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Trojet
12-11-2015, 07:22 PM
Just wanted to share some info regarding J2b2 in Albanians.

In our Albanian project so far we have 10 members who are J2b2-L283. Out of these, 4 of us are either confirmed or predicted as Z1296 (Z1297-), 1 is Z638 (Z1296-), while for the rest of them we don't have enough info to place them downstream of L283, Z590.

*Important to note that all of our current J2b2 samples are coming from northern (Gheg) area. Some kits are not viewable in public due to privacy settings:
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AlbanianBloodlines?iframe=yresults

There is also a J2b2 Albanian sample from Tirana, Albania from Estonian Biocentre Data tested as Z1297* (Z1295-): www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1a1a

Dr_McNinja
01-06-2016, 07:53 PM
Saudi J2b2 which tested with FTDNA's J2 SNP pack is in J-Y954* (along with a GIH individual)

http://yfull.com/tree/J2/ (Not listed here, they're on FTDNA)

Too bad they didn't get the full NGS test so we can't see how recently they split off. That would give a date as to when some J2b2 from the SW-Indian branch left India for Arabia.

Dr_McNinja
01-06-2016, 08:07 PM
What the heck is L485 on FTDNA's tree? It's parallel to Z2432 and L283

Trojet
01-06-2016, 08:17 PM
What the heck is L485 on FTDNA's tree? It's parallel to Z2432 and L283

Yeah, I noticed that too. Could it be an equivalent SNP of L1480/M7586 (J2b2a3?): www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a

Dr_McNinja
01-06-2016, 08:24 PM
If it turns out that's a real thing in SE-Asia, that would make this subclade even more interesting and mysterious than it already is.

Trojet
01-06-2016, 10:48 PM
Yes, this SE Asian branch (www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a) is very interesting, parallel to L283 and Z2432. This could mean that it is likely M241 diversified in the early Neolithic (www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/) in today's Iran or even closer to Pakistan/India and later L283 or its immediate "ancestor" migrated to the Balkans during the Copper Age or early Bronze Age. TMRCA of L283 according to YFull tree v3.18 is 5800 ybp: www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

slamberty
02-01-2016, 02:26 AM
Thanks for the response. I actually did see this already but thanks for sharing it nonetheless. I actually just found out the other day that my uncle also decided to take the DNA test offered through National Geographic (Geno 2.0). The interesting thing about it is this test offered different results than 23andMe. While his maternal haplogroup remained the same, his, and therefore my, paternal lineage was determined to be J-M92/CTS2906, which if I'm not mistaken is a subclade of J2a. I noticed that 23andMe recently updated/upgraded their website and while my DNA test results changed somewhat, especially after I linked my mother's account with my own, in terms of population groups, my maternal and paternal haplogroups remained the same. I know that the two tests are different (23andMe is a saliva based test while National Geographic is a cheek swab if I'm not mistaken) but I really didn't expect that to make that big of a difference seeing as how in the end, it's looking at DNA regardless (I could be wrong though for all I know). But what I'm trying to get at is, which test should I believe? I know that money is ultimately a factor in the end and I've read varying reviews for each source but from the looks of it, in general both sources have a good reputation. I also know that National Geographic's test has a scientific (rather than genealogical) emphasis while 23andMe has a genetic genealogy emphasis. If there's anybody out there who has had the same sort of experience and/or could offer a second opinion, that would be greatly appreciated. In any event, thank you for the input.

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 03:44 AM
Thanks for the response. I actually did see this already but thanks for sharing it nonetheless. I actually just found out the other day that my uncle also decided to take the DNA test offered through National Geographic (Geno 2.0). The interesting thing about it is this test offered different results than 23andMe. While his maternal haplogroup remained the same, his, and therefore my, paternal lineage was determined to be J-M92/CTS2906, which if I'm not mistaken is a subclade of J2a. I noticed that 23andMe recently updated/upgraded their website and while my DNA test results changed somewhat, especially after I linked my mother's account with my own, in terms of population groups, my maternal and paternal haplogroups remained the same. I know that the two tests are different (23andMe is a saliva based test while National Geographic is a cheek swab if I'm not mistaken) but I really didn't expect that to make that big of a difference seeing as how in the end, it's looking at DNA regardless (I could be wrong though for all I know). But what I'm trying to get at is, which test should I believe? I know that money is ultimately a factor in the end and I've read varying reviews for each source but from the looks of it, in general both sources have a good reputation. I also know that National Geographic's test has a scientific (rather than genealogical) emphasis while 23andMe has a genetic genealogy emphasis. If there's anybody out there who has had the same sort of experience and/or could offer a second opinion, that would be greatly appreciated. In any event, thank you for the input.

Can you export your Geno 2.0 data and check the Y-DNA results? Are you positive for M241?

FTDNA/Geno 2.0 are not the most reliable when it comes to placing people.

slamberty
02-01-2016, 04:55 AM
Again it wasn't my test results for Geno 2.0, it was my uncles so he would have to do that from his end. But going by what you said in regards to FTDNA (Family Tree DNA I'm assuming) and Geno 2.0, I guess that would provide me with some clarity there that 23andMe would be the more reliable source and that therefore I'm more likely J2b2*. Thanks for the input. By the way, may I ask where you got your DNA test results from?

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2016, 05:52 PM
23andMe, FTDNA, Geno 2.0, and Full Genomes all reported me as J2b2-M241

slamberty
02-01-2016, 08:03 PM
I see, yeah despite being initially surprised I was ultimately content with my results through 23andMe so on my part I wasn't planning on spending any more money on DNA testing/pursuing it any further.

Dr_McNinja
02-10-2016, 02:18 AM
My friend turned out to be Z2437+ Z2443- Y965+ and Y947-. I'm testing Y972 (at the level of Y947) just to be sure but it looks like he'd be J-Y950*. His paternal line is from New Delhi about three generations back.

YSEQ ID: 3415

slamberty
03-29-2016, 09:19 AM
Here's something that I found recently. It's a basic family tree of YDNA haplogroup IJ, courtesy of the group Cultural Anthropology of Haplogroup J2 on Facebook, which I belong to.

8462

slamberty
04-11-2016, 11:25 PM
I don't know if anyone was able to see that family tree in full resolution or not, it should be 1800x1350.

Trojet
05-18-2016, 09:29 PM
DYS617=12 (rather than >= 13) appears to be a good predictor for belonging to J-Z1296 or below.

Indeed. DYS617 has turned out to be a good predictor. In the J-M241 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about) so far all confirmed J-Z1296+ samples are DYS617=12. Whereas all confirmed J-CTS3617,Y15058+ samples (a "brother" branch of J-Z1296) are DYS617=>13, with only one exception: recently a member through BigY proved to belong to J-CTS3617,Y15058 branch with DYS617=12.

Also DYS456, DYS607 = 13, 13 so far appears to be a good predictor for J-Z1297 (Z1295-)

All this is useful considering the fact that there appears to be many overlapping haplotypes, especially downstream of J-Z638>Z1296.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

pemtas
06-22-2016, 10:51 PM
Trojet - I am also from Western Macedonia (Greece) - consider ourselves as Hellenized Albanians (Arvaniti) and my results from Genome 2 came in
at M241 - J2b2. Regional ancestry 42%Southern European, 29% Asia Minor and 29%Eastern Europe .First reference population is Greek and second is Romanian.
Y-DNA J-Z588.

Can you add some insight into these results.

Trojet
06-22-2016, 11:02 PM
Trojet - I am also from Western Macedonia (Greece) - consider ourselves as Hellenized Albanians (Arvaniti) and my results from Genome 2 came in
at M241 - J2b2. Regional ancestry 42%Southern European, 29% Asia Minor and 29%Eastern Europe .First reference population is Greek and second is Romanian.
Y-DNA J-Z588.

Can you add some insight into these results.

Greetings :)
I suppose you have taken Geno 2.0 NG. For Y-DNA, J-Z588 is equivalent to J2b2a1-L283 (Balkan/European Branch of M241):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Can you please transfer results to www.familytreedna.com and join the J-M241 Project. We should be able to see if you have any calls downstream of J-L283, Z588 to be able to determine a more specific subclade: https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about

Though Geno 2.0 NG doesn't offer a very good Y haplogroup resolution.

EDIT: As far as your autosomal (overall DNA) results are concerned, it depends on what reference populations/calculators Geno 2.0 NG uses. I don't really know any other Balkan people who have taken that specific test, so can't say much how you would compare.

olive picker
06-22-2016, 11:49 PM
What is the % of j2b2 in Greece? I have a j2b2 relative in Athens (probably arvanite)

Trojet
06-22-2016, 11:55 PM
What is the % of j2b2 in Greece? I have a j2b2 relative in Athens (probably arvanite)

It's about 5-6%. It's more common in mainland Greece and northern areas though. Some of it can be due to Arvanites, but some I suppose is not.

olive picker
06-22-2016, 11:59 PM
It's about 5-6%. It's more common in mainland Greece and northern areas though. Some of it can be due to Arvanites, but some I suppose is not.

Seems like the percentage is too small for it not to be due to Arvanites though? Even then, Arvanites aren't the only Albanian population that assimilated into Greece.

Trojet
06-23-2016, 12:02 AM
Trojet - I am also from Western Macedonia (Greece) - consider ourselves as Hellenized Albanians (Arvaniti) and my results from Genome 2 came in
at M241 - J2b2. Regional ancestry 42%Southern European, 29% Asia Minor and 29%Eastern Europe .First reference population is Greek and second is Romanian.
Y-DNA J-Z588.

Can you add some insight into these results.

Thanks for joining J-M241 Project at FTDNA!
I see the most downstream tested SNP/subclade you have is Z1297+ and Z1295-. Therefore you are J2b2-Z1297 (Z1295-):
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1297/

There is actually a couple of Albanians who are even in the same subclade as you J-Z1297 (Z1295-) in our Albanian project, so you are welcomed to join our Albanian project too :): https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about

Trojet
06-23-2016, 12:13 AM
Seems like the percentage is too small for it not to be due to Arvanites though? Even then, Arvanites aren't the only Albanian population that assimilated into Greece.

There is actually a couple of people from Greece who have done deep SNP testing and they belong to a J2b2 subclade that hasn't been found among an Albanian yet, one of them is Vlach though. So not all of it can be due to Arvanites.

olive picker
06-23-2016, 08:29 AM
There is actually a couple of people from Greece who have done deep SNP testing and they belong to a J2b2 subclade that hasn't been found among an Albanian yet, one of them is Vlach though. So not all of it can be due to Arvanites.

yeah, yet is the keyword, hopefully more albanians test in the future :/

Illyro-Vlach
06-23-2016, 04:03 PM
There is actually a couple of people from Greece who have done deep SNP testing and they belong to a J2b2 subclade that hasn't been found among an Albanian yet, one of them is Vlach though. So not all of it can be due to Arvanites.


Any idea where this Greek Vlach is from?

Trojet
06-23-2016, 04:35 PM
Any idea where this Greek Vlach is from?

Yes. He has listed Metsovo area, Greece (NW Greece). He is actually predicted by STRs to belong in the same branch as your Croatian friend, J2b2-CTS3617, Y15058
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

They don't seem to be close. Your friend is not at J-M241 Project, so I can quickly see what their GD is at 67 markers.

Illyro-Vlach
06-23-2016, 04:46 PM
Yes. He has listed Metsovo area, Greece (NW Greece). He is actually predicted by STRs to belong in the same branch as your Croatian friend, J2b2-CTS3617, Y15058
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

They don't seem to be close. Your friend is not at J-M241 Project, so I can quickly see what their GD is at 67 markers.

Metsovo is in the Pindus mountains, right in the heart of the Aroumanian-populated areas. Makes perfect sense.

I ask because there are unproven claims that Vlachs who fled the Pindus Mountains in Thessaly in the 14th century went north all the way to Hercegovina.

procoptodon
06-24-2016, 11:12 PM
I am Jz600

Dr_McNinja
06-27-2016, 10:49 AM
Just a recent thought: If Anatolians spread farming into Europe, and European J2b2-M241 (L283) did NOT hitch a ride with them (or even if it did)... then where did it come from? Because the other branch is in India and Anatolians did not spread farming into India. Neolithic Iranians likely did, and the new study indicates they were distinct from Neolithic Anatolians.

J2b1 and J2b are found in high frequencies in Anatolia, right?

Trojet
06-27-2016, 11:50 AM
Just a recent thought: If Anatolians spread farming into Europe, and European J2b2-M241 (L283) did NOT hitch a ride with them (or even if it did)... then where did it come from? Because the other branch is in India and Anatolians did not spread farming into India. Neolithic Iranians likely did, and the new study indicates they were distinct from Neolithic Anatolians.

J2b1 and J2b are found in high frequencies in Anatolia, right?

Yeah, I don't think J2b2-L283 in Balkans/Europe is since the Neolithic anymore. For now, I'll stick with this theory I came up with some months ago :P (most likely the period between Copper Age and Bronze Age). We need more ancient DNA, especially from the Balkans though.


Yes, this SE Asian branch (www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a) is very interesting, parallel to L283 and Z2432. This could mean that it is likely M241 diversified in the early Neolithic (www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/) in today's Iran and later L283 or its descendants migrated to the Balkans during the Copper Age or early Bronze Age. TMRCA of L283 according to YFull tree v3.18 is 5800 ybp: www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Dr_McNinja
06-28-2016, 03:27 AM
But even then, how did Neolithic Iranians come to be Neolithic Anatolians who are genetically distinct? The obvious answer would be that somehow J2b2-M241 predates both groups and Z2432 wound up in Iran or the Caucasus (or even India itself) and L283 wound up in Anatolia. But we have no idea who a common ancestor population of both groups could be at this point.

Even if it was Neolithic Levant and not Neolithic Anatolia, same rule applies. Unless there are other Neolithic populations associated with the spread of farming we haven't discovered yet.

parasar
06-28-2016, 04:00 AM
Just a recent thought: If Anatolians spread farming into Europe, and European J2b2-M241 (L283) did NOT hitch a ride with them (or even if it did)... then where did it come from? Because the other branch is in India and Anatolians did not spread farming into India. Neolithic Iranians likely did, and the new study indicates they were distinct from Neolithic Anatolians.

J2b1 and J2b are found in high frequencies in Anatolia, right?

The Aegean area (EEF, Greece, the Balkans, W. Anatolia) may indeed be the initial trigger for the Neolithics and not the southern Levant. Look at what Lazaridis shows - that it is not the EEF but the Levantines who spread to Africa circa 3000bc. But prior to 3000bc we also see a change in the Levant which I believe is due to EEF coming into contact with the Levant. This same type of change as in Africa also occurs in Iran via the Levant. Once the contacts have been made, we see a very significant Chalcolithic expansion from Iran that goes into the Levant and also to Anatolia.

