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Sangarius
08-21-2013, 11:18 AM
I thought as a fellow J2b2* carrier I should open a thread about this neglected haplogroup. :D

I found this heatmap of global J2b2 distribution from NatGeo's Genographic project, merged with a map of Anatolia.

The distribution in Anatolia is linked to Phrygian Settlements. My paternal line is from Sangarius, modern-day Sakarya, it's where the home of the Phrygians was located.

Globally the peak of the distribution is located in the Balkans where it is thought to have originated. This site (http://www.dnaancestry.ae/Y-DNA-Haplogroup-J.php) claims it's concentrated highest in Kosovar Albanians with around 17%.

There are theories that claim the haplogroup was spread from the Balkans through Alexander's troups which he recruited in Macedonia. This seems plausible for the spread in Europe, but the presence of J2b2 in India seems to predate this events.


http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8388/8675629245_0f99cf87c3_o.jpg


So any other J2b2 carriers here? Has anybody more information? :)

lgmayka
08-21-2013, 02:57 PM
Are you familiar with all of the subclades below (more specific than) M241 ? (See the J-M102 Project. (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/?/publicwebsite.aspx?vgroup=m102)) They may eventually tell us a lot about how J-M241 spread.

Sangarius
08-21-2013, 03:16 PM
No, I've only tested with 23andme, so I don't know to which specific subclade I belong. I guess I would at least have to take a 37 marker test at FtDNA to find out more.
Are you J2b2?

rms2
08-21-2013, 03:23 PM
If you can afford it, go with 111 markers. You'll want to do it eventually anyway, and you'll get better resolution. 37 markers are just nowhere near enough.

Sangarius
08-21-2013, 05:06 PM
I see, so I better do it right the first time and take the 111 marker test. But at the current price this will have to wait. :-P

I just looked again at the 23andme haplogroup tree mutation mapper. They do actually test for the SNPs associated with the subclades J2b2a (M99), J2b2b (M280) and J2b2c (M321). But I don't have any of the mutations. Is it still possible to fall into one of the subclades when testing STRs?

VinceT
08-23-2013, 08:20 AM
DYS617=12 (rather than >= 13) appears to be a good predictor for belonging to J-Z1296 or below.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajhri0M5fYwQdFR2ei05VGowV2t6WEJVdzd6bUc2V UE#gid=0
http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpJ.html


1000 Genomes Project data has revealed significant more information than FTDNA or Geno 2.0 can currently test for:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Isg4fVz1k6-wbMW7mgzT0KG8eKRMJBFeLJeR_2a9J6g/edit

(Google docs created by the J2b-M102 Project administrator)

lgmayka
08-23-2013, 04:20 PM
I see, so I better do it right the first time and take the 111 marker test. But at the current price this will have to wait. :-P
You need not wait. You can order as little as 12 markers (Y-DNA12) now, then upgrade to 37, 67, or even 111 during the usual Christmas discount sale.


I just looked again at the 23andme haplogroup tree mutation mapper. They do actually test for the SNPs associated with the subclades J2b2a (M99), J2b2b (M280) and J2b2c (M321). But I don't have any of the mutations. Is it still possible to fall into one of the subclades when testing STRs?
Many, many new subclades have been discovered since the 23andMe test was designed.

Dr_McNinja
08-25-2013, 04:41 PM
I just got a test done at 23andme.com and it says my paternal lineage is J2b2* (M241).

A bit about my paternal background: Pakistan, Punjab, ethnicity: Jatt, tribe/clan/surname: Gill

You can read on Jatt at Wikipedia. Most of the results I've seen from them go back to Central Asian lineages, which is what historians usually say (Indo-Scythian origin). But from within Jatts' own ancestral stories, they say the Gill tribe was actually descended from Greeks, possibly from the time of Alexander. I haven't seen a J2b2* match from many other Jatts, most of whom that I've run into online are from haplogroup L. The other story is that the Gills are descended from a Rajput king of a kingdom named 'Mithila' which encompassed Northern India and Nepal. There are more J2b2* results in Nepal and South/East India than there are in my neck of the woods in Pakistan which is also curiously close to the ancestral story (the spread to southern India is in my estimation and connecting the dots, most likely from the Deccan Sultanates when Muslim nobles from the North/West established Sultanates/kingdoms across southern India for several centuries, someone from J2b2* happened to be a prominent figure there... or it could have been much earlier, but I've only heard of Mithila, nothing from the south).

When I get a chance I'll do the FtDNA test since it sounds like it tests for more subclades. How many are there now?

EDIT: Found this from I guess same site as user Sangarius:

http://i.imgur.com/EhYFzMq.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/ydna-haplogroup-j2-m172/8675629333/


Y-DNA Haplogroup J2b2 M241 Geno 2.0 heatmap analysis - Indo Greek. Corresponding areas between Geno 2.0 J2b2 Y-DNA Heat Map and Indo-Greek territory in Pakistan and India. The hotspot between India and Qatar would be the area around the modern town of Karachi (Pakistan). The area of Karachi was known to the ancient Greeks by many names: Krokola, the place where Alexander the Great (Macedonia) camped to prepare a fleet for Babylonia after his campaign in the Indus Valley; 'Morontobara' (probably Manora island near Karachi harbor), from whence Alexander's admiral Nearchus set sail; and Barbarikon, a port of the Greco-Bactrian kingdom. This is also the area were the Indus Civilization was located. Several settlements/colonies were founded by Alexander the Great, some of which had as many as 7000 Macedonians living within their borders. The colony Alexandria on the Indus was home to approximately 10000 Thracian veterans fighting in the Macedonian Army. Several tribes in Pakistan to this day claim descend from Alexander the Greats Army. During the siege of the capital of the Mallians, modern Multan, Alexander was seriously wounded by an arrow; he owed his survival to Abreas, Peucestas and a bodyguard named Leonnatus, who protected the king with the sacred shield of Troy which they had taken years earler from the temple of Athena during Alexanders visit to the ancient city of Troy. While Alexander did not penetrate India so far eastwards to cover the all the J2b2 hotspots in India, his successor king Menander of the Indo Greek kingdom did. Eventually the Macedonian Indo-Greek satrapies were conquered by the Indian emperor Sandrokyptos from the Mauryan Empire. There are more theories about the presence of J2b(2) in India though. There are those for example who claim that some J2b(2) lineages from the Caucasus were part of the Indo-Aryan invasion of the indus valley alongside R1a and those who claim a Neolithic J2 expansion into India. Another theory even tells of Indian origins of the Greeks and Macedonians which would bring us back to the Balkans. Considering however the other findings regarding the rest of the J2b2 heatmap areas and excluding the Indian origin theory of the Greeks and Macedonians one can easily imagine the J2b2`s in India to be descended of the Army of Alexander the Great. (Greeks/Macedonians, Thracians)

Edit #2: A pre-Alexander spread is also talked about. There were two main ethnic contributions to what is now Punjab. The most recent wave would be the Jatts, who came in around Alexander's time or shortly after, during the Indo-Scythian kingdoms. They intermarried and some clans merged with the Rajputs. They are almost indistinguishable from Rajputs today and traditionally Rajputs and Jatts have considered themselves highly related. Rajputs, however, came into India hundreds or even thousands of years before Jatts. When the people who are today called Jatts settled into India, they merged into some of the Rajput tribes and the Kshatriya caste, just as the Rajputs themselves did long before. Other groups who came in way back (the Rajputs are identified with that Aryan invasion of India theory, so Bronze Age sounds about right) include Kambojas (after whom Cambodia is named). Kambojas are another sub-group of Punjabi and intermarry with Rajputs and Jatts routinely. So if the J2b2* is not from the main Jatt migration around the time of the Indo-Greek/Indo-Scythian kingdoms around 2000 years ago, it could be from the Rajput era 3000 to 5000 years ago. But it would be downright amazing if it's from the Bronze Age and somehow the locals have retained the knowledge that their lineage originated all the way in Greece several thousand years later. The mere presence of this narrative suggests a more recent origin (since Rajputs have all but forgotten their ancestry outside India outside of groups like the Kamboj who technically aren't Rajput at all). A third possibility is that there were two J2b2* contributions. The original one in the Bronze Age (for the Nepalese and Western/Southern Indian populations) and another with the Indo-Greek kingdoms more recently (for the Punjabis), though that needlessly complicates things (though it's easily possible then as J2b2* should have been common enough among the Greeks and Macedonians who came to India with Alexander). An extension of this third possibility is that both origin stories are distinct but true. The J2b2* contribution at the turn of the millennium overlapped with the ancient Bronze Age contribution. In any case, the Alexander theory has the most weight I think just due to the fact that the locals actually remember their origin (as I said, the Gill tribe was the only one of the Jatt clans to have the Greek origin story).

lgmayka
08-25-2013, 06:48 PM
When I get a chance I'll do the FtDNA test since it sounds like it tests for more subclades. How many are there now?
A marker test such as Y-DNA12 does not, in itself, test for subclades. But it establishes your DNA sample at FTDNA's lab, so that you can subsequently order SNP tests.

Researchers in our field are continually discovering new subclades. But a fairly up-to-date tree is on the main page of the J-M102 Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102). You can see that J2b2 (J-M241) has two immediate subclades, L283 (European) and Z2432 (Asian?). The European L283 branch then has successive subclades Z628, Z638, Z1296, Z1297, Z639, and Z1043.

Most of these SNPs are probably examined by Geno 2.0, a test sold for $200 by National Geographic (https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/) but actually performed by FTDNA. However, Geno 2.0 does not measure STRs (markers), so it is of little value for recent genealogy.

Dr_McNinja
08-27-2013, 07:58 PM
I hear you can transfer your 23andMe results to FtDNA. Could I do that and then order the SNP tests? Or do I have to give them a DNA sample too?

Dr_McNinja
08-27-2013, 08:01 PM
Oh and about the "Greek" thing. Two interesting developments. First, as I said already, for some reason Jatts say that Gill Jatts are descended from "Greeks" (not necessarily actual Greeks but people of Hellenic civilization who moved eastward).

On the Global Similarity Map at 23andMe, and also the Interpretome at Stanford's site, I am getting a much closer match to Burusho than typical Jatt admixture. I looked up Burusho and they, too, claim to be descended from Alexander's army. While they look it, they are genetically not greek at all, but J2 is highly represented there (and there's plenty of J2 in the Balkans).

Just thought it was an interesting coincidence how the tribe I'm from and the closest genetic match both have this weird Greek narrative and have high %s of J2.

lgmayka
08-27-2013, 08:16 PM
I hear you can transfer your 23andMe results to FtDNA. Could I do that and then order the SNP tests? Or do I have to give them a DNA sample too?
- You can transfer your 23andMe autosomal results (only) into FTDNA's Family Finder. But this costs $69.

- You can then order SNPs for $39 each. But since FTDNA will require a DNA sample, your first order must include a shipping charge ($5 within the USA, $7 elsewhere).

Thus, you are probably better off ordering Y-DNA12, for $49 (plus the shipping charge).

Sangarius
08-28-2013, 02:27 PM
Testing a single SNP costs 39$ ? Hmm.. I wonder how many I would have to test, this J2b2 SNP spreadsheet from the FtDNA M102+ Project shows 16 SNPs:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajhri0M5fYwQdFR2ei05VGowV2t6WEJVdzd6bUc2V UE#gid=0

Well, at least I shouldn't have to test for M241..

Dr_McNinja
08-30-2013, 05:20 PM
By the way what are the current most popular theories about where J2b2 (M241) came from? Middle East or Fertile Crescent? 10,000 years ago or sooner?

Dr_McNinja
08-30-2013, 06:04 PM
Testing a single SNP costs 39$ ? Hmm.. I wonder how many I would have to test, this J2b2 SNP spreadsheet from the FtDNA M102+ Project shows 16 SNPs:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajhri0M5fYwQdFR2ei05VGowV2t6WEJVdzd6bUc2V UE#gid=0

Well, at least I shouldn't have to test for M241..Yeah, these seem like a lot to test for. I'm guessing as a Pakistani I should test for L283, Z2432, Z2433, Y983, Z2443, and Y951 just because there's one other Pakistani in there. That's $234, might as well wait and save money for the full 111 marker test?

BMG
08-31-2013, 02:49 AM
Yeah, these seem like a lot to test for. I'm guessing as a Pakistani I should test for L283, Z2432, Z2433, Y983, Z2443, and Y951 just because there's one other Pakistani in there. That's $234, might as well wait and save money for the full 111 marker test?
I dont think ftdna offers Z2432 and downstream markers presently . Even you upgarde to 111 markers you may have to wait for more people to get tested to get anything intresting .

parasar
08-31-2013, 03:39 AM
Yeah, these seem like a lot to test for. I'm guessing as a Pakistani I should test for L283, Z2432, Z2433, Y983, Z2443, and Y951 just because there's one other Pakistani in there. That's $234, might as well wait and save money for the full 111 marker test?

Maximus of Yfull has analyzed South Asian J2b2.
Asian J2b2-Tree.



"NA20885, NA20905 - GIH
HG03006, HG03908 - BEB
HG03976, HG03785, HG04239, HG03969 - ITU
HG03847, HG03696, HG04210, HG03998 - STU
HG02690 - PJL

Gujarati Indian in Houston, TX (GIH)
Punjabi in Lahore, Pakistan (PJL)
Bengali in Bangladesh (BEB )
Sri Lankan Tamil in the UK (STU)
Indian Telegu in the UK (ITU)"
Among the above the Lankan Tamils have the highest SNP diversity.
http://eng.molgen.org/download/file.php?id=396&mode=view

Maximus
08-31-2013, 06:49 AM
S-Asian branches
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/

Dr_McNinja
08-31-2013, 12:11 PM
Do you think higher SNP diversity is more linked to older age or just larger populations?

Dr_McNinja
08-31-2013, 12:19 PM
I think the Eupedia theory of J2b2 coming into India with R1a has a lot of merit now. Compare the heatmap from the first page to these:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IE_expansion.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Chariot_spread.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-Iranian_origins.png

The J2b2 corresponds to the furthest reaches of the R1a migration/invasion from the North. The only question is why is it at the furthest reaches or fringes? Even that little dot in Swat. Perhaps J2b2 was in the earliest wave and thus propagated to these fringes whereas the R1a movement continued and filled in the rest of Northern and Central India?

As for when J2b2 got caught up with the R1a, the Kurgan hypothesis indicates that the Indo-Europeans as early as the 3rd Millennium BC went into Neolithic Europe and transformed that farming culture. Farming probably got to Neolithic Europe with the J2b2. Then the blank being filled in is that somehow some of these people from Old Europe came around through Central Asia in the latter half of the 2nd Millennium BC and wound up in northwest Punjab, Northern and Eastern India, and Sindh/Gujarat.

My ancestry is Jatt (i.e, indigenous peoples of northwestern India commonly reputed to be the most direct or earliest ancestors of the Central Asian people who came into India) from within India, further Southeast, and my genetic admixture shows higher South Indian and low Baloch compared to the other Northwestern populations (meaning either a late trip back up to Punjab and/or they were living in Punjab and not mixing too much with the others). The J2b2 could mean they were very old Jatts who had been in India for over a thousand years. Most of the J2b2 disseminated into the local ethnicities but some might have remained "Jat" and then moved back to Punjab.

This doesn't rule out the crazy Alexander theories because he happened to conquer precisely these areas and probably had J2b2 people with him which is a real headache.

Dr_McNinja
08-31-2013, 01:08 PM
Maximus of Yfull has analyzed South Asian J2b2.
Asian J2b2-Tree.



Among the above the Lankan Tamils have the highest SNP diversity.
http://eng.molgen.org/download/file.php?id=396&mode=viewI don't suppose it'd be possible to use HG02690's data (here I think (ftp://ftp.1000genomes.ebi.ac.uk/vol1/ftp/data/HG02690/)) to form an admixture picture?

Dr_McNinja
09-01-2013, 05:23 PM
They edited the J2b2 spreadsheet at the FtDNA M102 project. They removed the one or two Indians it looks like.

Dr_McNinja
09-25-2013, 06:26 PM
^ I was wrong about that. They just moved the two Indian samples.

I just ordered a YDNA-12 kit from FTDNA. What should I expect? Will they test beyond M241, like L283? (EDIT: Nm, looks like I'll have to order the SNPs)

Dr_McNinja
11-07-2013, 06:29 PM
I got my FTDNA results:


DYS393 12
DYS390 23
DYS19 15
DYS391 11
DYS385 12-18
DYS426 11
DYS388 15
DYS439 11
DYS389I 12
DYS392 11
DYS389II 29Predicted J-M172.

Closest genetic match was a J2b1 from Turkey with a genetic distance of 1. Then on ysearch.org (my ID there is DHQ7Q), my closest matches were from England (3AW2S) and Italy (FZ8V5) with genetic distances of 2 (but haplogroups unknown for the English and J2 for the Italian).

The TiP report from the one in Turkey on FTDNA:


Generations Percentage
4 6.81%
8 19.28%
12 33.15%
16 46.30%
20 57.79%
24 67.37%

I'm kit B6225 on FTDNA.

What confuses me is that in the chart on: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx?section=yresults

It also says my result at DYS437 is 14 and DYS438 is 9. Where did those two extra results come from? When I add those to my ysearch info, the matches still show the guy from England but now at a genetic distance of 3. Then someone else also at genetic distance 3 (tested J2), but not the Italian.

Now, what's the difference between ordering just SNPs or upgrading the test to 25, 37, or 67 markers? (it won't show the option to purchase the 111 marker upgrade for some reason). Will ordering the marker upgrade also predict the haplogroup or does that require the SNP purchase?

lgmayka
11-07-2013, 08:35 PM
It also says my result at DYS437 is 14 and DYS438 is 9. Where did those two extra results come from? When I add those to my ysearch info, the matches still show the guy from England but now at a genetic distance of 3. Then someone else also at genetic distance 3 (tested J2), but not the Italian.
For several years now, FTDNA has tested those two additional markers as a double-check, to make sure that there is no mixup of samples (if you later order an upgrade to 25 or 37 markers). The appearance of those extra markers on public spreadsheets is rather new.

Now, what's the difference between ordering just SNPs or upgrading the test to 25, 37, or 67 markers? (it won't show the option to purchase the 111 marker upgrade for some reason). Will ordering the marker upgrade also predict the haplogroup or does that require the SNP purchase?
Traditionally, FTDNA runs a discount sale on marker upgrades during the holiday season. Thus, you might wait a couple weeks before ordering an upgrade to 37 or 67 markers.

In the J-M102 Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx?section=ysnp), I don't see any Geno 2.0 results for J2b* or J2b1. Since you appear to belong to J2b1...If you can afford it, perhaps you should order Geno 2.0 right now, while it is on sale for $160 (http://shop.nationalgeographic.com/ngs/browse/productDetail.jsp?productId=2001246&gsk&code=EM110513A&utm_source=NatGeocom&utm_medium=Email&utm_content=ngstore_20131105&utm_campaign=Store).

