PDA

View Full Version : What is South East Eurasian?



Pages : [1] 2

Lara101
10-29-2017, 08:45 PM
This is a very big genetic component in most South Asians. Is this ASI/Andamanese/Onge or more Papuan/Oceania/Australian Aborignal realated?

South Asians are interesting Hybrid of two main very different peoples. One being closely realated to Steppes/European/Middle Eastern people. The other being realted to the vary first people who left Africa, who populated south/south east asia

JerryS.
10-29-2017, 09:49 PM
tagged.

bmoney
10-29-2017, 11:55 PM
Yes would be interested if anyone knows the breakdown of this component

Lara101
10-30-2017, 05:39 PM
Yes would be interested if anyone knows the breakdown of this component

Onge and Papuan are the closes to ASI I think.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-30-2017, 06:15 PM
Onge and Papuan are the closes to ASI I think.

not Papuan but Onge and South east asian like. Keep in mind ASI is very minor in majority of South Asians now, usually around 10-25% depending on the region.

Lara101
10-30-2017, 06:57 PM
not Papuan but Onge and South east asian like. Keep in mind ASI is very minor in majority of South Asians now, usually around 10-25% depending on the region.

Other than ASI what is there? I would think average south asians are 50/50 between European/Steppe ancestry and South east Eurasian and also south east asian is basically related to ancient Oceanic people I presume like Papuan, Aborignals, melenasians etc..., modern south east asians have mixed with Chinese and others from north a lot

MonkeyDLuffy
10-30-2017, 07:19 PM
Other than ASI what is there? I would think average south asians are 50/50 between European/Steppe ancestry and South east Eurasian and also south east asian is basically related to ancient Oceanic people I presume like Papuan, Aborignals, melenasians etc..., modern south east asians have mixed with Chinese and others from north a lot

ANE/Steppe, Farmers, WHG etc. Not even the tribals would be 50/50%. Maybe some, but aside from tribals, none. We always forget to address that South Asia is a huge subcontinent, almost the size of europe:

https://i.imgur.com/9zPjlwL.png

we didn't have invasions from east asia because of Himalayas, but we did have multiple invasions and migrations from west asia and central asia. Keep in mind that ASI migration was only once, but West Asian migrations were multiple. So it would be close to impossible for South Asians to be 50/50. The ASI indeed increase as you go south and east in the subcontinent. All south asians are not same, it's like saying an Italian and Nordic or russian is same.

Lara101
10-30-2017, 08:46 PM
ANE/Steppe, Farmers, WHG etc. Not even the tribals would be 50/50%. Maybe some, but aside from tribals, none. We always forget to address that South Asia is a huge subcontinent, almost the size of europe:

https://i.imgur.com/9zPjlwL.png

we didn't have invasions from east asia because of Himalayas, but we did have multiple invasions and migrations from west asia and central asia. Keep in mind that ASI migration was only once, but West Asian migrations were multiple. So it would be close to impossible for South Asians to be 50/50. The ASI indeed increase as you go south and east in the subcontinent. All south asians are not same, it's like saying an Italian and Nordic or russian is same.

Not all south asians are same, I agree, obviously people in the north west like Kashmiries, Jatts, Gujjars, Pakistani groups etc... will be more Steppe related then South East Eurasian, you can tell that by just looking at them. However deeper in to India and especially South India, I have strong doubts they will be more steppes then South East Eurasian, are there any results from regular non brahmin tamils? Even many regular UPites where I am from are very dark looking, obviously because they are more native to India. My family is from UP India, My father side is pretty dark on average, some of of them can easily fit in Tamil Nadu, my mom side is lighter, they actually look Nepali Pahari type, they are from central UP not far from Nepal. The odd thing though is, my dad side is Q1B, which is a central asian haplogroup

MonkeyDLuffy
10-30-2017, 09:06 PM
Now you are bringing Physical appearance with genetics. A Punjabi jatt can look like a Tamil (plenty of them do) but will have genetics like other Punjabi jatts. Steppe is not the only ancestry we have, we have farmers as well. A south Indian like Aishwarya rai can be really light but have same genetics like her community. Check out results of Indians and Pakistanis in Kurd's K12 thread, we have Kerela nair and even he doesnt score more than 30% south eurasian.

Lara101
10-30-2017, 11:17 PM
Now you are bringing Physical appearance with genetics. A Punjabi jatt can look like a Tamil (plenty of them do) but will have genetics like other Punjabi jatts. Steppe is not the only ancestry we have, we have farmers as well. A south Indian like Aishwarya rai can be really light but have same genetics like her community. Check out results of Indians and Pakistanis in Kurd's K12 thread, we have Kerela nair and even he doesnt score more than 30% south eurasian.

But even punjabis are scoring 23-25% South east eurasian. How in the world would south indians only score 6-7% more south east eurasian then NW south asians. Something does not make sense. Also darker punjabies do not look south indian. Do you have link to that spread sheet?

bmoney
10-30-2017, 11:37 PM
But even punjabis are scoring 23-25% South east eurasian. How in the world would south indians only score 6-7% more south east eurasian then NW south asians. Something does not make sense. Also darker punjabies do not look south indian. Do you have link to that spread sheet?

You're right to be doubtful - only higher caste (Brahmin) or west coastal south Indians (Karnataka Mangalore etc) score in the low 20s and early 30s

Generally south Indians score 20% more SE Eurasian than Punjabis and low caste south Indians (who form the vast majority of south India numerically) would be 50% or more which would put them 30% higher than Punjabis, making them more genetically distant than a modern Iranian to a Punjabi.

Having said that I'm interested in the admixture of people from UP and Bihar who are not Brahmin - I have seen UP/Biharies throughout my life in north and south India and can say they can comfortably fit in south India from just a skin colour perspective (features are different)

I expect their SE Eurasian to be in the 35-50 range - Bengalis (Bangladesh) on the forum score near 50%

TJRocks760
10-30-2017, 11:57 PM
Now you are bringing Physical appearance with genetics. A Punjabi jatt can look like a Tamil (plenty of them do) but will have genetics like other Punjabi jatts. Steppe is not the only ancestry we have, we have farmers as well. A south Indian like Aishwarya rai can be really light but have same genetics like her community. Check out results of Indians and Pakistanis in Kurd's K12 thread, we have Kerela nair and even he doesnt score more than 30% south eurasian.

I was glancing through the K12 and just uploaded my data on Geneplaza. I'm curious I know Kurd didn't directly identify this but one of the things with Harappa tests or other Gedmatch tests was that they would show a South Indian component. In this test, what would the "south indian" component be? If I'm asking this correctly. Apologies if I don't make sense.

Lara101
10-31-2017, 01:18 PM
You're right to be doubtful - only higher caste (Brahmin) or west coastal south Indians (Karnataka Mangalore etc) score in the low 20s and early 30s

Generally south Indians score 20% more SE Eurasian than Punjabis and low caste south Indians (who form the vast majority of south India numerically) would be 50% or more which would put them 30% higher than Punjabis, making them more genetically distant than a modern Iranian to a Punjabi.

Having said that I'm interested in the admixture of people from UP and Bihar who are not Brahmin - I have seen UP/Biharies throughout my life in north and south India and can say they can comfortably fit in south India from just a skin colour perspective (features are different)

I expect their SE Eurasian to be in the 35-50 range - Bengalis (Bangladesh) on the forum score near 50%


^ exactly, that makes more sense, I read some where that the lowest Steepe/West Eurasian farmers was found in some south indian tribe at 18% only, so clearly the other 82% of their dna must be SEU mostly. Generally, most average indians will have 40-60% SEU, with tribals even more. Only certian NW Indic groups will have 20-30% on average. I think these number are very similar to the Reich ANI/ASI from 2009, maybe at that point he included every thing SEU related as ASI.

BTW how much SEU do Onge have? any idea?

redifflal
10-31-2017, 03:51 PM
Onge and Ancestral South Indian or Ancestral South Eurasian diverged at almost 40000 years ago, within a couple thousand years of the Onge+ASI common root diverging from the common root for West Eurasians. Onge were used as a proxy for ASI in admixture models because ASI doesn't exist in any modern populations nor do we have any ancient samples from subcontinent.

I'll use Khanabdoshi's analogy here. If an admixture model were to take an Eskimo from Alaska and model his DNA under an admixture model with two parent samples, one West African and one East African, the admixture model is not going to give 0% for both. It has to still add up to 100. So our Eskimo individual would probably show up as 95% East African and 5% West African.

So the percentage ranges you're arguing about depends on the fidelity of the parent populations being used and relevance to the individual whose data is being crunched. Whether ASI is 60% in southern tribals and 20% in Punjab, or it is 40% in southern ST and 5% in Punjab, it all depends on which model was used. Either way, you're correct on your conclusion that the delta in the ASI between southern ST and Punjab or UP/Bihar FC is in the 30-40% range.

I had a low fidelity admixture analysis run by genographic. I am half Kayastha from eastern UP (Saxena, Srivastav, Mathur etc) and half Brahmin from West Bengal g Banerjee, Chatterjee, Mukherjee etc). Mine came out as 26% ASI, 55% ANI, 13% med farmer, 4% steppe. My wife is from Punjab, half Khatri Hindu and half Jatt Sikh. Her ANI was 50%, her med farmer and ASI percentages are basically flipped from mine, and steppe was like 6%. Nothing earth shattering in these numbers. Basically if everyone uses the same model then you can compare apples to apples. Otherwise you'll be getting all confused.

MonkeyDLuffy
10-31-2017, 04:18 PM
^ exactly, that makes more sense, I read some where that the lowest Steepe/West Eurasian farmers was found in some south indian tribe at 18% only, so clearly the other 82% of their dna must be SEU mostly. Generally, most average indians will have 40-60% SEU, with tribals even more. Only certian NW Indic groups will have 20-30% on average. I think these number are very similar to the Reich ANI/ASI from 2009, maybe at that point he included every thing SEU related as ASI.

BTW how much SEU do Onge have? any idea?

Again you keep forgetting the farmers and whg. Steppe is not the ONLY west eurasian component we have.

jesus
10-31-2017, 04:31 PM
South Indian tribals should have less than 18% steppe. It's just ANE noise that gets mistaken ass steppe in some tools. Same reason why afghans were modeled as 60-70% steppe initially.

Lara101
10-31-2017, 04:32 PM
Again you keep forgetting the farmers and whg. Steppe is not the ONLY west eurasian component we have.

Yeah I know, I am including them when i say steppe/West Eurasian. My focus in this thread is on SEE, because i find these people very interesting, since they make a huge component in south asians, yet very little is known about them. They are mostly likely one of the first people Out of Africa

Lara101
10-31-2017, 04:34 PM
South Indian tribals should have less than 18% steppe. It's just ANE noise that gets mistaken ass steppe in some tools. Same reason why afghans were modeled as 60-70% steppe initially.

Not sure, but yeah majority of their dna is SEE

Lara101
10-31-2017, 04:37 PM
Onge and Ancestral South Indian or Ancestral South Eurasian diverged at almost 40000 years ago, within a couple thousand years of the Onge+ASI common root diverging from the common root for West Eurasians. Onge were used as a proxy for ASI in admixture models because ASI doesn't exist in any modern populations nor do we have any ancient samples from subcontinent.

I'll use Khanabdoshi's analogy here. If an admixture model were to take an Eskimo from Alaska and model his DNA under an admixture model with two parent samples, one West African and one East African, the admixture model is not going to give 0% for both. It has to still add up to 100. So our Eskimo individual would probably show up as 95% East African and 5% West African.

So the percentage ranges you're arguing about depends on the fidelity of the parent populations being used and relevance to the individual whose data is being crunched. Whether ASI is 60% in southern tribals and 20% in Punjab, or it is 40% in southern ST and 5% in Punjab, it all depends on which model was used. Either way, you're correct on your conclusion that the delta in the ASI between southern ST and Punjab or UP/Bihar FC is in the 30-40% range.

I had a low fidelity admixture analysis run by genographic. I am half Kayastha from eastern UP (Saxena, Srivastav, Mathur etc) and half Brahmin from West Bengal g Banerjee, Chatterjee, Mukherjee etc). Mine came out as 26% ASI, 55% ANI, 13% med farmer, 4% steppe. My wife is from Punjab, half Khatri Hindu and half Jatt Sikh. Her ANI was 50%, her med farmer and ASI percentages are basically flipped from mine, and steppe was like 6%. Nothing earth shattering in these numbers. Basically if everyone uses the same model then you can compare apples to apples. Otherwise you'll be getting all confused.

They may have separated early, though there are some theories which say Andmanese migrated from India just 10000 years ago to the islands

Anyways point being they are related, because back then there was no mixing India from West Eurasia. The mixing in India only started some 4000 years ago

redifflal
10-31-2017, 04:48 PM
No, ANI is a West Eurasian branch that has been inside India from 20,000 years ago coexisting with ASI, possibly in different ends of subcontinent. So West Eurasian as a whole is very old in subcontinent and pre IVC. There was never a time when whole subcontinent was fully ASI. West Eurasian got reinforced over time from the northwest by wheat farmers and steppe nomads. South Eurasian also got reinforced from southeast by rice farmers.

Lara101
10-31-2017, 05:00 PM
No, ANI is a West Eurasian branch that has been inside India from 20,000 years ago coexisting with ASI, possibly in different ends of subcontinent. So West Eurasian as a whole is very old in subcontinent and pre IVC. There was never a time when whole subcontinent was fully ASI. West Eurasian got reinforced over time from the northwest by wheat farmers and steppe nomads. South Eurasian also got reinforced from southeast by rice farmers.

Where are you getting this number 20,000 years? The paper that came out in 2013 clearly showed that Indians mixed mostly between 1900-4200 years ago, Indian genetics before that was vastly different from today, also how can two very different population exist side by side for 15000 years, doesn't make sense at all, The west eurasian invasions started some 4000 years ago, perhaps a little before that, the invasions and migration is what changed indian genetics

redifflal
10-31-2017, 05:01 PM
Yeah I know, I am including them when i say steppe/West Eurasian. My focus in this thread is on SEE, because i find these people very interesting, since they make a huge component in south asians, yet very little is known about them. They are mostly likely one of the first people Out of Africa

This two waves out of Africa theory is no longer valid. All non Africans are from one out of Africa event population. Different tracks over Eurasia for this population probably happened somewhere in between coastal Arabia to coastal India.

redifflal
10-31-2017, 05:05 PM
Where are you getting this number 20,000 years? The paper that came out in 2013 clearly showed that Indians mixed mostly between 1900-4200 years ago, Indian genetics before that was vastly different from today, also how can two very different population exist side by side for 15000 years, doesn't make sense at all, The west eurasian invasions started some 4000 years ago, perhaps a little before that, the invasions and migration is what changed indian genetics

That same paper also said that ANI had separated from its closest other West Eurasian populations 20k ybp. Indian subcontinent is a large place. It's not really side by side if one group is sitting in Indus valley and other is sitting in Orissa and Bengal. And the whole Gangetic plain is dense forests.

Reza
10-31-2017, 05:34 PM
You're right to be doubtful - only higher caste (Brahmin) or west coastal south Indians (Karnataka Mangalore etc) score in the low 20s and early 30s

Generally south Indians score 20% more SE Eurasian than Punjabis and low caste south Indians (who form the vast majority of south India numerically) would be 50% or more which would put them 30% higher than Punjabis, making them more genetically distant than a modern Iranian to a Punjabi.

Having said that I'm interested in the admixture of people from UP and Bihar who are not Brahmin - I have seen UP/Biharies throughout my life in north and south India and can say they can comfortably fit in south India from just a skin colour perspective (features are different)

I expect their SE Eurasian to be in the 35-50 range - Bengalis (Bangladesh) on the forum score near 50%

If referring to Kurd's K12 calculator, the SE Eurasian would also includes modern East Asian affinity as well as a surrogate for ASI.

With Bangladeshis, at least 10% of that SE Eurasian would be in keeping with known East Asian admixture (as a general rule).

Agree that non brahmin admixture results from the bulk of north-central India would be fascinating. We seem to have a decent spread from various parts of the peripheries of the subcontinent but few and far in between.

Reza
10-31-2017, 05:45 PM
Sein ran these models in the comments of Davidski's blog. Interesting from an ASI modelling point of view.

Bengali - Reza Mother:

39.50% Iran_Neolithic
30.75% ASI
22.90% Srubnaya_outlier
6.85% Dai

Distance=0.1586

UP_Brahmin

41.60% Iran_Neolithic
25.20% Srubnaya_outlier + 7.35% Srubnaya
25.85% ASI

Distance=0.4946

GujaratiA

43.9% Iran_Neolithic
23.6% Srubnaya_outlier + 12.2% Srubnaya
20.3% ASI

Distance=0.5074

Sindhi

51.00% Iran_Neolithic + 1.25% Iran_Chalcolithic
15.00% Srubnaya_outlier + 14.15% Srubnaya
18.60% ASI

Distance=0.4764

Kalash

43.65% Iran_Neolithic + 4.80% Iran_Chalcolithic
28.75% Srubnaya_outlier + 13.05% Srubnaya
9.75% ASI

Distance=0.282

Iranian South Central Asians:

Pakistani Pashtun, KPK

39.5% Iran_Neolithic + 13.2% Iran_Chalcolithic
20.8% Srubnaya_outlier + 12.6% Srubnaya
13.9% ASI

Distance=0.3096

Pakistani Pashtun, FATA (north)

32.40% Iran_Chalcolithic + 20.35% Iran_Neolithic
25.80% Srubnaya_outlier + 8.65% Srubnaya
12.80% ASI

Distance=0.2442

Me

31.4% Iran_Chalcolithic + 24.9% Iran_Neolithic
29.6% Srubnaya_outlier + 2.2% Scythian_Pazyryk
11.9% ASI

Distance=0.1997

Pakistani Pashtun, FATA (south)

34.95% Iran_Chalcolithic + 17.00% Iran_Neolithic
22.40% Srubnaya_outlier + 16.20% Srubnaya
9.20% ASI
0.25% Mongola

Distance=0.2042

Afghan Pashtun (Ghazni and Paktika)

29.7% Iran_Chalcolithic + 24.9% Iran_Neolithic
25.6% Srubnaya_outlier + 10.4% Srubnaya
9.3% ASI

Distance=0.2485

Tajik_Shugnan

32.20% Srubnaya_outlier + 19.25% Srubnaya
35.25% Iran_Chalcolithic + 6.05% Iran_Neolithic
5.50% ASI
1.75% Mongola

Distance=0.1009

Lara101
10-31-2017, 06:08 PM
That same paper also said that ANI had separated from its closest other West Eurasian populations 20k ybp. Indian subcontinent is a large place. It's not really side by side if one group is sitting in Indus valley and other is sitting in Orissa and Bengal. And the whole Gangetic plain is dense forests.

Again, where is this coming from? what historical proof is there that ANI and ASI existed side by side in south asia for 15000 years, even if on the other sides of the subcontinent, to me you are just pushing the out of India theory. We all know that the West Eurasian genes in south asians are recent from Steppes/Central Asia/Middle East etc.... with in the last 4000 years, historically majority of invasions have happend in the last 4000 years

redifflal
10-31-2017, 06:22 PM
How is it pushing out of India theory? Out of India is concerned with PIE originating in India. I agree with Kurgan hypothesis as far as PIE goes. All I'm saying is that there was a West Eurasian branch in Indian subcontinent from Paleolithic timeframe, along with ASI. ANI is separated from rest of West Eurasians 20k ybp, that doesn't happen without geographical separation. With fall of IVC and genesis of Vedic civilization, you have your ANI-ASI admixture in the Gangetic plains as ANI and ASI meet there 4k ybp.

Lara101
10-31-2017, 06:49 PM
How is it pushing out of India theory? Out of India is concerned with PIE originating in India. I agree with Kurgan hypothesis as far as PIE goes. All I'm saying is that there was a West Eurasian branch in Indian subcontinent from Paleolithic timeframe, along with ASI. ANI is separated from rest of West Eurasians 20k ybp, that doesn't happen without geographical separation. With fall of IVC and genesis of Vedic civilization, you have your ANI-ASI admixture in the Gangetic plains as ANI and ASI meet there 4k ybp.


No proof though, nobody has heard of that theory, also not sure how relevant ANI is anymore, since that paper is old now. All these guys over here are using latest calculators showing their steppe and west eurasian farmers ancestry, there is no ANI mentioned anywhere.

DMXX
10-31-2017, 06:55 PM
One has to consider that the ancestral population admixture dates are based on statistical calculations. For lack of a better phrase, computer modelling. The dates should be considered a work in progress and one must not become ideologically or conceptually anchored to earlier models, particularly when there is insufficient evidence that then newer models are less likely than their predecessors.

The ANI-ASI dichotomy is currently outdated. Lazaridis et al. revealed there's West Eurasian ancestry present throughout the Subcontinent (but we've known that since Reich et al.). The two major sources of ancestry appear to be something related to Iran_N and something that appears related to the EMBA steppe. There does not appear to be any strong correlation between the two, with the exception of both peaking in the northwest.
We had no reason to suspect the entirety of the West Eurasian component in modern Subcontinentals could be approximated by a homogeneous "ANI" component. That was a basic modelling starting point by Reich et al. in 2009. We didn't even know what ANE was then.

If one visualises Iran_N, EMBA steppe and ASI in a phylogenetic tree, one can appreciate why it appeared that an "ANI" monolith was present in the Subcontinent's north (ASI is quite radically different from the other two, which happen to share similar streams of ancestry themselves through a Villabruna-like and Basal Eurasian component; pure ASI likely didn't have either to any appreciable degree). We lacked the aDNA to tease out the affinities. Populations like Georgians appeared to approximate it best superficially because they were, in basic terms, a combination of something Iran_N-like (CHG) and something W. Eurasian steppe.

Calculations from our members here demonstrate there's a surplus in ANE in the Subcontinent that isn't fully explained by the cryptic ANE present within Iran_N and EMBA steppe, but that would be better described as North Eurasian.

Just a prediction, but the odds are looking quite good that we'll first find Iran_N in the IVC and entering the Subcontinent in the early Neolithic, followed by a second pulse of Iran_N alongside EMBA steppe during the Iron Age. I'm not the only one in this realm holding that prediction. I also expect us to find the source of that ANE surplus through ANE-rich paleolithic incomers carrying Y-DNA R2a and mtDNA U2 (i.e. they'll precede the first wave of Iran_N farmers).

[Edit]: Just saw Sein's numbers. Looking very good. Along the lines of what several of us have guesstimated for a while (they're also in line with some qpAdm stats I've seen recently).

redifflal
10-31-2017, 07:15 PM
Dmxx, thanks for the post. Can you spell out EMBA for me, and translate the Paleolithic incomers rich in ANE and haps R2a and U2 into pre IVC existence of West Eurasian DNA inside subcontinent for OP here so he's not accusing me of peddling bs.

Problem is we have ancient samples of West Eurasian DNA from outside the subcontinent, but none that is subcontinent specific (west or south Eurasian). So obviously as of now everything will look like sourced from Neolithic Iran and steppe, and then the plus some is a huge gray area. We really need the Rakhigarhi samples out so we can rehash all this stuff once again.

DMXX
10-31-2017, 07:37 PM
Absolutely correct. We have no aDNA from SC Asia, even. We can reasonably model the West Eurasian components right now, but anything specific to the subcontinent (including the nature of the ANE surplus) is estimated using sub-par workarounds (f.ex. Onge, Paniya, Dai for ASI, Mal'ta/AG3 for ANE).



