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msmarjoribanks
10-21-2017, 11:43 AM
Anyone interested in the various subclades of Kb or Kb2 specifically?

Background: when I tested I found out I was Kb2b, but had trouble finding out much about it. I have one 0 GD match on FTDNA, a 1 GD match, and a 2 GD match who was my only until recently. Based on the K project, it seems to be an uncommon subclade. I have looked at all the maps and stats regarding the prevalence of K in various places, but couldn't help wondering how it would look if more specific subclades were looked at.

A bit later I tested my father and discovered he too was a version of K2b, specifically K2b1a1a. He has more matches, but a number of them do seem to be distantly related (to go back to the same known ancestor, a woman in Suffolk in the 1500s), including possibly one of the 1 GD matches. So the larger numbers MAY just be related to the descendants of this woman in the US being quite prolific.

Anyway, based on the threads here it seems like K1 subclades are more common than the K2 ones, so I thought a broader thread focusing on K2 (and my own particular interest in K2b) might be interesting. I'm also in the process of learning about mtDNA, so will have questions about what sources/information is considered worthwhile.

msmarjoribanks
10-21-2017, 12:07 PM
More background/questions:

Years ago, way before knowing my own haplogroup, I read Seven Daughters of Eve. It appears that the dating for the haplogroups has been pushed back, which is why the claims that were being made in that book (and apparently by others at the same time) that most of the major European mtdna haplogroups had been in Europe from hunter-gatherer times are no longer the current thinking. This is also based on more testing of ancient DNA. Is this right, or am I missing something? (I don't want to get into anything controversial, but want to understand what is known and what the debates are.)

Eupedia gives the following information (subclades relevant to this thread are highlighted):

"Based on ancient DNA tests, haplogroup K appears to have been absent among the Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG) who occupied western and central Europe before the Neolithic period. The K1a, K1b and K2a subclades were found among Early Neolithic farmers (ENF) from the Near East, and subsequently among Early European farmers (EEF).

In contrast, the K1c, K2b and K2c subclades never been found among Neolithic farmers to date and do not appear to have Near Eastern roots. They are most common in eastern Europe today, where have originated during the Mesolithic, among Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHG), and would have spread with Y-haplogroup R1a during the Bronze Age to Germanic countries and Central Asia, where they are also found at relatively high frequencies.

Also: "It is now certain that haplogroup K was a major maternal lineage of Neolithic farmers and herders before they entered Europe" -- based on tests, apparently at higher percentages than now, but again this is not the Kb2 subclades in which I am especially interested.

Eupedia quotations from: https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_K_mtDNA.shtml

Again, curious if these are strongly debated and controversial claims or just a statement of what is well-accepted based on current evidence (with the understanding that there is still a lot we don't know).

So K2 would have come into existence at a time/place where it could split into these two different major sources of later European migration, one associated with Neolithic farmers from the Near East (K2a) and another as part of a migration of EHG from farther north in Eurasia (K2b and K2c)?

msmarjoribanks
10-21-2017, 12:30 PM
One more before I stop monologuing. Hope this is not impossible to read.

From the database at Jean Manco's Ancestral Journeys site, here are the K2s I saw from the pre-Iron Age categories:

European Neolithic

Vinca Hungary Szederkeny-Kukorica-dulo [SEKU10a / I1896] M 5320-5080 BC 245617 G2a2b2a1a K2a
LBK? Germany Karsdorf [KAR 55] 5000 BC ? K2a5
Late Danubian Neolithic Poland Racot, Greater Poland [R18_1] F 4200 ± 55 cal. BC K2a
Globular Amphora Poland Kowal 14 [feature 238] 2850-2570 BC K2a