Dr_McNinja
11-11-2013, 06:52 PM
How long does it usually take for a SNP or DYS test?

newtoboard
11-12-2013, 08:33 PM
If I recall correctly J2b2 appears to be Pre-Neolithic right? There still seem to be people arguing for an origin with Alexander the Great (whose army somehow didn't leave any other Balkan Y-DNA's around).

Dr_McNinja
11-13-2013, 02:26 AM
If I recall correctly J2b2 appears to be Pre-Neolithic right? There still seem to be people arguing for an origin with Alexander the Great (whose army somehow didn't leave any other Balkan Y-DNA's around).Either that or Neolithic (even late Neolithic). Personally I like the Eupedia theory of a late Neolithic entrance to South Asia, hitching a ride with the R1a groups. The J2b2 heatmap roughly corresponds to the early South Asian Indo-European/Aryan settlements (North India, Sindh).

parasar
11-14-2013, 03:17 AM
Either that or Neolithic (even late Neolithic). Personally I like the Eupedia theory of a late Neolithic entrance to South Asia, hitching a ride with the R1a groups. The J2b2 heatmap roughly corresponds to the early South Asian Indo-European/Aryan settlements (North India, Sindh).

That would depend on how R1a1 entered India. If it was from Europe through west Asia, then you could be correct.

The consensus (please see the Hammer thread) though is now shifting towards R coming from SE Asia (the data indicating this is actually quite old). If that is the case R1a1 and R2 may have branched towards India while R1a1 and R1b went onward to Europe.

It is because of this 'R from SE Asia' scenario, and the recent restructuring of the phlylogeny of F-G/HIJK, I think that F-G/HIJK is old connection between Europe, West Asia, and South Asia, while the R is the more recent one.

parasar
11-14-2013, 03:49 AM
I'm kit B6225 on FTDNA.

What confuses me is that in the chart on: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx?section=yresults

It also says my result at DYS437 is 14 and DYS438 is 9. Where did those two extra results come from? When I add those to my ysearch info, the matches still show the guy from England but now at a genetic distance of 3. Then someone else also at genetic distance 3 (tested J2), but not the Italian.

Now, what's the difference between ordering just SNPs or upgrading the test to 25, 37, or 67 markers? (it won't show the option to purchase the 111 marker upgrade for some reason). Will ordering the marker upgrade also predict the haplogroup or does that require the SNP purchase?

That 14 along with DYS385 12, 18 and close derivatives could form a cluster. My advice would be not to upgrade STRs since such upgrades would be useful only if lots of such M241 data from the Punjab were available. I would rather recommend a Full Genomes or the currently cheaper FTDNA Y test (Full Genome is to announce a lower priced version soon too.).

Dr_McNinja
11-14-2013, 04:01 AM
That would depend on how R1a1 entered India. If it was from Europe through west Asia, then you could be correct.

The consensus (please see the Hammer thread) though is now shifting towards R coming from SE Asia (the data indicating this is actually quite old). If that is the case R1a1 and R2 may have branched towards India while R1a1 and R1b went onward to Europe.

It is because of this 'R from SE Asia' scenario, and the recent restructuring of the phlylogeny of F-G/HIJK, I think that F-G/HIJK is old connection between Europe, West Asia, and South Asia, while the R is the more recent one.What's the Hammer thread?

Dr_McNinja
11-14-2013, 04:03 AM
That 14 along with DYS385 12, 18 and close derivatives could form a cluster. My advice would be not to upgrade STRs since such upgrades would be useful only if lots of such M241 data from the Punjab were available. I would rather recommend a Full Genomes or the currently cheaper FTDNA Y test (Full Genome is to announce a lower priced version soon too.).What's the Full Genome test? Do you mean Geno 2.0? And which FTDNA test are you referring to?

parasar
11-14-2013, 04:43 AM
What's the Hammer thread?
Some excerpts:
"Rapid splitting of lineages in Southeast Asia to P, R and Q, the last two of which then appear in western Europe..."
"migrated out of Africa and into SouthEast Asia then moved back west into Anatolia. This implies changes are needed in the migration maps presented by FTDNA & Genographic project."
"There are new SNPs that revise haplogroup K. There was a rapid diversification of K in Southeast Asia and a later appearance of R and Q in western Eurasia. This suggests a very strange picture where people who got out of Africa were in Southeast Asia and it wasn’t until later after the diversification center that they headed west."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1577-Mike-Hammer-goes-for-post-Neolithic-entry-of-R-into-Europe&p=19037&viewfull=1#post19037

Slide from Hammer's presentation:
http://dnaexplained.files.wordpress.com/2013/11/hammer-r-and-q-in-europe.jpg

parasar
11-14-2013, 04:51 AM
What's the Full Genome test? Do you mean Geno 2.0? And which FTDNA test are you referring to?

Please see here: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1565-FTDNA-s-Next-Gen-Y-Sequencing-Roll-out-Sale-vs-Full-Genomes-what-s-the-diff

Dr_McNinja
11-18-2013, 05:40 AM
I can't afford the Big Y test yet, and I'm not sure I want to spend that much yet either.

Does Big Y test for every SNP in the Advanced SNP test? Including L283 and all the other J2b2*/M241 subclades? What about Geno 2.0? I can't seem to find a list of SNPs tested by Geno 2.0.

VinceT
11-18-2013, 06:46 AM
I can't afford the Big Y test yet, and I'm not sure I want to spend that much yet either.

Does Big Y test for every SNP in the Advanced SNP test? Including L283 and all the other J2b2*/M241 subclades? What about Geno 2.0? I can't seem to find a list of SNPs tested by Geno 2.0.

I've stored my Geno 2.0 Y-chromosome call file at http://tilroe.ca/vince/RF4XAF3S.ychromo.csv
It contains the Y-SNP list as of 3 Oct 2013.

We do not yet know if BIG Y covers every SNP on the Advanced SNP menu. It should cover a good portion of them at the very least.

I am checking to see if my uncle's sample (J2b2-Z631*) has enough DNA left over to order the BIG Y.

Dr_McNinja
11-18-2013, 02:11 PM
I've stored my Geno 2.0 Y-chromosome call file at http://tilroe.ca/vince/RF4XAF3S.ychromo.csv
It contains the Y-SNP list as of 3 Oct 2013.

We do not yet know if BIG Y covers every SNP on the Advanced SNP menu. It should cover a good portion of them at the very least.

I am checking to see if my uncle's sample (J2b2-Z631*) has enough DNA left over to order the BIG Y.Thanks! Looks like it does test for L283. I'll probably get the Geno 2.0 test done then instead of ordering specific SNPs from FTDNA. Hope that $40 off sale lasts another week.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 05:23 PM
I think that F-G/HIJK is old connection between Europe, West Asia, and South Asia, while the R is the more recent one.I agree, just not sure on what "old" and "recent" exactly mean with respect to timescales.

Dr_McNinja
11-20-2013, 05:28 PM
My post in the other thread:



"Lastly, HG J2b2-M241–related microsatellite variance is higher in Uttar Pradesh near the border of Nepal. It should be noted that numerous Mesolithic sites have been observed in this region (Kennedy 2000)."
Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/Interesting for a number of reasons. My father's phased paternal kit (via GEDmatch's phasing tool) showed high affinity for this exact area (Nepal was high on his population match) and in DNA-Tribes my highest match was the Tharu population of this region. There were other associations with Northeast Indian tribal populations in these various tests too. There's no such association with my mother's kit which was closer to Punjabi Brahmin in the admixture tools.

Also note how the Haplogroup frequency overlaps between R1a1, R2, J2b2, but variation differs:

http://i.imgur.com/swYxoDW.png
http://i.imgur.com/dAmDj6f.png
http://i.imgur.com/uBbLpsv.png

The Geno 2.0 map shows an additional hotspot in Sindh/Gujarat which makes the correlation that much more striking.

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 04:00 AM
First upgrade to 25 markers completed at FTDNA:


DYS393 = 12
DYS390 = 23
DYS19 = 15
DYS391 = 11
DYS385 = 12-18
DYS426 = 11
DYS388 = 15
DYS439 = 11
DYS389I = 12
DYS392 = 11
DYS389II = 29
DYS458 = 18
DYS459 = 8-9
DYS455 = 11
DYS454 = 11
DYS447 = 25
DYS437 = 14
DYS448 = 19
DYS449 = 30
DYS464 = 10-15-15-16
Upgrade to Y-DNA37 + DYS617 pending.

So far no matches at 25 markers on FTDNA.

Y-Search results: http://i.imgur.com/Q4GI7QP.png

FTDNA M102+ (J2b, J2b1, J2b2) project: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx?vgroup=m102&section=yresults

I am kit B6225.

That '10' at DYS464a really threw me for a loop. No one else in the group has it.

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 04:09 AM
I completed the Geno 2.0 test and mailed it in the other day. Don't know how long to expect results, it says at least 6 weeks but both 23andMe and FTDNA complete theirs earlier.

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 04:26 AM
The overall J haplogroup project:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Y-DNA_J/default.aspx?vgroup=Y-DNA_J&section=yresults

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 04:43 AM
There's one other Punjabi, an Arora from Pakistan, kit # N49229.

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 03:20 PM
Tried out a haplogroup predictor:

http://i.imgur.com/w0wpvVZ.png

Will do it again after the next 12 markers are done.

Dr_McNinja
12-04-2013, 11:30 PM
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J2b/

What happened here? They moved the South Asian tree so it's no longer a branch of M241? Why would they do that if all these people tested positive for the M241 SNP?

VinceT
12-05-2013, 02:56 AM
Good catch. That looks like it could be a database or programming error. Z2432 etc. should be below M241 parallel to L283.

Dr_McNinja
12-06-2013, 11:29 PM
So... I got the result for my Y-STR @ DYS617. It's 10. Was not expecting that either...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ajhri0M5fYwQdFR2ei05VGowV2t6WEJVdzd6bUc2V UE#gid=0

Everyone is 12 or 13 except for one guy from Iraq who has 15.

I'm seriously doubting whether I'm J-M241 but I don't see how 23andMe could have screwed up testing for that SNP.

Dr_McNinja
12-15-2013, 03:54 AM
Upgrade to Y-DNA 37 finished. Don't think I'm going to get any higher than this:


PANEL 3 (26-37)
DYS460=11
Y-GATA-H4=9
YCAII=19-20
DYS456=13
DYS607=13
DYS576=15
DYS570=18
CDY=34-38
DYS442=12
DYS438=9Haplogroup predictor now says:
J2-M205 =>41% J2-M102 =>23% J2-M67 =>13% I-P37.2 =>8% J =>4% I-S31* =>3% H =>3% J1-M267 =>3% J2-M172 =>2% We'll see when my Geno 2.0 results come back.

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 04:40 AM
My Geno 2.0 results came in and I'm confirmed J-M241. These are the SNPs transferred over to FTDNA:


CTS10010+, CTS10362+, CTS1068+, CTS10858+, CTS109+, CTS11358+, CTS11571+, CTS11575+, CTS11726+, CTS11765+, CTS11787+, CTS1196+, CTS12047+, CTS125+, CTS12632+, CTS1996+, CTS2623+, CTS2769+, CTS3331+, CTS3431+, CTS3536+, CTS3654+, CTS3662+, CTS3868+, CTS3936+, CTS3996+, CTS4359+, CTS4364+, CTS4368+, CTS4407+, CTS4443+, CTS4740+, CTS5280+, CTS5318+, CTS5457+, CTS5532+, CTS5628+, CTS5962+, CTS6135+, CTS6383+, CTS6800+, CTS6907+, CTS6932+, CTS7404+, CTS7738+, CTS7856+, CTS7922+, CTS7933+, CTS8096+, CTS8243+, CTS852+, CTS8749+, CTS886+, CTS8938+, CTS8980+, CTS9229+, CTS9240+, CTS9828+, F1046+, F1167+, F1181+, F1209+, F1302+, F1320+, F1329+, F1450+, F1460+, F1634+, F1704+, F1714+, F1744+, F1753+, F1767+, F2048+, F2075+, F2116+, F2142+, F2155+, F2174+, F2276+, F2302+, F2345+, F2366+, F2390+, F2402+, F2502+, F2587+, F2688+, F2710+, F2746+, F2749+, F2769+, F2794+, F2817+, F2837+, F2839+, F2973+, F2985+, F2993+, F3074+, F3111+, F3119+, F3136+, F3335+, F3343+, F3347+, F3358+, F3368+, F3384+, F3402+, F3556+, F3692+, F4072+, F4188+, F4272+, F4283+, F719+, F922+, L132+, L134+, L15+, L16+, L228+, L282+, L350+, L403+, L468+, L470+, L498+, L566+, L748+, L778+, L781+, M139+, M168+, M172+, M221+, M235+, M241+, M294+, M304+, M314+, M42+, M89+, M94+, P123+, P124+, P126+, P127+, P130+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P14+, P141+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P151+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P166+, P187+, P209+, PF1016+, PF1029+, PF1031+, PF1040+, PF1046+, PF1061+, PF1092+, PF1097+, PF110+, PF1203+, PF1269+, PF1276+, PF15+, PF192+, PF210+, PF212+, PF223+, PF234+, PF258+, PF2591+, PF2593+, PF2599+, PF2600+, PF2608+, PF2611+, PF2615+, PF2624+, PF263+, PF2631+, PF2643+, PF272+, PF2745+, PF2747+, PF2748+, PF2749+, PF2770+, PF278+, PF292+, PF316+, PF325+, PF342+, PF3504+, PF3515+, PF3517+, PF3518+, PF3534+, PF3560+, PF3561+, PF3562+, PF4490+, PF4491+, PF4513+, PF4521+, PF4530+, PF4572+, PF4591+, PF4595+, PF4597+, PF4598+, PF4622+, PF4886+, PF4898+, PF4925+, PF4926+, PF4935+, PF500+, PF601+, PF667+, PF719+, PF720+, PF725+, PF7292+, PF7295+, PF7296+, PF7304+, PF7317+, PF7346+, PF7369+, PF7371+, PF779+, PF796+, PF803+, PF815+, PF821+, PF840+, PF844+, PF892+, PF937+, PF951+, PF954+, PF970+, V186+, V189+, V205+, V52+, V9+, YSC0000056+, YSC0000064+, YSC0000066+, YSC0000165+, YSC0000197+, YSC0000228+, YSC0000236+, YSC0000239+, YSC0000265+, Z1827+, Z518+, Z519+, Z520+, Z521+, Z524+, Z525+, Z526+, Z528+, Z530+, Z531+, Z532+, Z533+, Z535+, Z536+, Z537+, Z540+, Z543+, Z544+, Z545+, Z546+, Z550+, Z551+, Z552+, Z554+, Z555+, Z556+, Z557+, Z560+, Z561+, Z563+, Z564+, Z565+, Z567+, Z575+, Z586+, Z591+, Z593+, Z598+, Z599+, Z605+, Z610+, Z611+, Z620+

I underlined and made blue the SNPs I have in this list:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TrRqwT_kSv8SPBXnlsF9oe_-WBSd3LmQgZpPd2gUe8I/edit?usp=sharing

EDIT: The F2302+ is a false positive, I should fix that: http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/th/read/Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-I/2013-04/1366982344

Dr_McNinja
01-16-2014, 05:13 AM
It says I'm CTS8749+ which would make me the only one out of the J projects I've joined except I think it's a false positive. I'm GG at that value in the raw data and a Google search brings up some pages which say GG is negative.

Compared to another Indian J2b2 user at FTDNA, the other differences were that I was PF3514- and PF4499-.

Dr_McNinja
01-26-2014, 03:28 AM
Revised tree posted:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Isg4fVz1k6-wbMW7mgzT0KG8eKRMJBFeLJeR_2a9J6g/edit

BakodiP
01-26-2014, 04:53 PM
Revised tree posted:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Isg4fVz1k6-wbMW7mgzT0KG8eKRMJBFeLJeR_2a9J6g/edit

I've just oredered the CTS494 and the Z1825 through YSEQ.

Dr_McNinja
01-30-2014, 07:00 PM
YSEQ added Z2432! Damn, just when I left the country and won't be back for 2 months...

Dr_McNinja
01-30-2014, 07:09 PM
I've just oredered the CTS494 and the Z1825 through YSEQ.Let us know what the turnaround time is to getting your results from them. Hopefully they're quicker than FTDNA.

It would also be nice if FTDNA allowed you to import SNP results from them as they do with Geno 2.0 (unlikely though, I know, since they run Geno 2.0 themselves).

Dr_McNinja
01-30-2014, 07:32 PM
This is a proposed naming convention: https://spreadsheets.google.com/tq?tqx=out:html&key=0AtajLqik04ZAdE80a21aR2doOGZYZ2dBdlR2V1J4d0E&gid=0&headers=1&tq=SELECT%20A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J%20WHERE%20D%20CONTAI NS%20%27J2b%27%20ORDER%20BY%20D

What do you think? Does anyone use this?

BakodiP
01-31-2014, 01:40 PM
This is a proposed naming convention: https://spreadsheets.google.com/tq?tqx=out:html&key=0AtajLqik04ZAdE80a21aR2doOGZYZ2dBdlR2V1J4d0E&gid=0&headers=1&tq=SELECT%20A,B,D,E,F,G,H,I,J%20WHERE%20D%20CONTAI NS%20%27J2b%27%20ORDER%20BY%20D

What do you think? Does anyone use this?

It looks a bit chaotic to me! :S I think this is not the time, that one should name the clades like J2b2b2b2b2b2b... It's easier like J2b1, J2b2-L283, J2b*-Z574 etc.

Dr_McNinja
02-01-2014, 11:00 AM
My DYS461 results came in, the value is 9. According to parasar, subtracting two from the FTDNA value should be equivalent to the studies where South Asians had 7 and Europeans had 8, so this puts me in line with other South Asian results.

MJost
02-10-2014, 08:46 PM
My step-son just came back J2b2* from 23andme. English surname Warden. He wont be expecting that result.

MJost

JaG
02-10-2014, 08:58 PM
There's a J2b2 group of Worden/Wardens (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/worden/default.aspx?section=yresults) at FTDNA. They are Z1043+.

MJost
02-10-2014, 10:18 PM
Just digging into the limited surname information. I assumed British, I didn't know there was a FtDNA group. We are just starting looking at it. Thanks.

MJost

VinceT
02-12-2014, 05:46 AM
The Wordens cluster with my Schleicher uncle, who has traceable ancestry from a German (donauschwaben) colony in Serbia, just north of Belgrade. The donauschwaben Schleichers in general have been alleged to come from areas near Stuttgart in Württemberg. My uncle's kit tested Z631+ Z1043-, and his TMRCA with the Wordens is somewhere around 1800 years ago. This makes sense as the Wordens in England are speculated of descending from possible Roman mercenaries.

