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George Chandler
10-22-2017, 03:33 PM
Will much (if not all) of the classified files being released this week on the subject I thought it would be a good time to take a poll and see what people think on the subject. If you chose "other" for your choice please explain.

George

George Chandler
10-22-2017, 03:45 PM
My theory on it is that the US government may have received a tip about the possibility of a threat to the President but it wasn't actioned in time to prevent it. I don't believe there was any conspiracy within the US Gov't to murder him but some government elements were the same mud hole as Oswald..and some of that is what had to stay classified. I believe that there was the "possibly" another shooter in the same room with Oswald who did the shot but Oswald was in fact the patsy he said he was. That was a very difficult shot to make and given Oswald's botched 100m or so attempted shooting of the army officer months before I don't think it was him. I believe the person behind the assassination was Sam Giancana and Jack Ruby (connected to Giancana) was the one who eliminated Oswald when he was going to talk. I believe it was a Kennedy family member who eliminated Giancana years later as the Giancana surveillance team was pulled just prior to the assassination.

George

Amerijoe
10-22-2017, 03:55 PM
Just this week watched an interview with Dr. Michael Baden. A top forensic pathologist who was chairman of a government investigative committee into the Kennedy assassination. His conclusion backed by forensics points to a lone gunman. He feels the documents were sealed because the governmental agencies responsible for Kennedy’s safety would have been shown doing a less than stellar job. Does 50 years absolve incompetence. The forthcoming banter should be very interesting and fall along political lines.

alexfritz
10-22-2017, 03:55 PM
i think its tied to vietnam - 51:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sz8H_oi1ck0
+diem 2/11 +jfk 22/11

rms2
10-22-2017, 06:18 PM
Some years back I was really into reading about the Kennedy assassination. I finally became convinced that Oswald was the lone killer of President Kennedy. People love a wild conspiracy, and they want the death of such an important and beloved man to have some meaning. Surely he could not have been brought down by a loser like Oswald! Sinister, powerful forces must have been at work behind the scenes, pulling a complex web of strings. There were also people who really wanted to blame Kennedy's death on redneck Texas right wingers. When it turned out that Oswald was a crazy communist, pro-Castro loon, it was a real letdown.

MikeWhalen
10-22-2017, 06:19 PM
I voted 'other', because I do think there was more to it than just the lone gunman, but I have no clue at all who else might have been involved or behind it.

as a general rule, I quite dislike conspiracy theory's
...more often than not, I have found them to be more about someones need for drama, intellectual laziness or personal hidden agenda than the facts of the case (I know, harsh, but you cant believe the nonsense I have to deal with in my work environment because of folks engaging in 1 of those 3 reasons I gave)
...I find that some variation of Occam's razor usually does an excellent job at explaining things

so having said all of that, the JFK assassination is the only one that I do think the single shooter, Oswald story does not answer everything...I like one of Georges comments above when he said (paraphrasing & adding here) that there were many factions or elements that 'were the same mud hole as Oswald"-it was really quite messy with all sorts of nefarious characters having a finger in the pie somewhere...who the hell knows exactly what went on, but I dont think the official story line gets it quite right...

In fact, I suspect the true story to be closer to the 'Challenger chain' sort of explanation where a series of small ish decisions from a variety of entities added up in a toxic way to eventually cause the disaster, and no 1 thing caused it all

anyway, thats my 2 cents

Mike

George Chandler
10-22-2017, 09:24 PM
Just this week watched an interview with Dr. Michael Baden. A top forensic pathologist who was chairman of a government investigative committee into the Kennedy assassination. His conclusion backed by forensics points to a lone gunman. He feels the documents were sealed because the governmental agencies responsible for Kennedy’s safety would have been shown doing a less than stellar job. Does 50 years absolve incompetence. The forthcoming banter should be very interesting and fall along political lines.

I agree with the idea of a single shooter (even if there was more than one shooting there). What I dispute is that in the depository room where Oswald was actual shooting was done by another person in the same location and not Oswald.

