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Humanist
08-18-2013, 06:05 PM
Any ideas on its origin(s)? Too bad they (Herrera et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html#top)) did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men.

From Herrera et al. (SAS = Sasun)


ARV GRD Van SAS HG
5.5% 4.2% 7.8% 2.9% E1b1
0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% F
10.9% 6.3% 7.8% 12.5% G
2.7% 8.3% 1.9% 0.0% I
14.5% 4.2% 13.6% 9.6% J1
23.6% 32.3% 29.1% 17.3% J2
0.9% 1.0% 1.9% 3.8% L
0.0% 1.0% 0.0% 0.0% N
0.0% 0.0% 1.0% 0.0% Q1b
0.9% 5.2% 0.0% 1.0% R1a
37.3% 31.3% 32.0% 15.4% R1b
0.0% 0.0% 1.0% 17.3% R2
3.6% 6.3% 3.9% 20.2% T


I know that a good many folks assume that if there was a single "Mitanni Y-DNA haplogroup" it would be a variety of R1a, but how about the possibility of R2? How about both R1a and R2?

DMXX
08-18-2013, 07:43 PM
I analysed the Armenian R2a's privately when the data first came out. I inferred three main groups, with the middle constituting at two sub-groups;

Cluster A: DYS389I=13, DYS456=15, DYS385a=12. DYS385b=19, DYS458=20


DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA_H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635
Sasun_014 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25
Sasun_016 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25
Sasun_025 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25
Sasun_029 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25
Sasun_032 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25
Sasun_035 13 29 23 15 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 10 10 10 14 13 25
Sasun_044 13 29 23 15 14 12 19 20 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 11 25


Cluster B1: DYS389I=13, DYS456=16, DYS385a=18, DYS385b=18, DYS458=18


DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA_H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635
Sasun_005 13 29 23 16 14 18 18 18 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_009 13 29 23 16 14 18 18 18 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 12 25


Cluster B2: DYS389I=13, DYS456=16, DYS385a=12, DYS385b=18, DYS458=18


DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA_H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635
Sasun_003 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 10 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_010 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 10 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_024 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_028 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 10 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_042 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 10 10 10 14 12 25
Sasun_047 13 29 23 16 14 12 18 18 15 11 20 11 10 10 14 12 25


Cluster C: DYS389I=12, DYS456=15, DYS385a=11, DYS385b=21, DYS458=17, DYS437=16, DYS448=19, GATAT-H4=12, DYS391=9, DYS393=13, DYS635=28


DYS389I DYS389II DYS390 DYS456 DYS19 DYS385a DYS385b DYS458 DYS437 DYS438 DYS448 GATA_H4 DYS391 DYS392 DYS393 DYS439 DYS635
Sasun_055 12 29 23 15 14 11 21 17 16 11 19 12 9 10 13 10 28
Sasun_061 12 29 23 15 14 11 21 17 16 11 19 12 9 10 13 10 28
Sasun_066 12 29 23 15 14 11 21 17 16 11 19 12 9 10 13 10 28


Cluster C is clearly the most divergent from the others. It has some very peculiar values, such as DYS635=28. It's also worth noting Y-Predictor confirmed all of these are R2a1 (L295+) with a probability of at least 70% (Cluster C is 100%).

Based on this, Cluster C's unusual values relative to the others lead me to believe it's probably less indigenous to the Sasun area than the others. Perhaps it was brought westwards by the Mitanni or some other Indo-Iranian movement that might have picked up R2a along the way.

I don't think that proposition can extend to Clusters A-B2, as we see x-step mutations only only 4/17 STR's and GATA-H4 is either 10 or 11 across all, indicating their relationship's much closer. This also supports in-situ diversification in the Armenian highlands.

Having said all this, it's quite possible that Clusters A-B2 actually took the place of C here and could be the "foreign" group. It's near-impossible to assert either without more STR's and comparing with other populations.

parasar
08-19-2013, 02:13 AM
"Expansion times for haplogroups R1b, J2 and T were estimated from the eight STR loci dataset using the method described in Zhivotovsky et al32 and modified by Sengupta and collaborators."

Surprisingly low expansion times.
J2 Maximum Palestine 19.3 29/40 0.98080.0101 0.6740 7.81.5 9.93.2
R1b Maximum Jordan 9.2 16/20 0.97370.0250 0.4138 6.62.0 8.13.5

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/images/ejhg2011192f4.jpg

DMXX
08-19-2013, 09:14 AM
..

I do not understand the relevance of Y-DNA J2 and R1b data to this thread, unless you're suggesting R1b and/or J2 have some sort of indication of R2a's prominence in Sasun?

parasar
08-20-2013, 01:14 AM
I do not understand the relevance of Y-DNA J2 and R1b data to this thread, unless you're suggesting R1b and/or J2 have some sort of indication of R2a's prominence in Sasun?
No particular relevance as far as R1b is concerned, but when Humanist noted that they "did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men" I was trying to see if there were any clues from Sasun R1a and J2. R1a is almost missing in the Sasun, and their J2 is just ~2.2k old. But then I noticed that all calculated ages were surprisingly low in light of their using Sengupta modified Zhiv.

Tomasso29
12-20-2013, 03:35 PM
An interesting development has happened lately which may be related to this topic. Under the Armenian project a new R2a sample showed up:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?vgroup=armeniadnaproject&section=yresults

Kit 311331 is my closest match so far (15/67), after investigating further the sample turned out to be one of the last Armenian remnants from Sasun. In other words there's definitely some diversity in the R2a that exists in Sasun despite the smaller population number.

Humanist
06-23-2016, 10:53 PM
Any ideas on its origin(s)? Too bad they (Herrera et al. (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html#top)) did not calculate haplotype diversity, variance, etc. for the R2 men.

From Herrera et al. (SAS = Sasun)


ARV GRD Van SAS HG
5.5% 4.2% 7.8% 2.9% E1b1
0.0% 0.0% 0.0% 0.0% F
10.9% 6.3% 7.8% 12.5% G
2.7% 8.3% 1.9% 0.0% I
14.5% 4.2% 13.6% 9.6% J1
23.6% 32.3% 29.1% 17.3% J2
0.9% 1.0% 1.9% 3.8% L
0.0% 1.0% 0.0% 0.0% N
0.0% 0.0% 1.0% 0.0% Q1b
0.9% 5.2% 0.0% 1.0% R1a
37.3% 31.3% 32.0% 15.4% R1b
0.0% 0.0% 1.0% 17.3% R2
3.6% 6.3% 3.9% 20.2% T


I know that a good many folks assume that if there was a single "Mitanni Y-DNA haplogroup" it would be a variety of R1a, but how about the possibility of R2? How about both R1a and R2?

It is probably worth resurrecting this thread for a renewed discussion of the possible significance of the abundance of R2 observed among the Armenians of Sasun, in light of Lazaridis et al.