MJost
02-18-2014, 02:58 PM
The Wordens cluster with my Schleicher uncle, who has traceable ancestry from a German (donauschwaben) colony in Serbia, just north of Belgrade. The donauschwaben Schleichers in general have been alleged to come from areas near Stuttgart in Württemberg. My uncle's kit tested Z631+ Z1043-, and his TMRCA with the Wordens is somewhere around 1800 years ago. This makes sense as the Wordens in England are speculated of descending from possible Roman mercenaries.

Thanks, now that is interesting consideration. He has no paternal side relatives to ask. I just uploaded his data to Gedmatch to do some admixture analysis. The paternal lineage information is next to nothing. 23andme showed that he has predicted 3rd cousins in Europe, Consthum, Luxembourg and two in Greece - Kosani & Naousa.

MJost
He will have to investigate.

MJost

Pillar_of_fire
03-21-2014, 08:35 PM
Hi all,

a first cousin of my father is J2b2 and he is at 67 markers at GD of 6 and 7 to different members of Worden. There are other kits as well. The parental line of this cousin is Bulgarian.

hope this helps

BakodiP
04-12-2014, 09:28 AM
Let us know what the turnaround time is to getting your results from them. Hopefully they're quicker than FTDNA.

It would also be nice if FTDNA allowed you to import SNP results from them as they do with Geno 2.0 (unlikely though, I know, since they run Geno 2.0 themselves).

Hi! I got my results at about 4 weeks after they had received my samples.
I've found to be CTS494-, and Z1825-, so it seems like my clade is pretty unique. It might be that it originated where our J2b* forefather came from.

Dr_McNinja
04-30-2014, 11:51 AM
Hi! I got my results at about 4 weeks after they had received my samples.
I've found to be CTS494-, and Z1825-, so it seems like my clade is pretty unique. It might be that it originated where our J2b* forefather came from.
I would think probably near Anatolia/Caucasus since J2b1 is common there and my closest Y-STR matches (albeit at 12 markers) are J2b1 from there.

Do you have FTDNA or Ysearch account? Where are your closest matches from?

BakodiP
05-13-2014, 04:42 AM
My closest matches are Armenians, and according to a genetic distance counter out forefather lived 800-1200 years ago. My FTDNA ID is 238654, and I'm also on Ysearch but I don't remember my ID by heart. :/

Dr_McNinja
05-28-2014, 06:22 PM
I ordered a Z2432 test from YSEQ.net, will update when results come in.

Dr_McNinja
06-06-2014, 04:27 AM
My YSEQ.net results say "T+" for Z2432 and according to this:

http://ybrowse.isogg.org/cgi-bin/gb2/gbrowse_details/chrY?ref=ChrY;start=7508082;end=7508082;name=Z2432 ;class=Sequence;feature_id=13848;db_id=chrY%3Adata base


allele_anc: G
allele_der: T
comments: Downstream of J-M241 and parallel to L283
mutation: G to TI assume that means I am Z2432+

Dr_McNinja
06-06-2014, 04:29 PM
I sent a 'Wish a SNP' request to YSEQ for six more SNPs from the Z2432 branch:


I would like to request more SNPs from the Z2432 branch of J2-M241:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Isg4fVz1k6-wbMW7mgzT0KG8eKRMJBFeLJeR_2a9J6g/edit

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/

YSOGG doesn't list the information for some of the other Z* SNPs but does for a few parallel Y* SNPs. I'd like to request the following six SNPs:

Z2433 (downstream of Z2432) (Y956 is in YSOGG and is parallel to Z2433)
-Y950 (downstream of Z2433)
--Y947 (downstream of Y950)
-Y958 (downstream of Z2433, parallel to Y950)
-Z2443 (downstream of Z2433, parallel to Y950 and Y958) (Y954 is in YSOGG and parallel to Z2443)
--Y951 (downstream of Z2443)If they add these, I'd order Z2443 and depending on those results go for Y951 next (found in Gujaratis and Punjabis) or Z2433.

Dr_McNinja
06-07-2014, 06:38 PM
Responses:


Z2433: Primers have been designed and will be ordered from our supplier.
Y950: 98.8% similar to ChrX:89209684..89210693. Not recommended. Please let me know if Y1009 or Y965 would be equivalent.
Y947: Primers have been designed and will be ordered from our supplier.
Y958: Primers have been designed and will be ordered from our supplier.
Z2443: Primers have been designed and will be ordered from our supplier.
Y951: 99.1% similar to ChrX:89668314..89669315


Yes, Y1009 or Y965 would be equivalent to Y950.

The entire list of equivalent SNPs to Y951 from Yfull would be: Z8393 * Z8391 * Z8390 * Z8388 * Z8386 * Z8385 * Z8384 * Z8383 * Z8382 * Z8379 * Z8377 * Z8376 * Z8375 * Z8374 * Z8373 * Z8372 * Y2165 * Y2164 * Y2163 * Y2162 * Y2161 * Y2160 * Y1001 * Y998 * Y991 * Y989.2/Y989 * Y980 * Y976 * Y971 * Y969 * Y963 * Y962 * Y959 * Y951

So any of those should suffice.Who can I contact about Yfull? They should probably rename those two haplogroups if those SNPs aren't the best to test for.

parasar
06-07-2014, 06:52 PM
Vladimir Tagankin [email protected] , Group Co-Administrator
https://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1a/

or

Maximus Centurion
https://www.facebook.com/ivan.dragov.75

Dr_McNinja
06-09-2014, 09:50 AM
Z2433, Y947, Y958, and Z2443 are now available on YSEQ.net. I ordered Z2443.

Alternatives to Y950 and Y951 should be available soon.

Dr_McNinja
06-12-2014, 02:16 PM
YSEQ.net is offering Y998 and Y2163 in place of Y951 and Y965 instead of Y950.

I modified this YFull graphic to make it clearer for new users: http://i.imgur.com/vlCPcU6.png

Dr_McNinja
07-03-2014, 06:39 PM
Updated South Asian J-M241 tree from newest Yfull tree: http://i.imgur.com/fKy0P5y.png

Dr_McNinja
07-04-2014, 10:54 PM
I tested negative for Z2443, this is interesting since that was the parent SNP to the Gujarati/Punjabi branch. I ordered a test for Z2433 now.

I also came out negative for M4874, FGC9538, and CTS9192 (they were near Z2443 and tested for free).

Dr_McNinja
07-05-2014, 12:49 PM
Can someone explain to me the difference here?



What does G- mean when the ancestral is G? Does that mean I'm positive for A, the derived and therefore Z2443+?No, the minus behind the allele means that you are negative (ancestral) for the Z2443 marker.
So you are Z2443-.

Z2432 is ancestral G, derived T and they said I was "T+" which meant positive for Z2432.

Z2443 is ancestral G, derived A and they said I was "G-" which meant negative for Z2443.

What exactly do ancestral and derived mean here?

parasar
07-05-2014, 03:11 PM
Can someone explain to me the difference here?



Z2432 is ancestral G, derived T and they said I was "T+" which meant positive for Z2432.

Z2443 is ancestral G, derived A and they said I was "G-" which meant negative for Z2443.

What exactly do ancestral and derived mean here?

Ancestral just means the state for Y-'Adam.'
Y-'Adam' was G at both. 7508082 G, 18740129 G. As I am in the R line, I would be G for both.
So I would think that as you mention you are 7508082 T Z2432+ (short T+) and 18740129 G Z2443- (short G-).

RCO
07-05-2014, 03:16 PM
How many SNPs are separating the European from the Indian J2b types ?

Dr_McNinja
07-05-2014, 04:24 PM
How many SNPs are separating the European from the Indian J2b types ?L283 (Europe) and Z2432 (South Asia) are parallel and downstream of M241 (J2b2*).

RCO
07-05-2014, 11:20 PM
Yes, thanks, but how many SNPs (shared and private) SNPs approximately downstream (below) of M241 via L283 and Z2432 in the FGC or BigY tested cases ? What would be the average number of SNPs since the bifurcation ?

Dr_McNinja
07-06-2014, 04:25 PM
Yes, thanks, but how many SNPs (shared and private) SNPs approximately downstream (below) of M241 via L283 and Z2432 in the FGC or BigY tested cases ? What would be the average number of SNPs since the bifurcation ?There's quite a few actually. You can check Yfull for the full tree.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

I don't know of any J-M241 individuals, South Asians at least, who have gotten the deeper Y tests.

Dr_McNinja
07-15-2014, 12:18 AM
Positive for Z2433, testing Z2437 and Y958 next.

MJost
07-30-2014, 02:07 PM
Just digging into the limited surname information. I assumed British, I didn't know there was a FtDNA group. We are just starting looking at it. Thanks.

MJost
Update with Doug McDonald's review.
English= 0.911 Sicily= 0.089 or
English= 0.875 Tuscan= 0.125 or
English= 0.845 Italian= 0.155 or
which is just a bit Continental but basically British

MJost

rokousa
07-31-2014, 02:51 PM
Globally the peak of the distribution is located in the Balkans where it is thought to have originated. This site (http://www.dnaancestry.ae/Y-DNA-Haplogroup-J.php) claims it's concentrated highest in Kosovar Albanians with around 17%.

There are theories that claim the haplogroup was spread from the Balkans through Alexander's troups which he recruited in Macedonia. This seems plausible for the spread in Europe, but the presence of J2b2 in India seems to predate this events.

Has anybody more information? :)

J-M241
Age estimates for haplogroup M241:
India and Nepal 20.1 ± 6 ky; Turkey 9.1 ± 2 ky; Italy/Apulia 9.1 ± 4 ky;
Bulgaria/Center 7.8 ± 3 ky; Greece 2.7 ± 1 2 ky
Albania 4.0 ± 2 ky; Gheg Shqiptars in R Macedonia , brothers of Kosovar Albanians 2.1± 1 ky;
Karachanak 2013-Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians New Clues about Their Ancestry

Dr_McNinja
08-07-2014, 11:23 AM
Tested negative for Y958, now just waiting on Z2437.

The total SNP list from YSEQ so far is:


CTS9192- FGC9538- M4874- Z2443-, FGC6701-, Z2432+, Z2433+, M6354- Y958-

Dr_McNinja
08-14-2014, 02:02 AM
I tested negative ("C-") at YSEQ for Z2437. So that makes:


CTS9192- FGC9538- M4874- Z2443-, FGC6701-, Z2432+, Z2433+, M6354- Y958-, Z2437-


Here's the tree again:

http://i.imgur.com/fKy0P5y.png

So I guess until I take Big Y or a similar test, I am J-Z2433*. There aren't any others listed for that at Yfull: http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

EDIT: Added myself on the tree: http://i.imgur.com/JmkxCkZ.png

rokousa
08-14-2014, 06:47 AM
The distribution in Anatolia is linked to Phrygian Settlements. My paternal line is from Sangarius, modern-day Sakarya, it's where the home of the Phrygians was located.

Globally the peak of the distribution is located in the Balkans where it is thought to have originated. This site (http://www.dnaancestry.ae/Y-DNA-Haplogroup-J.php) claims it's concentrated highest in Kosovar Albanians with around 17%.

There are theories that claim the haplogroup was spread from the Balkans through Alexander's troups which he recruited in Macedonia. This seems plausible for the spread in Europe, but the presence of J2b2 in India seems to predate this events.

Has anybody more information? :)

second, Macedonian language is IE language..
third, the J2a-M410 populations may have been speaking a non-Indo-European language with affinities to the Hattic language of central Anatolia (Nichols 2007).
King 2008-Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic

Boattini 2011-Linking Italy and the Balkans. A Y-chromosome perspective from the Arbereshe of Calabria

BakodiP
09-03-2014, 05:26 PM
J-M241
Age estimates for haplogroup M241:
India and Nepal 20.1 ± 6 ky; Turkey 9.1 ± 2 ky; Italy/Apulia 9.1 ± 4 ky;
Bulgaria/Center 7.8 ± 3 ky; Greece 2.7 ± 1 2 ky
Albania 4.0 ± 2 ky; Gheg Shqiptars in R Macedonia , brothers of Kosovar Albanians 2.1± 1 ky;
Karachanak 2013-Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians New Clues about Their Ancestry



I don't really get this age estimate thing. In India there live 1 billion people or more. Since there is a so extreme number for mutation doesn't it effects the probability of a false prediction?

I'm J2b* M241- M205- myself. I was tested negative for CTS494 and Z1825 http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M102/ , meaning my clade is older or as old as M205 and M241. Or I'm like J2b* with no clades. In FTDNA projects the majority of J2b* M205- M241- people is Jewish. There are some Armenians (my genetic cousins among them) and a few guys from the Anglo-Saxon world. There are one single person from Turkey, Qatar, Bulgaria and Ukraine. I'm from Hungary, but the overwhelming majority of Hungarian J2b are J2b2, and my genetic connection with Armenian J2b* people presumes an Armenian origin. So I really think the origins of J2b comes back to the Fertile Crescent.

kenji.aryan
09-12-2014, 07:38 PM
I recently got tested with 23andme and i got J2B2* in my paternal line and i'm from south-asia.

Dr_McNinja
09-13-2014, 01:05 AM
I recently got tested with 23andme and i got J2B2* in my paternal line and i'm from south-asia.Cool, welcome to the forum :)

If you're interesting in running any further tests, YSEQ.net offers individual SNP testing for the South Asian J2b2* line. See this diagram:

http://i.imgur.com/JmkxCkZ.png

kenji.aryan
09-13-2014, 03:17 PM
Cool, welcome to the forum :)

If you're interesting in running any further tests, YSEQ.net offers individual SNP testing for the South Asian J2b2* line. See this diagram:

http://i.imgur.com/JmkxCkZ.png

Thanx bro :)

and how much does it cost for further testing?

Dr_McNinja
09-13-2014, 05:51 PM
Thanx bro :)

and how much does it cost for further testing?It's $35 per SNP at YSEQ.net.

If you are interested, I'd recommend testing Z2433 first. That way, if it's positive, you saved yourself the trouble and money of testing Z2432, and if it's negative, you only have to test for one more, Z2432.

If it's positive, you can then try to test for Z2437 and/or Y958. If they're positive, you kind of know which branch you're on without testing further, and if negative, you know you're J-Z2433* like me.

I took a Full Genomes Y Prime test so if there are other SNPs below Z2433, we'll find out in a few months and then YSEQ.net can add tests for those specific ones, maybe you'll be in the same line as me.

Dr_McNinja
12-28-2014, 09:39 PM
There's a South Asian J-Z636 (well under the L283 line) on Geno 2.0


J-Z636 anilsingh_kec My Maternal and Paternal ancestors are from Indo-Nepal-Tibet border. Long time ago Rajput people from Rajastan (north-western India) migrated to Kumaon region and then inter-mingled with Nepali people there. Rajputs of north-western India migrated from Iran and Central-AsiaInterestingly he's the only one labeled J-Z636 on all of Geno 2.0 instead of the more common J-Z1043 to which it is parallel.

He is M35b2 maternal.

Geno 2.0 tree: http://j2-m172.info/info/y-dna-tests/genographic-project-j2-haplogroups-snps/

kenji.aryan
01-15-2015, 02:10 AM
del..........

BakodiP
01-15-2015, 02:38 PM
I've just ordered Z1827 from FTDNA. Previously I was tested Z1825 negative with YSEQ. It would be extremly interesting if I would be negative for Z1827 too...

Huntergatherer1066
01-15-2015, 11:38 PM
I've just ordered Z1827 from FTDNA. Previously I was tested Z1825 negative with YSEQ. It would be extremly interesting if I would be negative for Z1827 too...

Geno 2.0 testing discovered a new branch downstream of M102 that is on the FTDNA tree now, it is J-CTS2468. If your Z1825 test is negative you might consider testing that.

JaG
01-16-2015, 09:52 PM
Geno 2.0 testing discovered a new branch downstream of M102 that is on the FTDNA tree now, it is J-CTS2468.
AFAIK no CTS2468 result (positive or negative) has been reported by FTDNA so far. CTS2468 could easily be one of many phantom SNPs by Geno 2.0

BakodiP
01-17-2015, 10:38 AM
Geno 2.0 testing discovered a new branch downstream of M102 that is on the FTDNA tree now, it is J-CTS2468. If your Z1825 test is negative you might consider testing that.

I actually wanted to order that also, since it's listed on the HaploTree but it's not possible. When I want to put it in the basket it says 'error'.

JaG
01-17-2015, 11:12 AM
Finally a good error by FTDNA/Geno 2.0. The more the better.

VinceT
01-18-2015, 06:32 AM
My uncles' kit (FTDNA# 181776) has now returned a Z8429+ result, after FTDNA corrected his Z1043 & Z1048 results to positive from negative.

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 04:21 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

Smaller tree: http://i.imgur.com/JmkxCkZ.png

I tested negative for Y958 with YSEQ but positive for Z2433 (and negative for Z2437).

My FGC Y Prime results came in and it looks like I may be part of the Y958 branch.

Here's the full listing of SNPs under the J-Y958 branch:


Z8334 * Y987 * Y994 * Y988 * Y1006 * Y1007 * Y981 * Y993 * Y997 * Z8298 * Z8300 * Z8287 * Z8296 * Y978 * Z8285 * Z8294 * Z8319/S20796 * Y982 * Z8302 * Z8308 * Z8309 * Z8312 * Z8324 * Z8325 * Z8331 * Z8332 * Z8333 * Z8288 * Z8290 * Z8307 * Z8316 * Z8320 * Z8323 * Y958 * Y960 * Z8292 * Z8304 * Z8310 * Z8314 * Z8317 * Z8327 * Z8289 * Z8295 * Z8313 * Z8297 * Z8321 * Z8336 * Z8311 * Z8286 * Z8291 * Y974 * Z8318 * Z8305 * Z8306 * Y1011 * Y996 * Y973 * Z8322 * Z8301 * Z8299 * Z8337 * Z8303 * Z8284 * Y1012 * Z8330 * Z8315 * Y2159.1/Y2159.2 * Z8335 * Z8328 * Y967 * Z8326

Here are the matches I got in my FGC list from that group:


Y988+
Z8296+ (*)
Y978+
Z8294+ (*)
Z8308+
Z8331+ (*)
Z8332+
Z8307+ (**)
Z8289+
Y1011+
Z8337+
Z8330+ (*)
Z8315+ (*)
Z8335+
Y967+ (**)* and ** indicate reliability (the more asterisks the less reliable I take it).

Do you suppose YSEQ got an incorrect result and I am J-Y958 or do I only partially match the SNP list on this branch? I guess Yfull can check the BAM file for negative matches with the full SNP list... I already ordered their analysis.