Ancient European of the Copper and Bronze Ages

Globular Amphora Poland Kowal, Kuyavia region 2850-2570 BC K2a*
Corded Ware Germany Esperstedt [I1544/ESP 36] M 2500-2050 BC R1a L63, L146 K2b2
Bell Beaker England West Deeping, Lincolnshire M 2289–2041 cal BCE 610725 L21 > DF13 K2a
Corded Ware Germany Karsdorf [KAR 53] 2260-2203 BC K2a5
Unetice Germany Eulau [EUL 47] 2133-2080 BC K2
Nordic LN Sweden Fredriksberg [RISE97] M 2025-1885 BC 580,367 K2a5
England Hexham Golf Course, Northumberland [I2609 / MOA 1956.46 Box 136] F 2023–1772 cal BCE 273312 K2a
Andronovo Russia Solenoozernaïa I, burial 29 [S15] Blue or green eyes ? 1800-1400 BC K2b

So the only Kb2 in these lists seems to be:

Corded Ware Germany Esperstedt [I1544/ESP 36] M 2500-2050 BC R1a L63, L146 K2b2
Andronovo Russia Solenoozernaïa I, burial 29 [S15] Blue or green eyes ? 1800-1400 BC K2b

msmarjoribanks
11-24-2017, 10:34 PM
Guess no one else is interested in K2b at the moment?

I am slowly figuring out more about mtDNA and have been reading more of the articles/studies and also reading some of the general stuff compiled at Eupedia, as well as going through the ancient DNA at Jean Manco's site more carefully. This may be a retread in part.

This article: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-11629-8 repeats what I quoted from Eupedia above, that K2b and K2c have never been found among Neolithic farmers to date (as well as not among hunter gatherers in Europe before their arrival, of course).

Focusing only on K2b, there don't seem to be many ancient DNA samples yet, although an intriguing K2b2 Corded Ware sample that I'd love to see more specifics about.

From haplogroup.org (Encyclopedia of mtDNA Origins):

Haplogroup K is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 22,300 and 31,000 years (Behar et al., 2012b). Origin: Eurasia, Arabian Peninsula, & Levant

Haplogroup K2 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 16,700 and 25,900 years (Behar et al., 2012b). Origin: Eurasia, Arabian Peninsula, & Levant

Haplogroup K2b is a branch on the maternal tree of humanity. Age: 14,438.8 ± 4,655.0; CI=95% (Behar et al., 2012b)
Origin: Eurasia, Arabian Peninsula, & Levant

Haplogroup K2b1 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 1,000 and 12,900 years (Behar et al., 2012b).

Haplogroup K2b2 is a branch on the maternal tree of human kind. Its age is between 1,700 and 8,500 years (Behar et al., 2012b).

msmarjoribanks
11-24-2017, 10:47 PM
Breaking these up to just have it be readable, even if it means serial posting.

Looking at the K project at FTDNA (which I know not all with K test results are in, as I'm the only K2b2), it's clear that K2 is a lot less common than K1, and K2b seems to be significantly less common than K2a, so I guess it's not that surprising that there aren't many ancient samples yet.

Quick summary of results (my numbers are estimates as I don't have the results officially and got tired of counting):

A little more than 4000 people in the project, about 82% of which (roughly 3275) are K1 or descendant haplogroups. About 742 are K2 (or about 18%).

Of the K2s, about 545 (or 73%) are K2a, and only 196 (or about 26%) are K2b or its descendants.

This means that K2b makes up roughly 5% of K.

Quick numbers summaries:

K2b (10)
K2b1 (10)
K2b1a (33)
K2b1a1 (59)
K2b1a1a (41)
K2b1a2 (3)
K2b1a3 (3)
K2b1a4 (5)
K2b1b (31)
K2b2 (1)

There don't seem to be any strong patterns within the groups, all seem to extend throughout Europe, but perhaps based on the current testing population seem especially common in the British Isles, Germany, and Scandinavia.

