancestry. My wife is Tamil Iyer and in terms of appearance and genetic characteristic we are completely different. I am planning to test directly with xcodelife which I believe is more able to discern the East Asian ancestry differentiated from South Asian

bmoney
09-28-2018, 01:54 AM
I looked on that site, and I can't find any way of contacting the author of the website. I tried googling my gotra (with both spellings) however information is relatively sparse.



Initially, I ordered the Y37 test, but a FTDNA flash sale popped up and the upgrade to Y67 was only $69, so I thought why not? I'll see if Y111 is worthwhile depending on my Y67 matches, although that seems very unlikely based on what others have said.



For me, the real elephant in the room is Northern Afghanistan, as this is where the BMAC archaeological complex is located. We know that the Indo-Aryans travelled through this area on their way and mixed with the locals to a limited extent before moving to South Asia. We know that those locals descended from the Zagros Mountains (where we've found R2a in samples). Out of 18 male skeletons recovered from the BMAC complex, 2 of them (11.1% to 3 s.f.) belonged to R2 (Narasimhan et al. 2018)

The problem is that Afghanistan is hugely under-represented on YFull, with only two R1a-Z93 (a subclade which dominates South Asia) men on YFull from Afghanistan. It would be nice to see what subclades of R2a exist there (11.4% of Northern Afghani men come under R2a compared to 2.1% of Southern Afghani men - Lacau et al. 2012). The study also says this: "The observed haplogroup distribution suggests some degree of genetic isolation of the northern population, likely due to the Hindu Kush mountain range separating it from the southern Afghans who have had greater contact with neighboring Pathans from Pakistan and migrations from the Indian subcontinent".

In both studies, we're dealing with small sample sizes, so this should be taken into account.

While we have a good idea of how our paternal lines reached South Asia, YFull samples for R2a from Afgnanistan could completely change our opinions.

If you're interesting in seeing if your parents may possibly be distant relatives due to endogamy, then there's a tool on GEDmatch (including Genesis) that can check this.

Northern Pashtuns have a higher rate of L interestingly compared to Pakistani Pashtuns who are more R1a dominant

Censored
09-28-2018, 02:49 AM
Tipirneri, it is difficult to convince you and other people that all these Western oriented calculators have underestimated my East Asian ancestry including the data used for Eurogenes K25. When I travel within Thailand, I am spoken to in Thai and yesterday a colleague of mine was disputing the fact that it might be because I am considered Eurasian, however she agreed that my appearance could be a Eurasian of mixed Thai Chinese origin otherwise Filipino, Vietnamese mixed. My daughter looks completely Southeast Asian. Ranging from my skin tone to my features and genetic characteristics they are more East Asian. I do agree that phenotype and genetic characteristics are not directly correlated with genotype however I feel given what I have stated, that these calculators have overexaggerated my South Indian ancestry. My wife is Tamil Iyer and in terms of appearance and genetic characteristic we are completely different. I am planning to test directly with xcodelife which I believe is more able to discern the East Asian ancestry differentiated from South Asian

I think I've seen many Bengalis who look pretty SE Asian and their east Asian scores are half as much as yours:

Model Sample Details Fit Dai Ganj Dareh N Mongola Simulated AASI Sintashta MLBA
1 Dai +Ganj_Dareh_N +Mongola +Simulated_AASI +Sintashta_MLBA Bengali_Bangladesh:Average 2.1072 4.17 29.17 5 45 16.67
2 Dai +Ganj_Dareh_N +Mongola +Simulated_AASI +Sintashta_MLBA Custom:AGUser_Jortita 2.2742 7.5 28.33 11.67 33.33 19.17

So about 9% East Asian for them and 19% for you. You also have less AASI than the Bengali average at 33% vs. 45%. The greater the AASI the more stereotypically South Asian one will look, generally speaking. So twice as high East Asian at the expense of AASI compared to Bengalis. Your phenotype makes sense from a genetic perspective.

tipirneni
09-28-2018, 02:55 AM
Tipirneri, it is difficult to convince you and other people that all these Western oriented calculators have underestimated my East Asian ancestry including the data used for Eurogenes K25. When I travel within Thailand, I am spoken to in Thai and yesterday a colleague of mine was disputing the fact that it might be because I am considered Eurasian, however she agreed that my appearance could be a Eurasian of mixed Thai Chinese origin otherwise Filipino, Vietnamese mixed. My daughter looks completely Southeast Asian. Ranging from my skin tone to my features and genetic characteristics they are more East Asian. I do agree that phenotype and genetic characteristics are not directly correlated with genotype however I feel given what I have stated, that these calculators have overexaggerated my South Indian ancestry. My wife is Tamil Iyer and in terms of appearance and genetic characteristic we are completely different. I am planning to test directly with xcodelife which I believe is more able to discern the East Asian ancestry differentiated from South Asian

Data shows you have 20% Burmese iron age mix with 10% newer Brahmin & 10% kashmir/uzbek like mix.


That should be good idea ? how about wegene ? is it good for Asian admix ?

jortita
09-28-2018, 02:56 AM
I think I've seen many Bengalis who look pretty SE Asian and their east Asian scores are half as much as yours:

Model Sample Details Fit Dai Ganj Dareh N Mongola Simulated AASI Sintashta MLBA
1 Dai +Ganj_Dareh_N +Mongola +Simulated_AASI +Sintashta_MLBA Bengali_Bangladesh:Average 2.1072 4.17 29.17 5 45 16.67
2 Dai +Ganj_Dareh_N +Mongola +Simulated_AASI +Sintashta_MLBA Custom:AGUser_Jortita 2.2742 7.5 28.33 11.67 33.33 19.17

So about 9% East Asian for them and 19% for you. You also have less AASI than the Bengali average at 33% vs. 45%. The greater the AASI the more stereotypically South Asian one will look, generally speaking. So twice as high East Asian at the expense of AASI compared to Bengalis. Your phenotype makes sense from a genetic perspective.

Censored, I was in Bangladesh recently and there people thought I was Thai and at the most CHT indigenous person and not Bangladeshi including being from Sylhet.

jortita
09-28-2018, 02:59 AM
Data shows you have 20% Burmese iron age mix with 10% newer Brahmin & 10% kashmir/uzbek like mix.


That should be good idea ? how about wegene ? is it good for Asian admix ?