1. "Among first farmers, those of the Levant trace ~2/3 of their ancestry to people related to Natufian hunter-gatherers and ~1/3 to people related to Anatolian farmers"
2. "The Chalcolithic people of western Iran can be modelled as a mixture of the Neolithic people of western Iran, the Levant, and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG)"
3. "Admixture from populations related to the Chalcolithic people of western Iran had a wide impact, consistent with contributing ~44% of the ancestry of Levantine Bronze Age populations in the south and ~33% of the ancestry of the Chalcolithic northwest Anatolians in the west"

Gravetto-Danubian
06-28-2016, 04:54 AM
The Aegean area (EEF, Greece, the Balkans, W. Anatolia) may indeed be the initial trigger for the Neolithics and not the southern Levant. Look at what Lazaridis shows - that it is not the EEF but the Levantines who spread to Africa circa 3000bc. But prior to 3000bc we also see a change in the Levant which I believe is due to EEF coming into contact with the Levant. This same type of change as in Africa also occurs in Iran via the Levant. Once the contacts have been made, we see a very significant Chalcolithic expansion from Iran that goes into the Levant and also to Anatolia.

1. "Among first farmers, those of the Levant trace ~2/3 of their ancestry to people related to Natufian hunter-gatherers and ~1/3 to people related to Anatolian farmers"
2. "The Chalcolithic people of western Iran can be modelled as a mixture of the Neolithic people of western Iran, the Levant, and Caucasus Hunter Gatherers (CHG)"
3. "Admixture from populations related to the Chalcolithic people of western Iran had a wide impact, consistent with contributing ~44% of the ancestry of Levantine Bronze Age populations in the south and ~33% of the ancestry of the Chalcolithic northwest Anatolians in the west"

I really doubt that the Aegean was the initial trigger of the Neolithic, and by 'doubt', I mean I'd be comfortable to dismiss that idea wholly - at least with regard to the Balkans/ Greece.
Central - eastern Anatolia on the other hand certainly, but I wouldn't really call that "Aegean". The problem even with Anatolia is the poverty of Epipalaeolithic sites to really confirm a 'native' transformation into farming, no doubt in part due to lack of significant Palaeolithic research traditions in Turkey (focussing on Troy , Hittiets and other more 'glamorous' periods). Even still, I think Anatolia would be an active peripheray at best, which adopted Neolithic and became a staging post for Europe. The Aegean islands show early seaborne trade and certain pre-Neolithic resources, but alone they're too meagre to count as any sort of trigger.

So we need Palaeolithic / Mesolithic aDNA from Greece, Anatolia & Levant to really clarify this issue, but I really doubt it will change the notion of farming beginning in the Fertile Crescent.

olive picker
07-31-2016, 02:18 AM
This thread should be cleaned. Way too much fantasy going around regarding "Alexander the Great".

Trojet
07-31-2016, 06:53 AM
This thread should be cleaned. Way too much fantasy going around regarding "Alexander the Great".

Before deep subclade testing, I always found very hard to believe the theory that J2b2 was spread to South Asia by Alexander the Great's Balkan army who somehow didn't bring any other Balkan Y-DNA to that region.

With Y-sequencing it's now proven that all J2b2-M241 in Balkans/Europe belongs to SNP L283, while all South Asian belongs to Z2432 which split ca. 9100 ybp from each other:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

Gravetto-Danubian
07-31-2016, 07:12 AM
With Y-sequencing it's now proven that all J2b2-M241 in Balkans/Europe belongs to SNP L283, while all South Asian belongs to Z2432 which split ca. 9100 ybp from each other:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

Is there any observable patterning for other branches of J2 (eg J2b1, J2a)?

From aDNA so far we have:

- pre J1b and J2a in LUP/ Mesolithic Georgia
- J1 in Mesolithic Karelia
- J2a Mesolithic Iran (Hotu)

- J2b*: in Neolithic Iran (AH2)
- J2a in 1 of the Mathieson Anatolian neolithics
- 2 x J2-something (M172 n.f.t.) in (late) Neolithic Hungary (Nagy;s PhD; Lengyel & sopot cultures)

- J2a copper age Iran

- J2b1: in levant Bronze Age
- J1 in levant Bronze Age

No J2b2 yet ?

Pribislav
07-31-2016, 10:28 AM
Is there any observable patterning for other branches of J2 (eg J2b1, J2a)?

From aDNA so far we have:

- pre J1b and J2a in LUP/ Mesolithic Georgia
- J1 in Mesolithic Karelia
- J2a Mesolithic Iran (Hotu)

- J2b*: in Neolithic Iran (AH2)
- J2a in 1 of the Mathieson Anatolian neolithics
- 2 x J2-something (M172 n.f.t.) in (late) Neolithic Hungary (Nagy;s PhD; Lengyel & sopot cultures)

- J2a copper age Iran

- J2b1: in levant Bronze Age
- J1 in levant Bronze Age

No J2b2 yet ?

RISE408 (1209-1009 BC), Armenia, J2b2a-Z590

Gravetto-Danubian
07-31-2016, 10:40 AM
RISE408 (1209-1009 BC), Armenia, J2b2a-Z590

How could i forget Armenia
That sample seems under the "European" branch

Trojet
07-31-2016, 12:09 PM
RISE408 (1209-1009 BC), Armenia, J2b2a-Z590


How could i forget Armenia
That sample seems under the "European" branch

Yes, RISE408 (1209-1009 BC) Late Bronze Age Armenia is the only J2b2 aDNA found so far. It was tested as J2b2-Z590, Z600 (xZ627). (www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?4664-Request-Y-DNA-haplogroup-results-from-Allentoft-2015&p=94487&viewfull=1#post94487)

I wonder whether it may have been part of an expansion from the Balkans. Since this is a basal L283 ("European" branch), I think it's more likely that it is native to Armenia/Anatolia. However, surviving basal L283 lineages so far have only been found in Europe:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

olive picker
07-31-2016, 01:31 PM
Before deep subclade testing, I always found very hard to believe the theory that J2b2 was spread to South Asia by Alexander the Great's Balkan army who somehow didn't bring any other Balkan Y-DNA to that region.


It's just such a stupid theory. I really hope an admin cleans this thread, or locks it and allows for a new one. This thread is packed with nonsense.

Dr_McNinja
07-31-2016, 04:35 PM
It's just such a stupid theory. I really hope an admin cleans this thread, or locks it and allows for a new one. This thread is packed with nonsense.
That's why threads go on in time with new posts in new pages discussing newer developments. Feel free to create a newer thread if old posts in this one offend you. Otherwise, stay on topic please.

Trojet
08-01-2016, 07:23 AM
That's why threads go on in time with new posts in new pages discussing newer developments. Feel free to create a newer thread if old posts in this one offend you. Otherwise, stay on topic please.

I do think this thread has been very informative overall. The best there is regarding J2b2-M241, IMO.

However, I think this nonsense and derogatory posts by user "Rokousa" should be deleted (all three of them):
www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1244-J2b2-(J-M241)&p=47146&viewfull=1#post47146

olive picker
08-01-2016, 01:43 PM
I do think this thread has been very informative overall. The best there is regarding J2b2-M241, IMO.

However, I think this nonsense and derogatory posts by user "Rokousa" should be deleted (all three of them):
www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1244-J2b2-(J-M241)&p=47146&viewfull=1#post47146

Doubt he will do it since Mcninja even liked his posts.

Dr_McNinja
08-01-2016, 06:17 PM
I removed and edited out the offensive statements. Olive picker, stay on topic.

olive picker
08-08-2016, 04:33 PM
Ok, so what is the general consensus regarding the history of this haplogroup?

Dr_McNinja
08-11-2016, 09:58 PM
M241-L283 possibly spread from Neolithic Anatolia...

Until we find it in ancient DNA, we'll forever be guessing

olive picker
08-15-2016, 05:31 AM
M241-L283 possibly spread from Neolithic Anatolia...

Until we find it in ancient DNA, we'll forever be guessing

Hopefully we will get more data soon, it is a rather unique and interesting haplogroup (not biased :unsure:)

PMCGUN04
08-19-2016, 01:14 PM
My step-son just came back J2b2* from 23andme. English surname Warden. He wont be expecting that result.

MJost

MJost,

My last name is Warden (FTDNA #507599) It is a very difficult name to track down, numerous spelling variations, geographical ties (i.e. Normandy, Germany, Netherlands, Denmark, Scotland, England, etc..) Check out my FTDNA results and my other (couple) of posts (not many, longtime viewer, newbie poster). Any info I can provide in terms of genealogy I am happy to provide just PM me. My Warden family goes back to TN, KY, NC, VA, Scotland/Ireland. Earliest relative is Robert Warden came over to "one of the Carolinas as early as 1755".

Trojet
08-25-2016, 11:56 AM
We had a kit with origins in Portugal join the J-M241 project. According to Geno 2 NG, he has tested as J2b2a1-L283+ (Z600-) and may belong to J-YP29 found in Sardinia. This obviously raises the question from where and how L283 expanded, considering the wide (north) Mediterranien spread of early L283 branches, which are absent from the Balkans:
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Dr_McNinja
09-26-2016, 11:26 PM
In case any happen by, I no longer recommend Asian/Middle Eastern/South Asian J2b2* users purchase the J2-M172 SNP Pack from Family Tree DNA as they have removed approximately half the tree from the test.

The equivalent test from YSEQ.net is cheaper ($99) and more exhaustive:

https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=11093&osCsid=edc238e5d887aea1f2a1b516b6252de4

You can join the J-M241 project at FTDNA if you have taken a Y-STR test from them and e-mail us the results from the YSEQ test and we'll place you in the appropriate category. ChrisR can still add you to his tree found at j2-m172.info

Marjeta
10-30-2016, 08:58 PM
Thank you, Vince T! I ordered some SNP test and my fothers sample (J-Z639+) is Z8428 -, Z8429-, CTS11760-, Z8425-, PH1656- (negative). I am waithing for results of Z1043. I do not understand really FTDNA J-M241 tree. Near Z1043 is also written Z8425 and I am wondering if it is possible that all who are negative for Z8425 are also negative for Z1043. In Yseq the J2 tree is different, Z1043 branch is ancestral to Z8425. Anyway, I observed also STR markers and found that (till now) only two samples (inside J2b) match AT THE SAME TIME on THREE markers: DYS385a=10, DYS439=11 and DYS458=17 like my fother Manfreda. Both are from Sicilia. Maybe I should waith and when more samples J2b from south Italy will be available, I can try to test the same SNPs than they will have +. Do you have maybe some other idea? Thank you very mutch!

Marjeta
10-30-2016, 09:05 PM
Thank you, Vince T! I ordered some SNP test and my fothers sample (J-Z639+) is Z8428 -, Z8429-, CTS11760-, Z8425-, PH1656- (negative). I am waithing for results of Z1043. I do not understand really FTDNA J-M241 tree. Near Z1043 is also written Z8425 and I am wondering if it is possible that all who are negative for Z8425 are also negative for Z1043. In Yseq the J2 tree is different, Z1043 branch is ancestral to Z8425. Anyway, I observed also STR markers and found that (till now) only two samples (inside J2b) match AT THE SAME TIME on THREE markers: DYS385a=10, DYS439=11 and DYS458=17 like my fother Manfreda. Both are from Sicilia. Maybe I should waith and when more samples J2b from south Italy will be available, I can try to test the same SNPs than they will have +. Do you have maybe some other idea? Thank you very mutch! :)

MiraOsijek
11-06-2016, 07:45 PM
Trojet - I am also from Western Macedonia (Greece) - consider ourselves as Hellenized Albanians (Arvaniti) and my results from Genome 2 came in
at M241 - J2b2. Regional ancestry 42%Southern European, 29% Asia Minor and 29%Eastern Europe .First reference population is Greek and second is Romanian.
Y-DNA J-Z588.

Can you add some insight into these results.

My father is also (Y) DNA J-Z588 (M241). :) We live in Croatia, his parents (my grandparents) lived in Dalmatian part of Croatia. We are Croatian/Catholics for the last 300 years of the official family history (status animarum).

Trojet
11-06-2016, 08:21 PM
My father is also (Y) DNA J-Z588 (M241). :) We live in Croatia, his parents (my grandparents) lived in Dalmatian part of Croatia. We are Croatian/Catholics for the last 300 years of the official family history (status animarum).

Hi. I believe your father's kit at J-M241 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about) is N219128 (Geno 2.0 Next Gen).
SNP analysis shows this kit is tested as: J2b2a-M241+ L283+ Z628+ Z638-. Since its negative for Z638 that means below Z628 it belongs to CTS3617,Y15058 branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

Illyro-Vlach
11-06-2016, 11:48 PM
My father is also (Y) DNA J-Z588 (M241). :) We live in Croatia, his parents (my grandparents) lived in Dalmatian part of Croatia. We are Croatian/Catholics for the last 300 years of the official family history (status animarum).


Pozdrav Mira!

Where specifically in Dalmatia is your father from? I am also J2.

MiraOsijek
11-07-2016, 06:37 PM
Hi. I believe your father's kit at J-M241 Project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-241/about) is N219128 (Geno 2.0 Next Gen).
SNP analysis shows this kit is tested as: J2b2a-M241+ L283+ Z628+ Z638-. Since its negative for Z638 that means below Z628 it belongs to CTS3617,Y15058 branch: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y15058/

Thank you, Trojet! :) What should I do from now on? I'm new into this field and have a lot to learn. I will also test my mother (I have Family Tree DNA kit for her at home) and myself till the end of this year.

Edit: N219128 is my fahter's kit, that's correct.




Pozdrav Mira!

Where specifically in Dalmatia is your father from? I am also J2.

Bok, Illyro-Vlach! :) My grandparents were from Imotski. Nice to meet you.

Trojet
11-07-2016, 07:50 PM
Thank you, Trojet! :) What should I do from now on? I'm new into this field and have a lot to learn.

Edit: N219128 is my fahter's kit, that's correct.

It depends on what your goals are for this kit. If you'd like to potentially find Y-cousins (now or in the future) within the last 1000 years and possibly predict a deeper subclade below J2b2a-CTS3617,Y15058, I would order Y-DNA67 from FTDNA. It should be on sale starting on Thanksgiving.

Illyro-Vlach
11-07-2016, 11:21 PM
Bok, Illyro-Vlach! :) My grandparents were from Imotski. Nice to meet you.


Nice to meet you too! Imotski is not all that far from me as I'm from Livno.