George Chandler
10-22-2017, 09:37 PM
I voted 'other', because I do think there was more to it than just the lone gunman, but I have no clue at all who else might have been involved or behind it.

as a general rule, I quite dislike conspiracy theory's
...more often than not, I have found them to be more about someones need for drama, intellectual laziness or personal hidden agenda than the facts of the case (I know, harsh, but you cant believe the nonsense I have to deal with in my work environment because of folks engaging in 1 of those 3 reasons I gave)
...I find that some variation of Occam's razor usually does an excellent job at explaining things

so having said all of that, the JFK assassination is the only one that I do think the single shooter, Oswald story does not answer everything...I like one of Georges comments above when he said (paraphrasing & adding here) that there were many factions or elements that 'were the same mud hole as Oswald"-it was really quite messy with all sorts of nefarious characters having a finger in the pie somewhere...who the hell knows exactly what went on, but I dont think the official story line gets it quite right...

In fact, I suspect the true story to be closer to the 'Challenger chain' sort of explanation where a series of small ish decisions from a variety of entities added up in a toxic way to eventually cause the disaster, and no 1 thing caused it all

anyway, thats my 2 cents

Mike

Good points Mike. People can look at it and say ya he was a Marine..ya he had some skills..ya Oswald got lucky. He botched a single shot of someone sitting in their lit living room a hundred or so yards away under the cover of night. As far as I can see the Kennedy assassination would have been his first kill (that I'm aware of) so you have to consider the situation and stress. This guy is shooting in broad daylight..the target is the highest profile possible..the target is moving with the stress that you will likely get caught or be killed. A shot to the throat and one to the head..made on a moving target when the guy can't even pull one off under the cover of night which is seated?? He wasn't that cool of a customer and he wasn't that good with a rifle..and I'm not much for luck. Especially after he gets taken out himself. I don't subscribe to multiple shots from different rifles being fired just Oswald and another person in that room and Oswald didn't pull the trigger. If he was a sniper..I could get there...if he had completed the previous assassination attempt I could get there. I don't buy it that he was the lone gunman.

George

rms2
10-22-2017, 10:52 PM
This is probably the best book I have read on the subject:

Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F3QYGAG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).

Most people do not know what they are talking about when they discuss the assassination of JFK. This book is a very careful analysis of the facts.

alan
10-23-2017, 01:18 AM
I think Oswald was a,fake detector to the Soviet union with the aim to create a fake 'legend' for him a commie. I think the plan was to get him into Cuba to assassinate Castro. Later on the arrival of soviet nukes and their removal on the promise of no invasion meant that plan was superfluous by the end of 1962. I think then some rogue elements thought that an alternative was to use Oswald's existing fake commie trail to frame him and implicate Castro in jfks assassination to provide a huge fake pretext for invading Cuba. However the was covered up by people like LBJ didn't want a nuclear war with Russia.

lgmayka
10-23-2017, 01:19 AM
G. Robert Blakey led the Congressional investigation into the Kennedy assassination in the 1970s (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_House_Select_Committee_on_Assassinat ions), which concluded that there was indeed a conspiracy but did not attempt to guess the participants. In a 2003 addendum (https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/oswald/interviews/blakey.html#addendum), he wrote:
---
Outrageously, the [Central Intelligence] Agency did not tell the Warren Commission or our committee that it had financial and other connections with the DRE, a group that Oswald had direct dealings with!
...
The files and the Agency agents connected to the DRE should have been made available to the commission and the committee. That the information in the files and the agents who could have supplemented it were not made available to the commission and the committee amounts to willful obstruction of justice.
...
That the Agency would put a "material witness" in as a "filter" between the committee and its quests for documents was a flat out breach of the understanding the committee had with the Agency that it would co-operate with the investigation.
...
For these reasons, I no longer believe that we were able to conduct an appropriate investigation of the Agency and its relationship to Oswald.
...
What the Agency did not give us none but those involved in the Agency can know for sure. I do not believe any denial offered by the Agency on any point. The law has long followed the rule that if a person lies to you on one point, you may reject all of his testimony.

I now no longer believe anything the Agency told the committee any further than I can obtain substantial corroboration for it from outside the Agency for its veracity. We now know that the Agency withheld from the Warren Commission the CIA-Mafia plots to kill Castro. Had the commission known of the plots, it would have followed a different path in its investigation. The Agency unilaterally deprived the commission of a chance to obtain the full truth, which will now never be known.
...
We also now know that the Agency set up a process that could only have been designed to frustrate the ability of the committee in 1976-79 to obtain any information that might adversely affect the Agency.

Many have told me that the culture of the Agency is one of prevarication and dissimulation and that you cannot trust it or its people. Period. End of story.