Can you spell out EMBA for me


EMBA is the Early-Middle Bronze Age in the West Eurasian steppes. All the samples we have from that time (either from traditional Yamnaya sites or Khvalynsk) are the same combination of EHG and CHG (latter seems to increase over time, but they're more EHG than CHG overall).



and translate the Paleolithic incomers rich in ANE and haps R2a and U2 into pre IVC existence of West Eurasian DNA inside subcontinent

The ANE-rich paleolithic incomers I'm speculating we'll see with the aforementioned uniparentals would technically count as North Eurasians rather than West. In any case, they would probably be one of the earliest (if not the earliest recorded) Eurasian introduction to the Subcontinent from the northwest.

After they arrive and intermingle with the autochthonous Subcontinental population (whom we can assume would be near-entirely "ASI"*), we will likely see Iran_N frequencies rising with time, as West Asian agriculture takes a hold in the region. The IVC, per the above, will probably look like a combination of "ASI", surplus ANE and Iran_N.

Finally, there will be a sharp introduction of EMBA steppe (early Indo-Aryan) in the region dating to the Iron Age, likely associated with some additional Iran_N (BMAC derived).

The solidification of the caste system, which I believe took place during the Gupta period, would have minimised social mobility, leading to a crystallisation of the migrational or regional events that took place in India following the dispersal of the late Indo-Aryans.

The above is my particular interpretation of the circumstantial genetic data and the archaeology, but I don't think aDNA will show anything that will deviate too strongly from the above.

[Edit]: *quotation marks used per the reason explained in the post below.

bmoney
10-31-2017, 11:18 PM
One has to consider that the ancestral population admixture dates are based on statistical calculations. For lack of a better phrase, computer modelling. The dates should be considered a work in progress and one must not become ideologically or conceptually anchored to earlier models, particularly when there is insufficient evidence that then newer models are less likely than their predecessors.

The ANI-ASI dichotomy is currently outdated. Lazaridis et al. revealed there's West Eurasian ancestry present throughout the Subcontinent (but we've known that since Reich et al.). The two major sources of ancestry appear to be something related to Iran_N and something that appears related to the EMBA steppe. There does not appear to be any strong correlation between the two, with the exception of both peaking in the northwest.
We had no reason to suspect the entirety of the West Eurasian component in modern Subcontinentals could be approximated by a homogeneous "ANI" component. That was a basic modelling starting point by Reich et al. in 2009. We didn't even know what ANE was then.

If one visualises Iran_N, EMBA steppe and ASI in a phylogenetic tree, one can appreciate why it appeared that an "ANI" monolith was present in the Subcontinent's north (ASI is quite radically different from the other two, which happen to share similar streams of ancestry themselves through a Villabruna-like and Basal Eurasian component; pure ASI likely didn't have either to any appreciable degree). We lacked the aDNA to tease out the affinities. Populations like Georgians appeared to approximate it best superficially because they were, in basic terms, a combination of something Iran_N-like (CHG) and something W. Eurasian steppe.

Calculations from our members here demonstrate there's a surplus in ANE in the Subcontinent that isn't fully explained by the cryptic ANE present within Iran_N and EMBA steppe, but that would be better described as North Eurasian.

Just a prediction, but the odds are looking quite good that we'll first find Iran_N in the IVC and entering the Subcontinent in the early Neolithic, followed by a second pulse of Iran_N alongside EMBA steppe during the Iron Age. I'm not the only one in this realm holding that prediction. I also expect us to find the source of that ANE surplus through ANE-rich paleolithic incomers carrying Y-DNA R2a and mtDNA U2 (i.e. they'll precede the first wave of Iran_N farmers).

[Edit]: Just saw Sein's numbers. Looking very good. Along the lines of what several of us have guesstimated for a while (they're also in line with some qpAdm stats I've seen recently).

Nice one

Lara101
11-01-2017, 01:30 AM
Balochistan has a city which 8000 years old. I think that city lies on the indian plate, rather then the iranian, any idea who lived there?

Also DMXX. Going back to original question here. What is breakdown of South East Eurasian? Any Idea?. To understand Indian genetics, we must know more about this component, this is a huge component of Indians after all. This is what us Indians were, before west Eurasian invasions/migrations

bmoney
11-01-2017, 01:49 AM
Balochistan has a city which 8000 years old. I think that city lies on the indian plate, rather then the iranian, any idea who lived there?

Also DMXX. Going back to original question here. What is breakdown of South East Eurasian? Any Idea?. To understand Indian genetics, we must know more about this component, this is a huge component of Indians after all. This is what us Indians were, before west Eurasian invasions/migrations

Balochistan - probably Iran_neolithic or Iran_hotu type peoples, who also lived in the BMAC

I think he said there is no aDNA for this ASI ghost population so theres no data we can speculate on, would be nice if someone were to stumble across some ancient burial site in south India.

In the meantime look at Ust'Ishim man which is probably the most closest genetically from ancient samples

DMXX
11-01-2017, 02:15 AM
bmoney is correct. We sorely need aDNA from South and East Asia to refine our current models. One of the recent studies has confirmed "ENA" (another convention from the landmark WHG-EEF-ANE paper) isn't what we thought it was. I suspect the story in South and East Eurasia will be as complex as what has transpired in the Western half.

A synthetic ASI component can be constructed from a combination of moderns and ancients (I've done this using nMonte data, Dienekes attempted it using modern samples years ago). But they are no substitutes for the real entity. From my fiddling with Davidski's Globe10 data, it appears that ASI occupies some rather unique positions in at least two of the ten dimensions. The Onge (and even Papuans) provide some insight into that, but their highly drifted status and the absence of weighting data for said dimensions means creating an ASI "Frankenstein" cannot take place. One reasonable workaround (which I think Sein might've been employing at Eurogenes) is to use the Paniya as a semi-ASI stand-in and remove the surplus Iran_N-Hotu/CHG.

Generally speaking, "ASI" looks like it shares some deep connections with the Onge, Papuans and mainland SE Asian populations. At this stage, however, after reading more into India's archaeology, I'm somewhat doubtful that an actual "ASI" component exists. The Acheulean period is well over 50kya and there's evidence of strong continuity into the Paleolithic. Much the same way we have "CHG", "Natufian" and "Iran_N" all deriving from a Basal Eurasian-rich parent population... I think we'd be in good stead entertaining the idea that several distinct forms of "ASI" existed across the Subcontinent by the UP. Assuming genetic uniformity across such a large region for over 50kya is pretty unrealistic. The only way this would be feasible among HG's were if a) a technological/environmental change resulted in one HG community replacing the others, or b) there was unprecedented mobility within the Subcontinent, resulting in regional homogenisation. I've never read any evidence indicating either (though I'm no expert). We'll have to wait for aDNA to determine whether my suspicions are confirmed or denied on this point.

I don't see the point in using Ust'Ishim for complex population modelling. Sure, it superficially serves as a proxy for some aspect of ASI per its' position in PCAs, but using a 45kya Siberian to approximate the genetic foundation in a region with upwards of 70kya of continued habitation...

pegasus
11-02-2017, 03:54 AM
Now you are bringing Physical appearance with genetics. A Punjabi jatt can look like a Tamil (plenty of them do) but will have genetics like other Punjabi jatts. Steppe is not the only ancestry we have, we have farmers as well. A south Indian like Aishwarya rai can be really light but have same genetics like her community. Check out results of Indians and Pakistanis in Kurd's K12 thread, we have Kerela nair and even he doesnt score more than 30% south eurasian.

Yes you are right, also it is quite hilarious they make songs about being Jatt but a significant number of them look no different than the Chamars they hate on.
If there is a case where phenotype does not equate to genotype , South Asians are a classic case of it but phenotypic differences reach extreme variations in Hindu Kush populations. A Pakistani friend of mine was sharing this pic of 2 Pathan cousins from Bannu in KPK,Pakistan it pretty much says it all lol.

poi
11-02-2017, 04:20 AM
Yes you are right, also it is quite hilarious they make songs about being Jatt but a significant number of them look no different than the Chamars they hate on.
If there is a case where phenotype does not equate to genotype , South Asians are a classic case of it but phenotypic differences reach extreme variations in Hindu Kush populations. A Pakistani friend of mine was sharing this pic of 2 Pathan cousins from Bannu in KPK,Pakistan it pretty much says it all lol.

Holy crap, Yamnaya and Andronovo together!

DMXX
11-02-2017, 04:23 AM
That picture's a great example. That diversity in phenotype is to be expected anywhere that possesses a diverse history. Even within families whose origins are from fairly similar regions (if not the same region).

For instance, I came across pictures of my paternal grandfather and his brothers several years ago. This is on my Azeri Iranian side. The oldest brother looked rather Eastern European (robust appearance, blue eyes). Middle brother was a bit more typical (long-faced West Asian). The youngest brother, my grandfather, was back in the atypical range (he looked Hazara or Kazakh).

One of the hidden joys of understanding population genetics is that the ethnogenesis of various populations can be appreciated in the context of the visible differences one would observe on a day-to-day basis.

surbakhunWeesste
11-02-2017, 04:25 AM
Yes you are right, also it is quite hilarious they make songs about being Jatt but a significant number of them look no different than the Chamars they hate on.
If there is a case where phenotype does not equate to genotype , South Asians are a classic case of it but phenotypic differences reach extreme variations in Hindu Kush populations. A Pakistani friend of mine was sharing this pic of 2 Pathan cousins from Bannu in KPK,Pakistan it pretty much says it all lol.

TBH, a Pashtun/Pathan/Pakhtun can look like anyone, I have examples within my family as well. But we are Durranis, and it is common for us other than the Alakozai tribe, they have sort of that "Pashtun look" people talk about on forums.But that could just be my family.

surbakhunWeesste
11-02-2017, 04:27 AM
That picture's a great example. That diversity in phenotype is to be expected anywhere that possesses a diverse history. Even within families whose origins are from fairly similar regions (if not the same region).

For instance, I came across pictures of my paternal grandfather and his brothers several years ago. This is on my Azeri Iranian side. The oldest brother looked rather Eastern European (robust appearance, blue eyes). Middle brother was a bit more typical (long-faced West Asian). The youngest brother, my grandfather, was back in the atypical range (he looked Hazara or Kazakh).

One of the hidden joys of understanding population genetics is that the ethnogenesis of various populations can be appreciated in the context of the visible differences one would observe on a day-to-day basis.

My family has people who can be native from Norway to Indonesia. I love it. I might get some major HEAT for this post, oh well. Celebrating diversity with that chunk of steppe can be heavy ;)

DMXX
11-02-2017, 04:29 AM
My family has people who can be native from Norway to Indonesia. I love it. I might get some major HEAT for this post, oh well.

I'm not too sure about Indonesia. A wise person once said Vietnam looks closer.

But we'll allow their posterior eminence serve as a heat source.

pegasus
11-02-2017, 04:45 AM
Holy crap, Yamnaya and Andronovo together!


Actually yeah in Pathans, their Steppe is a combo of earlier Indo Aryan like Yamnaya and later East Iranic Sintashta or MLBA Steppe derived groups, in other Pashtun groups its largely just Sintashta like . But the point of the pic is to show you can be genetically similar like these cousins are and have dramatically different phenotypes.

pegasus
11-02-2017, 04:54 AM
TBH, a Pashtun/Pathan/Pakhtun can look like anyone, I have examples within my family as well. But we are Durranis, and its common for us other than Alakozai tribe, they have sort of that "Pashtun look" people talk about on forums.But that could just be my family.

Yeah but the point was showing genotype does not equate to phenotype in Hindu Kush regions, such dramatic examples can also be extended to Kho, Nuristanis/Kalash, Kohistanis, and even Hindkhowans. Yes Pashtuns in Afghanistan can show a more varied look as some have mixed with Uzbeks, in particular in the North. I was just adding to what Duffy was saying.

bmoney
11-02-2017, 05:13 AM
Yes you are right, also it is quite hilarious they make songs about being Jatt but a significant number of them look no different than the Chamars they hate on.
If there is a case where phenotype does not equate to genotype , South Asians are a classic case of it but phenotypic differences reach extreme variations in Hindu Kush populations. A Pakistani friend of mine was sharing this pic of 2 Pathan cousins from Bannu in KPK,Pakistan it pretty much says it all lol.

Thats insane... yeah that steppe area has seen a lot of migration and admixture

Might be that some allelles are silenced or expressed in close relatives

Genetically a Jatt Sikh would be quite distant to a chamar.. but then so would every other non Chamar Sikh castes to chamars

To me you cant tell a Sikh caste from looking at them but Jatts on average tend to have more prominent Gedrosian Baluch features which in Oz we call wog looking/Iranian whereas Khatris/Kapoors etc tend to look more Brahmin Indo-Aryan type with less facial hair and smaller features.

My very blunt Sikh mate used to differentiate by calling the latter 'Hindu looking' and the former 'Punjabi looking'

From Sapporos CHG numbers in K9ASI as well as a recent Y-dna study on Jatts that could be due to actual ancestry

Reza
11-02-2017, 05:20 AM
A back-to-basics question so forgive me, but do Sikhs actually score differently to Muslims and/or Hindus when comparing within Punjabi castes?

I've heard that Muslim Punjabis have perhaps been more 'mixed' across caste lines over a historical time period, but is there such a thing as a Jatt Sikh genotype vs a Jatt Hindu one? Has there been that much endogamy over the past 400 years to really account for that or are we just being loose with the terms?

pegasus
11-02-2017, 07:09 AM
South Indian tribals should have less than 18% steppe. It's just ANE noise that gets mistaken ass steppe in some tools. Same reason why afghans were modeled as 60-70% steppe initially.

IF any at all. In the new tree mix models they score 0.

pnb123
11-02-2017, 07:18 AM
Thats insane... yeah that steppe area has seen a lot of migration and admixture

Might be that some allelles are silenced or expressed in close relatives

Genetically a Jatt Sikh would be quite distant to a chamar.. but then so would every other non Chamar Sikh castes to chamars

To me you cant tell a Sikh caste from looking at them but Jatts on average tend to have more prominent Gedrosian Baluch features which in Oz we call wog looking/Iranian whereas Khatris/Kapoors etc tend to look more Brahmin Indo-Aryan type with less facial hair and smaller features.

My very blunt Sikh mate used to differentiate by calling the latter 'Hindu looking' and the former 'Punjabi looking'

From Sapporos CHG numbers in K9ASI as well as a recent Y-dna study on Jatts that could be due to actual ancestry

I think Khatris and Jatts are scoring similarly. But I guess Khatri types look more like Bollywood types (not too gracile not too robust), but Jatts look more of rugged types.

pegasus
11-02-2017, 07:23 AM
A back-to-basics question so forgive me, but do Sikhs actually score differently to Muslims and/or Hindus when comparing within Punjabi castes?

I've heard that Muslim Punjabis have perhaps been more 'mixed' across caste lines over a historical time period, but is there such a thing as a Jatt Sikh genotype vs a Jatt Hindu one? Has there been that much endogamy over the past 400 years to really account for that or are we just being loose with the terms?

Sikhs from my observation and understanding and reading are largely derived from 3 groups, Jats, non Jat Sikh groups, and Chamars, the middle group largely descend from what are mid to upper caste Hindu Punjabis ( Khatris/ Aroras ie Bappas , Kalals, Kambojs, Ramgarhias , as well Brahmins). Interestingly the Punjabi Muslim Sethi/ Sheikh/Khatris are xerox copies of their Hindu/Sikh counter parts, but the Muslim Jats do differ from Jat Sikhs, in having less Steppe and being more Zagrosian and ASI shifted. As for other groups, perhaps other members can chime in.

Another thing , is the Pakistani Punjab shows more diversity because its much larger and has more distinct dialects. Another thing, there has been a fairly large demic diffusion of ethnic Pathans ( Niazi, Lodhi, Bangash) settling in Northern Punjab areas like Mianwali for the past several hundred years and newer Pashto speaking Khattak ,Afridis , Shenwaris entering the region.

TJRocks760
11-02-2017, 12:58 PM
Thats insane... yeah that steppe area has seen a lot of migration and admixture

Might be that some allelles are silenced or expressed in close relatives

Genetically a Jatt Sikh would be quite distant to a chamar.. but then so would every other non Chamar Sikh castes to chamars

To me you cant tell a Sikh caste from looking at them but Jatts on average tend to have more prominent Gedrosian Baluch features which in Oz we call wog looking/Iranian whereas Khatris/Kapoors etc tend to look more Brahmin Indo-Aryan type with less facial hair and smaller features.

My very blunt Sikh mate used to differentiate by calling the latter 'Hindu looking' and the former 'Punjabi looking'

From Sapporos CHG numbers in K9ASI as well as a recent Y-dna study on Jatts that could be due to actual ancestry

It's really tough for me to visualize the different looks of the people that have been mentioned. Can you post some pix to demonstrate differences if it's not a bother?

Also, are there any studies measuring the morphology of these aforementioned groups? And would the skull shape be any different?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-02-2017, 03:22 PM
Sikhs from my observation and understanding and reading are largely derived from 3 groups, Jats, non Jat Sikh groups, and Chamars, the middle group largely descend from what are mid to upper caste Hindu Punjabis ( Khatris/ Aroras ie Bappas , Kalals, Kambojs, Ramgarhias , as well Brahmins). Interestingly the Punjabi Muslim Sethi/ Sheikh/Khatris are xerox copies of their Hindu/Sikh counter parts, but the Muslim Jats do differ from Jat Sikhs, in having less Steppe and being more Zagrosian and ASI shifted. As for other groups, perhaps other members can chime in.

Another thing , is the Pakistani Punjab shows more diversity because its much larger and has more distinct dialects. Another thing, there has been a fairly large demic diffusion of ethnic Pathans ( Niazi, Lodhi, Bangash) settling in Northern Punjab areas like Mianwali for the past several hundred years and newer Pashto speaking Khattak ,Afridis , Shenwaris entering the region.

I agree, but what always surprises me is the difference between Haryana/Rajasthani Hi du jats and Punjabi Sikh jatts. They look different, even score differently. Haryana jats seem to score less Middle eastern/SW asian kind of mixture while Punjabi jatts have more Baloch kind of mixture. Even the Ydna of Haryana jatts is R1a in general.

parasar
11-02-2017, 03:48 PM
It's really tough for me to visualize the different looks of the people that have been mentioned. Can you post some pix to demonstrate differences if it's not a bother?

Also, are there any studies measuring the morphology of these aforementioned groups? And would the skull shape be any different?

I wouldn't bother. They are not that different. For eg. Jats were physical agricultural folk and Kayaths intellectual scribes so certain phenotypes may have been selected for differently, but give a few generations in a common occupational pool and these differences will fade.

My own thinking is that the R1a1 folk must have been an agricultural people to so rapidly expand in eastern Europe and southern Asia. It is difficult to imagine them as some marauding steppe Hun type (who left little genetic impact). Supposedly the Ugrics referred to them as slaves. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja

IMO: "Much of the folk living today have their farming ancestors to thank in the past 5000years rather than some marauding, pillaging barbarian or a ruling class."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=64886&viewfull=1#post64886

Zayd
11-02-2017, 04:21 PM
Without any aDNA from subcontinent , It is more reasonable to say South Asians are around 80% ANI-ASI combination and the rest is West Eurasian shifted in the NW, East Eurasian shifted in the East and South Eurasian shifted in the south.

There is an immense diversity in Bengalis look as well, My dad got mistaken as "south" Italian in occasions by native Italians.
In the genotype-phenotype correlation the sampling variance is a major issue as only a few genes are responsible for determining looks.That's what Razib responded me when I asked why Bangladeshis can look so diverse despite being very homogenous in term of consistent "ANI-ASI-East Asian".
The paleolithic inhabitant of Bengal possibly were ASI-(ANI?) then with Austroasiatic rice farmers migration they formed Santhals and i'm sure the bulk of ASI and SE Asian modern Bengalis got are from Santhals.Now the question is when ANI ancestors of Proto-Bengalis moved to Bengal and formed a Proto-Bengali race? Could've been there another paleolithic or atleast pre-IVC migration toward Bengal, but from the west bringing ANI(alongside ASI they got during the journey) components and forming proto-Bengalis? Later Indo-Aryans brought ulterior western Eurasian components and Sino-Tibetan tribes brought some NE Asian components to form modern Bengalis. or Maybe there were simply post IVC Dravidian and indo Aryan migration toward Bengal? Hope Rakhigarhi DNA can explain these gaps.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-02-2017, 08:53 PM
My family has people who can be native from Norway to Indonesia. I love it. I might get some major HEAT for this post, oh well. Celebrating diversity with that chunk of steppe can be heavy ;)

Tell me about it, I have relatives who look indonesian/japanese/Persian/Dirty blonde and they probably score same as me and other Ramgarhias.

bmoney
11-02-2017, 11:20 PM
I wouldn't bother. They are not that different. For eg. Jats were physical agricultural folk and Kayaths intellectual scribes so certain phenotypes may have been selected for differently, but give a few generations in a common occupational pool and these differences will fade.

My own thinking is that the R1a1 folk must have been an agricultural people to so rapidly expand in eastern Europe and southern Asia. It is difficult to imagine them as some marauding steppe Hun type (who left little genetic impact). Supposedly the Ugrics referred to them as slaves. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja

IMO: "Much of the folk living today have their farming ancestors to thank in the past 5000years rather than some marauding, pillaging barbarian or a ruling class."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=64886&viewfull=1#post64886

Agree, but its not negligible - the CHG/Iran_N segment admixture would be different between a UP Kayasth and a Jatt Sikh even if EHG levels are similar

The examples below are speculation, but IMO on average this is the difference in phenotype. I'm just comparing Punjabis here, UP Kayasth would be quite different

Rishi Kapoor - Indo-Aryan
19516

Monty Panesar (Sikh Ramgarhia) - Gedrosian - this is a distinct Indian Punjab phenotype
19517

bmoney
11-02-2017, 11:30 PM
Without any aDNA from subcontinent , It is more reasonable to say South Asians are around 80% ANI-ASI combination and the rest is West Eurasian shifted in the NW, East Eurasian shifted in the East and South Eurasian shifted in the south.

There is an immense diversity in Bengalis look as well, My dad got mistaken as "south" Italian in occasions by native Italians.
In the genotype-phenotype correlation the sampling variance is a major issue as only a few genes are responsible for determining looks.That's what Razib responded me when I asked why Bangladeshis can look so diverse despite being very homogenous in term of consistent "ANI-ASI-East Asian".
The paleolithic inhabitant of Bengal possibly were ASI-(ANI?) then with Austroasiatic rice farmers migration they formed Santhals and i'm sure the bulk of ASI and SE Asian modern Bengalis got are from Santhals.Now the question is when ANI ancestors of Proto-Bengalis moved to Bengal and formed a Proto-Bengali race? Could've been there another paleolithic or atleast pre-IVC migration toward Bengal, but from the west bringing ANI(alongside ASI they got during the journey) components and forming proto-Bengalis? Later Indo-Aryans brought ulterior western Eurasian components and Sino-Tibetan tribes brought some NE Asian components to form modern Bengalis. or Maybe there were simply post IVC Dravidian and indo Aryan migration toward Bengal? Hope Rakhigarhi DNA can explain these gaps.

This is a tough one - if Dravidians never came to Bengal then it could be Indo-Aryans who brought ANI-ASI + Late Steppe to Bengal which was populated by AA Santhals as you mentioned who had SE Asian DNA + possible ASI + possible E Asian

I also want to know if the E Asian in Bengalis is later Tibeto-Burman admixture or already existed as a component in Santhals - my opinion is the latter as the AAs entered the subcontinent from the South East

bmoney
11-02-2017, 11:36 PM
I wouldn't bother. They are not that different. For eg. Jats were physical agricultural folk and Kayaths intellectual scribes so certain phenotypes may have been selected for differently, but give a few generations in a common occupational pool and these differences will fade.