MiraOsijek
11-08-2016, 05:37 AM
Nice to meet you too! Imotski is not all that far from me as I'm from Livno.

Please, send me your email in private message, I can't contact you because I must have at least 10 posts in order to send PM's. Thank you. :)

MiraOsijek
11-08-2016, 05:47 AM
It depends on what your goals are for this kit. If you'd like to potentially find Y-cousins (now or in the future) within the last 1000 years and possibly predict a deeper subclade below J2b2a-CTS3617,Y15058, I would order Y-DNA67 from FTDNA. It should be on sale starting on Thanksgiving.

Of course I want to know! :) I want to know everything and I'm eager "to meet" my "new old family". Thanksgiving is... I have to check, ok, on the fourth Thursday of November. Y-dn67, here we come. :)

olive picker
11-08-2016, 09:37 PM
welcome to the club

MiraOsijek
11-10-2016, 02:43 AM
Thank you, olive picker! ☺

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2016, 01:58 AM
Things are moving in the J2b2-Z2432 branch:

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

And there's another person in the FTDNA J-M241 project from Syria who just got Big Y done and is in Z2432. They'll submit to YFull eventually.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2016, 03:07 PM
ERR445280 - Gujarati Hindu
ERR445235 - Punjabi Sikh
ERR445256 - Christian Konkani
ERR445277 - Gujarati Jain

BMG
11-25-2016, 10:30 AM
ERR445280 - Gujarati Hindu
ERR445235 - Punjabi Sikh
ERR445256 - Christian Konkani
ERR445277 - Gujarati Jain

From which study are these samples from ?
Is there any other konkani Christian results available?

TuaMan
12-09-2016, 12:41 AM
This summer I finally got around to testing with 23andMe, and my y-dna turned up J2b2*. Does that mean I genuinely carry the basal branch of J2b2, or is 23andMe's resolution not that fine, and I should order an FTDNA y-67 or y-111 test to reveal what downstream branch I might belong to?

Trojet
12-09-2016, 12:49 AM
This summer I finally got around to testing with 23andMe, and my y-dna turned up J2b2*. Does that mean I genuinely carry the basal branch of J2b2, or is 23andMe's resolution not that fine, and I should order an FTDNA y-67 or y-111 test to reveal what downstream branch I might belong to?

No, I can almost guarantee you will belong downstream of J2b2a-M241. 23andMe just doesn't test below it. Have a look at J-M241 YFull tree: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/
There is two main branches below it: L283 "European" and Z2432 "South Asian"
May I ask, what's the country of origin of your paternal line?

You may order Y-DNA67 from FTDNA or another option is the J2-M172 Superclade Panel from YSEQ which will test for many sublcades downstream of J-M241: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=11093

Trojet
12-09-2016, 01:29 AM
There is an interesting BigY result. A person with seemingly NorthWest European origins is tested as J2b2a1-L283 (xZ600,Z627), which is an early split of J-L283 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/).
12947

TuaMan
12-10-2016, 02:42 PM
My family are Albanians from Montenegro, Hoti tribe.

To the two Croatian members in this thread, Illyro-Vlach and Mira, I have to say my eyes immediately lit up a bit when I read that your y-results were also J2b2, because the clan/tribe that my family comes from had a tradition of originally migrating to their-present day area from Bosnia to escape the Turks. And a little over a 100 years ago now, an English woman named Edith Durham visited the area of northern Albania and Kosovo and wrote a travelogue about her experience there called "High Albania." She noted in that work that highland Catholic and Muslim Albanians which traced their clan origins to the area of Bosnia shared the same custom of tattooing as certain Bosnian Catholic communities:

"There are certain old Roman Catholic communities in Bosnia that have preserved to this day the ancient Illyrian custom of tattooing. This is never practised by the Orthodox or Moslem Slavs, but is common among both Catholic and Moslem Albanians. It is therefore possible that these tattooed Bosnians, though now Serbophone, descend from the pre-Slavonic inhabitants, and have not yet lost the custom of putting on a distinguishing mark. It is of special interest to note that, of the present tribes in North Albania, the most tattooed are those that relate that they fled from Bosnia to avoid the Turks."

Trojet
12-10-2016, 02:56 PM
My family are Albanians from Montenegro, Hoti tribe.

To the two Croatian members in this thread, Illyro-Vlach and Mira, I have to say my eyes immediately lit up a bit when I read that your y-results were also J2b2, because the clan/tribe that my family comes from had a tradition of originally migrating to their-present day area from Bosnia to escape the Turks. And a little over a 100 years ago now, an English woman named Edith Durham visited the area of northern Albania and Kosovo and wrote a travelogue about her experience there called "High Albania." She noted in that work that highland Catholic and Muslim Albanians which traced their clan origins to the area of Bosnia shared the same custom of tattooing as certain Bosnian Catholic communities:

"There are certain old Roman Catholic communities in Bosnia that have preserved to this day the ancient Illyrian custom of tattooing. This is never practised by the Orthodox or Moslem Slavs, but is common among both Catholic and Moslem Albanians. It is therefore possible that these tattooed Bosnians, though now Serbophone, descend from the pre-Slavonic inhabitants, and have not yet lost the custom of putting on a distinguishing mark. It is of special interest to note that, of the present tribes in North Albania, the most tattooed are those that relate that they fled from Bosnia to avoid the Turks."

We have a FamilyTreeDNA Albanian project (https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/albanian-bloodlines/about), and we actually have a Hoti member tested at FTDNA (Y37). Even though we are not certain what J2b2 terminal subclade he belongs to, I have not seen a Bosnian/Croatian J2b2 that clusters with our Hoti example (yet).

I suggest you test at FTDNA. You may order through our project (Y37 or better Y67): https://www.familytreedna.com/group-join.aspx?group=AlbanianBloodlines&code=B11086

You might have to test some SNPs to find the terminal subclade though.

Illyro-Vlach
12-17-2016, 03:22 AM
A friend of mine from Germany just sent me a message saying that he has completed his BigY test. He is a Croatian from seven villages away from mine. He stated that he is his own branch for now :) I've asked him for his results and his permission to post them here. I'll be doing my BigY soon and I'm pretty certain that I'll end up on his branch.

Illyro-Vlach
12-17-2016, 12:01 PM
My friend has informed me that he has been assigned J-PH1601 making him the only person on that branch.

Here is J-PH1602 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) for the sake of comparison.

Trojet
12-17-2016, 01:18 PM
A friend of mine from Germany just sent me a message saying that he has completed his BigY test. He is a Croatian from seven villages away from mine. He stated that he is his own branch for now :) I've asked him for his results and his permission to post them here. I'll be doing my BigY soon and I'm pretty certain that I'll end up on his branch.

That's assuming you have already tested at FTDNA, otherwise you can't take the BigY test if you haven't tested at FTDNA (Y12, Y37, etc). If you have, I may be able to predict your subclade ;)

Yes, your friend is in the J2b2-PH1602 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) subclade. It also doesn't look like he shares any of BGR and USA samples private SNPs. We have to wait until his YFull analysis is done to confirm this though.

Illyro-Vlach
12-17-2016, 04:02 PM
That's assuming you have already tested at FTDNA, otherwise you can't take the BigY test if you haven't tested at FTDNA (Y12, Y37, etc). If you have, I may be able to predict your subclade ;)

I haven't done anything at FTDNA yet so I'll order the Y-67 and start from there.


Yes, your friend is in the J2b2-PH1602 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) subclade. It also doesn't look like he shares any of BGR and USA samples private SNPs. We have to wait until his YFull analysis is done to confirm this though.

Exactly what he told me this morning. He says that he shares some 26,000 SNPs with the American in that subclade, many new alleles.

Trojet
12-17-2016, 04:16 PM
I haven't done anything at FTDNA yet so I'll order the Y-67 and start from there.



Exactly what he told me this morning. He says that he shares some 26,000 SNPs with the American in that subclade, many new alleles.

Yes, Y-DNA67 is a great start. J2b2-PH1602 (TMRCA 3400 ybp) seems to be quite diverse in the area of Croatia/Bosnia. With Y67, I should be able to predict it with a 100% certainty, if you actually belong there. Of course if you match your friend at 67 markers, that's even better, and would not have to take the BigY, IMO.

Illyro-Vlach
12-17-2016, 05:07 PM
Yes, Y-DNA67 is a great start. J2b2-PH1602 (TMRCA 3400 ybp) seems to be quite diverse in the area of Croatia/Bosnia.

What exactly do you mean by diverse?

Trojet
12-17-2016, 05:32 PM
What exactly do you mean by diverse?

Including your friend, I see three predicted or confirmed PH1602 Y67 haplotypes from Croatia and Bosnia at J-M241 Project. All three of them are showing a high Genetic Distance towards each other, greater than 17/67.
In addition, there is one Y37 haplotype from Croatia who seems like is in the PH1602 subclade as well, but is not matching any of them closer than GD 7/37. I know there has been many population movements around the Balkans during various times, but high diversity (GD) of a subclade in an area, usually means likely origin (PH1602).

Pillar_of_fire
12-18-2016, 10:50 AM
My friend has informed me that he has been assigned J-PH1601 making him the only person on that branch.

Here is J-PH1602 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) for the sake of comparison.

What is his YFULL number?

Illyro-Vlach
12-18-2016, 08:28 PM
What is his YFULL number?

I think he is waiting for that.

Pillar_of_fire
12-23-2016, 09:24 AM
Hi all, yesterday came in two BIG Y results

274489 is Z1295 possitive, but negative for Z631

306834 is possitive for Y23094

Next step is YFULL analysis....

Illyro-Vlach
12-23-2016, 03:14 PM
Hi all, yesterday came in two BIG Y results

274489 is Z1295 possitive, but negative for Z631

306834 is possitive for Y23094

Next step is YFULL analysis....


Where is your father's side from originally? Or have they always been in Sofia?

Pillar_of_fire
12-27-2016, 07:40 AM
Hi all, yesterday came in two BIG Y results

274489 is Z1295 possitive, but negative for Z631

306834 is possitive for Y23094

Next step is YFULL analysis....

Just for the record - one is a friend of my husband, the other is 1st cousin of my father (the cousin's mother and my father's father are brother and sister, so they do not share the male line).

27448 is from Pazardjik, Bulgaria
306834 is ethnic Bulgarian from Trebisht, Golobardo, on the Albanian - Macedonian border.

Both are nearing their 80's.

Skerdilaidas
12-30-2016, 05:04 AM
My family are Albanians from Montenegro, Hoti tribe.



Which branch of Hoti if you don't mind me asking?

TuaMan
12-30-2016, 07:27 PM
Which branch of Hoti if you don't mind me asking?

I saw your PM a few weeks ago, it doesn't allow you to actually send PMs until you've hit 15 posts, and I've been very busy lately so I haven't had much of an opportunity to post. I'll PM back you back once I get my count up.

Skerdilaidas
12-30-2016, 08:05 PM
I saw your PM a few weeks ago, it doesn't allow you to actually send PMs until you've hit 15 posts, and I've been very busy lately so I haven't had much of an opportunity to post. I'll PM back you back once I get my count up.

Sounds good bro. I would like to list your result on our clan page though, so if you wish you can also email me at [email protected]

Dr_McNinja
01-04-2017, 11:01 PM
New clade of J-Z2432

https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

J-Y28235

Bernie1721
01-05-2017, 09:55 PM
What is his YFULL number?

YF7839

Bernie1721
01-05-2017, 10:06 PM
My family are Albanians from Montenegro, Hoti tribe.

To the two Croatian members in this thread, Illyro-Vlach and Mira, I have to say my eyes immediately lit up a bit when I read that your y-results were also J2b2, because the clan/tribe that my family comes from had a tradition of originally migrating to their-present day area from Bosnia to escape the Turks. And a little over a 100 years ago now, an English woman named Edith Durham visited the area of northern Albania and Kosovo and wrote a travelogue about her experience there called "High Albania." She noted in that work that highland Catholic and Muslim Albanians which traced their clan origins to the area of Bosnia shared the same custom of tattooing as certain Bosnian Catholic communities:

"There are certain old Roman Catholic communities in Bosnia that have preserved to this day the ancient Illyrian custom of tattooing. This is never practised by the Orthodox or Moslem Slavs, but is common among both Catholic and Moslem Albanians. It is therefore possible that these tattooed Bosnians, though now Serbophone, descend from the pre-Slavonic inhabitants, and have not yet lost the custom of putting on a distinguishing mark. It is of special interest to note that, of the present tribes in North Albania, the most tattooed are those that relate that they fled from Bosnia to avoid the Turks."

we“re three now... :beerchug:

BMG
01-21-2017, 06:30 PM
Two interesting results came in kerala christians
Kit No 547178 is L283+ Z628+ which might represent the major J2b2 group among kerala christians .Two more kits N103556 and 288991 also probably belongs to same group.

Kit No 492929 is Z575+ and M241- . Yfull has only 1 Qatari , 1 Tuscan Italian and a new yfull member in this new group .

BakodiP
01-26-2017, 08:09 PM
Two interesting results came in kerala christians
Kit No 547178 is L283+ Z628+ which might represent the major J2b2 group among kerala christians .Two more kits N103556 and 288991 also probably belongs to same group.

Kit No 492929 is Z575+ and M241- . Yfull has only 1 Qatari , 1 Tuscan Italian and a new yfull member in this new group .

I'm Z575+ M241- as well. I'm from Hungary but most probably I have ancient Armenian paternal roots as I have quite a few matches with Armenians. There are also a lot of Jewish guys who are in the same subclade.

procoptodon
02-07-2017, 02:34 AM
Hi . I had a match with a PR guy on Y-37 level. I recommended him to get a big Y done because we are different ethnicities paternally. For geneological purposes would it better if he had a Y-111 or Big Y done. Also before it was speculated that I was close the sardinian sample but I'm I closer to the sardinian sample or the Rise408. I saw on a link im in a subclade "J2b2a1a4" but the armenian sample said "J2b2a1a5" however the armenian sample and me have "Z627, {Z590}, CTS3681, Z600. +?." what marker distinguishes us apart.
I am the J-z600* on Y-full

Trojet
02-07-2017, 01:38 PM
Hi . I had a match with a PR guy on Y-37 level. I recommended him to get a big Y done because we are different ethnicities paternally. For geneological purposes would it better if he had a Y-111 or Big Y done. Also before it was speculated that I was close the sardinian sample but I'm I closer to the sardinian sample or the Rise408. I saw on a link im in a subclade "J2b2a1a4" but the armenian sample said "J2b2a1a5" however the armenian sample and me have "Z627, {Z590}, CTS3681, Z600. +?." what marker distinguishes us apart.
I am the J-z600* on Y-full

I think the most cost-effective option for your Y37 match is to upgrade to Y67 and see what the distance looks at 67 markers, as he does look like a relevant match to you, at GD 2/37 with the two differences in faster mutating markers.
The BigY is certainly an option, but since he seems very close to you, it's possible he will share all of your Novel (Private) SNPs, and would not be very accurate for a TMRCA estimate (genealogy).