I am now in that camp.
---

Opium
10-23-2017, 01:48 AM
Government coverup. Oswald murdered by Ruby. Ruby never stood a chance in court; sentenced to death & dies before a rehearing. With Oswald dead Ruby, who reportedly hung around police stations, had a familial history of mental issues, and wanted to be 'someone' was a perfect scapegoat to 'hang'.


There's also no concrete evidence of Ruby & the mob except for claims by a Dallas sheriff. A sheriff who apparently lied.

lgmayka
10-23-2017, 01:59 AM
For over 20 years a mob hitman named James Files has claimed to have shot JFK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308941/Mob-hitman-James-Files-stands-claims-man-responsible-President-John-F-Kennedy-s-assassination-prepares-release.html). On YouTube you can find his interviews from 1994 (https://youtu.be/KcU3OdKrSEc?t=50)and 2003 (https://youtu.be/qr4vgHsmNEk?t=610). Note that in order to protect himself, in the interviews he avoids incriminating any living mobster.

A former FBI agent, Zack Shelton, believes that the assassination was indeed a "CIA-Mafia hit (https://youtu.be/JJ1y7UDtowI?t=205)." YouTube has an interview with Zack Shelton on James Files (https://youtu.be/Xuvqm-UjrxQ?t=23).

George Chandler
10-23-2017, 02:09 AM
Government coverup. Oswald murdered by Ruby. Ruby never stood a chance in court; sentenced to death & dies before a rehearing. With Oswald dead Ruby, who reportedly hung around police stations, had a familial history of mental issues, and wanted to be 'someone' was a perfect scapegoat to 'hang'.


There's also no concrete evidence of Ruby & the mob except for claims by a Dallas sheriff. A sheriff who apparently lied.

It's true that Oswaldo was the perfect person to set up and you could see that he loved the attention. There is no question he was messed up...a no one trying to be a someone. Remember that Giancana had the motive..had the reputation..had the ability and bragged that he was behind it after the fact (true or just talk). Now "if" Ruby was connected to Giancana directly or through another connection he would be useful given that he was on his way out. I don't buy the patriotic American who felt the urge to get revenge and loved Kennedy. I don't think it's ever been stated as to why the Giancana surveillance team was pulled just prior to him being hit...or who made that happen?

George

George Chandler
10-23-2017, 02:16 AM
For over 20 years a mob hitman named James Files has claimed to have shot JFK (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3308941/Mob-hitman-James-Files-stands-claims-man-responsible-President-John-F-Kennedy-s-assassination-prepares-release.html). On YouTube you can find his interviews from 1994 (https://youtu.be/KcU3OdKrSEc?t=50)and 2003 (https://youtu.be/qr4vgHsmNEk?t=610). Note that in order to protect himself, in the interviews he avoids incriminating any living mobster.

A former FBI agent, Zack Shelton, believes that the assassination was indeed a "CIA-Mafia hit (https://youtu.be/JJ1y7UDtowI?t=205)." YouTube has an interview with Zack Shelton on James Files (https://youtu.be/Xuvqm-UjrxQ?t=23).

I personally can't get there in terms of CIA being involved (on or off the books). Like I said before they were in the same mud pits and mud on your hands doesn't mean blood on your hands. There was IMO a cover up in terms of trying to prevent things they were involved in being made public. I do think that Giancana had his fingerprints all over it though. I haven't watched the interviews yet in terms of the claimant but I'm skeptical of anyone coming forward on that.

lgmayka
10-23-2017, 03:37 AM
A former FBI agent, Zack Shelton, believes that the assassination was indeed a "CIA-Mafia hit (https://youtu.be/JJ1y7UDtowI?t=205)." YouTube has an interview with Zack Shelton on James Files (https://youtu.be/Xuvqm-UjrxQ?t=23).
E. Howard Hunt was a CIA mastermind involved in both the Bay of Pigs and the Watergate break-in. Reportedly, before his death he admitted to his son Saint John Hunt (http://www.rollingstone.com/culture/features/the-last-confession-of-e-howard-hunt-20070405) that JFK was the victim of a CIA plot. Most significantly, the plot allegedly had the approval of Lyndon Johnson, JFK's successor--a claim made also by Johnson's alleged mistress (https://youtu.be/79lOKs0Kr_Y?t=155). YouTube has an interview with Saint John Hunt (https://youtu.be/HsSACp2j1Ck?t=110). This video appears to be a 2005 interview with E. Howard Hunt himself (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvLTAJa5zAU&feature=youtu.be&t=12) on the topic.

lgmayka
10-23-2017, 04:03 AM
I don't think it's ever been stated as to why the Giancana surveillance team was pulled just prior to him being hit...or who made that happen?
As columnist William Safire wrote at the time (https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=m2pPAAAAIBAJ&sjid=wiQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=6699%2C5312620):
---
He [Giancana] is the only person in American history to be murdered just before he was to appear in front of a congressional committee.
---

That was the Church Committee (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Committee), looking into CIA abuses.