My own thinking is that the R1a1 folk must have been an agricultural people to so rapidly expand in eastern Europe and southern Asia. It is difficult to imagine them as some marauding steppe Hun type (who left little genetic impact). Supposedly the Ugrics referred to them as slaves. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orja

IMO: "Much of the folk living today have their farming ancestors to thank in the past 5000years rather than some marauding, pillaging barbarian or a ruling class."
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?3433-Waves-of-migration-into-South-Asia&p=64886&viewfull=1#post64886

I think R1a1a domination was definitely was technology mediated - better farming tech or chariots or warfare or cultural tech - they were hugely successful in propagating in non-native lands in South Asia and Western Europe. The IVC guys and Neolithic Europeans already had good agricultural tech though so for me farming doesn't explain R dominance

Alain
11-02-2017, 11:53 PM
Hello the thread is also intended for ancient Southeast Asia?
*

MonkeyDLuffy
11-03-2017, 12:15 AM
Hello the thread is also intended for ancient Southeast Asia?
*

ASI is related to that, so it can be discussed along with it.

Alain
11-03-2017, 12:23 AM
Ok thanks my dad 1,9% Southeast Asia some say the sounds of the Karasuk others of Roma people, the second I think unlikely. Then my dad had also in the modern Calculator Southeast Asia?
*

Zayd
11-03-2017, 04:55 AM
This is a tough one - if Dravidians never came to Bengal then it could be Indo-Aryans who brought ANI-ASI + Late Steppe to Bengal which was populated by AA Santhals as you mentioned who had SE Asian DNA + possible ASI + possible E Asian

I also want to know if the E Asian in Bengalis is later Tibeto-Burman admixture or already existed as a component in Santhals - my opinion is the latter as the AAs entered the subcontinent from the South East

In my opinion Bengal had gene flow from every corner of the subcontinent, one of the main reason is Bengalis have diverse look. Here is a pic of some Bengalis:
19518
In the top and second row Tamim Iqbal,Mashrafe Mortaza ect. looks Baloch/Gedrosia influenced.
The east Asian influenced are Dr.Muhammad Yunus,Shakib Al Hasan(the Eyes),Taskin Ahmed,Mushfiqur Rahim ect.
The Austroasiatic/Santhal inflenced are Number 5 in top row and number 5 in 3rd row.
They are all from middle-upper class background so their autosomal scores should be similar to mine and Reza.

Santhals in harappaworld scores 72-73% S.Indian, 5% Baloch, 15-17% SE Asian,2-3% Papuan and 0-2% NE Asian.That means Bengalis got ASI(maybe some ANI as well) and SE Asian from Santhals, the 5% Baloch in Santhals could be from proto-Bengalis. Bengalis got NE Asian much later from Sino-Tibetan tribes.

kush
11-03-2017, 05:30 AM
.....

Arlus
11-03-2017, 06:36 AM
So that tiny baloch in me is responsible for me being only gorilla in my family? Or is it due to high ASI?

parasar
11-03-2017, 03:46 PM
I think R1a1a domination was definitely was technology mediated - better farming tech or chariots or warfare or cultural tech - they were hugely successful in propagating in non-native lands in South Asia and Western Europe. The IVC guys and Neolithic Europeans already had good agricultural tech though so for me farming doesn't explain R dominance

Later R1a1 and R2 expansion from eastern India - yes possible - as NBPW is quite advanced.

But the PWC (Gharinda to Sravasti, which I think is R1a1 related) culture has nothing to recommend itself. But yes they had iron, so they could clear the heavy Gangetic forest and bring the Ganga Yamuna region under cultivation. That is why I think their expansion is farming related. The bronze cultures just did not have the capacity to clear heavily forested land. They stuck to dry river valleys, or sandy banks and diaras of large rivers.

The material culture is otherwise very poor - nothing of the type described in the Mahabharat which materially is describing the Mauryas and not the Kurus.

Lara101
11-03-2017, 04:50 PM
I doubt sikh Chamars are that genetically that different from Jatts, maybe 5-10% difference at best, but not more then that. I have noticed Punjabi Pakistanis are much more diverse though

MonkeyDLuffy
11-03-2017, 05:35 PM
I doubt sikh Chamars are that genetically that different from Jatts, maybe 5-10% difference at best, but not more then that. I have noticed Punjabi Pakistanis are much more diverse though

I have only seen one sikh chamar result and it was around 42% SI on Harrappa. So there is a good difference. Sikh jatts fall between 27-31% SI. Other Sikhs fall between 30-35% SI. So chamars might be within 39-45% SI bracket. But there will be difference in Baloch/Euro etc as well, as i would expect Chamars to score some east eurasian as well.

But i do agree about diversity in Lehnda (West Punjab), especially if we look at PJL samples.

Lara101
11-03-2017, 07:23 PM
I have only seen one sikh chamar result and it was around 42% SI on Harrappa. So there is a good difference. Sikh jatts fall between 27-31% SI. Other Sikhs fall between 30-35% SI. So chamars might be within 39-45% SI bracket. But there will be difference in Baloch/Euro etc as well, as i would expect Chamars to score some east eurasian as well.

But i do agree about diversity in Lehnda (West Punjab), especially if we look at PJL samples.

One sample doesn't really say much, But yeah in Sikhs the phenotype difference is not much, compared to western punjab. Just seeing Pakistani channels/dramas, you can see that. This is why I think Sikh Chamars will not be much different, yeah maybe 10% at best, I think the difference in Chamars comes in Haryana UP area, where I think Harrapa 25 samples should them to be 66% south indian

MonkeyDLuffy
11-03-2017, 08:24 PM
One sample doesn't really say much, But yeah in Sikhs the phenotype difference is not much, compared to western punjab. Just seeing Pakistani channels/dramas, you can see that. This is why I think Sikh Chamars will not be much different, yeah maybe 10% at best, I think the difference in Chamars comes in Haryana UP area, where I think Harrapa 25 samples should them to be 66% south indian

10% is still a huge difference. And we are just talking about SI right now, not the other components. We have already talked about phenotypes. South Asians can end up look like anything.

bmoney
11-03-2017, 11:05 PM
In my opinion Bengal had gene flow from every corner of the subcontinent, one of the main reason is Bengalis have diverse look. Here is a pic of some Bengalis:
19518
In the top and second row Tamim Iqbal,Mashrafe Mortaza ect. looks Baloch/Gedrosia influenced.
The east Asian influenced are Dr.Muhammad Yunus,Shakib Al Hasan(the Eyes),Taskin Ahmed,Mushfiqur Rahim ect.
The Austroasiatic/Santhal inflenced are Number 5 in top row and number 5 in 3rd row.
They are all from middle-upper class background so their autosomal scores should be similar to mine and Reza.

Santhals in harappaworld scores 72-73% S.Indian, 5% Baloch, 15-17% SE Asian,2-3% Papuan and 0-2% NE Asian.That means Bengalis got ASI(maybe some ANI as well) and SE Asian from Santhals, the 5% Baloch in Santhals could be from proto-Bengalis. Bengalis got NE Asian much later from Sino-Tibetan tribes.

wow thats a lot of difference in phenotype. Though the melting pot ingredients are quite diverse, Bengali Muslims generally cluster quite tightly in plots right so have similar levels of mixture?

Might be due to the lack of endogamy in that region

Yep that settles the E Asian then. I think some Sino-Tibetans still exist there right, some tribe starting with C that i fail to recall

bmoney
11-03-2017, 11:12 PM
So that tiny baloch in me is responsible for me being only gorilla in my family? Or is it due to high ASI?

Funnily enough I think theres a correlation between hairiness in the subcontinent and the Baloch/Caucasian component - hairiness in Indians increases in the NW and decreases towards the East

The ASI component has an Iran_N subcomponent so possibly - youll have to run your K12 to get a proper ancients comparison

Chattisgarh thats interesting - post your K9ASI and Geneplaza K12

parasar
11-04-2017, 12:23 AM
Later R1a1 and R2 expansion from eastern India - yes possible - as NBPW is quite advanced.

But the PWC (Gharinda to Sravasti, which I think is R1a1 related) culture has nothing to recommend itself. But yes they had iron, so they could clear the heavy Gangetic forest and bring the Ganga Yamuna region under cultivation. That is why I think their expansion is farming related. The bronze cultures just did not have the capacity to clear heavily forested land. They stuck to dry river valleys, or sandy banks and diaras of large rivers.

The material culture is otherwise very poor - nothing of the type described in the Mahabharat which materially is describing the Mauryas and not the Kurus.

On the colonization of India, VN Misra's (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/pune/world-renowned-archaeologist-prof-vn-misra-passes-away/) work still remains the best (IMO). He called them as he saw them without any sugarcoating.
Prehistoric human colonization of India
http://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/jbsc/026/04/0491-0531
"The PGW culture is named after the pottery of the same name ... The first large-scale and effective use of iron in India is associated with this culture. The PGW culture is found in the IndoGangetic Divide and the upper Ganga-Yamuna Doab (ancient Aryavarta and Madhyadesa) ...
The PGW people cultivated rice and wheat and lived in wattle-and-daub houses. They were the first people to have definitely used the domesticated horse. The archaeological picture of the culture is far more modest than that depicted in the epics, the Puranas and later literature. The culture is dated by radiocarbon to 1000– 600 B.C. which again is in sharp contrast to the Hindu belief of the Mahabharata battle having ended before 3000 B.C."

bmoney
11-04-2017, 12:44 AM
On the colonization of India, VN Misra's (http://indianexpress.com/article/cities/pune/world-renowned-archaeologist-prof-vn-misra-passes-away/) work still remains the best (IMO). He called them as he saw them without any sugarcoating.
Prehistoric human colonization of India
http://www.ias.ac.in/article/fulltext/jbsc/026/04/0491-0531
"The PGW culture is named after the pottery of the same name ... The first large-scale and effective use of iron in India is associated with this culture. The PGW culture is found in the IndoGangetic Divide and the upper Ganga-Yamuna Doab (ancient Aryavarta and Madhyadesa) ...
The PGW people cultivated rice and wheat and lived in wattle-and-daub houses. They were the first people to have definitely used the domesticated horse. The archaeological picture of the culture is far more modest than that depicted in the epics, the Puranas and later literature. The culture is dated by radiocarbon to 1000– 600 B.C. which again is in sharp contrast to the Hindu belief of the Mahabharata battle having ended before 3000 B.C."

Nice

Thats interesting that the Mahabharat was based on the more recent Mauryans and not the typically Aryan Kurus

So horses were key - makes sense horses would provide a lot of advantage in the flat land terrain of the Indo-Gangetic plain

Zayd
11-04-2017, 01:32 AM
wow thats a lot of difference in phenotype. Though the melting pot ingredients are quite diverse, Bengali Muslims generally cluster quite tightly in plots right so have similar levels of mixture?

Might be due to the lack of endogamy in that region

Yep that settles the E Asian then. I think some Sino-Tibetans still exist there right, some tribe starting with C that i fail to recall

I also think the lack of endogamy is responsible for diversity in Bangladeshis, though "as i mentioned before" there exist a social class endogamy. The fact is geography determines our genetic not the phenotypes. Thats why even Burmese people ends up being around 1/4 south Asian but they dont show any south Asian influence in look.Maybe in the future with more researches and ancient DNA we can get in-depth analysis.
Yes, there are Sino-Tibetan tribes(Chakma,Marma,Garo,Manipuri ect.) living in Bangladesh today.They constitute around 2% of Bangladeshi population.

TJRocks760
11-04-2017, 01:58 AM
Agree, but its not negligible - the CHG/Iran_N segment admixture would be different between a UP Kayasth and a Jatt Sikh even if EHG levels are similar

The examples below are speculation, but IMO on average this is the difference in phenotype. I'm just comparing Punjabis here, UP Kayasth would be quite different

Rishi Kapoor - Indo-Aryan
19516

Monty Panesar (Sikh Ramgarhia) - Gedrosian - this is a distinct Indian Punjab phenotype
19517

Bmoney,

Thank you for sharing. But, I also hate you for bringing back old memories of Rishi Kapoor movies.

I've had songs of Chandni stuck in my head all day now.

LOL

Lara101
11-04-2017, 04:34 AM
10% is still a huge difference. And we are just talking about SI right now, not the other components. We have already talked about phenotypes. South Asians can end up look like anything.

Yes many south asians, but sikhs not so much, most sikhs i have seen look very similar, some are darker, some are lighter, but their features are similar. Pakistani punjabies on the other hand can fit in any part of the sub continent, their looks are very diverse

Arlus
11-04-2017, 06:33 AM
Funnily enough I think theres a correlation between hairiness in the subcontinent and the Baloch/Caucasian component - hairiness in Indians increases in the NW and decreases towards the East

The ASI component has an Iran_N subcomponent so possibly - youll have to run your K12 to get a proper ancients comparison

Chattisgarh thats interesting - post your K9ASI and Geneplaza K12
I will post as soon as my results are available(expected to be arround midnovember). My assumption(joke) was based upon the harrappa averages for my caste.

bmoney
11-05-2017, 12:25 AM
I also think the lack of endogamy is responsible for diversity in Bangladeshis, though "as i mentioned before" there exist a social class endogamy. The fact is geography determines our genetic not the phenotypes. Thats why even Burmese people ends up being around 1/4 south Asian but they dont show any south Asian influence in look.Maybe in the future with more researches and ancient DNA we can get in-depth analysis.
Yes, there are Sino-Tibetan tribes(Chakma,Marma,Garo,Manipuri ect.) living in Bangladesh today.They constitute around 2% of Bangladeshi population.

Yes Chakma that was the one

bmoney
11-05-2017, 12:32 AM
Bmoney,

Thank you for sharing. But, I also hate you for bringing back old memories of Rishi Kapoor movies.

I've had songs of Chandni stuck in my head all day now.

LOL

Hahah youre welcome bruv - i had a paki colleague at work who was always putting oldies in my head by linking youtube videos

Koshur_Sam
11-07-2017, 03:22 AM
I scored 30.2 Southeast Eurasian And 35.5 Steppes, is that apparently abnormal for a Kashmiri to score so high southeast eurasian?

bmoney
11-07-2017, 03:43 AM
I scored 30.2 Southeast Eurasian And 35.5 Steppes, is that apparently abnormal for a Kashmiri to score so high southeast eurasian?

It might be normal if we find other Kashmir Valley samples who have similar levels of SE Eurasian as you.

If this is the case, it might suggest that Kashmir might not have got the later waves of admixture seen in Punjab for example due to isolation. I have heard Kashmiri is one of languages that have preserved the Vedic Indo-Aryan features the most among modern IA languages which might suggest that they are mainly the remnants of the the early IAs and the locals who lived here

Punjabis can score 30% SE Eurasian though - think there was a Sikh Jatt girl in Kurds K12 thread that scored that

To put your SE Eurasian in perspective - Varun a Tamil Brahmin scores 30% and I score 32.5% (were both from the southernmost states of India)

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 03:46 AM
^^ I'm slowly adding you all to a MDLP K16, K11, puntK13, and Harappaworld PCA (and maybe others that have a lot of South Asian populations averages already) so you can compare and contrast. It will take me forever to run 1000 samples per calculator so don't expect anything soon hahah!

I don't know if I have your results though on these. If you wish, PM me your gedmatch #, otherwise I'll search the forum for your posted stuff at some point.

redifflal
11-07-2017, 03:51 AM
Here is a video of a Bengali Scheduled Caste group called the Mahato's, doing their annual Shiva worship known as Charak Puja. Mahato's live in border regions of West Bengal and Jharkhand. I'd imagine these are a high ASI group. They look like they have lean muscle mass like SSA populations, something I have never seen naturally in most Desi males in urban India or abroad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScG9KZc2lVw

poi
11-07-2017, 04:23 AM
They look like they have lean muscle mass like SSA populations, something I have never seen naturally in most Desi males in urban India or abroad...

It is kinda difficult to have lean muscle mass if your diet involves dalda ghee, refined maida roti, deep fried flour cakes, sweets, and absolutely no exercise. According to 23andme, I apparently have the "athlete gene", but you will not see that looking at me. lol

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 05:46 AM
It is kinda difficult to have lean muscle mass if your diet involves dalda ghee, refined maida roti, deep fried flour cakes, sweets, and absolutely no exercise. According to 23andme, I apparently have the "athlete gene", but you will not see that looking at me. lol

I cracked up.

pegasus
11-07-2017, 07:40 AM
This is a very big genetic component in most South Asians. Is this ASI/Andamanese/Onge or more Papuan/Oceania/Australian Aborignal realated?

South Asians are interesting Hybrid of two main very different peoples. One being closely realated to Steppes/European/Middle Eastern people. The other being realted to the vary first people who left Africa, who populated south/south east asia

Not really, its more complicated than that. Firstly ASI cannot be defined as Onge, they produce terrible fits , I have said this a million times by now, and they are 40,000 years drifted. Another thing Onge are very East Eurasian , so they cannot be the first people who left Africa. That would be the first people to fan out before the Toba explosion, approx 75 000 years ago. Also its complicated by ANE, which though considered "West Eurasian" actually does have a good amount of ASE (25-30%). Also the most "ASI" shifted people , the Pania are about 40% West Eurasian. Also once they get new genomes , they will stop using terms like ASI and ANI and it will turn out something more complex.

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 07:43 AM
Not really, its more complicated than that. Firstly ASI cannot be defined as Onge, they produce terrible fits , I have said this a million times by now, and they are 40,000 years drifted. Another thing Onge are very East Eurasian , so they cannot be the first people who left Africa. That would be first people to fan out before the Toba explosion, approx 75 000 years ago. Also its complicated by ANE, which though considered "West Eurasian" actually does have a good amount of ASE (25-30%). Also the most "ASI" shifted people , the Pania are about 40% West Eurasian. Also once they get new genomes , they will stop using terms like ASI and ANI and it will turn out something more complex.

I can't wait to retire these terms.

DMXX
11-07-2017, 07:49 AM
Completely agree. "ANI" needs to be retired as it is (it is obsolete, given the main Eurasian streams which are distinct from the indigenous Subcontinental para-component - Iran_X-derived signals, BA Eurasian steppe and the ANE surplus - are going to be largely independent of another). As a community, I do think we need to be at the forefront of actively putting the term into disuse.

"ASI" does serve a general purpose for the time being until the indigenous component(s) are identified (as stated earlier, I personally don't think "ASI" will exist, the same way "ANI" has been confirmed to be a statistical construct from a position of true, prior ignorance).

I'm expecting at least two versions of "ASI" to emerge before the advent of the Neolithic, differing chiefly in terms of ANE content ("ASI_N" will contain more, "ASI_S" less).

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 08:04 AM
Completely agree. "ANI" needs to be retired as it is (it is obsolete, given the main Eurasian streams which are distinct from the indigenous Subcontinental para-component - Iran_X-derived signals, BA Eurasian steppe and the ANE surplus - are going to be largely independent of another). As a community, I do think we need to be at the forefront of actively putting the term into disuse.

"ASI" does serve a general purpose for the time being until the indigenous component(s) are identified (as stated earlier, I personally don't think "ASI" will exist, the same way "ANI" has been confirmed to be a statistical construct from a position of true, prior ignorance).

I'm expecting at least two versions of "ASI" to emerge before the advent of the Neolithic, differing chiefly in terms of ANE content ("ASI_N" will contain more, "ASI_S" less).

On the same boat. Sink or swim.

bmoney
11-07-2017, 11:29 AM
Not really, its more complicated than that. Firstly ASI cannot be defined as Onge, they produce terrible fits , I have said this a million times by now, and they are 40,000 years drifted. Another thing Onge are very East Eurasian , so they cannot be the first people who left Africa. That would be the first people to fan out before the Toba explosion, approx 75 000 years ago. Also its complicated by ANE, which though considered "West Eurasian" actually does have a good amount of ASE (25-30%). Also the most "ASI" shifted people , the Pania are about 40% West Eurasian. Also once they get new genomes , they will stop using terms like ASI and ANI and it will turn out something more complex.

I don't know why people would think ANE is West Eurasian

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 01:16 PM
I don't know why people would think ANE is West Eurasian

It's not east eurasian either, afterall ANE and WHG split from same branch. It's something that was between East eurasian and west eurasian. It becomes complex to talk about things when we divide the ancient populations using modern populations like West eurasian from "Caucasians" or East Eurasian for "East asians". There were some populations that were different, had their own drift. ASE and ANE being one of them.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 01:17 PM
Here is a video of a Bengali Scheduled Caste group called the Mahato's, doing their annual Shiva worship known as Charak Puja. Mahato's live in border regions of West Bengal and Jharkhand. I'd imagine these are a high ASI group. They look like they have lean muscle mass like SSA populations, something I have never seen naturally in most Desi males in urban India or abroad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScG9KZc2lVw

They resemble the Labour here in Punjab a lot from UP/Bihar etc. I have always noticed they are very ripped and naturally toned in comparison to us. Which of course as POI stated, compared to us Butter chicken and naan eating punjabis, they are way more fit.

On the note of having athletic gene on 23&me, we still need more research on it. I'm supposed to be not at all athletic and have really weak bone structure, but here I'm, 6'5", built like a tank and never had fracture, can run for long time without losing speed. Probably the love of Harambe (Rest in peace brah).

redifflal
11-07-2017, 03:49 PM
Thing is though, they might not be eating butter chicken but they do eat heavy breads and rice and also good amounts of meat, fish and vegetables. And then they must be pushing bulls manually through the field, which is a cross fit like workout regimen with the sled pushes. I daresay urban Indian lifestyle has totally missed the boat on maintaining the food/workout balance. That's also why we are having really bad rates of heart disease and diabetes and obesity.

A lot of the sweet industry is also an urban and colonial phenomenon, because you'd need factory level sugar outputs to fulfill the demands for laddoos and rasgullas we have during our year round festivals. There's a difference in the level and quantity of sweets if you get prasad at the old temples (like the pedas at Kalighat) vs what a roshogolla is.

Lara101
11-07-2017, 04:11 PM
Not really, its more complicated than that. Firstly ASI cannot be defined as Onge, they produce terrible fits , I have said this a million times by now, and they are 40,000 years drifted. Another thing Onge are very East Eurasian , so they cannot be the first people who left Africa. That would be the first people to fan out before the Toba explosion, approx 75 000 years ago. Also its complicated by ANE, which though considered "West Eurasian" actually does have a good amount of ASE (25-30%). Also the most "ASI" shifted people , the Pania are about 40% West Eurasian. Also once they get new genomes , they will stop using terms like ASI and ANI and it will turn out something more complex.

The dates dont matter, back then India's/Asia's population was very little with few tribes roaming around, ASI/Onge despite being distant are related populations, so are papuans and other ancient south east asians. Of course ASI itself is probably a mixture of few tribes/populations. I agree about the ANI part

Lara101
11-07-2017, 04:12 PM
Thing is though, they might not be eating butter chicken but they do eat heavy breads and rice and also good amounts of meat, fish and vegetables. And then they must be pushing bulls manually through the field, which is a cross fit like workout regimen with the sled pushes. I daresay urban Indian lifestyle has totally missed the boat on maintaining the food/workout balance. That's also why we are having really bad rates of heart disease and diabetes and obesity.

A lot of the sweet industry is also an urban and colonial phenomenon, because you'd need factory level sugar outputs to fulfill the demands for laddoos and rasgullas we have during our year round festivals. There's a difference in the level and quantity of sweets if you get prasad at the old temples (like the pedas at Kalighat) vs what a roshogolla is.