Rise 408 LBA Armenia is positive for Z600 and negative for Z627, so he would not be in the same sub-branch since you are positive for Z627. https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z600/

Maximus
04-19-2017, 09:47 PM
What is about the news of J-Z1296 (and downstream subclades) haplogroup?

Trojet
05-02-2017, 11:43 AM
What is about the news of J-Z1296 (and downstream subclades) haplogroup?

I don't think there is any news in particular. However, what's interesting to me is three early sub-branches of J-Z1296 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1296/) (PH1751, Y23094, Y21878) are found in this area of Northern Albania:
http://i68.tinypic.com/6e3csl.jpg

Maximus
05-02-2017, 04:10 PM
Thanks. Please tell me more at what data are you based on saying that J-Y21878 was found in N-Albania? I know only 5 samples that belong to this clade (from Russia, Bulgaria, England, Swiss and Belgium).

Trojet
05-02-2017, 04:31 PM
Thanks. Please tell me more at what data are you based on saying that J-Y21878 was found in N-Albania? I know only 5 samples that belong to this clade (from Russia, Bulgaria, England, Swiss and Belgium).

Sure. There is an ethnic Albanian from Tuzi, Montenegro (by the border with Albania), who is tested at Geno 2.0 as Z1295+ and Z631- , which means he is most likely J-Y21878 or forming a parallel branch. Unfortunately he has not joined any FTDNA project. I got this data from a person who has access of National Geographic Geno 2 data. Additionally, there is a J2b2 cluster from Northern Albania (with DYF395S1=15,15) that I think is likely Z1295+ Z631- (J-Y21878?). None of them have tested any SNPs however.

Maximus
05-02-2017, 04:59 PM
Yes, we don't have enough of SNP-typing data. But we have amazing SNP-pack from Yseq or BigY... but these products are not available to everyone, unfortunately.

Skerdilaidas
05-02-2017, 05:18 PM
TuaMan, our Hoti resident who belongs to this cluster can confirm it :D

Maximus
05-02-2017, 05:23 PM
Which cluster?

Trojet
05-02-2017, 05:23 PM
TuaMan, our Hoti resident who belongs to this cluster can confirm it :D

Yes, for only $17.50 (plus $5 shipping): https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=45117

Sangarius
05-02-2017, 05:26 PM
I finally ordered the J2 - M172 SNP Pack last week while they had it on sale.

This reminded me also to have a look at the J2 project, hadn't checked it for a long time. Discovered that our ydna is predicted to be J2b2a1 based on 37 markers.

As far as matches are concerned, it has been a disappointing experience so far. No matches beyond 12 markers, and the 14 matches at 12 markers all have a genetic distance of 1.

I'm actually not sure what new information the SNP pack will provide me with regarding the origin and distribution of my ydna. What insights can I expect?

Trojet
05-02-2017, 05:27 PM
Which cluster?

Kit E8067 is part of the this cluster. Similar haplotype also found in Greece kit 508527: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

Maximus
05-02-2017, 06:02 PM
On what characteristics do you think that it belongs to J-Z1295? By STR markers he is Z631 as minimum. Very difficult without SNPs by predicted only.

Trojet
05-02-2017, 06:28 PM
On what characteristics do you think that it belongs to J-Z1295? By STR markers he is Z631 as minimum. Very difficult without SNPs by predicted only.

I just know ;) One day it will hopefully be confirmed.
Hint: Kit 508527 is tested to Y111. No one closer than ~GD 25/111. Furthermore, kit 274489 also looks Z631+ based on STRs, but is confirmed as Z1295(Z631-)>Y21878 through BigY as you know.
There is too much convergence downstream of Z1296.

Anyways, regardless what he is, we already have Z1295+ and Z631- in Northern Albania/Montenegro per Geno 2.0.

Maximus
05-02-2017, 06:29 PM
Do you think that Z1296 root from Balkans only? When do you think the expansion began from south to the central Europe? Or maybe the most part came with steppe migrations from west->east or east->west?

Maximus
05-02-2017, 06:33 PM
I just know One day it will hopefully be confirmed.
Hint: Kit 508527 is tested to Y111. No one closer than ~GD 25/111. Furthermore, kit 274489 also looks Z631+ based on STRs, but is confirmed as Z1295(Z631-)>Y21878 through BigY as you know.
There is too much convergence downstream of Z1296. It requires having the samples and a very careful STR analysis.

I wish you were right.

Trojet
05-02-2017, 06:52 PM
Do you think that Z1296 root from Balkans only? When do you think the expansion began from south to the central Europe? Or maybe the most part came with steppe migrations from west->east or east->west?

Considering​ the data we have so far, and based on subclade diversity, I think most likely Z1296 was already in the Balkans or very close by when it expanded. What's interesting is so far we have Z638+ and Z1296- in Italy, as well as some early splits within L283. So if anything this would put it further west.
But we'll see what ancient DNA says in the future.

Maximus
05-02-2017, 07:25 PM
But we'll see what ancient DNA says in the future.
I think considering that in ancient times J2b's also were few to find their traces in remains i think unlikely ... it's like winning the lottery.

Trojet
05-02-2017, 09:01 PM
I finally ordered the J2 - M172 SNP Pack last week while they had it on sale.

This reminded me also to have a look at the J2 project, hadn't checked it for a long time. Discovered that our ydna is predicted to be J2b2a1 based on 37 markers.

As far as matches are concerned, it has been a disappointing experience so far. No matches beyond 12 markers, and the 14 matches at 12 markers all have a genetic distance of 1.

I'm actually not sure what new information the SNP pack will provide me with regarding the origin and distribution of my ydna. What insights can I expect?

I'm a co-admin at J-M241 Project at FTDNA. I think I know which one is your kit ;) (Ends with 38).

If so, my best guess based on your STRs is that you are Z1297>>Y23094 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/). So per the SNP Pack you should test Z1297+ and Z1048- Unfortunately the FTDNA J-M172 SNP Pack doesn't test for some SNPs in between those two, hence the reason I suggest the J2b-M12 Panel from YSEQ (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45234). But if you test Z1297+ and Z1048- my prediction of terminal SNP Y23094 will basically be confirmed, as you have DYS607=13 which so far seems characteristic for J-Y23094.

Trojet
05-03-2017, 03:20 PM
I made this map of currently known J-L283+ and Z585- or basal L283 samples. As we can see, they appear to be spread throughout Europe, with no such samples outside of Europe. Was J-L283 somewhere in Europe when it expanded ~6000 ybp (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/)? Hard to say at this point, but phylogenetic evidence so far suggests so. The consensus is that it would have eventually migrated from the Near East, due to its brother branch J-Z2432 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/) having a presence mainly in South Asia, and the oldest J2b-M12 aDNA being found in Western Iran from the Early Neolithic. It also remains to be seen what migration would have brought it to Europe (Neolithic, Bronze Age).

http://i68.tinypic.com/2qvqhas.jpg

Sources: YFull, FTDNA, and The National Geographic Society’s Genographic Project (Thanks to user Rafc).

Illyro-Vlach
05-10-2017, 07:23 PM
Good stuff today thanks to Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616).


Location - Veliki Vanik (Vrgorac, Croatia in the Dalmatian Highlands bordering Hercegovina).
Date - 1700-1500 BC
Y- Haplogroup - J2B2a
Derived SNPs - J2b2a:L283:6932663C->G; J2b:L282:5359116C->T; J2b:M314:22753079A->C; J:CTS687:6953311A->T; J:CTS852:7048870G->A; J:CTS4204:15476324G->A; J:CTS4349:15602183G->A; J:CTS5280:16180103A->G; J:CTS5628:16401405C->G; J:CTS5678:16427564A->T; J:CTS7229:17367321C->A; J:CTS7832:17693210A->G; J:CTS9877:19117262A->G; J:CTS10446:19460042G->C; J:CTS11291:23058442G->T; J:CTS11571:23163701C->A; J:CTS11750:23250894C->T; J:CTS11765:23255729A->T; J:CTS12047:23443976A->G; J:F1167:8393499G->A; J:F1181:8418927G->C; J:F1633:9872486C->T; J:F1634:9872488T->C; J:F1744:14264859G->A; J:F1826:14705645G->A; J:F2114:16262942G->A; J:F2502:17495914G->A; J:F2839:18773505C->T; J:F2973:19194316C->T; J:F3119:21097847C->T; J:F3138:21148350G->A; J:F3176:21329083T->C; J:F4299:21144431T->A; J:F4300:21144433T->A; J:FGC1599:21923739A->T; J:FGC1604:10038100G->A; J:FGC3271:10038717G->A; J:PF4513:7759610C->T; J:PF4519:8669451C->G; J:PF4521:9815201T->C; J:PF4524:10009851G->Ahet; J:PF4530:13597365C->T; J:PF4567:17605948A->C; J:PF4591:21281892C->A; J:PF4595:21858778C->A; J:PF4598:22118776A->G; J:PF4619:23251880A->C; J:S22619:21144432C->A; J:YSC0000228:22172960G->T

This is highland warrior/pastoralist country, stuck up high in the Dinaric Alps.

https://s6.postimg.org/61968fcn5/veliki_vanik_map.png

https://s6.postimg.org/wkx5wtnsx/veliki_vanik.png

Now, how do I interpret those SNP calls?

Trojet
05-10-2017, 07:27 PM
Good stuff today thanks to Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616).


Location - Veliki Vanik (Vrgorac, Croatia in the Dalmatian Highlands bordering Hercegovina).
Date - 1700-1500 BC
Y- Haplogroup - J2B2a
Derived SNPs - J2b2a:L283:6932663C->G; J2b:L282:5359116C->T; J2b:M314:22753079A->C; J:CTS687:6953311A->T; J:CTS852:7048870G->A; J:CTS4204:15476324G->A; J:CTS4349:15602183G->A; J:CTS5280:16180103A->G; J:CTS5628:16401405C->G; J:CTS5678:16427564A->T; J:CTS7229:17367321C->A; J:CTS7832:17693210A->G; J:CTS9877:19117262A->G; J:CTS10446:19460042G->C; J:CTS11291:23058442G->T; J:CTS11571:23163701C->A; J:CTS11750:23250894C->T; J:CTS11765:23255729A->T; J:CTS12047:23443976A->G; J:F1167:8393499G->A; J:F1181:8418927G->C; J:F1633:9872486C->T; J:F1634:9872488T->C; J:F1744:14264859G->A; J:F1826:14705645G->A; J:F2114:16262942G->A; J:F2502:17495914G->A; J:F2839:18773505C->T; J:F2973:19194316C->T; J:F3119:21097847C->T; J:F3138:21148350G->A; J:F3176:21329083T->C; J:F4299:21144431T->A; J:F4300:21144433T->A; J:FGC1599:21923739A->T; J:FGC1604:10038100G->A; J:FGC3271:10038717G->A; J:PF4513:7759610C->T; J:PF4519:8669451C->G; J:PF4521:9815201T->C; J:PF4524:10009851G->Ahet; J:PF4530:13597365C->T; J:PF4567:17605948A->C; J:PF4591:21281892C->A; J:PF4595:21858778C->A; J:PF4598:22118776A->G; J:PF4619:23251880A->C; J:S22619:21144432C->A; J:YSC0000228:22172960G->T

This is highland warrior/pastoralist country, stuck up high in the Dinaric Alps.

https://s6.postimg.org/wkx5wtnsx/veliki_vanik.png

Now, how do I interpret those SNP calls?

What the paper tells us is that his most recently tested SNP is J2b2a1-L283+. It will be interesting to see where he belongs downstream when we get the raw data.

In any case, it appears we are Illyrians, as this sample comes from 1500-1700 BC and from southern Croatia ;)

Illyro-Vlach
05-10-2017, 07:49 PM
What the paper tells us is that his most recently tested SNP is J2b2a1-L283+. It will be interesting to see where he belongs downstream when we get the raw data.

In any case, it appears we are Illyrians, as this sample comes from 1500-1700 BC and from southern Croatia ;)

This is right up there in the Dinaric Alps and this area is dotted with old Illyrian gradina formations which are generally circular hilltop defensive positions.

Maximus
05-10-2017, 07:50 PM
It will be interesting to see where he belongs downstream when we get the raw data.
raw data not published

Maximus
05-10-2017, 08:06 PM
I think we dont know any downstream snps becuase authors use isogg J2b-tree nomenclature.. it is frozen in the past :(

• • J2b~ FGC3945.1/Z526.1, L729.3/M2087.3/Z15.3/Z548.3
• • • J2b1 M205
• • • J2b2 M241
• • • • J2b2a L283
• • • • • J2b2a1 Z1296
• • • • • • J2b2a1a Z1297, Z1298
• • • • • • • J2b2a1a1 Z631, Z639
• • • • J2b2b~ DYS455≤9

Trojet
05-10-2017, 08:41 PM
raw data not published


I think we dont know any downstream snps becuase authors use isogg J2b-tree nomenclature.. it is frozen in the past :(

• • J2b~ FGC3945.1/Z526.1, L729.3/M2087.3/Z15.3/Z548.3
• • • J2b1 M205
• • • J2b2 M241
• • • • J2b2a L283
• • • • • J2b2a1 Z1296
• • • • • • J2b2a1a Z1297, Z1298
• • • • • • • J2b2a1a1 Z631, Z639
• • • • J2b2b~ DYS455≤9

They should eventually release the raw data, they usually do. It's possible they used the nomenclature you posted and he tested L283+ and Z1296- hence the reason they didn't report anything downstream of L283. Currently, in Croatia J-Y15058>PH1602 seems to be pretty diverse, though I wouldn't​ rule out he belongs to its the brother clade J-Z638, or even some basal L283 :D
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Maximus
05-10-2017, 08:45 PM
L283+ and Z1296-
it is possible but it can also be assumed that Z1296 is no call

Maximus
05-10-2017, 09:58 PM
They should eventually release the raw data, they usually do
we will hope because that this article published only as pre print version

Sangarius
05-15-2017, 07:43 PM
I'm a co-admin at J-M241 Project at FTDNA. I think I know which one is your kit ;) (Ends with 38).