By the way, my posts in this thread are not meant to imply a specific personal opinion. Rather, I merely believe that all Americans should at least be aware of the existence in the public record of these personal testimonies.

Gary Corbett
10-23-2017, 04:40 AM
This is probably the best book I have read on the subject:

Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F3QYGAG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).

Most people do not know what they are talking about when they discuss the assassination of JFK. This book is a very careful analysis of the facts.

Rich-I'd highly advise that you take yourself over to The Education Forum and start reading what people that actually know what they are talking about have to say.
To cite Gerald Posner as a serious researcher is utterly ridiculous.
If you want the truth,read Jim DiEugenio,Peter Dale Scott,Larry Hancock,Gaeton Fonzi,Jim Marrs,Jim Garrison,John Armstrong,Joan Mellen,and others.

Gary Corbett
10-23-2017, 04:45 AM
Blakey was brought in to write a report.To continue the cover-up,and not let too much come to light.
He knew exactly what he was doing and what he was there for.
The people that were originally tasked with this actually tried to do a murder investigation,and were blocked from doing so,so they quit.
Read Gaeton Fonzi-The Last Investigation.
He was there.He was one of the investigators.

Gary Corbett
10-23-2017, 04:59 AM
Jim DiEugenio on Gerald Posner

https://kennedysandking.com/john-f-kennedy-articles/gerald-posner-did-he-get-anything-right

rms2
10-23-2017, 11:05 AM
Rich-I'd highly advise that you take yourself over to The Education Forum and start reading what people that actually know what they are talking about have to say.
To cite Gerald Posner as a serious researcher is utterly ridiculous.
If you want the truth,read Jim DiEugenio,Peter Dale Scott,Larry Hancock,Gaeton Fonzi,Jim Marrs,Jim Garrison,John Armstrong,Joan Mellen,and others.

Have you read Posner's book?

Jim Garrison? Seriously?

Gary Corbett
10-23-2017, 01:38 PM
Jim Garrison, absolutely.
What he had to say has been vindicated many times over by file releases and researchers that cover these things.
Joan Mellen and Jim DiEugenio in particular tell all about this in their work. Have YOU read THEM? Obviously not, if you can hold the position you hold.

Gary Corbett
10-23-2017, 02:07 PM
John Simkin has an excellent site for several reasons.
Very good for having the cast of characters listed, with bios, so you can get a grasp on who's who in the zoo.
http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKindex.htm

Jim Garrison Playboy Interview :
http://www.jfklancer.com/Garrison2.html

The Education Forum :
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/forum/126-jfk-assassination-debate/

Harvey and Lee:
http://harveyandlee.net/
(Jim Hargrove's site for presenting the work of John Armstrong)

James Richards Who's Who pic collection :
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/Who/

James Richards Familiar Faces In Dealey Plaza:
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP/

James Richards FFIDP 2:
http://www.manuscriptservice.com/FFiDP-2/

Dino Brugioni Interview :
https://youtu.be/4pZIJRtSqHk

jesus
10-23-2017, 02:54 PM
He should release the classified alien stuff :pop2:

George Chandler
10-23-2017, 03:00 PM
He should release the classified alien stuff :pop2:

If you realized that 99% of the information that people have been spouting since 1947 about big headed gray alien abduction was just people regurgitating false information and making up attention seeking stories would you release it? Which is a greater threat..what happened (if anything) or that tens of thousands of people like making up attention seeking abduction stories?? That to me is the scariest aspect of that topic.

lgmayka
10-23-2017, 08:00 PM
Harvey and Lee:
http://harveyandlee.net/
(Jim Hargrove's site for presenting the work of John Armstrong)
Interesting 1996 testimony, to the Assassination Records Review Board, from Robert Tanenbaum (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index32.htm), the former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations of the 1970s.
---
But with respect to the investigation, the executive committee transfer for example of approximately January 20th, 23rd, 27th, in that period of time when the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI. And the Chief Justice said well we'll investigate that. And yet in substance on the record Allen Dulles says not so fast. What do you mean says the Chief Justice, to which Allen Dulles replies, well if you ask J. Edgar Hoover whether or not Oswald was an employee of the FBI he's simply going to say, no. To which the Chief Justice responded, do you mean to tell me if I were to call an agent in here under oath he would not tell the truth? And Dulles said, if he were a good agent.
---

The clear message here--from Allen Dulles, the former head of the CIA--is that any "good" CIA or even FBI agent will not hesitate to commit perjury, even before the Warren Commission investigating the assassination of the President, in order to protect an agency secret.