I have noticed many Tamil Tribal s to be bulky with muscle mass too

poi
11-07-2017, 04:17 PM
Thing is though, they might not be eating butter chicken but they do eat heavy breads and rice and also good amounts of meat, fish and vegetables. And then they must be pushing bulls manually through the field, which is a cross fit like workout regimen with the sled pushes. I daresay urban Indian lifestyle has totally missed the boat on maintaining the food/workout balance. That's also why we are having really bad rates of heart disease and diabetes and obesity.

A lot of the sweet industry is also an urban and colonial phenomenon, because you'd need factory level sugar outputs to fulfill the demands for laddoos and rasgullas we have during our year round festivals. There's a difference in the level and quantity of sweets if you get prasad at the old temples (like the pedas at Kalighat) vs what a roshogolla is.

When I look at our old family photos from 30-80 years ago, everybody was ripped. Probably bit of malnutrition from lack of protein, but that was it. Everybody had visibly toned jaw lines, no double chin, and deeply set eyes. Perhaps that was a survivor bias as everybody went through a pretty deadly childbirth and only the strongest survived through childhood. They however were much shorter than my generation, but ripped as hell. The restaurant/sweets culture is creating havoc these days. At least the added food hormones are causing people to be taller. 5'1 from 3 generations are having 5'6 kids. 5'6 from those generations are having 6' kids.

redifflal
11-07-2017, 05:49 PM
When I look at our old family photos from 30-80 years ago, everybody was ripped. Probably bit of malnutrition from lack of protein, but that was it. Everybody had visibly toned jaw lines, no double chin, and deeply set eyes. Perhaps that was a survivor bias as everybody went through a pretty deadly childbirth and only the strongest survived through childhood. They however were much shorter than my generation, but ripped as hell. The restaurant/sweets culture is creating havoc these days. At least the added food hormones are causing people to be taller. 5'1 from 3 generations are having 5'6 kids. 5'6 from those generations are having 6' kids.

It would be good to be able to maintain the toned bodies while getting taller. I wonder how people from Scheduled Tribes backgrounds are doing over the generations. I recently watched a Bengali movie called Lorai (লড়াই) on Netflix. A nice feel good sports movie with subtitles, and they show an Anglo Indian football player being sent to Bengal Jharkhand border area to set up a football team. They show a lot of the Santhals as main characters in the movie, made me ever hopeful that India has an unknown football potential that is yet to be given the opportunity.

wgjkkwjkf
11-07-2017, 06:04 PM
Here is a video of a Bengali Scheduled Caste group called the Mahato's, doing their annual Shiva worship known as Charak Puja. Mahato's live in border regions of West Bengal and Jharkhand. I'd imagine these are a high ASI group. They look like they have lean muscle mass like SSA populations, something I have never seen naturally in most Desi males in urban India or abroad...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScG9KZc2lVw

Can they be called Hindus? If they are Hindus then there should be a Brahmin priest there should there not?

poi
11-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Can they be called Hindus? If they are Hindus then there should be a Brahmin priest there should there not?

A lot of Hindus (atleast in Nepal) have their priestly class within their own community, although they are not technically of caste brahmin. For example, one of the most popular Nepali temples (Mankamana in Gorkha) has priests from Thapa Magar "caste". Newars, an urban Tibeto-Burman language community, also have their own priestly class(although they are technically Newar brahmins). I think priesthood=brahmin is a southern Indian innovation, but please correct me if I'm wrong.

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 06:22 PM
If you don't have an A/C or a car, eat all you want, you will never get fat in South Asia.

The amount of calories daily life in that heat burns is insane. I used to eat 4-5 rohtis a meal, 3x a day and I could never get my weight above 130lbs. My typical breakfast was an omlette or 3, chicken shorba with Puck cream cheese on the side, a glass of milk, a glass of juice, and a glass of water. On the way to class I'd stop and get some zarda with channey and maybe a glass of anar juice. Your entire life is in a sauna. You have to walk everywhere. Walking miles and miles a day is just normal. A couple stray dogs chasing you at night once a week or so gets that cardio going.

Everyone who is doing some manual labor, like chopping wood or climbing date palms is pretty jacked. Shiiiet, even Pappu the paan guy next to my place was jacked and all he was doing was folding up paan. My landlord though... fat as a mofo. Like the size of a Suzuki Mehran or 3 baby water buffaloes. He was living the good life... nice Corolla, a few servants, zameenay, the whole 9. He lived maybe 2 blocks away, if that, and always drove to pick up rent and then would just drive back home LOL. When he walked, shayad Sarhad mein zilzala horahahein? All he has to do is sit and collect money... no movement really required. So he sits in an A/C, has a UPS and generator so that hawa stays steady jab bijli jaatihein, eats that A-1 karhai daily, and sips on a tandah-yukh ya sakht-garam.

Now that I'm back in the US, I eat way less... but I'm a fat lard. A couple steps the bathroom, few more to the kitchen, some more to the car. Sit. Push pedal. Couple steps to desk. Sit. Couple steps to parking lot. Sit. A few stairs up to apartment. Some steps to the bathroom, a few more to the bed.

I probably walked more a day in Pakistan than I walk in a month here.

Lara101
11-07-2017, 06:25 PM
If you don't have an A/C or a car, eat all you want, you will never get fat in South Asia.

The amount of calories daily life in that heat burns is insane. I used to eat 4-5 rohtis a meal, 3x a day and I could never get my weight above 130lbs. My typical breakfast was an omlette or 3, chicken shorba with Puck cream cheese on the side, a glass of milk, a glass of juice, and a glass of water. On the way to class I'd stop and get some zarda with channey and maybe a glass of anar juice. Your entire life is in a sauna. You have to walk everywhere. Walking miles and miles a day is just normal. A couple stray dogs chasing you at night once a week or so gets that cardio going.

Everyone who is doing some manual labor, like chopping wood or climbing date palms is pretty jacked. Shiiiet, even Pappu the paan guy next to my place was jacked and all he was doing was folding up paan. My landlord though... fat as a mofo. Like the size of a Suzuki Mehran or 3 baby water buffaloes. He was living the good life... nice Corolla, a few servants, zameenay, the whole 9. He lived maybe 2 blocks away, if that, and always drove to pick up rent and then would just drive back home LOL. All he has to do is sit and collect money... no movement really required. So he sits in an A/C, has a UPS and generator so that hawah stays steady jab bijli jaatihaan, eats that A-1 Karhai daily and sips on a tandah-yukh ya sakht-garam.

Now that I'm back in the US, I eat way less... but I'm a fat lard. A couple steps the bathroom, few more to the kitchen, some more to the car. Sit. Push pedal. Couple steps to desk. Sit. Couple steps to parking lot. Sit. A few stairs up to apartment. Some steps to the bathroom, a few more to the bed.

I probably walked more a day in Pakistan than I walk in a month here.


But are you south asian?

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 06:30 PM
^He is blend of lots of South Asian ethnicities lol.

@Khana: Metabolism slows with time as well. That could be a factor.

Adam A
11-07-2017, 06:32 PM
But are you south asian?

He's got India and Pakistan in his flags

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 06:37 PM
^He is blend of lots of South Asian ethnicities lol.

@Khana: Metabolism slows with time as well. That could be a factor.

Bhanschorr! You calling me a budda aadmi? LMAO.

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 06:43 PM
But are you south asian?

Brah, half my reply was in Urdu.

I have the deets on speed dial though: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12427-Punjabi-Gujjar-Results-K12-Ancient-Origins-(Gene-Plaza-Kurd)&p=302654&viewfull=1#post302654

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 06:48 PM
Bhanschorr! You calling me a budda aadmi? LMAO.

Saain tussi mere toh vdde ho. Buzurg log.

surbakhunWeesste
11-07-2017, 06:52 PM
Brah, half my reply was in Urdu.

I have the deets on speed dial though: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12427-Punjabi-Gujjar-Results-K12-Ancient-Origins-(Gene-Plaza-Kurd)&p=302654&viewfull=1#post302654
Agar hum Urdu menu reply Kiya toh hum bi south Asian van sakta hai, hum ko aur south Asian languages bi yaad hai so count me in you central Asian South asian west Asian hybrid. Loog ney Iran ko bi South Asia main add kiye, Tibetans ko bi, so what’s the big deal!

redifflal
11-07-2017, 06:52 PM
You guys are lucky with your good athletic potential in your genes. My folks have been having moobs for centuries lol.

redifflal
11-07-2017, 06:56 PM
This mega South Asian stuff is just recycled Akhand Bharat lol.

Khana all your backgrounds... these were all arranged marriages? How?

Lara101
11-07-2017, 07:02 PM
Brah, half my reply was in Urdu.

I have the deets on speed dial though: http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12427-Punjabi-Gujjar-Results-K12-Ancient-Origins-(Gene-Plaza-Kurd)&p=302654&viewfull=1#post302654



Pathans baloch can speak urdu/Hindi, but their not really what we consider south asian, or desi as we say it

Kurd
11-07-2017, 07:23 PM
Pathans baloch can speak urdu/Hindi, but their not really what we consider south asian, or desi as we say it


Desi nahi to pardesi hai kya....this whole desi thing is so subjective and really boils down to phenotype. So many times I have heard Indians/Pakistanis say “yeh desi lagta hai” when in fact the person was a Kurd or Iranian.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 07:30 PM
^There is no label on who is desi or not, he speaks Punjabi, grew up in South Asian country, genetically scores similar to jatts. He is as Desi as Kadar Khan.

Koshur_Sam
11-07-2017, 07:42 PM
Pathans baloch can speak urdu/Hindi, but their not really what we consider south asian, or desi as we say it

Whose 'we'? Who are you?

Lara101
11-07-2017, 07:46 PM
Desi nahi to pardesi hai kya....this whole desi thing is so subjective and really boils down to phenotype. So many times I have heard Indians/Pakistanis say ďyeh desi lagta haiĒ when in fact the person was a Kurd or Iranian.

it boils down to everything, looks, food, culture, clothes etc..

Lara101
11-07-2017, 07:49 PM
^There is no label on who is desi or not, he speaks Punjabi, grew up in South Asian country, genetically scores similar to jatts. He is as Desi as Kadar Khan.

Never have I seen western pakistani saying he is desi. doesn't matter genetically, he maybe the first. Even Kader Khan always said he is a Pakhtun, never did he say desi or Indian

Lara101
11-07-2017, 07:50 PM
Whose 'we'? Who are you?

Kashmiries are not really desi too, more closer to Dardic. Desis are basically Indics, including Dravidian populations

poi
11-07-2017, 07:56 PM
Never have I seen western pakistani saying he is desi. doesn't matter genetically, he maybe the first. Even Kader Khan always said he is a Pakhtun, never did he say desi or Indian

Must be a nationalistic thing for smaller ethnicities. For what it's worth -- same thing with Nepali. I have not heard Pahari Nepalis (whether IA or TB speaker as they constitute 60-70%) call themselves "desi". Personally, many members of my family -- although they are effectively Indian ethnicity/language/culture wise -- find offense in the term desi. Weird. Only the Nepali of Madhesi(~30-40%) ethnic background might refer to themselves as such. It might have changed in the west as 'Desi' is used as a generic south asian term, regardless of ethno-political boundaries.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-07-2017, 07:56 PM
It's getting tiring now, this is an obvious troll thread. 10/10 did feel for it.

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 07:58 PM
Agar hum Urdu menu reply Kiya toh hum bi south Asian van sakta hai, hum ko air south Asian languages bi tard hai so count me in you central Asian South asian west Asian hybrid. Loog ney Iran ko bi South Asia main add kiye, Tibetans ko bi, so what’s the big deal sm

LOL first I thought you were typing in Punjabi, "menu" "van". I don't know what you meant by "air" or "tard".

Aap ki ehtijaj sun liya. Aur maangty haan ky bunyaadi tor py aap ki dalil durust haan. Maghar, filhaal, humara fasla yehi haan ky, aap awaam-e-janoobi asia mein shaamil nahin ho sakti. Aur mazeed, aap bhi un sy mukhtaalif haan.
Kyun? Is wajah sy -- aap ki baal laal-surkh haan. Hum is haqiqat ko nazar andaaz nahin karsakty haan.
Yeni, aap ki darkhwast na'mumkin haan.

passion
11-07-2017, 07:59 PM
It's getting tiring now, this is an obvious troll thread. 10/10 did feel for it.

lol OP is a well known troll that used to visit various anthro boards and ply his trade , he is banned from all of them now.Obsessed with terms like Desis, "foreign influence" , Pashtuns etc

Lara101
11-07-2017, 08:03 PM
lol OP is a well known troll that used to visit various anthro boards and ply his trade , he is banned from all of them now.Obsessed with terms like Desis, "foreign influence" , Pashtuns etc

you just signed in to say that? common dude. How can you prove what you are saying?

passion
11-07-2017, 08:05 PM
you just signed in to say that? common dude

I am helping other saving there precious time Karachi

Lara101
11-07-2017, 08:08 PM
I am helping other saving there precious time Karachi

Yeah well you can't prove anything, as long as the discussion is civil, who cares?

surbakhunWeesste
11-07-2017, 08:11 PM
Pathans baloch can speak urdu/Hindi, but their not really what we consider south asian, or desi as we say it

My kind of people have been mixing with your kind of people for centuries, we have had rajput princesses etc, the Mughals started as central Asians then married the rajputs now who is south Asian and who is not? Itís about culture now, unless you wanna riddle out everyone other than the andamanese or othe aboriginals... India is old world USA

surbakhunWeesste
11-07-2017, 08:16 PM
LOL first I thought you were typing in Punjabi, "menu" "van". I don't know what you meant by "air" or "tard".

Aap ki ehtijaj sun liya. Aur maangty haan ky bunyaadi tor py aap ki dalil durust haan. Maghar, filhaal, humara fasla yehi haan ky, aap awaam-e-janoobi asia mein shaamil nahin ho sakti. Aur mazeed, aap bhi un sy mukhtaalif haan.
Kyun? Is wajah sy -- aap ki baal laal-surkh haan. Hum is haqiqat ko nazar andaaz nahin karsakty haan.
Yeni, aap ki darkhwast na'mumkin haan.

That’s Shakespearean Urdu khanabadoshizeee speak in Ebonics Hindustani with me jk, Urdu is almost mystical as Farsi is for me, it has Lehaaz!
After reading it thrice, I finally understood everything.
Hum nein yitna south Asian fondness hai key hum perhaps sub continental log so bi jeyada south Asian hai, humara baal soorkh hai to kya hua, hum ke anndar mein South Asia fondness hai.

Lara101
11-07-2017, 08:44 PM
My kind of people have been mixing with your kind of people for centuries, we have had rajput princesses etc, the Mughals started as central Asians then married the rajputs now who is south Asian and who is not? It’s about culture now, unless you wanna riddle out everyone other than the andamanese or othe aboriginals... India is old world USA

I agree, South Asia has mixed with Central Asians since 5000 years, however there is a huge difference between desi and other cultures to the west, including foods, clothes and looks for the most part

poi
11-07-2017, 08:51 PM
I agree, South Asia has mixed with Central Asians since 5000 years, however there is a huge difference between desi and other cultures to the west, including foods, clothes and looks for the most part

Not necessarily true. Everybody typing on this board is wearing European clothes, typing in English, probably listening to American/British music, watching Hollywood movies. Even in India, more urban population is speaking in English... all bollywood interviews are in English, they import European dancers, go shoot scenes in Europe. Let's not pretend there is a clear separation when it comes to culture, food, and clothing. The only thing that is separate is in the genes, but there is a continuum there still.

Lara101
11-07-2017, 09:02 PM
Not necessarily true. Everybody typing on this board is wearing European clothes, typing in English, probably listening to American/British music, watching Hollywood movies. Even in India, more urban population is speaking in English... all bollywood interviews are in English, they import European dancers, go shoot scenes in Europe. Let's not pretend there is a clear separation when it comes to culture, food, and clothing. The only thing that is separate is in the genes, but there is a continuum there still.

majority of indians are not westernized, in fact people west of us like Iranians or even Afghans (Tajiks) are more westernized to be honest, Indians carry their desi cultures here in the west for generations

Kurd
11-07-2017, 09:32 PM
LOL first I thought you were typing in Punjabi, "menu" "van". I don't know what you meant by "air" or "tard".

Aap ki ehtijaj sun liya. Aur maangty haan ky bunyaadi tor py aap ki dalil durust haan. Maghar, filhaal, humara fasla yehi haan ky, aap awaam-e-janoobi asia mein shaamil nahin ho sakti. Aur mazeed, aap bhi un sy mukhtaalif haan.
Kyun? Is wajah sy -- aap ki baal laal-surkh haan. Hum is haqiqat ko nazar andaaz nahin karsakty haan.
Yeni, aap ki darkhwast na'mumkin haan.

pa pashto ke

Stase pa khabari pohedama aw pa bunyadi tauga sama di kho aws zmuzh faisala daa da che tase da junoob-e-asia da khalko sara shmer kawalay na shuma wale che da stase veeshto rang soor de


Give or take :)

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 09:36 PM
This mega South Asian stuff is just recycled Akhand Bharat lol.

Khana all your backgrounds... these were all arranged marriages? How?

Paternal Great grandfather and his brother got jobs in Gurdaspur during British Raj, his 2 youngest sons were married with 2 Kashmiri sisters from a family they befriended during their time there. A set of which is my grandfather and grandmother. My grandparents were young at the time, they married much later when her family had moved to Lahore and his family back to Muzaffargarh. Ever since these marriages, many people from my family have married again with Kashmiris, with some of my cousins or their kids being more Kashmiri than not, by now.

Maternal great grandfather married a woman from Delhi, but we don't know her ethnicity. Her family had moved west and was settled somewhere near our village, well before partition. Who, what, where, when, why? I don't know. Whatever she was drastically effects .Sadia's (who is representative of my maternal Grandfather) results and in turn my Mother's and mine. This is the only outside admixture we know of for .Sadia. In IBS runs, she was on the bottom of every list for every run. So something is not accounted for.Lately on calcs she is being modeled like 70% Baloch/30% Orissa.

So now my maternal grandfather -- who is already mixed with something -- got married to a woman from the tribe, but she couldn't have kids. He worked in Peshawar and a shopkeeper there introduced him to my maternal Grandmother's family, and so he married my grandmother, his 2nd wife. So my mother grew up in Peshawar until she was 16. Which is why she knows some Bengali because my grandfather was an Air Traffic Controller in Peshawar for the air force and most of the pilots (and thus their kids) were Bengali at the time.

This is just my direct lineage. My other close relatives are mixed very differently. Two sets of 1st cousins have a Punjabi grandmother. And some 2nd cousins do too. Other 2nd cousins are almost purely Uzbek. Etc etc. In the US almost all my cousins and my maamo married muhajirs. My 1st cousin I just tested is supposed to be half Pashtun... so let's see if that shows up.

As far as arranged marriages go, their maybe an expectation, but it's just that. It's basically arranged if you're like "find me someone". Otherwise, no one tells anyone you have to marry so and so. There is really no expectation of a man to seek permission from his parents, hopefully a heads up or blessing -- but in the end it's accepted as his right to do whatever. On the flip-side, I have uncles and aunts who have lived and died and cousins that never married, because they just said no. There isn't much pressure to get married.

It's a little bit a of a cultural difference compared to other regions. In the sense, my father doesn't have many rights over me and I don't have many rights over him, because we are both men. Around 14-15, your father is not responsible for you anymore and everything from this point is by his grace, in that vain, allowing your father to have a say in your affairs after that point is also by your grace. Extend this logic to marriage, and you can understand that male children don't necessarily feel obliged to let their parents have a say, and our parents accept that. Extend it further, our parents don't necessarily feel obliged to help us get married, and the children accept that. So in this scenario, you can see how all these random marriages occur.

EDIT: Forgot to add how maternal Grandmother's (balq) parents happened.
Balq's grandfather had 2 wives one in Tashkent and one in Chitral. He used to travel back and forth as he was a trader. When the Tsar fell they all fled to Chitral by horse with all their possessions, his entire Uzbek wife's family too. Both his wives had the same names, and he had named the kids the same names too, so it's a little joke in the family. My grandmother's father is from the Chitrali wife. He in turn also married a Chitrali woman... which is why my maternal grandmother is more Chitrali than Uzbek, despite being paternally Uzbek. Because during the time period it was all Russian territory, my grandmother refers to her father and grandfather as being from Rus. Because there are 2 wives, and one was also Uzbek, branches of the family are fully Uzbek still in Pakistan. However, most married Hindkowans and some Pashtuns, while others married other Uzbeks or Chitralis. Since the Uzbek community isn't that big, I also know the non-related Uzbek husbands of my aunts and their families somewhat well.

khanabadoshi
11-07-2017, 10:44 PM
Never have I seen western pakistani saying he is desi. doesn't matter genetically, he maybe the first. Even Kader Khan always said he is a Pakhtun, never did he say desi or Indian

I mean, within Pakistan the only thing I hear people call desi is ghee or murgh. While it means "native", the connotation is more like "local"; and you are referring to things not people. "yeh desi tareeqa haan..." This is the local method....; "yeh desi murghi ka anda haan" This is a local chicken's egg; "yeh hamara desi riwaaj haan" These are our local traditions. The word is used to imply that whatever is being referred to is local to wherever you are at. It's not referring to a larger pan-cultural thing. It's like saying in English: This is our local newspaper. This is our native bird. Native to what- local to what - something specific; not all English-based cultures.

In the US, desi is used with the connotation of being "native to South Asia". So if someone asks me if I'm desi, I'll say yes.

But often the implication is that you eat aloo samosa, watch cricket, know your national anthem, and can recite the script of Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham by heart. I'm exaggerating, but my point is sometimes the question isn't asking if you are South Asian, but if you are a part of the South Asian subculture that is prevalent in whatever diaspora you are in. Also, you can't ignore the fact the term itself was used by diaspora Indians to refer to other kinds of Indians and usually specifically the north, and the term seems to have have gradually expanded to include other groups. This is also selective. I mean, are you going to ask a kid from Bhutan if he is Desi? He can probably understand Hindi, and he is South Asian. You going to ask a Siddi if they are Desi? Is a Parsi, Desi? So in that sense, people don't always like the term.

I live with 2 Pakistanis who are much older than me and from Karachi, the only time either them have used the word desi was to when referring to some method of cooking or some remedy of some ailment. So it is pretty situational. The term was used a lot more in my daily life when I was in high school, I can't really imagine going up to someone at work or in public and asking if they are Desi. It's just really informal I guess and somewhat presumptuous.

Probably that's why some people don't like it, because you are assuming a connection to someone that may or may not exist.

Koshur_Sam
11-07-2017, 10:47 PM
Kashmiries are not really desi too, more closer to Dardic. Desis are basically Indics, including Dravidian populations

Oh wow my whole life has been a lie, thank you for showing me the light :bounce:

Tsakhur
11-07-2017, 11:39 PM
Completely agree. "ANI" needs to be retired as it is (it is obsolete, given the main Eurasian streams which are distinct from the indigenous Subcontinental para-component - Iran_X-derived signals, BA Eurasian steppe and the ANE surplus - are going to be largely independent of another). As a community, I do think we need to be at the forefront of actively putting the term into disuse.

"ASI" does serve a general purpose for the time being until the indigenous component(s) are identified (as stated earlier, I personally don't think "ASI" will exist, the same way "ANI" has been confirmed to be a statistical construct from a position of true, prior ignorance).

I'm expecting at least two versions of "ASI" to emerge before the advent of the Neolithic, differing chiefly in terms of ANE content ("ASI_N" will contain more, "ASI_S" less).

Off topic, but do you think Southeast Asians like the Burmese, Cambodian, Malay/Indonesian, Thai, etc have ANI/West Eurasian ancestry? I wonder this because they often score significant South Asian/Indian component in most calculators. In my opinion, they should have ANI if they have actual South Asian genetic gene flow from interaction with ancient India.