Tipirneri, I think the issue is not wegene being good or not, unless I test directly with wegene my results are based on those related to my Ancestry DNA raw data or Living DNA raw data. I am not sure whether or not I can directly test with wegene however probably one of the new Korean ones which offer kits available globally might be an option. As I am based in Thailand, I cannot order 23andMe kit here and hence have not been able to test with them

poi
09-28-2018, 03:11 AM
Tipirneri, it is difficult to convince you and other people that all these Western oriented calculators have underestimated my East Asian ancestry including the data used for Eurogenes K25. When I travel within Thailand, I am spoken to in Thai and yesterday a colleague of mine was disputing the fact that it might be because I am considered Eurasian, however she agreed that my appearance could be a Eurasian of mixed Thai Chinese origin otherwise Filipino, Vietnamese mixed. My daughter looks completely Southeast Asian. Ranging from my skin tone to my features and genetic characteristics they are more East Asian. I do agree that phenotype and genetic characteristics are not directly correlated with genotype however I feel given what I have stated, that these calculators have overexaggerated my South Indian ancestry. My wife is Tamil Iyer and in terms of appearance and genetic characteristic we are completely different. I am planning to test directly with xcodelife which I believe is more able to discern the East Asian ancestry differentiated from South Asian

I have the mega run still running, but here is a quick check of relevant components(I am completely ignoring IVCp in our case, we just don't need IVC). If I could add Chettri in here, I'm sure you'd be very similar.

https://i.imgur.com/DXKjWC8r.png

MonkeyDLuffy
09-28-2018, 03:50 AM
@Jorita: you keep forgetting AASI is east eurasian as well, so that counts towards your east asian as well.

Censored
09-28-2018, 04:14 AM
Censored, I was in Bangladesh recently and there people thought I was Thai and at the most CHT indigenous person and not Bangladeshi including being from Sylhet.

Well I score zero east Asian but many people say I have East Asian phenotypic influence. I think it is most noticeable from the side.

Kurd
09-28-2018, 05:35 AM
Tipirneri, it is difficult to convince you and other people that all these Western oriented calculators have underestimated my East Asian ancestry including the data used for Eurogenes K25. When I travel within Thailand, I am spoken to in Thai and yesterday a colleague of mine was disputing the fact that it might be because I am considered Eurasian, however she agreed that my appearance could be a Eurasian of mixed Thai Chinese origin otherwise Filipino, Vietnamese mixed. My daughter looks completely Southeast Asian. Ranging from my skin tone to my features and genetic characteristics they are more East Asian. I do agree that phenotype and genetic characteristics are not directly correlated with genotype however I feel given what I have stated, that these calculators have overexaggerated my South Indian ancestry. My wife is Tamil Iyer and in terms of appearance and genetic characteristic we are completely different. I am planning to test directly with xcodelife which I believe is more able to discern the East Asian ancestry differentiated from South Asian


What about the K29 GenePlaza calculator. Do you feel it also underestimates your E Asian? This is what you had posted in the K29 thread:


Ancestry DNA

Asian 96.2%

SC/SAsian 61.5%
Indian 53%
SC Asian 8.5%

East-Southeast Asian 22.5%
East Asian 12.5%
Southeast Asian 10%

West Asian 9.9%
West Asian 9.9%

Central Asian 2.3%
Tatars 2.2%

Oceanian 2.4%

Siberian and Amerindian 1.4%
Siberian 1.4%

jortita
09-28-2018, 05:54 AM
What about the K29 GenePlaza calculator. Do you feel it also underestimates your E Asian? This is what you had posted in the K29 thread:


Ancestry DNA

Asian 96.2%

SC/SAsian 61.5%
Indian 53%
SC Asian 8.5%

East-Southeast Asian 22.5%
East Asian 12.5%
Southeast Asian 10%

West Asian 9.9%
West Asian 9.9%

Central Asian 2.3%
Tatars 2.2%

Oceanian 2.4%

Siberian and Amerindian 1.4%
Siberian 1.4%

Kurd, I am not really sure as the results as based on raw data from tests undertaken by LivingDNA and Ancestry DNA. I think probably I might need to do the WGS test at some point and then accept the results if they are the same as for these other companies I have tested with

jortita
09-28-2018, 05:56 AM
Well I score zero east Asian but many people say I have East Asian phenotypic influence. I think it is most noticeable from the side.

Censored, its not just phenotype, I dont have body and facial hair, I am lactose intolerant, no body odour, alcohol flush reaction, among others

jortita
09-28-2018, 06:01 AM
What about the K29 GenePlaza calculator. Do you feel it also underestimates your E Asian? This is what you had posted in the K29 thread:


Ancestry DNA

Asian 96.2%

SC/SAsian 61.5%
Indian 53%
SC Asian 8.5%

East-Southeast Asian 22.5%
East Asian 12.5%
Southeast Asian 10%

West Asian 9.9%
West Asian 9.9%

Central Asian 2.3%
Tatars 2.2%

Oceanian 2.4%

Siberian and Amerindian 1.4%
Siberian 1.4%

I am also puzzled by my one to many matches for my Living DNA kit on Gedmatch Genesis, all the top matches are East Asian, not sure why and hence it makes me wonder whether the ancestry results are correct or not. To be honest I am quite confused

Censored
09-28-2018, 07:55 AM
Censored, its not just phenotype, I dont have body and facial hair, I am lactose intolerant, no body odour, alcohol flush reaction, among others

Dunno about alcohol flush reaction but none of those other things you listed are unique to East Asians. Lacking body and facial hair is also a common trait in low caste and Dravidian tribal populations I believe-just East Eurasian features. Same goes for body odor-majority of India is dry earwax so predisposed to low body odor. Lactose intolerance is very widespread through much of the world.

Me personally? Can barely grow facial hair, lactose intolerant, baby faced(partly due to high facial fat), and similar hair type to East Asians and amerindians. I’m high AASI but lack proper E. Asian mix. Still have these features you might associate with East Asian pops.

Anyway I don’t want to derail this thread more with talk of phenotype.

jortita
10-04-2018, 01:42 AM
Dunno about alcohol flush reaction but none of those other things you listed are unique to East Asians. Lacking body and facial hair is also a common trait in low caste and Dravidian tribal populations I believe-just East Eurasian features. Same goes for body odor-majority of India is dry earwax so predisposed to low body odor. Lactose intolerance is very widespread through much of the world.

