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vineviz
08-12-2012, 03:36 PM
The R1a* project at FTDNA has a collection of haplotypes for men who are M420+ SRY10831.2-

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1asterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

So far, we have two tight clusters of primarily Western European men that fit this group. Based on our STR phylogeny, it seems that both clusters share a common ancestor that R1a1 does not share. Thus, there should be a uniting SNP awaiting discovery.

31

DMXX
08-12-2012, 04:12 PM
Most of the R1a*-M420 men have tested to 67 STR's, so the trends seen here are highly suggestive of the actual phylogenetic structure.

I noted from the Project Results that most of these men are of European descent. Would you agree the current results are an example of sampling bias at work, given Underhill et al. found most of their R1a-M420 (xR1a1-SRY10831.2) in West Asia and adjacent regions rather than Europe despite analysing thousands of haplotypes (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf)?

In that regard, I do wonder where the eastern R1a*-M420 samples would fit cluster-wise here.

vineviz
08-12-2012, 04:20 PM
I noted from the Project Results that most of these men are of European descent. Would you agree the current results are an example of sampling bias at work, given Underhill et al. found most of their R1a-M420 (xR1a1-SRY10831.2) in West Asia and adjacent regions rather than Europe despite analysing thousands of haplotypes (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf)?
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Yes, that is my conclusion.

The lack of Jewish and Arabic samples is vexing, though, and I think it is possible the common ancestor of the two clusters was himself European.

Timothy
10-21-2013, 09:30 AM
R1a* group member Fernandes has been patiently waiting 8 months to be grouped in with his matches in the Project.

Ahaddad
01-19-2014, 10:56 PM
I'm arab and tested r1a*

Humanist
01-19-2014, 11:26 PM
I'm arab and tested r1a*

Ahaddad, with all due respect, your paternal line is not "Arab." At least not genetically. Whether you wish to identify as "Arab" is your choice. Your father is a Chaldean Catholic from N Iraq, and appears to be very similar to me, and other Assyrians, autosomally.

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 12:14 AM
Ahaddad, with all due respect, your paternal line is not "Arab." At least not genetically. Whether you wish to identify as "Arab" is your choice. Your father is a Chaldean Catholic from N Iraq, and appears to be very similar to me, and other Assyrians, autosomally.

It's not likely R1a* is a Chaldean line either though.

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 12:22 AM
I wonder what the origin of that upstream Tibetan R1a was.

Rathna
01-20-2014, 12:47 AM
I wonder what the origin of that upstream Tibetan R1a was.

I have spoken so long about Haddad's haplotype, which is similar to the European R1a-M420*, but with some differences so it was difficult at a first sight to choose between R1a-M420* and R-V88+. Thus probably this is the R1a-M420 line we find in the Iranian region. We did know that there were some R1a-M420*, but we didn't (and don't) know their haplotype.
To find R1a-M420* in the Indian region would be a surprise, because we haven't found that haplogroup so far, this was one of the reason for that I supposed that R1a was born in Europe and all the Indian R* were discovered after to be R2.
Anyway every result is good for our research.

Humanist
01-20-2014, 03:03 AM
It's not likely R1a* is a Chaldean line either though.

After the fall of Babylon, Mesopotamia was ruled, off and on, by Indo-Iranian speaking peoples for ~1000 years. Plenty of time for some "Indo-Iranian" lines to have entered the communities who spoke (and continue to speak) eastern varieties of Aramaic.

Ahaddad
01-20-2014, 02:20 PM
I have spoken so long about Haddad's haplotype, which is similar to the European R1a-M420*, but with some differences so it was difficult at a first sight to choose between R1a-M420* and R-V88+. Thus probably this is the R1a-M420 line we find in the Iranian region. We did know that there were some R1a-M420*, but we didn't (and don't) know their haplotype.
To find R1a-M420* in the Indian region would be a surprise, because we haven't found that haplogroup so far, this was one of the reason for that I supposed that R1a was born in Europe and all the Indian R* were discovered after to be R2.
Anyway every result is good for our research.