This is seems to go in line with the nMonte models I got in this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12426-Genomic-models-for-SE-Asians-using-nMonte

Wait..maybe I should ask in that thread. :P

parasar
11-08-2017, 01:58 AM
Off topic, but do you think Southeast Asians like the Burmese, Cambodian, Malay/Indonesian, Thai, etc have ANI/West Eurasian ancestry? I wonder this because they often score significant South Asian/Indian component in most calculators. In my opinion, they should have ANI if they have actual South Asian genetic gene flow from interaction with ancient India.

This is seems to go in line with the nMonte models I got in this thread:
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?12426-Genomic-models-for-SE-Asians-using-nMonte

Wait..maybe I should ask in that thread. :P

They should have some.
ANI is a composite term for many components that could be west or east Eurasian. It all depends on how one construes these terms. Is Ust Ishim West or East Eurasian? What about the so defined Basal?
As per definition of Basal it should be near absent in SE Asia.
Ust Ishim's IBD centroid falls somewhere in E India-Burma-SE Asia
https://i.redd.it/2scaidpqwwdy.jpg

bmoney
11-08-2017, 02:26 AM
They should have some.
ANI is a composite term for many components that could be west or east Eurasian. It all depends on how one construes these terms. Is Ust Ishim West or East Eurasian? What about the so defined Basal?
As per definition of Basal it should be near absent in SE Asia.
Ust Ishim's IBD centroid falls somewhere in E India-Burma-SE Asia
https://i.redd.it/2scaidpqwwdy.jpg

Can you give me a quick summary of Kostenki as he relates to modern pops?

parasar
11-08-2017, 03:28 AM
Can you give me a quick summary of Kostenki as he relates to modern pops?

I would say Kostenki 14 is an early WHG that had moved west. Unlike the much later and drifted WHG - Loschbour, K14 still maintains an southern Asian affinity. He is Y-C1b (F1370) and mt-U2, and both have related lines in southern Asia.

pegasus
11-08-2017, 04:14 AM
It's not east eurasian either, afterall ANE and WHG split from same branch. It's something that was between East eurasian and west eurasian. It becomes complex to talk about things when we divide the ancient populations using modern populations like West eurasian from "Caucasians" or East Eurasian for "East asians". There were some populations that were different, had their own drift. ASE and ANE being one of them.

Yes they share drift with upper Paleolithic people like those in Sunghir. These people are so ancient the lines between East Eurasian and West Eurasian do get blurred to an extent. There is this misinformation that ANE is derived from WHG , which is incorrect. Lazardis defines ANE as a population which split of on the Onge / Han cline but that would also apply IMO to upper paleolithic populations like Kotenski then , his Y dna is C, who was even more East Eurasian shifted than MA1.
The man at Sungir is Y dna C-M130 , a very rare clade, only one man from Nepal has it. Interestingly C has the highest diversity in South Asia , and its thought to have originated from there.
http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11090-What-about-SUNGIR-MAN-What-au-and-Y-hg-did-he-have
https://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v55/n7/full/jhg201040a.html



http://science.sciencemag.org/content/sci/suppl/2017/10/04/science.aao1807.DC1/aao1807_Sikora_SM.pdf

DMXX
11-08-2017, 04:26 AM
Y-DNA C has one specific branch in the Subcontinent (C5 from memory per the old nomenclature). Similar situation with one of the Q subclades. We know Q's parahaplogroups are mostly observed in the eastern half of Asia (quite predictably). I am not so sure about Y-DNA C.



Off topic, but do you think Southeast Asians like the Burmese, Cambodian, Malay/Indonesian, Thai, etc have ANI/West Eurasian ancestry? I wonder this because they often score significant South Asian/Indian component in most calculators. In my opinion, they should have ANI if they have actual South Asian genetic gene flow from interaction with ancient India.


I would've thought there is some West Eurasian ancestry in SE Asia based on the history, though it's going to be through contacts with the Indian Subcontinent (e.g. spread of Buddhism). So, I agree with you completely. If we had aDNA from SE Asia, D-stats would readily support or disprove this idea.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 04:56 AM
I mean, within Pakistan the only thing I hear people call desi is ghee or murgh. While it means "native", the connotation is more like "local"; and you are referring to things not people. "yeh desi tareeqa haan..." This is the local method....; "yeh desi murghi ka anda haan" This is a local chicken's egg; "yeh hamara desi riwaaj haan" These are our local traditions. The word is used to imply that whatever is being referred to is local to wherever you are at. It's not referring to a larger pan-cultural thing. It's like saying in English: This is our local newspaper. This is our native bird. Native to what- local to what - something specific; not all English-based cultures.

In the US, desi is used with the connotation of being "native to South Asia". So if someone asks me if I'm desi, I'll say yes.

But often the implication is that you eat aloo samosa, watch cricket, know your national anthem, and can recite the script of Kabhi Khushi Kabhi Gham by heart. I'm exaggerating, but my point is sometimes the question isn't asking if you are South Asian, but if you are a part of the South Asian subculture that is prevalent in whatever diaspora you are in. Also, you can't ignore the fact the term itself was used by diaspora Indians to refer to other kinds of Indians and usually specifically the north, and the term seems to have have gradually expanded to include other groups. This is also selective. I mean, are you going to ask a kid from Bhutan if he is Desi? He can probably understand Hindi, and he is South Asian. You going to ask a Siddi if they are Desi? Is a Parsi, Desi? So in that sense, people don't always like the term.

I live with 2 Pakistanis who are much older than me and from Karachi, the only time either them have used the word desi was to when referring to some method of cooking or some remedy of some ailment. So it is pretty situational. The term was used a lot more in my daily life when I was in high school, I can't really imagine going up to someone at work or in public and asking if they are Desi. It's just really informal I guess and somewhat presumptuous.

Probably that's why some people don't like it, because you are assuming a connection to someone that may or may not exist.

You donít have to prove anything mate, youíre sada vdda paaji.

Tsakhur
11-08-2017, 07:50 AM
They should have some.
ANI is a composite term for many components that could be west or east Eurasian. It all depends on how one construes these terms. Is Ust Ishim West or East Eurasian? What about the so defined Basal?
As per definition of Basal it should be near absent in SE Asia.
Ust Ishim's IBD centroid falls somewhere in E India-Burma-SE Asia
https://i.redd.it/2scaidpqwwdy.jpg

Do you have the IBD map for affinities with Iran Neolithic worldwide? I wonder would it peaks more in SE Asia than the other ones?

Tsakhur
11-08-2017, 07:55 AM
I would've thought there is some West Eurasian ancestry in SE Asia based on the history, though it's going to be through contacts with the Indian Subcontinent (e.g. spread of Buddhism). So, I agree with you completely. If we had aDNA from SE Asia, D-stats would readily support or disprove this idea.

Indeed, you are right. The West Eurasian ancestry in SE Asia definitely comes from religious, cultural, linguistic and trading interactions with ancient South Asia (probably mostly from Southern India like Chola Dynasty and Bengal region) .I'm not sure if phenotypic discussion is allowed, but a lot of SE Asians do look partially South Asian influenced to me.

To me, it is possible certain pops like Burmese and Cambodians can have around 6-8% ANI/Western Eurasian maybe even 10%+ (for some individuals) based on the nMonte models but indeed, ancient genomes are needed to know more.

I hope there are aDNAs from SE Asia but it seems like that region is given very little attention by geneticists.

pegasus
11-08-2017, 08:29 AM
Never have I seen western pakistani saying he is desi. doesn't matter genetically, he maybe the first. Even Kader Khan always said he is a Pakhtun, never did he say desi or Indian

You don't have to say something when its already understood. Also as Khana mentioned its a term from my observation largely used in the West. Also I notice a lot of your posts are troll bait.
Also I googled "Kader Khan" , for a man who has written a lot of the famous dialogues for Amitabh Bachchan and acted in a gazillion Bollywood movies, he has already immortalized himself in contemporary Hindi/Urdu art culture he dos not have to prove sh!t to anyone. Also he cannot be Western Pakistani, he was born in 1937 in Kabul with his family roots in Kandahar ie he is of Afghani Pashtun origin but who grew up in Bombay.
Also where are you deducing Western Pakistanis are that way, did you fly to Rawalpindi and conduct a poll?

pegasus
11-08-2017, 08:42 AM
Kashmiries are not really desi too, more closer to Dardic. Desis are basically Indics, including Dravidian populations

Indic denotes Indo Aryan, Dardic is a branch of it, what are you babbling?
Also from my understanding, Desi is a loose term for the cultural construct , irrespective of religion, which compromises Indo Aryan speaking populations in Indus-Gangetic plains ie Pakistan and Northern India and a common understanding of the Hindustani vernacular and social mores and understandings which come along with it.

Also from what I have observed in university and work, Northern Indians in particular Indian Punjabis gravitate towards Pakistanis almost immediately and rarely interact with South Indians outside work in a social manner. Which just goes to show the power of understanding a similar language,food and having a common social understanding.

jortita
11-08-2017, 08:51 AM
Indeed, you are right. The West Eurasian ancestry in SE Asia definitely comes from religious, cultural, linguistic and trading interactions with ancient South Asia (probably mostly from Southern India like Chola Dynasty and Bengal region) .I'm not sure if phenotypic discussion is allowed, but a lot of SE Asians do look partially South Asian influenced to me.

To me, it is possible certain pops like Burmese and Cambodians can have around 6-8% ANI/Western Eurasian maybe even 10%+ (for some individuals) based on the nMonte models but indeed, ancient genomes are needed to know more.

I hope there are aDNAs from SE Asia but it seems like that region is given very little attention by geneticists.

I have started a new thread under the Asian forum to mobilise more support for starting a SE Asia sub-forum. I contacted Admin and requested for SE Asia sub-forum but they responded there needs to be more demand from other members

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 01:28 PM
Indic denotes Indo Aryan, Dardic is a branch of it, what are you babbling?
Also from my understanding, Desi is a loose term for the cultural construct , irrespective of religion, which compromises Indo Aryan speaking populations in Indus-Gangetic plains ie Pakistan and Northern India and a common understanding of the Hindustani vernacular and social mores and understandings which come along with it.

Also from what I have observed in university and work, Northern Indians in particular Indian Punjabis gravitate towards Pakistanis almost immediately and rarely interact with South Indians outside work in a social manner. Which just goes to show the power of understanding a similar language,food and having a common social understanding.

This, I can relate to. Before coming to Canada I never had any interaction with people from South or East or even Gujarat/Maharashtra. So when we guys come to west, South Indians or Bengalis are more alien to us than a Punjabi from Pakistan or a karachi guy. Heck the pashtuns who speak Urdu (even punjabi in some cases) feels less alien. Majority of Tamils and Malayali I met could not speak Hindi (Or knew Hindi but won't speak it for some reason), so we didn't feel the connection.

If I see Khana and a Malayali guy sitting in a room, I'd go and start talking to Khana first, as he is more familiar. No offence Bmoney, you are a bro.

bmoney
11-08-2017, 01:36 PM
This, I can relate to. Before coming to Canada I never had any interaction with people from South or East or even Gujarat/Maharashtra. So when we guys come to west, South Indians or Bengalis are more alien to us than a Punjabi from Pakistan or a karachi guy. Heck the pashtuns who speak Urdu (even punjabi in some cases) feels less alien. Majority of Tamils and Malayali I met could not speak Hindi (Or knew Hindi but won't speak it for some reason), so we didn't feel the connection.

If I see Khana and a Malayali guy sitting in a room, I'd go and start talking to Khana first, as he is more familiar. No offence Bmoney, you are a bro.

loll why did I get dragged into this

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 01:41 PM
loll why did I get dragged into this

You're the resident Mallu

redifflal
11-08-2017, 04:19 PM
It's a function of how rural or rurban or urban your upbringing as well as your roots are in the subcontinent. My upbringing in Kolkata as well as my ancestral home being a suburb of Kolkata itself meant I didn't have a true connection to the idyllic "gram Bangla" (rural Bengal). My school and neighbourhood had very pan Indian characteristics to them with a Kolkata flavor. Majority of my classmates were Bengalis (also Hindus, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Bengali Muslim), but barely. The other half were Marwaris, Gujjus, Urdu speaking Muslims, a good 10% were Chinese. There were also one or two Anglo Indians, Parsees, Assamese and Tamils.

Most Bengalis from Kolkata are more comfortable around other Indians than with Bangladeshis. But when I fly back to India via Doha or Dubai, I come across folks from rural West Bengal that actually work in the Gulf as blue collar workers and they naturally get along with Bangladeshis.

Imo at the base level there is Bharat as a civilization, and Bharat has its natural linguistic divisions as its cultural subdivisions. If you're in the rural or easily rurally rooted, then the level of interaction as simply Punjabis or Bengalis is natural. On top of Bharat is that imposition of the various nation states whether that is India or Pakistan or Bangladesh. The cities, the education institutions, the corporate institutions, the military etc are all instruments of the nation state, so they form a different bond in people that are associated at that level.

Zayd
11-08-2017, 08:23 PM
It's a function of how rural or rurban or urban your upbringing as well as your roots are in the subcontinent. My upbringing in Kolkata as well as my ancestral home being a suburb of Kolkata itself meant I didn't have a true connection to the idyllic "gram Bangla" (rural Bengal). My school and neighbourhood had very pan Indian characteristics to them with a Kolkata flavor. Majority of my classmates were Bengalis (also Hindus, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Bengali Muslim), but barely. The other half were Marwaris, Gujjus, Urdu speaking Muslims, a good 10% were Chinese. There were also one or two Anglo Indians, Parsees, Assamese and Tamils.

Most Bengalis from Kolkata are more comfortable around other Indians than with Bangladeshis. But when I fly back to India via Doha or Dubai, I come across folks from rural West Bengal that actually work in the Gulf as blue collar workers and they naturally get along with Bangladeshis.

Imo at the base level there is Bharat as a civilization, and Bharat has its natural linguistic divisions as its cultural subdivisions. If you're in the rural or easily rurally rooted, then the level of interaction as simply Punjabis or Bengalis is natural. On top of Bharat is that imposition of the various nation states whether that is India or Pakistan or Bangladesh. The cities, the education institutions, the corporate institutions, the military etc are all instruments of the nation state, so they form a different bond in people that are associated at that level.

Does that mean even Bangals from urban Kolkata don't get along with Bangladeshis? or they became naturalized Ghotis haha
There was a Bengali from Kolkata that worked in a Bangladeshi Grocery store near my town, I never asked him if he was from Gram or Urban city but he talked with a typical Kolkata accent.
Also in Bangladesh there are significant differences between urban and rural folks(many subdivision among them), but ive seen my parents and grandparents easily can get along with both type of folks , as we are middle-upper class in the same time also from rural area(now almost urbanized).My grandfather was a senior engineer in the famous Adamjee Jute Mills(The largest in the world IIRC) during East Pakistan era, he always talks in standard Bengali but my gandmother is more comfortable in local "Homna" dialect. BTW, I agree with the last part of your post.

In the middle east I think majority of South Asians, that is Bengalis, Indians, Pakistanis or Srilankans get along with each other very well as almost all of them are from a similar socioeconomic background. In Italy, South Asians constitute a small percentage but they get along with each other easily. I come across many Pakistanis in the city where my university is located, they automatically start talking in Urdu or Punjabi with me and I have to answer in broken Urdu lol as many are not fluent in Italian, but I hadn't any problem with Pakistani folks of my age that are fluent in Italian, actually we talk about desi foods, Cricket, Bollywood... in Italian. I guess the same happens in the UK or USA just by looking at expat's Vlogs on YouTube.
These are my personal experiences maybe not suitable for a generalisation.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 08:50 PM
Does that mean even Bangals from urban Kolkata don't get along with Bangladeshis? or they became naturalized Ghotis haha
There was a Bengali from Kolkata that worked in a Bangladeshi Grocery store near my town, I never asked him if he was from Gram or Urban city but he talked with a typical Kolkata accent.
Also in Bangladesh there are significant differences between urban and rural folks(many subdivision among them), but ive seen my parents and grandparents easily can get along with both type of folks , as we are middle-upper class in the same time also from rural area(now almost urbanized).My grandfather was a senior engineer in the famous Adamjee Jute Mills(The largest in the world IIRC) during East Pakistan era, he always talks in standard Bengali but my gandmother is more comfortable in local "Homna" dialect. BTW, I agree with the last part of your post.

In the middle east I think majority of South Asians, that is Bengalis, Indians, Pakistanis or Srilankans get along with each other very well as almost all of them are from a similar socioeconomic background. In Italy, South Asians constitute a small percentage but they get along with each other easily. I come across many Pakistanis in the city where my university is located, they automatically start talking in Urdu or Punjabi with me and I have to answer in broken Urdu lol as many are not fluent in Italian, but I hadn't any problem with Pakistani folks of my age that are fluent in Italian, actually we talk about desi foods, Cricket, Bollywood... in Italian. I guess the same happens in the UK or USA just by looking at expat's Vlogs on YouTube.
These are my personal experiences maybe not suitable for a generalisation.

For people who were born in west it is a different experience. My dad lived in Dubai for 34 years, and it has big population of workers from Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Srilanka. His best friend is a pakistani punjabi. Aside from work i have never seen him interacting with someone who's not from NW. Although could be the reason because he was a civil engineer. They all used to play Cricket on the weekend though.
But that's more like universal connection.

Lara101
11-08-2017, 08:52 PM
Indic denotes Indo Aryan, Dardic is a branch of it, what are you babbling?
Also from my understanding, Desi is a loose term for the cultural construct , irrespective of religion, which compromises Indo Aryan speaking populations in Indus-Gangetic plains ie Pakistan and Northern India and a common understanding of the Hindustani vernacular and social mores and understandings which come along with it.

Also from what I have observed in university and work, Northern Indians in particular Indian Punjabis gravitate towards Pakistanis almost immediately and rarely interact with South Indians outside work in a social manner. Which just goes to show the power of understanding a similar language,food and having a common social understanding.

Desi is a very well used term, it clearly defines the Indic identity, obviously especially outside India/Pakistan and obviously Punjabis will interact with each other, because there is no difference between the two, just religion. That is my point from the beginning, but there are people causing division in the name of religion, this is very well understood, go see Pakistani media

Lara101
11-08-2017, 08:54 PM
This, I can relate to. Before coming to Canada I never had any interaction with people from South or East or even Gujarat/Maharashtra. So when we guys come to west, South Indians or Bengalis are more alien to us than a Punjabi from Pakistan or a karachi guy. Heck the pashtuns who speak Urdu (even punjabi in some cases) feels less alien. Majority of Tamils and Malayali I met could not speak Hindi (Or knew Hindi but won't speak it for some reason), so we didn't feel the connection.

If I see Khana and a Malayali guy sitting in a room, I'd go and start talking to Khana first, as he is more familiar. No offence Bmoney, you are a bro.

Um, most people from Maharashtra speak hindi, unless you migrated when you were a baby or only lived in Pind in India, you are wrong here. All the major cities of India have populations from everywhere and interaction between Indians from everywhere happens daily

Lara101
11-08-2017, 09:00 PM
For people who were born in west it is a different experience. My dad lived in Dubai for 34 years, and it has big population of workers from Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Srilanka. His best friend is a pakistani punjabi. Aside from work i have never seen him interacting with someone who's not from NW. Although could be the reason because he was a civil engineer. They all used to play Cricket on the weekend though.
But that's more like universal connection.

Dude anyone can interact with anyone, you can be from the other side of the planet, you dont have to be from the same group to become social. Your dad must be very anti social, thats why he never interacted with non punjabis . Also on a side note, If that is your picture, you very much look Indian, you can't be confused for anything but Indian, You can only fit in Punjab to UP zone pretty much, very rarely outside that

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 09:02 PM
Um, most people from Maharashtra speak hindi, unless you migrated when you were a baby or only lived in Pind in India, you are wrong here. All the major cities of India have populations from everywhere and interaction between Indians from everywhere happens daily

I didn't know you knew my experience better than me, thanks for opening my eyes! :)

And why are you commenting on my picture, or the nature of my dad, I look like what I'm lol, it's irrelevant to the topic.

pegasus
11-08-2017, 09:31 PM
Desi is a very well used term, it clearly defines the Indic identity, obviously especially outside India/Pakistan and obviously Punjabis will interact with each other, because there is no difference between the two, just religion. That is my point from the beginning, but there are people causing division in the name of religion, this is very well understood, go see Pakistani media

Firstly this is a science forum , if your going to use the term Indic, you have to realize its used for linguistic purposes. You are conflating a lot of trollish BS btw.

pegasus
11-08-2017, 09:34 PM
Dude anyone can interact with anyone, you can be from the other side of the planet, you dont have to be from the same group to become social. Your dad must be very anti social, thats why he never interacted with non punjabis . Also on a side note, If that is your picture, you very much look Indian, you can't be confused for anything but Indian, You can only fit in Punjab to UP zone pretty much, very rarely outside that

I don't know at what liberty you are to make that idiotic judgement. Most people regardless of what culture they are from will gravitate to people who share similar cultural constructs, that does not make them anti social. You are purposely trolling to get reactions out of people, I notice. Do enjoy your short stay on the forum, because you are making an utter buffoon of yourself.

Lara101
11-08-2017, 09:39 PM
Firstly this is a science forum , if your going to use the term Indic, you have to realize its used for linguistic purposes. You are conflating a lot of trollish BS btw.

There is a desi identity, not sure how is this even a argument, nearly all desi hang with each other outside of south asia, so not sure what are you even trying to deny

Lara101
11-08-2017, 09:43 PM
I don't know at what liberty you are to make that idiotic judgement. Most people regardless of what culture they are from will gravitate to people who share similar cultural constructs, that does not make them anti social. You are purposely trolling to get reactions out of people, I notice. Do enjoy your short stay on the forum, because you are making an utter buffoon of yourself.

yes, but to say they will not interact with anyone but their own desi group is pure BS to me. I know so many indian pakistanis here that interact with each other, be it from whatever state. All desis relate to each other outside of south asia.

Lara101
11-08-2017, 09:44 PM
I don't know at what liberty you are to make that idiotic judgement. Most people regardless of what culture they are from will gravitate to people who share similar cultural constructs, that does not make them anti social. You are purposely trolling to get reactions out of people, I notice. Do enjoy your short stay on the forum, because you are making an utter buffoon of yourself.

yes, but to say they will not interact with anyone but their own desi group is pure BS to me. I know so many indian pakistanis here that interact with each other, be it from whatever state. All desis relate to each other outside of south asia. Some People are just trying to differentiate themselves for no reason, despite looking 100% the same as their country folks

pegasus
11-08-2017, 09:47 PM
Dude anyone can interact with anyone, you can be from the other side of the planet, you dont have to be from the same group to become social. Your dad must be very anti social, thats why he never interacted with non punjabis . Also on a side note, If that is your picture, you very much look Indian, you can't be confused for anything but Indian, You can only fit in Punjab to UP zone pretty much, very rarely outside that

In North America, people would assume he a Mestizo/Hispanic tbh, hell I would. I would hardly call his looks typical especially at 6'5 lol.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 09:47 PM
^ Strawman argument, I never said we don't interact with other "Desis" as you say, I simply talked about the connection, I feel closer to a NW Indian/Pakistani than a South Indian.

Lara101
11-08-2017, 09:49 PM
In North America, people would assume he a Mestizo/Hispanic tbh, hell I would. I would hardly call his looks typical especially at 6'5 lol.