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 04:39 PM
Test
#Y-haplogroup match analysis based on FGC yKNOT utility
#uses ISOGG tree: http://www.isogg.org/tree/index.html

================================================== ==========

Match #1: J-M241
*Extras: V161.1+, V190+, F1345*, Z1842+, M118+, M236+, P9.2+, L584*, L1327+, P80+, Z346*, L729+, IMS-JST029149+, CTS616+, IMS-JST022457+, P266+, V203*
J2b2
|Matches: M241+
|____J2b
|Matches: L282+, M12+, M102+, M221+, M314+
|____J2
|Matches: M172+, L228+
|____J
|Matches: L134+, M304+, P209+
|*No-calls: 12f2.1?, S6?, S34?, S35?
|____IJ
|Matches: P125+, P123+, P124+, P127+, P129+, S22+
|*No-calls: P126?, S2?
|____IJK
|Matches: L15+, L16+
|____F
|Matches: L132.1+, M89+, P137+, M235+, P14+, P133+, P134+, P135+, P136+, P138+, P139+, P140+, P141+, P142+, P145+, P146+, P148+, P149+, P151+, P157+, P158+, P159+, P160+, P161+, P163+, P166+, P187+, P316+
|____CF
|Matches: P143+
|____CT
|Matches: M168+, M294+, P9.1+
|____BT
|Matches: V31+, L418+, L438+, L440+, L604+, L957+, L962+, L969+, L970+, L977+, L1060+, L1061+, PF302+, M42+, M94+, M299+, P97+, V59+, V64+, V102+, V187+, V202+, V235+
|*No-calls: L971?, M91?, M139?, SPage65.1?, V29?
|____A1b
|**Mismatches: P108- (exp. +), V221- (exp. +)
|____A1
|Matches: L985+, L989+, L1002+, L1004+, L1009+, L1013+, L1053+, L1112+, V161.2+, V171+, V174+, V238+, V241+, V250+
|*No-calls: L986?, L1003?, L1005?, L1084?, L1153?, V168?
|**Mismatches: P305- (exp. +)
|____A0-T
|Matches: L1085+, L1089+, L1090+, L1093+, L1095+, L1098+, L1101+, L1105+, L1116+, L1118+, L1120+, L1121+, L1123+, L1124+, L1125+, L1127+, L1128+, L1129+, L1130+, L1132+, L1135+, L1136+, L1137+, L1142+, L1143+, L1145+, L1150+, L1155+, L1235+
|*No-calls: AF3?, L1099?
|____Root

parasar
02-11-2015, 04:56 PM
Of the two it looks like that YSEQ is in error as M958+ is consistent with South Asian J2b. YFull should be able to confirm.
Did YSEQ report G at at that location?

parasar
02-11-2015, 05:02 PM
How many high quality SNPs are you seeing under Z2432?

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 05:15 PM
YSEQ:


479 CTS9192 ChrY 18739828 18739828 G-
479 FGC6701 ChrY 22896190 22896190 G-
479 FGC6701 ChrY 22896190 22896190 G-
479 FGC9538 ChrY 18740116 18740116 A-
479 M4874 ChrY 18739828 18739828 G-
479 M6354 ChrY 6690929 6690929 G-
479 M6354 ChrY 6690929 6690929 G-
479 Y958 ChrY 6690892 6690892 G-
479 Y958 ChrY 6690892 6690892 G-
479 Z2432 ChrY 7508082 7508082 T+
479 Z2433 ChrY 7600553 7600553 T+
479 Z2437 ChrY 22895947 22895947 C-
479 Z2443 ChrY 18740129 18740129 G-

Don't know how to tell if the SNPs are in order or not, but here's the list under Z2432:


Z2432+
Z8276+
Y1013+
ZS308+
Y952+
Z2449+
Y961+
Z8277+
Z8281+
Z2434+
Z8272+
Z2433+
Z16216+; FGC28798+
Z8337+
Z8296+
Y1011+
Z8331+
FGC31635+
Z8330+
Z8315+
Z8294+
Z8335+
Z8332+
Z8289+
Y978+
Y988+
Z8308+
SK1836+; FGC10624+
I can e-mail you the interpretation files for the SNPs if you wanna take a look

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 05:19 PM
62 high reliability Private SNPs found

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 05:20 PM
YSEQ Y958 page: http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=2036&osCsid=de3e60079d9a37114b8260ff40072012

parasar
02-11-2015, 06:24 PM
62 high reliability Private SNPs found

So 28+62= 90.
This should give an idea of the separation of the South Asian line.
You could use 151 years per SNP.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?828-STR-Wars-GDs-TMRCA-estimates-Variance-Mutation-Rates-amp-SNP-counting&p=40880&viewfull=1#post40880

FGC Corp
02-11-2015, 06:29 PM
So 28+62= 90.
This should give an idea of the separation of the South Asian line.
You could use 151 years per SNP.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?828-STR-Wars-GDs-TMRCA-estimates-Variance-Mutation-Rates-amp-SNP-counting&p=40880&viewfull=1#post40880

FGC= 80 -90 years per SNP. That's the Big Y figure, i.e. 151 years per SNP.

Dr_McNinja
02-11-2015, 06:42 PM
These are the only two SNPs which differ in the FGC list between me and the three other J-Y958 individuals underneath Z2432:


6105265 A C Z16216+; FGC28798+
8491787 G A SK1836+; FGC10624+ (Y2740)The other three J-Y958 individuals are - for these two.

There are no private SNPs in common with them either. I wonder what that means? Is that normal?

So if it's ~85 years per SNP, J-M241 split into European J-M241 (J-L283) around ~9860 years ago, and South Asian J-M241 is ~7650 years old and my branch of J-Y958 diverged from other J-Y958 around ~5580 years ago? J-Z2437 and J-Y958 split around ~6630 years ago.

parasar
02-11-2015, 07:08 PM
FGC= 80 -90 years per SNP. That's the Big Y figure, i.e. 151 years per SNP.

I was not sure about Y Prime's coverage. I think Big Y is a little over 10 million Mb and FGC Full was about 17 million or so.

Dr_McNinja
02-13-2015, 05:55 AM
Astrid from YSEQ:


Thanks for contacting us.
We've checked the raw data of your Y958 run. The quality of the sequence is very good. The allele call is a G. That means you're ancestral for this marker (Y958-).

http://i.imgur.com/fpE0Lqq.png

Q = query, YSEQ ID 479
S = source



As you've seen in YFull's J2b tree http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2432/ there are 70 markers at the same branch as Y958. That doesn't mean that they all have to be phyloequivalent. We just don't know yet. When more people have been tested for these 70 markers the J-Z2433 community will learn if some of them are downstream of Y958, on the same level or even upstream of it. YFull's tree is an experimental Y tree which will change with the latest findings.

Y997 and Z8319/S20796 are two of the 70 SNPs which are currently available at YSEQ. http://www.yseq.net/advanced_search_result.php?keywords=Y997+or+Z8319
Have you been tested for these two? It would be interesting to see if you're positive for them.Interesting. I guess I'll wait to see what Yfull makes of it first.

Dr_McNinja
02-13-2015, 11:56 AM
Ok so I'm likely NOT Y958. Yfull has a nifty browsing tool:

Y958:

http://i.imgur.com/T15HxGq.png

Y997:

http://i.imgur.com/SWCRFQr.png

Z8319:

http://i.imgur.com/Dwnhocl.png

Looks like YSEQ was right.

Dr_McNinja
02-13-2015, 12:03 PM
Here are some of the SNPs at J-Y958 level I was positive for:

http://imgur.com/a/046wL (Y978, Y988, Z8308, Z8337).

Yeah, the Y958- result was as good as it gets even with the FGC data. Maybe FGC will alter the tree.

Also, I'm definitely Y2740+ and Z16216+/FGC28798+ too (the two I had which the Y958 individuals did not)).

Dr_McNinja
02-20-2015, 12:11 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/J2/

Yfull put me under J-Z2433 with label 'Analysis in Progress...'. Estimated date for analysis is 3/13.

Dr_McNinja
02-23-2015, 08:47 PM
Yfull now says:

L283: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 9000 ybp
--Z600: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp

Z2432: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
--Z2433: formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp

parasar
02-24-2015, 03:50 PM
Yfull now says:

L283: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 9000 ybp
--Z600: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 5200 ybp

Z2432: formed 9000 ybp, TMRCA 6100 ybp
--Z2433: formed 6100 ybp, TMRCA 5000 ybp

So FGC Y Prime looks to be ~100years/SNP.
Do you know if there is any crossover for Z2423 and L283 between South Asia and Europe?

Dr_McNinja
02-25-2015, 02:08 AM
So FGC Y Prime looks to be ~100years/SNP.
Do you know if there is any crossover for Z2423 and L283 between South Asia and Europe?
Couldn't find any. There was one L283 J-M241 Indian user (Rajput I think) at NatGeo I mentioned earlier but he's way down the L283 tree in one of the European lines so my guess is he had a European paternal ancestor.

We still have to see whether Middle Eastern and Central Asian J2b2-M241 is L283 or Z2432.

I don't think we've found any J2b2-M241 that hasn't been either L283 or Z2432 which is interesting.

Dr_McNinja
02-25-2015, 09:13 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

They updated the tree.

Z2432: formed 9700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp
Z2433: formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp
My clade: formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 5600 ybp

They made a mistake with the naming and will rename my parent clade to something else (and rename J-Y1006 back to J-Y958).

As soon as they decide which SNP, I'll request the SNP to be added at YSEQ.

Parasar: Do you think J-Y954 and J-Y951 might be indicative of some kind of east to west migratory event <5000kya? I wonder what HG04210's SNP list looks like and how many more are from that line. J-L283 also had two root branches of J-Z600 and J-YP29 but the latter has no individuals listed under it.

parasar
02-25-2015, 09:44 PM
http://yfull.com/tree/J-M241/

They updated the tree.

Z2432: formed 9700 ybp, TMRCA 7200 ybp
Z2433: formed 7200 ybp, TMRCA 6200 ybp
My clade: formed 6200 ybp, TMRCA 5600 ybp

They made a mistake with the naming and will rename my parent clade to something else (and rename J-Y1006 back to J-Y958).

As soon as they decide which SNP, I'll request the SNP to be added at YSEQ.

Parasar: Do you think J-Y954 and J-Y951 might be indicative of some kind of east to west migratory event <5000kya? I wonder what HG04210's SNP list looks like and how many more are from that line. J-L283 also had two root branches of J-Z600 and J-YP29 but the latter has no individuals listed under it.

Possible - an internal back and forth within South Asia for J. Though I still think that overall Y-J is one of the Basal (autosomal) Y lines. It can't be a coincidence that we are seeing J, G, H both in W. Eurasian regions and in South Asia. Y-I remains the puzzle due to its complete absence in India. I had posted on another thread that Y-I was Basal too and not WHG, but this has been difficult to figure out, and is not borne out from the Mesolithic evidence. As to where Basal originated - anywhere from South Asia to Europe/N. Africa is possible.

J Man
02-25-2015, 10:58 PM
Possible - an internal back and forth within South Asia for J. Though I still think that overall Y-J is one of the Basal (autosomal) Y lines. It can't be a coincidence that we are seeing J, G, H both in W. Eurasian regions and in South Asia. Y-I remains the puzzle due to its complete absence in India. I had posted on another thread that Y-I was Basal too and not WHG, but this has been difficult to figure out, and is not borne out from the Mesolithic evidence. As to where Basal originated - anywhere from South Asia to Europe/N. Africa is possible.

I did not think that there is much G in South Asia.

Dr_McNinja
02-26-2015, 04:29 PM
There's plenty of G all across India, it's just more rare than J, H, or R.

Here's an updated South Asian J2b2-M241 tree: http://i.imgur.com/soXxFdg.png

newtoboard
02-27-2015, 12:38 AM
I know mos people have it the other way around but I think J2b is associated with the BMAC and J2s with the IVC.

Dr_McNinja
03-02-2015, 05:25 PM
I know mos people have it the other way around but I think J2b is associated with the BMAC and J2s with the IVC.Why do you think that?

I'm wondering how many South Asians with J2 (J-M172) at 23andMe have tested with FGC or BigY and what subclade they've fallen under at YFull.

BakodiP
03-03-2015, 06:07 AM
I've been found to be Z1827+ ;) Two more SNPs avaliable!

Dr_McNinja
03-03-2015, 02:30 PM
I've been found to be Z1827+ ;) Two more SNPs avaliable!That would put you under J-Z1825 on this tree, correct?

http://yfull.com/tree/J2/

Have you seen anyone else who is similar? They don't have any J-Z1825* individuals. A FGC test for you would be really enlightening.

Which SNPs are you testing next? Something at J-Z2453?

parasar
03-03-2015, 02:57 PM
I've been found to be Z1827+ ;) Two more SNPs avaliable!

Are you M241- and Z2432- ?
Thanks

BakodiP
03-03-2015, 05:22 PM
That would put you under J-Z1825 on this tree, correct?

http://yfull.com/tree/J2/

Have you seen anyone else who is similar? They don't have any J-Z1825* individuals. A FGC test for you would be really enlightening.

Which SNPs are you testing next? Something at J-Z2453?

The funny thing is I've been tested with YSEQ for Z1825 and came as negative, and Z1827 with FTDNA is positive...

My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
124 CTS494 ChrY 6795563 6795563 G-
124 S9474 ChrY 6795646 6795646 G-
124 Z1825 ChrY 4287872 4287872 C-

FGC is too expensive for me. I'm considering Z593 from FTDNA or PF2803.

@parasar: Yeah, I'm M241-, M205-.

Dr_McNinja
03-03-2015, 05:58 PM
The funny thing is I've been tested with YSEQ for Z1825 and came as negative, and Z1827 with FTDNA is positive...

My Allele Results
SampleID Marker+ Chr Start End Allele
124 CTS494 ChrY 6795563 6795563 G-
124 S9474 ChrY 6795646 6795646 G-
124 Z1825 ChrY 4287872 4287872 C-

FGC is too expensive for me. I'm considering Z593 from FTDNA or PF2803.

@parasar: Yeah, I'm M241-, M205-.
That means you're a new clade downstream of Z1827 and upstream of Z1825 (and M241). I'd just hold off on tests and save money, even if it takes a while, until the Y Prime or Big Y is lowered in price and you can afford it. Might take a year or two but would be worth it because your line is still new and probably chock full of new SNPs.

I wound up spending like $200-$300 on individual SNPs and Y-STR testing anyway before I forced myself to stop and just wait until I saved enough for an FGC test. Probably more actually because I had also purchased Geno 2.0 at first and that was $159. You get the full STR results with the next generation tests as well. The Y Prime test I got from FGC was less than $600.

Dr_McNinja
03-10-2015, 05:30 PM
YSEQ added Y978: http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?products_id=10659

Updated tree: http://i.imgur.com/OvSChez.png

Dr_McNinja
03-16-2015, 12:53 PM
According to this study:

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Figures.pdf

There's possibly another clade of J2b2* in Malay defined by SNP "L1460" (M7586 is at same location according to ISOGG). It's not present in L283 or Z2432 subclades.

J Man
03-16-2015, 01:17 PM
According to this study:

http://genome.cshlp.org/content/suppl/2015/02/18/gr.186684.114.DC1/Supplemental_Figures.pdf

There's possibly another clade of J2b2* in Malay defined by SNP "L1460" (M7586 is at same location according to ISOGG). It's not present in L283 or Z2432 subclades.

J2b has been found among the Malay people? If so that is quite interesting. Has any J2b been found among the Vedda people of Sri Lanka do you know? I also see a J2a5 (M67?) sample from the Malay people in the link you gave. Maybe these come from admixture with South Asians or Europeans? I know that J2a-M67 is most common among peoples from the Caucasus.

Tricia
03-23-2015, 12:00 AM
Hi :)

I wanted to know about my maternal grandfather's DNA so asked his brother's son if he would provide a DNA sample. He agreed and the result was J2b2. The earliest male ancestor whom I have for this line was born in Worcester, England, in or around 1813.

I also had the Family Finder autosomal test carried out on the sample and the Ethnic Origin results were:

British Isles: 97%
Scandinavia: 3%

The surname is very English: Hampton.

Huntergatherer1066
03-23-2015, 12:13 AM
Hi :)

I wanted to know about my maternal grandfather's DNA so asked his brother's son if he would provide a DNA sample. He agreed and the result was J2b2. The earliest male ancestor whom I have for this line was born in Worcester, England, in or around 1813.

I also had the Family Finder autosomal test carried out on the sample and the Ethnic Origin results were:

British Isles: 97%
Scandinavia: 3%

The surname is very English: Hampton.

That is very interesting. What does he have as far as Y-DNA matches?

Tricia
03-23-2015, 02:20 PM
Hi :)

Re Hampton.

We had the 37 marker FTDNA test carried out on the sample and have been given only 8 matches, all with a genetic distance of 4.

BakodiP
03-23-2015, 03:04 PM
Hi :)

Re Hampton.

We had the 37 marker FTDNA test carried out on the sample and have been given only 8 matches, all with a genetic distance of 4.

'Only 8'? Come on! It's a lot considering J2b! ;)

Huntergatherer1066
03-23-2015, 10:53 PM
Hi :)

Re Hampton.

We had the 37 marker FTDNA test carried out on the sample and have been given only 8 matches, all with a genetic distance of 4.

What kinds of surnames are showing up?

Trojet
04-13-2015, 12:18 AM
I finally got my 37 marker results from ftdna 2 days ago. I already knew I am j2b2-m241 from testing at 23andme. I joined the j2 group and the administrator grouped me with j2b-m241>l283>z590? (kit 398275).
I guess I need to check the z590 to be sure, as well as need to check the SNPs downstream of z590 to find my terminal SNP.
As far as matches go, I have 11 matches at 25 markers at GD of 2, and at 37 markers only one holds up at GD of 4.
I would like to do a big y test, but at this point it's too expensive, so will wait and see what ftdna or yseq have to offer for a deep clade test to find my subclade.

VinceT
04-13-2015, 12:35 AM
I finally got my 37 marker results from ftdna 2 days ago. I already knew I am j2b2-m241 from testing at 23andme. I joined the j2 group and the administrator grouped me with j2b-m241>l283>z590? (kit 398275).
I guess I need to check the z590 to be sure, as well as need to check the SNPs downstream of z590 to find my terminal SNP.
As far as matches go, I have 11 matches at 25 markers at GD of 2, and at 37 markers only one holds up at GD of 4.
I would like to do a big y test, but at this point it's too expensive, so will wait and see what ftdna or yseq have to offer for a deep clade test to find my subclade.

Funny, I don't see your kit # listed yet. You should also join the J2b-M102 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx

Trojet
04-13-2015, 12:39 AM
Funny, I don't see your kit # listed yet. You should also join the J2b-M102 project at https://www.familytreedna.com/public/m102/default.aspx

It's on page 5 out of 6 on j2-m172. And yes I did join J2b-M102, but I'm ungrouped there as of last time I checked.

Dr_McNinja
04-13-2015, 12:45 AM
I finally got my 37 marker results from ftdna 2 days ago. I already knew I am j2b2-m241 from testing at 23andme. I joined the j2 group and the administrator grouped me with j2b-m241>l283>z590? (kit 398275).
I guess I need to check the z590 to be sure, as well as need to check the SNPs downstream of z590 to find my terminal SNP.
As far as matches go, I have 11 matches at 25 markers at GD of 2, and at 37 markers only one holds up at GD of 4.
I would like to do a big y test, but at this point it's too expensive, so will wait and see what ftdna or yseq have to offer for a deep clade test to find my subclade.