If so, my best guess based on your STRs is that you are Z1297>>Y23094 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094/). So per the SNP Pack you should test Z1297+ and Z1048- Unfortunately the FTDNA J-M172 SNP Pack doesn't test for some SNPs in between those two, hence the reason I suggest the J2b-M12 Panel from YSEQ (https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=27&products_id=45234). But if you test Z1297+ and Z1048- my prediction of terminal SNP Y23094 will basically be confirmed, as you have DYS607=13 which so far seems characteristic for J-Y23094.

My grandfathers results came in; you were right, he is positive for Z1297 and negative for Z1048. That quite probably means, that we are positive for Y23094?

Trojet
05-15-2017, 08:30 PM
My grandfathers results came in; you were right, he is positive for Z1297 and negative for Z1048. That quite probably means, that we are positive for Y23094?

Of course I was right ;)
And yes, now 100% confident this kit is under J-Z1297>>Y23094. I have grouped this kit accordingly. TMRCA of J-Y23094 is ~3400 ybp and it seems to be most diverse in the Balkans.

trdbr1234
05-18-2017, 02:11 AM
306834 is ethnic Bulgarian from Trebisht, Golobardo, on the Albanian - Macedonian border.
I know this is old...
I just want to clarify that Golloborda is not ethnically Bulgarian. The region is 80 percent Muslim and 20 percent Orthodox (at least from a historical context). Trebisht is a large mixed village. I myself come hail from one of the Orthodox villages close neighboring Trebisht. The region does speak a Slavic dialect as a first or second language. We do not however identify as Macedonian or Bulgarian and never have. Our history is closely linked to the rest of Dibra. This is in fact is our primary identification-Dibran. We are similar in nature to Mijaks and Torbesh in Macedonia. We acquired our slavic toungue in the 18'th-20'th centure during the collaboration of our neighbors with Turkey and their imposement of Bulgarian in the regions churches. The Muslims acquired it in the same way given that the entire region are late converts to Islam(1850's and later). Anyways, there are tens of of thousand of us in Albania and we firmly resound any notion other than Albanian, as we have shown by refusing Bulgarian passport as well as Macedonian.

Trojet
05-18-2017, 12:46 PM
306834 is ethnic Bulgarian from Trebisht, Golobardo, on the Albanian - Macedonian border


I know this is old...
I just want to clarify that Golloborda is not ethnically Bulgarian. The region is 80 percent Muslim and 20 percent Orthodox (at least from a historical context). Trebisht is a large mixed village. I myself come hail from one of the Orthodox villages close neighboring Trebisht. The region does speak a Slavic dialect as a first or second language. We do not however identify as Macedonian or Bulgarian and never have. Our history is closely linked to the rest of Dibra. This is in fact is our primary identification-Dibran. We are similar in nature to Mijaks and Torbesh in Macedonia. We acquired our slavic toungue in the 18'th-20'th centure during the collaboration of our neighbors with Turkey and their imposement of Bulgarian in the regions churches. The Muslims acquired it in the same way given that the entire region are late converts to Islam(1850's and later). Anyways, there are tens of of thousand of us in Albania and we firmly resound any notion other than Albanian, as we have shown by refusing Bulgarian passport as well as Macedonian.

What's also interesting is that kit 306834 is matching/clustering with Albanians under J2b2-Y23094.

trdbr1234
05-18-2017, 03:53 PM
What's also interesting is that kit 306834 is matching/clustering with Albanians under J2b2-Y23094.

I'll eventually get around to taking one as well. What affordable test do you recommend?

Trojet
05-18-2017, 04:09 PM
I'll eventually get around to taking one as well. What affordable test do you recommend?

It would be nice, as there is not may people tested from the Dibra area.
IMO, the YSEQ Alpha-Beta (Y37) is the best bang for the buck when it comes to Y-DNA for $85. You may order from here: https://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=23&products_id=34&osCsid=d57300f892767f91c0b1257a85953c2a

If you order through YSEQ, you should join the YSEQ "Group #109 Albanian Bloodlines" for results analysis. Or let me know when you get the results.

Pillar_of_fire
05-18-2017, 04:27 PM
I know this is old...
I just want to clarify that Golloborda is not ethnically Bulgarian. The region is 80 percent Muslim and 20 percent Orthodox (at least from a historical context). Trebisht is a large mixed village. I myself come hail from one of the Orthodox villages close neighboring Trebisht. The region does speak a Slavic dialect as a first or second language. We do not however identify as Macedonian or Bulgarian and never have. Our history is closely linked to the rest of Dibra. This is in fact is our primary identification-Dibran. We are similar in nature to Mijaks and Torbesh in Macedonia. We acquired our slavic toungue in the 18'th-20'th centure during the collaboration of our neighbors with Turkey and their imposement of Bulgarian in the regions churches. The Muslims acquired it in the same way given that the entire region are late converts to Islam(1850's and later). Anyways, there are tens of of thousand of us in Albania and we firmly resound any notion other than Albanian, as we have shown by refusing Bulgarian passport as well as Macedonian.

The person aged 77+, he is Muslim and Bulgarian. There is nothing wrong in this. His mother's language is Bulgarian, his mother never spoke Albanian, his children speak Bulgarian. He speaks a very melodic old fashioned Bulgarian, before the Bulgarian language reform in 1940s.

Pillar_of_fire
05-18-2017, 04:34 PM
What's also interesting is that kit 306834 is matching/clustering with Albanians under J2b2-Y23094.

At YFULL he clusters with Bulgarian from Plovdiv

Trojet
05-18-2017, 04:42 PM
At YFULL he clusters with Bulgarian from Plovdiv

TMRCA between YF08113 (Bulgarian from Albania) and ERR1025614 (Bulgarian from Plovdiv) is 3400 years as you can see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094*/

A Bronze Age split (3400 ybp) is too great to call it a cluster, IMO.

On the other hand, kit 306834/YF08113 is matching 33/37 an Albanian from North Albania, and clustering with others. Furthermore, 306834/YF08113 shares 22 out of his 26 Private SNPs with EB-35147 Alban2 from Tirana, Albania, which is from a scientific study, Estonian BioCentre. I hope YFull will be able to upload EB-35147 Alban2 (http://evolbio.ut.ee) on their tree some day so you can see for yourself: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a1a1a1a3

Pillar_of_fire
05-18-2017, 04:44 PM
TMRCA between YF08113 (Bulgarian from Albania) and ERR1025614 (Bulgarian from Plovdiv) is 3400 years as you can see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y23094*/

A Bronze Age split (3400 ybp) is too great to call it a cluster, IMO.

On the other hand, kit 306834/YF08113 is matching 33/37 an Albanian from North Albania. Furthermore, 306834/YF08113 shares 22 out of his 26 Private SNPs with Alban2 from Tirana, Albania, which is from an anonymous study. I hope YFull will be able to upload this sample on their tree some day so you can see for yourself.

Great

trdbr1234
05-18-2017, 05:18 PM
The person aged 77+, he is Muslim and Bulgarian. There is nothing wrong in this. His mother's language is Bulgarian, his mother never spoke Albanian, his children speak Bulgarian. He speaks a very melodic old fashioned Bulgarian, before the Bulgarian language reform in 1940s.
People can choose to become what they want. It's their choice! If that's the choice he has made he's allowed to make it. However from a historical perspective, it is not correct. Both my grandmothers also spoke "Bulgarian", however they were also knowledgeable in Albanian, which is the general norm i Golloborda. My grandfathers however used Albanian as a primary language and were fluent in Bulgarian as well, which again is the norm. The men obviously engaged in work outside of the area while the women had more pressure from the church. In any case, our oral traditions, our customs, our folk costumes, cuisine, beliefs and identity has always been with Dibra. Our flag we used in weddings and events has always been Skenderbeu's flag. Our songs and epics have always been about Dibra and Albania. Even our identity has been Albanian. All one has to do is ask their grandparents if they are still alive, as I have.

I assume that individual took the citizenship Bulgaria is offering. I can say that my family, which is quite large and mostly Orthodox, overwhelmingly make a conscious decision to reject those Bulgarian passports they offer. We even have our own country working against us on this in their need to show that "Albania treats minorities well". No-one stops to ask us what we want or think. We're not Bulgarian! Were Albanian! They need to stop taking advantage of poor people in the region. We have nothing but respect for Bulgaria but this kind of propaganda needs to stop.

Maximus
05-18-2017, 06:39 PM
what do you think about high freqs of J2b2 in Szeklers and Csango peoples?

Trojet
05-18-2017, 06:59 PM
what do you think about high freqs of J2b2 in Szeklers and Csango peoples?

I think it's hard to say without deep SNP testing, as J2b2 now has a proven presence in SouthEast Europe since at least the Bronze Age.

I have noticed though that in Central Europe area, it seems to mostly be under J-Z631>Z1043.

Polska
05-18-2017, 08:46 PM
Many thanks to the volunteers who have donated their time to Haplogroup J2 and Haplogroup J2b2/J2b1 research. I tested back in 2008 and it's nice to log in to FTDNA and Anthrogenica and see the progress that has occurred over the years.

I just signed up for the Big Y. My batch should be ready by mid July. Kit number N60270. My paternal line is Polish and settled in Chicago about 110 years ago; We've spread throughout the United States since then. They were from a small village in Southern Poland in the Beskid Mountains called Slopnice (Limanowa Province) prior to emigrating to America. My grandfather has the family tree going back to the early 1600s via church records from the local Parish. Haplogroup J2b2a with one close match (62 out of 67 markers) with an individual named Lubomirski who belongs to the Lubomirski line in Poland. I'm very curious about where this J2b2 line may have come from and hopefully the Big Y test will narrow things down a bit. My understanding is that we MIGHT belong to PH-1601.

Looking forward to July!

Trojet
05-18-2017, 08:53 PM
Many thanks to the volunteers who have donated their time to Haplogroup J2 and Haplogroup J2b2/J2b1 research. I tested back in 2008 and it's nice to log in to FTDNA and Anthrogenica and see the progress that has occurred over the years.

I just signed up for the Big Y. My batch should be ready by mid July. Kit number N60270. My paternal line is Polish and settled in Chicago about 110 years ago; We've spread throughout the United States since then. They were from a small village in Southern Poland in the Beskid Mountains called Slopnice (Limanowa Province) prior to emigrating to America. My grandfather has the family tree going back to the early 1600s via church records from the local Parish. Haplogroup J2b2a with one close match (62 out of 67 markers) with an individual named Lubomirski who belongs to the Lubomirski line in Poland. I'm very curious about where this J2b2 line may have come from and hopefully the Big Y test will narrow things down a bit. My understanding is that we MIGHT belong to PH-1601.

Looking forward to July!

Yes, I think your kit will be under J2b2-CTS3617>>PH1601 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) ;)

Polska
05-18-2017, 09:30 PM
Yes, I think your kit will be under J2b2-CTS3617>>PH1601 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-PH1602/) ;)

Thanks again for your good work. So I see another American, a Bosnian, a Bulgarian, and a German on that branch. Looking at this thread, I think I read about a Croatian in Germany who might have belonged to PH-1601 as well. Is he the German on the branch? My understanding from looking at the tree you provided is that this PH-1601 branch is 3700 old and the TMRCA is 3300 years ago. So this looks like an older branch relative to some of the other J2b2a branches?

Trojet
05-18-2017, 10:08 PM
Thanks again for your good work. So I see another American, a Bosnian, a Bulgarian, and a German on that branch. Looking at this thread, I think I read about a Croatian in Germany who might have belonged to PH-1601 as well. Is he the German on the branch? My understanding from looking at the tree you provided is that this PH-1601 branch is 3700 old and the TMRCA is 3300 years ago. So this looks like an older branch relative to some of the other J2b2a branches?

Yes, this is one of the J2b2-L283 sub-branches that seems to have great deal of diversity around the Balkans based on confirmed/predicted kits from J-M241 Project (Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece), although it seems to be more common around Dalmatia.

Bernie1721
05-19-2017, 02:37 PM
...Looking at this thread, I think I read about a Croatian in Germany who might have belonged to PH-1601 as well. Is he the German on the branch? ...

That“s me, a croatian, living in Germany but from an area which nowadays is Bosnia and Herzegowina. B)

The "german" on the YFULL branch is a US-citizen with german ancestors.

Have you uploaded your data to gedmatch.com already?

You“ve mentioned church records of your ancestors.
They are from south of Poland as you said.

I have some ancestors originating from Lviv/Sombir area,
which is about 200km away from your family“s area.

Would you be so kind and take a look if you have Radas/Radass/Radash surname in your data?

Maximus
05-19-2017, 04:21 PM
I think it's hard to say without deep SNP testing, as J2b2 now has a proven presence in SouthEast Europe since at least the Bronze Age.

I have noticed though that in Central Europe area, it seems to mostly be under J-Z631>Z1043.

I think we will not soon find out .. the scientific samples do not have a deep SNP typing

ps up to J-Z631 i think

Polska
05-19-2017, 05:27 PM
That“s me, a croatian, living in Germany but from an area which nowadays is Bosnia and Herzegowina. B)

The "german" on the YFULL branch is a US-citizen with german ancestors.

Have you uploaded your data to gedmatch.com already?

You“ve mentioned church records of your ancestors.
They are from south of Poland as you said.

I have some ancestors originating from Lviv/Sombir area,
which is about 200km away from your family“s area.

Would you be so kind and take a look if you have Radas/Radass/Radash surname in your data?

My paternal line is from an area not too far from Zakopane, Poland...not too far from Slovakia.

I did upload my results to Gedmatch and don't recall the last name you've mentioned, but I'll check for you.

slamberty
05-23-2017, 01:11 PM
I thought that this was interesting, apparently the first ancient J2b2 sample recovered in Europe was recently discovered in southern Croatia, refer to the article The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe, sorry this site will not let me post links.

slamberty
05-23-2017, 01:25 PM
Also, I am ultimately regretting the decision to try out GPSorigins for DNA test results out, probably one of my worst decisions ever. I uploaded my raw DNA data from 23andMe just to see what my results my be like after reading what seemed like overall generally favorable reviews for them, ultimately trying to see if I could get some sort of an answer as to what my ancestral path may have been for my paternal lineage. And ultimately it was a let down even if I did have low expectations. I guess I shouldn't be surprised ultimately given what I paid and how quickly my results were interpreted and published, but it seems like I was one of the customers who had a negative experience with them. For one thing, haplogroup H I know has been in Europe for some time to say the least, and my maternal lineage, H16 has more than likely been in northern/central Europe for some time as well, seeing as it has been found in samples from the Neolithic Rössen culture. Also, another example, my paternal grandmothers' ancestry originates from Ireland and the UK and I've seen her pedigree as was determined by a friend of hers, and based on the results ultimately very unlikely to say the least that her ancestry would have arrived from Bulgaria following 224 A.D. as was determined by the test. But all in all I feel ripped off and based on my results, I am ultimately taking them with a pinch of salt if that, again too generic/vague and too many inconsistencies as well, just wanted to give others a fair warning before they decide to test with GPSorigins so that others don't ultimately fall into the same trap that I did, 23andMe at least seems to be more reliable. But that may be subjective as well, others may have better luck, at least individuals with less mixed ancestry than mine, relatively speaking.
16239

slamberty
05-23-2017, 01:45 PM
But ultimately, the best conclusion that I can reach regarding my paternal lineage is that it is ultimately Indo-European in origin in any event and most likely affiliated with either the Celts or the Romans, again going by the history and demographics of the region that my paternal lineage originates from. I just figured there was a better chance for either one, especially the Celts seeing as the origin of my paternal lineage is located outside of the J2b2 hotspots in Western Germany and the Low Countries in a more rural setting. But in any event going by the old saying, if the shoe fits wear it.