SarahK2b
01-14-2018, 09:15 PM
I just received my DNA results (National Geographic by Helix). It states that I am K2b1a1 haplogroup (only 0.1% share this group). Interesting! My maternal grandmother (Edith Biber) was born near Lake Ammersee, Bavaria in 1896 - she emigrated to NJ around 1906; her family was Catholic. I would love to learn more - was her family Jewish?

msmarjoribanks
01-15-2018, 12:24 AM
Welcome! Not enough K2b types around here.

How detailed are the National Geographic results? I know some who tested at FTDNA after 23 & Me got more specific results.

I don't believe any of the K2b haplogroups are Ashkenazi. From the FTDNA K project, K2b1a1 has a mix from all over Europe -- England, Scotland, Ireland, Norway, Portugal, Italy, France, Sweden, Germany, Czech Republic, Netherlands, Finland, Belgium, and plenty of unknowns. Most of the K2b groups seem to be like that -- my dad's is K2b1a1a, so just one step away. His matrilineal ancestor is traced to Suffolk, England in the 1500s, but he has a perfect match from Norway and another from Germany, as well as others that go back to Suffolk, so sometimes these mutate VERY slowly.

Trea
06-14-2018, 07:10 PM
I am K2B1a1a

msmarjoribanks
06-15-2018, 03:18 AM
Welcome! Do you know your matrilineal ancestry back very far? My dad is K2b1a1a and gets a good number of matches, whereas my K2b2 almost never does.

msmarjoribanks
07-13-2018, 07:11 PM
Since I got my 23 and Me results (they had me at K2b, which is either not updated or not enough markers to reach K2b2), I thought it would be worth putting down the information they provided about the haplogroup.

"Origin and Migrations of Haplogroup K

Haplogroup K is actually a branch of haplogroup U, and traces back to a woman who lived nearly 27,000 years ago in the Middle East. It continues to have a strong presence in the region today, reaching levels of 20% among Druze Muslims and about 10% among Kurds, Palestinians and Yemenites. It is also found among the Gurage of Ethiopia, who are thought to be descended from Arabian invaders.

K spread from the Middle East into Europe about 15,000 to 12,000 years ago, as the Ice Age was ending and temperate forests spread over the previously frigid continent. It is still found at low levels in most European populations, where many branches of the haplogroup match identical ones from the Middle East. That close similarity suggests that more recent migrations also may have carried haplogroup K from the Middle East to Europe, perhaps with the spread of agriculture about 8,000 years ago.

Haplogroup K also extends into Central Asia as far as the Altay Mountains, a range that runs along the western edge of Mongolia's Gobi Desert. It may have reached there with relatively ancient migrants from the Middle East, and then been spread to other parts of Asia during the medieval expansion of the Turkic peoples to the Urals and modern-day Turkey."

"Your maternal haplogroup, K2b, traces back to a woman who lived approximately 14,500 years ago."

"K2b is relatively uncommon among 23andMe customers. 1 in 1200 23andMe customers share your haplogroup assignment."

msmarjoribanks
07-16-2018, 08:46 PM
Interesting bit I noticed in the supplemental data to the Olade Bell Beaker paper in Nature. Looking at K1 and K2 in the samples studied:

Neolithic Britain--16 (or 31%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.
Iberia CA--6 (or 12.5%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.

Iberian Bell Beaker associated--11 (or 31%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.

Bell Beaker Central Europe--15 (or 12%) of the samples were K1, but another 3 (or 2.36%) were K2.
Bell Beaker Britain--9 (or 13%) of the samples were K1, but another 2 (or 2.86%) were K2

Only 3 of the samples were K2b, and all were Bell Beaker and in Central Europe

K2b1a1--I5527 (female, BB Germany)
K2b1a--I5755 (BB Switzerland, R-M269)
K2b1--I6468 (female, BB Czech)

Repeating the analysis from Eupedia above, "Based on ancient DNA tests, haplogroup K appears to have been absent among the Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG) who occupied western and central Europe before the Neolithic period. The K1a, K1b and K2a subclades were found among Early Neolithic farmers (ENF) from the Near East, and subsequently among Early European farmers (EEF).