Please ask that in the Hispanic section, we will all get good laughs lol

pegasus
11-08-2017, 09:51 PM
yes, but to say they will not interact with anyone but their own desi group is pure BS to me. I know so many indian pakistanis here that interact with each other, be it from whatever state. All desis relate to each other outside of south asia. Some People are just trying to differentiate themselves for no reason, despite looking 100% the same as their country folks

Again your conflating BS, and misconstruing things. You seem to have some complex of some sort, that is clearly evident. First you are misconstruing things about Pakistanis, than you are making ridiculous assumptions on member's fathers. Before typing, try thinking first.

pegasus
11-08-2017, 09:52 PM
Please ask that in the Hispanic section, we will all get good laughs lol

You are making a joke of yourself all on your own.

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:24 PM
Um, most people from Maharashtra speak hindi, unless you migrated when you were a baby or only lived in Pind in India, you are wrong here. All the major cities of India have populations from everywhere and interaction between Indians from everywhere happens daily

Loll yeh Dluffy is typical Kaneda pind da sarpanch, I'm used to being stereotyped, but because hes good looking ill let it go

The facts are:

Im ethnically from Kerala
My mom and brother are born and raised in Delhi, I was born in Hyderabad but raised in Delhi
My grandmother was raised in Karachi British India - Indian Air Force, most of my family was raised in the north due to the army connection
I went to school in Ahmedabad and survived there without knowing a word of Gujarati because everyone spoke Hindi - Mumbai would be the same
My relatives in Kerala can understand, read and write Hindi because its taught in school there, not sure about the rest of South India - but im sure they butcher the accent

But no doubt you gravitate towards people who speak the same language, thats only natural

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:26 PM
Again your conflating BS, and misconstruing things. You seem to have some complex of some sort, that is clearly evident. First you are misconstruing things about Pakistanis, than you are making ridiculous assumptions on member's fathers. Before typing, try thinking first.

Agreed, Lara is a professional troll

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:32 PM
In North America, people would assume he a Mestizo/Hispanic tbh, hell I would. I would hardly call his looks typical especially at 6'5 lol.

Yeah Dluffy would not look like anyone from outside Punjab in India, maybe Kashmiri

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:39 PM
It's a function of how rural or rurban or urban your upbringing as well as your roots are in the subcontinent. My upbringing in Kolkata as well as my ancestral home being a suburb of Kolkata itself meant I didn't have a true connection to the idyllic "gram Bangla" (rural Bengal). My school and neighbourhood had very pan Indian characteristics to them with a Kolkata flavor. Majority of my classmates were Bengalis (also Hindus, I didn't even know there was such a thing as a Bengali Muslim), but barely. The other half were Marwaris, Gujjus, Urdu speaking Muslims, a good 10% were Chinese. There were also one or two Anglo Indians, Parsees, Assamese and Tamils.

Most Bengalis from Kolkata are more comfortable around other Indians than with Bangladeshis. But when I fly back to India via Doha or Dubai, I come across folks from rural West Bengal that actually work in the Gulf as blue collar workers and they naturally get along with Bangladeshis.

Imo at the base level there is Bharat as a civilization, and Bharat has its natural linguistic divisions as its cultural subdivisions. If you're in the rural or easily rurally rooted, then the level of interaction as simply Punjabis or Bengalis is natural. On top of Bharat is that imposition of the various nation states whether that is India or Pakistan or Bangladesh. The cities, the education institutions, the corporate institutions, the military etc are all instruments of the nation state, so they form a different bond in people that are associated at that level.

Loll theres Marwaris and Gujjus in every city on the planet

jesus
11-08-2017, 11:40 PM
For people who were born in west it is a different experience. My dad lived in Dubai for 34 years, and it has big population of workers from Bangladesh, India, Pakistan, Srilanka. His best friend is a pakistani punjabi. Aside from work i have never seen him interacting with someone who's not from NW. Although could be the reason because he was a civil engineer. They all used to play Cricket on the weekend though.
But that's more like universal connection.

Sometimes religion also plays a role. In the gulf Pakistani and India Muslims usually get along. South Indian Christians there often form close relationships with other Christians in the region(usually from SE Asia). The shia south Asians gravitate towards the native shias and work for/with them usually.

bmoney
11-08-2017, 11:44 PM
^ Strawman argument, I never said we don't interact with other "Desis" as you say, I simply talked about the connection, I feel closer to a NW Indian/Pakistani than a South Indian.

Agree with this sentiment, especially as Punjabis are largely genetically indistinguishable

Tricky question for you, would you feel more kinship with a Sikh Chamar or a Muslim Tarkhan

MonkeyDLuffy
11-08-2017, 11:53 PM
Agree with this sentiment, especially as Punjabis are largely genetically indistinguishable

Tricky question for you, would you feel more kinship with a Sikh Chamar or a Muslim Tarkhan

To be honest, a Sikh Chamar. For the simple fact as jesus stated, religion plays a big role and I totally agree with it.

surbakhunWeesste
11-08-2017, 11:53 PM
I love this thread and it feeds my need for entertainment atm, thank you all.
Anyhoe
The user Monkey can easily be someone from Afghanistan, he even has genetic affinity to people from Afghanistan and there are some users from India/Pakistan here who can physically look like they are from parts of South Central Asia/West Asia in the old world. They can be mistaken for a lot of groups in the new world. There are a lot of people from the Sub continent who can look like they are from outside of their region, what is the big deal about that?

A person is able and can form any kind of cultural affiliation, for example there are a lot of dards and seriaki who are becoming Pashtuns. why can't you suck that reality up? One may not look like they belong to a region phenotypically, if there are other factors they consider to be of importance to form an affinity who are we to question them and for what? For the reason that they didn't heed to our form of agenda/propaganda? Why should anyone accord by what you think is the right thing to do in that context? Again going by your books, Pangaea should be the reality of the earth and the humans should all have one culture/language.....because diversity in any form sucks.

jesus
11-08-2017, 11:56 PM
Well if we count chg+ Iran Neolithic as West Asian then most south Asians are largely west Asian. I know this might sound controversial to some people, but that's the reality. The only major difference is ASI.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 12:07 AM
Well if we count chg+ Iran Neolithic as West Asian then most south Asians are largely west Asian. I know this might sound controversial to some people, but that's the reality. The only major difference is ASI.

I like the word "Zagrosian" better. If they do find earlier Hotu types in C/SC Asia that would change. I consider CHG more West Asian because of its enormous importance in the region, as well Caucasus. Zagros/Hotu are so strikingly different from Halaf/Samarra and Natufian farmers, their connection with Central Asia , and more so Northern Asia , sets them apart from other farmer groups.

Also the difference is the UHG between CHG and Iran_N.

Lara101
11-09-2017, 12:41 AM
Well if we count chg+ Iran Neolithic as West Asian then most south Asians are largely west Asian. I know this might sound controversial to some people, but that's the reality. The only major difference is ASI.

South asians cannot be west asian since they are hugely mixed with south east eurasian, a completly different group which almost no other Eurasian is mixed with. South Asians are basically hybrid of two very different populations, this is why we look different from others just west of us

Lara101
11-09-2017, 12:45 AM
I love this thread and it feeds my need for entertainment atm, thank you all.
Anyhoe
The user Monkey can easily be someone from Afghanistan, he even has genetic affinity to people from Afghanistan and there are some users from India/Pakistan here who can physically look like they are from parts of South Central Asia/West Asia in the old world. They can be mistaken for a lot of groups in the new world. There are a lot of people from the Sub continent who can look like they are from outside of their region, what is the big deal about that?

A person is able and can form any kind of cultural affiliation, for example there are a lot of dards and seriaki who are becoming Pashtuns. why can't you suck that reality up? One may not look like they belong to a region phenotypically, if there are other factors they consider to be of importance to form an affinity who are we to question them and for what? For the reason that they didn't heed to our form of agenda/propaganda? Why should anyone accord by what you think is the right thing to do in that context? Again going by your books, Pangaea should be the reality of the earth and the humans should all have one culture/language.....because diversity in any form sucks.

I have never seen an afghan or pashtun like that, and i live in Canada where thousands of afghans/pashtuns live,his look is almost completly Indian, especially his eyes and nose, which totally give away he is Indian. The only other place he may fit is among gulf arabs, gulf arabs can resemble indians, but afghans dont

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 12:59 AM
I have never seen an afghan or pashtun like that, and i live in Canada where thousands of afghans/pashtuns live,his look is almost completly Indian, especially his eyes and nose, which totally give away he is Indian. The only other place he may fit is among gulf arabs, gulf arabs can resemble indians, but afghans dont

Its subjective ofc, just because you don't find him typical to the region doesn't mean he doesn't fit in the spectrum of phenotypes found in Afghanistan. I am pretty sure people have mistaken him for a lot of ethnicities now that he lives in North America, despite his liking/disliking. It is very common unless, generally one fits within a stereotyped phenotype one can be easily mistaken for tons of ethnic groups.

You make it seem like Afghans are pleiadians or hell residents or something and we can only look like 'Afghans' and no one else can look like us, what do you have against us? haha.
That is not even important imo, but it is a fun topic to explore sometimes.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 01:02 AM
Just in case people forgot. 18 pages ago the topic of this thread was, "What is South East Eurasian"? Not, "What is Desi"?.

Lara101
11-09-2017, 01:05 AM
Its subjective ofc, just because you don't find him typical to the region doesn't mean he doesn't fit in the spectrum of phenotypes found in Afghanistan. I am pretty sure people have mistaken him for a lot of ethnicities now that he lives in North America, despite his liking/disliking. It is very common unless, generally one fits within a stereotyped phenotype one can be easily mistaken for tons of ethnic groups.

You make it seem like Afghans are pleiadians or hell residents or something and we can only look like 'Afghans' and no one else can look like us, what do you have against us? haha.
That is not even important imo, but it is a fun topic to explore sometimes.

It will be very rare for afghans/ pashtuns to look indian, even the darker afghans look different.
gulf arabs, some southern iranians and some baloch, they can look indian

pegasus
11-09-2017, 01:13 AM
South asians cannot be west asian since they are hugely mixed with south east eurasian, a completly different group which almost no other Eurasian is mixed with. South Asians are basically hybrid of two very different populations, this is why we look different from others just west of us

Again you are talking BS. Most South Asians base ancestry is largely Iran_N/Hotu related , with upper caste NW South Asians, they have additional CHG like stuff mediated via Steppe and SC Asian demic diffusions, its DEFINITELY over 50% if you look at it in terms of the "teal" component ie (ANE+Basal), this might change once we get more archaic genomes but regardless the main ancestry in most South Asians are largely these Iran_N/Hotu , I doubt that will change much.

In terms of phenotypes , while there is a pan South Asian type, there is definitely a lot of diversity, in NW South Asia, especially in the region extending from the Potohar plateau towards the KPK/Chitral ie Hindu Kush region.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 01:14 AM
It will be very rare for afghans/ pashtuns to look indian, even the darker afghans look different.
gulf arabs, some southern iranians and some baloch, they can look indian

it is subjective myen, idk what you saw in Canada and what your perception is on Afghans, we have many ethnic groups and diverse phenotypes, perhaps you should visit Afghanistan ;)

I don't look like your typical Afghan either and I come across wack situations just almost every day as so user Monkey or many others in this forum, that's the magic of the new world. I mentioned somewhere in this forum: I have ethnic Afghan family members who can look native from Norway to Vietnam, just so you know that's past the Indian Sub continent. Perhaps, we should celebrate this phenomena instead of belittling it.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 01:23 AM
It will be very rare for afghans/ pashtuns to look indian, even the darker afghans look different.
gulf arabs, some southern iranians and some baloch, they can look indian

Afghanistan pretty much runs ALL the gamut of phenotypes of its neighbors ( Iran, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan)+ even more diversity given its unique location. Dark skin does not equate to being Indian, lmao. Btw there are quite a few SA members who easily fit in the diversity. The Durrand line does not transform you into something else lol.

You are purposely trolling, and degrading the integrity of the forum.

poi
11-09-2017, 01:24 AM
Its subjective ofc, just because you don't find him typical to the region doesn't mean he doesn't fit in the spectrum of phenotypes found in Afghanistan. I am pretty sure people have mistaken him for a lot of ethnicities now that he lives in North America, despite his liking/disliking. It is very common unless, generally one fits within a stereotyped phenotype one can be easily mistaken for tons of ethnic groups.

You make it seem like Afghans are pleiadians or hell residents or something and we can only look like 'Afghans' and no one else can look like us, what do you have against us? haha.
That is not even important imo, but it is a fun topic to explore sometimes.

Being of certain ethnicity does illicit stereotyping and negativity, but not sure what Lara, as an Indian, has against Afghans. If anything, I've seen Afghanistan and Afghans included in Greater India and a matter of pride.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 01:57 AM
Being of certain ethnicity does illicit stereotyping and negativity, but not sure what Lara, as an Indian, has against Afghans. If anything, I've seen Afghanistan and Afghans included in Greater India and a matter of pride.

I don't quite understand what that means? You mean by the radical Hindus and as in part of Akhund Bharat in recent times or in the past as parts of Afghanistan used to be called "White India" lulz by some ancient historians?

poi
11-09-2017, 02:30 AM
I don't quite understand what that means? You mean by the radical Hindus and as in part of Akhund Bharat in recent times or in the past as parts of Afghanistan used to be called "White India" lulz by some ancient historians?

I would think radical Hindus would consider Afghans to be mortal enemies of Hindus. They even call clearly Mughal Taj Mahal to be ancient shiva temple. Not a logical bunch. I guess I was speaking of casual non political Hindus. My social contacts are exclusively Nepali outside of work. At work, I was talking to a couple of Indians and talked about 23andme results where they were lumping Afghanistan and Tibet into South Asia.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 03:04 AM
I would think radical Hindus would consider Afghans to be mortal enemies of Hindus. They even call clearly Mughal Taj Mahal to be ancient shiva temple. Not a logical bunch. I guess I was speaking of casual non political Hindus. My social contacts are exclusively Nepali outside of work. At work, I was talking to a couple of Indians and talked about 23andme results where they were lumping Afghanistan and Tibet into South Asia.

Ah! well in recent times we have had dislocated poverty ridden Afghans due to war, in massive numbers: who fled their native land and then we have ethnic Tibetans who lost their country.
A lot of Afghans esp. of the Shia sect like Hazaras, Aimaqs Shias etc fled to Iran, who are perhaps Iranian culturally now? and Sunnis who weren't allowed access into Iran made their way out via Pakistan and now you will find a lot of transplant Afghan refugees in Pakistan, India, the west etc. In that sense, people will now start lumping Afghans within the "Indic" realm within the sub continent and there will be Afghans who will have a different identity as they mix in the west.
Now for Tibetans, they fled to India(Himachal) and Nepal(Kathmandu) and who now speak and perhaps are accustomed to Indian way of life, they will now get lumped with the Indic population say like he Sikkim, Laddakh, Seven sister states people....
We can access similar events in the past, for example the Pashtun Lodhi dynasty in India ages ago, now their descendants(different life events causing it) are Indians though we can still find people who claim Pashtun ancestry being genetically similar to someone like me or my family but culturally, they aren't Afghans.
So for me it it boils down to one's culture in continuum and its residual aspects.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 03:06 AM
oh well, there goes off my entertainment. :P

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 03:11 AM
She/he got banned. Oh well.

poi
11-09-2017, 03:28 AM
Ah! well in recent times we have had dislocated poverty ridden Afghans due to war, in massive numbers: who fled their native land and then we have ethnic Tibetans who lost their country.
A lot of Afghans esp. of the Shia sect like Hazaras, Aimaqs Shias etc fled to Iran, who are perhaps Iranian culturally now? and Sunnis who weren't allowed access into Iran made their way out via Pakistan and now you will find a lot of transplant Afghan refugees in Pakistan, India, the west etc. In that sense, people will now start lumping Afghans within the "Indic" realm within the sub continent and there will be Afghans who will have a different identity as they mix in the west.
Now for Tibetans, they fled to India(Himachal) and Nepal(Kathmandu) and who now speak and perhaps are accustomed to Indian way of life, they will now get lumped with the Indic population say like he Sikkim, Laddakh, Seven sister states people....
We can access similar events in the past, for example the Pashtun Lodhi dynasty in India ages ago, now their descendants(different life events causing it) are Indians though we can still find people who claim Pashtun ancestry being genetically similar to someone like me or my family but culturally, they aren't Afghans.
So for me it it boils down to one's culture in continuum and its residual aspects.

I don't even remember what prompted our discussion but I agree 100%!

bmoney
11-09-2017, 04:05 AM
She/he got banned. Oh well.

finally, that guys troll game was strong - or he had issues

passion
11-09-2017, 04:37 AM
So he got banned lol

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?1975-Pakistan-and-the-Muhajir-perspective-split-thread

pegasus
11-09-2017, 06:00 AM
I would think radical Hindus would consider Afghans to be mortal enemies of Hindus. They even call clearly Mughal Taj Mahal to be ancient shiva temple. Not a logical bunch. I guess I was speaking of casual non political Hindus. My social contacts are exclusively Nepali outside of work. At work, I was talking to a couple of Indians and talked about 23andme results where they were lumping Afghanistan and Tibet into South Asia.

Afghanistan is a complicated place. Geopolitically its very connected with South Asia, culturally and linguistically it shares a significant amount with Iran, especially contemporary urban areas, exception being Jalalabad. That being said the Pashtuns , who form a substantial part of the population do have a distinctive culture. Eastern Afghanistan ( Kunar, Laghman, Nangarhar) are very culturally connected with KPK in Pakistan. Also contemporary Pakistan does hold a significant influence in those eastern areas in particular, you see the influence especially on Pashto dialects, some have considerable Urdu/Hindustani loan words as well as English, via Pakistani cultural influence, where as Pashto dialects spoken in Southern Afghanistan lack that completely. The power of tv media has been immense, cricket is very popular in those regions I mentioned , and generally in Pashtun areas. The national cricket team is entirely Pashtun as well.
Also it is interesting to note these areas I specifically mentioned, were largely populated by Dardic or other Indo Aryan related peoples who were Pashtunized over time. So its complicated.
This kid is a good example of the result of complicated geopolitics lol. He is the son of Afghan Pashtun refugees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqlxvtmD53c

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 07:15 AM
Afghanistan is a complicated place. Geopolitically its very connected with South Asia, culturally and linguistically it shares a significant amount with Iran, especially contemporary urban areas, exception being Jalalabad. That being said the Pashtuns , who form a substantial part of the population do have a distinctive culture. Eastern Afghanistan ( Kunar, Laghman, Nangarhar) are very culturally connected with KPK in Pakistan. Also contemporary Pakistan does hold a significant influence in those eastern areas in particular, you see the influence especially on Pashto dialects, some have considerable Urdu/Hindustani loan words as well as English, via Pakistani cultural influence, where as Pashto dialects spoken in Southern Afghanistan lack that completely. The power of tv media has been immense, cricket is very popular in those regions I mentioned , and generally in Pashtun areas. The national cricket team is entirely Pashtun as well.
Also it is interesting to note these areas I specifically mentioned, were largely populated by Dardic or other Indo Aryan related peoples who were Pashtunized over time. So its complicated.
This kid is a good example of the result of complicated geopolitics lol. He is the son of Afghan Pashtun refugees.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqlxvtmD53c

Sorry for my ignorance but I want to know where the real Pashtoons live? According to some people here on this forum Pashtoons of Kunar, laghman and Nangarhar are Pashtunized dardics. On what basis you are caliming that. The people of FATA are also not real Pashtoons.The people of Peshawar, Mardan, Charsada, Nowshera etc or whatever Pashtoons living in KPK are Pashtoonized Punjabis. In short all the Pashtoons in Pakistan or the majority of Pashtoons are not real Pashtoons. Where the real Pashtoons live?? I am confused.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 07:45 AM
Sorry for my ignorance but I want to know where the real Pashtoons live? According to some people here on this forum Pashtoons of Kunar, laghman and Nangarhar are Pashtunized dardics. On what basis you are caliming that. The people of FATA are also not real Pashtoons.The people of Peshawar, Mardan, Charsada, Nowshera etc or whatever Pashtoons living in KPK are Pashtoonized Punjabis. In short all the Pashtoons in Pakistan or the majority of Pashtoons are not real Pashtoons. Where the real Pashtoons live?? I am confused.

Firstly all are Pashtuns, I am not saying one group is illegitimate over the other lol. How do I know they are Dardics, thats easy because most of their Steppe derived ancestry comes out mostly or entirely Yamnaya and their other Farmer ancestry is almost entirely Iran_N/Hotu like , just like other NW South Asians. These Pashtuns from the South, have largely Androvono Steppe ancestry and they have more Iran_Chl ancestry, not as much as Pamiri Tajiks , I believe its facilitated either by East Iranic groups like Scythians who carried a good dose of Iran_Chl and/or mediated via flow of people into Southern Afghanistan via Jiroft culture in SE Iran. If you look at the results of Kalash and those KPK Pashtuns Khana posts, their results also look similar too. In that calculator result Khana posted of Kalash, they score almost all 0 in SW Euro and SW Asian , which infers a lack of Androvono and Iran_Chl .

Ethnogenesis of first Pashtuns I think is in Southern Afghanistan and Loghar-Paktia-Khost regions IMO.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 08:06 AM
Firstly all are Pashtuns, I am not saying one group is illegitimate over the other lol. How do I know they are Dardics, thats easy because most of their Steppe derived ancestry comes out mostly or entirely Yamnaya and their other Farmer ancestry is almost entirely Iran_N/Hotu like , just like other NW South Asians. These Pashtuns from the South, have largely Androvono Steppe ancestry and they have more Iran_Chl ancestry, not as much as Pamiri Tajiks , I believe its facilitated either by East Iranic groups like Scythians who carried a good dose of Iran_Chl and/or mediated via flow of people into Southern Afghanistan via Jiroft culture in SE Iran. If you look at the results of Kalash and those KPK Pashtuns Khana posts, their results also look similar too. In that calculator result Khana posted of Kalash, they score almost all 0 in SW Euro and SW Asian , which infers a lack of Androvono and Iran_Chl .

Ethnogenesis of first Pashtuns I think is in Southern Afghanistan and Loghar-Paktia-Khost regions IMO.

Thanks. So a dardic should have low West Euro and South West Asian. What are these North European and Siberian components which are low in Afghan Pashtoons??

pegasus
11-09-2017, 08:52 AM
Thanks. So a dardic should have low West Euro and South West Asian. What are these North European and Siberian components which are low in Afghan Pashtoons??

SW Euro denotes EEF like stuff, no Afghan Pashtuns have elevated NE Euro not as high as Kalash or Kho
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=3EEB7FF0539CE6F!12348&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AKqeZzWJdvz5KV8

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 11:02 AM
You don't have to say something when its already understood. Also as Khana mentioned its a term from my observation largely used in the West. Also I notice a lot of your posts are troll bait.
Also I googled "Kader Khan" , for a man who has written a lot of the famous dialogues for Amitabh Bachchan and acted in a gazillion Bollywood movies, he has already immortalized himself in contemporary Hindi/Urdu art culture he dos not have to prove sh!t to anyone. Also he cannot be Western Pakistani, he was born in 1937 in Kabul with his family roots in Kandahar ie he is of Afghani Pashtun origin but who grew up in Bombay.
Also where are you deducing Western Pakistanis are that way, did you fly to Rawalpindi and conduct a poll?