George Chandler
10-23-2017, 08:00 PM
One thing that's interesting to point out about shooters..if you have ever been around one you will know that it's like a religious cult. You rarely (if ever) get to touch, hold or work on the weapon of someone who takes it seriously. They may be good at shooting many different types, calibers, models but will likely have a select few they will use to make certain shots depending on the distance. They will usually go with the rifle that they feel most comfortable with and have used the most if it's an important shot to make. With Oswald being an Ex Marine you would think (knowing the importance of the shot to him) he would have chosen to shoot say a Springfield he may have used in the Marines. Yet he doesn't...he chooses and Italian made Carcano rifle. They are good rifles..but would that be your choice? I have no doubt that he bought the mail order rifle (where did it come from..Chicago?) and that he was in possession of it and brought it to the site. People are strict about the weapons they use..in the same way a Sicilian shooter may have been comfortable using an Italian made Carcano instead of a Springfield. Just because I shoot a Husky...doesn't mean I'm Swedish so I understand the critical argument some may make "but" think of it as another possible oddity among many.

George Chandler
10-23-2017, 08:11 PM
Interesting 1996 testimony, to the Assassination Records Review Board, from Robert Tanenbaum (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/arrb/index32.htm), the former Deputy Counsel for the House Select Committee on Assassinations of the 1970s.
---
But with respect to the investigation, the executive committee transfer for example of approximately January 20th, 23rd, 27th, in that period of time when the Attorney General of Texas, Henry Wade the District Attorney and Leon Jaworsky counsel to the Attorney General, on the transcript spoke to the Chief Justice and said in substance, as I recall, that they had information from unimpeachable sources that Lee Harvey Oswald was a contract employee of the CIA and the FBI. And the Chief Justice said well we'll investigate that. And yet in substance on the record Allen Dulles says not so fast. What do you mean says the Chief Justice, to which Allen Dulles replies, well if you ask J. Edgar Hoover whether or not Oswald was an employee of the FBI he's simply going to say, no. To which the Chief Justice responded, do you mean to tell me if I were to call an agent in here under oath he would not tell the truth? And Dulles said, if he were a good agent.
---


It would be interesting to see "under what program"? Like I've said before a career Intel Officer (regardless if they were from the States or Soviet Union) would have avoided running him (IMO) like the plague. He was too erratic..too emotional..too high profile..too wrong on so many levels. It would not have taken long for them to figure that out. Like I said..same mud pools so guessing cross contamination but I would be surprised to see that he was on the payroll of either agency. Maybe some sort of third party blank cheque training operation that there was no real control of? That one
I would have to see to believe he was on the payroll.

George Chandler
10-27-2017, 08:47 PM
I don't have the time to look through the documents that were just released but find the call to the British newspaper about 25 minutes before the assassination and for them to call the US embassy in London and let them know something big was about to happen. It would be interesting to see the British files on this (commentary/analysis). An associate?..Oswaldo himself?

lgmayka
10-27-2017, 10:56 PM
I don't have the time to look through the documents that were just released
For me, the single most significant document (of those actually released) comes from our own spy in Moscow (https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32204484.pdf).
---
Our source added that in the instructions from Moscow [dated 9/16/1965], it was indicated that “now” the KGB was in possession of data purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy.
---

In other words, by 1965 the Soviet Union was convinced, based on evidence in its possession, that Johnson approved the assassination plot.

George Chandler
10-28-2017, 02:32 PM
For me, the single most significant document (of those actually released) comes from our own spy in Moscow (https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32204484.pdf).
---
Our source added that in the instructions from Moscow [dated 9/16/1965], it was indicated that “now” the KGB was in possession of data purporting to indicate President Johnson was responsible for the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy.
---

In other words, by 1965 the Soviet Union was convinced, based on evidence in its possession, that Johnson approved the assassination plot.