In contrast, the K1c, K2b and K2c subclades never been found among Neolithic farmers to date and do not appear to have Near Eastern roots. They are most common in eastern Europe today, where have originated during the Mesolithic, among Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHG), and would have spread with Y-haplogroup R1a during the Bronze Age to Germanic countries and Central Asia, where they are also found at relatively high frequencies."

Nothing very strong, but the Olade samples seem to further support the analysis above, as well as the idea that K2b was probably not in Britain before the BBers/Bronze Age.

msmarjoribanks
08-10-2018, 08:37 PM
Adding in some new (to me) information, brought to my attention by Kristiina. The earliest K2b to be found so far seems to be in the Funnelbeaker culture (TRB), and specifically in Gotland. From https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2352409X17303231:

"Here we investigate the demographic history of the Funnel Beaker culture [Trichterbecherkultur or TRB, c. 4000–2800 cal BCE], and the sub-Neolithic Pitted Ware culture complex [PWC, c. 3300–2300 cal BCE] during the Nordic Middle Neolithic period on the island of Gotland, Sweden. We use a multidisciplinary approach to investigate individuals buried in the Ansarve dolmen, the only confirmed TRB burial on the island....

TRB was a large culture complex that spanned from the Netherlands to Poland and from the Czech Republic to southern Scandinavia. The culture has been divided into regional groups based on typochronology of pottery (Bakker, 1979, Müller, 2011), where present day Scandinavia and northern Germany belong to the TRB-north group (Fig. 1). The northern expansion of the TRB culture was a rapid process, beginning in northern Germany and Denmark, and continuing north into southeastern Norway and central Sweden, including the islands Gotland and Öland in the Baltic Sea, (Eriksson et al., 2008, Fischer and Kristiansen, 2002, Hallgren, 2008, Lindqvist, 1997, Papmehl-Dufay, 2012, Persson, 1999, Price, 2015). However, the mechanism for the process of dispersal of the TRB complex into Scandinavia continues to be debated (Andersson, 2016, Price, 2015)....

Towards the end of the Nordic Early Neolithic period [EN: 4000–3300 cal BCE], a new type of burial tradition is seen in the TRB culture, largely in the form of megalithic tombs such as dolmens and passage graves. Although thousands of tombs have been located in both northern Germany and Denmark (Midgley, 2008, Müller, 2011), only c. 500–600 are known in Sweden to date. They are primarily distributed in the south and along the west coast, as well as a large group of over 250 passage graves in the Falköping area in Västergötland (Fig. 1) (Sjögren, 2004, Blomqvist, 1989, Sjögren, 2003, Tilley, 1999). However, only a few tombs have been located to the east, including the islands Gotland and Öland (Arne, 1923, Arne, 1909, Browall, 2016, Bägerfeldt, 1992, Janzon, 2009, Janzon, 1984, Lithberg, 1914, Martinsson-Wallin and Wallin, 2010). Several of these tombs have been excavated and examined revealing that many were used for the duration of the TRB culture complex Middle Neolithic phase, also with extensions into later time periods (Eriksson et al., 2008, Fornander, 2011, Persson and Sjögren, 1995).”

The mtDNA analyzed (9) from the Ansarve dolmen included the following:

ans007, dated 3010–2890 BCE, age 13–17, K2b1a
ans009, dated 2880–2630 BCE, age 18–60, K2b1a

The article continues:

“... Even though the mtDNA haplogroup composition of the Ansarve group show close resemblance to the other Swedish megalithic burials [TRB-P] (Fig. 5) there also appear to be differences in the TRB groups that would need further investigation (Fig. 6B). The Ansarve group seems to show closer affinity to EN and MN central European groups, while TRB-P seems to have some more southwestern European influence. This southwestern influence has recently also been noticed in genomic analyses of Gok2 from the TRB passage grave in Västergötland (Cassidy et al., 2016, Martiniano et al., 2017). A similar scenario can be seen in the TRB collective burials [TRB-C] from central Europe, which cluster with EN Iberian populations based on the high frequency of haplogroup H (Figs. 6Band A8). The contemporaneous individuals at the Ostrof TRB burial site [TRB-F] cluster in between PWC and the Neolithic farmers in the PCAs (Fig. 6A–B). These individuals have also been described as a sub-Neolithic group with a hunter-gatherer subsistence strategy based on freshwater fish (Lübke et al., 2009). These results show that there were regional differences within the TRB-North group complex, and that different scenarios shaped the genetic makeup of the TRB groups in different regions.”

msmarjoribanks
10-03-2018, 02:31 AM
I just got a new K2b2 match. Almost all my match notifications are for my dad's account (K2b1a1a is much more common than K2b2, it seems), so I just assumed it was his and then looked at it and got excited. Only my second 0 GD match too. I immediately emailed him, so hopefully that doesn't weird him out. He has no tree information posted yet.

msmarjoribanks
10-04-2018, 03:50 AM
So very speculative still, but my new match emailed me back quickly. To recap (I went into this in another thread), my mtDNA traced back is a Margaret Hester b. abt 1790 KY (although there are possible issues with that -- it's a little bit speculative, although her daughter is certain and I feel good about the identification).

Another match (but only HCVR1) had a Hester in the right area -- Margaret Gilbert (b. 1767) married John Hester in KY (possible parents or other relatives of my Margaret). Margaret Gilbert's parents were supposedly Margaret Christian and Nicholas Gilbert. Margaret was b. PA abt 1740, d. KY 1824.

New match has ancestor Christina Gilbert b. PA abt 1780, child born in KY 1804.

Interesting!

Táltos
07-02-2019, 05:58 PM
One of my cousins recently tested at 23andme, and although obviously won't give the most complete haplogroup assignment- it is a start. :-)

I have learned that my maternal grandfather's mtDNA is K2b1. Most distant direct line mother line from an Arbereshe village in Calabria. Surname of Rizzo. Also very interesting is a close cousin match that we both have on that site lists his direct maternal line as being from our same village, and he is a K2b1 too! The surnames he has listed do not look familiar to me, but I have to message him to see if we can figure more out. 23andme lists this K2b1 cousin as either a 3rd or 4th cousin match for my mom, my other K2b1 cousin, and myself.

msmarjoribanks
07-23-2019, 02:47 PM
Very few K2b haplogroups in the recent Viking samples -- I only saw 2. As usual, most K are K1 with some K2a.

The two K2b are both K2b1a1 -- (1) VK424 was found at Varnhem, Skara, Sweden (10-12th century, Viking), R1b-U106; and (2) VK514 was at Nordland, Norway (6th-10th century, Viking), R1a (I didn't write down the further Y breakdown for that one, but there is one).

Hilerno
07-24-2019, 03:01 PM
Interesting bit I noticed in the supplemental data to the Olade Bell Beaker paper in Nature. Looking at K1 and K2 in the samples studied:

Neolithic Britain--16 (or 31%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.
Iberia CA--6 (or 12.5%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.

Iberian Bell Beaker associated--11 (or 31%) of the samples were K1, but none were K2.

Bell Beaker Central Europe--15 (or 12%) of the samples were K1, but another 3 (or 2.36%) were K2.
Bell Beaker Britain--9 (or 13%) of the samples were K1, but another 2 (or 2.86%) were K2

Only 3 of the samples were K2b, and all were Bell Beaker and in Central Europe

K2b1a1--I5527 (female, BB Germany)
K2b1a--I5755 (BB Switzerland, R-M269)
K2b1--I6468 (female, BB Czech)

Repeating the analysis from Eupedia above, "Based on ancient DNA tests, haplogroup K appears to have been absent among the Western Hunter-Gatherers (WHG) who occupied western and central Europe before the Neolithic period. The K1a, K1b and K2a subclades were found among Early Neolithic farmers (ENF) from the Near East, and subsequently among Early European farmers (EEF).