I'd see if Yseq still has their sale going on, then check YFull's tree and see which ones to order.

VinceT
04-13-2015, 12:52 AM
It's on page 5 out of 6 on j2-m172. And yes I did join J2b-M102, but I'm ungrouped there as of last time I checked.
Nope, I'm not seeing kit 398275 in either project. weird.

Trojet
04-13-2015, 12:56 AM
Nope, I'm not seeing kit 398275 in either project. weird.

You know what, you are right. I noticed that after logging out of my ftdna account, I can't see my kit in the group. I'm sure I need to change some privacy settings so that my info is viewed in public. Will try to fix that.

Trojet
04-13-2015, 01:26 AM
I'd see if Yseq still has their sale going on, then check YFull's tree and see which ones to order.

I did check yseq. For the l283 branch as of now, they do offer z590, but no z584 and z638 which are downstream of z590. And then they do offer z1296, z1297, z639 which are downstream of both z584 and z638. I guess I could order the last 3 as well as z590 and in case the last 3 are negative (assuming z590 comes as positive) then I know I belong to either z584 or z638 which for some reason they don't offer yet.

Trojet
04-13-2015, 01:54 AM
Nope, I'm not seeing kit 398275 in either project. weird.

Alright, now you should be able to see it :)

VinceT
04-13-2015, 03:09 AM
Alright, now you should be able to see it :)

Thanks! I can see that you have a reasonably close match with kit 107257 (31/37) who had tested Z1296+ Z1297- Z1298-.

You also have a 31/37 match with kit N49023 who also tested Z1296+.

You should start with Z1296 and Z1297 and go from there, i.e. hold off for Big Y or Full Genomes Corp (https://www.fullgenomes.com/) if Z1297 is a bust.

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z597/

Trojet
04-13-2015, 04:17 PM
^Thanks. It also looks like my kit (389275) and kit number N112484 are close too. He is Albanian like me and not too far from my area and he is z638+ but z1296-

J Man
04-16-2015, 09:21 PM
^Thanks. It also looks like my kit (389275) and kit number N112484 are close too. He is Albanian like me and not too far from my area and he is z638+ but z1296-

Are you Gheg Albanian from Macedonia?

Trojet
04-17-2015, 12:54 AM
Are you Gheg Albanian from Macedonia?

Yes :)

Oops, just realized I had made a typo about my kit on ftdna, it's supposed to be 398275 as originally stated.

BTW, I did order some SNPs from Yseq. Will post the results here when I get them.

paulgill
04-25-2015, 06:51 AM
There's plenty of G all across India, it's just more rare than J, H, or R.

Here's an updated South Asian J2b2-M241 tree: http://i.imgur.com/soXxFdg.pngPosted on another thread by Megalophias

Here, have a data dump (I don't know much of anything about J):

Turko-Mongolic minorities in NW China - 0.6% J(xJ2) and 1.7% J2 in Qinghai + Gansu (of 179 men); 1.5% J(xJ2) and 10.6% J2 in Xinjiang (of 274 men).

Gansu Han Chinese - 1% (2/221) J2a*-M410(xJ2a1a-M322, J2a1b-M67, J2a1d-M319, J2a1h1-M158)

Uyghurs from Xinjiang - 14% (27/187) - 1/187 J*, 1/187 J1, 1/187 J2a1b, 20/187 J2a* (as above), 3/187 J2b*(xJ2b1-M205, J2b2-M241), 1/187 J2b2

Ningxia Hui (NW Chinese Muslims) 13% (8/62) J - 1/62 J1, 2/62 J2a1b, 5/62 J2a*

Mongolians - 4% J (7/160) - 2/160 J1a2b-Page8, 2/160 J2a*(xJ2a1-Page55), 1/160 J2a1*(xJ2a1a, J2a1b, J2a1h), 1/160 J2a1b*(xJ2a1b-M92), 1/160 J2a1h-M530

Generally J is found at low to very low frequencies across northern China, Tibet, and Siberia. Seems like rather a mixed bag of subclades.

Dr_McNinja
04-26-2015, 10:40 PM
That's interesting. I'm guessing J spread far and wide with farming during the early neolithic period. I think I would expect some significant J admixture in places like BMAC. I wonder where those 3 xM205/xM241 J2b* samples from Uyghurs would fall on the tree. Or are they J2b2-M241? I couldn't tell because it also says 1 was J2b2 after that.

paulgill
04-27-2015, 12:34 AM
There's plenty of G all across India, it's just more rare than J, H, or R.

Here's an updated South Asian J2b2-M241 tree: http://i.imgur.com/soXxFdg.png


That's interesting. I'm guessing J spread far and wide with farming during the early neolithic period. I think I would expect some significant J admixture in places like BMAC. I wonder where those 3 xM205/xM241 J2b* samples from Uyghurs would fall on the tree. Or are they J2b2-M241? I couldn't tell because it also says 1 was J2b2 after that.This is probably where your Jatt roots are. I have 1gd match at 12 STRs who is an Uyghur now settled in Turkey. Though for now he is placed under J1-L862, he is not tested for that, I tried to get him tested at Yseq but he was not willing to provide the sample as he is on army duty, it is difficult to keep in touch him. What is special about him is that he comes from "Yetis" family, it may simply be a Jatt family that somehow ended up among the Uyghurs.

kenji.aryan
05-10-2015, 06:08 AM
Some guy created this sheet from Roberts H.A Sanders.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Kfvde5gHQ0EVV9lLVnjMLgtyOgLJQPZdywqyu2-idSc/edit#gid=0

kenji.aryan
05-11-2015, 05:42 AM
https://word.office.live.com/wv/WordView.aspx?FBsrc=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com %2Fattachments%2Ffile_preview.php%3Fid%3D831237900 284571%26time%3D1431322258%26metadata&access_token=1009794397%3AAVL5HVn9da_7rGb9E-ebs0ZaDDOdKHFg5PPxiyZ3yjUoTA&title=Y-DNA+Haplogroup+J2-M172%2C+quotes+%26+links.docx

Trojet
05-15-2015, 09:47 PM
I ordered Z638, Z1296, and Z631 from Yseq. I got the results today except for Z1296 which is still processing. This is the results they posted:

2306 A4621 ChrY 16850832 16850832 T-
2306 CTS219 ChrY 2819037 2819037 G-
2306 CTS220 ChrY 2819254 2819254 G-
2306 CTS6364 ChrY 16850779 16850779 A-
2306 L1472 ChrY 16850846 16850846 A-
2306 M6060 ChrY 2818915 2818915 G-
2306 PH59 ChrY 2819238 2819238 A-
2306 SK1340 ChrY 2819286 2819286 A-
2306 SK641 ChrY 2819014 2819014 A-
2306 SK985 ChrY 2819353 2819353 C-
2306 Y11869 ChrY 16851029 16851029 C-
2306 Y12246 ChrY 2819309 2819309 A-
2306 YP594 ChrY 2819088 2819088 C-
2306 Z19084 ChrY 16850831 16850831 A-
2306 Z2336 ChrY 16850779 16850779 A-
2306 Z631 ChrY 2819161 2819161 G-
2306 Z638 ChrY 16851019 16851019 C+

I assume I am positive for Z638 whic says C+, and negative for Z631 which says G-. Am I right, and what do C+ or G- mean? And the other tested SNP which all have - (negative) and I didn't order, are they all at the same level as Z631 for which I guess I'm negative? Thanks in advance.

Dr_McNinja
05-16-2015, 02:02 AM
I ordered Z638, Z1296, and Z631 from Yseq. I got the results today except for Z1296 which is still processing. This is the results they posted:

2306 A4621 ChrY 16850832 16850832 T-
2306 CTS219 ChrY 2819037 2819037 G-
2306 CTS220 ChrY 2819254 2819254 G-
2306 CTS6364 ChrY 16850779 16850779 A-
2306 L1472 ChrY 16850846 16850846 A-
2306 M6060 ChrY 2818915 2818915 G-
2306 PH59 ChrY 2819238 2819238 A-
2306 SK1340 ChrY 2819286 2819286 A-
2306 SK641 ChrY 2819014 2819014 A-
2306 SK985 ChrY 2819353 2819353 C-
2306 Y11869 ChrY 16851029 16851029 C-
2306 Y12246 ChrY 2819309 2819309 A-
2306 YP594 ChrY 2819088 2819088 C-
2306 Z19084 ChrY 16850831 16850831 A-
2306 Z2336 ChrY 16850779 16850779 A-
2306 Z631 ChrY 2819161 2819161 G-
2306 Z638 ChrY 16851019 16851019 C+

I assume I am positive for Z638 whic says C+, and negative for Z631 which says G-. Am I right, and what do C+ or G- mean? And the other tested SNP which all have - (negative) and I didn't order, are they all at the same level as Z631 for which I guess I'm negative? Thanks in advance.

Yes, that would mean you're Z638+

Sometimes some SNPs overlap or are in the same area so they post those results too. You can see them on ISOGG's Ybrowse.

Trojet
05-16-2015, 02:52 AM
Yes, that would mean you're Z638+

Sometimes some SNPs overlap or are in the same area so they post those results too. You can see them on ISOGG's Ybrowse.

And just to confirm for Z631 G- (negative) right?

Dr_McNinja
05-16-2015, 04:11 PM
And just to confirm for Z631 G- (negative) right?

Yes, that's right

VinceT
05-16-2015, 11:41 PM
A Big Y test for my uncle was recently completed in the breathtakingly brief 4-week span from order batching to completion. His BAM data is currently being readied by FTDNA for download early next week, but I've started to look at a BAM file for his closest Big Y match. I've observed a few things already:

- Read lengths seem to be approximately 165 bases long, which is a bit surprising since earlier Big Y BAM files I was able to examine last year, consisted of 100 base reads.
- Big Y results are now being integrated into FTDNA's haplotree.
- FTDNA's haplotree isn't quite correct (which is not at all surprising - see screen capture attached).
- Z1043 and Z1048 are in a problematic region that the Arpeggi assembler has difficulty with, but then I had an inkling that something was a bit peculiar with this region when I first identified those SNPs back in 2011. Low quality scores for this region seems to indicate that even 165 base reads are not long enough for confident mapping, and that there is likely a highly similar region elsewhere on the Y-chromosome that has not yet been integrated into the human reference sequence. That Z1043 and Z1048 are within 70 bases of each other in the first place indicates a co-mutation, possibly from a recLOH -like event, where one segment outright replaced a similar looking segment elsewhere.

Dr_McNinja
05-19-2015, 08:39 PM
Eager to see which subclade he falls under.

Something which just occurred to me, after reading this study:


The Russian Journal of Genetic Genealogy (Русская версия): Том 6, №1, 2014 год
ISSN: 1920-2997 http://ru.rjgg.org © Все права защищены

The Tatar Progeny of the Golden Horde Mokhshi Ulus Population
At time of establishing
Moksha settlement in the Golden Horde,
the Tatars of J2b2 haplogroup may be considered
to be a group of relatives and belonged to
a single clan.
The both clusters, most probably, refer to
subclade J2b2-Z631, Z639. It is worth noting
here, that only one person (171415) from Bekhanids
Cluster was tested for the mentioned SNP
mutations. Another person from the second
cluster (182650) was tested for the above mentioned
mutation Z1296 forming the basis of the
before stated subclade J2b2a1 [5], which indirectly
confirms that both clusters belong to subclade
J2b2a1a1-Z631, Z639. It is also worth
noting here that three of 25 persons (182650,
262044, 264816) forming this group present
positive mutation Z1043. This mutation may be
common for two clusters and be lower than mutations
Z631 and Z639.This makes me wonder if Z638 or even Z597 if earlier (Z638-Z1296 if later) were spread from the Steppe.

Other Z600 subclades could have been spread from the near east via Anatolia/Balkans before then. Perhaps Y15058 as well.

Up till now I thought all J-M241 in Europe spread via farmers/sailors from the Near East to the Balkans in the neolithic.

Any thoughts?

Trojet
05-20-2015, 12:48 AM
Eager to see which subclade he falls under.

Something which just occurred to me, after reading this study:

This makes me wonder if Z638 or even Z597 if earlier (Z638-Z1296 if later) were spread from the Steppe.

Other Z600 subclades could have been spread from the near east via Anatolia/Balkans before then. Perhaps Y15058 as well.

Up till now I thought all J-M241 in Europe spread via farmers/sailors from the Near East to the Balkans in the neolithic.

Any thoughts?

From what I'm reading on that article, aren't they saying that those people belong to Z631 and Z1043 subclades? If I'm not mistaken then wouldn't it make sense to assume that those people migrated from the Balkans up north to those areas, since we have samples from the Balkans who are negative for Z631 and Z1043, I myself am one of them.

It is a mistery though on how and when J2b2 got to the Balkans and Europe.

parasar
05-20-2015, 01:30 AM
From what I'm reading on that article, aren't they saying that those people belong to Z631 and Z1043 subclades? If I'm not mistaken then wouldn't it make sense to assume that those people migrated from the Balkans up north to those areas, since we have samples from the Balkans who are negative for Z631 and Z1043, I myself am one of them.

It is a mistery though on how and when J2b2 got to the Balkans and Europe.



Eager to see which subclade he falls under.

Something which just occurred to me, after reading this study:

This makes me wonder if Z638 or even Z597 if earlier (Z638-Z1296 if later) were spread from the Steppe.

Other Z600 subclades could have been spread from the near east via Anatolia/Balkans before then. Perhaps Y15058 as well.

Up till now I thought all J-M241 in Europe spread via farmers/sailors from the Near East to the Balkans in the neolithic.

Any thoughts?

I think Trojet is correct. Especially since the Mokhshi are also show a type of L, and the ages for both seem to be recent.

I, J, L, T, H, G all seem to have some close connection. It almost looks like F travelled to SE Europe and split up there. I know it looks very odd to think of H as originally European!
And then Europe came to be dominated by that one branch - NOMSP - not initially there!!
http://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2015/03/13/gr.186684.114.abstract
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5cWLu_X84is/VQRecy3MHyI/AAAAAAAAJ_0/8fnpuYYQ_4Q/s1600/figure1.jpg

Dr_McNinja
05-20-2015, 01:44 AM
From what I'm reading on that article, aren't they saying that those people belong to Z631 and Z1043 subclades? If I'm not mistaken then wouldn't it make sense to assume that those people migrated from the Balkans up north to those areas, since we have samples from the Balkans who are negative for Z631 and Z1043, I myself am one of them.

It is a mistery though on how and when J2b2 got to the Balkans and Europe.

Yeah, it could have gone from the Balkans to the Steppe. I just thought it was possible that one strain got caught up with the Steppe peoples and spread back to Europe from there. I figured either it went north through the Caucasus early on, before their cousins migrated to Europe, or it left from Europe. The current theories put the migration after the divergence of strains so it implies a bunch of these divergent lines migrated together somehow. I'm not sure how true that is, so I do think it was in the Balkans since the Neolithic. It possibly spread to the Caucasus/Steppe around the same time, or at least that line did.

Trojet
05-20-2015, 01:55 AM
I think that Z600/Z590 could tell us if J2b2 entered Balkans/Europe in the Neolithic as supposeddly this formed 9k years ago according to yfull. And from what I have seen so far Z600/Z590 is virtually absent in Anatolia and the fertile crescent, while all the SNP in Europe are downstream Z600/Z590. If this SNP formed in Anatolia then we would expect to find it there too. Any thoughts on this... So maybe L283 formed somewhere in Western Anatolia and soon after most of its descendants migrated to the Balkans defined by SNP Z600/Z590...

Dr_McNinja
05-21-2015, 04:08 AM
I think that Z600/Z590 could tell us if J2b2 entered Balkans/Europe in the Neolithic as supposeddly this formed 9k years ago according to yfull. And from what I have seen so far Z600/Z590 is virtually absent in Anatolia and the fertile crescent, while all the SNP in Europe are downstream Z600/Z590. If this SNP formed in Anatolia then we would expect to find it there too. Any thoughts on this... So maybe L283 formed somewhere in Western Anatolia and soon after most of its descendants migrated to the Balkans defined by SNP Z600/Z590...We don't find Z2432 yet anywhere outside India. J2b2-M241 does have a very strange spread. It's assumed it formed in the northern Mideast based on J2b*/J2b1/J2a frequencies.

Trojet
05-21-2015, 11:39 AM
We don't find Z2432 yet anywhere outside India. J2b2-M241 does have a very strange spread. It's assumed it formed in the northern Mideast based on J2b*/J2b1/J2a frequencies.

I agree :) It looks like our brother clades suddenly split between L283 and Z2432 somewhere in mid east 9k years ago, without leaving any marks in the area. Interesting and mysterious.

In the case of Z2432 to me it looks like it immediately migrated to South Asia after the split 9k years ago, or the split could've happened closer to south Asia, and then L283 migrated suddenly to Anatolia by 8k years ago, then eventually soon after entered Balkans/Europe around 7k years ago. I think we will know more soon with more people being tested, but to me this would be the most logic hypothesis.

Dr_McNinja
05-22-2015, 02:11 PM
Here's a spreadsheet of STRs for non-European J2b2-M241:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qay3XTxfZijTFfy2c3E54625wqfPfMrPlvlTge_-ldA/edit#gid=0

In addition, I added four HGDP individuals (two Sindhis, a Burusho, and a Kalash). Going by the DYS617 values, none of these individuals are in my clade. I'm DYS617=10, and they're all 12 or 13 (including all European J2b2-M241).

The only DYS617=10 I found in HGDP was a Uyghur R1 individual.

You can find the STRs for HGDP individuals in this file: ftp://ftp.cephb.fr/hgdp_supp9/genotype-supp9.txt

I figured out who was what from this old study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1380230/table/TB3/

parasar
05-22-2015, 03:12 PM
I agree :) It looks like our brother clades suddenly split between L283 and Z2432 somewhere in mid east 9k years ago, without leaving any marks in the area. Interesting and mysterious.

In the case of Z2432 to me it looks like it immediately migrated to South Asia after the split 9k years ago, or the split could've happened closer to south Asia, and then L283 migrated suddenly to Anatolia by 8k years ago, then eventually soon after entered Balkans/Europe around 7k years ago. I think we will know more soon with more people being tested, but to me this would be the most logic hypothesis.

I still think the split was somewhere close to Europe (Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, Caucasus). The South Asian line perhaps split in the Neolithic.
"around 8,000 years ago a wave of farming and population growth exploded into both Europe and South Asia."
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/handful-bronze-age-men-could-have-fathered-two-thirds-europeans

This would be before the more recent expansion due to R lines (pink band below).
https://62e528761d0685343e1c-f3d1b99a743ffa4142d9d7f1978d9686.ssl.cf2.rackcdn.c om/files/82296/area14mp/image-20150519-30528-1mc26t0.png

parasar
05-22-2015, 04:35 PM
I still think the split was somewhere close to Europe (Balkans, Greece, Anatolia, Caucasus). The South Asian line perhaps split in the Neolithic.
"around 8,000 years ago a wave of farming and population growth exploded into both Europe and South Asia."
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/handful-bronze-age-men-could-have-fathered-two-thirds-europeans

This would be before the more recent expansion due to R lines (pink band below).
...