By Western Pakistanis he meant Pashtuns and Baloch (west of Indus), not people around Rawalpindi.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 11:30 AM
SW Euro denotes EEF like stuff, no Afghan Pashtuns have elevated NE Euro not as high as Kalash or Kho
https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=3EEB7FF0539CE6F!12348&ithint=file%2cxlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AKqeZzWJdvz5KV8

I am not a students of genetics but can make sense of admixture results. After thoroughly examining the admixture results I have cocluded that it is better that we shouldn't use linguist classification here because it doesn't makes sense. For generlization geography makes the best sense of genetics but it has its shortcomings too. However its the best we can have.

bmoney
11-09-2017, 11:50 AM
Firstly all are Pashtuns, I am not saying one group is illegitimate over the other lol. How do I know they are Dardics, thats easy because most of their Steppe derived ancestry comes out mostly or entirely Yamnaya and their other Farmer ancestry is almost entirely Iran_N/Hotu like , just like other NW South Asians. These Pashtuns from the South, have largely Androvono Steppe ancestry and they have more Iran_Chl ancestry, not as much as Pamiri Tajiks , I believe its facilitated either by East Iranic groups like Scythians who carried a good dose of Iran_Chl and/or mediated via flow of people into Southern Afghanistan via Jiroft culture in SE Iran. If you look at the results of Kalash and those KPK Pashtuns Khana posts, their results also look similar too. In that calculator result Khana posted of Kalash, they score almost all 0 in SW Euro and SW Asian , which infers a lack of Androvono and Iran_Chl .

Ethnogenesis of first Pashtuns I think is in Southern Afghanistan and Loghar-Paktia-Khost regions IMO.

Don't know if this is connected but Hap L is much more common in Afghan Pashtuns than Pakistani Pashtuns - my guess is Afghan Pashtuns cluster more with Kalash and Balochs, and Pakistan Pashtuns cluster with Tajiks

passion
11-09-2017, 12:23 PM
Sorry for my ignorance but I want to know where the real Pashtoons live? According to some people here on this forum Pashtoons of Kunar, laghman and Nangarhar are Pashtunized dardics. On what basis you are caliming that. The people of FATA are also not real Pashtoons.The people of Peshawar, Mardan, Charsada, Nowshera etc or whatever Pashtoons living in KPK are Pashtoonized Punjabis. In short all the Pashtoons in Pakistan or the majority of Pashtoons are not real Pashtoons. Where the real Pashtoons live?? I am confused.

IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 02:07 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like

Chitralis don't have Indic ancestry. Its even hilarious to say that. Its like saying Chitralis have European ancestory just because Chitralis have some european genes. Chitralis are the denizens of the valleys of Chitral and as far as I remember was never part of greater India except the British. You can correct me if I am wrong. I don't know on what grounds you are saying that Chitralis have Indic ancestry. I don't know about Pashtoons but one thing I know that we are not Pashtoons and are different people.

passion
11-09-2017, 02:13 PM
Chitralis don't have Indic ancestry. Its even hilarious to say that. Its like saying Chitralis have European ancestory just because Chitralis have some european genes. Chitralis are the denizens of the valleys of Chitral and as far as I remember was never part of greater India except the British. You can correct me if I am wrong. I don't know on what grounds you are saying that Chitralis have Indic ancestry. I don't know about Pashtoons but one thing I know that we are not Pashtoons and are different people.

I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 02:23 PM
Do we have any results of Chitrali people?

passion
11-09-2017, 02:29 PM
Do we have any results of Chitrali people?

I have seen some , they score highest NE Euro in Pakistan

passion
11-09-2017, 02:31 PM
https://i.gyazo.com/8ffc9d3e73b0a4964794a271598cabe5.png

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 02:39 PM
Seems really similar to jats, except Chitrali seem to have more American+Siberian (ANE?) + East Asian, while jats have ASI instead of that. I liked DMXX explanation, Jats seem to be ASI shifted Tajiks.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 03:46 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Seems really similar to jats, except Chitrali seem to have more American+Siberian (ANE?) + East Asian, while jats have ASI instead of that. I liked DMXX explanation, Jats seem to be ASI shifted Tajiks.

All the ethnicities in the region have similarities with minor difference in various components. Thats why we use these admixtures to find the differences. These small and minor difference make a big difference and charcterize a group. Jatts are closer to an arain, Katri or Kapoor punajbi or any other Punjabi group than a Tajik or a Chitrali.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 03:55 PM
All the ethnicities in the region have similarities with minor difference in various components. Thats why we use these admixtures to find the differences. These small and minor difference make a big difference and charcterize a group. Jatts are closer to an arain, Katri or Kapoor punajbi or any other Punjabi group than a Tajik or a Chitrali.

Of course, my point is, the Euro and west asian levels are same as a haryana/southern punjabi/Rajasthani jatt. South Asian levels are similar, with 3-4% difference which is covered by higher American+East asian+siberian in Chitralis. I'm talking from genetic perspective. The results are here, which you and I both can see.

Also not arains nor Khatris or any other Punjabi groups score as high Euro as Jats in region, which makes them stand out.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 04:06 PM
Chitralis don't have Indic ancestry. Its even hilarious to say that. Its like saying Chitralis have European ancestory just because Chitralis have some european genes. Chitralis are the denizens of the valleys of Chitral and as far as I remember was never part of greater India except the British. You can correct me if I am wrong. I don't know on what grounds you are saying that Chitralis have Indic ancestry. I don't know about Pashtoons but one thing I know that we are not Pashtoons and are different people.

Firstly, here the term "Indic" does not represent India or Pakistan, idk elsewhere but here its sort of refering Indo-Aryan. Kho people are Indo Aryans, most people from that area are linguistically Indo-Aryan and descendants of Indo-Aryans. There are quite some Chitralis who are Pashtuns now. Dardistan is like sating Nuristan, Pashtunistan! and hence the Dard is being used short for Daristani if you will.

No one here is implying Kho are Pashtuns because Pashtuns are Iranic and Indo-Iranic while Kho are Indo-Aryan perhaps with other elements now? but you can't deny that there are many locals from that area who have adapted Pashtun way of life now, including some Kalash.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 04:12 PM
By Western Pakistanis he meant Pashtuns and Baloch (west of Indus), not people around Rawalpindi.

That was not the point, point was he was making assumptions about people without any evidence, also said member is banned

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 04:14 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Of course, my point is, the Euro and west asian levels are same as a haryana/southern punjabi/Rajasthani jatt. South Asian levels are similar, with 3-4% difference which is covered by higher American+East asian+siberian in Chitralis. I'm talking from genetic perspective. The results are here, which you and I both can see.

Also not arains nor Khatris or any other Punjabi groups score as high Euro as Jats in region, which makes them stand out.

Either you are blind or I am or the admixture results on Khanabadoshi spreadsheet are of not Jatts. Go and see for yourself. Where is 3 or 4 % difference in south asian. Most of the differences between Tajiks and Jatts are more than 100% and in some cases even more. For example a yaghnobi Tajik scores 10 south asian on average while a Jatts scores 33. This is not a difference of 23 % but the difference is 330% if you have studied math. Calculate the same for other components and add them and see the difference for yourself. Doesn't mean if DMXX says anything it becomes a law.

jesus
11-09-2017, 04:18 PM
https://i.gyazo.com/8ffc9d3e73b0a4964794a271598cabe5.png

@Khana or others should post the Pamiri/Jatt/etc average for punt for K13 to settle this debate.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 04:21 PM
Darn it. People dissociate from Pashtuns here like we are some kind of a disease SMH

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 04:22 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Firstly, here the term "Indic" does not represent India or Pakistan, idk elsewhere but here its sort of refering Indo-Aryan. Kho people are Indo Aryans, most people from that area are linguistically Indo-Aryan and descendants of Indo-Aryans. There are quite some Chitralis who are Pashtuns now. Dardistan is like sating Nuristan, Pashtunistan! and hence the Dard is being used short for Daristani if you will.

No one here is implying Kho are Pashtuns because Pashtuns are Iranic and Indo-Iranic while Kho are Indo-Aryan perhaps with other elements now? but you can't deny that there are many locals from that area who have adapted Pashtun way of life now, including some Kalash.

Who has adopted Pashtoonwali?? Never seen a Chitrali or Kalash being Pashtoonified. However many Pashtoons in Chitral have Chitralized. I am not talking about Iranian languages. Here we are discussing genetics.

DMXX
11-09-2017, 04:23 PM
... Doesn't mean if DMXX says anything it becomes a law.

Why you're personalizing a discussion tangent I'm not even participating in isn't clear. None of my posts in this thread discuss Chitrali genetics. In fact, I don't remember commenting on Chitralis in well over two years.

Would you like to explain this comment? Unless you thought I was the author of that spreadsheet (I'm not)?

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 04:24 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Why you're personalizing a discussion tangent I'm not even participating in isn't clear. None of my posts in this thread discuss Chitrali genetics. In fact, I don't remember commenting on Chitralis in well over two years.

Would you like to explain this comment? Unless you thought I was the author of that spreadsheet (I'm not)?

You should better ask Monkey who has quoted you.

DMXX
11-09-2017, 04:28 PM
You should better ask Monkey.

I'm asking you. Please explain your choice of words.

Unless you're insinuating Monkey somehow obtained control of your account to make a rather meaningless throwaway comment.

[Edit]: I see the post you're referring to now. Monkey's paraphrasing a comment I made recently, where it looked like Jatts are ASI-shifted Pamiri Tajiks, much the same way Uyghurs appear to be E. Eurasian-shifted Pamiri Tajiks. I didn't comment on Chitralis. That's Monkey's impression. The progression in his post is clear on that.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 04:33 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Why you're personalizing a discussion tangent I'm not even participating in isn't clear. None of my posts in this thread discuss Chitrali genetics. In fact, I don't remember commenting on Chitralis in well over two years.

Would you like to explain this comment? Unless you thought I was the author of that spreadsheet (I'm not)?


I'm asking you. Please explain your choice of words.

Unless you're insinuating Monkey somehow obtained control of your account to make a rather meaningless throwaway comment.

I think you might be the administrator. This guy called Monkey quoted you and I told him that wherever DMXX says cannot be right. Thats all. If you are going to bann me for just having different opinion you are free to go.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 04:35 PM
I'm asking you. Please explain your choice of words.

Unless you're insinuating Monkey somehow obtained control of your account to make a rather meaningless throwaway comment.

[Edit]: I see the post you're referring to now. Monkey's paraphrasing a comment I made recently, where it looked like Jatts are ASI-shifted Pamiri Tajiks, much the same way Uyghurs appear to be E. Eurasian-shifted Pamiri Tajiks. I didn't comment on Chitralis. That's Monkey's impression. The progression in his post is clear on that.

Thanks! That's exactly what I meant!
I specified specifically "Haryana jats and Rajasthani jats and Southern Punjabi Jatts" who seem to score really high Euro, with SI around 25-27 on Harappa, while Chitralis are around 20-24 SI range but they have higher East Asian+American+Siberian which brings them to same level of ENA ancestry. I should have been more clear.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 04:39 PM
Don't know if this is connected but Hap L is much more common in Afghan Pashtuns than Pakistani Pashtuns - my guess is Afghan Pashtuns cluster more with Kalash and Balochs, and Pakistan Pashtuns cluster with Tajiks

Y dna L is more common in N/NE Afghanistan , among Tajiks than Pashtuns. Afghan Pashtuns from the South cluster with Tajiks with low to nil NE Asian admixture. Afghan Pashtuns like members Velvet and former member Barnacle are all pretty much copies of the ones you find in KPK.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 04:39 PM
Who has adopted Pashtoonwali?? Never seen a Chitrali or Kalash being Pashtoonified. However many Pashtoons in Chitral have Chitralized. I am not talking about Iranian languages. Here we are discussing genetics.

Many have. Pashtunification is a long process, its an amalgamation of adaptation to language, people, culture etc. Not just Pashtunfied a person can be persianified blah fied etc. It is not an overnight process!

Well! Pashtuns have persianified, I wouldn't be surprised if they have Chitralified or Indicified, they can as they please.

Language becomes part of a genetic identity as well, its a process.

DMXX
11-09-2017, 04:40 PM
I think you might be the administrator. This guy called Monkey quoted you and I told him that wherever DMXX says cannot be right. Thats all. If you are going to bann me for just having different opinion you are free to go.

That's... Not how we do things around here:



3.1 Anthrogenica ardently supports the reasonable exercise of freedom of speech. Forms of expression considered unreasonable are detailed in Sections 3.2-3.12 below. No censorship of an individual's ethnic, political, religious, sexual or ideological expression will therefore be taken by the administration/moderation provided the expression in question is not found to be in violation of the rules. Additionally, discriminatory language including (but not limited to) sexism, racism or other forms of bigotry are not tolerated.


This isn't a dictatorship, friend!

The name-drop in a topic regarding Chitralis (when I've been absent from the tangent) seemed strange and I've highlighted the source of the apparent confusion. I was discussing something quite different. Words on a screen. It happens to everyone.

May the conversation continue in earnest.

jesus
11-09-2017, 04:42 PM
Who has adopted Pashtoonwali?? Never seen a Chitrali or Kalash being Pashtoonified. However many Pashtoons in Chitral have Chitralized. I am not talking about Iranian languages. Here we are discussing genetics.

Pashtuns conquered/migrated to former dardic lands. Babur mentioned countless dardic groups Around/east of Kabul. Most of them are either Pashtu or Persian speaking nowadays.

There is a reason why the kalash are low in numbers. It's theorized that they had a much larger population 300-500 years. Chitral itself is probably one of the last proper dardic stronghold(geography helped a lot). Many nuristanis lost their culture/traditions/language due to Pashtun conquests in the 1900s-1800s.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 04:48 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Why you're personalizing a discussion tangent I'm not even participating in isn't clear. None of my posts in this thread discuss Chitrali genetics. In fact, I don't remember commenting on Chitralis in well over two years.

Would you like to explain this comment? Unless you thought I was the author of that spreadsheet (I'm not)?


I'm asking you. Please explain your choice of words.

Unless you're insinuating Monkey somehow obtained control of your account to make a rather meaningless throwaway comment.

[Edit]: I see the post you're referring to now. Monkey's paraphrasing a comment I made recently, where it looked like Jatts are ASI-shifted Pamiri Tajiks, much the same way Uyghurs appear to be E. Eurasian-shifted Pamiri Tajiks. I didn't comment on Chitralis. That's Monkey's impression. The progression in his post is clear on that.


Many have. Pashtunification is a long process, its an amalgamation of adaptation to language, people, culture etc. Not just Pashtunfied a person can be persianified blah fied etc. It is not an overnight process!

If you mean by speaking Pashto someones becomes Pushtinified. Then most Chitralis are. Pashtoon is the langua franca of KPK and we have to learn it. Then we also speak urdu and English which are our national language and international language. Till 1969 When Chitral was a state Persian was the official language and the 2nd language for Chitralis.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 04:53 PM
Chitralis don't have Indic ancestry. Its even hilarious to say that. Its like saying Chitralis have European ancestory just because Chitralis have some european genes. Chitralis are the denizens of the valleys of Chitral and as far as I remember was never part of greater India except the British. You can correct me if I am wrong. I don't know on what grounds you are saying that Chitralis have Indic ancestry. I don't know about Pashtoons but one thing I know that we are not Pashtoons and are different people.

If by Chitrali, you mean Kho and Kalash ,they are Indic as in Indo Aryan derived. Dardic and Nuristani like groups have been in that region since the Bronze Age. Honestly I think Chitral people are more culturally similar with Shinas and Kohistani .

pegasus
11-09-2017, 04:56 PM
Pashtuns conquered/migrated to former dardic lands. Babur mentioned countless dardic groups Around/east of Kabul. Most of them are either Pashtu or Persian speaking nowadays.

There is a reason why the kalash are low in numbers. It's theorized that they had a much larger population 300-500 years. Chitral itself is probably one of the last proper dardic stronghold(geography helped a lot). Many nuristanis lost their culture/traditions/language due to Pashtun conquests in the 1900s-1800s.

Pretty much thats what happened, the areas were Pashtunized and later Persianized, but areas like Nangarhar, Laghman and Kunar are VERY Pashtun like culturally, of the regions in the country they have the least Persian influence, besides Nuristan. They have a more tribal culture with a shot of contemporary influence coming from Pakistan.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 04:59 PM
@Khana or others should post the Pamiri/Jatt/etc average for punt for K13 to settle this debate.


لا حول ولاقوة إلا بالله

You guys are going to make me work aren't ya? Ok give me a few minutes to scrounge around.

jesus
11-09-2017, 05:02 PM
Some results from MDLP K16. Ironically the Pashtuns from SE Afghanistan are closer to Persian speakers compared to the Panjshiri sample. So language isn't everything. It's theorized that Some Panjshiris might be Indo Aryan or dardic in origin.

Kandahar Popalzai/Alakozai Pashtun

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 4.77
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.08
3 Iranian (Bandari) 9.89
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.51
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.74
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 11.2
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.3
8 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 12.46
9 Shugnan (Badachshan) 12.76
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.12
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.26
12 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.54
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.69
14 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.7
15 Jatt (Haryana) 15.13
16 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.49
17 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.68
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 15.75
19 Roma (Gypsy) 16.14
20 Jew (Mumbai) 16.17


Barakzai Pashtun from N afghanistan originally from Kandahar

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 6.66
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.99
3 Iranian (Bandari) 10.66
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.83
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.64
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 12.72
8 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.1
9 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 13.55
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.8
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.39
12 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.43
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 14.8
14 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.03
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.23
16 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.53
17 Jatt (Haryana) 15.66
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 16.21
19 Pathan (Punjab) 16.48
20 Jew (Mumbai) 17.19


Ahamdzai Ghilzai Pashtun (originally from Paktia I think)



Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 5.55
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 5.61
3 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.48
4 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 9.33
5 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 10.28
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.76
7 Shugnan (Badachshan) 11.13
8 Jatt (Haryana) 11.54
9 Iranian (Bandari) 12.18
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.13
11 Pathan (Punjab) 13.28
12 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.31
13 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.5
14 Jew (Mumbai) 13.68
15 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.76
16 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.9
17 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 14.47
18 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 14.63
19 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.74
20 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.86


Panjshiri Tajik PERSIAN speaker, but the Pashtuns are closer to Persian speakers from Iran and Tajikistan


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.33
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 7.44
3 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.81
4 Jatt (Haryana) 9.92
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.49
6 Pathan (Punjab) 11.69
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.83
8 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 12.67
9 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.8
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.03
11 Jew (Mumbai) 14.07
12 Jatt (Pahari) 14.08
13 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.2
14 Makrani (Pakistan) 14.23
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.42
16 Iranian (Bandari) 14.58
17 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.97
18 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.99
19 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.04
20 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 15.07

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 05:04 PM
Some results from MDLP K16. Ironically the Pashtuns from SE Afghanistan are closer to Persian speakers compared to the Panjshiri sample. So language isn't everything. It's theorized that Some Panjshiris might be Indo Aryan or dardic in origin.

Kandahar Popalzai/Alakozai Pashtun

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 4.77
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.08
3 Iranian (Bandari) 9.89
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.51
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.74
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 11.2
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.3
8 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 12.46
9 Shugnan (Badachshan) 12.76
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.12
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.26
12 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.54
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.69
14 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.7
15 Jatt (Haryana) 15.13
16 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.49
17 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.68
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 15.75
19 Roma (Gypsy) 16.14
20 Jew (Mumbai) 16.17


Barakzai Pashtun from N afghanistan originally from Kandahar

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 6.66
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.99
3 Iranian (Bandari) 10.66
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.83
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.64
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 12.72
8 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.1
9 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 13.55
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.8
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.39
12 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.43
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 14.8
14 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.03
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.23
16 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.53
17 Jatt (Haryana) 15.66
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 16.21
19 Pathan (Punjab) 16.48
20 Jew (Mumbai) 17.19


Ahamdzai Ghilzai Pashtun (originally from Paktia I think)



Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 5.55
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 5.61
3 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.48
4 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 9.33
5 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 10.28
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.76
7 Shugnan (Badachshan) 11.13
8 Jatt (Haryana) 11.54
9 Iranian (Bandari) 12.18
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.13
11 Pathan (Punjab) 13.28
12 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.31
13 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.5
14 Jew (Mumbai) 13.68
15 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.76
16 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.9
17 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 14.47
18 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 14.63
19 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.74
20 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.86


Panjshiri Tajik PERSIAN speaker, but the Pashtuns are closer to Persian speakers from Iran and Tajikistan


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.33
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 7.44
3 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.81
4 Jatt (Haryana) 9.92
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.49
6 Pathan (Punjab) 11.69
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.83
8 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 12.67
9 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.8
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.03
11 Jew (Mumbai) 14.07
12 Jatt (Pahari) 14.08
13 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.2
14 Makrani (Pakistan) 14.23
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.42
16 Iranian (Bandari) 14.58
17 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.97
18 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.99
19 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.04
20 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 15.07

Even if you look at oracles, Jatt haryana shows up along with Iranian populations a little down on list, that was my point, no other SA population shows up.

jesus
11-09-2017, 05:05 PM
لا حول ولاقوة إلا بالله

You guys are going to make me work aren't ya? Ok give me a few minutes to scrounge around.



Hahahaha man, you don't have to. It's totally fine.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 05:14 PM
IMO indic ancestry of Pakistani Pashtuns is Chitrali like


I think I should have explained myself better , when People say Pakistani Pashtuns are Pashtunized Indic/dardics than its Pashtunization of some Hindukush stock people who were not Pashtun before.


Why you're personalizing a discussion tangent I'm not even participating in isn't clear. None of my posts in this thread discuss Chitrali genetics. In fact, I don't remember commenting on Chitralis in well over two years.

Would you like to explain this comment? Unless you thought I was the author of that spreadsheet (I'm not)?


I'm asking you. Please explain your choice of words.

Unless you're insinuating Monkey somehow obtained control of your account to make a rather meaningless throwaway comment.

[Edit]: I see the post you're referring to now. Monkey's paraphrasing a comment I made recently, where it looked like Jatts are ASI-shifted Pamiri Tajiks, much the same way Uyghurs appear to be E. Eurasian-shifted Pamiri Tajiks. I didn't comment on Chitralis. That's Monkey's impression. The progression in his post is clear on that.


Pashtuns conquered/migrated to former dardic lands. Babur mentioned countless dardic groups Around/east of Kabul. Most of them are either Pashtu or Persian speaking nowadays.

There is a reason why the kalash are low in numbers. It's theorized that they had a much larger population 300-500 years. Chitral itself is probably one of the last proper dardic stronghold(geography helped a lot). Many nuristanis lost their culture/traditions/language due to Pashtun conquests in the 1900s-1800s.


Pretty much thats what happened, the areas were Pashtunized and later Persianized

I don't know Pashtoons came to Chitral after Chitral became a part of British India as merchants. Before that even parts of Afghanistan were part of Chitral. All those were lost because of the Bristish. The Khow were inhabitants of three valleys of Mulkhow, Torkhow and Lotkhow were ruling lower Chitral, Nooristan, Kunar, northern Swat and eastern parts of Gilgit. We had occupied these territories from Pashtoons and other dards for hundred of years. May be some Dardics were Pashtoonified or Indianized but they are not Khows. They might ne Kalash, Nooristanis or Pashais or Kohistanis.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 05:15 PM
Some results from MDLP K16. Ironically the Pashtuns from SE Afghanistan are closer to Persian speakers compared to the Panjshiri sample. So language isn't everything. It's theorized that Some Panjshiris might be Indo Aryan or dardic in origin.