In contrast, the K1c, K2b and K2c subclades never been found among Neolithic farmers to date and do not appear to have Near Eastern roots. They are most common in eastern Europe today, where have originated during the Mesolithic, among Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHG), and would have spread with Y-haplogroup R1a during the Bronze Age to Germanic countries and Central Asia, where they are also found at relatively high frequencies."

Nothing very strong, but the Olade samples seem to further support the analysis above, as well as the idea that K2b was probably not in Britain before the BBers/Bronze Age.

My grandmother from Basque Country (Spain) is K2b1a

Mit Hap-K2b- Turkey AHG-Anatolian Hunter gatherers- Pinarbasi, HapY-C1a2-13.357 BC-
Mit Hap-K2b1- Sicily, Fossatto di Stretto Partana, Neolithic-I4065-4.878 BC

Mit Hap-K2b1a- Spain Rebolal, Galicia- Neolithic-Megalithic culture-3.450 BC--
Mit Hap-K2b1a- Sweden, Ansarve, Gottland, Neolithic- Megalithic Culture An7-2.950 BC/An9-2.755 BC)
K2b1a- Spain-Pala da Vella, Galicia, Bell Beaker culture Chalcolithic-2.372 BC
K2b1a- Sardinia- Serra Crabiles, BB culture-Sec004-2.332 BC
K2b1-Contrada Paulina Castellucciana-BB culture-I7743-2.300 BC
K2b1a- Switzerland-Sion,BB culture-I5755-2.227 BC
K2b1a1- Germany. Manching-BB culture-I5527.2.250 BC
K2b1- Czech- Velke Prilepy-Bell Beaker culture-2.200 BC
K2b1-Buffa,Bronze Age -I4109-1.570 BC
K2b1- Spain, Ampurias- Greek colony-I8202-200 Ac

The path seems easy to describe-
1-Anatolian hunter gatherers
2- Anatolian Farmers
3- BAlkanes
4-Western Europe-Megalithic Culture-Sicily and Spain
5-Northern Europe-Sweden-Megalithic culture
6- Bell Beaker culture- Spain-Sardinia, Germany, Switzerland and Czech Republic

msmarjoribanks
07-25-2019, 03:20 PM
Is the Neolithic Spain one from this study: https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/file?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0146176&type=printable?

If so, can you post a link for the supplemental information showing the mtDNA? I think that would be something interesting to add to this thread.

Also the study relating to the early Sicilian one (4878 BCE).

I think we have the earliest Turkey one, as I know it's been discussed in the K forum.

The data from Eupedia is probably outdated -- maybe they weren't finding K2b in Neolithic samples is just that it's so comparatively rare in general vs. K1a, K1b, K2a, dunno.

msmarjoribanks
07-30-2019, 05:50 PM
Also interesting none of those samples are K2b2.

So far the only K2b2 I am aware of is the one I listed above from from Jean Manco's site:

Corded Ware Germany Esperstedt [I1544/ESP 36] M 2500-2050 BC R1a L63, L146 K2b2

Would be curious if more have been identified.

msmarjoribanks
07-30-2019, 05:56 PM
Very few K2b haplogroups in the recent Viking samples -- I only saw 2. As usual, most K are K1 with some K2a.

The two K2b are both K2b1a1 -- (1) VK424 was found at Varnhem, Skara, Sweden (10-12th century, Viking), R1b-U106; and (2) VK514 was at Nordland, Norway (6th-10th century, Viking), R1a (I didn't write down the further Y breakdown for that one, but there is one).

Following up on these with the ancestry information given, I don't see any for VK424, but for VK514:

VK514
British-like=0
Danish-like=0.025
Swedish-like=0.083
Norwegian-like=0.734
Polish-like=0.001
Southern European-like=0.014
Finnish-like=0.143