TuaMan
06-02-2017, 02:55 AM
I made this map of currently known J-L283+ and Z585- or basal L283 samples. As we can see, they appear to be spread throughout Europe, with no such samples outside of Europe. Was J-L283 somewhere in Europe when it expanded~6000 ybp? Hard to say at this point, but phylogenetic evidence so far suggests so. The consensus is that it would have eventually migrated from the Near East, due to its brother branch having a presence mainly in South Asia, and the oldest J2b-M12 aDNA being found in Western Iran from the Early Neolithic. It also remains to be seen what migration would have brought it to Europe (Neolithic, Bronze Age).


This map is really interesting, and I think pretty counter-intuitive given all the basal L283 in Western Europe but only two reported in the Balkans, you would think that the distribution would be reversed given that this lineage obviously came from the Near East, as you said. I originally thought that it would have come to the Balkans directly overland from northwest Anatolia, but I'm wondering if maybe it could have been more complicated than that? I know Cyprus, the Aegean Islands, Crete, Sicily, and Southern Italy are loaded with J2a, but I'm not sure how common J2b is in those regions. I wonder if maybe J2b could have also taken part in the colonization of the insular Mediterranean with J2a, and upon reaching peninsular Italy, hopped over the Adriatic to the western Balkans, where it would have gone through some founder effects? Meanwhile the older branches worked their way up the peninsula into Western Europe, or were spread around there later with the advent of the Roman Empire.

EDIT: For some annoying reason it wouldn't let me direct quote the original message with the map and the accompanying links, for anyone interested see Trojet's original post #359 on page 36.

Skerdilaidas
06-11-2017, 05:37 PM
The person aged 77+, he is Muslim and Bulgarian. There is nothing wrong in this. His mother's language is Bulgarian, his mother never spoke Albanian, his children speak Bulgarian. He speaks a very melodic old fashioned Bulgarian, before the Bulgarian language reform in 1940s.

I find it odd that he has listed Bulgaria the country where he is from at YFull, very misleading to say the least. Unless of course he thinks Trebishte is in Bulgaria? Historically people from there, even though they speak the language and a minority tend to identify today as Bulgarians, a recent fenomenon actually, have no recollection of migration from Bulgaria to Albania - now even confirmed by his matches.

He can identify as he wishes, doesn't bother me one bit, but should list the proper country where he hails from for the sake of research.

Maximus
06-25-2017, 02:17 PM
Trojet,
what do you think about abazin (Caucasus) sample (306877) definig as J-PH1751 ("italo-albanian")? What is the links between them?

Trojet
06-25-2017, 02:55 PM
Trojet,
what do you think about abazin (Caucasus) sample (306877) definig as J-PH1751 ("italo-albanian")? What is the links between them?

Good question.
We have contacted him multiple times to see what he knows regarding his origin. But no answer. From what I have gathered, he appears to be Circassian from Turkey.
He is indeed matching/clustering many Albanians, as can be seen here: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

On top of it he is confirmed J-PH1751 and shares all SNPs on that line with an Albanian, and Italian from Palermo who told me has a tradition of being Arbėresh (Albanian). So regarding 306877, I suspect some connection during Ottoman times from Albania or near by.

Furthermore, recently we got an Albanian BigY result who is negative for some SNPs defining J-PH1751 subclade. So this subclade looks Albanian.

Maximus
06-25-2017, 03:15 PM
I asked group admin about his origin, but previously I seen that he is from Adygea republic, RU.

Trojet
06-25-2017, 04:07 PM
I asked group admin about his origin, but previously I seen that he is from Adygea republic, RU.

I'm really not sure. His silence doesn't help either. He states he is Abazin on his paternal information, but has listed no country of origin.
My guess him being Circassian from Turkey is based on some public profile connected to his name.

Maximus
06-27-2017, 10:08 AM
So,

this is the Turkish Circassian... but his most distant ancestor from the Circassia of the 19th century, now the Adygea and the Krasnodar region of the Russian Federation.

Trojet
06-27-2017, 11:19 AM
So,

this is the Turkish Circassian... but his most distant ancestor from the Circassia of the 19th century, now the Adygea and the Krasnodar region of the Russian Federation.

Yeah, as I figured ;)

He really has an interesting Y-result. Basically an 'Albanian' haplotype. His haplotype is very common in northern Albania and Kosovo. Not sure what the deal is.
For what's worth, his FF myOrigins is 55% Asia Minor, and 37% European of which 23% SouthEast Europe.

trdbr1234
07-14-2017, 07:50 PM
Yeah, as I figured ;)

He really has an interesting Y-result. Basically an 'Albanian' haplotype. His haplotype is very common in northern Albania and Kosovo. Not sure what the deal is.
For what's worth, his FF myOrigins is 55% Asia Minor, and 37% European of which 23% SouthEast Europe.

Trojet, have you had a chance to look at Serbs from Kosova? Specifically, the ones from the Serbian enclaves that are not from northern Mitrovica? Also, have you found any genetic evidence of movement of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina? How similar are Herzegovinians and the adjacent Dalmatian coast, to Montenegrins and/or Albanians?

Trojet
07-16-2017, 03:13 AM
Trojet, have you had a chance to look at Serbs from Kosova? Specifically, the ones from the Serbian enclaves that are not from northern Mitrovica? Also, have you found any genetic evidence of movement of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina? How similar are Herzegovinians and the adjacent Dalmatian coast, to Montenegrins and/or Albanians?

I haven't seen many Serbian samples from Kosove, so can't say much in regards to that.
As far as Albanian tribes who have a legend of migrating from "Herzegovina", we haven't found genetic evidence of that yet. Obviously, this doesn't mean that it didn't happen. A couple of such tribes are turning out as J2b2-L283, which is one of the main Albanian Y-haplogroups.
In terms of Y-DNA, the Bosniaks from Sandzak and then Montenegrins are closest to Albanians. I don't see much similarity with populations from Herzegovina and Dalmatia.

Skerdilaidas
07-16-2017, 06:04 PM
Trojet, have you had a chance to look at Serbs from Kosova? Specifically, the ones from the Serbian enclaves that are not from northern Mitrovica? Also, have you found any genetic evidence of movement of Albanian tribes from Herzegovina? How similar are Herzegovinians and the adjacent Dalmatian coast, to Montenegrins and/or Albanians?

Enclaves or not Serbs from Kosova just like Albanians are with origins from all over, impossible for one to find a stable settlement that goes all they way back to middle ages. Majority have origins from Serbia and Montenegro (colonists or not). Therefore they are not that different from the abovementioned regions genetically.

trdbr1234
07-16-2017, 11:31 PM
Enclaves or not Serbs from Kosova just like Albanians are with origins from all over, impossible for one to find a stable settlement that goes all they way back to middle ages. Majority have origins from Serbia and Montenegro (colonists or not). Therefore they are not that different from the abovementioned regions genetically.

Before Northern Albanians became Catholic, they were Orthodox. I imagine not every tribe converted to Catholicism. It is possible that many of those Serbs in Kosova are assimilated Albanians. I've seen some pictures(can't find them now) with Serbs from Kosova wearing a plis. Maybe they came from other regions of Serbia and/or Montenegro but I imagine a big chunk of them did not come from these regions and are assimilated locals. This is what I'm thinking and since we have data from Sandzak, I would think we would have some samples from Kosovan Serbs.

nuplix
07-17-2017, 12:43 AM
My first 4 matches on GEDmatch are J2b2

Skerdilaidas
07-17-2017, 03:11 PM
Before Northern Albanians became Catholic, they were Orthodox. I imagine not every tribe converted to Catholicism. It is possible that many of those Serbs in Kosova are assimilated Albanians. I've seen some pictures(can't find them now) with Serbs from Kosova wearing a plis. Maybe they came from other regions of Serbia and/or Montenegro but I imagine a big chunk of them did not come from these regions and are assimilated locals. This is what I'm thinking and since we have data from Sandzak, I would think we would have some samples from Kosovan Serbs.

Not really but that's another topic on its own.
Can't say what the situation is without them testing. I looked at their site and only saw about dozen of them: Saw few CTS10228 (PH908+, S17250+) from Leposavic and Gjilan; two R1b-BY611 and V13-L241.

BY611 and L241 are definitely within our clusters but most likely they are Serbs with origins from Montenegro.

Maximus
08-18-2017, 08:25 PM
Good stuff today thanks to Genomic History of Southeastern Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616).


Location - Veliki Vanik (Vrgorac, Croatia in the Dalmatian Highlands bordering Hercegovina).
Date - 1700-1500 BC
Y- Haplogroup - J2B2a
Derived SNPs - J2b2a:L283:6932663C->G; J2b:L282:5359116C->T; J2b:M314:22753079A->C; J:CTS687:6953311A->T; J:CTS852:7048870G->A; J:CTS4204:15476324G->A; J:CTS4349:15602183G->A; J:CTS5280:16180103A->G; J:CTS5628:16401405C->G; J:CTS5678:16427564A->T; J:CTS7229:17367321C->A; J:CTS7832:17693210A->G; J:CTS9877:19117262A->G; J:CTS10446:19460042G->C; J:CTS11291:23058442G->T; J:CTS11571:23163701C->A; J:CTS11750:23250894C->T; J:CTS11765:23255729A->T; J:CTS12047:23443976A->G; J:F1167:8393499G->A; J:F1181:8418927G->C; J:F1633:9872486C->T; J:F1634:9872488T->C; J:F1744:14264859G->A; J:F1826:14705645G->A; J:F2114:16262942G->A; J:F2502:17495914G->A; J:F2839:18773505C->T; J:F2973:19194316C->T; J:F3119:21097847C->T; J:F3138:21148350G->A; J:F3176:21329083T->C; J:F4299:21144431T->A; J:F4300:21144433T->A; J:FGC1599:21923739A->T; J:FGC1604:10038100G->A; J:FGC3271:10038717G->A; J:PF4513:7759610C->T; J:PF4519:8669451C->G; J:PF4521:9815201T->C; J:PF4524:10009851G->Ahet; J:PF4530:13597365C->T; J:PF4567:17605948A->C; J:PF4591:21281892C->A; J:PF4595:21858778C->A; J:PF4598:22118776A->G; J:PF4619:23251880A->C; J:S22619:21144432C->A; J:YSC0000228:22172960G->T

This is highland warrior/pastoralist country, stuck up high in the Dinaric Alps.

https://s6.postimg.org/61968fcn5/veliki_vanik_map.png

https://s6.postimg.org/wkx5wtnsx/veliki_vanik.png

Now, how do I interpret those SNP calls?

so, return to this issue... what we know today about what archaeological culture was parental for these "steppe people" (who invasion) to find the remains for analysis?

Trojet
08-19-2017, 05:18 PM
I think if J2b2a-L283 did come from the Steppe area, Maykop culture (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture) would be a good candidate. There is a few interesting things that support this:


The Bronze Age Croatia J-L283 sample did carry some Steppe ancestry, along with a Steppe mtDNA.
The next oldest ancient J-L283 sample comes from LBA Armenia, which was an early split of J-L283.
The expansion of J-L283 starting ca. 5900 ybp coincides with the Maykop culture.
There is a theory that Maykop's origin is in the Iranian plateau, where the oldest J2b-M102* has been found, dated ca. 8000 BC.

Additionally, there is an Armenian from Georgia at J-M241 project that's tested L283+ and Z1296- His STRs suggest he is also negative for J-Y15058. So he is most definitely upstream of J-Z2507 and could belong to the same paragroup found in Lebanon or splits J-Z597 subclade, which has a TMRCA/expansion of ca. 4400 ybp. Under this scenario, the expansion would've happened ca. 2500 BC, and J-Z2507 (which is the main J-L283 sub-branch) would've already been in the western Balkans or the Adriatic area when it expanded.
https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

However, as I pointed out in one of my previous posts (www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1244-J2b2-(J-M241)/page36&p=231323#post231323), early splits within J-L283, TMRCA 5900 ybp, are overwhelmingly European, and J-L283 is virtually non-existent in today's area of Maykop culture or anywhere outside Europe. Unless this group made a sudden BA expansion to the Western Balkans/Adriatic area, and left virtually no traces in the original homeland, which is possible considering this would've happened in the Bronze Age.

Maximus
08-19-2017, 09:06 PM
I think have roots in Yamna culture. Maykop peoples have mainly G2, I think.

Maximus
08-20-2017, 08:31 PM
I think that this part of the theory is mistaken...

// As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago.//
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b2a1

"Volga region" cluster J-Y12000 have young age (about 1550 ybp) and this branch up to 14 steps down from J-L283 and is an "leaf" but not the root. This branch in no way can be a parent for other "european" branches or the middle point on the way from Iran to the Balkans.

Trojet
08-20-2017, 08:43 PM
I think that this part of the theory is mistaken...

// As a minor lineage within the R1a-Z93 dominant populations, it would have expanded from the Volga-Ural region to Central and South Asia with the Indo-Aryan invasions approximately from 4,300 to 3,500 years ago.//
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b2a1

"Volga region" cluster J-Y12000 have young age (about 1550 ybp) and this branch up to 14 steps down from J-L283 and is an "leaf" but not the root. This branch in no way can be a parent for other "european" branches or the middle point on the way from Iran to the Balkans.

I'm not surprised by it since that comes from Eupedia's owner, Maciamo :biggrin1:
I have tried to explain it to him many times that the J-L283 in Volga region is not an evidence that it expanded from there. In fact, the Volga region J-L283 seems to be of Central European or North Balkan origin. As you pointed out belonging to J-Y12000 with a young TMRCA. He finally took a note of it recently, and said "this is problematic".