Kandahar Popalzai/Alakozai Pashtun

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 4.77
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.08
3 Iranian (Bandari) 9.89
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.51
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.74
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 11.2
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.3
8 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 12.46
9 Shugnan (Badachshan) 12.76
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.12
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.26
12 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.54
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.69
14 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.7
15 Jatt (Haryana) 15.13
16 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.49
17 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.68
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 15.75
19 Roma (Gypsy) 16.14
20 Jew (Mumbai) 16.17


Barakzai Pashtun from N afghanistan originally from Kandahar

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afganistan) 6.66
2 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.99
3 Iranian (Bandari) 10.66
4 Pashtun (Pakistan) 10.83
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.64
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 12.72
8 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.1
9 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 13.55
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.8
11 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.39
12 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.43
13 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 14.8
14 Balochi (Baluchistan) 15.03
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 15.23
16 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.53
17 Jatt (Haryana) 15.66
18 Iran_Mazandrani (Mazandrani) 16.21
19 Pathan (Punjab) 16.48
20 Jew (Mumbai) 17.19


Ahamdzai Ghilzai Pashtun (originally from Paktia I think)



Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 5.55
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 5.61
3 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.48
4 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 9.33
5 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 10.28
6 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.76
7 Shugnan (Badachshan) 11.13
8 Jatt (Haryana) 11.54
9 Iranian (Bandari) 12.18
10 Tajik (Tajikistan) 13.13
11 Pathan (Punjab) 13.28
12 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 13.31
13 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 13.5
14 Jew (Mumbai) 13.68
15 Makrani (Pakistan) 13.76
16 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 13.9
17 Yaghnobi (Zarafshan¬ ) 14.47
18 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 14.63
19 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.74
20 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.86


Panjshiri Tajik PERSIAN speaker, but the Pashtuns are closer to Persian speakers from Iran and Tajikistan


Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pashtun (Pakistan) 7.33
2 Pashtun (Afganistan) 7.44
3 Pashtun (Afghanistan) 7.81
4 Jatt (Haryana) 9.92
5 Ishkasim (Gorno-Badakhshan) 10.49
6 Pathan (Punjab) 11.69
7 Tajik (Pomiri_Tajikistan) 11.83
8 Kashmiri_Pandit (Kashmir) 12.67
9 Rushanvanch (Gorno-Badakhshan) 12.8
10 Shugnan (Badachshan) 13.03
11 Jew (Mumbai) 14.07
12 Jatt (Pahari) 14.08
13 Balochi (Baluchistan) 14.2
14 Makrani (Pakistan) 14.23
15 Brahui (Baluchistan) 14.42
16 Iranian (Bandari) 14.58
17 Uzbek (Afghanistan) 14.97
18 Tajik (Tajikistan) 14.99
19 Tajik (Lowland_Tajikistan) 15.04
20 Tajiks (Afghanistan) 15.07

Southern Pashtuns have a good dose of Iran_Chl which is why they are clustering with that Bandari , who are Iran_N but with a good amount of Iran_Chl as well. As soon as you start using Pashtuns from Kabul and eastwards , you start to see Punjabis and Sindhis show up higher in their oracles, which makes sense and fits in with the fact these areas were originally populated by Indo Aryan Dards. Velvet and Barnacle come to mind.

By contemporary Indo Aryan I mean mainly Iran_N/Hotu + Yamnaya EBA Steppe signature

pegasus
11-09-2017, 05:30 PM
لا حول ولاقوة إلا بالله

You guys are going to make me work aren't ya? Ok give me a few minutes to scrounge around.


I was trying to find it, can you also post results for regular Afghan Tajiks as well Pamiris in PuntDNA.

kakiasumi
11-09-2017, 05:41 PM
You guys are going to make me work aren't ya? Ok give me a few minutes to scrounge around.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT][/QUOTE]

Khana could you please post PUNT DNAL matches for Chitralis. Given the circumstances I might be expecting more from you.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 05:51 PM
Have fun, Khawatein e Hazaraat! I think I got enough groupings of interest here. ** I should have divided the Pashtuns into groupings too, but since most are HGDP I was like meh. I took out ALL outliers for each group. So no Sheedi-mix in Sindhi average and no E Asian outliers in Pashtun. Saraiki is mixed with my family and just 2-3 other people. So take that average with a grain of salt. Rajasthani only has 2 people. The Khatris are overwhelmingly Kapoors. The Brahmins are all Northern/Central as far as I know, but may not be. Tajikistani is only based on 4-5 samples. There are 19-20 total, however, they are from an older study and crap SNP overlap, so I can't use them on admixture calculators. Kho average doesn't include my Grandmother or her Brother. Punjabi averages do not include MonkeyDLuffy, Sapporo, or any known Arain, Rajput, or Gujjar. Pashtun averages don't include Kandahari. Sindhi averages don't include heksindhi. Brahmin averages don't include Parasar.



PopID
West_Asia
NE_Europe
Americas
Siberia
Oceania
South_Asia
NE_Asia
East_Africa
SE_Asia
SW_Europe
SW_Asia
West_Africa
South_Africa


TAJIK YAGNOBI AVERAGE
39.06
23.12
1.79
4.45
0.39
9.16
1.73
0.49
0.16
13.38
5.58
0.47
0.24


TAJIK RUSHAN AVERAGE
36.14
25.97
2.48
4.61
0.25
13.47
1.29
0.59
0.52
11.26
2.55
0.52
0.35


TAJIK SHUGNAN AVERAGE
36.11
25.46
2.85
4.49
0.27
14.14
2.18
0.73
0.23
10.01
2.45
0.57
0.50


TAJIK ISHKASHIM AVERAGE
36.51
23.32
2.34
4.66
0.75
17.53
2.65
0.50
0.66
8.40
1.77
0.46
0.44


TAJIKISTANI AVERAGE
34.87
17.74
2.44
6.51
0.63
10.57
7.84
0.96
0.65
12.21
4.85
0.56
0.18


NURISTANI
46.56
17.86
1.97
2.37
0.00
25.31
0.00
0.00
0.00
3.13
1.38
1.42
0.00


CHITRALI KHO AVERAGE
38.53
19.94
2.52
4.23
0.50
22.90
2.24
0.42
0.42
6.26
1.50
0.28
0.25


CHITRALI "KALASH-LIKE" AVERAGE
46.04
17.08
1.61
2.52
0.13
25.88
0.53
0.19
0.47
2.52
1.78
1.07
0.17


CHITRALI "PASHTUN-LIKE" AVERAGE
42.82
12.56
1.20
1.83
1.17
32.77
0.08
0.73
0.83
3.58
1.73
0.19
0.51


ORMURI - [Burki]
43.07
18.06
0.88
1.93
1.38
18.57
0.00
0.20
1.02
9.06
3.78
2.04
0.00


PASHTUN AVERAGE
41.93
14.67
1.62
2.40
0.47
28.75
0.83
0.53
0.71
4.78
2.46
0.57
0.27


BURUSHO AVERAGE
39.59
13.89
1.81
4.16
0.73
29.77
6.62
0.75
0.54
1.04
0.45
0.42
0.22


PUNJAB N - PAHARI AVERAGE
41.45
11.52
1.19
1.28
0.80
36.79
0.25
0.71
0.97
1.65
2.62
0.66
0.13


PUNJAB E - JATT AVERAGE
37.92
16.14
2.10
1.57
1.06
33.26
0.17
0.58
0.52
4.88
0.88
0.76
0.16


PUNJAB W - JATT AVERAGE
36.88
13.26
1.23
2.19
0.97
38.37
0.27
0.44
0.77
3.23
1.39
0.66
0.33


PUNJAB E - KHATRI AVERAGE
38.89
13.78
1.81
1.99
0.85
34.93
0.63
0.23
0.33
4.27
1.62
0.21
0.45


PJL - A AVERAGE
39.35
12.20
1.48
1.73
0.61
36.89
0.64
0.40
0.52
3.20
1.92
0.67
0.39


PJL - B AVERAGE
34.79
10.39
1.20
1.78
0.92
43.66
0.99
0.36
1.14
2.46
1.36
0.53
0.43


PJL - C AVERAGE
30.05
7.24
0.95
1.27
1.81
50.44
1.87
0.32
1.64
1.98
1.41
0.72
0.32


PJL - D AVERAGE
27.31
6.12
0.96
1.18
1.81
55.47
1.80
0.50
2.24
1.18
0.78
0.37
0.28


BRAHMIN AVERAGE
32.44
12.69
1.10
1.31
1.31
43.65
0.91
0.55
1.48
3.30
0.51
0.28
0.49


KSHATRIYA AVERAGE
31.55
10.73
1.21
1.28
0.71
50.01
0.13
0.53
1.33
1.78
0.06
0.32
0.35


PUNJAB S - SARAIKI AVERAGE
39.47
12.49
1.22
2.12
0.99
33.39
1.44
0.65
0.24
3.71
3.01
0.91
0.35


SINDHI AVERAGE
43.40
10.35
1.26
1.16
0.58
36.55
0.24
0.78
0.37
1.65
1.60
1.56
0.48


KHOJA/LOHANA/MEMON AVERAGE
41.62
13.11
1.32
1.69
0.64
33.82
0.87
0.39
0.39
2.66
2.50
0.65
0.33


RAJASTHANI AVERAGE
31.35
6.94
0.75
0.07
0.82
54.52
1.42
0.18
2.89
0.48
0.04
0.05
0.51

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 06:16 PM
I was trying to find it, can you also post results for regular Afghan Tajiks as well Pamiris in PuntDNA.

I haven't extracted the Afghan Tajiks yet from the study. As far as individual Afghan samples I have that are Tajik, I haven't yet sorted through to figure out who is who. Rukha told me I mixed a few people up when I added them in the HarappaWorld spreadsheet. I'll have to organize and label them correctly. I'm going to need his help again to do that.

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 06:17 PM
That was not the point, point was he was making assumptions about people without any evidence, also said member is banned

Still, Rawalpindi people (or around there) were not who he was talking about in that reference.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 06:23 PM
Here are Punt's averages for the Afghan groups and Tajik:



PopID
West_Asia
NE_Europe
Americas
Siberia
Oceania
South_Asia
NE_Asia
East_Africa
SE_Asia
SW_Europe
SW_Asia
West_Africa
South_Africa


Afghan_Hazara
23
11.5
2.5
20.5
0
8
25
0
1
5.5
3
0
0


Afghan_Pashtun
42
17
1.5
3
0.5
21.5
1
0
1
8.5
4
0
0


Afghan_Uzbeki
32
16
2
10
0
13
13.5
0
0.5
9
4
0
0


Tadjik
36.5
20
2
7
1
13.5
4.5
0
1
11
3.5
0
0





Here is Punjabi Arain average and some people who I think are Afghan Tajiks + Average:



PopID
West_Asia
NE_Europe
Americas
Siberia
Oceania
South_Asia
NE_Asia
East_Africa
SE_Asia
SW_Europe
SW_Asia
West_Africa
South_Africa


PAKISTAN; PUNJAB - ARAIN
42.69
10.61
1.75
1.74
0.56
32.90
1.19
0.79
0.24
3.85
3.41
0.20
0.09


















Afghan - Ghazizadeh - U62
36.27
12.91
1.81
5.64
0.44
24.81
6.16
0.00
0.40
6.98
3.15
1.22
0.17


Afghan - Gereshk, Helmand - Naqwi
38.12
12.04
0.96
5.54
0.23
18.36
6.06
1.99
0.00
8.79
6.46
1.45
0.00


Afghan - Ayubi - U61
42.98
17.84
1.07
2.48
0.13
20.21
2.37
0.31
0.00
5.57
5.55
1.48
0.00


Afghan - Shah Syed
42.20
13.55
1.86
5.10
0.08
21.94
1.24
0.40
1.27
7.92
3.22
1.21
0.00


Afghan - Ahmedi
37.55
13.58
2.05
1.86
0.90
28.06
4.39
1.77
0.00
5.37
3.96
0.00
0.52


Afghan - Motahedi
41.25
17.64
1.78
2.79
0.79
19.46
1.45
0.00
0.00
8.15
4.86
1.83
0.00


AFGHANISTAN; TAJIK
39.73
14.59
1.59
3.90
0.43
22.14
3.61
0.75
0.28
7.13
4.53
1.20
0.12

pegasus
11-09-2017, 06:38 PM
Still, Rawalpindi people (or around there) were not who he was talking about in that reference.

Are you his lawyer ?

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 06:42 PM
I was trying to find it, can you also post results for regular Afghan Tajiks as well Pamiris in PuntDNA.

All my spreadsheets are all over the place, I have a hard time finding them, myself. I'm consolidating them all into one spreadsheet with consistent labeling throughout. Check back when I have grandkids LOL.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 06:46 PM
Khana do you have Rajasthani jats and Haryana jats samples? Mcninja had them.

pegasus
11-09-2017, 06:51 PM
Is Motahedi from Herat? Thats a VERY Iranian surname. Where is the Ahmedi sample from? Looks a lot like an Eastern Pashtun. For comparison here are Velvet's results he sent me ( 3/4 Pashtun 1/4 Tajik)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asia 42.22
2 South_Asia 27.28
3 NE_Europe 14.72
4 SW_Europe 5.66
5 SW_Asia 3.71
6 Americas 2.19
7 Siberia 2.02
8 Oceania 0.89
9 SE_Asia 0.73
10 South_Africa 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pakistan_Pashtun 3.92
2 Pathan 4.4
3 Afghan_Pashtun 6.46
4 Balochi 7.67
5 Sindhi 8.93
6 Makrani 9.02
7 Brahui 9.15
8 Burusho 9.96
9 Punjabi 10.97
10 Kashmir_Pandit 11.86
11 Tadjik 16.45
12 Afghan_Uzbeki 21.97
13 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin 24.28
14 Iranian 24.42
15 Romani 25.96
16 Dagestan_Azeri 26.03
17 Kumyk 26.94
18 Bengali 27.47
19 Chechen 27.53
20 Kurdish 27.67

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 06:53 PM
Khana do you have Rajasthani jats and Haryana jats samples? Mcninja had them.

No, a few kits were listed in his spreadsheets, but it seems all the Haryana Jatt kits were deleted or now private? I've searched all over. If you find them let me know. I mean, the raw data is coming from somewhere since so many calculators have an average for them. I wonder how many people the average is based on? I'm not even sure Haryana Jatts were in a study. Did Razib Khan mention them? If so, they should be in his PLINK files.

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 06:59 PM
No, a few kits were listed in his spreadsheets, but it seems all the Haryana Jatt kits were deleted or now private? I've searched all over. If you find them let me know. I mean, the raw data is coming from somewhere since so many calculators have an average for them. I wonder how many people the average is based on? I'm not even sure Haryana Jatts were in a study. Did Razib Khan mention them? If so, they should be in his PLINK files.

I had 5 haryana jatts as my matches on Gedmatch, all of them are gone, which is bizzare.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 07:00 PM
Is Motahedi from Herat? Thats a VERY Iranian surname. Where is the Ahmedi sample from? Looks a lot like an Eastern Pashtun. For comparison here are Velvet's results he sent me ( 3/4 Pashtun 1/4 Tajik)

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Asia 42.22
2 South_Asia 27.28
3 NE_Europe 14.72
4 SW_Europe 5.66
5 SW_Asia 3.71
6 Americas 2.19
7 Siberia 2.02
8 Oceania 0.89
9 SE_Asia 0.73
10 South_Africa 0.58

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Pakistan_Pashtun 3.92
2 Pathan 4.4
3 Afghan_Pashtun 6.46
4 Balochi 7.67
5 Sindhi 8.93
6 Makrani 9.02
7 Brahui 9.15
8 Burusho 9.96
9 Punjabi 10.97
10 Kashmir_Pandit 11.86
11 Tadjik 16.45
12 Afghan_Uzbeki 21.97
13 Tamil_Nadu_Brahmin 24.28
14 Iranian 24.42
15 Romani 25.96
16 Dagestan_Azeri 26.03
17 Kumyk 26.94
18 Bengali 27.47
19 Chechen 27.53
20 Kurdish 27.67


I wrote Kabul for both of them, and since I haven't labeled many Afghans locations, I must have had some reason to do so -- it was a long time ago. Again, some are mix-ups. Like I'm pretty sure Khorshidzada and Shetab are the same person.



AFGHANISTAN

AFG - [Korshidzada]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - [Shetab]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - [Yousefzada]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - ⅞ Qizilbash| ⅛ Iranian


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Pashtun [Achakzai]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Pashtun [Barak]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Pashtun [Barakzai]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Pashtun [Mohammadzai]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Pashtun/Tajik


AFGHANISTAN
KABUL
Kabul
AFG - Tajik [Ahmedi]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Tajik [Ghazizadeh]


AFGHANISTAN
KABUL
Kabul
AFG - Tajik [Motahedi]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG - Tajik [Shah-Syed]


AFGHANISTAN

AFG, LAGHMAN - Pashtun/Tajik


AFGHANISTAN

AFG; - Pashtun [Amarkhel]


AFGHANISTAN
HELMAND
Gereshk
AFG; HELMAND, Gereshk - Tajik [Naqwi]


AFGHANISTAN
LOGAR

AFG; KABUL/LOGAR - [Sahak/Ahmadzai]


AFGHANISTAN
KANDAHAR
Kandahar
AFG; KANDAHAR - Pashtun [Ayubi]


AFGHANISTAN
KUNDUZ
Mazar-e-Sharif
AFG; KUNDUZ - Pashtun [Mohmand]

wgjkkwjkf
11-09-2017, 07:07 PM
Are you his lawyer ?

Yes I am his lawyer. Next question?

jesus
11-09-2017, 07:29 PM
Thanks dakter Khana. I'm always facinated by the Ormuri Pashtuns. They're quite different from their immediate neighbors. They look like they're transplants from Kandahar or some place nearby.

Same thing applies to Ishkashimi and Shuganani Pamiris. Yagnobis are probably are closest descendants of ancient Sogdisns with a possible heavy dose of Saka/Kushan admix.

Our beloved and great leader comrade DMXX(may the ancient Kassite gods bless him) mentioned an important fact about Uyghurs. Many Uyghurs get 50% Pamiri (Ishkashim, shugnan and Rushan) + East Mongol. This pretty much implies that the khotanese Sakas were prerrty similar to modern Pamiris(and many Afghan Pashtuns). This makes me wonder, are those groups are Khotanese/Kushan transplants (largely) or it's just a generic east iranic similarity? We can only answer this with Bronze and Iron Age genomes from the region(but it's fun to come up with theories).

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 07:34 PM
Thanks dakter Khana. I'm always facinated by the Ormuri Pashtuns. They're quite different from their immediate neighbors. They look like they're transplants from Kandahar or some place nearby.

Same thing applies to Ishkashimi and Shuganani Pamiris. Yagnobis are probably are closest descendants of ancient Sogdisns with a possible heavy dose of Saka/Kushan admix.

Our beloved and great leader comrade DMXX(may the ancient Kassite gods bless him) mentioned an important fact about Uyghurs. Many Uyghurs get 50% Pamiri (Ishkashim, shugnan and Rushan) + East Mongol. This pretty much implies that the khotanese Sakas were prerrty similar to modern Pamiris(and many Afghan Pashtuns). This makes me wonder, are those groups are Khotanese/Kushan transplants (largely) or it's just a generic east iranic similarity? We can only answer this with Bronze and Iron Age genomes from the region(but it's fun to come up with theories).

Since you mentioned them:



PopID
West_Asia
NE_Europe
Americas
Siberia
Oceania
South_Asia
NE_Asia
East_Africa
SE_Asia
SW_Europe
SW_Asia
West_Africa
South_Africa


UYGHUR_HGDP01297
24.42
13.81
2.17
15.36
0.37
6.65
25.90
0.66
2.29
6.64
1.05
0.67
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01298
23.58
17.25
1.21
15.27
0.75
7.65
24.65
0.00
0.00
6.28
2.31
1.06
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01299
20.86
13.91
2.73
16.11
0.00
8.38
27.60
0.00
3.24
5.99
1.18
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01300
23.72
12.93
3.15
18.15
0.67
7.15
23.94
0.65
1.43
6.24
1.93
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01301
18.24
14.93
2.91
17.11
0.24
8.61
26.97
0.83
1.89
5.43
2.10
0.74
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01302
15.85
10.06
1.97
30.34
0.55
5.01
28.42
0.00
1.68
4.52
1.60
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01303
22.52
14.60
1.87
14.21
1.59
7.90
25.13
0.52
2.10
6.37
2.77
0.00
0.42


UYGHUR_HGDP01304
19.67
8.71
2.00
18.77
0.00
5.51
34.29
0.46
0.77
7.10
2.43
0.00
0.29


UYGHUR_HGDP01305
17.32
11.55
1.97
22.28
0.16
5.89
30.81
1.33
0.93
4.52
3.25
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01306
18.8
12.98
2.15
16.64
0.86
6.68
29.29
1.89
1.89
7.79
1.02
0
0


UYGHUR AVERAGE
20.50
13.07
2.21
18.42
0.52
6.94
27.70
0.63
1.62
6.09
1.96
0.25
0.07

jesus
11-09-2017, 07:37 PM
Since you mentioned them:



PopID
West_Asia
NE_Europe
Americas
Siberia
Oceania
South_Asia
NE_Asia
East_Africa
SE_Asia
SW_Europe
SW_Asia
West_Africa
South_Africa


UYGHUR_HGDP01297
24.42
13.81
2.17
15.36
0.37
6.65
25.90
0.66
2.29
6.64
1.05
0.67
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01298
23.58
17.25
1.21
15.27
0.75
7.65
24.65
0.00
0.00
6.28
2.31
1.06
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01299
20.86
13.91
2.73
16.11
0.00
8.38
27.60
0.00
3.24
5.99
1.18
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01300
23.72
12.93
3.15
18.15
0.67
7.15
23.94
0.65
1.43
6.24
1.93
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01301
18.24
14.93
2.91
17.11
0.24
8.61
26.97
0.83
1.89
5.43
2.10
0.74
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01302
15.85
10.06
1.97
30.34
0.55
5.01
28.42
0.00
1.68
4.52
1.60
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01303
22.52
14.60
1.87
14.21
1.59
7.90
25.13
0.52
2.10
6.37
2.77
0.00
0.42


UYGHUR_HGDP01304
19.67
8.71
2.00
18.77
0.00
5.51
34.29
0.46
0.77
7.10
2.43
0.00
0.29


UYGHUR_HGDP01305
17.32
11.55
1.97
22.28
0.16
5.89
30.81
1.33
0.93
4.52
3.25
0.00
0


UYGHUR_HGDP01306
18.8
12.98
2.15
16.64
0.86
6.68
29.29
1.89
1.89
7.79
1.02
0
0


UYGHUR AVERAGE
20.50
13.07
2.21
18.42
0.52
6.94
27.70
0.63
1.62
6.09
1.96
0.25
0.07



Off topic: they have great food, everyone should try it. It's usually labeled as " Chinese Halal" food. Thanks for your work Khana! You're applying your Kayastha genes in a great way for us Anthro nerds.

khanabadoshi
11-09-2017, 07:40 PM
Off topic: they have great food, everyone should try it. It's usually labeled as " Chinese Halal" food. Thanks for your work Khana! You're applying your Kayastha genes in a great way for us Anthro nerds.

I went to one in Cali ... I've never forgotten that meal. It was so good. The duck, and they had this kinda paratha thing.

surbakhunWeesste
11-09-2017, 08:03 PM
Uygur cuisine is sort of similar to UzbekI and Tibetan food, at least to me. The Tibetan Muslims have similar culture to the Uygurs as well.

FREE TIBET

MonkeyDLuffy
11-09-2017, 08:10 PM
Uygur cuisine is sort of similar to UzbekI and Tibetan food, at least to me. The Tibetan Muslims have similar culture to the Uygurs as well.

FREE TIBET

Growing up in Chandigarh we have big Tibet refugee population, and the whole Sector 15 is Tibet colony, we used to go there to eat Momos and Thukpa ever freakin day after school. Now I'm craving some Tibetan food lol