So my R1a was from Iran? make more sense than europe

Rathna
01-20-2014, 02:52 PM
So my R1a was from Iran? make more sense than europe

This is the Western European haplotype (from the Isles to Italy):

73823 Pickering England R1
13 24 14 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 21 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 12-13-15-16 11 11 19-22 15 16 18 16 33-40 12 11 11 8 15-16 8 12 11 8 12 11 12 22-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 21 13 12 11 12 11 11 12 12

This is yours (and of your father's, and, strangely, you have had one mutation but in one of the slowest mutating markers: DYS454):
298933 Haddad Lebanon R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11
310205 Al-Haddad Iraq R1
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

But Europe has another haplotype:
265982 FERNANDES Unknown Origin R1a
13 24 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 12-13-15-15 11 12 19-22 15 16 18 16 33-40 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 12 11 8 12 11 12 22-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 21 13 12 11 12 11 11 12 12 36 14 9 15 12 28 26 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 15 24 13 11 10 20 16 18 14 23 15 13 15 26 13 26 18 10 15 17 9 11 11

and, above all, the Yeagers:
140814 Yeager Germany R1
14 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 12 25 15 20 31 11-12-15-16 11 10 19-23 15 16 16 18 36-37 12 12 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 20-20 16 11 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 15 12 28 24 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 13 11 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 16 23 15 11 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 18 9 11 11

We'll see, from the next haplotypes all over the world, if Europe derives from Middle East or Middle East from Europe.

Tomasso29
01-20-2014, 04:55 PM
It's not likely R1a* is a Chaldean line either though.

Since when did haplogroups become identifiers of ethnicity?

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 05:02 PM
Since when did haplogroups become identifiers of ethnicity?

I just meant the possibility of his line coming from Arabs shouldn't be ruled out. Upstream and downstream R1a are more common in the Gulf than Mesopotamian groups especially ones such as Assyrians and Chaldeans.

Ahaddad
01-20-2014, 05:06 PM
This is the Western European haplotype (from the Isles to Italy):

73823 Pickering England R1
13 24 14 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 21 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 12-13-15-16 11 11 19-22 15 16 18 16 33-40 12 11 11 8 15-16 8 12 11 8 12 11 12 22-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 21 13 12 11 12 11 11 12 12

This is yours (and of your father's, and, strangely, you have had one mutation but in one of the slowest mutating markers: DYS454):
298933 Haddad Lebanon R1b1a2
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 11 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11
310205 Al-Haddad Iraq R1
13 23 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 31 12-12-15-17 10 11 19-23 15 17 17 17 35-37 12 11

But Europe has another haplotype:
265982 FERNANDES Unknown Origin R1a
13 24 14 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 20 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 12-13-15-15 11 12 19-22 15 16 18 16 33-40 13 11 11 8 15-16 8 12 11 8 12 11 12 22-22 15 10 12 12 15 8 14 24 21 13 12 11 12 11 11 12 12 36 14 9 15 12 28 26 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 12 11 10 11 11 30 13 15 24 13 11 10 20 16 18 14 23 15 13 15 26 13 26 18 10 15 17 9 11 11

and, above all, the Yeagers:
140814 Yeager Germany R1
14 23 15 10 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 29 15 9-9 11 12 25 15 20 31 11-12-15-16 11 10 19-23 15 16 16 18 36-37 12 12 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 11 11 12 20-20 16 11 12 12 15 8 12 22 21 13 12 11 13 11 11 12 12 35 15 9 15 12 28 24 19 12 12 12 12 10 9 13 11 10 11 11 30 12 12 24 13 11 9 18 15 18 16 23 15 11 16 25 12 24 19 10 15 18 9 11 11

We'll see, from the next haplotypes all over the world, if Europe derives from Middle East or Middle East from Europe.


Yes, this mutation can change the haplogroup? For example i can be a R1b1a2 and my dad R1a? My opinion this subclade from Middle East because we see little examples in Europe and much Data, i think Rathna say that have one Arab i think from Oman or Qatar that have this haplotype also.

Rathna
01-20-2014, 05:46 PM
Yes, this mutation can change the haplogroup? For example i can be a R1b1a2 and my dad R1a? My opinion this subclade from Middle East because we see little examples in Europe and much Data, i think Rathna say that have one Arab i think from Oman or Qatar that have this haplotype also.

Of course this isn't possible: you are the son of your father and you belong to the same haplogroup (R1a) and to the same haplotype.

I wrote this for you, and from this I answered also to the other questions:

It seems that Haddad's haplotype (the father's one) is closer to that of the Yeagers than to the Western European ones and that the most ancient value of DYS454 was 12, whereas Western European mutated it to 11 and only from Haddad father to Haddad son this mutation happened again.
The separation from the Yeagers and the Western Europeans is about 3,500 years, that, if we multiplied for 2.5, would become about 9,000. The separation from Yeagers and Haddad could be 2,300 years, and probably, been more linked, not so much more for back mutations.
Someone said that the European R1a-M420* came to the Isles from Roman soldiers of East European or Caucasian origin. What to say? All is possible, but with which proof? And that haplotype (with many mutations) is also found in Italy, in the mountainous Abruzzo.
N78270 Italy R1
13 24 14 10 12-13 12 12 13 13 13 28 18 9-9 11 11 24 14 20 30 12-12-15-16
Of course many other haplotypes are needed to say something more careful.