The R wave is supposedly distinguished by burial mounds:


Archaeological evidence shows that they swept into Europe around 4,500 years ago, bringing with them horses, wheels, their famous “kurgan” burial mounds and quite possibly Proto-Indo-European, the ancestral tongue of most European, as well as many South Asian languages. Just like farming before it, their package of resources, technologies and behaviours gave them an advantage over the pre-existing Europeans and they seem to have left a substantial genetic legacy across Europe.

So the question is which is the Indo European wave, the Neolithic farmer one, or the kurgan one, or both. It would appear that in the Neolithic expansion burial mounds would be absent. So they should be absent in Neolithic Anatolia, Greece, and the Balkans.

From Indic texts it would appear that the former wave was Vedic and second (burial mounds) Asurya (non Vedic), but both could be IE.
http://www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/canon.pdf

reported in the Påli texts as builders of high grave mounds, such as the one built for the Buddha. According to ŚB 12.8.1.5 the “easterners and others(!)” are reported to have round “demonic” graves, some of which may have been excavated at Lauriya in E. Nepal. These graves are similar to the kurgan type grave mounds of S. Russia and Central Asia.

In our region in eastern India, burial mounds were common. In my grandfather's period, after cremation, the remains were buried, a mound was made on top, and a tree or post planted.
Se eg.
http://www.thehindu.com/features/magazine/vignettes-from-an-age-of-war/article2037700.ece


Basant Sahi's head was cut off and sent to his widow, who committed sati along with 13 aides whose husbands too were killed in the battle. The 14 stupas containing their ashes at Huseypur are worshiped till date.

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00636/22_sm_sinha_4_jpg_636596g.jpg
The tree under which Fateh Sahi's cousin's wife committed Sati

So it would appear that at least from 800bc (Shatapatha Brahmana time-frame) to the recent present, the kurgan tradition has continued in eastern India.

Dr_McNinja
05-25-2015, 06:41 PM
Managed to get a DYS617 out of HG03696 (STU) who is J-Y958 (M241+, Z2432+, Z2433+, Y978+, Y958+). It's 12, so I think the DYS617=10 is a unique phenomenon to my line for now. Their DYS393 is 13 and DYS391 is 10 (I'm 23 and 11).

At DYS437 we are both 14 though. Everyone else except an ambiguous J-M172 Arab is 15 there.

I had to download a 20GB bam file for that, so I'm just going to assume the two other J-Y958 are the same for now until I get the time to try and check theirs.

The BAM analyzer kit screws up the STR for DYS464 so I can't tell what it is, though it's in the file.

parasar
05-25-2015, 06:46 PM
Managed to get a DYS617 out of HG03696 (STU) who is J-Y958 (M241+, Z2432+, Z2433+, Y978+, Y958+). It's 12, so I think the DYS617=10 is a unique phenomenon to my line for now. Their DYS393 is 13 and DYS391 is 10 (I'm 23 and 11).

...

13 or 23?

Dr_McNinja
05-25-2015, 07:12 PM
13 or 23?Sorry, DYS393=12 and DYS391=11

Polska
06-01-2015, 08:07 PM
Hi:

I tested 7 years ago. My grandfather's family emigrated from a small village in the mountains of southern Poland to the United States around 1905. The village is rumored to be originally settled by 16 captured Tatar soldiers over 700 years ago (1200s). These would have been some of the first Tatars in Poland, well before the Lipka Tatars who came later. I was curious if we belonged to an East Asian or Central Asian haplogroup. We were confirmed to be Haplogroup J2b2 +L283. This only created more questions. I tested 67 markers. We have one close match, at least close for J2b2. 62/67 markers, GD of 5. Last name is LUBOMIRSKI. This is a prominent noble name in Poland, very well known there. So while it appears our direct male line is not Tatar, it would seem we are connected to the LUBOMIRSKI family in Poland. Sometimes you ask questions in life and only wind up with more questions!

How many J2b2s out there have close matches after 67 markers tested? Are there any more tests that would be beneficial, such as the Big Y? Kit number is N60270. According to FTDNA, ancestral origins: 97% European, 3% Central/South Asian.

Thanks!

Polska
06-01-2015, 10:20 PM
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Lubomirski

Lubomirski Family is J2b2 +L283

Trojet
06-02-2015, 02:26 AM
Hi:

I tested 7 years ago. My grandfather's family emigrated from a small village in the mountains of southern Poland to the United States around 1905. The village is rumored to be originally settled by 16 captured Tatar soldiers over 700 years ago (1200s). These would have been some of the first Tatars in Poland, well before the Lipka Tatars who came later. I was curious if we belonged to an East Asian or Central Asian haplogroup. We were confirmed to be Haplogroup J2b2 +L283. This only created more questions. I tested 67 markers. We have one close match, at least close for J2b2. 62/67 markers, GD of 5. Last name is LUBOMIRSKI. This is a prominent noble name in Poland, very well known there. So while it appears our direct male line is not Tatar, it would seem we are connected to the LUBOMIRSKI family in Poland. Sometimes you ask questions in life and only wind up with more questions!

How many J2b2s out there have close matches after 67 markers tested? Are there any more tests that would be beneficial, such as the Big Y? Kit number is N60270. According to FTDNA, ancestral origins: 97% European, 3% Central/South Asian.

Thanks!

I see you have tested negative for Z638, Z1296, and Z1297. Did u do Geno 2.0 or just single SNP testing?
If you want to proceed with single SNP testing, you can test Z590 which is right below L283 and then if you are positive you can try Z584 which is right below Z590, but both of these are pretty old haplogroups over 5000 years, so not sure how informative would be. Otherwise, you can do a Big Y and define your branch since you don't seem to have close matches who have done SNP testing.
See this tree:
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

As far as J2b-L283 goes, it is considered to be the European branch of J2b-M241, and it formed over 9000 years ago, found at highest frequencies in the Balkans.

Polska
06-02-2015, 05:11 AM
I did the single SNP testing after testing 67 markers. Considering the Big Y now. I had known about my one close match for some time, but did not know who it was. There was no name. I had FTDNA send an email to them, but never heard back. Then FTDNA must have made some changes to their settings some years later. The last name was LUBOMIRSKI. No other info provided. I was unfamiliar with the last name. Did some googling, LUBOMIRSKI's results were uploaded for some reason to an IRISH Y DNA clan site. They never uploaded their results to the Polish Surname Project or J2/J2b FTDNA pages. I compared my 67 markers to his 67 markers. There was a GD of 5. So it was him: Prince Ladislaus Jean LUBOMIRSKI from Paris. He has a son, Alexi Lubomirski, who is a well known fashion photographer. I did some more digging, it turns out Ladislaus LUBOMIRSKI has been married several times. One of his more recent wives was doing genealogical research on her family and had him tested. So it was really her project. My question is why she had his results uploaded to this IRISH Y DNA project? Definitely intriguing. The village my family comes from is called Slopnice in the Beskid Mountains not too far from Zakopane, Poland. The original hypothesis was that since our family from that area are Gorale (Polish Highlanders),the likely reason for the J2b2 result was a connection to migratory Vlach shepherds who settled in the area several hundred years ago. The LUBOMIRSKI development came out of left field and really caught me off guard. We have genealogical records from the church in our village going back to the late 1600s/early 1700s, beyond that the trail vanishes. Our last name is MARCISZ, a highlander name somewhat common in the Limanowa Province there in Poland. As it turns out, the LUBOMIRSKI noble family used to own some of the land there in Slopnice many centuries ago. Also, over the mountain from Slopnice there is another small village called LUBOMIERZ. This village was founded by none other than Prince Sebastian LUBOMIRSKI in the 1500s. So they are LUBOMIRSKI and we are MARCISZ. 62/67 match, but different last names. Looking for more pieces to this puzzle, but feel like I've made pretty good progress too.

Cinnamon orange
06-02-2015, 06:19 AM
Hi,
I do not think I posted on this thread yet. My father is J2B2 on 23andme. His father was Arbereshe from southern Italy.

VinceT
06-02-2015, 06:53 AM
I am comparing NGS (BigY or FGC) data and reports for free, for anyone below J2b2-L283 to help flesh out and resolve the tree being generated at http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1a. Please PM if you are interested in contributing.

eastara
06-02-2015, 09:57 AM
Matches even at 67 markers can be misleading, you must ensure the SNPs match as well.
For example, a member of the Bulgarian DNA project, who is J2b2-M241 has 6/67 match with the family Worden. This is very rare for Bulgarians in this haplogroup, most have no matches above 12 markers.
However The Wordens were proven Z1043+. while 274489 Kunin came Z1043-. They have separated thousands of yeas ago and have no recent common ancestor, the haplotypes probably convergent , when the mutations made them randomly closer.
There are many Volga Tartars J2b2, however their branch is Z1043. They themselves speculate this came from Western Europe, not the Balkans and obviously not India.

Polska
06-02-2015, 02:29 PM
We stay close to LUBOMIRSKI after 12 (exact), 25, 37, and 67 markers and originally come from the same area in Poland. GD of 5. I would think the odds are in our favor that we share a common ancestor within the last 300-500 years?

parasar
06-02-2015, 02:39 PM
We stay close to LUBOMIRSKI after 12 (exact), 25, 37, and 67 markers and originally come from the same area in Poland. GD of 5. I would think the odds are in our favor that we share a common ancestor within the last 300-500 years?

Some Tatar J2b clusters are listed here: http://rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGGRE/article/view/136/156

The first cluster (8 haplotypes) comprises:
171415 Akchurin
12 24 15 10 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 27 16 19 31 13-15-15-17 11 10 19-20 13 14
17 17 35-38 11 9
182647 Kashaev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 27 16 19 30 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 35-38 11 9
174779 Dashkin
12 20 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 27 16 19 30 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 13
16 17 35-38 11 9
179758 Kudashev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 27 16 19 30 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 36-38 11 8
230430 Muratov
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 14 16 19 30 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 16 35-37 11 9
307956 Nasyrov
12 24 16 10 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 27 16 19 30 13-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 16 38-40 11 9
166909 Gizatov (Nogay-Kazakh-Kalpak)
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 9-9 11
11 27 16 19 30 13-15-15-17 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 35-38 11 10
264816 Mukhanin (Moksha)
12 24 15 10 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 17 8-9 11
11 29 16 19 31 13-15-15-16 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 35-39 11 9
The second cluster (14 haplotypes) comprises:
182650 Mamin
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 29 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 36-39 11 9
210508 Yengalychev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 18 35-40 10 9
219848 Yengalychev
12 24 15 10 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
17 17 37-40 11 9
210511 Dolotkazin
12 24 13 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 29 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 37-40 11 9
182651 Yerney
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 13 12 11 28 15 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 37-40 11 9
182775 Yenikeyev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 10 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 36-39 11 9
182643 Yenikeyev
12 24 15 10 13-17 11 15 13 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 31 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
17 17 36-40 11 9
230428 Yenikeyev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 10-10
11 11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-15 11 10 19-20 13
14 16 17 36-36 11 9
236949 Uteshev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 11 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 35-39 11 9
236944 Kil'keev
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 29 15-15-15-18 11 11 19-20 13 14
17 17 36-40 11 9
243785 Asadullin
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 14-15-15-17 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 36-40 11 9
266061 Nenyukov-Temnikovsky
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 12 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 36-39 11 9
236934 Sukhov
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 13 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-18 11 10 19-20 13 14
17 17 36-38 11 9
262044 Chupeykin (Moksha)
12 24 15 11 13-16 11 15 12 12 11 28 16 8-9 11
11 28 16 19 30 15-15-15-19 11 10 19-20 13 14
16 17 37-40 11 9
Due to insufficient number of markers, it is
not clear to which cluster the following haplotypes
shall be referred to;
90585 Sibgatullin
12 24 15 11 13-16 11 15 11 12 11 28
307954 Bibarsov
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28
276760 Kinyaikin (Moksha)
12 24 15 11 13-17 11 15 12 12 11 28

Trojet
06-02-2015, 03:26 PM
We stay close to LUBOMIRSKI after 12 (exact), 25, 37, and 67 markers and originally come from the same area in Poland. GD of 5. I would think the odds are in our favor that we share a common ancestor within the last 300-500 years?

Yes, at GD of 5 at 67 markers, it would seem like you share a recent common ancestor, maybe within the last 500 years, but to prove that you both need to make sure you belong in the same SNP, BigY or FGC would be ideal. Or have one do a BigY or FGC, and the other test for private (recent) SNPs of the BigY tester.

Do you know if that match has done any SNP testing? As mentioned earlier, sometimes markers can be misleading. SNP testing confirms how recent is the common ancestor.

ChrisR
06-02-2015, 05:38 PM
Matches even at 67 markers can be misleading, you must ensure the SNPs match as well.
For example, a member of the Bulgarian DNA project, who is J2b2-M241 has 6/67 match with the family Worden. This is very rare for Bulgarians in this haplogroup, most have no matches above 12 markers.
However The Wordens were proven Z1043+. while 274489 Kunin came Z1043-. They have separated thousands of yeas ago and have no recent common ancestor, the haplotypes probably convergent , when the mutations made them randomly closer.
There are many Volga Tartars J2b2, however their branch is Z1043. They themselves speculate this came from Western Europe, not the Balkans and obviously not India.
I can confirm the observation that under L283 there seem to be many overlapping haplotypes (GD 10-20%) in different subclades. This fact made a great update regrouping in [email protected] project for J2b very difficult 6 months ago. Look similar to the difficulty of identifying R1b subclades without SNP testing.
I also wonder about the migration connection of the Russian/Tatar samples sharing an ancestor ca. 2400 ybp (Z8428) with Germans, Spanish, Tuscan and Norway samples.
Quotes from e-mails I did send to VinceT:

It was my impression that L283 and Z2432 mark a major West/East split in J2b (YFull estimate 9600 ybp). I can not see Eastern sequences for L283 or Westerners for Z2432. Therefore I thaught L283 or at least a not far away descendant was already "pretty Western" (Anatolia or even Balkan and I would like a possible "North Black Sea" migration route verified by enough L283 from that route sequenced). [...]
my hypothesis is based only on the data we have from public and DTC sequences and HT-grouping in J2 project (I did regrouping ca. 6 months ago). The main observation is that all of L283 subclades / paragroups are present in West Europe while none in the Zagros region or East of it. Viceversa (the opposite) with Z2432: some of it seems present in Arabia (Persion Gulf Coast?) but nothing more Western.
I haven't used the following datasets for J2b (even not for all of J2a): Estonian Biocentre CG/Karmin et al 2015, Francalacci et al 2015, Hallast et al 2014, SK/Stoneking/Lippold et al 2014, GoNL (Y-VCF 2012), Chromo2 (2014)
For J2a Hallast has some interesting data from Middle East. I wonder if someone else (Roman S.?) has used any of these. I'm sure they would reveal something more, see also here: http://j2-m172.info/y-dna-data/y-chr-sequences/
Obviously we need enough Pre Iron Age ancient DNA to construct a real theory of the migration events.

Polska
06-02-2015, 06:55 PM
Yes, at GD of 5 at 67 markers, it would seem like you share a recent common ancestor, maybe within the last 500 years, but to prove that you both need to make sure you belong in the same SNP, BigY or FGC would be ideal. Or have one do a BigY or FGC, and the other test for private (recent) SNPs of the BigY tester.

Do you know if that match has done any SNP testing? As mentioned earlier, sometimes markers can be misleading. SNP testing confirms how recent is the common ancestor.

I don't believe they've done any SNP testing. It was one of his wives who had him do the test (I believe) and there are some restrictive privacy settings on their end. I had FTDNA try to reach them many years ago, but that was unsuccessful. Had they not published the name LUBOMIRSKI under the matches, I would never have known it was them. I highly doubt I will be able to contact LUBOMIRSKI, based on previous failed attempts, so I don't think I'll be able to establish TRCA via SNP testing, which is a shame. I get the impression that there are very few J2b2s out there who have matches this close after 67 markers.

Illyro-Vlach
06-12-2015, 12:12 AM
Hello everyone and great thread.

J2B2* paternal checking in here, testing done recently by way of 23andMe. Beyond the * after J2B2 I don't know much.

My focus has been on history and culture for quite some time, but the explosion in genetic research has been an awesome aide in understanding our histories.

I'm a Croatian from the Hercegovina region, ancestors over the past three centuries (at least) have been migrating to and fro between Hercegovina and the Dalmatian highlands. I chose this username because it reflects my working theory on my family's ancestry since Roman times on both sides.

I wish to learn more, as we all do, so I'll continue to lurk some more.

I notice an Albanian here as well as someone of Arbereshe descent. Coming in at J2B2* and not R1 ran contrary to my prediction.......

lgmayka
06-12-2015, 02:01 AM
We stay close to LUBOMIRSKI after 12 (exact), 25, 37, and 67 markers and originally come from the same area in Poland. GD of 5. I would think the odds are in our favor that we share a common ancestor within the last 300-500 years?
Yes, but it's not just the GD of 5 at 67 markers. It's the fact that in our Polish Project, your nearest neighbor at 67 markers is a GD of 18. In other words, the GD of 5 with Lubomirski (who is not in our project but is obviously Polish) is far more significant because you don't have any other near neighbors.

I myself would like to see you order the Big Y the next time it goes on sale.

Polska
06-12-2015, 03:53 AM
Yes, but it's not just the GD of 5 at 67 markers. It's the fact that in our Polish Project, your nearest neighbor at 67 markers is a GD of 18. In other words, the GD of 5 with Lubomirski (who is not in our project but is obviously Polish) is far more significant because you don't have any other near neighbors.

I myself would like to see you order the Big Y the next time it goes on sale.

I'll monitor my emails. The next Big Y sale, I'll likely order. Thanks!

Illyro-Vlach
06-12-2015, 01:33 PM
This might interest Trojet:

In Dalmatia, we have people called Arbanasi. They are Croatianized Albanians who settled here (especially in the Zadar area) a few hundred years back. Thanks to some digging and some help, I found out that they came from the Catholic Albanian villages in behind the town of Bar in Montenegro towards Lake Skadar/Scutar. It'd be interesting to see their y-lineage and how much they are J2B2.

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 03:01 PM
There are many Volga Tartars J2b2, however their branch is Z1043.

It is part of the truth. At the same cluster of Moksha and the percentage of this haplogroup is higher than among the Tatars (the subclade represented only Tatars Mishars).