Me personally? Can barely grow facial hair, lactose intolerant, baby faced(partly due to high facial fat), and similar hair type to East Asians and amerindians. Iím high AASI but lack proper E. Asian mix. Still have these features you might associate with East Asian pops.

Anyway I donít want to derail this thread more with talk of phenotype.

Censored, I saw your photo on the photo thread under Hindi, you must be in your 20s, I am 42, and admire you as you can grow a full beard even though you think it is barely anything. In my case, even if I dont shave for two weeks, I have no facial hair except for around my mouth and chin, only can grow a semi goatee, I have no growth in either sides of my cheek or elsewhere infact. My son who is half Tamil Iyer is worried that he might have got hairlessness from me as opposed to his thatha and his chittappas who can all grow beards and have lots of body hair

Censored
10-04-2018, 02:10 AM
Censored, I saw your photo on the photo thread under Hindi, you must be in your 20s, I am 42, and admire you as you can grow a full beard even though you think it is barely anything. In my case, even if I dont shave for two weeks, I have no facial hair except for around my mouth and chin, only can grow a semi goatee, I have no growth in either sides of my cheek or elsewhere infact. My son who is half Tamil Iyer is worried that he might have got hairlessness from me as opposed to his thatha and his chittappas who can all grow beards and have lots of body hair

Are you sure you're thinking of the right photo? I don't think anyone could describe my beard as full even when I've let it grow for weeks. My facial hairline is quite low and the hair does not grow very long.

bmoney
10-04-2018, 03:35 AM
Censored, I saw your photo on the photo thread under Hindi, you must be in your 20s, I am 42, and admire you as you can grow a full beard even though you think it is barely anything. In my case, even if I dont shave for two weeks, I have no facial hair except for around my mouth and chin, only can grow a semi goatee, I have no growth in either sides of my cheek or elsewhere infact. My son who is half Tamil Iyer is worried that he might have got hairlessness from me as opposed to his thatha and his chittappas who can all grow beards and have lots of body hair

Jortita could you get your wife tested please?

It will help getting us some more southern samples and also to test if Palakkad Iyers have any local Malayali admixture

jortita
10-04-2018, 06:46 AM
Are you sure you're thinking of the right photo? I don't think anyone could describe my beard as full even when I've let it grow for weeks. My facial hairline is quite low and the hair does not grow very long.

Censored its relative, I dont have any growth so it looks like a lot to me. However, if I compare with say Punjabi friends of mine, I would say your growth is sparse

jortita
10-04-2018, 06:48 AM
Jortita could you get your wife tested please?

It will help getting us some more southern samples and also to test if Palakkad Iyers have any local Malayali admixture

Hi bmoney, i am sure my wife will not agree at all. I am sure they have malayali admixture, as even her own aunts of this generation are married to malayali's.

26284729292
10-05-2018, 07:36 PM
Jortita could you get your wife tested please?

It will help getting us some more southern samples and also to test if Palakkad Iyers have any local Malayali admixture

My paternal grandpa is at least part pallakkad iyer.

poi
10-05-2018, 08:06 PM
Hi bmoney, i am sure my wife will not agree at all. I am sure they have malayali admixture, as even her own aunts of this generation are married to malayali's.

My wife does not want any part of this, so I have her parents and sister tested lol. I kinda know how she scores now. I want to test my daughter but likely that won't happen either. I know I sound like an obsessed maniac, but this is for science.

26284729292
10-05-2018, 09:25 PM
My wife does not want any part of this, so I have her parents and sister tested lol. I kinda know how she scores now. I want to test my daughter but likely that won't happen either. I know I sound like an obsessed maniac, but this is for science.

Is your wife bahun/nepali as well?

26284729292
10-05-2018, 09:26 PM
Hi bmoney, i am sure my wife will not agree at all. I am sure they have malayali admixture, as even her own aunts of this generation are married to malayali's.

Wait forreal? I have some pallakkad iyer ancestry and they've been generally known to be very endogamous amongst either themselves or reg. iyers. At least to my knowledge.

poi
10-05-2018, 09:43 PM
Is your wife bahun/nepali as well?

True and true. But we're from different subgroups that traditionally do not marry each other. Still, since we're so inbred to begin with, GedMatch shows that we are 4.9 generations apart lol.

26284729292
10-05-2018, 09:46 PM
True and true. But we're from different subgroups that traditionally do not marry each other. Still, since we're so inbred to begin with, GedMatch shows that we are 4.9 generations apart lol.

Tell me about it man. My family is 1/4 not endogamous. If my maternal and paternal grandpa didn't get married, my parents would probably be more inbred than that.

I will break the cycle for good. It'll mean cooler oracles.

poi
10-05-2018, 09:56 PM
Tell me about it man. My family is 1/4 not endogamous. If my maternal and paternal grandpa didn't get married, my parents would probably be more inbred than that.

I will break the cycle for good. It'll mean cooler oracles.

Not to hijack this Jatt thread, but I'm a kumai and she's a purbe. Culturally, kumai are a bit restrictive when it comes to dietary/kitchen rituals. But purbes consider kumai as non-upadhyaya, but kumais don't believe that and consider purbes as same as jaise. Sad interfighting but happens with older generations now that the dietary restrictions have gone away and nobody makes a living off reading the Vedas.

Genetically, there doesn't seem to be much difference in major components and the differences started when the Khas people started migrating East a few hundred years ago. Purbes migrated first and settled in the Eastern hills, while kumais remained in the Midwest for the most part.

Censored
10-06-2018, 12:11 AM
You know the funny thing is that there’s this stereotype some people have that Muslims are inbred, and I was thinking about how strange it is that given how my family are very conservative Muslims, there isn’t much intermarrying or even arranged marriage going on except for maybe one section of my paternal relatives.

And ironically I turn out to be less inbred than a lot of people on here who come from endogamous communities since Muslims don’t have castes, but the flip side is that my oracles are a total mess.

poi
10-06-2018, 12:32 AM
You know the funny thing is that thereís this stereotype some people have that Muslims are inbred, and I was thinking about how strange it is that given how my family are very conservative Muslims, there isnít much intermarrying or even arranged marriage going on except for maybe one section of my paternal relatives.

And ironically I turn out to be less inbred than a lot of people on here who come from endogamous communities since Muslims donít have castes, but the flip side is that my oracles are a total mess.

Interesting. I know that west Asia all the way to Pakistan have very high inbreeding due to cousin marriage, but in India, is it generally avoided?

