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lyleswart
10-15-2017, 05:59 PM
Hello All,

I'm new to this group and to Y-DNA. I've been able to follow the paper trail for my Murphy ancestors (matriarchal grandfather) to 1836 in New Brunswick. There the paper trail ends (thus far!). My uncle, Jim Murphy, took the ftdna Y-DNA67 test. The results came back that my Murphy paternal line belongs to the I1-M253 haplogroup. There are only 2 matches, neither very helpful. We have not ordered ftdna's test of 174 SNPs related to M253.

I've read as much as I can about M-253 and the likely ancient origins / migration routes. I've also read research suggesting that about 80% of Irish men belong to the R1b haplogroup; I1 is apparently about 6% of the Irish male population. (I'd image I1-253 is even less prevalent in Ireland)

I'm not sure how to proceed from here. Is anyone aware of research showing the geographical areas in Ireland/Scotland/England associated with I1 or even better I1-M253? Or where I could research the Murphy surname connection with I1-M253? (I'm not sure how to participate more fully in the Murphy Y-DNA project.) Does anyone have suggestions how I could find more matches for my uncle's Y-DNA profile? Finally, how worthwhile would it be to purchase the 174 SNP package for my uncle at this point?

All thoughts welcome and appreciated!

Best,
Lyle

deadly77
10-15-2017, 07:10 PM
Hi Lyle,

Welcome to the forum. Congratulations on figuring out I1/I-M253 - they pretty much mean the same thing - I1 is the older designation and I-M253 is the newer deisgnation. There is an overview of I-M253 at Eupedia which contains some background information and an overview of how the subclades of I-M253 are organized: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I1_Y-DNA.shtml

A lot of the active work is in subclade projects further downstream from I-M253, but if you join the I1 Y-DNA project, the admins may be able to offer a prediction of subclade based on your Y-STR results that you already have. Go here while logged into your account: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/yDNA_I1

There is also a predictor from Nevgen that often works pretty well. That can be found here: http://www.nevgen.org - just make sure that you have the "Subclades of I" option selected or it will just tell you that the result is I1.

The reason I make these two recommendations is that you may be able to use your uncle's Y-STR results to get a prediction of SNP and you might be able to just test 1 SNP to confirm or be able to pick a SNP pack that is more focused on the area that you want to be looking at.

spruithean
10-15-2017, 07:12 PM
Welcome to Anthrogenica and welcome to the Haplogroup I1 family!

Haplogroup I1 is generally distributed in areas that saw a fair amount of Germanic settlement or movement. Most people who are Haplogroup I1 (I-M253) belong to the subgroup I1a (I-DF29).

19289

I would be patient with the matches for your Murphy I1 line, it could be that your haplotype is unique, or your maternal genetic kin haven't had their Y-DNA tested yet. You could try inputting your uncle's Y-STR haplotype into the NEVGEN calculator and it could give a rough estimation of what specific I1 haplogroup you belong to. You could also have your uncle's kit join the Haplogroup I1 DNA Project at FTDNA, they will organize his kit into whicher group it best fits and they can advise which SNPs to test for.

EDIT: Deadly77 beat me to it! :biggrin1:

lyleswart
10-16-2017, 07:41 PM
Hi All,

First off, much thanks to both deadly77 and to spruithean for their quick and thoughtful responses! Much appreciated!

I followed through on both of your advice and entered my uncles data into the NEVGEN predictor. I did select the "Subclades of I" option.

The results were ... interesting. 3.6% were returned as belonging to I1 DF29> Y18697> Y10633. However, 96.4% returned as an "unsupportable subclade".

The accompanying warning said: "Values of fitness (or relative fitness) are rather small, so results are not too confident. It is possible that its haplogroup is not supported by current version of predictor, or haplotype really belong to some supported haplogroup, but it is rare or too distant branch, which is not sufficiently represented in samples used by predictor."

So, it seems sample size is too small to make a stable determination? Or, is this a rare subclade the hasn't really been mapped yet?

I have joined the I1 as you've both suggested and see if there are any ideas from the admins. So, if I join the group from the ftdna dashboard page, the admins will have access to the data - right? Wasn't sure, as haven't heard anything or seen a place to participate in the Murphy Project. Should I reach out to an administrator at the I1 group?

Much thanks - any other suggestions most welcome!

Lyle

spruithean
10-16-2017, 07:45 PM
Hi All,

First off, much thanks to both deadly77 and to spruithean for their quick and thoughtful responses! Much appreciated!

I followed through on both of your advice and entered my uncles data into the NEVGEN predictor. I did select the "Subclades of I" option.

The results were ... interesting. 3.6% were returned as belonging to I1 DF29> Y18697> Y10633. However, 96.4% returned as an "unsupportable subclade".

The accompanying warning said: "Values of fitness (or relative fitness) are rather small, so results are not too confident. It is possible that its haplogroup is not supported by current version of predictor, or haplotype really belong to some supported haplogroup, but it is rare or too distant branch, which is not sufficiently represented in samples used by predictor."

So, it seems sample size is too small to make a stable determination? Or, is this a rare subclade the hasn't really been mapped yet?

I have joined the I1 as you've both suggested and see if there are any ideas from the admins. So, if I join the group from the ftdna dashboard page, the admins will have access to the data - right? Wasn't sure, as haven't heard anything or seen a place to participate in the Murphy Project. Should I reach out to an administrator at the I1 group?