Trojet
06-12-2015, 05:17 PM
This might interest Trojet:

In Dalmatia, we have people called Arbanasi. They are Croatianized Albanians who settled here (especially in the Zadar area) a few hundred years back. Thanks to some digging and some help, I found out that they came from the Catholic Albanian villages in behind the town of Bar in Montenegro towards Lake Skadar/Scutar. It'd be interesting to see their y-lineage and how much they are J2B2.

Hi and congrats on your results :) Yes, I have heard of the Arbanasi in Croatia, but didn't know what area they came from. Good research. I would guess a good percentage of them would be J2b2, especially considering that the area around Albania/Montenegro border has some of the highest J2b2 percentages. I'm intrigued what subclade (SNP) of J2b2 you might belong to... My guess would be that me and you for example, would be several thousand of years apart. From what I have seen, J2b2 is pretty diverse in the Balkans. I don't even match anybody from the Balkans on FTDNA beyond 12 markers.

Illyro-Vlach
06-12-2015, 05:57 PM
Hi and congrats on your results :) Yes, I have heard of the Arbanasi in Croatia, but didn't know what area they came from. Good research. I would guess a good percentage of them would be J2b2, especially considering that the area around Albania/Montenegro border has some of the highest J2b2 percentages. I'm intrigued what subclade (SNP) of J2b2 you might belong to... My guess would be that me and you for example, would be several thousand of years apart. From what I have seen, J2b2 is pretty diverse in the Balkans. I don't even match anybody from the Balkans on FTDNA beyond 12 markers.

One of the topics that most interests me is local ethnography along the Dinaric Range, hence the use of both Illyrian and Vlach. I have some great resources and even better contacts who have a lot of primary sources that they've made available to me.

My assumption (and assumptions aren't best as well all know) was that the Arbanasi would be from Northern Albania, particularly the Kelmendi Tribe. I was close, but not close enough.

As for my own subclade I have no idea what it is, but a good friend of mine from Frankfurt, Germany whose village is in my parish only 12 km away from mine also tested himself and wound up J2M172. He used ftdna for his test and not 23andMe like myself.

I'll dig up some of the info I have on the Arbanasis' original location and post them on this forum if you want, just tell me where.

BTW, do you have a GEDMATCH account?

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 05:59 PM
Hi and congrats on your results :) Yes, I have heard of the Arbanasi in Croatia, but didn't know what area they came from. Good research. I would guess a good percentage of them would be J2b2, especially considering that the area around Albania/Montenegro border has some of the highest J2b2 percentages. I'm intrigued what subclade (SNP) of J2b2 you might belong to... My guess would be that me and you for example, would be several thousand of years apart. From what I have seen, J2b2 is pretty diverse in the Balkans. I don't even match anybody from the Balkans on FTDNA beyond 12 markers.

I have other data. The Albanians low diversity. (Information from the administrator of the project - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-102/about/background)

Trojet
06-12-2015, 06:48 PM
I have other data. The Albanians low diversity. (Information from the administrator of the project - https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/m-102/about/background)

I have seen all that data buddy :) and there is nothing there that indicates that. Obviously you have an agenda. Didn't you read my post when I said I'm not matching anybody beyond 12 markers in the Balkans??? If the diversity was low among Albanians, I would surely match at least one of them, there are about 5 of us who have done at least 37 str marker test on ftdna and nobody is matching, all of us are showing GDs of over 20%. Go to the Albanian DNA project and the J2 and J2b projects on ftdna to see for yourself...
Also so far from SNP testing, which by the way are a better indication of diversity than STRs, one Albanian from Kosovo belongs in J2b-Z638*, and me (Albanian from Macedonia) belong in J2b-Z1296* (different J2b branches). FYI, Z1296 split from Z638 over 4000 years ago. So your "low Albanian diversity" was just proven wrong :)

Trojet
06-12-2015, 07:05 PM
One of the topics that most interests me is local ethnography along the Dinaric Range, hence the use of both Illyrian and Vlach. I have some great resources and even better contacts who have a lot of primary sources that they've made available to me.

My assumption (and assumptions aren't best as well all know) was that the Arbanasi would be from Northern Albania, particularly the Kelmendi Tribe. I was close, but not close enough.

As for my own subclade I have no idea what it is, but a good friend of mine from Frankfurt, Germany whose village is in my parish only 12 km away from mine also tested himself and wound up J2M172. He used ftdna for his test and not 23andMe like myself.

I'll dig up some of the info I have on the Arbanasis' original location and post them on this forum if you want, just tell me where.

BTW, do you have a GEDMATCH account?

Yes, I do have a GEDMATCH. I will pm it to you. I guess you can post any info about the Arbanasi you get here. But to be honest with you I'm not very familiar with those tribes in Northern Albania cause my family is from Western Macedonia.

As for your friend, I wonder how many markers he tested. Ftdna will just tell you J-M172, which could be J2a or J2b, these separated around 20,000 years ago, but from the matches it is possible to tell what SNP someone might belong to. Also by joining the J2 project on FTDNA he could get much more info depending on how many markers he tested.

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 08:13 PM
I have seen all that data buddy :) and there is nothing there that indicates that. Obviously you have an agenda. Didn't you read my post when I said I'm not matching anybody beyond 12 markers in the Balkans??? If the diversity was low among Albanians, I would surely match at least one of them, there are about 5 of us who have done at least 37 str marker test on ftdna and nobody is matching, all of us are showing GDs of over 20%. Go to the Albanian DNA project and the J2 and J2b projects on ftdna to see for yourself...
Also so far from SNP testing, which by the way are a better indication of diversity than STRs, one Albanian from Kosovo belongs in J2b-Z638*, and me (Albanian from Macedonia) belong in J2b-Z1296* (different J2b branches). FYI, Z1296 split from Z638 over 4000 years ago. So your "low Albanian diversity" was just proven wrong :)

On the basis of the two samples is difficult to talk about diversity and you have a larger sample? It would be interesting to see.

Trojet
06-12-2015, 09:16 PM
On the basis of the two samples is difficult to talk about diversity and you have a larger sample? It would be interesting to see.

Well, I can only go with the samples we have which is two of us who have done deep SNP testing belong to different branches who split over 4000 years ago (Z638* and Z1296*). I have also heard on this forum on a different thread someone said a couple of Albanians on Geno 2.0 tested J2b-Z1043 which is on the other side of my Z1296 branch, but I haven't seen these results on projects or anything, so I didn't mention it.
The STRs results I mentioned which you ignored, also do not suggest low diversity.

BTW, that link you posted says nothing about low diversity in Albanians, there is only like 2 Albanians on that project last time I checked, so I'm sure the administrator wouldn't make such a statement and you know it too :)

Illyro-Vlach
06-12-2015, 09:54 PM
I can't reply to your PM since I have not yet crossed the 10 post threshold.

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 10:09 PM
Well, I can only go with the samples we have which is two of us who have done deep SNP testing belong to different branches who split over 4000 years ago (Z638* and Z1296*). I have also heard on this forum on a different thread someone said a couple of Albanians on Geno 2.0 tested J2b-Z1043 which is on the other side of my Z1296 branch, but I haven't seen these results on projects or anything, so I didn't mention it.
The STRs results I mentioned which you ignored, also do not suggest low diversity.

BTW, that link you posted says nothing about low diversity in Albanians, there is only like 2 Albanians on that project last time I checked, so I'm sure the administrator wouldn't make such a statement and you know it too :)

Administrator of my old friend, and I know what he said))

The fact that the two examples subclades can give me. For example, in Russia there is I1-Z140 and I1-L813, broke the subclades very long time, but a variety of I1 above all in the N.Germany/Denmark.

Actually I am not against the Albanian diversity J2b, but there is little statistics.

Trojet
06-12-2015, 10:24 PM
Administrator of my old friend, and I know what he said))

The fact that the two examples subclades can give me. For example, in Russia there is I1-Z140 and I1-L813, broke the subclades very long time, but a variety of I1 above all in the N.Germany/Denmark.

Actually I am not against the Albanian diversity J2b, but there is little statistics.

I agree not a lot of Albanians do DNA tests, I'm working on recruiting some, but that doesn't mean low diversity and as i said from the samples we have it doesnt suggest that. From different studies the frequency of J2b2 is the highest among Albanian speaking areas though.

I know which admin you are talking about I think he is Russian too, I would be surprised that he made that statement based on two samples on that project. I notice he is not active on ftdna projects anymore.

Trojet
06-12-2015, 10:26 PM
I can't reply to your PM since I have not yet crossed the 10 post threshold.

Sorry, I hope you got my message though. Let me know if you didn't.

Illyro-Vlach
06-12-2015, 10:28 PM
Sorry, I hope you got my message though. Let me know if you didn't.

Got it and ran it. Zero in common :)

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 10:41 PM
I agree not a lot of Albanians do DNA tests, I'm working on recruiting some, but that doesn't mean low diversity and as i said from the samples we have it doesnt suggest that. From different studies the frequency of J2b2 is the highest among Albanian speaking areas though.

I know which admin you are talking about I think he is Russian too, I would be surprised that he made that statement based on two samples on that project. I notice he is not active on ftdna projects anymore.

I think such thoughts because of the haplotype analysis of the Albanian scientific samples.
http://s009.radikal.ru/i307/1506/cb/f0d110cd51ad.png (http://www.radikal.ru)
However, there is only yfiler (17 markers), which of course is not enough. In addition, it can be a founder effect.

I heard the opinion that the greatest variety of J2b STR in the Alps.

Besides J2b have Saami, which is extremely curious.

In any case, we will wait for the new Albanian haplotypes. Good luck in your research!

Trojet, you made BigY or you checked SNPs?

Trojet
06-12-2015, 10:43 PM
I think such thoughts because of the haplotype analysis of the Albanian scientific samples.
http://s009.radikal.ru/i307/1506/cb/f0d110cd51ad.png (http://www.radikal.ru)
However, there is only yfiler (17 markers), which of course is not enough. In addition, it can be a founder effect.

I heard the opinion that the greatest variety of J2b STR in the Alps.

Besides J2b have Saami, which is extremely curious.

In any case, we will wait for the new Albanian haplotypes. Good luck in your research!

Trojet, you made BigY or you checked SNPs?

I don't trust STRs, especially only 17 markers, and I know for a fact on the J2b projects they have not been very helpful in grouping people.

I checked SNPs through YSEQ. At some point I will do BigY, but it is too expensive right now.

Shtrun
06-12-2015, 10:46 PM
I checked SNPs through YSEQ. At some point I will do BigY, but it is too expensive right now.

Ok, I look forward to your BigY. We have tested several Tatars-Mishars and Moksha, they can be seen on the tree Yfull. It will be interesting to compare.

Trojet
06-12-2015, 10:52 PM
Ok, I look forward to your BigY. We have tested several Tatars-Mishars and Moksha, they can be seen on the tree Yfull. It will be interesting to compare.

Yes I have seen all those samples on yfull. Like I said I have done my research on J2b2 :) I have tested Z1296+ and Z1297- (negative) therefore no relationship with those samples you mentioned as they belong below Z1043. So I must form undiscovered SNPs below Z1296 and parallel to Z1297.

paulgill
06-22-2015, 12:04 AM
Sorry, DYS393=12 and DYS391=11


What is the time line of the splitt of your branch from the Near East branch?

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2015, 04:20 AM
What is the time line of the splitt of your branch from the Near East branch?

http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/ (I am YF02959)

There is no Near Eastern branch which is what's weird. There's just a European/Caucasus/Anatolian (mostly near Balkans) branch and an Indian one. Nobody from other parts of Asia has been tested for downstream markers though some Tatars from the Western/European steppe area have been European J2b2 (L283 subclade).

J2b1 and J2b* have been found a little more commonly in Caucasus/Anatolia/Northern Middle East regions.

paulgill
06-23-2015, 07:56 AM
Sorry, DYS393=12 and DYS391=11


http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-M241/ (I am YF02959)

There is no Near Eastern branch which is what's weird. There's just a European/Caucasus/Anatolian (mostly near Balkans) branch and an Indian one. Nobody from other parts of Asia has been tested for downstream markers though some Tatars from the Western/European steppe area have been European J2b2 (L283 subclade).

J2b1 and J2b* have been found a little more commonly in Caucasus/Anatolia/Northern Middle East regions.


I was banned from here for a month and during that period I may have stumbled upon something that I had missed all along. May be you have looked into it already and may be not, do you have any connection to the J2 found in Sindh and Blochistan?

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2015, 08:04 AM
I was banned from here for a month and during that period I may have stumbled upon something that I had missed all along. May be you have looked into it already and may be not, do you have any connection to the J2 found in Sindh and Blochistan?
I haven't seen any J2b2-M241 from Balochistan so I can't really say for sure.

I pulled some partial Y-STR results for Kalash/Burusho/Sindhi J2b2-M241 and put them here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qay3XTxfZijTFfy2c3E54625wqfPfMrPlvlTge_-ldA/edit#gid=0

But it's non-conclusive considering people in my own clade (J-Y978, the other branch, J-Y958) have completely different Y-STRs from me. 5000+ years is a long time I guess. DYS617=10 is so far unique to me.

Dr_McNinja
06-23-2015, 08:16 AM
I think there's two scenarios for Z2432 sub-branches.

1. These represent various farming-era civilizations of Asia, including perhaps some who were in Central Asia (BMAC?) and South Central Asia (Mehrgarh?). This would be confirmed with Z2432 branches being found in Central Asia, Afghanistan, Tajikstan, Iran, or the Persian Gulf. One user here (Rasko) is a Pakistani Punjabi of paternal origin in Afghanistan who is J2b2-M241 (an Afghan link is confirmed through autosomal results). Don't know if he'd be interested in testing his Y line though.

2. These were different lineages present in India for 7000 some odd years. Which is almost crazy to contemplate for such a small foreign-origin haplogroup. The different clades and massive founder effect necessary for their distinction could represent different civilizations/dynasties in what is basically unknown Indian history (way before even IVC). We'd need to do extensive testing of ancient remains in India somehow.

It's weird to think there's thousands of years of unknown Indian history as complicated as any known history, complete with the rise and fall of civilizations, cultures, and languages. And it's all a complete mystery.

paulgill
06-23-2015, 09:03 AM
I haven't seen any J2b2-M241 from Balochistan so I can't really say for sure.

I pulled some partial Y-STR results for Kalash/Burusho/Sindhi J2b2-M241 and put them here:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1qay3XTxfZijTFfy2c3E54625wqfPfMrPlvlTge_-ldA/edit#gid=0

But it's non-conclusive considering people in my own clade (J-Y978, the other branch, J-Y958) have completely different Y-STRs from me. 5000+ years is a long time I guess. DYS617=10 is so far unique to me.

Look into Samma Jamot Tribe of Sindh and Blochistan, there is too much of J2 in SouthAsia, these may be the ones who brought agriculture from the Fertile Crescent to South Asia and may be the ones responsible for the IVC, even Mehrgarh.

kenji.aryan
07-01-2015, 07:17 AM
But the team of archaeologists working at this Harappan site of Rakhigarhi, 90 minutes east of Hisar in Haryana, have excavated skeletal remains with DNA samples intact and sent them to a special DNA and palaeontology lab in South Korea for testing - a first for a Harappan site.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Images/popup/2015/5/1705pg16a.jpg

http://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/what-did-harappans-eat-how-did-they-look-rakhigarhi-has-the-answers/article1-1348101.aspx

Dr_McNinja
07-02-2015, 01:25 AM
That's great news!

paulgill
07-02-2015, 09:18 AM
That's great news!

This is what I stumbled upon while I was banned here. There is a large Tribe of Jatt or Jamot named Samma in Sindh Blauchistan and Punjab etc. They have a sub tribe named Abro, Abra, Abrah etc. and this tribe again have a sub-sub tribe named Kehar.

Now, there are Khabra Jatts on Indian side, one of the village they founded is named Kaharpur. Piara Singh Khabra (20 November 1921[1] – 19 June 2007) was a British politician who served as the Labour Member of Parliament (MP) for Ealing Southall from 1992 until his death, comes from this village.

Harmanjot Singh Khabra (born 18 December 1988 in Punjab) is an Indian footballer who plays as a midfielder for East Bengal in the I-League, also comes from this village.

I wonder why this village Kaharpur was named as such, maybe it was named after the name of Kehar sub tribe, and while the Khabra surname that comes from Khabur River, Eber[Heber] or Hebrew, as I mentioned before was retained at the same time. Samma Tribe people do claim that they come from the lineage of Noah. I also have found many other sub tribes of Abro tribe on Indian side. J1 is hardly found in South Asia, so this connection if exists have to be proven genetically.

But there is no shortage of J2, and it now appears to me that J2 is responsible for the spread of agriculture from the fertile crescent to this area, and all that old civilization belonged basically to J2. This is why I want you to look into Samma Jamot Tribe, to see if they are related to you, they are either J2 or a mix of J1 and J2, I think.

paulgill
07-05-2015, 07:00 PM
Online Ancient Genome Repository

https://www.oagr.org.au/

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/…/150617091631.htm

paulgill
07-10-2015, 08:18 AM
That's great news!

I think that it is the time that you start looking into Samma Jamot[Jatts]. You must have some of these people right where you live. It is your community, so I think you should have no difficulty in finding and contacting these people. I don't know if you ever been to Pakistan, I think Kurd might be visiting these places sometimes, we need to find some right candidates from among these people and have them tested, possibly at YSEQ. Do you know the total cost of testing just one SNP per kit at YSEQ [$17.50 SNP+$ Kit+$ S+H] etc?

I have upgraded my WGS to 10x and might be able to find a very good SNP downstream of J1-Z1853 that I can have couple of these people tested for and I think you should do the same. What you say?

Dr_McNinja
07-10-2015, 04:41 PM
I think that it is the time that you start looking into Samma Jamot[Jatts]. You must have some of these people right where you live. It is your community, so I think you should have no difficulty in finding and contacting these people. I don't know if you ever been to Pakistan, I think Kurd might be visiting these places sometimes, we need to find some right candidates from among these people and have them tested, possibly at YSEQ. Do you know the total cost of testing just one SNP per kit at YSEQ [$17.50 SNP+$ Kit+$ S+H] etc?

I have upgraded my WGS to 10x and might be able to find a very good SNP downstream of J1-Z1853 that I can have couple of these people tested for and I think you should do the same. What you say?
I probably won't be back in Pakistan until next year. I had my grandmother's paternal line sampled with my last spare FTDNA kit last time I was there earlier this year. Next time I go, I'll take a bunch more YSEQ kits and see if my family knows any people. They're in Karachi (and in the Malir area according to the Wiki where I have a lot of family living) so I might be able to find some. I don't think I can get samples of strangers (they'll probably refuse) but if my family knows them, it probably won't be a big deal.

kenji.aryan
07-10-2015, 07:15 PM
I think that it is the time that you start looking into Samma Jamot[Jatts]. You must have some of these people right where you live. It is your community, so I think you should have no difficulty in finding and contacting these people. I don't know if you ever been to Pakistan, I think Kurd might be visiting these places sometimes, we need to find some right candidates from among these people and have them tested, possibly at YSEQ. Do you know the total cost of testing just one SNP per kit at YSEQ [$17.50 SNP+$ Kit+$ S+H] etc?