I am inbred myself(no choice) so I get to ask potentially offensive questions

http://consang.net/images/0/0e/Globalcolorsmall.jpg

RougeS
10-06-2018, 12:40 AM
You know the funny thing is that there’s this stereotype some people have that Muslims are inbred, and I was thinking about how strange it is that given how my family are very conservative Muslims, there isn’t much intermarrying or even arranged marriage going on except for maybe one section of my paternal relatives.

And ironically I turn out to be less inbred than a lot of people on here who come from endogamous communities since Muslims don’t have castes, but the flip side is that my oracles are a total mess.

https://youtu.be/NkxuKe2wOMs

Censored
10-06-2018, 12:59 AM
Interesting. I know that west Asia all the way to Pakistan have very high inbreeding due to cousin marriage, but in India, is it generally avoided?

I am inbred myself(no choice) so I get to ask potentially offensive questions

http://consang.net/images/0/0e/Globalcolorsmall.jpg

I don't have the answer and it's something I've wondered about too. Cousin marriages are really common in Pakistan and there was even a big controversy about it in the diaspora community in the UK, but I never noticed that being too popular with people from my own parents community. Of course that is a small sample size and if you look at all Deccan Muslims, and especially all Indian Muslims, the picture might be different.

A lot of that might come from Hyderabadis not being tribe focused. The city was kind of a melting pot with Muslims of all caste and ethnic backgrounds mixing with each other as well as with settlers from the rest of the Muslim world. In that kind of cosmopolitan environment, the only thing that will unite people is religion. There's certain special communities that might be the exception but in general the identity is centered around Islam. So in marriages, people will, among other obvious things, look for spouses that are devout Muslims and have some degree of cultural similarity. Even then with the younger generation, some guys will just prioritize religion over all else and don't mind marrying non-South Asian Muslims.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-06-2018, 08:50 AM
We avoid inbreeding at all the cost lol, going as far as checking surnames of at least parents and grandparents from both sides.

Censored
10-06-2018, 11:16 AM
Tell me about it man. My family is 1/4 not endogamous. If my maternal and paternal grandpa didn't get married, my parents would probably be more inbred than that.

I will break the cycle for good. It'll mean cooler oracles.


Lol, I want to marry a Latina. The mestizo type. Just imagine those oracles.

pnb123
10-06-2018, 08:34 PM
Not to hijack this Jatt thread, but I'm a kumai and she's a purbe. Culturally, kumai are a bit restrictive when it comes to dietary/kitchen rituals. But purbes consider kumai as non-upadhyaya, but kumais don't believe that and consider purbes as same as jaise. Sad interfighting but happens with older generations now that the dietary restrictions have gone away and nobody makes a living off reading the Vedas.

Genetically, there doesn't seem to be much difference in major components and the differences started when the Khas people started migrating East a few hundred years ago. Purbes migrated first and settled in the Eastern hills, while kumais remained in the Midwest for the most part.

Do you know any reason for the divide? I think it’s political divide. I think Far Western Nepal used to be ruled by different kings & sometimes those kingdoms were ruled by Kumaoni rulers (hence the term Kumai). Otherwise no major genetic differences. I had thought you guys would be closer to Uttarakhand Brahmins, but those Brahmins are plotting close to Chhetri. I’m purbe as well but we don’t call ourselves that. We’ve three groups: Upadhay, Jaisi, and Kumai. Kumai surnames include Upreti, Mainali, Kharel, etc. Upadhyay and Jaisi include Poudel, Dahal, Koirala, Dhungyal, etc. Only Upadhyay can become priest, otherwise no difference among Brahmins. But in your recent run, I’m scoring similar to you guys than your in laws. Less steppe more IVC/BMAC. I did research on my surname and they said that we originated from Jumla near Rara, no trace of migration from anywhere else. But I think this is true for every hill Nepali Brahmin.

Inder
10-14-2018, 08:53 PM
Hi, can someone give me some advice please regarding DNA testing? I'm not sure which company to use, 23 & me? Do all companies give conclusive results or do they vary? Also I have scanned some of the results posted on this thread & can not make head or tails of the results, it's all rather confusing. What do I need to look out for specifically as a Jat?

aaronbee2010
10-14-2018, 10:14 PM
Hi, can someone give me some advice please regarding DNA testing? I'm not sure which company to use, 23 & me? Do all companies give conclusive results or do they vary? Also I have scanned some of the results posted on this thread & can not make head or tails of the results, it's all rather confusing. What do I need to look out for specifically as a Jat?

Do you have a specific interest in your paternal or maternal lineages? Are you interested in your autosomal DNA (for stuff like ethnicity percentages)?

Also, welcome to the Anthrogenica forums!

Inder
10-14-2018, 11:53 PM
Do you have a specific interest in your paternal or maternal lineages? Are you interested in your autosomal DNA (for stuff like ethnicity percentages)?

Also, welcome to the Anthrogenica forums!

Paternal & Maternal lineages is something that interests me. But, my main inclination originally was autosomal. I am curious to know what the Jat make up is in my specific case & how it relates to other groups South Asian & European.

Sapporo
10-15-2018, 12:03 AM
Paternal & Maternal lineages is something that interests me. But, my main inclination originally was autosomal. I am curious to know what the Jat make up is in my specific case & how it relates to other groups South Asian & European.

If that's the case, your best bet is to get a 23andMe V5 kit and convert it to a V3.

https://wilhelmhgenealogy.wordpress.com/convert-23andme-to-myheritage-and-gedmatch-classic/

This way you get autosomal with good SNP coverage and overlap with GEDMatch while also at least getting your high level haplogroup (Y-DNA and mt-DNA) designations. If your goal is strictly autosomal, then MyHeritage, FTDNA or Ancestry DNA will be more accurate.

Living DNA has probably the most detailed haplogroup assignments of the major DNA testing companies but its autosomal DNA is probably one of the least accurate in terms of SNP overlap with GEDMatch.

aaronbee2010
10-15-2018, 07:33 PM
Paternal & Maternal lineages is something that interests me. But, my main inclination originally was autosomal. I am curious to know what the Jat make up is in my specific case & how it relates to other groups South Asian & European.

As Sapporo put quite succinctly, if you have a focus on paternal and maternal lineages then LivingDNA is the cheapest option that gives you autosomal, paternal and maternal results even though you comprise a little bit on autosomal accuracy.