Given what was happening at the time and the animosity between the US and Soviets the comments wouldn't surprise me. Personally I think they may have leaked that in order to create mistrust at the top levels of the US government. If they (Moscow) actually had evidence supporting this statement they could release it at anytime.

What really interests me is that phone call made to the newspaper which could be nothing or it could be everything. Here are the possibilities:

1) That it was just a crank call and the circumstances and timing are all coincidence. Personally I don't buy that because it was specific about someone involving the US...specific that it was "Big News" and specific that it was about to happen yet vague enough not to prevent anything from happening. The caller may have know that this paper was small enough that there was no government agencies surveilling it and that';s why it was chosen?

2) The caller was Lee Harvey and he was calling to brag about what he was about to do which fits his personality but unlikely he would have gone to a phone booth 25 minutes before to do this. A shooter would need time to make sure everything was in place..calm himself and get into the zone. So I doubt it was him.

3) It was "Oswaldo"..a person who took the place of Oswald on the 6th floor and did the shooting instead of Lee Harvey Oswald. You have to again consider that a professional shooter would not have wasted his/her time on doing something like this moments before making a shot like this.

4) It was the person pulling the strings who is behind this. The person who wants people to suspect and know who did it..but not enough to stop it from happening or prove it. The personality of someone like that "who bragged about being behind the assassination" was Sam Giancana. The British likely would not be able to have identified the person on the other end of the phone but it would be interesting to know if the call came from a Chicago pay phone. A professional shooter from the US or USSR would not have done this..nor would a head conspirator..it would be deafening silence.

rms2
10-28-2017, 03:43 PM
The newly released documents have finally revealed the truth: JFK survived the assassination attempt and lived for many years, disguised as a black man, in a nursing home in East Texas with Elvis Presley, who had faked his own death.

This film chronicles the startling details of the story.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGeWx7NTM8

DMXX
10-28-2017, 03:48 PM
Hi all, moving the thread to the History (Modern) section. 1 week expiring redirect will be left. Thanks.

George Chandler
10-28-2017, 04:00 PM
The newly released documents have finally revealed the truth: JFK survived the assassination attempt and lived for many years, disguised as a black man, in a nursing home in East Texas with Elvis Presley, who had faked his own death.

This film chronicles the startling details of the story.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akGeWx7NTM8

:doh:

rms2
10-28-2017, 04:05 PM
It's a great film. Makes about as much sense as most of the other JFK theories.

George Chandler
10-28-2017, 04:13 PM
It's a great film. Makes about as much sense as most of the other JFK theories.

Inside you know I'm right!...you really think that bumbling boso Lee Harvey pulled that off?

rms2
10-28-2017, 04:13 PM
LOL Why don't you go play with epp! :P

Are you suggesting that because you think he was on the grassy knoll or maybe behind the fence?

:biggrin1:

Who wasn't there, working for both the Mafia and the C.I.A.?

rms2
10-28-2017, 04:15 PM
Inside you know I'm right!...you really think that bumbling boso Lee Harvey pulled that off?

That's what I think. Have you read Posner's book?

rms2
10-28-2017, 04:16 PM
Anyway, time spent watching Bubba Ho-tep, which really is a great film, is way more rewarding than time spent on this thread.

George Chandler
10-28-2017, 04:30 PM
That's what I think. Have you read Posner's book?


No admittedly I haven't read the book. I just know that a person who botches an easy shot like the one he tried prior to the assassination wouldn't be making the shots that were made with the JFK assassination...I'm telling ya it wasn't him on that trigger.

George Chandler
10-28-2017, 04:35 PM
Anyway, time spent watching Bubba Ho-tep, which really is a great film, is way more rewarding than time spent on this thread.

Well Bubba Ho-tep away my friend...I think the Warren Commission was spending more time watching that video too than actually investigating it. LOL

lgmayka
10-29-2017, 08:21 PM
Case Closed: Lee Harvey Oswald and the Assassination of JFK (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00F3QYGAG/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1).