Much thanks - any other suggestions most welcome!

Lyle

Did you make sure to enter STR results for paired STRs like DYS464 = 11-14-15-15 or CDY = 35-38?

The I1 admins should be able to have access to the data so long as you have the approproate settings filled in.

10-16-2017, 08:28 PM
Hi All,

First off, much thanks to both deadly77 and to spruithean for their quick and thoughtful responses! Much appreciated!

I followed through on both of your advice and entered my uncles data into the NEVGEN predictor. I did select the "Subclades of I" option.

The results were ... interesting. 3.6% were returned as belonging to I1 DF29> Y18697> Y10633. However, 96.4% returned as an "unsupportable subclade".

The accompanying warning said: "Values of fitness (or relative fitness) are rather small, so results are not too confident. It is possible that its haplogroup is not supported by current version of predictor, or haplotype really belong to some supported haplogroup, but it is rare or too distant branch, which is not sufficiently represented in samples used by predictor."

So, it seems sample size is too small to make a stable determination? Or, is this a rare subclade the hasn't really been mapped yet?

I have joined the I1 as you've both suggested and see if there are any ideas from the admins. So, if I join the group from the ftdna dashboard page, the admins will have access to the data - right? Wasn't sure, as haven't heard anything or seen a place to participate in the Murphy Project. Should I reach out to an administrator at the I1 group?

Much thanks - any other suggestions most welcome!

Lyle

What about this?
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/MURPHY%20DNA-All%20Spellings/

lyleswart
10-16-2017, 08:29 PM
Hi Spruithean,

Yes, I entered the paired data, as requested. Even entered the data twice just to make sure. I'll email an administrator. Thanks!

deadly77
10-17-2017, 06:47 AM
I've seen this from some people's data - Nevgen is a good predictor but it can sometimes be off - it gets most of it's data from extrapolating the Y-STRs from FTDNA projects to confirmed SNPs (the ones coloured in green on the project list). So if there isn't a SNP that matches your STR dataset, then it will struggle. I guess it's likely that your uncle is in a subclade where there is not much data yet. It's usually best to try this approach first and you can narrow down the field a little, but we have tried that and that didn't get you further along.

Yes, the I1 admins will be able to see your data since you've joined the project, and they may try and place you based on your STRs. You could also look at your STR matches and see if they have another designation of SNP other than I-M253 which may give some clues. There are a few options for SNP testing that you could consider.

Best bang for your buck/pound/euro/etc. in my opinion is YSEQ. They are a German company that does a bit of a niche market in SNP testing - of single SNPs and SNP panels. They're cheaper than FTDNA for single SNPs ($18 vs $39) and the turnaround is a lot faster. In terms of panels, they have a rather comprehensive I1 superclade panel for $99, details of which can be found here: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=43455&osCsid=9b6906feda0e8a112d9ad136331cf822 - however, the YSEQ results can't be imported into your FTDNA profile. Most admins are ok with that and accept data from YSEQ.

Next option is to try one of the FTDNA SNP Packs as you mentioned in your original post. These get a bit more useful the further along you can start but as your Nevgen results were a bit inconclusive probably best to start at the I-M253 SNP pack that you mentioned. I think it's less comprehensive than the YSEQ I1 superclade panel but they are the same price and the FTDNA SNP Pack would keep all of your results in one place. And you wouldn't need to get your uncle to submit a new sample since they already have it. Although in my opinion, you should ask him before ordering more tests on his behalf.

Of course, if you're from a really rare subclade, SNP packs may not get you very far along the tree. If you want to go all out, what a lot of people are doing these days are Next Generation Sequencing (NGS) tests. These remove a lot of the guesswork and also provide novel variants not yet discovered that can really expand the Y-chromosome haplotree. There is a lot more data from these tests and they are considerably more expensive - most are above $500, so it's a big investment. However, the overall outlay can be less than testing via individual SNPs and SNP Packs when you add it up at the end.

The main players in the NGS test with regard to the Y chromosome are FTDNA's Big Y (where you already have a kit); Full Genomes Corp's YElite and Whole Genome Sequencing tests at https://www.fullgenomes.com/ and YSEQ has started offering a Whole Genome Test here https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=29&products_id=42468&osCsid=9b6906feda0e8a112d9ad136331cf822

The companies all have their own sub-forum on here, so it's worth reading about other people's experiences and opinions. But ultimately it comes down to what you want to find out and what your resources are. With regard to the last point, FTDNA often has it's largest sale between Thanksgiving and New Year, so it's worth waiting for the discounts.

lyleswart
10-17-2017, 06:32 PM
Hello Deadly77,

What a rich, thoughtful response. Thanks so much! I appreciate all the resources you've outlined; I didn't know about YSEQ. Yes, FTDNA's Big Y is ultimately where I probably need to go ... not inexpensive, though (thanks for Holiday Sale tip!). I have emailed two of the I1 administrators, and am awaiting a reply. I think I'll wait to hear their thoughts before deciding next steps. Finally, your observation is a good one I think: it's likely there are not many other folks in the FTDNA database with my uncle's Y-DNA (perhaps explaining the nearly nonexistent matches). Thanks again, I will keep the group posted! (And of course ask my uncle prior to more tests - big believer in informed consent!)