MyHeritage, AncestryDNA and FTDNA give you the most accurate autosomal DNA results however you get no results for paternal and maternal lineages.

23andMe represents the middle ground, with autosomal results of decent accuracy (especially if you use the tool Sapporo mentioned to convert your file) and relatively basic results for paternal and maternal results. You might find that you want to take another test just for a more accurate Y-DNA result like I did.

These services (LivingDNA's service is coming shortly, all other providers have this already) also have a DNA matching service that shows your closest autosomal matches (who consent to being a part of this service).

FTDNA is an outlier when it comes to paternal results, as they test for Y-STR's whereas all other services test for Y-SNP's. Y-SNP's give you detailed results for paternal lineages whereas Y-STR's do not. However, where Y-STR's shine is showing your closest Y-DNA matches (all of the services below match you to other people based on autosomal DNA, whereas Y-STR's match you based to people based on Y-DNA).

I'll get into more detail about pricing (including other options):

LivingDNA (autosomal with DNA matches [COMING SOON], paternal and maternal results): £99. Shipping is either £9.99 for Standard Shipping or £19.99 for Express Shipping.

MyHeritage (autosomal with DNA matches): £75 (currently on offer for £59 as of this post). Shipping is either £8 for Standard Shipping or £16 for Express Shipping.

23andMe (autosomal with DNA matches, paternal and maternal results): £79 (or £149 with a health report included - you can get this later down the line if you want). Shipping is either £9.99 for Standard Shipping or £19.99 for Express Shipping.

AncestryDNA (autosomal with DNA matches): £79. Shipping is either £10 for Standard Shipping or £20 for Express Shipping.

FTDNA has seperate tests for autosomal DNA with DNA matches, paternal lineages and maternal lineages (Shipping is $12.95 [£9.86]):

Family Finder (autosomal, with DNA matches): $79 (£60.07).

mtDNA (maternal lineages):


mtDNA Plus (detailed maternal result): $89 (£67.74).
mtFull Sequence (very detailed maternal result) $199 (£151.46).


Y-DNA (paternal lineages only - appropriate for finding closest matches on your paternal line, you will NOT get a detailed paternal haplogroup result with these tests):


Y-DNA37 (somewhat detailed Y-STR test for Y-DNA matches): $169 (£128.63).
Y-DNA67 (more detailed Y-STR test for Y-DNA matches): $268 (£203.98).
Y-DNA111 (very detailed Y-STR test for Y-DNA matches): $359 (£273.25).


South Asians tend not to benefit from the extra accuracy from Y-DNA67 and Y-DNA111, so I would not recommend these tests for you.

YSEQ (paternal results - best way to get the most detailed haplogroup result possible without spending over £450 - Shipping is $5 (£3.80) for your first order as they need to send you a DNA sample swab. For subsequent orders, you can type "IDONTNEEDAKIT" into their coupon box at checkout and they can reuse the sample of your DNA that they already have so you don't need to pay for shipping. If your DNA they have stored has degraded, then they will send you another sample swab for free.):


Y-SNP Haplogroup Panels: $159 for Top-Level Orientation Panel, which you would buy if you've had no paternal results given to you prior to purchasing from YSEQ. If you've already received a result from a test provider (i.e. L-M357 or R-Z93 from 23andMe) then you only to purchase a panel that tests for SNPs below M357 or Z93. These panels range from $88 (£66.89) to $99 (£75.28) depending on the amount of SNP mutations tested. As accurate as these panels are, they only have SNPs that have been observed in a certain minimum number of people.
Individual Y-SNP's: You can also test for individual SNPs with YSEQ. If you want to test for a single SNP that your previous DNA test providers (including YSEQ) haven't tested for, then you can do this as well, for the most detailed result possible (according to YFull or ISOGG trees). If the SNP you wish to test for is not available, then you can use YSEQ's "Wish an SNP" service for $1 (£0.76), which will let you add a new SNP to YSEQ's store by providing the relevant details on that SNP.


NOTE: I've left out FTDNA's Big Y-500 service as its $649 (£493.97 on 15th October 2018), which is super expensive. I've also left out Full Genome Corporation's Y Elite 2.1 service for the same reason (also $649). These tests are mainly purchased by people who want to discover brand new haplogroups. I'm considering saving up for the Y Elite 2.1 service as the number of SNPs under haplogroup R2 is very low, and I would like to contribute to discovering more SNPs.

If you're feeling a bit patient, Christmas may give you an opportunity to get one of the above tests on offer.

All conversions from USD to GBP correct as of 15th October 2018.

If you have any more questions then feel free to let me know (whether on this post or by private message). I am aware that I've used a lot of DNA jargon, so please ask me if you need any clarification.

EDIT: I would personally recommend 23andMe (with a YSEQ panel test down the line) or LivingDNA.


If that's the case, your best bet is to get a 23andMe V5 kit and convert it to a V3.

https://wilhelmhgenealogy.wordpress.com/convert-23andme-to-myheritage-and-gedmatch-classic/

W h y
d i d
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a l r e a d y
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a b o u t
t h i s ?

Jatt1
10-16-2018, 06:34 AM
Hi, can someone give me some advice please regarding DNA testing? I'm not sure which company to use, 23 & me? Do all companies give conclusive results or do they vary? Also I have scanned some of the results posted on this thread & can not make head or tails of the results, it's all rather confusing. What do I need to look out for specifically as a Jat?

Just do 23andme V5 $79 one and have the file converted to V3 if you wish. Livingdna is no good for Jatts or south Asians. No need to waste your money on STRs, they are useless for Jatts. Later if you want you can get a yDNA haplogroup panel done at YSEQ based on your 23andme results. Sapporo I believe can guide you in all that.

laltota
10-16-2018, 10:14 AM
Just do 23andme V5 $79 one and have the file converted to V3 if you wish. Livingdna is no good for Jatts or south Asians. No need to waste your money on STRs, they are useless for Jatts. Later if you want you can get a yDNA haplogroup panel done at YSEQ based on your 23andme results. Sapporo I believe can guide you in all that.

Why are STRs useless for Jatts? Are STRs useful for others?

aaronbee2010
10-16-2018, 12:15 PM
Just do 23andme V5 $79 one and have the file converted to V3 if you wish. Livingdna is no good for Jatts or south Asians. No need to waste your money on STRs, they are useless for Jatts. Later if you want you can get a yDNA haplogroup panel done at YSEQ based on your 23andme results. Sapporo I believe can guide you in all that.