Most people do not know what they are talking about when they discuss the assassination of JFK.
One might suspect that Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the President's nephew, does know more about this issue than most. His essay on the 50th anniversary of his uncle's death (https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/john-f-kennedys-vision-of-peace-20131120) mentions only one book: JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters (https://www.amazon.com/JFK-Unspeakable-Why-Died-Matters/dp/1570757550/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1509306078&sr=8-1&dpID=51HmoA0gtwL&preST=_SY344_BO1,204,203,200_QL70_&dpSrc=detail), by James W. Douglass. RFK Jr. writes:
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Nevertheless, as James W. Douglass argues in his book JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why It Matters, JFK's presidency would be a continuous struggle with his own military and intelligence agencies, which engaged in incessant schemes to trap him into escalating the Cold War into a hot one.
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JFK was realizing that the CIA posed a monumental threat to American democracy. As the brigade faltered, he told Arthur Schlesinger that he wanted to "splinter the CIA into a thousand pieces and scatter it to the winds."
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In a secret meeting with Ambassador Anatoly Dobrynin [during the Cuban missile crisis], my father told him, "If the situation continues much longer, the president is not sure that the military will not [B]overthrow him and seize power."
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My father was not exaggerating to Dobrynin the fragility of White House control over the military. During the 13 days, the president's hold on power became increasingly tenuous as spooks and generals, apoplectic at JFK's reluctance to attack Cuba, engaged in dozens of acts of insubordination designed to trigger a nuclear exchange. CIA spymaster William Harvey screamed at the president and my father during a White House meeting: "We wouldn't be in such trouble now if you guys had some balls in the Bay of Pigs." Defense analyst Daniel Ellsberg, who years later leaked the Pentagon Papers, reported, "There was virtually a coup atmosphere in Pentagon circles." Incensed brass were in a state of disbelief at what they considered bald treason by the president.
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Journalist Richard Starnes, filing from Vietnam, gave a stark assessment in The Washington Daily News of the CIA's unrestrained thirst for power in Vietnam. Starnes quoted high-level U.S. officials horrified by the CIA's role in escalating the conflict. They described an insubordinate, out-of-control agency, which one top official called a "malignancy." He doubted that "even the White House could control it any longer." Another warned, "If the United States ever experiences a [coup], it will come from the CIA and not from the Pentagon." Added another, "[Members of the CIA] represent tremendous power and total unaccountability to anyone."
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Dulles, fired by JFK after the Bay of Pigs, returned to public service when LBJ appointed him to the Warren Commission, where he systematically concealed the agency's involvement in various assassination schemes and its ties to organized crime. To a young writer, he revealed his continued resentment against JFK: "That little Kennedy . . . he thought he was a god."
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Please remember that the issue of assassination is entirely separate from agreement or disagreement with the President's personality or policies. Loyal Americans believe that disagreement with personality or policies is not a sufficient excuse for assassination.

George Chandler
10-30-2017, 12:43 AM
There were a lot of "things" going on at the time and the sum of all those things being brought into the light would have made the government look guilty (even though it wasn't). The problem is that the more you classify and tighten things up..the worse it looks for CIA, FBI, SS etc. I think J
Edgar was more worried about the Bureau looking bad in terms of a conspiracy than actually solving it. I think it's great that Trump is going to release the files because every time they are blocked it creates more problems. It's still going to block names and addresses and many (if not most) are now gone. It was a different time...some skeletons being revealed like the Cuban airplane parts but not really surprising. No question big personalities..lots of anger and egos with fingers being pointed at JFK but did that translate into an assassination by the US government..no.

Wheal
10-30-2017, 01:25 AM
I think Kennedy was killed because Johnson so desperately wanted to be President and because of his religion.

Wheal
10-30-2017, 01:26 AM
And Kennedy said he was going to get the CIA

George Chandler
07-29-2018, 11:45 PM
I was going through some of the newest file dump paperwork. One of the more interesting groups of files I found was regarding and individual known as Angelo Bruno. There was paperwork going back and forth between the director of the FBI, the US Embassy in Rome and their counterparts in Rome. He had been travelling to Italy in March and April 1963 and had suspected or known ties to Organized Crime in the US and Italy. There seemed to be a push from the Director of the FBI on Nov 6th 1963 to "ascertain his current whereabouts" in Italy. A known associate or member of the Chicago Organized Crime group and mentioned in cables coming from the Chicago Field Office of the FBI.


Not saying he was or wasn't involved in the assassination of JFK but his files were important enough to have made it into the JFK investigation and they were still hunting him in July 17th 1964 asking the Italian Police to "put him under surveillance" immediately if located. Another mentioned him being "armed and dangerous" with a penned underscore by the FBI case agent.

etrusco
07-30-2018, 03:06 PM
I was going through some of the newest file dump paperwork. One of the more interesting groups of files I found was regarding and individual known as Angelo Bruno. There was paperwork going back and forth between the director of the FBI, the US Embassy in Rome and their counterparts in Rome. He had been travelling to Italy in March and April 1963 and had suspected or known ties to Organized Crime in the US and Italy. There seemed to be a push from the Director of the FBI on Nov 6th 1963 to "ascertain his current whereabouts" in Italy. A known associate or member of the Chicago Organized Crime group and mentioned in cables coming from the Chicago Field Office of the FBI.