Maximus
08-20-2017, 09:20 PM
Many years ago I calculated with use the 17-marker haplotypes (still not published data yet) of age for several dozen haplotypes of Moksha people. And I got an age equal to about 900 a maximum of 1000 years before present. This cluster now in J-Y12936 and downstream (tmrca 900 ybp). Moksha now have maximal freq of J2b - more than 20%.

olive picker
09-13-2017, 10:02 AM
Where in India does J2b2 peak? Among what population?

Trojet
09-22-2017, 06:34 PM
Recently we got an interesting BigY result for J2b2a1-L283.
A sample from England splits the J-Z597 subclade. Positive for Z615, and negative for Z597, Z628, Z584.

Current YFull tree:

http://img.pixady.com/2017/09/814268_img20170922132610.jpg

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

Maximus
09-23-2017, 05:07 PM
In the new version of the YTree will be the separated of J-Z8425 and J-Z8424 levels.

Trojet
09-25-2017, 02:25 PM
In the new version of the YTree will be the separated of J-Z8425 and J-Z8424 levels.

Is this YF10330 who defines this split? If so, according to FTDNA's J2 SNP Pack, he is tested Z8425+ but his BigY does have one negative read for it.

Anyways, he appears to be with origin from western Europe. So another "basal" lineage downstream of Z1043 in western Europe. This is interesting, some think J-Z1043 (just below Z631) likely originated in the area of western Europe. I still think this is unlikely, with northern Balkans (or perhaps central Europe) being more likely.
I have noticed a lower DYS385a value (10-13), is a good predictor for J-Z631+ and such haplotypes do exist in various Balkan countries from scientific studies, etc.

Maximus
09-26-2017, 10:22 AM
yes. although he only has 1 read (Z8425-). maybe we hurried a little, but we will observe, and in case of which we will change the tree. this snp located near the centromere. i think this region should be ruled out as unstable and difficult to mapping.

also, a new branch (J-Y36972) was created (YF10330 + another sample) ... when we check for it Z8425 (if he have a reliable result) only then we will know for sure whether the splitting was or is not, unfortunately

dominikmatus
09-27-2017, 10:10 AM
Hello guys, I've got test Y-111 and Flor Veseli told me, that I propably belong to J-Y23094. Since this branch is almost new, I'm curious about every new discovery and the find from Veliki Vanik is good new, since it's first ancient J2b2 in europe. I'm just saving money to Big-Y. My paternal line is from Senec, Slovakia.

Craft1219
12-01-2017, 05:20 AM
Hey fellas,

New to the board and I've been trying to follow by reading the last 20+ pages of this particular thread. Last year I got a 67 market Y-DNA test which confirmed my haplogroup as J-Z615. This summer I upgraded to the Big Y and just got my results. New haplogroup is J-PH1601. I'm relatively green on this but from what I can gather this is of Balkan origin? My oldest known paternal ancestor was born in 1788 in Virginia, USA. The Y-67 matched me closely to another nearby family with same surname who claim to trace their ancestor to an area near Baden, Germany around 1725. Not sure what (if anything) I can contribute but I'm very interested in learning more about my paternal origins.

Trojet
12-01-2017, 04:41 PM
Hey fellas,

New to the board and I've been trying to follow by reading the last 20+ pages of this particular thread. Last year I got a 67 market Y-DNA test which confirmed my haplogroup as J-Z615. This summer I upgraded to the Big Y and just got my results. New haplogroup is J-PH1601. I'm relatively green on this but from what I can gather this is of Balkan origin? My oldest known paternal ancestor was born in 1788 in Virginia, USA. The Y-67 matched me closely to another nearby family with same surname who claim to trace their ancestor to an area near Baden, Germany around 1725. Not sure what (if anything) I can contribute but I'm very interested in learning more about my paternal origins.

Welcome :)

Yes, most likely J-PH1601,PH1602 originates in the Balkans (it seems to be most diverse in Western Balkans, like Croatia, Bosnia). However, there is an interesting distribution and diversity in the area of Germany. Other J-L283 subclades are also found in Balkans/Italy and then NW Europe, Central, etc, so there is nothing too unusual, and considering the testing bias.

cvolt
12-02-2017, 01:01 PM
Hey fellow j2b2's :)

olive picker
12-17-2017, 01:55 PM
Map of J2b2-L283

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

Afshar
12-17-2017, 04:36 PM
Map of J2b2-L283

http://i64.tinypic.com/4fv0ar.png

What is the percentage in Turkey?

Trojet
12-17-2017, 04:56 PM
What is the percentage in Turkey?

I think he should've included Turkey also, but he made a map of Europe since J-L283 has a weak presence ouside of Europe.
Anyways, AFAIK, J-L283 has a pretty weak presence in Turkey. For example, in the Turkish Project I only see 5 such haplotypes out of a total ~500, so that would be ~1%, with two of them being from Spain and Serbia: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/turkey?iframe=yresults

vettor
02-18-2018, 04:50 AM
interesting site for the J2b2-L283

https://j2-m172.info/2015/10/j2b2a1-l283-origins-by-diversity-and-subgroups-focus-jewish-lineages/

Trojet
02-23-2018, 12:16 PM
I posted this on the ancient DNA section, but just wanted to update this thread also.

I checked sample I4331 J2b2a-L283, Veliki Vanik, Bronze Age Dalmatia, ~1600 BCE, from Mathieson et al.(https://www.nature.com/articles/nature25778). I'm showing him as: Z628+ Z2507+ Y15058+ CTS9215+ and Z40053- Z38241- and the rest of downstream informative SNPs no calls. So looks like fully developed J-CTS3617 aka J-Y15058 at YFull, and likely negative for all downstreams: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2507/

agent_lime
04-09-2018, 11:03 AM
Hello fellow j2b2's. Still reading much of this thread.

procoptodon
04-09-2018, 05:46 PM
Nvm. I notcied something weird. The armenian rise 408 LBA is positive for z600 but negative for z627

But the turkish [Ya'aqobh (Cak) Yanni] sample in J2b2 project is positve for 627 and negative for z600?

agent_lime
05-22-2018, 07:43 AM
Someone point me to the right direction for Z1827,Z575?

gwynwood
05-24-2018, 09:52 PM
First post here. My relative is J2b2-Z615. There is very little information available. Can anyone help?

Illyro-Vlach
10-19-2018, 03:38 AM
I've just been notified that my Y-67 results have arrived from FTDNA.com......now I just need to interpret them.

Trojet
10-19-2018, 11:24 AM
I've just been notified that my Y-67 results have arrived from FTDNA.com......now I just need to interpret them.

Congrats! And welcome to the J-Z1296 branch :)

At J-M241 Project on FTDNA, I have grouped you as follows: J2b2a1-L283>...>Z2507>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>? Suggested BigY

At GD 12/67 your closest match at J-M241 Project is kit 391611, Albanian from Kukės region (there is also other Albanians in this cluster but they're much closer together). In my experience this relationship with the Albanians is likely ~1500 years, +/-400 years. There is also a Greek from Peloponnese, kit 50395, who also shares the characteristic values DYS388=16, DYS389I=13, and DYS389II=29 and therefore is part of this subgroup. However, as he is only at 25 markers, it's hard to say who he is closest to.

Illyro-Vlach
10-19-2018, 11:35 AM
Congrats! And welcome to the J-Z1296 branch :)

At J-M241 Project on FTDNA, I have grouped you as follows: J2b2a1-L283>...>Z2507>Z638>Z1296>Z1297>Z1295>Z631>? Suggested BigY

At GD 12/67 your closest match at J-M241 Project is kit 391611, Albanian from Kukės region (there is also other Albanians in this cluster but they're much closer together). In my experience this relationship with the Albanians is likely ~1500 years, +/-400 years. There is also a Greek from Peloponnese, kit 50395, who also shares the characteristic values DYS388=16, DYS389I=13, and DYS389II=29 and therefore is part of this subgroup. However, as he is only at 25 markers, it's hard to say who he is closest to.

Thanks Trojet. No Albanians show in my matches but this Greek guy does (btw, he's cousins with actor John Stamos). How did you go about figuring out who is closest with whom and what tools do you use to calculate TMRCA?

Illyro-Vlach
10-19-2018, 11:35 AM
(please delete duplicate post)

Trojet
10-19-2018, 12:05 PM
Thanks Trojet. No Albanians show in my matches but this Greek guy does (btw, he's cousins with actor John Stamos). How did you go about figuring out who is closest with whom and what tools do you use to calculate TMRCA?

At FTDNA the limit for STR "matches" is 1/12, 2/25, 4/37, 7/67, 10/111. So if anyone is beyond that limit, they will not show up as a "match", even though they may very well be related within a reasonable timeframe. I would be wary of 12 and 25 marker matches though, as they can be thousands of years away if they don't appear at higher levels, but this is not the case with the Greek as he shares those characteristic values I mentioned. The Albanians are beyond the above mentioned range. On FTDNA admins have tools to compare member Genetic Distances beyond those limits and identify clusters. You can also manually compare markers between project members if you go to this page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

The TMRCA distance I mentioned is a rough estimate based on my experience and a distance at 67 markers. NGS testing like BigY can give a much better TMRCA estimate. There is a calculator such as this one that you can play with: http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

If interested in further testing, I would save up on a Big Y-500 which now includes Y111. It actually should be on sale starting mid November.

Illyro-Vlach
10-19-2018, 12:11 PM
At FTDNA the limit for STR "matches" is 1/12, 2/25, 4/37, 7/67, 10/111. So if anyone is beyond that limit, they will not show up as a "match", even though they may very well be related within a reasonable timeframe. I would be wary of 12 and 25 marker matches though, as they can be thousands of years away if they don't appear at higher levels, but this is not the case with the Greek as he shares those characteristic values I mentioned. The Albanians are beyond the above mentioned range. On FTDNA admins have tools to compare member Genetic Distances beyond those limits and identify clusters. You can also manually compare markers between project members if you go to this page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m241?iframe=yresults

The TMRCA distance I mentioned is a rough estimate based on my experience and a distance at 67 markers. NGS testing like BigY can give a much better TMRCA estimate. There is a calculator such as this one that you can play with: http://www.mymcgee.com/tools/yutility111.html

If interested in further testing, I would save up on a Big Y-500 which now includes Y111. It actually should be on sale starting mid November.

Great. Can we move this to email? I want to ask you a few more questions and I do have one concern, plus I don't want to post any public info on a forum. I sent you an email earlier this morning to your gmail account.

Trojet
10-19-2018, 12:13 PM
Great. Can we move this to email? I want to ask you a few more questions and I do have one concern, plus I don't want to post any public info on a forum. I sent you an email earlier this morning to your gmail account.

Sure, no problem ;)

olive picker
10-19-2018, 10:17 PM
Thanks Trojet. No Albanians show in my matches but this Greek guy does (btw, he's cousins with actor John Stamos). How did you go about figuring out who is closest with whom and what tools do you use to calculate TMRCA?

Paternal cousin? J2b2 Stamos.

Illyro-Vlach
10-20-2018, 02:20 AM
Paternal cousin? J2b2 Stamos.


John’s paternal grandfather was John B. Stamatopoulos/Stamos (the son of Vasilios Stamatopoulos and Georgitsa Tsiapralis). John was Greek.

John’s paternal grandmother was Adeline/Lena T. Psaras (the daughter of Thomas/Tom Frank Psaras and Mary Logisis/Lagousis). Adeline was born in Ohio, to Greek parents. Thomas was from Tripoli, Greece.

Sources: Genealogy of John Stamos – https://www.geni.com

Genealogy of John Stamos (focusing on his father’s side) – http://worldconnect.rootsweb.ancestry.com

slamberty
12-02-2018, 12:08 AM
I know it's been a while since I last posted to this thread but I have since done some more testing through YSEQ to determine a deeper subclade of my paternal lineage. These are the latest results.

Quick results summary:
J2b-M12 Panel processing
M241 A+
Z638 C+
Z2432 G-
Z1297 A+
Z1043 T-
Z1295 C-
Y23094 processing
B440 A+
YP136 processing
Y36194 processing
Y36202 processing

slamberty
12-02-2018, 12:10 AM
Also again just to clarify my paternal lineage originates around the area of Luxembourg, most recently having been traced back to what is now Stavelot in Belgium.

slamberty
01-12-2019, 03:19 AM
Just got my final results from YSEQ:

Your final haplogroup is J2b-Y23095*
All known downstream branches have been confirmed negative.

Quick results summary:
J2b-M12 Panel processing
M241 A+
Z638 C+
Z2432 G-
Z1297 A+
Z1043 T-
Z1295 C-
B440 A+
YP136 C-
Y36194 C-
Y36202 C-
Y23095 G+ (phylo-equivalent to Y23094)

Kulin
04-21-2019, 12:51 AM
Hello fellow j2b2's. Still reading much of this thread.

The user 'client' sent me the data to the a study about J-M241 distribution in the greater South Asian region (unfortunately I'm unable to upload the excel file). In South Asia, it seems to be at highest frequency in the Austro-Asiatic Asur Tribals at 78% of 40 samples from the Chota Nagpur Plateau (possibly due to founder effect). However, it seems to be distributed quite evenly throughout most of the region ranging from similar concentrations in Bengal (9-10% of the population) to Kashmir in the North (at 5-9%) to Sindh in the west (at 5%). Though from older studies, Vellalars of Tamil Nadu/Sri Lanka (a SI mid caste) have the highest concentrations (38%+) among caste populations.

I found a similar study however with similar results (you might have seen it), though with more moderate concentrations among tribal groups.

Edit: think its the same study that he sent.

DNADiver
05-13-2020, 07:54 PM
The user 'client' sent me the data to the a study about J-M241 distribution in the greater South Asian region (unfortunately I'm unable to upload the excel file). In South Asia, it seems to be at highest frequency in the Austro-Asiatic Asur Tribals at 78% of 40 samples from the Chota Nagpur Plateau (possibly due to founder effect). However, it seems to be distributed quite evenly throughout most of the region ranging from similar concentrations in Bengal (9-10% of the population) to Kashmir in the North (at 5-9%) to Sindh in the west (at 5%). Though from older studies, Vellalars of Tamil Nadu/Sri Lanka (a SI mid caste) have the highest concentrations (38%+) among caste populations.

I found a similar study however with similar results (you might have seen it), though with more moderate concentrations among tribal groups.

Edit: think its the same study that he sent.