23andMe (without the health report) + YSEQ panel as a combination is definitely the best option in my opinion (especially if you want autosomal results, paternal results an maternal results with good detail).

I wouldn't say LivingDNA is no good. LivingDNA do exaggerate Steppe DNA (at least with me) but the difference in GEDmatch calculators between MyHeritage and LivingDNA isn't too bad, so while the autosomal results are not as good as 23andMe (v5 to v3), LivingDNA is the cheapest option that gives accurate paternal results without the need for YSEQ. I would still recommend 23andMe + YSEQ though.

The real issue with Y-STRs is that not enough South Asians buy them, so anyone that does won't get a lot of matches. If STRs were cheaper, then more South Asians (including Jatts) would buy them, but $169 for only 37 Y-STRs and nothing else is bulls**t. If any South Asian is going to buy Y-STRs then at least wait for an offer. If more South Asians bought Y-STR tests then it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

laltota
10-16-2018, 01:45 PM
If that's the case, your best bet is to get a 23andMe V5 kit and convert it to a V3.

----------

This way you get autosomal with good SNP coverage and overlap with GEDMatch while also at least getting your high level haplogroup (Y-DNA and mt-DNA) designations. If your goal is strictly autosomal, then MyHeritage, FTDNA or Ancestry DNA will be more accurate.

Living DNA has probably the most detailed haplogroup assignments of the major DNA testing companies but its autosomal DNA is probably one of the least accurate in terms of SNP overlap with GEDMatch.


23andMe (without the health report) + YSEQ panel as a combination is definitely the best option in my opinion (especially if you want autosomal results, paternal results an maternal results with good detail).

I wouldn't say LivingDNA is no good. LivingDNA do exaggerate Steppe DNA (at least with me) but the difference in GEDmatch calculators between MyHeritage and LivingDNA isn't too bad, so while the autosomal results are not as good as 23andMe (v5 to v3), LivingDNA is the cheapest option that gives accurate paternal results without the need for YSEQ. I would still recommend 23andMe + YSEQ though.

The real issue with Y-STRs is that not enough South Asians buy them, so anyone that does won't get a lot of matches. If STRs were cheaper, then more South Asians (including Jatts) would buy them, but $169 for only 37 Y-STRs and nothing else is bulls**t. If any South Asian is going to buy Y-STRs then at least wait for an offer. If more South Asians bought Y-STR tests then it wouldn't be such a bad idea.

LivingDNA can sometimes give incorrect assignment to yDna haplogroups. I think it happens with some less investigated branches of certain haplogroups. e.g. for R2... where they will come out with R1b1a...

aaronbee2010
10-16-2018, 04:33 PM
LivingDNA can sometimes give incorrect assignment to yDna haplogroups. I think it happens with some less investigated branches of certain haplogroups. e.g. for R2... where they will come out with R1b1a...

That may be due to LivingDNA's interpretration of your positive SNPs. Reminds me of when I uploaded my 23andMe file to xcode.life and I was assigned to a subclade south of R1b (I'm actually south of R2a) because 23andMe tests for two SNPs under R2, two SNPs under R2a, and nothing south of R2a whatsoever, so I actually had more false positives south of R1b than true positives south of R2a. As you said, it only happens to less investigated branches of certain haplogroups. My branch of R2 is fairly detailed (on LivingDNA).

LivingDNA also lets you download a list of positive SNP's you've tested for, so you can interpret them yourself by comparing them to the ISOGG tree. You can also contact LivingDNA and ask them for a reassignment, so I wouldn't let this put anyone off.

Inder
10-18-2018, 03:08 PM
Thanks for the information everyone, I will look into this further whiIst I wait to see what deals they offer, around the end of the year. Just out of curiosity, I went on Jat land.com & they say Jats are closest to Ukrainians? How true was this according to any Jat or other North West Indian on here who had his DNA analysed?

agent_lime
10-18-2018, 03:37 PM
Thanks for the information everyone, I will look into this further whiIst I wait to see what deals they offer, around the end of the year. Just out of curiosity, I went on Jat land.com & they say Jats are closest to Ukrainians? How true was this according to any Jat or other North West Indian on here who had his DNA analysed?

Can you post the link?

prashantvaidwan
10-18-2018, 07:31 PM
Duplicate,.....,....

prashantvaidwan
10-18-2018, 07:32 PM
Thanks for the information everyone, I will look into this further whiIst I wait to see what deals they offer, around the end of the year. Just out of curiosity, I went on Jat land.com & they say Jats are closest to Ukrainians? How true was this according to any Jat or other North West Indian on here who had his DNA analysed?
I exactly don't know how much it is relevant to your question but jats are high in steppe that constructs the major portion of autosomal dna of European populatoon. On Harappa calculator, jats have highest European component amongst south Asia population. Haryana jats event exceed their Punjabi counterparts in steppe. Below is result of my cousin, a western up jat. He tops the chart in ne-euro for south asian members here.
Harappa calculator
----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

25.99% S-Indian
35.25% Baloch
10.70% Caucasian
21.59% NE-Euro
0.00% SE-Asian
0.73% Siberian
0.00% NE-Asian
0.45% Papuan
1.09% American
1.97% Beringian
2.13% Mediterranean
0.00% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.12% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

Dr_McNinja
10-18-2018, 07:58 PM
^ Prashantvaidwan: Can you post his Eurogenes ANE K7 results?

prashantvaidwan
10-19-2018, 02:57 AM
^ Prashantvaidwan: Can you post his Eurogenes ANE K7 results?
Bro, I never tried it. Kit is uploaded on gedmatch. I will send you a pm

poi
10-20-2018, 04:44 PM
I exactly don't know how much it is relevant to your question but jats are high in steppe that constructs the major portion of autosomal dna of European populatoon. On Harappa calculator, jats have highest European component amongst south Asia population. Haryana jats event exceed their Punjabi counterparts in steppe. Below is result of my cousin, a western up jat. He tops the chart in ne-euro for south asian members here.
Harappa calculator
----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

25.99% S-Indian
35.25% Baloch
10.70% Caucasian
21.59% NE-Euro
0.00% SE-Asian
0.73% Siberian
0.00% NE-Asian
0.45% Papuan
1.09% American
1.97% Beringian
2.13% Mediterranean
0.00% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.12% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

Your cousin is the most steppe-iest of all South Asians and his steppe level is even exceeding a few Tajik groups, which is insane. And he is a UP Jatt even. Are Haryana Jatts different from the UP ones? Haryana is sandwiched between East Punjab and West UP, so I assume he would be identical to Harayanvi Jatts... We need to have more Haryana/UP Jatts in G25, if that's possible. Prashant bro, have you done your G25 yet? Your cousin is sitting there lonely in G25. We need more Uber steppe South Asian folks in there.