P.S. Unfortunately we know that that Arab R1a-M420* exists, but we don't know his markers values (STRs), but only his SNPs from Geno 2.0. Of course it would be very interesting to have his haplotype.

Rathna
01-20-2014, 06:11 PM
This case could be interesting:
M8363 R1a R-M420 M173+, M420+, M343-, SRY10831.2-, V88-
M8363 Unknown Origin R1a
13 23 17 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 32 12-12-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 16 34-37 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12

But which is his origin?

Ahaddad
01-20-2014, 06:12 PM
What about this? Is about R1a-M420*?

R-M420 (R1a)[edit]

R-M420, defined by the mutation M420, has two branches: R-SRY1532.2, defined by the mutation SRY1532.2, which makes up the vast majority; and R-M420*, the paragroup, defined as M420 positive but SRY1532.2 negative. (In the 2002 scheme, this SRY1532.2 negative minority was one part of the relatively rare group classified as the paragroup R1*.) Mutations understood to be equivalent to M420 include M449, M511, M513, L62, and L63.(Underhill 2009 and ISOGG 2012)

Only isolated samples of the new paragroup R-M420* were found by Underhill 2009, mostly in the Middle East and Caucasus: 1/121 Omanis, 2/150 Iranians, 1/164 in the United Arab Emirates, and 3/612 in Turkey. Testing of 7224 more males in 73 other Eurasian populations showed no sign of this category.(Underhill 2009)

from wikipedia.

parasar
01-20-2014, 06:50 PM
This case could be interesting:
M8363 R1a R-M420 M173+, M420+, M343-, SRY10831.2-, V88-
M8363 Unknown Origin R1a
13 23 17 11 12-12 12 12 12 13 13 30 16 9-9 11 12 26 15 19 32 12-12-16-17 11 11 19-23 15 17 19 16 34-37 12 11 9 8 15-16 8 11 10 8 10 11 12 22-22 14 10 12 12 14 8 12 23 21 14 12 12 13 11 11 12 12

But which is his origin?
He is likely Arab. All these haplotypes are very close, indicating a recent age with a young common SNP under M420.

Ahaddad
01-20-2014, 07:08 PM
He is likely Arab. All these haplotypes are very close, indicating a recent age with a young common SNP under M420.

This haplogroup and subclade it's close to me? is the same haplogroup and subclade?

parasar
01-20-2014, 07:48 PM
This haplogroup and subclade it's close to me? is the same haplogroup and subclade?

Same clade yes, and likely the same as yet unidentified haplogroup. All of you are derivatives of DYS385 12,12. As is 287026 (from Turkey). http://www.familytreedna.com/public/RAsterisk/default.aspx?section=yresults

Is it confirmed that 298933 is M269+? - as that seems phylogenetically wrong.
298933 (Youssef Abdalla Haddad, 1877-1945) R1b1a2 R-M269 M269+

Humanist
01-20-2014, 08:16 PM
I just meant the possibility of his line coming from Arabs shouldn't be ruled out. Upstream and downstream R1a are more common in the Gulf than Mesopotamian groups especially ones such as Assyrians and Chaldeans.

That is a possibility. In particular, as you say, from the Persian Gulf region. However, I would not call them "Arab," but rather Arabian. The word Arab suggests a relatively recent (i.e. Islamic era*) addition to our gene pool. Arab Muslims and Christians/Jews were forbidden to mix. A Christian could convert to Islam, but conversion from Islam to Christianity was forbidden.

*


The vanquished non-Muslim peoples are granted security for their life and possessions, as well as a relative self-autonomous administration and limited religious rights according to the modalities of the conquest. These rights are subject to two conditions: the payment of a poll tax (the jizya) and submission to the provisions of Islamic law.