I have upgraded my WGS to 10x and might be able to find a very good SNP downstream of J1-Z1853 that I can have couple of these people tested for and I think you should do the same. What you say?

Aren't Samma Rajputs and claim to be Yaduvanshi descent.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samma_(tribe)


The Sammas, a Rajput tribe, gained control of Thatta in the southern Sindh from the Sumras around 1335, and expanded their territory northward to Bhakkar and beyond. In 1361-62, Firuz Shah Tughlaq of Delhi Sultanate, invaded Sindh and again brought Sammas under his suzerainty.[3] Throughout the period of the Samma dynasty.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samma_dynasty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajput

paulgill
07-10-2015, 10:57 PM
Aren't Samma Rajputs and claim to be Yaduvanshi descent.?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samma_(tribe)


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samma_dynasty

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sindhi_Rajput


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Samma_clans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamot

http://wwwurthebesthasnain.blogspot.ca/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kehar

Many of these tribes are also found on Indian side of the border too.

Rajputs are a later development, originally they were Jatts and Gujjars only, and later on Bhil, Kol and other tribals were raised to this status and used by Brahmins against Jatts and Gujjars.


Your J2-M241 may belong to the same people, may be it was a priestly family among them, so it was able to find its way into Brahmin caste.

Dr_McNinja
07-11-2015, 04:08 AM
Speaking of which, Kenji, any news on your plans to get tested at YSEQ?

paulgill
07-11-2015, 10:12 AM
I probably won't be back in Pakistan until next year. I had my grandmother's paternal line sampled with my last spare FTDNA kit last time I was there earlier this year. Next time I go, I'll take a bunch more YSEQ kits and see if my family knows any people. They're in Karachi (and in the Malir area according to the Wiki where I have a lot of family living) so I might be able to find some. I don't think I can get samples of strangers (they'll probably refuse) but if my family knows them, it probably won't be a big deal.

But I think you can also find them right where you are, in USA.

Dr_McNinja
07-13-2015, 12:07 AM
Someone from the UK (most likely of recent (well, 19th century) Indian descent I think) showed up as my next closest match:

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a2

They're downstream of me (Y978) but upstream of the next branch (Y958). It's a new branch off Y978. The project administrator has recommended they get a YFull analysis.

They're here in the group too: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172/default.aspx?section=yresults

Our STRs aren't too similar and they're DYS617=12, so DYS617=10 is still likely to be peculiar to my immediate line (though they are going to be separated from me by 5000+ years like the others anyway).

paulgill
07-13-2015, 09:22 AM
I probably won't be back in Pakistan until next year. I had my grandmother's paternal line sampled with my last spare FTDNA kit last time I was there earlier this year. Next time I go, I'll take a bunch more YSEQ kits and see if my family knows any people. They're in Karachi (and in the Malir area according to the Wiki where I have a lot of family living) so I might be able to find some. I don't think I can get samples of strangers (they'll probably refuse) but if my family knows them, it probably won't be a big deal.


Someone from the UK (most likely of recent (well, 19th century) Indian descent I think) showed up as my next closest match:

http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a2

They're downstream of me (Y978) but upstream of the next branch (Y958). It's a new branch off Y978. The project administrator has recommended they get a YFull analysis.

They're here in the group too: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J2-M172/default.aspx?section=yresults

Our STRs aren't too similar and they're DYS617=12, so DYS617=10 is still likely to be peculiar to my immediate line (though they are going to be separated from me by 5000+ years like the others anyway).

Interesting, if it really is a South Asian individual, then get in touch with him and the gap can be narrowed by testing his community members. Total cost at YSEQ be only $17.50 per individual, a steal compared to other options out there.

ChrisR
07-13-2015, 11:18 AM
Someone from the UK (most likely of recent (well, 19th century) Indian descent I think) showed up as my next closest match:
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a2
The owner of kit 275326 replied. Indeed his paternal line ancestry is South Asian: GGF Henry Lee b.c.1840 m.1860 Bardhaman (Burdwan), West Bengal, India.
FTDNA ancestor info and J2-M172 Research Tree updated.

Dr_McNinja
07-14-2015, 05:06 PM
The owner of kit 275326 replied. Indeed his paternal line ancestry is South Asian: GGF Henry Lee b.c.1840 m.1860 Bardhaman (Burdwan), West Bengal, India.
FTDNA ancestor info and J2-M172 Research Tree updated.Cool! Did he decide to get the YFull analysis?

paulgill
07-18-2015, 09:12 PM
That's great news!


Another twist in my case.

* Jograj Singh Gurjar belonged to the Parmar (Khubed) clan of Gurjars who chased Timur to Ambala and did not allow him to loot his kingdom. He hailed from a village near Haridwar called Kunja, Later this village was uprooted and destroyed by the Mughals,The clan of the Jograj Singh escaped from this village and reached Landhaura, where they settled and again established the Lundora Gurjar Kingdom.

Khubed also known as Khubar. Why it is important is because once I was inquiring where our people came from and an old Tailor from the same village, now no more, told me that you people are originally from Haridwar. These people go to Haridwar for last rites and deal with the Pandas there who keep the genealogical records.

Also there is a Kubra tribe of Baloch.

Sorry, off topic, but important.

paulgill
07-20-2015, 03:30 AM
That's great news!


If you have any missing recent family history, then the one place that you can find it is with the Pandas of Haridwar, yes, even when you belong to a different religion, all the pre conversion information be there, as long as you can tell which village and district your ancestors were from prior to the conversion. But it won't be any good to fill the 6kyrs gap that you have. Unfortunately I have no chance to get to them as I am badly stuck at this place.

ChrisR
07-20-2015, 06:00 PM
J2b-S17101/YP64
This minor sublineage of L283 (ca. 9800 years) was originally found in Sardinians (899-901 PF15) and I now found that "only" 7 SNPs are shared with two Dutch men (GoNL project).
This supports the hypotheses that L283 was already in Europe (likely near Balkans) when it expanded. If no diverse S17101/YP64 sublineages will be found outside of Europe the hypothesis will get substantial support by modern distribution.
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1b
[like posted also in J2 Fb]

SNPs:
15411613 T C J2b1a1b approx. S17101/YP64
21792231 C T J2b1a1b approx. YP153
15338242 A G J2b1a1b approx. YP61
15517964 T C J2b1a1b approx. YP65
17297034 C T J2b1a1b approx. YP91
13202243 A G J2b1a1b approx. Z38461
13643927 A G J2b1a1b approx. Z38462

ChrisR
07-22-2015, 02:15 PM
NEWS J2b-CTS560>M205>PH4306...
A little refinement for this minor lineage.
Interesting the possible HT matching of study samples with FTDNA kits.
PH-pal-5232 Palestinian: 265129 Qatar
PH-tur-12 Turkish: 270426 Gaglio NW Sicily
PH-gre-3 Greek: 167100 Palazzotto (Palasota), NW Sicily
possible matches to PH4306: 248827, 311807, 48584
http://j2-m172.info/2015/07/j2b-cts560-m205-ph4306-a-little-substructure-for-this-isolated-lineage/
http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2

[like posted also in J2 Fb (https://www.facebook.com/groups/j2.m172/permalink/10153451393117769/)]

slamberty
07-27-2015, 06:25 AM
I recently took a DNA test through 23andMe and my paternal lineage is also J2b2 (subclade undetermined but most likely L283), which I was already aware of since my uncle had taken his own DNA test through 23andMe as well. My family originated from what is now Eschfeld, Rhineland-Palatinate, Germany but what used to be Luxembourg before the change in territories. I also have extended family from Luxembourg and Germany as well. I've been trying to figure out the mystery behind the family Y allosome for quite some time now. I do know that my family surname ultimately has Germanic roots and based on our DNA test, we do indeed have Germanic paternal DNA but also very small percentages of paternal DNA correlating with Italian, Iberian and Southern European populations in general. Given the history of our paternal lineage, I guess it would make sense but what I don't know is when exactly it arrived there. I've been told that there's a very good chance that my family's been in that part of Europe for millenia and that our lineage was indeed from the time of Old Europe. But so far I haven't been able to find any direct correlation between J2b2 and the LBK (Linear Pottery Culture). I'm sure that not enough evidence has been collected or research has been done to where definite proof has been found. But again, as of right now I don't know if that's the case or if it came at a later time, for instance with the Celts or with the spread of the Roman Empire even. Anyone else have any other ideas?

Trojet
07-27-2015, 12:29 PM
Given the history of our paternal lineage, I guess it would make sense but what I don't know is when exactly it arrived there. I've been told that there's a very good chance that my family's been in that part of Europe for millenia and that our lineage was indeed from the time of Old Europe. But so far I haven't been able to find any direct correlation between J2b2 and the LBK (Linear Pottery Culture). I'm sure that not enough evidence has been collected or research has been done to where definite proof has been found. But again, as of right now I don't know if that's the case or if it came at a later time, for instance with the Celts or with the spread of the Roman Empire even. Anyone else have any other ideas?

Welcome :)
Indeed, the current hypothesis is that J2b-L283 is Neolithic in SE Europe/Balkans. There have been found 2 Neolithic ancient DNA samples from Sopot and Lengyel cultures (present day Hungary), but they were only tested to J2, but the thought is that they are J2b-L283 (European J2b2). Specifically what SE European cultures this haplogroup was involved in if any, nobody knows yet. We need more ancient DNA for that.

As far as when different subclades arrived to different parts of northern Europe, it is anybody's guess right now. Could be anywhere from Late Neolithic to Roman times or even later. To better understand this we need more Y sequences of this haplogroup, especially from the Balkans where we don't have many. To me though it looks like a subclade below J2b-Z1043 (Z8430?) might have diversified north of the Balkans ~2900 ybp since it hasn't been found in the Balkans yet.

See the latest research tree from haplogroup J2 admin:
www.tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b1a1a

Yfull tree:
www.yfull.com/tree/J-L283/

slamberty
07-28-2015, 10:02 AM
Thank you for the input. Another thing I forgot to point out is that apparently, outside of the Balkans, haplogroup J2b is also common in the area of Central Europe and Italy, which is roughly the extent of European Copper Age culture. So it could very well have arrived with the spread of Copper Age culture as well. Given the timeline of the region that my family is from, in any event it would have been absorbed into Celtic culture before the spread of the Roman Empire and later the Germanic tribes. Also taking into account how the Celts in the area became culturally "Romanized" under Roman rule and later "Germanicized" following Germanic invasions. If only I knew what the exact subclade was that my family belongs to, that would definitely provide more clarity there.

Dr_McNinja
09-09-2015, 09:44 PM
From Family Tree DNA:


Hello Haplogroup J2-M172 member!

Family Tree DNA is pleased to announce the introduction of a new Deep Clade test for descendants of Haplogroup J2-M172. The purpose of this test is to identify your most terminal SNP on the Y-DNA Tree of mankind!

During the past two years the number of SNP’s on the tree of Haplogroup J2-M172 has expanded dramatically. While we are confident you are in Haplogroup J2-M172 you now have the opportunity to expand the depth of your Haplogroup much further with this exclusive test.

Click the button below to login to your kit and be one of the first customers to get the Haplogroup J2-M172 backbone test for an introductory price of $99!

http://i.imgur.com/sDiLjz3.pngAbout time...

Dr_McNinja
09-09-2015, 09:49 PM
It's weird though, why don't they have an R1a SNP panel that includes Z93/Z94? That's a far more common haplogroup, but here they already have South Asian J2b2 SNPs....

paulgill
09-09-2015, 10:33 PM
It's weird though, why don't they have an R1a SNP panel that includes Z93/Z94? That's a far more common haplogroup, but here they already have South Asian J2b2 SNPs....


Is Kenji testing himself for an SNP at YSEQ yet or not?

Dr_McNinja
09-09-2015, 10:38 PM
Is Kenji testing himself for an SNP at YSEQ yet or not?

Yeah, next time he visits the US I believe. Maybe later this year.

Trojet
09-09-2015, 10:40 PM
The coverage of the SNPs seems to be pretty low at least for J2b2, not sure about other subclades. Oh well at least it's something from FTDNA.

lgmayka
09-09-2015, 10:50 PM
It's weird though, why don't they have an R1a SNP panel that includes Z93/Z94?
We still don't have a panel for R1a-Z280, even though I submitted a comprehensive proposal in November 2014 and have continually followed up since. I see no point in submitting an R1a-Z93 proposal until we see some sign of interest on the FTDNA side.

Dr_McNinja
09-09-2015, 11:04 PM
The coverage of the SNPs seems to be pretty low at least for J2b2, not sure about other subclades. Oh well at least it's something from FTDNA.

It actually covers a lot of the South Asian branch of J2b2 which is kind of funny.

paulgill
09-09-2015, 11:05 PM
We still don't have a panel for R1a-Z280, even though I submitted a comprehensive proposal in November 2014 and have continually followed up since. I see no point in submitting an R1a-Z93 proposal until we see some sign of interest on the FTDNA side.

Can't you get them from YSEQ, they certainly will get them ready for you if you send a request for them?

Trojet
09-09-2015, 11:26 PM
It actually covers a lot of the South Asian branch of J2b2 which is kind of funny.

Now that I looked at it better, I see that it does cover the main SNPs for L283 too, but of course it could've been better. Can't get everything for $99 though.

lgmayka
09-10-2015, 12:14 AM
Can't you get them from YSEQ, they certainly will get them ready for you if you send a request for them?
Yes, and Yseq indeed has a Z280 SNP panel (http://www.yseq.net/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=10169). But:
- If FTDNA ever actually releases my proposed SNP pack, it will test a much larger number of SNPs (over 100)
- Many project members want their SNP results to display directly on the project web site
- In many cases, additional DNA samples are not available.

Dr_McNinja
10-10-2015, 04:12 PM
In South Asian J2b2 news, my friend whose ancestry is from Mumbai (but is from Karachi, Pakistan via New Delhi (Muhajir)) tested positive for Z2437:

http://i.imgur.com/3dCSsXk.png

Which was expected I guess. Testing Z2448 next. I think some of the other Pakistan area samples (Burusho/Sindhi) will also be Z2437/Z2448: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a2

paulgill
10-13-2015, 04:30 AM
In South Asian J2b2 news, my friend whose ancestry is from Mumbai (but is from Karachi, Pakistan via New Delhi (Muhajir)) tested positive for Z2437:

http://i.imgur.com/3dCSsXk.png

Which was expected I guess. Testing Z2448 next. I think some of the other Pakistan area samples (Burusho/Sindhi) will also be Z2437/Z2448: http://tree.j2-m172.info/?Hg=J2b2a2

Not on your line though, mine WGS is done now, and I expect to see the results by Halloween, will let you know when I get them.

Marjeta
11-25-2015, 12:20 PM
Hi,
my fother is J2b-Z639 + from west Slovenia, region Tolmin. He has italian surname Manfreda. This surname I found in old documents till 16. century in our area (Tolmin, Most na Soči) of nowday Slovenia. From where this concret haplotype came here I would like to know. More SNP test should be done. Is there any specific italian SNP or more for J2b-Z639 subclades?

VinceT
11-25-2015, 06:44 PM
http://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z631/

Z8425 and Z8430 have been observed in Italians (Tuscany). You could try testing down the tree from Z1043, though. The J2 - M172 SNP Pack includes several of these.

Alternatively: NGS testing like Big-Y (FTDNA) or preferably Y-Elite 2.0 (Fullgenomes.com), since the J2 - M172 SNP Pack is somewhat incomplete; SNP packs can only test some of the SNPs we know about, and none of the ones we don't.

slamberty
11-30-2015, 02:15 AM
Update: I must have misinterpreted this the first time I read it but from the looks of it, there's more than one Neolithic paternal lineage associated with the Indo-Europeans in general, including G2a3b1 and J2b2. As far as how I've been theorizing about my paternal ancestry though, I've really been going by history, demographics, and of course, chance/likelihood. That's the reason why I initially guessed that it was associated with Gallo-Roman culture but if it was associated with the Indo-Europeans in general, then there's a chance that it could be associated with the Germanic tribes as well (namely the Franks, given the history of the area that my family's from). After all, my surname does ultimately have Germanic roots (apparently derived from a Latinized form of Landberht, according to Ancestry.com anyway, but it could have been altered by some other means as well).

paulgill
11-30-2015, 10:33 AM
Update: I must have misinterpreted this the first time I read it but from the looks of it, there's more than one Neolithic paternal lineage associated with the Indo-Europeans in general, including G2a3b1 and J2b2. As far as how I've been theorizing about my paternal ancestry though, I've really been going by history, demographics, and of course, chance/likelihood. That's the reason why I initially guessed that it was associated with Gallo-Roman culture but if it was associated with the Indo-Europeans in general, then there's a chance that it could be associated with the Germanic tribes as well (namely the Franks, given the history of the area that my family's from). After all, my surname does ultimately have Germanic roots (apparently derived from a Latinized form of Landberht, according to Ancestry.com anyway, but it could have been altered by some other means as well).

If you are also including in it the Indo-Aryans, strictly R1a1a.

slamberty
11-30-2015, 11:46 PM
Yes, that's what I meant when I said Indo-Europeans in general.

Edward J
12-02-2015, 08:38 PM
Slamberty - thought you would find this post from Mr. Ted Kandell from the J-M172 Facebook Page. It was certainly of interest to me since my J2 ancestors are Germans from the Rhineland:

However, perhaps the most remarkable aDNA J2 find is a set of 3 Merovingian Era graves from the Roman villa Borgharen-Pasestraat near Trichtervoogdenstradt in the city of Maastricht,South Limburg, Netherlands. The date is c. 550-625 CE, when the Roman villa had already been abandoned for centuries.
Based on Y-STRs, the predictions are as follows:
N15 J2a1b-M67 99%
20 J2b-M102 100% (probably M241)
N18 possibly is J2a(a1b1-M92)

Who were these Merovingian Era men, from c. 550-625 CE?
Consider that they were buried with horse sacrifices, and many personal objects including weapons, and pots with food offerings, at a time when the Roman Empire had been officially fully Christianized since 394 CE. There was only one group of people in this small region of Europe, formerly within the borders of the Roman Empire, where some had resisted Christianization at this late period: The Salian Franks. The Salian Franks had spent centuries along the right bank of the Maas/Meuse River and the Rhine, before moving southward under their king Childeric I (c. 457-481 CE) son of Meroweg, before conquering Gaul under Clovis (Latin: Chlodovechus, Frankish: *Hlodowig, German: Ludwig, French: Louis, Dutch: Lodewijk, c. 466 - c. 511, ruled 481-511 CE). He conquered the last province of the Western Roman Empire at the Battle of Soissons (486) and converted to Catholicism in 496 CE. He assumed the title "King of the Franks" in 509 CE. Clovis is regarded as the first King of France, and the founder of the French Nation.