Basically, Harappa's "NE Euro" doesn't capture the full steppe in South Asians... And his 21% is kinda misleading because they seem to have way more Steppe MLBA. 20-27% steppe is the Brahmin level steppe. Jatts have like 25-35%... Your cousin is almost 40%, which could be the norm for the Haryanvi/UP Jatt farmers.

Kulin
10-20-2018, 08:28 PM
^ Don't think Prashant has tested yet. Be patient bro, one steppe at a time. (I'll see myself out now :lol: )

aaronbee2010
10-20-2018, 09:39 PM
^ Don't think Prashant has tested yet. Be patient bro, one steppe at a time. (I'll see myself out now :lol: )

https://i1.kwejk.pl/k/obrazki/2012/08/a4b3fbcae52fb1dd9f509ce7cb0d4e01.gif

pegasus
10-20-2018, 09:58 PM
Your cousin is the most steppe-iest of all South Asians and his steppe level is even exceeding a few Tajik groups, which is insane. And he is a UP Jatt even. Are Haryana Jatts different from the UP ones? Haryana is sandwiched between East Punjab and West UP, so I assume he would be identical to Harayanvi Jatts... We need to have more Haryana/UP Jatts in G25, if that's possible. Prashant bro, have you done your G25 yet? Your cousin is sitting there lonely in G25. We need more Uber steppe South Asian folks in there.

Basically, Harappa's "NE Euro" doesn't capture the full steppe in South Asians... And his 21% is kinda misleading because they seem to have way more Steppe MLBA. 20-27% steppe is the Brahmin level steppe. Jatts have like 25-35%... Your cousin is almost 40%, which could be the norm for the Haryanvi/UP Jatt farmers.

I am still shook after dem pics Bmoney posted lol.

Sapporo
10-20-2018, 10:20 PM
Basically, Harappa's "NE Euro" doesn't capture the full steppe in South Asians... And his 21% is kinda misleading because they seem to have way more Steppe MLBA. 20-27% steppe is the Brahmin level steppe. Jatts have like 25-35%... Your cousin is almost 40%, which could be the norm for the Haryanvi/UP Jatt farmers.

His data is on V5 so he should have someone convert it to V3 and get a slightly more accurate picture but most Haryana Jats and the Half Haryana Jat/Half West UP Jat have been between 17-19% NE Euro and 1-3% Med on GEDMatch. The two Rajasthani Jats (on Zack’s run instead of GEDMatch) were 14 and 16% NE Euro respectively with 4-5% Med each.

I’d imagine his cousin is at least above average compared to others. The average Haryana Jat is probably in the mid 30’s in terms of Steppe on nMonte and the most Steppe shifted Jatt Sikhs should overlap with Haryana Jats and be near prashant’s cousin (based on their Harappa scores).

Inder
11-05-2018, 11:06 PM
Can you post the link?
The site will not let me, but it's on Jatland. Com. Im sure you must know of it.

Inder
11-05-2018, 11:11 PM
I exactly don't know how much it is relevant to your question but jats are high in steppe that constructs the major portion of autosomal dna of European populatoon. On Harappa calculator, jats have highest European component amongst south Asia population. Haryana jats event exceed their Punjabi counterparts in steppe. Below is result of my cousin, a western up jat. He tops the chart in ne-euro for south asian members here.
Harappa calculator
----------------------------
FINAL ADMIXTURE PROPORTIONS:
----------------------------

25.99% S-Indian
35.25% Baloch
10.70% Caucasian
21.59% NE-Euro
0.00% SE-Asian
0.73% Siberian
0.00% NE-Asian
0.45% Papuan
1.09% American
1.97% Beringian
2.13% Mediterranean
0.00% SW-Asian
0.00% San
0.00% E-African
0.12% Pygmy
0.00% W-African

What does Caucasion indicate in the results? According to racial classifications we are Caucasion any way & how does it differ from North East European?

Inder
11-05-2018, 11:12 PM
I was unable to log in for a few days.

Censored
11-05-2018, 11:25 PM
What does Caucasion indicate in the results? According to racial classifications we are Caucasion any way & how does it differ from North East European?

According to which racial classification? Indians are not Caucasian in the broad sense. But in this context, Caucasian=from the Caucasus.

aaronbee2010
11-06-2018, 12:05 AM
The servers were down for nearly 2 weeks, so we were all unable to log on. Caucasian in your results refers to the Caucasus region, which is highlighted here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Georgian_empire_with_tributaries.png/260px-Georgian_empire_with_tributaries.png

Censored
11-06-2018, 12:30 AM
The servers were down for nearly 2 weeks, so we were all unable to log on. Caucasian in your results refers to the Caucasus region, which is highlighted here:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d7/Georgian_empire_with_tributaries.png/260px-Georgian_empire_with_tributaries.png

I strongly suspect I have some real Kavkazian ancestry and not just plain Gedrosia. Believe it or not I have one of the strongest affinities to the Caucasus.

aaronbee2010
11-06-2018, 01:23 AM
I strongly suspect I have some real Kavkazian ancestry and not just plain Gedrosia. Believe it or not I have one of the strongest affinities to the Caucasus.

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/62448091/noice.jpg

MonkeyDLuffy
11-06-2018, 02:48 AM
I strongly suspect I have some real Kavkazian ancestry and not just plain Gedrosia. Believe it or not I have one of the strongest affinities to the Caucasus.

do you feel the cockasian raging through your veins?

Censored
11-06-2018, 03:59 AM
do you feel the cockasian raging through your veins?

I sure do:
26916

26917

It seems we are Caucasian brothers.

aaronbee2010
11-07-2018, 06:04 PM
I sure do:
26916

26917

It seems we are Caucasian brothers.

Dude my animated signature got removed by admin >:(

Press F to pay respects

Censored
11-07-2018, 06:40 PM
Dude my animated signature got removed by admin >:(

Press F to pay respects

My condolences.

https://media.giphy.com/media/QLAVO2N1iACGs/giphy.gif

I wanted ^that to be my signature but I was afraid I would have to remove it.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2018, 08:06 PM
I sure do:
26916

26917

It seems we are Caucasian brothers.