The concept of toleration is linked to a number of discriminatory obligations in the economic, religious and social fields, imposed by the shari'a on the dhimmis. The transgression by the dhimmis of some of these obligations, abolished their protection, and threaten them with death or slavery. Dhimmis suffered many legal disabilities intended to reduce them to a condition of humiliation, segregation and discrimination. These rules, established from the eighth to ninth centuries by the founders of the four schools of Islamic law, set the pattern of the Muslim community's social behavior toward dhimmis.

http://www.dhimmitude.org/


ADDENDUM:

And, just for the record, the ancient Chaldean homeland was in southern Mesopotamia:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/Faces/Chaldean__sealand.jpg


"Cities of Sumer." I have added what I believe are roughly accurate locations for the three main Chaldean groups:

http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g326/dok101/chaldea_sumer.jpg

ADW_1981
01-20-2014, 09:00 PM
M8009
M8363
203239
N114240

These are all R1a*-M420 Arabs in the R Arab project. It's quite possible they arrived in "Arabian" lands via southern Iran or thereabouts. You can see how close these haplotypes are to R1b ones. For some reason, the last one's haplotype is hidden. It's a little hasty by Rathna to assume they are ancient west European, but more likely Indo-Iranian (along with the rest of the R1a1a in the project).

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 09:05 PM
M8009
M8363
203239
N114240

These are all R1a*-M420 Arabs in the R Arab project. It's quite possible they arrived in "Arabian" lands via southern Iran or thereabouts. You can see how close these haplotypes are to R1b ones. For some reason, the last one's haplotype is hidden. It's a little hasty by Rathna to assume they are ancient west European, but more likely Indo-Iranian (along with the rest of the R1a1a in the project).
I agree with everything but this upstream R1a was likely present in Iran before Indo-Iranians migrated there but they were probably a Indo-Iranian speaking before entering the Arabian gene pool.

Mehrdad
01-20-2014, 09:11 PM
I agree with everything but this upstream R1a was likely present in Iran before Indo-Iranians migrated there but they were probably a Indo-Iranian speaking before entering the Arabian gene pool.

So what time periods are we looking at? Early, middle or late Neolithic?

parasar
01-20-2014, 09:41 PM
I agree with everything but this upstream R1a was likely present in Iran before Indo-Iranians migrated there but they were probably a Indo-Iranian speaking before entering the Arabian gene pool.

If that were the case, they would have differentiated more. They have diverged earlier, but the group as a whole is much younger than lines such as M458.

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 09:54 PM
If that were the case, they would have differentiated more. They have diverged earlier, but the group as a whole is much younger than lines such as M458.

We will see. I think almost all Andronovo/Scythian R1a will turn out to be Z93+ with the occasional Z282+ or Z280+ sample. The lack of R1a* in Central and South Asia rules out an association with Indo-Iranians.

parasar
01-20-2014, 10:14 PM
We will see. I think almost all Andronovo/Scythian R1a will turn out to be Z93+ with the occasional Z282+ or Z280+ sample. The lack of R1a* in Central and South Asia rules out an association with Indo-Iranians.

They are all very close, whether Z93 or Z283 we do not know.

Pairwise comparisons of the haplotypes showed that except for S07, all the ancient male specimens bore closely related allelic profies, differing at most at six loci (on the 17 tested) and always by one-step mutation only

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 10:20 PM
They are all very close, whether Z93 or Z283 we do not know.

Z283 is nonexistent in Asia for the most part. I wouldn't old out too much hope on Z283 if I were you.

parasar
01-20-2014, 10:36 PM
Z283 is nonexistent in Asia for the most part. I wouldn't old out too much hope on Z283 if I were you.

I don't know if they are Z283 - mentioned it only as you felt there might be an occasional Z283 ("Z282+ or Z280+") sample.

Ahaddad
01-20-2014, 10:42 PM
I'am z283??? How is common this marker?

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 10:47 PM
I don't know if they are Z283 - mentioned it only as you felt there might be an occasional Z283 ("Z282+ or Z280+") sample.

The paper you were quoting was talking about Andronovo? I think that was entirely Z93. I added the Z282 and Z280 comment for Timber Grave and Tagar respectively.

newtoboard
01-20-2014, 10:48 PM
I'am z283??? How is common this marker?

No you are upstream of that.

Rathna
01-23-2014, 10:38 AM
I am seeing that "the SUN child" has been banned, I hope it is temporarily. Of course we all have to learn to discuss by a scientific point of view, i.e. to hypothesize proofs which may demonstrate a thesis or another. He could be very useful to our discussion, being R1a* (surely SRY10831.1 C, thus ancestral: I have his 23andMe data), and with his STRs could contribute to ascertain the origin of R1a* haplogroup, being a Kurd with a complex familial history around the Caucasus.
Of course for testing him (amongst the Kurdish FTDNA Project, the Iranian one or others) some administrator could also promote a subscription.

Smilelover
08-29-2016, 01:21 PM
i am from Yemen, with same result are there any new news to the subject :)