I have read the study you kindly attached,

and it conclude the following:

1. J2a and J2b was not spread through Eurasian demic diffusion.
2.J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 from
Near East to NW region and further eastwards of the subcontinent seems to have unique and complex history of
various known and unknown possible events

3.NW region appears to
be the corridor for entry of these haplogroups into India------ that means it originated from the fertile crescent

3. Most likely events responsible

for the current distribution of J2-M172 sublineages into Indian subcontinent could be any combination of
1) entry of herders from West and Central Asia/Middle East during late glacial maximum (LGM) of Holocene,
2)Neolithic demic diffusion from the West, and 3) Bronze and Iron age migration/admixtures.

slamberty
03-19-2021, 01:42 AM
Sorry I was waiting for the right time to post again in this thread. I recently did a WGS test with Dante Labs in order to further test my paternal line via Dante Labs. Some interesting results there, I ended up splitting a known lineage by sharing one SNP, in this case J-Y182183. It currently shows only on the live tree, the YFULL tree should hopefully update next month. The Belgian sample's mine, the farthest I've been able to trace my paternal line back to is my 5th great grandfather, who was born in 1759 in what is now Burg-Reuland, Liége, Belgium.
43917

slamberty
03-22-2021, 09:33 PM
Given my SNP/STR matches, the best guess I can make at this point in time is Thracian/Thraco-Illyrian? Unless something comes along to change that, nothing else really fits.43971

slamberty
03-26-2021, 09:38 PM
I was going to elaborate some more, Macedonian even. But I was told that I was right to be looking at where the Macedonian, Bulgarian and the Albanian samples are from, their lines are coequal siblings of a man who lived around 600 AD. And it's not for certain that my ancestor was from inside the triangle but it's a good assumption that if not, he was at least close, or at least the ancestor of that line from 600 AD.

Aspar
03-26-2021, 10:02 PM
I was going to elaborate some more, Macedonian even. But I was told that I was right to be looking at where the Macedonian, Bulgarian and the Albanian samples are from, their lines are coequal siblings of a man who lived around 600 AD. And it's not for certain that my ancestor was from inside the triangle but it's a good assumption that if not, he was at least close, or at least the ancestor of that line from 600 AD.

Looking at the tree, you and the English sample share TMRCA with the Balkan samples 3200-2900 ybp or EIA. That's around the height of the Hallstatt Culture. The Macedonian sample is from a place around the Prespa lakes while the Albanians are from Gjirokastėr it seems, in South Albania. The Bulgarian lineage is also very probably a migrant one from around the area of Prespa-South Albania. Overall, this lineage fits the best with the West Balkans, diversity and frequency wise. Therefore in ancient terms it can be best associated with the ancient people known as Illyrians. And it seems the Hallstatt Culture was interacting quite extensively with the Western Balkan cultures during the LBA and EIA. Your lineage seems to have got to Western Europe and Belgium as a result of these contacts and mutual influences between the Hallstatt Culture and the West Balkans.

slamberty
03-30-2021, 04:17 AM
Of course people move around as well. But again taking all things into consideration. But thank you for the feedback, greatly appreciated.

slamberty
03-30-2021, 11:40 AM
The only problem is a lack of samples at the present time. Until YFULL gets more closely related samples the migration could have been at any time in the last 2000 years or so after the most recent common ancestor of my lineage.

slamberty
04-07-2021, 01:56 AM
On top of that, from what I've been told anyway, apparently I'm also from a very long bottleneck that began just after the most recent common ancestor of J-Y23094 lived.

slamberty
04-08-2021, 11:04 PM
I was looking at this as well, a list of Roman Auxiliary units in Germania Inferior, what would eventually become the Low Countries. I was also reading about how the Illyrians and Thracians ended up constituting a good portion of the Roman Legion/Auxiliary units.44212

slamberty
04-10-2021, 12:00 PM
After joining the J2b group on YFULL, I noticed that my sample and the Bulgarian sample underneath mine on the YFULL tree were the only ones so far that have tested positive for SNP Y182183. Initially I was under the impression that my lineage split from J-Y36202 at the point of the most recent common ancestor but because both of our samples have it and I tested negative for all the other mutations defining the other samples, this would indicate that this is an older mutation and that the other mutations must have occurred in their line after it diverged from my most recent common ancestor with them.

slamberty
04-22-2021, 10:42 AM
I remember Maciamo Hay's material being the first that I read to propose the idea that Hallstatt and La Tene Celts carried J2b2 in minority. Even before I had more knowledge of my lineage, I was looking into the Hallstatt Culture. I even remember reading about Noricum and a Celtic confederacy dominating/assimilating an earlier Illyrian population. In this scenario, along with cultural exchange, genetic exchange wasn't just likely but inevitable.

slamberty
04-22-2021, 10:42 AM
But in any event in my case I know I should be looking at J-Y182183 and when and where exactly that mutation occurred and see if YFULL picks up anything knew in the near future as well.

ShpataEMadhe
04-22-2021, 10:07 PM
I remember Maciamo Hay's material being the first that I read to propose the idea that Hallstatt and La Tene Celts carried J2b2 in minority. Even before I had more knowledge of my lineage, I was looking into the Hallstatt Culture. I even remember reading about Noricum and a Celtic confederacy dominating/assimilating an earlier Illyrian population. In this scenario, along with cultural exchange, genetic exchange wasn't just likely but inevitable.

Unlikely, regions with strong j2b have non existant western european r1b

slamberty
04-23-2021, 11:31 PM
Theoretically speaking anyway.

slamberty
04-23-2021, 11:34 PM
But that's a good point as well, the lack of Western European paternal lineages as well.

slamberty
04-23-2021, 11:40 PM
That's why I was leaning more in the direction of Roman expansion in my case.

slamberty
04-30-2021, 11:59 AM
Actually I stand corrected there, I've pretty much ruled out every other theory I had/might have had in the past given the circumstances and am looking at Roman expansion in the case of my lineage.

slamberty
04-30-2021, 11:59 AM
I've taken a particular interest in Albania as well given my closest matches on the YFULL tree as well as looking at the number of Thracian and/or Illyrian units that were deployed to Roman Gaul/Britannia.

slamberty
05-15-2021, 10:39 PM
Phylogeographer was recently updated with the migration path of my lineage (linked to YFULL), again it's theoretical.

44689

ShpataEMadhe
05-16-2021, 09:52 PM
I've taken a particular interest in Albania as well given my closest matches on the YFULL tree as well as looking at the number of Thracian and/or Illyrian units that were deployed to Roman Gaul/Britannia.

J2b l283 may also be native to italy/romans - it is unclear yet

slamberty
05-16-2021, 11:40 PM
There was an ancient Etruscan sample found as well, I do know that much.

slamberty
05-18-2021, 08:09 PM
A new Georgian sample was just added to the YFULL tree that tested positive for J-Y23094 and forms a different branch under the new subclade that my sample helped identify. Also just noticed that one of the Swedish samples that was on the YFULL tree before mine was shares a mutation with the new Georgian sample as well. I'm not sure what to make of it.

44708

slamberty
05-18-2021, 08:10 PM
44709

slamberty
05-22-2021, 09:30 PM
Also a French Canadian sample (flagless) was just added that shares the same mutation as well.44768

slamberty
05-22-2021, 09:33 PM
44770

slamberty
05-25-2021, 12:45 AM
Something was pointed out to me though about most J-L283 lineages, samples/branches with mutations that are 2000 years or older are usually found all over Europe, except for some consistently Balkan lineages.

slamberty
05-26-2021, 08:48 PM
New branching point for my lineage, it looks like the Swedish and French Canadian samples both share another more recent mutation.44812

cvolt
06-03-2021, 03:20 PM
Happy J2b2 pride month

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7bLSAcvBng

slamberty
08-12-2021, 02:13 PM
Going back to some prior posts of mine, apparently earlier assumptions of the "Illyrian" tribes being bearers of the Eastern Hallstatt Culture are archaeologically unsubstantiated (refer to link below) so I've all but disregarded that theory in regards to my lineage since it goes against the grain anyway. However, something that never occurred to me before was that certain Illyrian tribes that were used as Legionaires/Auxiliaries in the Roman Army had actually been "Celticized" prior to the Roman conquest/Illyrian Revolt. So I can only imagine that that could have been a contributing factor in why certain units were posted in Gaul/Germania Inferior aside from preventing the possibility of a revolt. If anything, it could only have helped to "break the ice" if there wasn't as much of a language/cultural barrier between the Roman Army and the local population(s).

https://naryore.eu/norico/kein-illyrikum-in-norikum/

Btw, I'm not sure exactly how accurate that map is either so if I'm missing something, please let me know.

46074

olive picker
08-14-2021, 09:40 PM
Looks like J2b2 was found on some ancient Etruscan samples (link to Trojet's post): https://anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?23955-The-origin-and-legacy-of-the-Etruscans-through-a-2-000-year-archeogenomic-time-transe&p=791540#post791540
What are we to make of the haplogroup being found in so many ancient Italian samples? Daunians, Roman male skeleton, and now Etruscans.

ShpataEMadhe
08-19-2021, 10:21 PM
Going back to some prior posts of mine, apparently earlier assumptions of the "Illyrian" tribes being bearers of the Eastern Hallstatt Culture are archaeologically unsubstantiated (refer to link below) so I've all but disregarded that theory in regards to my lineage since it goes against the grain anyway. However, something that never occurred to me before was that certain Illyrian tribes that were used as Legionaires/Auxiliaries in the Roman Army had actually been "Celticized" prior to the Roman conquest/Illyrian Revolt. So I can only imagine that that could have been a contributing factor in why certain units were posted in Gaul/Germania Inferior aside from preventing the possibility of a revolt. If anything, it could only have helped to "break the ice" if there wasn't as much of a language/cultural barrier between the Roman Army and the local population(s).

https://naryore.eu/norico/kein-illyrikum-in-norikum/

Btw, I'm not sure exactly how accurate that map is either so if I'm missing something, please let me know.

46074

It is true there is some what we may call celtic r1b in central europe but further south you go it goes down near 0% especially in albania today yet germanic clades are more popular (i1 = 6-7%). It is possible that even the r1b l51 in south balkans or south europe in general came from the ostrogoth migrations because it is doubtful the ostrogoths were pure i1 around 400AD. Romans legionaries are another possibility as they also would have carried some L51

If celtics mixed with illyrians it would have been westernmost regions, maybe it explains the levels of "potential illyrian dna" j2b, v13, z2103 etc being not much more popular than r1b clades like l51 in areas in and around croatia which is were northern most "illyrians" lived. This is why we find j2b and v13 clades even in places like norway or sweden - they would have travelled there from regions like croatia after being assimilated by later groups

slamberty
08-22-2021, 12:02 AM
Again I've been going by likelihood seeing as how much of the diversity of J-L283 (J-Y23094 in particular) is around the area of the western Balkans/Italy. This was recently published as well, three new J-M241 samples. Hopefully the BAM files will be accessible in the near future to help determine their specific phylogenetic placement.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.30.454498v1.supplementary-material?fbclid=IwAR0yBNctbgtb7Uf9mONFoI30F4nMOtGR X0U1ZsE8sgEDhntpycLstV56DWw

slamberty
09-01-2021, 02:39 AM
Also three new J-L283 from Serbia, including one confirmed J-Z1043 from the Roman period.

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.458211v1?fbclid=IwAR0XV_oh3ALPzW49RoRb4 b4HyFDsdQrZWcIUCsaQTiz4sOsn931jesBNDRI

AlluGobi
09-03-2021, 11:33 AM
New sample under J-FT19403, would be interesting to see location/background.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT19403/

slamberty
09-24-2021, 06:51 PM
Another interesting read on J-Y23094 from a reliable source, it gives you the option to translate towards the bottom of the page.

http://www.gjenetika.com/j-y23094y82533/

slamberty
09-24-2021, 06:52 PM
Given the circumstances, I've pretty much accepted that the progenitor to my family was most likely a Roman auxiliary of Illyrian origin who either brought his family with him to the Rhineland/Benelux region or ended up marrying a local woman.

slamberty
09-24-2021, 06:53 PM
Now I'm just interested in helping to further research and new samples/matches/etc.

AlluGobi
09-30-2021, 03:53 PM
New sample under J-FT19403, would be interesting to see location/background.

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FT19403/

This sample has disappeared from YFull. Anyone know why that would be?

It's still there under J-FT14578 on FTDNA.

AlluGobi
11-07-2021, 06:42 PM
This sample has disappeared from YFull. Anyone know why that would be?

It's still there under J-FT14578 on FTDNA.

On FTDNA, J-FT14578 has diverged further with two new samples under J-FTB28040. One of them was clearly the one that was added on YFull for a little while.

So now, J-FT14578 has one Bahraini and one Kuwaiti. The samples under J-FTB28040 are listed as unknown origin, but I suspect both of these are also from Kuwait as one of the surnames indicate ancestry from a now abandoned Kuwaiti island.

Seems to be a small cluster of these around the Persian Gulf area. Wish we had more samples from this part of Iran.

slamberty
11-26-2021, 04:51 PM
New J-L283 from Slovenia:

slamberty
11-26-2021, 04:58 PM
Found this on another thread on Anthrogenica, related to some Iron Age Slovenian samples. As of yet, no scientific journal/paper has been published that I'm aware of. We already have info for some samples, from the CarrionOlalde2021 supplementary tables (I am posting male results only, with haplogroups assigned by teepean47):


I5689; 750-400 BC; Grofove njive; Slovenia_IA; I2a1b1a1b1a1a-Y3721>Y3670>L1229>Z2069>Z2059>Z2068>Y3672 (xY11521,Y10648,Y7243,FGC15111,Y13325,Y31802)

I5690; 750-400 BC; Grofove njive; Slovenia_IA; R1b1a1b1a1a2b1-U152>L2 (xS255,L196,Z49,FGC22500)

I5691; 787-544 BC; Kapiteljska njive, Novo mesto; Slovenia_IA; J2b2a1a1a-L283>Z622>Z600>Z2509>Z585>Z615>Z597 (xZ2507,FGC64029)

I5696; 401-208 BC; Obrežje; Slovenia_IA; R1b1a1b1a1a2c1a1a1a1a1a1a1a1a-L21>DF13>DF49>DF23>M222>DF85>S668>DF97 (xFGC19851,A1332)

slamberty
01-02-2022, 08:56 PM
47911

slamberty
01-09-2022, 09:21 PM
Must give credit where credit is due to this gentleman for coming up with this ancient sample map of J-L283 via Google maps as well.

https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1luwBVUlmGoqbj7yzO2tyKKIJlvh7mtQX&usp=sharing&fbclid=IwAR2W6Sy2L2DMWl1XpNqlRi9pyEUH-nDHl2OAXxGlpv5ChIF-F_pPv_PmFYw