It's the choice of pops you chose. You can get same fit using local ancient pops which works for others as well. CHG is very ancient, probably came with Iran N. And if we both are scoring it then something's not right, because I'm not muslim, so it doesn't make sense why would I have any exotic mix. I'll do some runs today later.

Censored
11-07-2018, 09:05 PM
It's the choice of pops you chose. You can get same fit using local ancient pops which works for others as well. CHG is very ancient, probably came with Iran N. And if we both are scoring it then something's not right, because I'm not muslim, so it doesn't make sense why would I have any exotic mix. I'll do some runs today later.

There is a conversation on this in the eurogenes k36 thread. Basically the idea is it could have come via BMAC.

Tomar
05-19-2019, 02:02 AM
For all the Jatt haplogroup date I have collected, there are the following R2's:

1. 5th cousin Tomar (unsure if they are Hindu Jat or Jatt Sikh based on first name)
2. Unidentified gotra/clan Haryana/UP Jat (HRP0131)
3. Jatt Sikh (Sidhu)
4. Jatt Sikh (Hundal)
5. Jatt Sikh (Grewal)
6. Jatt Sikh (Dhaliwal)
7. Two unrelated Jatt Sikhs (Bains)

It's not as common as L1a2 or R1a1a but it's one of the more common minority haplogroups among Jatt Sikhs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1xm5xp5Qxk8N8kSortwFU5Qr-KWCGNKsYgdT5Mnv8kDc/edit?pli=1#gid=0

That 5th cousin and HRP0131 are the same person, and that's me. Sorry came up on this thread. I am a hindu Jat but my grandmother was sikh as they had this tradition of eldest son being baptized as a sikh. Wussup 5th cousin.

aaronbee2010
05-20-2019, 12:04 PM
That 5th cousin and HRP0131 are the same person, and that's me. Sorry came up on this thread. I am a hindu Jat but my grandmother was sikh as they had this tradition of eldest son being baptized as a sikh. Wussup 5th cousin.

By any chance did you test with the v5 chip on 23andMe?

Tomar
05-23-2019, 09:03 PM
By any chance did you test with the v5 chip on 23andMe?

What's V5 chip on 23andMe. I havent kept up with developments. I downloaded my raw data to Harappa Ancestry project and Dodecad ancestry project a few years ago and read some blogs and lost interest .

aaronbee2010
05-23-2019, 09:33 PM
What's V5 chip on 23andMe. I havent kept up with developments. I downloaded my raw data to Harappa Ancestry project and Dodecad ancestry project a few years ago and read some blogs and lost interest .

Can't say I blame you. I've lost interest on too many things in my life to count and the only reason I've stuck around here is the ridiculous amount of time and money I've spent on various tests, because there's a worryingly sparse amount of information on Y-DNA haplogroup R2, let alone R2a.

23andMe have used various genotyping chips (what they use to lock onto certain positions of the genome known to have an exceptionally high mutation rate, and therefore have medical/ancestral significance. The reason I asked this is that the current chip (v5) is the only chip that tests for L295, a very significant SNP within R2a. R2a2b1b2b-L295 is by far the most numerous subclade of R2a in every part of South Asia, with an exceptional dominance in South India, probably owing to its longer history within the subcontinent, entering around 8-10k years ago alongside J2b2a2-Z2432, with the strongest cluster of both subclades being around Bengal.

All older versions of 23andMe only tested for L266, so somebody with a Y-DNA result of R-L266 wouldn't have any way of finding out what his L295 status is.

You can check that chip version was used to produce your results by accessing your account settings and scrolling down to where it says "Genotyping Chip Version" and seeing what version was used.

Hope this helps.

Tomar
05-24-2019, 01:05 AM
Can't say I blame you. I've lost interest on too many things in my life to count and the only reason I've stuck around here is the ridiculous amount of time and money I've spent on various tests, because there's a worryingly sparse amount of information on Y-DNA haplogroup R2, let alone R2a.

23andMe have used various genotyping chips (what they use to lock onto certain positions of the genome known to have an exceptionally high mutation rate, and therefore have medical/ancestral significance. The reason I asked this is that the current chip (v5) is the only chip that tests for L295, a very significant SNP within R2a. R2a2b1b2b-L295 is by far the most numerous subclade of R2a in every part of South Asia, with an exceptional dominance in South India, probably owing to its longer history within the subcontinent, entering around 8-10k years ago alongside J2b2a2-Z2432, with the strongest cluster of both subclades being around Bengal.

All older versions of 23andMe only tested for L266, so somebody with a Y-DNA result of R-L266 wouldn't have any way of finding out what his L295 status is.

You can check that chip version was used to produce your results by accessing your account settings and scrolling down to where it says "Genotyping Chip Version" and seeing what version was used.

Hope this helps.

It's version 3. paternal haplogroup is R2-L266..but nothing more

aaronbee2010
05-24-2019, 09:55 AM
It's version 3. paternal haplogroup is R2-L266..but nothing more

You appear to come under R2a-M124 (23andMe suck, so all the chips before v5 didn't have the M479 mutation on their tree, anyone who was M479+ and M124+ would've been assigned R (R-M207)).

Back then, you would've had to have been M124+ to receive a result of R-L266.

You can confirm this by looking for "i3000014" in your 23andMe text file (the in-site browser sucks) and the letter at the end of the line (genotype) should be A (A = M124+, G = M124-).

As you haven't tested with v5 (I don't recommend testing with v5!), your L295 status is currently unknown.

prashantvaidwan
05-25-2019, 12:22 PM
That 5th cousin and HRP0131 are the same person, and that's me. Sorry came up on this thread. I am a hindu Jat but my grandmother was sikh as they had this tradition of eldest son being baptized as a sikh. Wussup 5th cousin.
Probably you are from West up? Jat Tomars are concentrated around baraut, a belt of 84 villages.

parasar
05-25-2019, 07:02 PM
Probably you are from West up? Jat Tomars are concentrated around baraut, a belt of 84 villages.

A typical chaurasia number!
It has been with us for a long long time - see eg. 84k (?!) stupas with the Buddh's ashes built by Asok.

Tomar
05-27-2019, 02:26 AM
Probably you are from West up? Jat Tomars are concentrated around baraut, a belt of 84 villages.

You are right.