Not saying he was or wasn't involved in the assassination of JFK but his files were important enough to have made it into the JFK investigation and they were still hunting him in July 17th 1964 asking the Italian Police to "put him under surveillance" immediately if located. Another mentioned him being "armed and dangerous" with a penned underscore by the FBI case agent.


I think the Zapruder's film give the right answer so far: there was no lone shooter but at least two, because the shot that blew up Kennedy's head came from the front/right side. Remember the " back and to the left" in Oliver Stone's movie?
As for the real motive I think the attitude toward the cold war was the main one coupled with the fact that he was a member of a very rich and powerful family clan and he could hold grip on power for many years.

George Chandler
07-30-2018, 03:24 PM
I think the Zapruder's film give the right answer so far: there was no lone shooter but at least two, because the shot that blew up Kennedy's head came from the front/right side. Remember the " back and to the left" in Oliver Stone's movie?


Personally the forensic recreation of the shot confirms that the shot makes it appear that it came from a different direction. What I agree with was that there were two shooters at the same location and that Oswald was not the man behind the trigger pulls. This person had talent in terms of his shooting skill and it wasn't Oswald luck talent that pulled it off. He was there to help and take the blame.

etrusco
07-30-2018, 03:43 PM
Personally the forensic recreation of the shot confirms that the shot makes it appear that it came from a different direction. What I agree with was that there were two shooters at the same location and that Oswald was not the man behind the trigger pulls. This person had talent in terms of his shooting skill and it wasn't Oswald luck talent that pulled it off. He was there to help and take the blame.


I'm not aware of this forensic recreation. Can you give me some link on the internet?. The theory that the only spot was the book depository is not convincing IMHO. Not to rely much on the movie JFK but a collaborator of Garrison rightly observed that in general in assassination attempts the first shot is always the most precise....in dallas the most fatal was the last one...just imagine the psychological pressure on the shooter after he realized the first shots were not fatal.....no there were two ( maybe more) shooters and in at least two different locations. The shot from the grassy knoll was the first from that direction hence its precision and devastating effect. Also if there was a lone shooter in the book depository he would have shot Kennedy while the car was driving the other street before turning on Delay Plaza. ( I do not remember the name of the street now) so that he can shot him easily.

George Chandler
07-30-2018, 04:05 PM
I'm not aware of this forensic recreation. Can you give me some link on the internet?.

It was a television program. I'm sorry I can't remember the name of it? They used an ex Royal Marine sharpshooter with the same weapon, ammo, angle, wind and time. If I recall the only thing was the target was stationary and not moving.


IMHO the 1st shot was best shot just a bit low. If you want to put someone's lights out you go for the brain stem at the lower back of the skull. With his breathing off he hit low in the neck which was still a kill shot. You're right though that the pressure escalates with every shot because the threat of being located increases. The wind, high angle, time between shots, hits, moving target, importance of target etc says pro. This wasn't lucky Oswald. I still believe he was there..involved and did murder Tippits he just wasn't behind the trigger on JFK. The argument people make that Oswald was supposedly a good shot as some have said and argued doesn't cut it for me. At 18 I shot a deer in the lungs with a 30-06 no scope and just iron sights from almost 300 meters out. That didn't make me an expert sniper at 18. A good shot yes..but repeatedly putting something down range in those conditions under that pressure takes a pro because and it's a totally different animal (meaning the shot).

Webb
07-30-2018, 05:25 PM
I personally own and have fired a Mosin Nagant, which is very similar to the Mannlicher Carcano that Oswald used. It is deadly accurate, but for one shot. After the first shot you loose accuracy if trying to get off subsequent rounds quickly. I know the Mannlicher Carcano has been field tested, and I believe only one person has ever duplicated the accuracy and speed that Oswald would have had to use during the assassination. Kennedy wasn't a political player, but Johnson was.

George Chandler
07-30-2018, 06:34 PM
I've never shot one myself but the weapon usually take the blame for the bad shot. It's usually always human error in one form or another.